Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Cassandra.Says — Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:29:11 GMT

Southbend:

I thought you'd wriggle, that's why I copied your statement at the top of my post.

You said he had a few winners at classic distances not that he had a few classic winners.

It is not "giving the stallion all the credit" to state accurately what the stallion has sired. Storm Cat was from a classic sire line out of a spectacularly fast mare: he can throw back to either Storm Bird or Terlingua.

I doubt, though, that he can throw back to Secretariat as a staying influence. I don't think Terlingua had any of those Princequillo stamina genes to pass on.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Alfonso of Spain — Sat, 17 Mar 2012 06:55:27 GMT

It is clear that GIant's Causeway downgrade the quality of the mares he has covered. On the other hand he has demonstrated the capacity of siring top class stock.

Anyway, in my opinion, Giant's is the typical Coolmore stallion, capable of having enormous crops, that among that quantity the quality appears just by probability. AEI 1,93 is quite poor taking into account that it's CI is 2,93. I am sure that there are a lot of "under 10.000$" stallions that could improve his record had they the same mares as Giants.

Regards

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

sceptre — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:21:29 GMT

Our ability to predict or, for that matter analyse a stallion prospect's or stallion's true sire aptitude can often prove wanting. The causes are likely complex and much still is beyond our ability to discern. His phenotype (here, racing aptitude) many times offers a fairly accurate barometer, but at times has been misleading. History also tells us that careful analysis of pedigree alone often yields the wrong conclusion (re-the later reality). Even the seemingly true "proof's in the pudding" can, at times, be deceptive, as stallions can receive a preponderance of one aptitudinal category mate due to preconceived conviction. It often takes many years in a stallion's career before one can more accurately gauge the best aptitudinal mate for him-this is one of the few advantages to the mega-books...On occasion, some stallions and some mares (such as a Crimson Saint) tend to dominate for aptitude, but it's my experience that more commonly we see relative equal blending (of true aptitudes) prevail... No doubt our lack of near certainty in these matters derives from our present inability to "see" and, perhaps more importantly, understand the sire and dam's genomes. Instead we are left with its "reflection(s)", and this inconclusive evidence must be evaluated as logically as possible for there to be hope of it mirroring reality.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

southbendfarm — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:52:28 GMT

Cassandra...... I admitted he had a few classic winners. But not on a consistant basis to be labled a classic source of classic horses. He did not sire enough winners at 1 1/4 miles or longer to be called a classic sire. He is not in the same league as say...Sadlers Wells, or Montjeu. He simply is not bred to sire that kind of horse. And I did define what I call a classic distance and what I define as a distance race...1 1/8 miles or longer. If he is a classic source of stamina, then why is he not being labeled as a classic sire in the dosage rating. He is going to be Brilliant/Intermediate. Giants Causeway IS siring horses that can regularly get 1 1/8th miles or longer. I stated he may be the sole classic line of Storm Cat...and it turns out he is. Tabasco Cat and Cat Thief are duds and their lines in all probability, will not survive. Giants Causeway looks more like his broodmare sire..Rahy...than he does Storm Cat. He is siring more to his broodmare sire than he is his sire. Thus his stamina is coming more from Rahy and Roberto than it is Storm Cat. Having 10 offspring out of 1000 that can regularly get 1 1/4 miles or longer does not make you a classic sire. It makes you a sire of a horse that won at a classic distance. Believe me when I say, Breeders know the differance. Case in point....Our Emblem....sired War Emblem....a dual classic race winning horse. Name another offspring of Our Emblem that won at 1 1/4 miles. Good thing I regrouped :)

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Pedigree Ann — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:11:46 GMT

Despite the fact that Glitterman sired Balto Star (winner of the G1 United Nations H at 11f), he was never more than a miler sire. Balto's dam was by Devil's Bag (Halo-Ballade, by Herbager) out of a Stage Door Johnny mare.

Cat Thief's dam was a multiple SW beyond a mile who ran second in the Delaware H at 10f, by Alydar from the champion older mare Track Robbery. Tabasco Cat stemmed from a solid, staying Argentine family, with a couple crosses of American speed for balance. Giant's Causeway was out of a multiple 2-turn SW, by Rahy (out of a champion full sister to Devil's Bag) out of a Roberto mare.

One can't ignore the heritage of the dam's side of the family in distance outliers when analyzing a sire's overall influence. Works both ways - only consider the stamina influence Nijinsky, whose son Royal Academy was an outlier as a top sprinter/miler; out of the closet Quarter-Horse Crimson Saint.

Giving a stallion all the credit for the quality and distance ability of the offspring can be hugely misleading.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Karen in Texas — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:00:35 GMT

When talking about Storm Cat's classic distance runners, Cat Thief, winner of the 1999 Breeders' Cup Classic, is often forgotten. He was a tough competitor, though not as accomplished as Tabasco Cat or Giant's Causeway.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

John T — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 02:33:25 GMT

Giant,s Causeway is named for one of the most spectacular

places in Northern Ireland.As good as he was on the racetrack,just like Northern Dancer he should have more

success from his offspring.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Cassandra.Says — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:51:41 GMT

"Storm Cat was not a classic siring horse, even though he has a few winners at classic distance."

Someone has already pointed out to you that Storm Cat sired a Preakness and Belmont winner in Tabasco Cat, which makes this an inaccurate summary of his stud career without even asking you to define 'few' or for that matter 'classic distance."

Shame on you for not regrouping.

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

John — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 01:18:18 GMT

I like to go back beyond Storm Cat, Storm Bird, there you have it. NORTHERN DANCER

re: Giant's Causeway: the Classic Sire?

Southbendfarm — Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:10:58 GMT

Giants Causeway seems poised to be the only major classic wing of the Storm Cat line, and by that I mean siring foals that excel at 1 1/8 miles and longer. Storm Cat was not a classic siring horse, even though he has a few winners at classic distance. He did not do it consistently enough to garner that stamp in my opinion. Though Storm Cat has been given the Sire of Sires label. I disagree. Granted he has some nice sons, but not enough are consistenly siring top class horses for him to be given that label. Giants Causeway may go a little way to changing that. I believe G.C. (Giants Causeway) will go down as a better broodmare sire than Sire of Sires. He looks more like Rahy than he does Storm Cat. His runners seem better on the Turf than dirt, just as Rahy's get did. I hope some of his better bred sons step up soon and start showing the will be top sires. WHile I can do without Storm Cat blood in my breeding program, G.C. seems to be the one son that is changing my mind. I only wish that they would being his brother Freud to Kentucky. He is easier to get to.