Inbreeding Demystified

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Alan Porter — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:11:26 GMT

gone to the races,

With regard to breeding a granddaughter of Gone West to Marsh Side (by Gone West), for what it's worth, in general terms breeding a mare back to a stallion from her immediate sire line tends to have a below average strike-rate (although obviously there are exceptions). This is a rule of thumb that seems to apply over a wide range of sire lines. So it's not that inbreeding to Gone West would necessarily be a bad thing, just in general, in that position.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

John T — Fri, 09 Mar 2012 01:28:16 GMT

It is one of the biggest lies in human history,that every

Thoroughbred racehorse is a year older on January 1st.''Now

Do You Think That Might Have Been Caused By Too Much Inbreeding''?.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Daito — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 18:54:47 GMT

Interesting discussion. I have bred working dogs and song canaries at different times in my life. The one constant thing being inbreeding will , generally speaking, produce a degeneration of the breed. Of course some will come out sound but when we talk about percentages .... degeneration usually wins. Linebreeding is a different matter. I'm all for linebreeding as a safer way to fortify traits and eliminate others. I admire the japanese philosophy of breeding stallions that are milers to ultra miler mares. A look at the top 50 international sires will clearly show their dominance. I agree with Alan P., seeing long distance producing sires being bred to sprinters freaks me out too. Not to mention the trainers who take distance pedigreed runners and loop them on sprint race on and on...

re: Inbreeding Demystified

gone to the races — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 18:16:32 GMT

Your comments on inbreeding are all very interesting. I have a granddaughter of Gone West which I am dyinG to breed to Marsh Side (by Gone West) but my instincts tell me this is too close. Both are very sound individuals. Any thoughts?

re: Inbreeding Demystified

sceptre — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 15:05:49 GMT

By permitting the posting of my last comments you have once again demonstrated that you are gentlemen of integrity.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

sceptre — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 05:00:04 GMT

Would have liked to dialogue with Alan a bit more about precocity vs stoutbredness re question of mutual exclusivity, but just read Byron's post on TDN re- the Salix debate. Know this is off topic, but doubt my brief comment will create any furor, since this particular blog piece is now fairly well hidden among past blogs...Byron, I grant that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for one who seems to respect and generally adhere to scientific data/scientific approach, your comments there surprise and disappoint me. To my mind your focus, and for that matter the issue, shouldn't be about appeasement of the legions of unknowledgable horsemen throughout the world, but rather the pros vs cons on the efficacy (included in this, short/long term-in broadest sense, physical ramifications) of Salix. You must have read the studies and heard what those in the scientific community opine. Where is the scientific evidence to refute this? To my mind, either allow the continued use of Salix on race-day, or conduct further controlled scientific studies before revisiting its potential abolishment. What the non-scientific community majority may now believe should carry no weight. What sickens me most with those who oppose race-day Salix are their sub group that tries to play the horse welfare card. Funny, my single agenda is the horse welfare aspect, and for now I'm firmly pro race-day Salix.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

John T — Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:25:28 GMT

The truth of the matter is that the Kentucky Derby is too

early for most horses to be at their best with the result

by the time the Travers Stakes rolls around a lot of good horses are already ''Spent''.It,s the same problem in the U.k were a young 3 year old is expected to perform at it,s

very best in the Epsom Derby at 12 furlongs the first week-

end in June and keep on ''Rollin''How many times you can go to the well especially with a young horse has become a very important point.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Alan Porter — Wed, 07 Mar 2012 01:36:04 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

I think you are definitely right about getting the stamina in from the dam line - for a U.S. dirt horse that can carry it's speed ten furlongs the better formula seems to be be fast stretching out miler type (say a Distorted Humor or Dixie Union) over a female line with some stamina.

I think you might also be right about the subset of top-class horses that are truly effective at ten furlongs. The two problems are that the Derby often comes a little early for that sort of horse to be at their very best, and that if you end up with a dirt horse that wants ten furlongs, but isn't top-class, what do you do with it?

re: Inbreeding Demystified

sceptre — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:22:47 GMT

Hi Alan,

Re-your comment about the commercial market, and attempting to breed the true 10f horse-

I think the commercial market will "forgive" one bred in that manner, as long as the "stay" appears to emmanate mostly from the female side. So, if the sire has true commercial appeal-and some from that category are capable of siring a true 10f horse given the right mate-, an offpring out of a true staying dam (race record-wise, or pedigree-wise, or production-wise) will not deter many buyers. I'm not necessarily in accord with their logic, but I think that's how they view it...As far as those who don't breed commercially, I agree with you that the breed is becoming more homogenious, ability-wise, but may be regressing re-the 10f + types. Should this be the case, those who selectively breed/race for the router may be at an advantage relative to times past.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

jim culpepper — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:14:18 GMT

It would take a top flight systems analyst to boil this all down, but I must toss in how there are far fewer families of horse breeders across generations with long term goals and thus, most "breeders" are nearing middle age and need to "hit" right now; their kids prefer Vegas or video games and the reproductive math of horses militates against thoughtful inbreeding. I myself breed racing pigeons since I am a working stiff; thus, I will outcross all inbred stock for early youngsters and breed in later on, after I identify individuals who get racers. This is not possible in todays commercial horse industry.

I should have known Hal Dane was quietly reading all of this. Yes Hal, including the Alcocks Arabian, among its other names, and with a host of other good barbs and turks mislabeled as arabians, although the head gear and helmets of most of that days "war horses " would have swallowed arabians.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Hal Dane. — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 16:04:56 GMT

Southbend Farm.,

The breeder of the foal is the person who chooses the stallion that covers the mare.. under that understanding, Federico Tesio did not breed Nearco, it was Lydia.

You will also notice that the Premio Lydia Tesio is a Group One race, whereas the Premio Federico Tesio is Group Three,

the Italian Group Race Committee must have got the record correct.

Jim Culpepper... there were many early stallions who had as much influence to the formation of the running horse, than the Darley, Byerly, Godolphin.. one that springs to mind is Capt Ryder's grey horse The St Victor Barb.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Alan Porter — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:13:35 GMT

I think there is some confusion regarding the impact of inbreeding on aptitude (in terms of distance capability), and on ability.

It is perfectly possible to inbreed closely and to produce a horse with stamina. The most dramatic example would be Coronation V (bred by Marcel Boussac, who was an exponent of close inbreeding, and was very successful over an extended period). She was by a son of the stallion Tourbillon out of a mare by Tourbillon (inbred 2 x 2 to Tourbillon) and won the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. The Aga Khan and the Wildenstein family are also frequent users of inbreeding/linebreeding and who consistently produce horses that are successful over a distance of ground.

As far as U.S. commercial breeding is concerned, whatever your philosphy on inbreeding or outcrossing is, to attempt to breed a true ten furlong horse dirt is a risky endeavor.

If you end up with a horse that is not top-class, the number of options for such a horse are extremely limited, even at grade three level, let alone at ordinary stakes, allowance and claiming level. On the other hand, if you breed for a seven to nine furlong dirt horse, there are a ton of opportunities at all levels, and the shot that if you get a really good one, and it catches the right pace scenario, or is running against less mature opposition, it might just get that tenth furlong.

With the Kentucky Derby coming as early as it does in a horse's career, in general terms, you might very well have a better shot at winning with a mature, 8 1/2 or nine furlong horse than with a true ten furlong horse, that is a little slower developing.

It's very likely that if the Travers was the three-year-old classic to win, rather than the Kentucky Derby, you'd see a little bit of a shift in the paradigm.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

jim culpepper — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 14:07:22 GMT

The foundation of the breed was roughly three stallions and seventy mares; inbreeding, i.e. full and half sibs, and parent offspring matings were common place during the first century of development. No more.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Obmar — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 10:45:20 GMT

J. E. Madden, the propietor of Hamburg Place ... has some original opinions on the interesting subject of how with proper mating our race horses may be greatly improved. The Thoroughbred Record is indebted to him for an interview - -

Mr. Madden was asked: “What quality does the English thoroughbred possess which is lacking in our own race horse?’’

Mr. Madden said: “I would not put it that way, Our best do not lack either speed, courage or stamina as compared with the English thoroughbed, but in general the English have found the secret of intelligent, scientific mating which has not been completely revealed to the American breeder,’’

The English knew as did Tesio a horse that could win at 1 1/2 to 2 miles and not retired after its 3yr old campaign.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Michael B. — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 05:58:42 GMT

The problem is not inbreeding per se. The problem is the distorting influence the commercial breeders are having on the sport. Commercial breeding is all about speed, speed, speed, and more speed, along with precocity and the appearance of the horse in the sales ring. If you have a 3-year-old whose bloodlines suggest his offspring will fit that mold, he will be retired and never see the track at 4. On the other hand, if you have a stayer or a turf horse, especially from staying or turf bloodlines, the average commercial breeder would rather have a couple of root canals without novocaine than stand that type of horse at stud. Animal Kingdom (Leroidesanimaux out of a Acatenango German mare) is a case in point--the owner essentially admitted that the horse would have had to have won the Triple Crown to attract any interest in standing the horse. Acclamation, by Unusual Heat out of a Silveyville mare, will be back at 6 this year--no interest from breeders despite his Eclipse Award (California fans know Silveyville as a son of the French import Petrone, who could stay all day). Gio Ponti raced through his six-year-old season. Einstein (remember him) raced through his seven-year-old season.

Someone is going to make a bundle of money by getting some of these unfashionably bred horses and having the patience to wait unti they get the chance to run 9 furlongs or longer, especially on turf.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Byron Rogers — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 01:05:39 GMT

Jim

You can't compare the Thoroughbred to other livestock breeds in this way as the thoroughbred is a closed gene pool with relatively high Linkage Disequilibrium.

Byron

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Cassandra.Says — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 01:04:15 GMT

Southbend Farm:

Tesio thought horses took a big breath at the beginning of a race and held it to the wire, unless they had a chance at a second "breather."

Granted, he trained south of where the cold misted each exhalation, but still there's no excuse for this.

Think for yourself. You have more data to go on.

From his writings, Tesio sounds to me as though he had a wonderful eye for the mechanics of the horse in motion and great fondness for a silky mover.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

jim culpepper — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 21:59:26 GMT

If what passes for inbreeding in thoroughbreds is compared to livestock where inbreeding is successful, it can seen that inbreeding does not work on thoroughbreds because it isn't used.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Byron Rogers — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:01:26 GMT

Sceptre,

As I said, we are not against inbreeding per-se, but our observation is that the most effective way to inbreed is via the use of what Alan terms as parallel patterns.

Take a look at the pedigree of Devil May Care, a mating Alan designed for clients Diamond A Farm. Simplistically she is inbred to Mr Prospector, but if you take a look at the pedigree of Macoumba and Musical Minister you will notice that they are bred on the same broad cross in reverse. This is one of Alan's 'go-to' techniques in constructing pedigrees. Unfortunately it doesn't lend itself to statistical analysis well.

I used Dink's work because it looks at a single ancestor and examines it (I agree it is overpowering!) and we agree with his assessment on this inbreeding concept.

Byron

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Southbendfarm — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:01:03 GMT

I wonder how Frederico Tesio would respond to all this Knowledge. Using only his memory and a book he kept his matings in, he single handledly changed the breed with Nearco and Ribot. Tesio LOVED inbreeding to full siblings and 1/2 siblings. I agree with Arrgy with the statement that most of todays trainers don't know how to train the stock they have because they don't know the breeding. Case in point was Todd Pletcher and Uncle Mo. Very few Indian Charlie get were able to get a distance. And lets get one thing straight.... 1 1/16th miles is not a distance. 1 1/8th miles is the absolute minimum distance to be called a "route" race. "MO" never won past 1 1/16th miles and yet he runs in the Classic with absolutely NO chance. In the B.C. Mile, he is the favorite. Now "MO" is going to be bred to 100+ mares and pass along his genes....average at best.... to another generation. If he had been born in Germany, he would have been gelded after his "problem" after the Derby. For my money, I will follow those breeders who had success over decades and with multiple sires and dam lines. I believe Inbreeding, if done properly and to superior individuals, does produce better race horses. Tesio proved it, and until someone produces better horses than he did on a very limited budget, for as long as he did, I will read their comments, smile, and continue breeding for race horses and not sale horses, and following as best I can in his footsteps.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Arrgy — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:56:32 GMT

Do you mean me, Fred?

I have to update my purse take from my picks. With my pick:

Willyconker (IRE)

Notes Claim for $25 10/30 Bred to go longer and get better at 5 yr old.

My 17 month long test has now netted $650k with Willy's win in the Kilroe mile!!!

If I could just form a syndicate to make real claims and duplicate what I'm doing, I wouldn't be as poor. lol

I am amazed at what I see trainers doing with good horses!

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Fred — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 12:15:19 GMT

Two comments: Statistics can be used to firm up any side of any argument,

breeding opinions included. Leon Rasmussen makes a persuasive case that

inbreeding does work ; it's his life's work. I'll go with him and Danehill on this subject.

Mr. Porter's observation regarding most trainer's ignorance about breeding is spot-on. Those aspiring to obtain a trainer's license are never challenged about

what they know about horses. Until this changes racing as an industry will always be much less than it could be.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

sceptre — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 03:56:01 GMT

Byron,

Having noted, and agreeing with the closing (long) sentence of your piece's 3rd paragraph (" Our position---------statistical analysis.") I'm somewhat puzzled why you would also include links, etc. to David Dink's articles which may overpower (by their length-not logic) the differing message you have attempted to convey (re-that general subject).

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Asiago Mark — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 01:42:47 GMT

Genetics is a tough thing. You never know what genes are passed on by which parent, and even if you do, you don't know which will be dominant or recessive. That said, more statistical study must be done. Take for example a SW mare, Lady Be Good. She had 13 foals, 6 stakes horses and 4 stakes winners. An outstanding record. Of her 13 foals, 10 were fillies. Of those 10 fillies, 7 produced at least 2 stakes winners each. Considering the average mare doesn't produce 10 foals, to have 2 stakes winners likely means her progeny paid for themselves at the track. Of those 7 who produced multiple stakes winners, 4 of them had daughters who produced multiple stakes winners. This kind of generational superiority cannot be written off as coincidence. Something is going on there. Being a small time breeding/racing owner in this business, I haven't spent the money to obtain the software to do my own research. Do I expect inbreeding to Almahmoud to matter in a pedigree? No, not when a large proportion of the breed has Northern Dancer or Halo somewhere in their pedigree. Same goes for Somethingroyal. It's tough to not find Secretariat or Sir Gaylord in a pedigree these days. But when one mare has several generations producing those kinds of results, the answer isn't chance. We just haven't answered the right questions yet.

If the answer to all of this is that success is just dumb luck, then, with the cost structure of this business, one would only be a fool to participate. It's a mathematical loser. Based on my anecdotal analysis of the past few years, I think something else is at work, and success is available to those who put more thought into their breeding.

re: Inbreeding Demystified

Arrgy — Sat, 03 Mar 2012 23:47:35 GMT

Lets face it. There is little planning into most breeding in the US, the past 5 decades. We strayed from the Euro strategy. It needs to be pointed back to 1 1/2 mi. Drop the attitude of winning the Derby with speed.