No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Alexandra — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:10:24 GMT

Why dont you all just shut up about the RA-Curlin match not being good. I mean SERIOUSLY!! Curlin is considered one of the most RICHEST race horses of ALL TIME!!! He won Horse of the year in both 2007 AND 2008!!! PLUS!! He won the World Dubi Cup!! The RICHEST RACE IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!! So you know WHAT, The RA-Curlin Match is PERFECT and I wouldnt choose another horse in the WORLD(besides Secretariat, if he were still alive) to breed with Rachel. I mean really, Curlin is almost built as good as Secretariat, in the neck, you wouldnt be able to tell who is who, and they are both a GORGEOUS red!!! So SHUT UP about eh AP Indy, Smarty Jones, etc. crap, because RA and Curlin are the best match in the WORLD!!!!

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Ian Tapp — Sat, 01 Jan 2011 21:11:20 GMT

dianne,

Jess Jackson wants to support his stallion with his best mare. I'm sure Rachel will see proven stallions later in her broodmare career. In the meantime, she may help establish Curlin as a sire.

Ian

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

dianne — Sat, 01 Jan 2011 19:27:15 GMT

Why not get AP Indy while he can still stand?

My God what kind of wonder horse would AP and Rachel create?

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Andrea Hoogendoorn Bouwkamp — Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:17:03 GMT

It is my opinion that AP Indy would be the best cross at the moment for Rachel. She has a duplicate of Sir Gaylord and Cure The Blues traces to Speedwell and NO SECRETARIAT.

Indy is getting up there in years, has classic influence but enough speed to not take it away from her and he is minus Northern Dancer. Perfect IMO. However, we all know it won't happen. Sad.

No matter what, she needs Secretariat blood and there are plenty of horses out there with it.

The current hot freshman sire Bluegrass Cat offers an interesting cross for numerous reason. Mostly because he is inbred to Big Red.

We can only hope.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

EmilyL — Mon, 04 Oct 2010 06:10:17 GMT

STREET CRY!!! A++ rating, 7.38 variant - A Street Cry/RA foal would be able to succeed at the classic distance, have closing speed, etc etc etc etc!!! What is JJ thinking?! Curlin is unproven as a stallion, has less than perfect physical characteristics - RA deserves a proven stallion!!!!

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

dave york — Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:57:36 GMT

Horsefirst has the best match from my perspective. Purim is free of ND and RAN. Reinforces HTR and Ribot and should provide a well balanced foal, athletic faol. Lotta Kim has the female inbreeding that works more often than breeding matches that do not contain the RF. Purim will give you a couple of female inbreeding matches and one is the bottom line of Purim. If you are breeding for many generations and not one race horse, Purim is a great choice. RA offspring versus Z offspring could be a great story line for years/decades to come. I am taking RA offspring but only if JJ does some decent matches. Please no more Curlin. This is a very poor match. If Curlin passes along his bad, bad hoofs none of them will get to the race track. EVER.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Jeanne B. — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 21:46:26 GMT

LET RACHEL RACE! How and why would you keep this athletic and healthy mare from racing - maybe Rachel has not shown us her best. I can't imagine her spending her days in a paddock or stall, never running a race again.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

sceptre — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:12:32 GMT

While I think it's far from the best cross, had I owned both Curlin and Rachel I'd probably breed them to one another. Jackson isn't getting any younger, and he'd probably look forward to this offspring above any other. All that he needed to see (or learn) was that the cross wasn't an obvious no-no. He also knows that mating horses is far from an exact science, so it's not as if he's taking a huge risk with this mating. From the fiscal perspective, Rachel would seem one more likely than most to "help" Curlin's future reputation...As an aside-once again Ian's comments seem right on the mark.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

russf — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:32:04 GMT

This pairing of Curlin and Rachel results in a couple of patterns/crosses that are not seen often in top runners. For one, Smart Strike and his sons have produced over 60 stakeswinners, with 40 of those coming from Northern Dancer-line mares, but not one has Sadlers Wells. Perhaps it hasn’t been tried much. I note, though, that two descend from Nureyev; English Channel and Furthest Land.

Curlin is a product of the Mr. Prospector sire line over the Northern Dancer sire line, while Rachel has this in reverse. Of the nearly 850 graded stakes winners by Mr. Prospector or his sons and grandsons out of a mare from Northern Dancer or his sons and grandsons, or from the many top runners having Northern Dancer over Northern Dancer in the middle, only seven of those also have this Mr.P/ND over ND/Mr.P pattern within the pedigree. Again, maybe it hasn’t been tried all that often. Curiously, the most recent graded stakes winner having this pattern came at Rachel's expense - Persistently is bred this way! Others include Limehouse and Commentator.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Ms WTF — Fri, 01 Oct 2010 03:23:15 GMT

Street Cry gets my vote.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Ian Tapp — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:54:40 GMT

livewire,

Agreed, I also feel that in general it's wise to breed unproven mares to proven stallions. However, the nature of this business, and of life in general, is that fashion dominates wisdom, and even purely fashionable decisions can outperform the wisest decisions.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Jutta — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:26:27 GMT

@Susan's comment - ROFLMAO

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Livewire — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:10:54 GMT

I have to agree with you there Ian. Great mares generally don't produce well and the stallion's or the mare's race record in distance don't automatically negate the chance of producing a horse who can successfully negotiate the classic distance. Your response to Sarah was very interesting. In fact, race record seems to be the least reliable in pointing to a horses ability to get a distance.

Just looking at the Personal Ensign is a perfect example. Persistently, a come from behind sprinter prior to the Personal Ensign is by Smoke Glacken, a sprinter, and was able to win the 10 furlong Personal Ensign while Rachel Alexandra who is by Medaglia D"Oro who won the Travers at 10 furlongs and was twice second in the Breeders Cup Classic, 2nd in the Pacific Classic and Dubai World Cup, and also 2nd in the Belmont Stakes was not able to come home in anything resembling a fashion that indicated that given another chance in a 10 furlong race, the outcome would be any different.

Those crazy genetics. I agree she has a good chances of producing a classic horse, I stand by my opinion that breeding her to proven classic distance sires holds a better chance. Obviously, I certainly have high hopes for Curlin.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Ian Tapp — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:39:56 GMT

livewire,

Any horse will have a maximum preferred distance, so, true, by your definition every horse has distance limitations. In the context of distance requirements for breeding a classic winner, a mare need not have relished 10 or 12 furlongs in order to produce a horse that can stay those distances, just see my response to Sarah above.

Also, referencing raw fractional times between races, let alone races that are decades apart, is misleading and improper, especially considering the way the track played in the Personal Ensign.

I won't even mention the produce record of your example mare, Lady's Secret.

I stand by my opinion that RA displayed more than enough stamina in her racing career to warrant breeding a classic horse, especially with a mate like Curlin.

Ian

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

livewire — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 20:16:43 GMT

Itapp

Yes, distance limitations. 1:12 and change for six furlongs is not a match race. If you want an example of a match race time, try Lady's Secret vs. Precisionist. Lady's Secret and Precisionist are examples of horses who could stretch their speed beyond 9 furlongs. Lady's Secret herself won 3 of her 4 10-furlong races and her splits included 6 furlong fractions of 1:10 and change completing the 10 furlongs in 2:01 and change. Even though 1:12 and change should have left Rachel with enough left Rachel struggled home completing her final quarter in more than 28 seconds. If she had the "stoutness" to complete a 10 furlong race she would have come home in better than 26 seconds. There is no shame in admitting that she has distance limitations. She is and will always be a brilliant miler who could stretch her speed to 9 furlongs defeating all who ran against her. I just think if you bring in some stamina, you have a better chance of producing a classic horse. Isn't that what we are all hoping for, no matter who she is bred to?

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

MyBigRed — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:29:06 GMT

I would breed Rachel to Smart Strike. Remember, his latest winning son, Lookin at Lucky?? Then the next year go for Curlin!

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Lmaris — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:58:17 GMT

Point Given or Smarty Jones????? Maybe if she was an allowance winner, but not as HOY. I agree I'd send her to an established producing stallion first: AP Indy, Street Cry, Smart Sense, Dynaformer or Tiznow. If they want a young sire, I'd go to Bernardini before Curlin.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

nina — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:54:10 GMT

Distorted Humor would be my choice.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

nvsally — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:27:05 GMT

I think Indian Charlie or Smarty Jones would be a great match for Rachel.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

No Clue — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:21:41 GMT

LJ, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about! You are obviously an outsider and not lookin in. All I see is blah blah blah on this blog about whom Rachel should and should not be bred to. Guess what people it's not your decision and whether or not you think JJ is a good person or owner is beside the point. Bloodstock advisors are the ones paid to make good decisions and owners pay them for their opinion. Whether JJ follows the advice of his advisor is out of your control. Blogs are for people that have no life and who want to complain about things that they can not control. Get a dog!!

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Oscar's Scoutmaster — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:38:14 GMT

I agree with erz213...Smart Strike would be my choice for Rachel if I owned her....

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Terry — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:08:27 GMT

I have liked the Curlin/Rachel cross from day one. I would not go with AP Indy simply because there is a lot of that bloodline already available. The market is glutted.

I really like Hat Trick, because that brings back Sunday Silence with Damascus on the bottom. You could also go to Smart Strike or another of his sons, English Channel. Or how about Pleasant Tap? You just never know what will work until you try it.

I just wish I was in a position to own a mare like Rachel and thus have every stallion in the world to choose from.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

Pedigree Ann — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:05:44 GMT

Spectacular Bid probably suffered from the 'too much stamina' syndrome, which may explain why he had more turf SWs than dirt ones and that the only places he had sons who sired decent runners were Australia and New Zealand. In that regard he was somewhat like his damsire, the distance-loving Promised Land. And Bid has had a fair number of good producing daughters, too.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

PF Gorman — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:24:26 GMT

No...No...No... How many great runners never make it as stand-out sires. A bucketful. (Spectacular Bid anyone?) Rachel would be doing Curlin a favor. Why not simply go to Curlin's daddy Smart Strike if JJ is so enamored of the cross. Don't diminish Rachel's chances of becoming a great producer, possibly a breed shaper. Let Curlin prove himself as a sire first. He's still young after all. Rachel should go straight to the top of the leading sires list, and they should be standing in line for her.

re: No Surprise: Rachel to Visit Curlin

quarterhossgal — Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:05:01 GMT

JJ has made a lot of mistakes since purchasing RA, why would we think he would listen to anyone about her broodmare career? Real horsemen know you don't breed a maiden mare to a young stallion. I agree either AP Indy or Street Cry would be a good first mating. She can always go to Curlin after we see how his babies do on the track.