Deconstructing Black Caviar

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

Gaspare — Sun, 06 May 2012 08:47:33 GMT

I think what we are forgetting here is the Vain factor to go so far back in her pedigree I feel is irelevant and also her dam being unraced so we did not get to see what type of race horse she would have been, she has also left 2 other winners 1 with the same sire as Black Caviar the other by Casino Prince, I believe that she is High Class producer, as was Eight Carat she was unraced also, black caviar in her racing here in australia she has this stride that when she quickens she takes 2 and the rest take 3, I feel that if you sent Helsinge to Bel Esprit you would get a high class horse but not to the class of Black Caviar.

I am doing a experiment for myself as i would like to breed back to seattle slew to see if i can reproduce him but am very limted with his sire sons in australia have sent a mare to Super saver a great grandson.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

John T — Thu, 23 Feb 2012 04:40:52 GMT

Sorry to hear about the passing of Royal Academy,he give us

lots of memories as a racehorse and he done the best he could as a sire.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

John T — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:49:18 GMT

Hi Alan

I can understand what you are saying that Royal Academy

and Shadeed were as fast as Nijinsky got but all it takes

is one good nick on the sire or dam side to come up with a

brilliant racehorse like Black Caviar. I know most experts

favour the dam side but as you know Pretty Polly was one of

the greatest racemares of all time yet she never produced

anything even half as good as herself. There is nothing written in stone to suggest that the same won,t happen to

Black Caviar or even Zenyatta or Rachel Alexandra for that

matter.The good news is that it can happen for example Meld

won the same important races as a 3 year old that Pretty Polly did,1000 Guineas,Epsom Oaks,Coronation Stakes,and St.

Leger and she went on to produce the 1966 Epsom Derby winner

Charlottown. If I may just add the following to things that

are mentioned in this article, I think the ride that Lester

Piggott give Royal Academy to win the Breeders Cup Mile was

one of his best ever mainly because of his age at the time.

It is mentioned at 3 Royal Academy won The Tetrarch Stakes,a

race that of course is named for''The Spotted Wonder''who

only ran as a 2 year old.He was a very bad actor at serving

a mare but we are forever grateful that he sired the very fast Mumtaz Mahal whose daughters went on to play such a

major part in the stud book. The Tetrarch was actually the

official title of Herod The Great at the time of Jesus.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

Alan Porter — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 14:24:45 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

From what we are learning in the course of our studies for Performance Genetics it wouldn't be a shock if a gene variant for a phenotypical characteristic (such as that for a color marking) frequently travelled with a variant that was a positive for performance.

I'm sure that you are right re Gorytus - the sister, Terpsichorist, could run all day. The Minstrel, a very physically different three-parts-brother to Nijinsky II could get a sprinter, but from memory, Royal Academy and Shadeed, who both had their biggest wins at a mile were about as good as the fast Nijinsky II's got.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

John T — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:52:29 GMT

Sceptre

I was'nt thinking about anything that Nijinsky bred but rather the influence that Nijinsky had as a rachehorse particulary his days as a 2 year old when all his races were sprints.Nevertheless i'm sure as you say the Tom Fool line has contribuated well to the success of Black Caviar. I well remember the son of Tom Fool, Silly Season back in the 60's and was perhaps a little unlucky to finish second in the 1965 2000 Guineas to Niksar but by the end of that year under a very inspiring ride by Lester Piggott he was able to turn the tables on that rival in the 10 furlong Champion Stakes.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

Pedigree Ann — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:32:52 GMT

Crimson Saint was a closet Quarter Horse. She had incredible speed from the gate and she just kept going as fast and far as she could.

I first saw her race on the daily TV replay of Hollywood Park races while at university in Southern California. She was in the Meteor H. at 5 on the turf, a 3yo filly against older male sprint stars like Miles Tyson and Indulto in May. She flew out of the gate and quickly put many lengths on the field; flying into the turn, she looked like she was going too fast to negotiate it, but she hugged the rail and came home with a 2 length victory.

Both her sire Crimson Satan and her damsire Bolero were known for the speed they imparted to their offspring, despite the fact that the former won major stakes at 10f and was a close 3rd in the Belmont and the latter won the 9f Del Mar Derby. The next dam was by Menow, whose own dam Alcibiades was a famous and speedy 2yo (although she won the Kentucky Oaks at 3). Meanwhile, Crimson Satan's sire Spy Song was another notable speed source, out of yet another famous and speedy 2yo filly, Mata Hari. All these influences blended together and created a pure distillation of sprinting speed called Crimson Saint.

We had another speedburner of similar talents out in California at about the same time, a colt named Vikingson who regularly ran first quarters under 21 seconds. He went on to be a sire, primarily of Quarter Horses. I always said they should have bred Crimson Saint to Vikingson and sneak it into the Appendix of the QH stud book somehow; it would be a cinch to win the the richest race in the country at the time, the $1 million All American Futurity. Instead they tried to get foals who could stretch her speed by breeding her to staying-type sires; she never produced a foal who was anything more than a sprinter/miler.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

sceptre — Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:38:18 GMT

Kind of you to entertain my ramblings with your mention of Snippets, Alan. Snippets and Tom Fool also share that lone white left hind pastern-as did some of Tom Fool's better descendants (sometimes on right rather than left).- evidence for + "linkage"? An observation like this was sometimes asserted for the black dorsal stripe with many of Ribot's best get.

Black Caviar does have a talented full-brother, but I see where today her 1/2 sibling (whose sire has no Tom Fool "patterns") won first time out. While this new piece of evidence is small, I'll admit it does weaken my position (hope). Looks like Black Caviar's dam is a high quality producer, and this alone probably trumps all other conjecture.

John T-while I grant that anything is possible, I strongly doubt that Nijinsky II was much responsible for Black Caviar's great speed. Unlike a Tom Fool (and many others), Nijinsky II sired very few sprinter-types. Also, Nijinsky's prowess at 2 was somewhat emulated by his son Gorytus, who at that age was also considered to be a freakish phenom. His form, though, deteriorated thereafter, and he essentially failed at stud while siring stayers. Yes, I do remember Shadeed, but he and Royal Academy were the exceptions. Also doubt that Royal Academy inherited much of his speed from Nijinsky II, as Crimson Saint was a notorious influence for speed-take a look at Pancho Villa (by Secretariat no less).

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

Alan Porter — Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:29:03 GMT

Interesting re Tom Fool is that one strain is through Snippets, a horse who I thought had a lot of Tom Fool about him physically

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

John T — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:56:57 GMT

You asked the question why is Black Caviar so brilliant?

The answer is quite simple really anything with Northern Dancer blood in it is capable of becoming a superstar. As you say she is from the male line of one of Northern Dancer's greatest sons, Nijinsky the last horse to win the English Triple Crown. Before Nijinsky matured to win longer races like the Epsom Derby and the St.leger his speed in winning races like the group 1 2000 Guineas and as a 2 year old the very important Dewhurst Stakes was absolutely astonishing.

If you watch re-runs of those two races there is no doubt whatsoever were Black Caviar inherited her great speed from.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

Larry L — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 00:08:19 GMT

BEN JONES Was asked the question brothers and sisters to

the GREAT CITATION his reply was Mrs. Sullivan had 10

children but only (1) John L

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

sceptre — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:56:41 GMT

Most interesting piece, Alan. You have certainly illuminated many of the pieces to this intriguing puzzle. Let's first state the obvious just to be clear-There is a genetic basis for Black Caviar's greatness. Ferreting it out as to what are, and aren't, most contributory to her exceptional phenotype is an incredibly daunting if not impossible task. When one sees this degree of racing ability coupled with a pedigree less apparent for such acomplishment it inspires the constant revisiting of that pedigree, at least for me. It's a real challenge, but the enjoyment of the process is always tempered by the realization that one cannot achieve any semblance of certainty. The most one can hope for is a sense that some progress has been accomplished in a correct direction. That's where I feel I'm at (re-Black Caviar) as my study of her pedigree repeatedly led me to a Tom Fool focus. I readily admit that the genetic "reasons" for Black Caviar's greatness are many/varied, but the Tom Fool aspect/component may be the highest contributor. While I tried to explore this impartially, know that Tom Fool, for me, is the #1 positive genetic influence on the thoroughbred breed-the genetic superstar of superstars. I've concluded that it's just possible that Black Caviar has managed to assemble in her genome a relatively high proportion (concentration) of the genes that enabled Tom Fool to be the horse he was (she received selectively, Tom Fool's better and best genetic material). A thorough look at Black Caviar's pedigree allows the possibility for such an occurrance (I realize this could be postulated for other influences as well). You have already noted the 5x5 Silly Season (by Tom Fool) directly through his two best sons, and the pedigree similarities of Nijinsky II and Sir Ivor to Tom Fool. There are also several commonalities between the pedigrees of Crimson Saint and Tom Fool. You have also noted the apparent (line breeding) "nicks" between Tom Fool and Nijinsky II, and Nijinsky II and Sir Ivor-all contained within Black Caviar's pedigree. Add to this the known "nick" between Nijinsky II and Blushing Groom (not in Black Caviar's pedigree)-which could again be a line breeding nick (see pedigree of Spring Run, dam of Blushing Groom's sire). Tom Fool was by Menow out of Gaga by Bull Dog. Pieces of both Tom Fool, himself and ,perhaps, some of the better/best pieces of what formed a Tom Fool permeate Black Caviar's pedigree. If one were so inclined, it might be in part possible to find some concrete evidence to support this thesis- It may be possible to reconstruct Tom Fool's genome and then, with far more difficulty, somewhat isolate (through observation of the genomes of Tom Fool's best descendents) the "better" components of Tom Fool's genome. Once accomplished (very tall task), one could explore Black Caviar's genome for the prevalences of this better/best Tom Fool genetic material.

re: Deconstructing Black Caviar

marc — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:39:33 GMT

speed, speed, speed!!!

with it the imposible becames posible.