A King on Any Surface

re: A King on Any Surface

Ian Tapp — Tue, 17 May 2011 13:08:51 GMT

sceptre,

Like I said, I made some generalizations, but the main factors are clearly footing, kickback, pace, and biomechanics.

Obviously these issues don't separate only turf and dirt, but varying conditions within every surface type.

re: A King on Any Surface

sceptre — Tue, 17 May 2011 03:49:40 GMT

Ian,

The conformational/physiologic/mental reasons why some are better on turf and others better on dirt remain a mystery to me. I don't deny that such causes exist (and have, in part, genetic basis), but I've never been satisfied by any explanations (including yours) offered. I think that, perhaps, some of the experienced American riders could shed some informative light on the issue, but I can't recall reading or hearing anything from them on the matter. Kickback may at times be a part of it, but this doesn't answer why some top dirt runners have performed poorly when switched to the turf. I don't buy the "top of the ground" argument, because so many European runners prefer various degrees of "cut" in the ground, and are often withdrawn when the course is truly "top of the ground". It is also likely true that what makes a top European turfer can be quite different for an American turf course turfer. Pedigree is often a fairly good predictor, but this evades the central question. As I see it, the main differences (relative to racehorses) between turf and dirt are the kickback, and the plant- slide-go vs the plant-go, but the physiologic, etc. attributes which cause one to be better suited to one surface rather than the other remain a mystery to me. Even when it comes to pedigrees, there are many variations on the theme-we should not strictly lump them into turf and non-turf pedigrees-the recent Derby winner a good indication of this-, for example, the Blushing Groom male line has historically proven to be very versatile; Candy Stripes being a recent poster boy. One of the main faults of breeders is their desire (need) to pigeon hole-excuses them from researching, learning-they hope its easy, when in fact it's otherwise, and much may be beyond any of us.

re: A King on Any Surface

Ian Tapp — Tue, 17 May 2011 02:39:49 GMT

Hi Heather,

The answer to your question is very multifactoral. Difficulties going turf to dirt could be chalked down to not handling the footing, kickback, pace, or any combo of those. From a physiology standpoint, turf horses often have that "skip over the top of the ground" action, whereas dirt horses tend to hit a bit harder to dig into the dirt. That's an extreme generalization of stride rate/efficiency, but certainly biomechanics have a lot to do with it.

re: A King on Any Surface

heather hrymak — Fri, 13 May 2011 12:30:41 GMT

thank-you so much for your articles.I look forward to reading them.can I ask what conformation traits make it difficult for a horse to move from turf to dirt?Thank-you again for your wisdom. Heather Hrymak

re: A King on Any Surface

ManO'WarMike — Fri, 13 May 2011 02:53:58 GMT

Ian Tapp...Hopefully he will remember Smarty Jones winning by 12 lengths in the Preakness, another stupid move by Stewart Elliott, John Servis should have taken him off the horse right then and maybe he would have won the Triple Crown. Gave Smarty possibly the worse ride ever in the Belmont.

re: A King on Any Surface

Ian Tapp — Thu, 12 May 2011 13:27:09 GMT

Joe,

You seem really excited about the prospect of Animal Kingdom not only winning the Preakness, but setting a track record while doing so.

Although he was 2 3/5 seconds (roughly 14 lengths) off the Churchill 10f track record last Saturday, what if he's 5 lengths clear in the stretch of the Preakness...do you think John V.--the good rider that he is--will be pushing him for the track record or easing him down to preserve him for the Belmont?

re: A King on Any Surface

Joe — Thu, 12 May 2011 12:04:31 GMT

German blood, I will be hoping that Animal Kingdom can steal the Preakness and while doing it set a track record. (Even if I am from polish makings) Horse racing in the United States needs a triple crown winner to bring fans back and to get the new generations focused on horse racing. Every trainer and jockey can only wish that they get a chance to run for the second leg of the triple crown and then the third leg the Belmont Stakes with and on the same horse and knowing that they have to win that race. All of horse racing should be behind Animal Kingdom and his posse to see if he can get the job done. After he wins the Preakness in record time, Belmont Park crowd will be bigger then Woodstock come race day for the Belmont Stakes. I live up by Saratoga New York and Iexpect to see John V. going for the Travers and so does everyone else. The question is come Preakness day what spot on the track will John V. have to make his move because when he does there will be no looking back.

re: A King on Any Surface

sceptre — Wed, 11 May 2011 19:27:26 GMT

Regarding what some consider "the great German breeding program" allow me to add: Urban Sea (dam of Sea The Stars, Galileo, etc.), for some, is the poster girl of the "great" German lines. Well, Urban Sea decends tail female to Asterblute (Pharis-Aster). Pharis was stolen from Boussac (France) by the Nazi's during WWII, and Asterblute was conceived during Pharis' "imprisonment" in Nazi Germany. Had Bousaac not later relented (in the 70's) and allowed some of these Pharis offspring registration in the stud book, there wouldn't have been any Urban Sea to begin with. More importantly, without a confiscated Pharis, German breeding could not have held an Urban Sea as example of their breeding prowess. Pharis was certainly not their product, and otherwise would have never seen German soil.

re: A King on Any Surface

sceptre — Wed, 11 May 2011 02:44:01 GMT

I've noticed this for a while on several blog sites. On each rare occasion when a major stakes is won by a horse which possesses some German "blood", immediately many begin extolling the virtues of the German breeding program. Fact is, over the past half century relatively few German bred sires or female lines have made much of an impact. Overall, German breds have performed rarely, or poorly in high level international competition. Let's stop focusing on anecdotes and instead see the big picture. Many say they are sounder. It's easy to appear sounder when you're slower.

re: A King on Any Surface

ManO'WarMike — Wed, 11 May 2011 01:11:12 GMT

Thank you Ian Tapp. Just read Steve Haskin's Derby recap and ANIMAL KINGDOM'S last half mile and last quarter was both second fasterst ever behind Big Red, very impressive.

re: A King on Any Surface

Ian Tapp — Wed, 11 May 2011 00:46:04 GMT

ManO'WarMike,

Word is that Master of Hounds is pointing to the Belmont Stakes.

re: A King on Any Surface

ManO'WarMike — Wed, 11 May 2011 00:08:12 GMT

MASTER OF HOUNDS was my Derby horse, was afraid he might get to far back early, and the pace was not as fast as I wanted, was the fastest of all down the lane. From 15th to 5th. Has anyone heard anything about him, his future plans?

Don't overlook this very fresh and peaking horse ANIMAL KINGDOM, who is in very good hands wouldn't it be so crazy if a horse like this got the Tripe Crown in this year with a weak field of 3 year olds...

re: A King on Any Surface

Al Bowe — Tue, 10 May 2011 23:12:18 GMT

We all know the saying... "The proof is in the pudding". Well just take a look at Barry's record of late- A Breeders Cup winner with Pluck and now the winner of the Kentucky Derby. Both with lots of international blood in the pedigree (Pluck is out of a South African bred mare).

His female line is a strong as it gets, loaded with real top-shelf racehorses. The family is among the best in Europe and a major produce or very good stallions. And Leroi himself was made from the same mold, his race record speakd or itself. This is only the beginning of the sire history Leroidesanimaux, his float back to Kentucky is just a matter of time. He will produce sound racehorses that will run on turf, dirt, synthetic...and water if necessary.

re: A King on Any Surface

So Cal Racer — Tue, 10 May 2011 18:43:09 GMT

Pedigree Ann, it's good that I got you doing exercise..lol. :) but seriously let me put in simple the fact of the matter is lookin at Animal Kingdom PPs show that he was 'four wide at three furlong'and six wide on the stretch and start to drifting out late. made a good run to win by 1'2 3/4 length. not bad.. but if you think he can win the Preakness and Belmont you just might get dissapointed. I'm saying simply the winner of Preakness or Belmont is NOt Animal Kingdom. simply put this is not your Triple Crown winner, better wait for next year Kentucky Derby.

re: A King on Any Surface

Alan Porter — Tue, 10 May 2011 15:43:47 GMT

Hi TTC,

Thanks for the notes. That's why I described him as a "candidate" for the most international.

Canonero II's sire, Pretendre, I believe might have been the first shuttle sire. He was English-bred, but sired Canonero II from a U.S. crop, out of a U.S. bred mare (who had run in England).

Gato Del Sol, as you say, was by a Chilean sire, out of a U.S. mare.

Tomy Lee was a bit different, as he was actually foaled in Europe with a European - English/French - background.

I wondered whether Animal Kingdom is the first U.S. foaled KY Derby with two imported parents (Tomy Lee's parents were imported subsequent to his win).Citation, I think is the most recent U.S. foaled KY Derby winner out of a mare from Europe.Around the same era, Determine, Dark Star and Hoop Jr. all had imported sires and broodmare sires, as did several earlier horses.

Pensive was by Hyperion (stood in England) out of an English mare, but was imported "in utero" so was a U.S. born Derby winner with two foreign parents.

Cavalcade (1934) and Reigh Count (1928) were U.S. conceived and born out of imported parents (from England). Broker's Tip (1933) was out of a mare imported from France. Omar Khayyam (1917) was foaled in England (only he and Tomy Lee are winners born outside of North America - Sunny's Halo and Northern Dancer being Canadian). George Smith (1917) was U.S. born and conceived with two parents imported from England.Plaudit (1898) was out of a mare imported from England, as was Fonso (in 1880).

Unless I've missed one with a quick scan Animal Kingdom is the first with parents imported from two different continents. He's the first out of an imported mare since Citation (not including Tomy Lee whose dam was imported after the fact).

re: A King on Any Surface

Pedigree Ann — Tue, 10 May 2011 15:17:44 GMT

So Cal Racer, trying to parse your comment is quite an exercise. Are you saying that a horse named Triple Crown will win the Preakness and Belmont? (I remember a colt named Triple Crown from the mid-70s; won two Derby preps at Santa Anita, second in a division of the Wood Memorial, 17th in the Centennial Derby.) Or are you saying that Animal Kingdom's late kick won't be as effective over the surfaces at Pimlico and Belmont? Dozens of winners of Triple Crown races were sired by or out of imported stock that never ran on dirt. Belmont winners Hourless and Gallant Man were foreign-breds; Citation's dam was imported, so were the sires of Gallant Fox, Whirlaway, and Winning Colors. Whether or not a 'turf-bred' animal will take to dirt if a lottery.

re: A King on Any Surface

So Cal Racer — Tue, 10 May 2011 03:22:16 GMT

Interesting article, but as good as it sound Animal Kingdom winning the Kentucky Derby is a suspect for one he only run five starts and the three is on Syntetic not as good as everybody thinks. congrats to the connection of Animal Kingdom winning the Derby, is it the Triple Crown? better think again. the real Triple Crown will win the Preakness and Belmont is Not Animal Kingdom..

re: A King on Any Surface

John T — Tue, 10 May 2011 02:20:04 GMT

Eighteen of the nineteen runners in the Derby were related to Northern Dancer, the only one that was'nt was Nehro who ran a fine race to finish second. Animal Kingdom is an improving sort and there is lots of stamina on the dam side so it will be interesting to see how he does in the other two legs of the triple crown. At this time it looks like Master Of Hounds will be back for the Belmont.

re: A King on Any Surface

joel zamzow — Tue, 10 May 2011 00:47:42 GMT

Animal Kingdom was one of the choices for the Derby because of his stoutness. I think some of his success may in large part come from his German bred female family. As you know,for breeding stock to be certified to breed in Germany, they can't race on Lasix, Bute,etc. Generation after generation, that may make a real difference.

re: A King on Any Surface

Donavon — Mon, 09 May 2011 22:52:25 GMT

This Kentucky Derby, won by Animal kingdom, was not

really what was the expected result..however, Animal Kingdom

did win, and this is the end of the story!!

before ending, I have to leave a few last licks.

(1)The connections of Uncle Mo, lied..they pumped up this

horse,and when he lost the Wood memorial , they found an excuse..gastrointestinal sickness, that might be true, judging from the Todd pletcher, he is no saint, Just another

Rick Dutrow Jr, he have been caught as well, most of them uses steroids, theyb are all liars, Barry irwin is on the money..enough said..

re: A King on Any Surface

Joe — Mon, 09 May 2011 22:38:08 GMT

John V. and Graham Motion have two weeks two find the right spot on the Pimlico race course that Animal Kingdom has to push the button. Animal Kingdom was pulling away at a mile and a quarter and nobody was coming after him so the Belmont looks real good. The Preakness is the question mark and the shorter tight turns. The hind legs of Animal Kingdom are huge and this is one strong horse. He was the stongest looking horse in the Kentucky Derby, this is just the start of greatness. Graham Motion must now know that this horse could set a track record at the Preakness. Animal Kingdom just keeps coming at you and can run all day so his move must now be started at the three quarter pole without a doubt and Ruler On Ice is will be coming on for second place. Animal Kingdom must make his move at the perfect time and John V. is the one jockey that I would want on my horse and it is about time that this has come Johns way and he is such a talented jockey. Animal Kingdom is big time able to win the triple crown with John V. on board. A Donnaguska type move to win the derby but now the same move but at at a different track and a little early around the three quarter of a mile marker.

re: A King on Any Surface

Ian Tapp — Mon, 09 May 2011 21:05:19 GMT

Springsmom83,

Barbaro had won the Holy Bull (sloppy) and Florida Derby (fast) prior to the KY Derby, so it was his third start on the surface. Animal Kingdom was making his dirt debut in the Derby (he'd only ran on synthetic and turf previously).

re: A King on Any Surface

Springsmom83 — Mon, 09 May 2011 20:52:39 GMT

I would also like to point out another recent Derby winner that started out on dirt, Barbaro.

re: A King on Any Surface

TTC — Mon, 09 May 2011 19:00:46 GMT

Love your recent blog and I recognize the international flavor of Kentucky Derby winner Animal Kingdom, but I would like to point out that there have been other Derby winners with foreign appeal. I have not done extensive research, but 1959 winner Tomy Lee was bred in England and is by English-bred Tudor Minstrel and his broodmare sire, Brantome, was bred in France.

1971 winner Canonero II raced in Venezuela and is by English bred and raced Pretendre and his dam, Dixieland II, raced in England.

1982 Ky. Derby winner Gato del Sol, was by Cougar II, bred and raced in Chile. I merely wanted to call your attention to the past and thank you for your interesting post.