On the Road to Greatness?

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Anthony Say — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 21:12:45 GMT

Ice Box looks like best on paper and he is only

horse in this field with a winner of the Belmont as sire or brood mare sire

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Mike Relva — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:03:10 GMT

I think QR is on his way to becoming a great horse if he remains healthy. It will have to be proven if he can beat the great mare in the Breeders' Classic and I'm not speaking of RA!!!!

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Alan Porter — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:33:24 GMT

Caroletherese,

I don't think there's much doubt that Quality Road has an outstanding cardio-vascular system - and as fast as he cruises, he most be very biomechanically efficient.

With regard to Princequillo, Quality Road has four crosses, but if we are looking for an x-chromosone conveyed "large heart-gene" - ignoring arguments about whether that actually exists for the moment - there is only one shot, through the second dam of Bold Bidder in the seventh generation. If I'm counting correctly, I think there would be once chance in 24 of the gene coming from Princequillo.

John T,

What's interesting about the Nijinsky II source here is the roundabout route it has taken. If memory serves correctly, Whiskey Road race in Europe. He was then sent to Australia, where he sired Strawberry Road, an Australian Champion who subsequently raced with distinction in Europe and the U.S., before retiring here. He was a very good sire, and his offspring included Champion Ajina, a sister to the dam of Quality Road. Whiskey Road is out of a half-sister to the dams of Graustark (in Elusive Quality, the sire of Quality Road) and His Majesty. In Australia, he's done well with Danehill, who is out of an His Majesty mare.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Alan Porter — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:56:05 GMT

I think one thing that shouldn't be overlooked is the "Compression Effect."

I believe there has been a tendency for the performance level of the very best thoroughbreds to have leveled off over the last 40-50 years, while the average has continued to improve. So while the best horse might not have improved from the Secretariat era, the tenth, hundredth and thousanth horse is significantly better.

It means that a field of "ordinary" horses is a much tougher proposition than the equivalent opposition in 1970. Thus, it's far harder to dominate and each race is likely to take more out of a horse.

If we take speed figures as a guide - and one may be an anomoly, but a consistent high level surely isn't - then Quality Road's 110 or better Beyers in all but one of his wins, signifies a rare talent.

This weekend's effort came off a long layoff; he had to put away two smart horses, Le Grand Cru and Warrior's Reward, then hold off Musket Man, a smart, in-form horse to whom he was conceding 7 lbs., a feat he achieved in a time that officially tied the second fastest in the history of the race.

At the moment I wouldn't quite elevate him to the pantheon on the basis of "body of work" and at the moment for me he sits with horses like Formal Gold (who never received the respect he deserved), Skip Away, Curlin, in very, very good category for post Holy Bull/Cigar. I think that's where I'd also put Big Brown, while admitting he certainly had the potential for greatness. Smarty Jones is probably up there too.

There is no denying Zenyatta as a great on the basis of her achievements, and on the basis of her unique campaign, and her best efforts, I'd have to also include Rachel Alexandra. Talking of females, although she tailed off late, what about Azeri in this period?

If we include European fillies that have race in the U.S., is Goldikova closing in?

Jimmy the D - I think you're right that Quality Road would be nailed on for the Dirt Mile, and the Classic is less certain, although the prospect of him on the front-end (a la Ghostzapper) and Zenyatta charging from the rear is an interesting one.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Not an expert — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:43:02 GMT

I dont see much worth in the modern Handicap division. Handicap used to mean serious weight. hwe top handicap horses barely carru the weight assigned to top three year old fillies. As long ascommercial breeders put emphasis on speed, yeah Igues milers will be important stallions. I was strick by the limited stallion progeny that signed up for the Triple Crown, For the most part only a handful of stallions were widely repredented, most of them NOT nilers

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Jimmy the D — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:05:44 GMT

Ian,

All's fair.

Anabaa's Creation was a good wake up call for Zenyatta (as well as Mike Smith whom blamed himself for the close call) at Del Mar, which she also broke the track record.

It set her up nicely to win the Grade 1 Lady's Secret,which by the way is named after Zenyatta now, beating multiple Grade 1 race winning Cocoa Beach (Beldame, Matriarch) among others.

Regarding Quality Road, I believe people are rushing this horse into super horse status prematurely.

And I think the thing regarding finding an adversary for Zenyatta is accurate.

Let the year play out, and hopefully Quality Road can add a few more Grade 1's over more Grade 1 winning horses.

And I hope he doesn't turn out like Easy Goer-wins the Wood in superfast time, then loses the Derby at CD, then later goes on and wins five Grade 1 races and loses the BCC at CD...

Trevor Denman, the track announcer for Santa Anita, officially coronated Zenyatta as a superhorse after the BCC.

This was after the great mare had beaten the winners of 23 Grade 1 races in her campaign leading up to the BCC.

You're right - let's see how the season plays out!

re: On the Road to Greatness?

CURLINLOVER — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:55:31 GMT

ITapp! Hi! I think you and I are in agreement. :-)

In the Belmont, I like Interactif and Ice Box; but I do not have a favorite with LAL and Dublin not in it. But it will be exciting as Pletcher entered Interactif at the last minute. A hard call; but I agree with you that this year's crop does not match that of 07! I also agree with QR being a great horse, and I wish he would have entered the starting gate in the BC last fall. Who knows? He's truly a fine horse and super talented - no doubt! I really hope he wins the BC this year and HOY. So, from a CURLIN fan, I'm with you in that QR still has a lot to do and probably will end up one of the greats. May he stay sound! I will cheer him on in the BC and JCGC which he'll probably race in. I'm still a LAL fan - but realize he could never beat QR.

I'm glad you agree that there'll be no horse-bashing on this blog. It's more interesting and fun to have a civilized and educated conversation/discussion!

Enjoy the Belmont! May all horses run their best, the best horse win, and all come across the finish line safely and sound!

The rest of the season will be interesting when different ages meet each other.

Enjoy it, all of you!

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Ian Tapp — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 12:16:22 GMT

Jimmy,

I respect that you're not willing to declare QR a superstar quite yet, but if Musket Man's resume somehow tarnishes QR's talent, then what can we say about Anabaa's Creation?

Also, the times you cited at Hawthorne and Tampa Bay are slower surfaces that yield slower times. For example, the track record at Tampa Bay is 1:42 4/5 set by a 6-year-old. Musket Man's Tampa Bay Derby was 1:43 3/5, less than a second off the record.

Atta Boy Roy, the horse who beat Musket Man over a sloppy track at Churchill, came back to run 2nd last week in the Aristides. That horse is obviously in good form.

Let's see how the rest of the season plays out!

Ian

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Jimmy the D — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:57:59 GMT

Ian,

Believe what you want to believe.

Knock yourself out.

But your leap of faith seems extremely far-fetched.

Please consider that Musket Man, a horse that was pushing Quality Road at a mile, has to his credit a Grade 2 at Hawthorne in just under 1:50 for a mile and 1/8.

Give him also credit also for a Grade 3 at Tampa at almost 1:44 for a mile and a 1/16.

The horse that beat Musket Man at CD hadn't won a race in over a year.

Looking at the race Quality Road seems perfectly matched with the Breeders' Cup Mile, not the Classic.

Which is not a bad thing.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

John T — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:57:11 GMT

I am glad to hear Elusive Quality has crossed well with Nijinsky mares. Born in 1968 Nijinsky was the best Canadian foal that year being by the Kentucky Derby winner Northern Dancer out of Flaming Page who not only won the 1962 Candaian Oaks, but beat the colts in Canada's top race for 3 year olds the Queen's Plate. Bought by New Jersey business man Charles W Englehard and sent to the ''Tipperary Wizard'' Vincent O Brien for training he went on to distinguish himself as a racehorse and like all son's of Northern Dancer who done well on the racetrack went on to be a very successfull sire.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Ian Tapp — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:35:32 GMT

Jimmy,

Fair point, Quality Road should have beat that field, and he did.

People said the same about Ghostzapper. He beat an average field in the Vosburgh, then beat just 3 horses in the Tom Fool, and 3 horses in the Iselin. Nevermind the fact he was running insane times every race, they still said "But what did he beat?"... Then the Woodward and Breeders' Cup Classic happened.

Would you agree that there's a point when a horse shows repeated brilliance in terms of speed figures and times relative to track records that you can stop using the also-rans as your only barometer of talent?

Ian

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Anthony Say — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 01:00:54 GMT

Yeah what about Big Brown's pedigree, there is some Tesio breeding going on there

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Jimmy the D — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:41:58 GMT

Quality Road - help me out, was there a winner of a Grade 1 race in this race beside Quality Road?

The race was full of east coast tomato cans. A bunch of unherald members from the infamous three year old class of last year that made Rachel Alexandra a superhorse in the eyes of many, but as we all found out later wasn't.

Try again.

The only people that seem to care about this race are the humilated and embarrassed fans of Rachel Alexandra seeking any horse that has four legs and is breathing to beat Zenyatta.

Them and the discredited east coast turf writers that voted RA HOY.

Give me a break, Quality Road desperately holding off Musket Man-a horse that went from the Classics to losing to a glorified claimer from Emeralddowns in an undercard race at Churchill Downs.

Yep, it's on the road to greatness!

re: On the Road to Greatness?

caroleterese — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:12:37 GMT

Alan,

What is the probability that QR may have inherited the Princequillo maternal gene for the unusually large heart size? QR was completely cooled out after the Met by the time he arrived back at the barn. It was freaky, as if he had not run at all. The ass't trainer remarked on it at some length. I assume QR's cardiovascular system is exceptionally efficient and strong. Your thoughts here?

re: On the Road to Greatness?

PMAC14 — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:07:56 GMT

Allen,

Would you not include Big Brown in the update also. He was pure class. To bad his trainer is a jerk. Quality Road reminds me alot of BB with the sheer class they both have. Big Brown just gets no credit from many people on the Bloodhorse but this guy could really run. Very underated as is his genious pedigree

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Alan Porter — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 20:18:04 GMT

I will stir the pot a bit more. Having co-written "Patterns of Greatness - The Americans" which covered from Count Fleet to Holy Bull, if I was updating, I'd have to include Ghostzapper. Some might knock how infrequently he ran, but very, very few horses have matched his best form, and speedfigures.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Ian Tapp — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:29:11 GMT

Curlinlover, I'm glad we've stirred up some excitement! Don't worry, no Curlin-bashing here. There are many ways to measure greatness, and you're right, Curlin is the king of accomplishment. No way to argue that from an earner of $10 million.

Going back to Alan's post above, he calls QR "the most naturally talented U.S. runner we’ve seen since Ghostzapper," and I agree with Alan's assessment. Certainly not as accomplished as Curlin, but extremely talented nevertheless.

Current 3yo's, apart from the Derby and Preakness winners, maybe not a vintage crop like 2007, but it looks like several good ones are late-developing types, so it will be interesting to see who steps up in summer/fall. The Belmont should tell a lot. I've been touting Stately Victor but several people at The Blood-Horse have laughed at me! Who do you like?

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Rachel — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:18:55 GMT

I've loved QR since his first race, was one of 2 who knew his second race was a total throw-out...cannot wait to see the Breeder's Cup this year!

QR reminds me a lot of Candy Ride...IF he can run a 1:31 mile and then a 1:59.11 mile and quarter...

re: On the Road to Greatness?

CURLINLOVER — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 18:56:36 GMT

OK, ITapp! Get your point! CURLIN was never a sprinter, true! Do you judge horses on versatility or accumulative accomplishments? Hard question. If you judge on accumulative accomplishments, it will be difficult for QR to beat CURLIN. As for Ghostzapper, he's nowhere in that case. On raw talent, that's another story; but again, hard to compare different generations of runners as all had different competition, conditions, and post positions. All blogs go through this discussion, and we can continue till we're blue in the face. We will never truly know who the best horse of different generations is/was. Maybe a better idea would be to enjoy each great horse coming along and hoping for a lengthier and healthy career for each with the ability to retire sound to stud. The eternal put-downs of certain horses is hurtful as they all have their fans; I'm sure you agree on this and that's not what you're doing, I know. But too many blogs are filled with put-downs. I, for one, am tired of it and want to have my favorite horse each season with the hope of him/her being able to continue beyond his/her 3-year old campaign.

CURLIN will forever be my all-time favorite horse; but I love others too and want to see them succeed. What I don't want is seeing CURLIN dragged down in any way. We need to separate their abilities, and I think you're trying to make that point actually. As for Draynot, he reminds me of Draynay! Anyone? Let's see what QR does this year before we declare him the best horse in the world - please!

What do you think of the 3-year olds this year, ITapp? Any thoughts?

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Ian Tapp — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:07:43 GMT

Curlinlover, That's my point... don't judge Curlin as a miler, and don't judge Quality Road as a 10-furlong slop horse.

Both are top horses, but the versatility of horses like Ghostzapper and Quality Road sets them apart. It's rare when a horse is equally brilliant sprinting, at a mile, and in routes.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

draynot — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:07:14 GMT

QR is a monster. I've been on him since before his Fla. Derby win and believe he's the best horse in the world. Let's hope he stays healthy and makes it to the finish line in the Classic this year. He's the one to beat, only Zenyatta has a chance.

re: On the Road to Greatness?

CURLINLOVER — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:16:29 GMT

I seem to remember that CURLIN liked the sloppy track in the Breeders Cup Classic of 07 where he won by 4 1/2! And that year's 3-year olds were good!!!

By the way, Quality Road was my favorite last year, and I think very highly of him and find him the best horse this year. I hope he gets HOY! And he's so handsome! I just don't think he's better than CURLIN. But we'll never know, will we? Also, CURLIN was not a miler - preferring longer distances.

One last fact: CURLIN was voted Horse of the Decade by both Bloodhorse.com readers and Steve Haskin!!! Has to mean something. but I guess we're now in the new decade. Maybe QR will do this decade what CURLIN did last. I really like him; so, no offense.

So, I'll actully root for him in his 4-old campaign.

Go QR! Go Curlin!!! :-)

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Ian Tapp — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:40:40 GMT

Curlinlover, true, but Summer Bird beat QR on sloppy tracks, and one of those races was the Travers when QR had prepped at 6 1/2 furlongs off a 4-month layoff.

I'd like to see Curlin run a mile in 1:33...

re: On the Road to Greatness?

CURLINLOVER — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:52:25 GMT

I would like to see - if it were possible - Quality Road beat CURLIN when at HIS best!!!Remember Quality Road lost to Summer Bird! And do you really think Summer Bird is/was better than CURLIN? I think not! Too bad they didn't send Quality Road to Dubai! Seems like CURLIN romped there! Would Quality Road have done so? So fun to imagine the best horses of teh decades race against each other - if only it were possible!

re: On the Road to Greatness?

Bellwether — Wed, 02 Jun 2010 12:26:19 GMT

QR LOOKS TO B HORSE OF THE YEAR FOR NOW...