Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:03:17 GMT

Sceptre and Ann-

Thank You so much for the info ! Greatly appreciated !

Shelly

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

sceptre — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:21:33 GMT

Shelly-

I should have also suggested a visit to Keeneland's library. There you will find nearly all the books I mentioned, plus much more. Keeneland's librarians, Cathy Schenck, and Phyllis Rogers are rather extraordinary. Just explain to them what interests you, and they'll personally escort you to the appropriate volumes...Lastly, should it not be practical to visit the library, you can call them for reading (purchase) suggestions.

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ann in Lexington (aka Pedigree Ann) — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:28:25 GMT

Here are a few sites that may be of interest:

www.pedigreequery.com

This site also has a number of interesting boards.

www.tbheritage.com

www.bloodlines.net

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:45:35 GMT

Sceptre , Thank You so much for the information ! I can't believe I missed last weeks question ! I was flipping through the book Champion Horses by Maurizio Bongianni , I can't believe I passed the mare Sceptre No.16 family by the great Persimmon -Ornament by Bend Or ! Her name passed through my mind but did'nt click with the question ! I was totally in the wrong direction ! Right now I'm studying in depth the Bruce Lowe families , very facinating ! I'm wondering what other breeds may have been involved during the development of the American Thoroughbred ?

Much Appriciated,

Shelly

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

sceptre — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:20:57 GMT

Pedigree Shelly-

I'd suggest you begin to accumulate the set entitled "American Race Horses". This salmon colored hardback annual ran from the years 1936-1963. Another smaller series entitled "Famous Horses Of The American Turf" ran from 1930 to at least 1933. There's also the series, "Famous Horses Of The British Turf"-which ran in the 20's and 30's with other iterations thereafter. From these volumes you may begin to appreciate pedigrees inductively (as you learn some racing history). For a deductive approach, I'd suggest you become a student of genetics (with, perhaps first, a primer in cytology). "Abe's Books" is a good source for many of the books mentioned.

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:46:58 GMT

Hi Ann !

Yes , I've bored many people to tears :) Right now I'm studying the Bruce Lowe Families ! I find this facinating ! Where does this love come from ? Not very many people have it . Yes I would be interested ! Do you have any recommended reading or a site that I may not have heard of ?

Shelly

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ann in Lexington (aka Pedigree Ann) — Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:47:57 GMT

Shelley, sounds like we both got our names fair and square - by boring other people with stuff about pedigrees. I belong to a board for hard-core pedigree geeks - talking Hamptonian analysis, deep (8 generation) inbreeding, Diomed male lines meet female lines, etc. theorists. And another board where the Galtonists hold sway. Interested?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 23:56:15 GMT

Ian , Thank You !!

The TB Heritage site , I could read that all day ! They discuss everything in great detail! I did notice where you linked Sceptre to the page ! By the way Pedigree Ian fits you well !

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ian Tapp — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 23:34:10 GMT

From now on, I'm officially granting everyone on this blog permission to use the coveted prefix "Pedigree".

Also, Pedigree Shelly, glad you found the tbheritage site. Did you notice that I had linked to Sceptre's tbheritage page in the post above?

-Pedigree ITapp

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 23:06:45 GMT

For anyone interested , I found a very informative site Thoroughbred Heritage.com ! They give alot of detailed info about the founding family mares !

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:38:50 GMT

Hi Ann,

Congrats on your Award ! This will be the last blog I will post on this " name game " ! First of all , I became interested in pedigrees at the age of Eleven ,My Uncle , Stephen R Mick a trainer at Philadelphia Park is responsible for getting our family into horseracing ! My Grandfather and Father have been owners and I aquired my first broodmare last year ! I have been called Pedigree Shelly by my friends at the track and by my family! I have stacks of BH magazines that I have enjoyed reading and memorizing pedigrees !I have talked to Mr. Andy Williams at Darley about Stallion seasons and other farms as well . Pedigree Shelly and Pedigree Ann are two different names , just like Sir Gallahad III and Sir Gaylord ! These are " screen names " Not TITLES ! Like Queen Elizabeth or the Sir Aga Khan ! I come to this site to relax, enjoy sharing information and having my brain picked by Ian :) This is a professional site not for nitpicking ! Now let's get back to buisness !! Thank You !

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Sumiko — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:13:14 GMT

I'm so excited that I got it right!

Very likely the only time I'll be able to do that.

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Arlen — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:28:45 GMT

All I can say is that challanges like these are like working the New York Times cross word puzzels..but so much more engaging because I love the sport. But, I am amiss at being able to work the NYT crossword puzzel either...

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ann in Lexington — Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:26:49 GMT

Hey SHelly,

I've been Pedigree Ann since 2001. I was awarded the distinction by the Road to Roses message board members, because of the stuff I posted about the Derby candidates' pedigrees. How long have you had the prefix and how did you get it?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:26:56 GMT

Ian , Unfortunately , I came up with the wrong mare but, on the positive side I've learned alot through research trying to find the answer !

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

russf — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:38:16 GMT

Wow, thanks for the great question.

How odd is it that there are two horses, Kicken Kris and Flawlessly, who both won two of the Grade 1 races run last weekend – one by DQ – and who both hail from a female family which produced three champion sires?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

russf — Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:40:07 GMT

I retract my guess of Mother Goose as the Mystery Mare. I located a photo of MG, and this is not her. Also, Mother Goose raced for her breeder - so she wasn't sold as a yearling.

It's also not Natalma, Almahmoud, or Arbitrator. Eliminating the chestnuts in the family, could the mystery mare be Flying Witch or Splendour or Duty?

My final answer - incomplete as it is - for this three part question, and for the bonus question:

mystery mare: ?

grade 1 winner: Flawlessly

grade 1 races: Beverly D(by DQ), Del Mar Oaks

champion sires: Northern Dancer, Halo, Danehill

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:35:33 GMT

Frizette ? Ancestress of Mr. P and Seattle Slew ?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ian Tapp — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:31:29 GMT

Andrea,

Yep, you got it! Well done.

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Andrea Hoogendoorn Bouwkamp — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:46:52 GMT

Ok. Final answer.

Sceptre is the mare.

The G1 descendant is Kicken Kris winner of the Arlington Million and Secretariat stakes.

Champion sires...Buchan, St. Germans, and Petition.

Did I get it?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Andrea Hoogendoorn Bouwkamp — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:35:57 GMT

Race record...Ah.

Sceptre?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Ian Tapp — Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:14:49 GMT

It's not Pocohontas.

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Pedigree Shelly — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:52:26 GMT

I'm not quite finished but, I have a feeling the mare pictured might be Pocohontas ?

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

Russf — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:03:00 GMT

the hint leads me to Mother Goose as the mystery mare

re: Reader Challenge: Mystery Mare

sceptre — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:07:49 GMT

I'm not so sure that Ian was incorrect in his usage here of the word "trace". This word derives from the word "tracing" (ex.-footprint, ex.-animal's footprint). An animal's footprint can either be "traced" backwards or forwards. We have heard the phrases-"traced backward", "traced forward". The context of Ian's puzzle should have one infer a "traced forward" since, for one, a male cannot be the result of a tracing backward in tail-female, while it can in a tracing forward. The photo, combined with the grade-I context also would seem to remove any confusion relative to the direction of "trace". So, I think the context here wins the day. On the other hand, one would normally state that ex.-Buckpasser traces in tail-female to *La Troienne. Whereas the reverse, *La Troienne traces in tail-female to Buckpasser, is a phrase I have never witnessed.