Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

sceptre — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:39:00 GMT

Worksoplad:

Sorry, just read now your post. Can't agree with your take-and I have had legal training. So, have you ever heard the term "false leader"? By your analysis, the advertised "word" would have no legal ramifications. The issue here is a bit more complex-"custom of the trade", etc., but I do think such a case would be heard, and it's up in the air who would prevail. As far as my second point-re- Repole's "rights"; it would depend somewhat on what interest he still possesses, and his agreement with them. My guess is, though, that he would prevail in a legal action.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Worksoplad — Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:42:15 GMT

Sceptre: It's basic American and English contract law. The advertisement is merely an "invitation to treat", not a binding offer which is able to be converted into a binding contract merely by communicating acceptance to the seller/offeror. You made the "offer" to breed at $35,000 which, under the law, Ashford had the option of accepting, rejecting, or making a counter-offer, which it did.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:31:24 GMT

sceptre,

Obviously the jury's still out on Invasor. He's an interesting prospect, but I wouldn't expect to hear much from him until he has mid-year 3YOs and 4YOs. He'd seem to fold into your approach of taking time with your racehorses. The ones I've seen at the sale look like you'd expect--well made, but immature horses that should do best the older they get, beyond a mile.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Arif — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:44:22 GMT

A good mating with a big difference in age is Dynaformer with Farda Amiga. By the way, Farda deserves a good mating.

Regards

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

sceptre — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:59:56 GMT

Goldengate:

I very much agree with you, Kent Barnes at Shadwell is a credit to his profession. He goes out of his way to be gracious, friendly, and informative each time I visit their stallions. Much the same can be said for Aidan O'Meara at Hill N' Dale. The stallion and farm managers in Central KY have always been a very competent and admirable group-some of the best people I've ever met. Too bad this often isn't the case with some of the higher ups and/or those more involved in the business end...I wish Shadwell well, like several of their stallions. The farm is less commercially oriented than many, so their stallions sometimes don't get as much exposure/traffic. Coincidentally, right before reading your post I was taking another "look" at Invasor. Saw him when he first went to stud, and really liked his look and demeanor. He has gotten off to a very slow start, but I'm trying to rationalize my way into breeding to him. Would appreciate Ian's take.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Goldengate — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:27:36 GMT

Hi,

This is very interesting topic as I have two older mares whom I am planning on breeding to younger stallions.

Also I wanted to mention to Sceptre and others that I am sending a mare to be bred to Shadwell Farms stallion Albertus Maximus who is complimentary breeding to an approved mare. The stallion manger Kent Barnes approved my mare only after asking concerning her pedigree, conformation and race record. Shadwell also does not board mares there and send out a form giving out local boarding farms.

I had never dealt with Shadwell before but after the way they treated me I will be sending mares back to them again.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Joanna from TX — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:53:02 GMT

I see a comment on Facebook that a mare named Dootsie (by Dixieland Band outof Skybox (says mare is 1/2 sister to Stopshoppingmaria) is booked to Mo this coming spring. Well geezzz...Dixland Band is Mo's greatgrandpa. So Ian, maybe this is the matchup first mentioned? Now, in the horse business, I guess this is called inbreeding, but in showdogs, this would be considered linebreeding. Either way, you don't want to double up on traits and genes that aren't REALLY good.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:44:18 GMT

sceptre,

I can understand your frustration about the situation with Uncle Mo. However, he's popular, and this sort of thing happens every season with popular stallions. Just remember last year with War Front and Congrats, or a couple years ago with Medaglia d'Oro...there are points in time where these stallions are over-booked and the law of supply and demand takes over. There are always stallions that you "can't get to for less than x..."

What if they just told you, "sorry, he's full." At least you still have the option at $50,000.

And of course Ashford is going to make accommodations for breeders who support their other stallions. Sure, it doesn't seem fair for the breeder with a single mare, but this is why they paid big money to get Uncle Mo, so they can lift their entire roster. All farms do this.

I'm not sure it's realistic to expect farms to honor an earlier-published fee when demand shifts. I mean, you can breed to most stallions for less than their published fees, and obviously breeders don't protest that the published fee is inaccurate when they're getting a discount.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Cassandra.says — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:29:29 GMT

Round Table had an antique pedigree -- the majority of his 5th generation coming from the 1800s, ranging from 1880 to 1909.

A good place to go mining for striking matings.

Princequillo's and Round Table's offspring were relative to absolute outcrosses by default.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

sceptre — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 04:47:55 GMT

Ian,

I know it's off topic, but your response about the Unclo Mo fee raise afforded me a small "opening". You say "it's not too surprising" they raised his 2012 fee, since he has proved to be popular. I'm not so sure that I'd agree with their ethics, not to mention the legalities. There may just be a lot of issues raised in this, and let's not forget that they continue to advetise his fee at $35,000 lf.-afterall, there are laws about such advertising practices. So here's how it went down: I called the farm last Monday to discuss booking my mare. I knew he was a near perfect fit for her pedigree-wise (and, likely, she for him), felt he would fit her well conformationally, but first asked them for some feedback relative to Uncle Mo's conformation, size, etc. What I then heard esentially confirmed my decision to book to him. My next words to the Ashford nominations agent were: "So he's $35,000 live foal"-at which point I was told that the fee is now $50,000. I retorted-"...when did this occur?", and was told it began the previous weekend. Throughout our conversation, up till then, my mare (or her credentials) was never mentioned. I asked if would be possible to get the fee for $35,000, and was told that this might be accomplished if I bred a few mares to their other stallions which stand for a similar fee. I told him that I had only the one mare and attempted to relate her credentials. He stopped me cold, and said who she was didn't matter. Our conversation soon then ended. Well, I'm not privy to Mr. Repole's deal with them, but I'd venture that he still retains some ownership in Uncle Mo. I'm fairly certain that Mr. Repole doesn't own much, if anything, of the aforesaid other Ashford stallions in the 30's fee range. So, it is just possible that Ashford's practices as they relate to the sale of Uncle Mo seasons may be geared to Ashford's benefit, and to Mr. Repole's detriment, for example (1): Mr. Repole may share in the total Uncle Mo stallion fee pool. So, if some seasons that could now be sold for 50 are instead sold for 35-should the buyer also breed to other Ashford stallions-Mr. Repole stands to lose his share of the difference (50 vs 35) in stud fees. (2): As stated before; Ashford's representative expressed no interest in the identity of the proposed mare for Uncle Mo. While Ashford may be willing to sacrifice somewhat the quality of Uncle Mo's initial book for greater numbers to their other stallions, this would not appear to be in the best interests of Uncle Mo or Mr. Repole's interest in Uncle Mo...Should Mr. Repole get wind of this blog entry, and wish to contact me, please oblige him with my personal information. You can also extend this courtesy to an Ashford representative as well.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 01:48:47 GMT

Hey sceptre,

The breeder actually didn't bring up the age at all; I just thought it interesting that (a) she was still producing and (b) the chosen stallion was so young/unproven. The age gap caught my eye simply as a point of interest.

I hadn't heard about the unofficial fee increase for Uncle Mo, but I did hear he has around 120 contracts already so I guess it's not too surprising.

Good points you bring up about the biology with older mares/stallions. Like you say, lots of variables at play. It would be interesting to see some good thoroughbred-specific studies on age.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

sceptre — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:35:38 GMT

Hi Ian,

Not sure what motivated your breeder's query/concerns. Would he/she not bothered to have contacted you had the proposed stallion (for her aged mare) been older? By that I mean, is this breeder more "doubtful" solely because of the disparity in age?..That said, it might be productive to compare results from matings of young stallions with aged mares vs those from aged stallions with young mares. All oocytes are created at one time, at an early age, while spermatogenesis is an ongoing process throughout male life. There is some evidence and conjecture to suggest increased dna alteration to sperm cells as the process of spermatogenesis is repeated through time. On the other hand, there is the issue of oocyte degeneration (? dna alteration) over time. And, yes, unfortunately, there is also the uterine environmental changes to also muddy the waters. Still, a reasonable study might shed some light-particularly should the aged stallion prove to be the weaker link-but, I realize there are even more variables to contend with here...That aside, I feel that mere age disparity is a non issue...Allow me to add that as your breeder was dithering about whether or not to breed her mare to Uncle Mo the good folks at Ashford raised Uncle Mo's fee to $50,000 (from $35,000)-yet he remains "advertised" at the $35,000 rate. And this raise comes from the farm, itself, not some individual shareholders-due to his apparent popularity (as is, for example, the case with Candy Ride). Perhaps this is worthy of some discussion.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Helen — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 01:26:18 GMT

I have a 3-yr old chestnut Hansel filly.......any ideas?

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Alan Porter — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 13:54:19 GMT

If we are looking at generational offsets, you can now have a 6 x 2 inbreeding to Mr. Prospector (born 1970) by sending one of his daughters to Sidney's Candy or Twirling Candy (born 2007).

If you wanted the biggest age offset in six generations, you could try Sidney's Candy and Twirling Candy with a mare by Wild Again. Youngest in six gens of the foal as far as one of the sons of Candy Ride is concerned would be Mr. P, and oldest in six gens of the foal through Wild Again would be Gainsborough born in 1915, so a difference of 55 years in the youngest and oldest in six generations.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 02:52:36 GMT

Great example, mz. Gate Dancer's mating is definitely an example of the "hybrid vigor" concept.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

mz — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 23:08:10 GMT

Whoa! If you want the generational gap between sire and broodmare sire, back to Gate Dancer. Sovereign Dancer was 1975 and Sun Gate's sire, Bull Lea was 1935! 40 years! (there's a joke there, somewhere)

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 22:12:49 GMT

Rob,

Yes, there's two ways of looking at it. Initially I was looking for age difference between sire and dam, but your number is more interesting from a "generational gap" aspect, as the difference between sire and broodmare sire is a better example of this. (a 5YO Private Account mare vs. a 25YO Private Account mare...they are still both Private Account mares)

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Rob Tribbett — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:59:50 GMT

The recently retired Trappe Shot is 25 years - Tapit (2001) and Private Account (1976)

Street Sense is 18 years - Street Cry 1998 x Dixieland Band 1980

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

mz — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:45:38 GMT

Unfuwain - Northern Dancer (1961) and Height of Fashion (1979) - "only" 18 years difference. Good sire himself.

I also remember what a big deal it was that Sun Gate (1964), one of the last daughters of Bull Lea, had Gate Dancer in 1981 -- the sire was Sovereign Dancer (1975).

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

sgillies — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:15:50 GMT

Debussy (IRE) is a 2006 son of 1980 Diesis (GB) and 2001 Opera Comique (FR) -- a span of 21 years between sire and dam. Debussy won the 2010 Arlington Million (gr. IT).

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Robert — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:29:27 GMT

Badgettland Rose....the dam of my Fly So Free mare. Her sire (Tom Rolfe-1962) was 19 years older than her dam (Danseuse Rose-1981). She was not a top racemare, but her unusual pedigree make her worth mentioning.

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Ian Tapp — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:08:43 GMT

Nice...

Lear's Princess, Lear Fan (1981)-Pretty City (1998) = 17 years

Astronomer Royal, Danzig (1977)-Sheepscot (1994) = 17 years

re: Big Age Gaps Make for Interesting Matings

Byron Rogers — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 17:23:48 GMT

Lear's Princess sprung to mind.....Astronomer Royal?