Infusing Speed or Stamina?

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Ian Tapp — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:52:48 GMT

Michelle,

Hard to get a line on the mare; she won at 4.5f and 8f in consecutive starts, and neither of her 2 runners made more than 2 starts. I wouldn't be concerned with speed/stamina. I'd try to find a stallion who is of similar size and would seem to complement her, and who also has had success with Seattle Slew line mares.

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

MichelleH — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 02:08:54 GMT

Interesting thread...our farm just purchased a 13 y.o. mare , Gebb's Glory for breeding...was using the nicking generator just for fun and stumbled across this thread , she does have an excellent BL , including Bold Ruler , Native Dancer , Bold Reasoning , Northern Dancer, Polynesian , and Seattle Slew is her grandsire..this isn't all , btw. I was wondering anyone's take as to what would be your choice to breed her with , speed or stamina ? her DP is 24 , her DI is 5.00 ,and her CD is 1.08..if anyone feels up to the challenge , humor me (and yourself..lol !) I would greatly appreciate it !

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

RonM — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 07:01:46 GMT

It has been my experience that every well bred thoroughbred has the ability to run fast. The difference is how far they can carry that speed. Why else would there be so many races at 5 to 6 furlongs, and many fewer at route distances?

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Alfonso from Spain — Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:34:54 GMT

By the way, I love Staying races. Fortunately for us we still have the Ascot Gold Cup over 20 furlongs and it is a race I love.

Take a look at the last one:

www.youtube.com/watch

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Alfonso from Spain — Sun, 01 Aug 2010 20:26:00 GMT

There is something important in this discussion and it is the fact that the biggest percentage of stallions are speedy ones. A smart two-year old group winner, will have his oportunities at stud, while a group 1 winner over 15furlongs will have no chance.

This means that in terms of probability, nowadays, it's easier to find speed than staying power.

This situation has made in the last decade, that most of the mares have speedy backgrounds. Even if they were stayers. That's in my opinion the reason why the stamina stallions are getting the best results. In Europe, Galileo, Monsun, Montjeu, Dalakhani and company, are doing very well and only some speed-stallions such as Pivotal or Oasis Dream are having comparable success.

Last year I wrote an article in a spanish magazine about EEUU stallions. If we take the 2009 sirelist and we sort by average earnings per runner (avoiding the ones with few products) we find; Birdstone, Tiznow, Street Cry, Medaglia D'oro, Ap Indy, Tapit, Empire maker, Speighstown, Lemon Drop Kid, Unsual Heat, Smart Strike, Dynaformer, Distorted Humor, El Prado,...

Many of them are sources of stamina.

Regarding the matter of this post, I think that the question is answered by the cicles of breeding. It all depends on the time analised. Now that we have a lot of speed influences, I think that it will be easier to make a speed product, as nearly all the backgrounds are speedy. Nowadays its difficult to breed a stayer.

The need of the market of cheap speed is producing early matturing horses that have really trouble to run over 10 furlongs. In order to win the big races, influential breeders are using stamina stallions. Those breeders are the ones who will make impact in the future breed as they have the best mares. In the following twenty years we will have darley, Coomore, JUddmonte, Aga Kahn and so on breeding to their stamina stallions. They will provide the stallions of the future so again twenty years later we will have more stamina stallions. It's all a cicle.

So, the answer in my opinion is "it depends"

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Steve B — Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:37:43 GMT

I think Henri is pretty much on the money. But there has been little mention here of physical type and function of training which I think are important considerations in giving expression to genetic backgrounds. When I see Ben Johnson leading a marathon field into the stadium (presuming he has run the previous 26 miles!) and Abebe Bikila winning the Olympic 100 metres final....

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Henri Jooste (New Zealand) — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:28:38 GMT

Speed is an intrinsic factor within the genetic makeup of the thoroughbred which breeders fail to appreciate. Horses of the highest class are able to carry speed over a distance. These horses can run final fractions (eg last 400m or qurter mile) close to or even faster than the top sprinters of the day.

Quarter horse breeders have to continuously infuse thoroughbred strains into the breed to maintain speed.

When thoroughbred breeders claim that a mare needs to be put to a speedy sire (or vice versa) I cringe because what they are more often than not doing is limiting the stamina ability of the subsequent progeny and not neccessarily imbuing it with "speed".

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Obmar — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:29:32 GMT

Hertz still had it in the back of his mind that he might yet bring off the long-tried breeding theory of mating a distance-running sire, like Reigh Count, with a flashy, speedy mare, to produce a son with the best qualities of both.

Such a mare did come along, but it took better than ten years, and it called for even more of the gambler’s gambit to take a chance with her. She was Quickly, a shifty mare by Haste, out of a daughter by Stefan the Great. Hertz, in buying her for only $2,500, was bucking the wisdom of breeders, who distrust any mare that has run too much. The reasoning is that they have worn themselves out to be any good as a broodmare. On the surface, Quickly fit that theorem. She was seven years old, footsore, in poor physical condition, having raced eighty-five times in six seasons, winning thirty-two times and earning only $21,530. Most of her victories were at six furlongs distance obviously was not her forte. Quickly’s first mating was poor. The next year she was barren. Hertz still refused to concede, with the result that his luck, gambling instinct, and sheer stubbprnness bore fruit on March 24, 1940, To the cover of Reigh Count at Hertz’s Stoner Creek Farm in Kentucky, she produced an ugly duckling of a foal, “a gangling little brown chow-hound that was promptly named Count Fleet.”

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Ann in Lexington — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:44:46 GMT

This question came up recently on a pedigree-nut board I frequent. Generally, it seemed the Brits preferred stamina sires over speed dams, as with the daughters of Mumtaz Mahal, while the Americans seemed to be on the side of speed sires over staying mares, ala Hard Spun. Perhaps this split has to do with what is available locally?

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

peggy7 — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:03:04 GMT

Mumtaz Mahal;

don't forget Royal Charger, chef de race of class even though he's listed as brilliant. Hail to Reason is founder of highest class

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

John T — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:47:48 GMT

I think it is easier to make a speedy family stay. Mumtaz Mahal's offspring, particulary her fillies were disapointing. when her daughters retired to stud however it was a very different story. Mah Mahal bred the 1936 Epsom Derby winner Mahmoud who went on to have a very successful stud career in America. Among Mah Mahal's daughters was Mah Iran by Epsom Derby winner Bahram, she bred Migoli winner of the Arc and sire in America of the Belmont winner, Gallant Man. Mah Iran's daughter Star Of Iran bred Petite Etoile, winner of the one thousand Guineas, Oaks, Sussex and Champion Stakes, and the Coronation Cup twice. The speedy Mumtaz Begum bred 8 winners, the best by far being Nasrullah who went on to sire top class horses like Nashua and Bold Ruler, who in turn produced Secretariat.

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 01:25:22 GMT

Weekend Surprise seems to be a good example ! She produced AP Indy who sired classic winners Bernardini and Rags to Riches . She is also the dam of Summer Squall who sired classic winner Charismatic . This is one mare that has contributed alot of stamina to the breed !

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

sceptre — Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:00:54 GMT

Denise- You can Google fast twitch/slow twitch fibers racehorse to learn more about this topic. I'm quite sure we can't yet identify the individuals carrying the relative pecentages. One female Irish vet believes she has a few (genetic) markers, but I found her information to be useless. Also, the fast twitch/slow twitch percentages may, or may not be important limiting factors regarding the topic of this blog...In general, I'd prefer that you address questions to Ian. He also may have access to equine physiologists who might better answer such questions. Lastly, my motivation for engaging in this (TruNicks) blog is merely to dialogue with an Ian. I have no desire to inform or, perhaps, educate its readers as I've learned that the majority are at odds with my positions on racehorse welfare.

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Tony Kelzenberg — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 22:56:19 GMT

Without having EXAMPLES, I think it is easier to TRAIN a horse with speed. If one don't have at least tactical speed, one's options are limited.

I do recall a quote from Aidan O'Brien (of Coolmoore, etc.) saying he loves training horses that can make their own pace, and that this ability is under-represented in European stock in general.

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

denise — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 22:42:50 GMT

screptre -could you expand on the fast twitch/ slow twitch fibers - how do you evaluate them in the horse - what lines are known to pass them - thanks

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

sceptre — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 22:07:27 GMT

Hi Ian,

Yes, I suppose that's his point...What do I think?-I don't know. There are so many variables-so many separate pieces of evidence- and so much that we still don't know scientifically. I realize that the present accepted dictum is that it's easier to breed stamina from speed (mare) than to accomplish the reverse-which essentially means that it's easier to produce a competitive distance horse from a speed mare than to produce a competitive speed horse from a stamina oriented mare. But, even here, there is the variable-"competitive". What is today easier to accomplish competitive-wise, may have been opposite before. So, the lessons from history are less readily understood. Examples no doubt abound both ways. Just for fun, I'll cite an example of the less accepted position-Crimson Saint. She produced consistent speed no matter her mate (Nijinsky II, Secretariat, etc.).

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Claudette — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:41:38 GMT

Every once in a while a horse comes along and he just blows every theory out of the water. Slew, Barbaro, Secretariat, John Henry and Cigar (to name a few). We can try till we're blue in the face to get the right "mixture", but in the end, you can never purposely breed "heart".....it's just there...

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

Ian Tapp — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:18:40 GMT

sceptre,

You make a good argument for evaluating families based on "quality" rather than speed or stamina "aptitude."

But I think Jeremy Early's point is, essentially, that it's easier to make a speedy family stay than it is to make a staying family speedy.

Or, to remove the aspect of "family" and multiple generations from discussion, consider a single generation only: is it easier to breed speed into a staying mare, or to breed staying ability into a speedy mare? What do you think?

Ian

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

sceptre — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:55:13 GMT

It seems a stretch to even acknowledge this as a theory. A theory based upon what?..Horama is many generations back in the pedigrees of Teenoso, Sir Percy, Einstein, etc. Her genetic contribution, therefore, is relatively quite limited..John Early's quote, albeit literally taken out of context, makes little sense. How can the aptitudes of decendants so far removed from a Horama or Mumtaz Mahal be considered as a "confirmation" of the theory he cites? Rather, history would seem to suggest that aptitudes can be fairly directly blended-that the norm is generally an "averaging". The better examples of this question are likely found with the stallions. While there are some where speed or stamina seem to predominate in their offsping (presumibly Roman's "chefs" are examples)-, Roman, himself, argues that these chefs are deemed chefs only because of their abilities to sire a predominant aptitude (not quality). This suggests that the majority of sires fail to reach this threshold. "X-factor" (and/or mDNA) not withstanding, one should presume that the same holds for the female line. I have seen instances where a speed sire, or distance sire rather consistently sires same (no matter the aptitude of the dam bred to that sire). But even in those cases this similarity of aptitude can quickly alter by the next generation. There are certainly many examples of speed (in particular) reasserting itself in a pedigree of apparent stamina. Kona Gold comes readily to mind. There is so much more to discussions such as this-what is known, and not known about the inheritance of fast twitch/slow twitch fibers, the cardiovascular and respiratory systems, etc...As an aside, the example of Mumtaz Mahal may be relevant. She was most certainly a dramatic influence for quality speed-with the emphasis on "quality". Her other qualities, combined with her brilliance (and judicial matings), likely contributed to enabling many of her decendants to perform well over longer distances than did she herself.

re: Infusing Speed or Stamina?

ckroger — Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:57:41 GMT

Safely Kept (Champion Sprinter) is the dam of Safety Check who won a msw at 7f. A full furlong further than his dam's favored distance.