Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Alfonso from Spain — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 08:12:52 GMT

First of all I would like to answer Mr Craven about the fact that Danehill hasn't made a mark yet in the states.

First of all, some history about the stallion should be displayed. Danehill didn't start as a superstar, but as one of the cheap stallions that Coolmore usually offer to modest breeders. He has made his path from the low quality band of mares. He was superb and therefore, each year he received better mares and each year he improved his results, getting to a point where he cleary demonstrated that he was better than Sadler's Wells (just see the numbers)

This non-aristocratic start, has made that his first stallion sons, were not from the best damlines. Unfortunatelly for him, in Europe he has few crops resulting from the mates with the best mares. His death was a real pity, but the last of his progeny will probably be the best at the stud.

As also occurs in the states, when a sire is too hot, it is difficult to quit from the local breeders, the stock of that sire. In the same way, Ap Indy has done nothing in Europe, as the best has always remained in the states. Given the type of the Danehill's I am sure that he would have performed increadibly had he covered in USA. There are a lot of similarities with the Australian races (distance, surfaces) and Danehill has performed there superbly.

Anyway, getting to the point of the post, I think that Redoutes will suit better for the USA breeding, not for his pedigree but because his progreny are more precocius and suited for shorter distances, which are "musts" for USA racing. When we think about a stallion we imagine the Kentucky Derby, the Breeders Cup Classic and so on, but most of the progeny of any sire, will have to compete in the standard races and this are short distance, dirt ones there. One thing is what pedigree lovers as I am, would want in terms of genetic poule refresh and increase of stamina, but that's not the way your market works.

Even he was a sprinter, Pivotal is increasing the distance he had in his progeny. He as Danehill, started with low profile mares and year by year he has increased his stud fee. The best of Pivotal is still to come in the following years. But for being a sprinter, his progeny is rarely late maturing, probably because he delivers massive horses. The Pivotals have a great turn on foot and that could be very usefull for turf and polytrack racecourts but I am not so sure if it could be suitable for dirt races.

Anyway if we didn't think in the market conditions and only in taking fresh air to the US breeding, I for sure would choose a son of Monsun. There are very little horses that conform the breeding of the future. In the last twenty years I think that only Danehill has done it in Europe (I am one of those who think that Sadler's was a great stallion but not a century stallion, benefited from marketing and massive coverings of G1 mares). The other stallion whon is shaping the thoroughbred in a different way here is Monsun. With small books (he is blind) is increadible what Monsun is doing. Just follow this and next year his sons, Air Trooper, Scorcher, Mashoor, Montgolfier and so on. The only drawback that he has is the absolute lack off precocity.

That could be solved here in the US, as you have perhaps too much stressed the precocity on top of other traits.

In fact I think that Monsun is so good that he would perfom greatly also in the US. You have had little Monsun runners there, among them Shirocco, Royal Highness or Lauro. Monsun would be really fresh air to your breeding.

Regards from Spain

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Fabio — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 00:12:20 GMT

Redoute's Choice. The type of horse he produces would be totally made to American racing on Turf. Pivotal is basically a soft ground sire, or at the very least many horses he's produced don't like firm ground.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Glenn Craven — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 20:40:08 GMT

Put me down for Pivotal.

While Danehill is prolific in many markets, his sons are yet to overwhelm North America, and namely Kentucky, where the stallion register only lists North Light at stud. Meanwhile, the register lists just four sons of Polar Falcon at stud, anywhere, to 85 for Danehill. ... Admittedly its taking a surprising while for Danehill to catch on in the States, but his get still have ample opportunity and the advantage in sheer weight of numbers.

As Northern Dancer-line stallions go, that makes Pivotal's sireline-blood more of a rarity, especially if you step back one more generation and consider that Redoute's Choice's sire, Danehill, was a son of Danzig, who has (per the register) 92 sons at stud. Polar Falcon was by the gifted Nureyev, who was also a valuable sire, but has only 28 sons left at stud, per the register.

But the bottom side of the pedigree is just as compelling an argument to me (and on somewhat similar grounds) for Pivotal.

It would be hard to suggest that Redoute's Choice's dam-sire, Canny Lad, is commonplace. But his second dam was by Nijinsky II and his third by Sir Ivor. Splendid bloodlines; enough to make any breeder envious. But more widely accessible in the general population as a result.

Pivotal, meanwhile, is out of a Cozzene mare -- Cozzene being a spectacular racehorse and fine sire -- yet only five stallions in the register are from his daughters, including the promising Toccet. This is blood I want to see preserved in the States; blood that is many times more rare than that of Nijinsky II.

Pivotal's second dam was the Italian-raced Group 1 winner Stufida, by Bustino, a fantastic European line (son of great-great-grandson of Blenheim, via Donatello-Crepello-Busted) that certainly has influenced the U.S. far less than Nijinsky II and Sir Ivor, due no doubt to its less-recognizable (to average American breeders') names and the line's propensity for turf and distance. (Not that Nijinsky II, particularly, wasn't a turf horse or didn't get turf horses; he was and did.) ... The female side of this pedigree is extensively British- and French-turf, for which I have considerable appreciation.

But despite the relative rarity (in American terms certainly) of many ancestors, Pivotal still carries ancestors whose names U.S. breeders should recognize, appreciate, and know how to work with: Northern Dancer; Forli; Nasrullah through Nantallah's daughter, Thong; Princequillo; Sir Gaylord.

And, with only one line to Northern Dancer (Nureyev) vs. the two of Redoute's Choice (Danzig and Nijinsky II, plus a third line of Northern Dancer's dam, Natalma), there would be less concern about too heavily inbreeding a mare who -- as do so many in the States -- already carries Northern Dancer in a line or two of her own.

Certainly from a TrueNicks perspective, it helps to note Pivotal's consistently rating a B+ with Mr. Prospector, and sons from his line, (not stellar, but good), while Redoute's Choice has only scored a D with Mr. Prospector and many of his sons. (Although A++ with Conquistador Cielo, a favorite of mine.) Obviously there are an abundance of mares in the States whose sires or dams are from the Mr. Prospector line and could benefit from the better nick.

Finally, I do think America could reap rewards from Pivotal's obvious advantage in stamina over the get of Redoute's Choice, his foals' average winning distance being more than a furlong beyond his rival's. We seem to be short on real staying power over here.

My only reservation is that Redoute's Choice has been getting a higher percentage of runners and winners from all foals, both figures that I do consider very important.

But the preponderance of evidence, for me, weighs in Pivotal's favor.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Murray — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 11:33:59 GMT

I have always wondered why it has taken USA studs so long to pick up on the Danehill phenomenon, Europe & Australia were quick off the mark there. Is it because the US is very set in its ways when it comes to importing stallions, they were all imported years ago.

Without having read the affinity report I would recommend Redoute's Choice as there is already ample Nureyev blood there I would've thought.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

American Dad — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 02:52:28 GMT

Pivotal due to his longer average winning distance and superior crosses to Mr. Prospector. Additionally, he is known to get nonbleeders, an increasing issue with many leading North American sire lines. Both would be welcome additions in the US but have created excellent reputations in their current countries. It might be interesting to see Redoute's Choice shuttle. I am sure he could fill a Northern Hemisphere book.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Pedigree Shelly — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 20:06:35 GMT

I chose Pivotal . He seems to fit very well with Rahy , Blushing Groom line and Mr. Prospector line mares . He would be " A breath of fresh air " for American Bloodlines !

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

John Raynolds — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:12:36 GMT

I'm picking Redoute's Choice- from the reports it appears RC nicks better with the Storm Cat line but Pivotal is much better with Mr Prospector line. However,RC really improves with Kingmambo and Machiavellian so I think he would probably work with the better quality Mr P lines in N. hemisphere.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Karen in Indiana — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 18:27:56 GMT

I voted for Pivotal mainly based on two of his ancestors: Special & Caro. Plus, while he has ancestors in common with horses in the States, he would also provide some fresh blood which would be helpful to the breed, a recent example of a stallion doing the same and doing well would be Candy Ride.

The ancestors of Redoute’s Choice can be found in so many other stallions that it seems redundant to bring in another.

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Ian Tapp — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:48:06 GMT

...and here are some of the best progeny of Redoute's Choice:

Allez Wonder (dam by Military Plume)
Anamato (Whiskey Road)
Cheeky Choice (Caerleon)
Fashions Afield (Wild Again)
Gallica (Kingmambo)
God's Own (Sky Chase)
Lotteria (Sir Tristram)
Miss Finland (Woodman)
Melito (Marauding)
Musir (Encosta de Lago)
Nadeem (Sound Reason)
Redoute's Dancer (El Gran Senor)
Samantha Miss (Zabeel)
Snitzel (Snippets)
Stratum (Luskin Star)

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

ITapp — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:44:19 GMT

Larry,

Good point, and thanks for the comment. Here's are some of Pivotal's best progeny:

Buzzword (dam by Danehill)
Chorist (Chief Singer)
Excellent Art (Seeking the Gold)
Falco (Unbridled)
Golden Apples (Kaldoun)
Halfway to Heaven (Indian Ridge)
Kyllachy (Song)
Megahertz (Rahy)
Peeress (Primo Dominie)
Regal Parade (Kingmambo)
Saoire (Danehill)
Sariska (Muhtarram)
Siyouni (Danehill)
Somnus (Night Shift)
Virtual (Exit to Nowhere)

re: Poll: Pivotal or Redoute's Choice?

Larry LA — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:42:25 GMT

Pivotal seems like a natural fit with the many good racers of his succeeding over here (Megahurtz, Golden Apples, etc)

He is also a Nureyev sire-line which has certainly been good for Unusual Heat of late, so we know there are mares here that can cross well.