The Influence of Alydar

re: The Influence of Alydar

Gavin — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 10:07:47 GMT

I thought it would be best to explain a little bit about the pedigree so people could get a better idea of it and give their opinions from what the facts of the pedigree says! My filly is called tomintoul magic, she was 2nd in a English maiden, she never got the chance to show her true colours on the track as she was being used as a work horse for a filly that won a 1000 guineas trail and it blew her head! Tomintoul magic is by a son of danehill in holy roman emperor, her 1st dam is trios graces by alysheba and her 2nd dam is champion 2yr old ancient regime by olden times. Trios graces has bred 2 European listed winners in flat spin( by a Nureyev son spinning world) and abbeyside (by a danehill son danehill dancer) and she has a Galileo daughter that produced a holy roman emperor filly called smashing to win the listed India oaks and 2 other listed races in India. Ancient regime her 2nd dam, produced 6 winners, 4 of them listed and group winners, rami by riverman, crack regiment by el gran señor, filly la grande époque by lyphard and dancing maestro by Nureyev. I hope this can give an idea of how the pedigree works and I can get some usefully opinions on this! As I said had a son of Nureyev out of a alydar mare called peintre célèbre I mind for this filly! Thanks

re: The Influence of Alydar

Gavin — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 00:14:51 GMT

I have just bought a filly to use as a foundation mare and she is by holy roman emperor out of a mare by alysheba. I'm based in England and was looking for a stallion with alydar breeding and wanted a few opinions on using him with my filly next year. His is peintre célèbre ? Any opinions on this cross will be appreciated! Thanks

re: The Influence of Alydar

Sandcreek — Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:58:03 GMT

Every comment here is beneficial to a newby to the industry (one mare so far).

For one thing, I'd love to be in a room with Ian, Alan and Sceptre for about 8 hours. Somehow I think that would turn into 8 days, but that's OK for one who spent four months picking pedigrees, records and potential apart prior to writing a check.

I love these blogs~!

re: The Influence of Alydar

Powys — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:31:09 GMT

Late to the conversation, but I thought it might be interesting to add this. I have a Wheaton mare I plan to breed this spring. I've been on the fence for a few years about her because she didn't do anything in her 6 starts, but once I got her glued back together and galloping well for fox hunting I found that she could gallop all day and was pretty quick. She could also jump anything. So if I don't get a racehorse I may get a steeplechaser. I'll be back in a few years to let you know what happens.

re: The Influence of Alydar

John — Tue, 07 Jun 2011 02:19:26 GMT

Thanks. I wish that I had a bundle of money on Rousing Sermon because he went off about 6 to 1. However, I am glad that he won. I hope that he stays healthy and has a nice career. I should enjoy following it.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Ian Tapp — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:56:45 GMT

Nice win, John!

re: The Influence of Alydar

John — Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:52:16 GMT

A colt named Rousing Sermon makes his first start tomorrow at Hollywood Park in a 2YO MSW for Cal breds.

Rousing Sermon's pedigree seems interesting to me. He is by Lucky Pulpit. I know that his value would be more, as far as sales are concerned, if he was by Pulpit instead of his son, Lucky Pulpit. However, I like his pedigree anyway.

Lucky Pulpit's BM sire is Cozzene (by Caro), and his dam line is the same dam line that Unbridled's Song came from.

Rousing Sermon's BM sire is Awesome Again, who has done pretty well as a stallion, so that should not hurt. The sire of his second dam is Alydar. After reading this article and thread, I feel confident that having Alydar as Rousing Sermon's second damsire is definitely a good thing.

Rousing Sermon's third damsire is Wajima, a very good racehorse and son of Bold Ruler. Wajima didn't do particularly well at stud, but I believe that there is some good stuff in his pedigree. Fourth damsire is Barbizon, a son of Native Dancer's sire, Polynesian. I think that Barbizon was a good sire.

I like Rousing Sermon's dam line. They are good producers right up to Rousing Sermon's dam, Rousing Again, who has only produced a couple of horses so far, including Rousing Sermon, as far as I know. A couple of the mares on the dam line were good race horses.

Also, Rousing Sermon is inbred to Mr. Prospector 4x5. This is nothing strange with so many horses with Mr. Prospector in their pedigrees. Alydar is kind of like a brother to Mr. Prospector (same sire (Raise A Native) and same grand broodmare sire (Nasrullah)). Not sure what it means, having Mr. Prospector (twice) as well as Alydar in the same pedigree, but my guess is that it is a good thing.

So, everything looks good to me, pedigree wise. Now it is just a question of what Rousing Sermon can do at the racetrack. We may find out some answers to that tomorrow at Hollywood Park.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Suzanne — Thu, 30 Dec 2010 01:18:39 GMT

In my opinion, Easy Goer was the best looking stallion I had ever laid eyes upon. Striking looking.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Chris — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:51:10 GMT

Hi,

Alan what do you think about Relaunch as a broodmare sire for Benchmark? It means inbreeding to The Axe II through daughters, adds more war admiral and what ever decent bottom half the broodmare brings.

Thanks,

Chris

re: The Influence of Alydar

Alan Porter — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 14:21:51 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

Genetic worth is probably something that is very hard to evaluate objectively. If we looked at how often an individual stallion appears in pedigrees of major winners, it's probably going to bias towards sires of sires.

On the other hand you get a horse like Mossborough - ordinary racehorse, decent sire who did get two expectional runners, Noblesse and Ballymoss - but subsequently important as he was by Nearco out of a three-parts-sister to Hyperion, and so a major foil for Nearctic.

Tom Fool's been very important for his containing the Menow/Bull Dog gene cluster. His influence even spread to Australia through Silly Season, Lunchtime to Snippets (very Tom Fool-looking horse). It's probably one of the reasons Nijinsky II has done well in Australia.

Tom Fool combined with Bold Ruler (didn't work well close up for soundness reasons related to Pompey and the sister) has also become an important one deeper in pedigrees, especially for Gone West.

re: The Influence of Alydar

sceptre — Sat, 29 May 2010 01:40:01 GMT

Hi Alan,

You've been most courteous to engage in this back and forth, so I was reluctant to offer yet another reply, but I find the topic rather important to breeders. I'll try to fashion it such that you won't feel obliged to respond. The subject is rather complicated, and doesn't lend well to blog sound bites. Here, though, are a few more "bites":

I am concerned about the methods many employ to evaluate genetic worth, and due to this the potential near extinction of valuable genes (i.e. potentially "rare + alleles, and/or relatively superior gene clusters w/i a chromosome)...Tom Fool and, perhaps his son, Buckpasser, may be notable examples. Both are among the most gifted and better bred runners ever. In the case of Tom Fool, one could arguably posit that no horse, ever, can match his combination of racing, sire, and broodmare sire stats. As a runner and broodmare sire, Buckpasser was comparable, and while not as good a sire as was Tom Fool, still distinguished himself-note, for example, his lifetime AEI. So, here's a bit of blasphemy-Tom Fool was unquestionably (and individually) a (1) better runner, a (2) better sire, and a (3) better broodmare sire than was Northern Dancer. Same applies to Buckpasser vs Northern Dancer for (1) and (3), with (2) up for grabs-I realize that few would agree with my (2) assessment. Where a Tom Fool and Buckpasser fell short with respect to a Northern Dancer is in the (4) sire of sires category-the "publicity" category. I am not suggesting that (4) is of lesser significance than those others, but rather that it should not be assigned greater weight when attempting to evaluate "genetic worth". One can certainly debate where (4) should be placed within the hierarchy (you'd likely place it first), but it would require a lengthly discussion (there is evidence both for and against).

re: The Influence of Alydar

Alan Porter — Tue, 25 May 2010 21:39:24 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

Perhaps it's because there are no absolutes that this remains such a fascinating business.

A lot has to do with expectation and perception - for example almost none of the better sons of Buckpasser struck you as sire of sire material - although one might argue that if he'd been a true sire of sires, one or two of them might have been good enough to break through.

Funnily enough, as talented, good-looking, and well-bred as he was, with hindsight, Buckpasser himself didn't have a stallion pedigree. It's hard to recall now, but the La Troienne family took a while to really produce stallions, and Tom Fool, good as he was - Horse of the Year at four, over three-year-old Native Dancer - never had a really good stallion son.

What, perhaps is interesting is that Buckpasser and Secretariat have been more important as influences, than they were successful as sires, but we're still waiting to see if that is true of Alydar.

It will be a shame if everything is one day reduced to statistics and there's no room for individual interpretation, or some lively debate.

Best

Alan

re: The Influence of Alydar

ITapp — Sat, 22 May 2010 18:38:58 GMT

Alysheba has some standout European runners as a broodmare sire:

Alysheba's daughter Bordighera produced European Champions Grandera (by Grand Lodge) and George Washington (Danehill).

His daughter Vanishing Prairie produced MG1SP Purple Moon (Galileo) and French highweight Vespone (Llandaff).

His daughter Bright Moon produced another French highweight, Bright Sky (Wolfhound).

His daughter Alywow was 1994 Canadian Horse of the Year and produced MG1SP Century City (Danzig).

re: The Influence of Alydar

Not an expert — Sat, 22 May 2010 17:34:54 GMT

Wasn't Alysheba a stakes winner and broodmare produing son of Alydar? Ihave seen him as damsire inafew European pedigrees?

re: The Influence of Alydar

sceptre — Fri, 21 May 2010 19:48:04 GMT

Dear Alan,

Your comprehensive and researched response is appreciated. No doubt, yours is a "reasonable interpretation" of available data, for the most part, but perhaps your data and thus your interpretations are farther from what is reality than is another's derived from his own perspective. I'll offer a few examples:

I speak as one who "lived" the racing and breeding career of Buckpasser (and the complete breeding career of the immortal, and largely underrated Tom Fool, his sire). It was my belief, then, that Buckpasser's leading male earners, L'Enjoleur, State Dinner, Silver Buck, Norcliffe, and Balzac hadn't, for the most part (Silver Buck was a ? for me) what it takes to succeed at stud. I came by this through witnessing their racing careers and evaluation of their pedigrees. (Not to say that I've always been correct, but that was my belief, then). On the other hand, I was always smitten with Buckaroo-the type of racehorse he was, and his pedigree, which for me was clearly superior to those above mentioned. Buckaroo did have soundness issues, and was, as was his sire, somewhat back at the knees. He was afforded only limited opportunity at stud. Unlike those others, I bred to him. Numbered Account was for me clearly Buckpasser's most talented runner, and of his talented runners the best bred of all. She was nearly the female carbon-copy of her sire, and perhaps the most talented female runner of my lifetime. This is why I bemoan the fact that she wasn't instead a male (yes, may not then have been quite the same racehorse, but with essentially the same genes). And, yes, she had the full-brother, How Curious, but citing this is as meaningless as citing a Pancho Villa, any of Mr. Prospector's or Swaps', or numerous others full-brothers. As said, this is but an example of how our perspectives may differ. I could offer similarly differing views on Alydar and his sons. Raw stats and tables are arguably less accurate reflections of reality than conclusions from some of those who are "studious" followers of the sport over a prolonged period.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Alan Porter — Thu, 20 May 2010 23:19:48 GMT

William,

A pretty well-known trainer told me he wouldn't mind a barn full of Wheatons. I believe they're very tough.

There is an interesting one called Desert Wheat who has started 50 times and earned around $690,000. He's out of a mare by Royal Academy, so has Crimson Saint 3 x 3 (she's granddam of Wheaton and dam of Royal Academy).

At a quick look, I can find one stakes winner and two stakes placed horses out of Wheaton mares, and both the stakes placed horses are by Storm Cat line stallions, so inbred to Terlingua.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Native Dancer — Thu, 20 May 2010 20:16:07 GMT

The influence of Alydar never stops to amaze. You can see his name in the pedigrees of such great runners like ICE BOX, Eskendereya, Gio Ponti, Summer Bird, Dunkirk and in the recent past Secret Status just to name a few at a glance. Many of them with Seattle Slew in their genealogy as well. So the afinity is more than demonstrated there...!

re: The Influence of Alydar

ITapp — Thu, 20 May 2010 13:49:30 GMT

William,

Wheaton was a useful stallion and got lots of winners and stakes horses, but only two graded winners -- Santana Strings and Radical Riley. Benchmark has seven graded winners including three grade I. Wheaton is a half brother to Storm Cat, so it will be interesting to see what his daughters produce.

re: The Influence of Alydar

william — Thu, 20 May 2010 10:18:09 GMT

wheaton my have any consideration like benchmark and the others..??

re: The Influence of Alydar

Alan Porter — Thu, 20 May 2010 00:56:33 GMT

Shelly,

Relaxing did have a foal by Seattle Slew, a 1985 filly called Comfy, who was a winner, and who earned black-type with a third in the Davona Dale Stakes at the Meadowlands.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 19 May 2010 18:47:03 GMT

Since we are discussing Buckpasser,in my opinion,one of his best fillies is Relaxing! She was durable,not afraid to carry weight or face the best in the handicap division in her time ! Impeccable Claiborne breeding ,she is inbred 4Sx4D to La Troienne!I think she would have fit well with Seattle Slew ! Was she ? I'm having trouble getting that information ! Alluvial by Buckpasser was another Claiborne mare who did well crossing with " Slew " Slew O'Gold was a champion who sired alot of nice horses but, could never be considered a "sire of sires " or even a decent broodmare sire . Sorry to wander off the subject ! :)

re: The Influence of Alydar

Alan Porter 1 — Wed, 19 May 2010 17:17:37 GMT

It's a great testimony to the charisma of the horse that some notes about Alydar, most famous for the races he did not win, have drawn some heartfelt responses on the blog.

One commentator sprung to the defence of Alydar, noting our comments regarding his influence. Of course, in terms of his record as a sire of broodmare sires, it wasn't a case of "picking on Alydar" just that Alydar was the horse under discussion, and his impact on subsequent generations the main topic. Of course, "exceeded expectations" is a very subjective term, and at the time they retired to stud, expectations for some of Alydar's best sons were very high indeed. Saratoga Six, who we noted as one of Alydar's better sons, has been a very respectable broodmare sire, and his daughters have produced three grade one winners. Turkoman, who covered good mares when he retired to stud, and therefore has plenty of well-bred daughters is broodmare sire of plenty of stakes winners, but only three of them grade one, Colonel John, Hard Spun, and Point Given, a horse who took far more after Turkoman than his sire, Thunder Gulch, but who cannot be said to have lived up to the highest hopes at stud. Strike the Gold is only broodmare sire of eight stakes winners, three graded, and one grade one (Borrego, who is out of a mare who has Alydar and his close relative, Raise a Cup, and is also from a very strong female line).

The comment regarding Alydar being a "stride" horse, and the explanation that often his best runners would have that characteristic to a greater degree, was first raised by Equix biomechanics, and I thought it was a hypothesis that was sufficiently interesting to raise. It's certainly interesting that his most successful son, Saratoga Six, was a precocious two-year-old speedster, and that Benchmark, his most notable over-achiever, was a seven furlong horse.

In the context of the direction of their influence, you certainly can group Buckpasser and Secretariat together, as neither appear to have established a lasting sire line in the U.S., but both became outstanding broodmare sires of sires. You raise the question, "What if Numbered Account, Terlingua and Althea been males." One answer is that there would have been no Private Account, Mutakddim, Not For Love, Bluegrass Cat, and Super Saver (all descending from Numbered Account), and no Storm Cat (out of Terlingua). With regard to Buckpasser - and I would say that he was slightly disappointing in his own era - his fillies tended to be better than his colts, so Numbered Account may not have been as good as a male, and that his best sons, L'Enjoleur, Norcliffe, Silver Buck, State Dinner, and Balzac, did little to indicate that another son would have been an exception. In fact his best stallion son was the relatively modest Buckaroo, who does have a slim shot at extending the line, via Spend a Buck (sire of Einstein) and Montbrook. Terlingua did have a very quick brother called Pancho Villa, and he was a very ineffective stallion. With regard to Althea, I'd question why a male version should have significantly outperformed such as Alysheba, Turkoman, Criminal Type and Easy Goer (who with the help of the Phipps female lines, has actually been a better broodmare sire than most other Alydar sons).

One of the beauties of racing and breeding is that it can encompass a world of opinion, and it would be very boring if we all interpreted data the same way. My feeling that my broad comment on Alydar - disappointing as a sire of sires, surprisingly ineffectual as a broodmare sire of sires, and generally disappointing as a sire of broodmare sires - is a reasonable interpretation of available data, and that the comments are warranted.

re: The Influence of Alydar

Maryland — Wed, 19 May 2010 11:12:20 GMT

How is Winter's Love line bred to Almahmoud? I certainly see that Mahmoud gave a son, The Axe twice and a daughter Natalma but please take one minute and explain it, thanks

Miss Soft Shell has 2 War Relics and a sister

Alan's reply: Winter's Love isn't inbred to Almahmoud. As you say, she's got Mahmoud twice, through Almahmoud and The Axe II (who have some other commonalities). Brother Derek has a double of The Axe II along with Almahmoud. Sorry, it was just a typo - it should have said Mahmoud (now corrected in the post above) - she's linebred to Mahmoud and she also has Royal Charger, with the three-parts-sister to Mahmoud. .

re: The Influence of Alydar

Ian Tapp — Wed, 19 May 2010 03:50:15 GMT

I've been watching the comments here -- let's just say this is a popular topic. Even after 20 years there are some extremely passionate people about Alydar and his untimely death. Thank you to everyone who has left comments, but we're just posting those that deal with pedigree aspects, unless someone wants to comment on Alan's Springsteen reference...

re: The Influence of Alydar

Robin from Maryland — Wed, 19 May 2010 01:56:26 GMT

Alydar was a true champion not only on the track, but also in the breeding shed. Sure do hope that the b-----s involved with his murder have gotten their just reward.