Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

jim of G — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 21:04:00 GMT

No one who was around when Secretariat and Nijinsky were racing questioned their ability to get distances with speed. The definition of the Thoroughbred is a horse that can get a distance with speed. there is no apparent rhyme or reason why some horses have stamina or speed or a combination thereof. Breeding is a roll of the dice; breed the best to the best is the only thought that makes sense.

Who's aware that Secretariat worked a 32 3/5 and a 57 2/5 in preparation for his 1973 Triple Crown run?

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

sceptre — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:00:59 GMT

There is likely little, if any, genetic linkage(s) between the physique and the cardio-respiratory systems, etc. Yes, certain physiques (such as, perhaps, Union Rags') may be more conducive to greater distance potentialities and may "stretch" what is otherwise less distance oriented cardio-respiratory, etc. systems, but there are relative limits. What you see, outwardly, is not necessarily what you get, so be mindful of pedigree (which may offer insight re-cardio-pulmonary, etc.). And Amanda- a horse's "heart" (not the muscle) is also likely genetically derived.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Amanda — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:32:03 GMT

May I remind you that Gone Wests son, Commedable, won the Belmont? And, this horse is rangy and tall, all indications that he has a long, ground covering and easy rolling stride. I am a firm believer its up to the horses heart to get the distance, not just their breeding.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Ranagulzion — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:18:32 GMT

Like Secretariat and Nijinsky, Union Rags' pedigree generates distance questions: nothing new for the really special ones. Truth is that his pedigree does have a mix of speed and stamina with the stamina influences a little further back and deeper but well spread throught his pedigree matrix. Triple crown winners abound in him: Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Nijinsky and Gainsborough. With Epsom Derby and St Leger winner, Hyperion the biggest influence IMO, he should make an awesome stallion prospect and moreso after the Derby.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Alan Porter — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:09:04 GMT

Hi Pedigree Ann,

Haven't seen Union Rags in the flesh, but understand that he's developed into quite a tall horse. That wouldn't be typical of Dixie Union, Dixieland Band, in fact of the most recent ancestors, Nijinsky II, the sire of Terpsachorist (second dam of Union Rags) would be the horse that came to mind. She's the principal reason that you can't discount the possibility that he'll get ten furlongs.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Dennis — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:28:01 GMT

Yes of course, (Leps) will continue to ride "UNION RAGS"

why should'nt LEPS? it's like the "DOG and the Bone"

the story goes, the dog saw his shadow while he had a bone in his mouth, while crossing the river, and due to the reflection of the water, this bone seemed so large, with more gristle inside, the dog then dropped the one from his mouth, and dived in the river to fetch the larger bone, and then the tides swept his original bone, quickly down stream in a gush of current, he tried to retrieve his bone but it went so quickly, he never could then realize that he was not loyal to himself, as he was just a greedy, yet hungry hunter,although he already found food, but instead of satisfying, with his catch that day , he wanted it all, and gave away all instead!! great story..this fits javier castellano, and his agent, my thing is ..sometimes "loyalty have it's rewards"

the grass always looks greener on the other side, yes this is true, but also "one mans' garbage, or refusal can also be another man's glory", and in this case, this could really turn into a modern day "Dog & the Bone"

and please if Union Rags were to win the Derby, and even the triple Crown, would you guys publish this article again, so that everyone learns from it, that would be my only lesson to all in life!we really must try for the top, always, but then also at times we must not burn the bridges

before we reach the top of the mountain!!!!

BYE Javier.."leps is the Bone that you let go"

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Karen in Indiana — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:26:51 GMT

Pedigree Ann, you are right - there was more stamina class in Secretariat's dam side. I'll have to check on conformation to see who he looks more like, but when I look at UR, I see a pretty well-balanced colt. What I especially look for to see if they can handle distance is that cheetah look - if the rear end is much higher than the front, then they seem to do better at short distances. Is that true?

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

jim of G&R Stables — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:37:33 GMT

Alan

Agree, only the running of the race will show who can get the distance fast enough. Union Rags is deservedly the current favorite but he has to negotiate the Florida Derby (G1) first. I'm supposing Leparoux will continue the ride?

The most striking three year old I've seen so far is Castaway. Talk about effortless, his Southwest(division 1) race was brilliant and he has the underrated Bejarano. Looking at his race history indicates to me that the horse wants to go the distance; the longer he goes the better he runs.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Dennis — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:29:27 GMT

I do believe that Union rags, will be a serious contender

in the 3 yr olds classics, and also can win all three classics. I watched Union rags raced in the breeders Cup

last november, 2011 and thought that Union rags lost to Hansen, because the rider of union rags, knew that he was on the best racehorse, and then did too much..eg. javier castellano, made a very wide turn into the stretch, and had Union rags then angling inside to try and draw even with hansen, and in doing so Union Rags apparently jumped a shadow, and still kept coming but the wire came before he could overhaul hansen, and therefore lost his race! I dont know, but I do believe what I saw, i had to blame the jockey Castellano for a chacka, chacka ride, and cost Union rags the race!! now, Castellano is off Union rags, by his choice

and now his presuemedly "big Pletcher Horse" is out of the triple crown series, so he apparently gave away his chance to win a Derby, and also the triple crown!finally this happens to most greedy people, who wants it all, and become dis-loyal, and then they do themselves in,BYE BYE JAVIER...

another jockey, "Johnny Boy Velasquez" have been pletcher's football, although he have won million of races for Pletcher, but when came time to win a Kentucky derby for pletcher, it was Calvin borel, these guys are not loyal to even themselves....Johnny Boy Velasquez, won the Kentucky Derby by luck, but not from Pletcher...Javier you are smart but not too bright!!! "Union rags all the way"

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Pedigree Ann — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 15:00:22 GMT

Karen, at least Secretariat was out of a Princequillo mare who had already produced a winner of the Gulfstream Park H (G1-10f) and who was third in the Belmont, as well as the brilliant Sir Gaylord, already sire of Derby S winner in Sir Ivor. And Sec had a full sister in Syrian Sea, who was 3rd in the CCA Oaks. Clearly class and stamina together from the dam.

Union Rag's female family seems all over the board; it may be that the mares are more heavily influenced by their sires rather than their dams in distance ability. If that is the case, the damsire Gone West does not inspire confidence. Class and talent can stretch a pedigree a furlong or so beyond the optimum distance, so we will see.

By the way, those of you with an eye for this sort of thing, whom does Union Rags resemble most closely? His sire? His damsire? His dam? His sire's dam? This can be an important indicator, as opposed to the full pedigree.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Karen in Indiana — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:20:15 GMT

Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but i can see this horse winning, not just the Kentucky Derby, but the Triple Crown. I was not on his bandwagon last year, but watching the horse himself last Sunday, he was confident, rateable (not headstrong), and he moved so smooth that he didn't look like that was much effort at all. And now, reading about his bloodline's history, it seems like people were saying much the same about Secretariat's before his TC win. I am not comparing the two horses, just how people have viewed the bloodlines.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

KSweatman — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 04:41:30 GMT

What a shame Algorithms is out of the competition for the triple crown, a real good horse. I love Hansen, but don't see him sweeping a triple with his style. Truly love him though, I will be rooting for him. Union Rags was a bit unlucky in the juvenile BC. He is a threat, but I've seen nobody from nowhere win the triple crown races too many times to feel any favorite is a sure bet. I always just hope for a safe trip for all.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Danzig9871 — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 02:16:47 GMT

Great information. Not many come into this event without somewhat of a question, these days.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

John T — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 01:40:13 GMT

The win by Union Rags in the Fountain Of Youth was indeed

impressive and he certainly won like he could get further.

The second dam Terpsichorist won some good races going long

her dam Glad Rags was one of the many classic winners trained by Vincent O,Brien.When Glad Rags son Gorytus run in

the Acomb Stakes at York,a more than useful race for a horse

to make his debut and drew off to win by 7 lengths he certainly had quite a few people taking notice and when he

come back to win the Champagne Stakes at Doncaster the way he did he looked like a superstar in the making.What happened after that is a mystery but it is possible he just

lost interest in racing.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Alan Porter — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:44:23 GMT

Hi Jan,

Stretching out miler speed over stamina in the dam has proved a very good Kentucky Derby formula. Union Rags' is just a little different in that his dam was speedy, although the granddam could run all day. The third dam was a miler out of a sprint-bred mare that threw speed, so the family isn't quite as stout as say, Animal Kingdom or Thunder Gulch.

The brother was definitely a sprinter, but as you said the way Union Rags races and covers the ground will give him a good shot to carry his speed. I suspect that he's going to be just fine at nine furlongs, so the mystery probably won't be solved until Derby Day!

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

Tammy — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:10:51 GMT

I really don't think Union Rags will have any problem with the distance. He seems really strong and confident, more so than in the Breeders Cup. Which he only lost by a nose where he ran 75 more yards than any horse in the race. He also seems more mature and fit. Also if Matz is confident in him than he should do just fine. Good luck Rags and connections hope we see him in the winners circle taking the triple crown trophy.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

KOW — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 21:49:53 GMT

DI-2.14 CD-0.77

Dual Qualifier with a Dosage index of 2.14.

A little high on the CD index for 10F, but the dosage is there, probably a solid miler after the Derby trail.

re: Can Union Rags Stretch Out?

jan — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 20:49:44 GMT

If Michael Matz isn't at all worried about it, then neither am I. And judging from his gallop out, easy long loping strides, and his style of just relaxing waiting to be asked to go -- I really don't see a lot of reason for concern. He certainly has the size and strength to go along with his talent. Look for speed from the sire, and stamina from the dam, right?