Zenyatta to Bernardini

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Ian Tapp — Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:29:50 GMT

Hi Krystal,

Cool idea... the Rachel foal-Zenyatta foal hypo mating would be the cross of Smart Strike and sons and grandsons/Seattle Slew and sons and grandsons, which is currently a "D" rating based on 3 SW from 59 starters. With those two mares close in the pedigree, you'd hope such a foal would have a genetic advantage, but so far--statistically--this particular nick has a below average strike rate.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Krystal — Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:24:09 GMT

I'm curious about the nick rating for a very hypothetical breeding ---

Let's say Zenyatta's first foal is a filly...

Breed that filly to the Rachel/Curlin colt (hopefully after extremely successful racing careers).

How would that breeding rate? I am secretly hoping Z has a filly because I would love to see this cross happen...

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

immortalzenyatta21 — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:32:15 GMT

It's truly too bad that Claiborne Farm's Boundary has been retired from stud duty. A mating to him would of produced the Rasmussen Factor of Princequillo 5S X 5D !! Also the War Admiral/Man O'War line would of been continued through both of their breeding lines. Boundary's sire line contains Crafty Admiral who is out of the War Admiral mare, Admiral's Lady. Zenyatta's damsire line contain's Hoist the Flag which is out of the War Admiral mare Wavy Navy. A foal out of these two would of been truly something to behold! I am happy with their choice however. Bernardini's conformation is beautiful as well as Zenyatta's! Their foal should be nicely conformed.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

secretariat — Sat, 19 Feb 2011 00:51:08 GMT

next 3 matings for zenyatta should be

1 giant's causeway

2 galileo

3 medaglia doro

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

secretariat — Thu, 10 Feb 2011 03:35:28 GMT

smarty jones would be a good match as well

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Ian Tapp — Tue, 01 Feb 2011 00:46:39 GMT

sodapopkid,

Must a German Shepherd be trained in German?

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Paula Higgins — Mon, 31 Jan 2011 01:10:08 GMT

Money of any amount is not a problem for Jerry and Ann Moss. Dottie was the guiding force behind the decision and she is an expert on breeding. I think everyone is right that AP Indy's declining fertility was an issue. I think Bernadini is an inspired choice. The bottom line is you can make your best informed pick and no one knows how the foal will turn out. Bernadini is drop dead gorgeous. If nothing else, they will have the prettiest horse on the planet. I agree that they are going to keep all her foals. I know I would, and as I said, they certainly don't need the money.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Mike Relva — Sun, 30 Jan 2011 00:15:06 GMT

DEACON

Thanks! Can promise you if I had my way,he wouldn't be allowed to post a single comment. He's counter productive,can't stand him.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

skyfire — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 20:34:03 GMT

Hi, Ian,

I really expected that they would breed to a Lanes End stallion as that is where she is living. I was expecting AP Indy, but was hoping for Candy Ride: I also am partial to Tapit - how would you rank Tapit/Zenyatta as a match? I am no expert but am very interested in reading your comments.

Another emerging sire is War Front: he sure has a speedy colt in The Factor. How would you rate him and Z?

Thanks for an interesting column.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Zen's Auntie — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 16:04:12 GMT

Well I'm jumping in late but I have been reading and thinking about Zen’s first mating a long time.

Just a few comments - I know how wonderful AP is but I would NEVER and I mean NEVER breed to a ridgling. Ridgling or cryptorchid (one undescended testicle) is NOT a characteristic I would ever consider a disregardable negative trait in planning the breeding of an athlete.

TB breeders ignore this FAR too much as far as I can see As well as mouth malocclusions and other congenital undesirable defects including leg defects... go figure.

I see that there is a pretty high rate of cryptorchid horses in AP Indy grandsons too. Hmmm.

Plus logisticly, Conception rate of AP might be decreasing and lets face it she is 17.2 hands and a younger stallion should be able to cover and settle her better.

I do understand that AP Indy is a most successful sire; still I would rather breed to whole horse, every time. So knowing the AP Indy influence is good for making a racehorse considering Zenyatta’s, breeding a son is a good (or better) choice. I liked Pulpit (bit older more proven) but I can easily see Bernardini especially after reading the write up on it and hearing Dottie and the Teams own personal experience with Zen’s sister by Bernardini.I think its smart to take her to a younger stud and get her settled – plus the Mr P 4 back comes in and that’s a positive over old AP.

In evaluation of Bernardinis conformation I think he is extremely balanced and solid horse - He does (however limited he is being young) seem to produce precocious young too and that is a plus when looking to moderate Z's late blooming huge frame.

I did also like Einstein for her but this sounds like a good first choice. I did not like her to GiantsCauseway much, as her ½ brother Souper Saver by GC just doesn’t look like or perform like a Souper star.

Susan we like to wean at 4 to 5 months but of course all you have said is correct - just before 5 months seems to be the time weanlings are ready to be separated from Mom and can handle it socially really well. We feed lots of creep prior to separation so there is little if any weaning lag. But inevitablely, some will have a lull at weaning (especially the youngest in a group). A good healthy eating, kind, sharing babysitter seems to be the bigger help in this.

None of us should worry about Zenyatta and her future if EVER there was a retired racehorse that will be handled with the utmost care its our Girl Z.

Soda your right, there are Lots of Less fashionable introductory stallions (decent bred good ones too) to breed to at reasonable rates – Even proven producers. FL has several good Horses at 5K or less – PA & CA too. But you have to own a decent broodmare and it takes a bunch to get them to weaning.

Or you can go to the weanling auctions and pick up nice but scraggly youngsters even sired by bigger names for dirt cheap it seems. Some may have had a bit of stress or just take a while to fill. Not looking “commercial” kills the price, take them home handle them and feed them up and see what happens. Dreams can come true right?

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

sodapopkid — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 11:44:44 GMT

I hope he doesnt get shipped off to Japan. I hate the thought that our horses get sent away from the states.

I always have wondered, How does these horses get used to hearing people talk to them in the English language, then get shipped off to these foreign countries, and have to hear them speak to them in Janpanese or any other foreign language, Can anyone elaborate on this? seems pretty weird to me. I cant understand Janpanese without a translator, I wonder if horses have the same problem.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Steve O — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:29:33 GMT

Glad to see Bernadini,yet I am a Giant's Causeway fan. Curious about using a cross within the Kingmambo line.

Any comment on the bad ankles of the Bold Ruler line?

At 6 she has many foals to come and agree with the year off tween foals. All Hail the Queen.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Ian Tapp — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 06:49:44 GMT

sodapopkid,

I think $2,500 is fair value and will allow him to be competitive. Gutsy, consistent racehorse, good black type in the family, same tail female as Saffron Walden, Henrythenavigator, Malibu Prayer, Silent Screen, etc.

Still, Yonaguska/Fortunate Prospect doesn't scream commercial, so the fee reflects the market reality. Hopefully he gets a nice book of mares that suit him well, and I'm sure those breeding to race will be very intrigued.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

sceptre — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 04:02:53 GMT

As to the tangential topic of pros vs cons of breeding mares every year- I tend to side with those who feel it better to give them an occasional year off. While it may be true that, all else equal, they may have more difficulty in conceiving following an off year this alone is not enough (for me) to practice the every year routine. Also, what may be observed in "nature"-"natures way"- is not, in itself, proof positive of the ideal- or an "absolute truth". Fact is, many mares undergo various degrees of physical stress during their last trimester, ever worsening as they near term. Easy for many to ignore this, and rationalize that it's nature's way. Some of these physical stresses can take their toll through the years, whereas an occasional year off can often help heal some of the damage rendered. Oftentimes it isn't the pregnancy itself that caused the initial insult-ex. a mare prone to lymphangitis- but it can be the pregnancy that exacerbates the problem and renders her ever more susceptible to a worsening situation in later years and/or later pregnancies. An occasional year off may to some extent allow her vasculature to partially heal/rebound. Again, this is but one example, but the dynamic could well hold true for a host of other maladies, some less apparent than others.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

sodapopkid — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 03:02:32 GMT

Ian, Are my eyes decieving me? Musket Man is only $2,500 for a mating? Gosh, anyone can afford him, your regular joe on the street can afford to have MM for their dam's sire. What gives Ian, He always came in the money in his races, and we have to give it to him, he was never a slouch in his races. So, why such a low stud fee?

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Criminal Type — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 01:02:17 GMT

Yankeetrev, What's your Oopinion of Gio Ponte ? You know, the Eclipse award winning Turf horse who is no slouch on dirt either. Because he looked Zenyatta in the eye and it scared him into second. I know this is a what if, but if you watch the 2010 classic, Zenyatta had passed Blame one or two strides past the wire. I believe had she not been squeezed from BOTH sides at the break we would not be having this conversation. The fact is Zenyatta is always going to have detractors like Drayneigh. Why ? Because she was a charismatic winner. Is that unreasonable? Of course it is, but it's true none the less. It's like people hating Donald Trump because he is rich. I think you get my point. While i understand what your saying about pedigree getting more attention when selecting a stallion for a mare then their statistic's, Isnt't that the way it has always been done ? You match the pedigrees to stallions who best suit your mare then from those selected stallions you chose the on who fits her best in those other areas such as distance won at, physical charactoristics, running style and possibly progeny performances. I am no expert, but as I pointed out in an earlier post, you can bet the farm that the Mosses are getting advise from the best bloodstock people in the business.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Mike Relva — Sat, 29 Jan 2011 00:19:35 GMT

HONG KONG FUEY

I agree regarding QR being a miler, many times mentioned this myself in the past year. Ron Ellis stated the same prior to the Breeders. Has brilliant speed,but distance limitations.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Deacon — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 23:45:38 GMT

Mike Relva;

Well said about Draynay. He should be barred from the Bloodhorse blogs. Nothing but negativity and sarcasam every time he posts a blog. This is just getting tired................

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Hong Kong Fuey — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:56:40 GMT

Ian,

1. No.Zenyatta has plenty of stamina on her own.

2. Yes.Most of the time that's how genealogy works,there's always exceptions to the rule as we both know.Quality Road was a speedy horse who dominated meager competition up to 9f,but shortened stride going 10f against top flight company,these types usually re-produce themselves at best.

3. Yes! Ha! You know what I mean.! 10f was just too much for him.

PS. in hindsight,QR was a top class Miler and Outstanding mares like Zenyatta rarely re-produce themselves on the track.It would be a shame if this hypothetical mating turned out an offspring that couldn't get the Classic distances,that's why Bernardini is a good match.He could carry his speed at least the 10f. BTW- AP Indy would've been my 1st choice.

Thanks.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Ian Tapp — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:55:26 GMT

Hong Kong Fuey,

I have drawn the following conclusions from your post:

1. Zenyatta lacks stamina. To remedy this, she must be bred to a stallion who won at 10f.

2. A racehorse's max winning distance dictates the max limit for his offspring. This is how genetics and inheritance work.

3. Quality Road, a MG1SW at 9f and MG1SP at 10f, would be unable to win at 10f even if aided by a motorized vehicle.

Thanks,

Ian

P.S. Just kidding...

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

JAJ — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:24:26 GMT

Easy Goer,

Susan from VA is correct--you don't even have to increase the feed on a mare until the last three months of the pregnancy and the foal is pretty much weaned by 3 or four months of age.

You cannot compare horses to humans. First, women are the sole source of nutrition for a baby until almost 6 months. Foals are eating solid food pretty soon after being born.

Also, nursing human mothers do not get pregnant very easily at all. Most have to have fully weaned their baby before they will begin to ovulate. Horses on the other hand come into season 9 to 12 days after foaling and are very fertile then. Nature making it difficult for women to get pregnant while breast feeding while making it very easy for mares to get pregnant should give you a hint that pregnancy and feeding a baby just isn't as hard on a mare as they are on a human.

Broodmares have a wonderful life. When did pregnancy suddenly become a disease in our society?

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Hong Kong Fuey — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:13:23 GMT

Perfect match!

As long as they don't mate her to the overrated Quality Road who couldn't get the 10f riding on the back of a pick-up.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Susan from VA — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:20:34 GMT

Easy Goer - You are very misinformed about the demands of breeding on the mare's body. Equine and human reproductive physiology are not identical. Furthermore, Zenyatta is a fully mature mare - not a two-year old. The time of greatest demand on the dam is during lactation - especially the first three months. The first "third" of pregnancy is relatively non-demanding on the mare's body. You really don't need to up her feed until the last "third" of pregnancy. There really is no reason to keep a foal on its dam past the first 3 or 4 months of life. After the first 3 months, the quality of the mare's milk falls off rapidly, and the foals begin getting their nutrition elsewhere - grass, creep feed, etc. The most demanding time on the mare's body from nursing is in the first 3 months or so - the time during which the pregnancy is the least demanding. Actually, the best time to wean the foal is at 3 - 4 months. You don't have to worry about the foal's "mental health," if there is a friendly sane gelding or mare to serve as babysitter and other foals to play with. You don't have to worry about the foal's physical health because it is no longer getting the majority of its nutrition from its dam. Please don't anthropomorphize.

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Mike Relva — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:47:43 GMT

DRAYNAY

As always you bring neg garbage when Zenyatta is mentioned. You shouldn't talk about "couldn't win the big one" when someone as yourself is used to failure on a regular basis!

re: Zenyatta to Bernardini

Mike Relva — Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:43:53 GMT

HRSELDY

You're joking,right? This is a great match.