Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

John T — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 00:25:04 GMT

It does not matter that Brigadier Gerard did not win this race in 1972. No one who knows anything about thoroughbred racing would call him less than a great racehorse. But this Frankel is something very special.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Physically Imposing Fifty Proof — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:40:04 GMT

Nice touch on Ms.Tesio, she certainly deserves more credit publicly. I think though the best horse they bred was Cavaliere d'Arpino. Fredrico always said that was the best quality horse he bred.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Hal Dane. — Tue, 03 Jul 2012 15:43:46 GMT

Re;- Lydia Tesio.

Is it not surprising that there is no mention of women breeders in the volumes of the Early Stud Books.?, in Vol 1, of the GSB, you do come across a reference to Miss Betty Darcy's Pet Mare.. now according to some records, the three known produce of The Pet Mare were owned by Mr Robinson, Mr Wilkes and Sir J Parsons, it seems probable that Miss Darcy bred all of them and sold them.. as logically, if one of these Gents owned The Pet Mare, all her produce would belong to him.

But generally the owners or breeders of produce listed for each mare are either Lords or Gentlemen even Clergy.. but no women.?, we know for a fact that ladies of that period (and class) had an abundance of time on their hands with their many servants.. is it possible that NONE were interested in what their husbands were doing and contributed their opinion and suggestions.?, how many famous classic winners in history were actually bred by the wives or daughters of the owners.?

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

sceptre — Mon, 02 Jul 2012 03:20:14 GMT

Ranagulzion:

Issac Newton may have been acknowledged as the best scientific mind of his time. Even if we grant that he was, it does not follow that his "laws", principles, or methods were above future scrutiny and as knowledge improved subject to revision leading us, perhaps, closer to reality.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Hal Dane. — Sun, 01 Jul 2012 10:16:34 GMT

Jim of G .... may I be the last to correct you. The brains behind Dormello, was Lydia Tesio, not Federico, it was her idea to mate Nogara with Pharos in the spring of 1934, she also bred the SIRE and DAMSIRE of Ribot.

The only part Federico played in the breeding of either Nearco or Ribot, was when he decided to mate Romanella with Tenerani in the spring of 1951.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

sceptre — Sun, 01 Jul 2012 02:15:17 GMT

jim of G:

If "...the barn door is now closed" why should it be selectively "closed" only for the breeding of racehorses, yet remain ajar for the nearly infinite advances in most other disciplines?

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Ranagulzion — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:47:05 GMT

Sceptre,

If your presumption about Federico Tesio's ignorance on the difference between phenotype and genotype is correct, I'd have to say that his ignorance was, in the good sense, truly blissful. I'd rather be found in company with a pedigree/breeding genius (of Nearco and Ribot fame)such as he.

Check this quote:"Federico Tesio will undoubtedly be remembered as the greatest Thoroughbred breeder of the 20th century.

He never had a large number of mares in his stud at any given time, did not spend a great deal of money on bloodstock and sold most of the best horses he bred.

Yet the blood of the horses he bred is found in about 75% of today's Thoroughbreds." ( www.hitechbloodstock.com/Federico%20Tesio.htm)

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Alan Porter — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:43:45 GMT

Jim of G,

As you've said, Brigadier Gerard stands as "an example of a great racehorse that was not as great at stud." And that is the whole point.

If we take as a group, male thoroughbreds that qualified for a representative chance at stud in the last 50 years, as racehorse Brigadier Gerard takes very high rank, among the absolute best of that group. Among the same group, as a sire, with only two group one winners to his name from over 300 foals, Brigadier Gerard would take a pretty low rank, as one of most disappointing. Hence he stands as an excellent example of the disconnect between performance as a racehorse and as a producer.

Of course, we see it all the time - and it passes without comment - with mares, and it's very likely, were they to get an opportunity at stud we would see male equivalents of La Troienne (very modest racehorse, one of the greatest of producers and foundation mares). To degree, we can actually see this in the days when countries like Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and several South American jurisdictions, would import well-bred, but underperformed cast offs, who subsequently went on to sire top-class performers.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

jim of G — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:16:39 GMT

Tesio was an intuitive genius when it came to horses. You can't explain him, all you can do is marvel at his uniqueness.

there is nothing to breeding but "the best to the best and hope for the best. There is no garden of eden, fountain of youth, or genotype or phenotype when it comes to reproduction. "experts, Technicians and zoologist are just stating the obvious, the barn door is now closed. Not that this excruciating mental twisting in the wind isn't interesting especially in the hands of a gifted writer like Alan Porter along with the precious videos it's one of the things we humans do best along with using our thumbs and killing each other. Long live the thoroughbred despite all attempts to put her in a bottle.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

sceptre — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 18:40:53 GMT

I'll keep this short-

I doubt that Tesio appreciated the difference between phenotype and genotype. jim of G (and Ranagulzion), do you understand the difference?

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

jim of G — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 03:17:42 GMT

great race horses that were not as great at stud, they also were not failures either. I'm disputing Porter saying Brigadier Gerard stands as an example of the limited relationship between performance on the track and achievement at stud. He only stands as an example of a great racehorse that was not as great at stud. May I remind you of what the greatest breeder/trainer of the last 100+ years Tesio said "The thoroughbred exists because its selection has depended, not on experts, technicians or zoologists, but on a piece of wood: the winning post of the Epsom Derby. If you base your criteria on anything else, you will get something else, not the thoroughbred".

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Ranagulzion — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:26:49 GMT

Interesting debate between jim of G, Sceptre and Alan Porter about the "limited relationship" between performance on the racetrack and achievement at stud. jim of G rallied well in his response 29 Jun 2012 1:27 and I agree. The vast majority of influential sires were elite performers. It is in the broodmare dept that the "limited relationship" is pronounced. jim of G's rebuttal regarding Danzig and Alibhai was also noteworthy because those two showed great promise of being elite runners.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

kassiekingsley@gmail.com,ajkwf2@truvista.net — Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:18:03 GMT

A wonderful article about Brigadier Gerard and his incredible race record with some videos. He is the grandsire of Lord at War and thiss article attributes Frankel's talent to him. Accordingly to Dr. Van Lippel and Patrick Lawlin-Wakely who I had dinner with last night, Frankel's handlers are afraid to run him at a longer distance.They should read this. Enjoy.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Alan Porter — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:12:51 GMT

jim of G,

I think you are somewhat missing the point regarding athletic ability and success as a producer.

I'll try an analogy. You don't get to be a world-class endurance athlete (distance runner, cyclist, x-country skier for example) without a big VO2 max (a big ability to intake and process oxygen). However within a group of elite endurance athletes (all of whom have a big V02 max relative to the general population) V02 max is a poor guide to performance.

So with thoroughbred stallions. In general terms, one doesn't get to be a mainstream commercial stallion without a reasonable level of racecourse performance (Alibhai showed an exceptional level of brilliance in a workout). However, within the group of stallions that form that group (mainstream commercial stallions) racecourse ability is not a strong predictor of success as a stallion, or else we would be celebrating Formal Gold and Skip Away from the crop with first runners in 2000. Or you could look at the group that retired to stud in 2005 and chart the opposing courses of Smarty Jones and Tapit.

As far as TrueNicks is concerned, it is not, nor does it purport to be a "method of breeding." It is a statistically measurement of one aspect of the pedigree or prospect pedigree, albeit one that has demonstrated a significant correlation between a high score and success at stakes level.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

sceptre — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 22:13:39 GMT

jim of G:

I guess this has to be spelled out to you in a more simplified manner-

You'll agree that the "shapers of the breed" (your term) are an extremely finite number when compared to all stallions (through history). So, even if you can demonstrate (which you can't) that every "shaper" was an "accomplished racehorse" (also, your term), it would not be a refutation of Alan's statement (the one you so vehemently objected to). I suppose, for some, it's difficult to appreciate/measure what is their own level (degree) of perspective and/or their relative ability to integrate same. Why?-because far too many of us are overly invested in our own opinions (sense of self). But, Alan's follow-up response (to you) should have given you enough pause not to respond in that manner. I must say the list you provided speaks volumes about your limited perspective. Secretariat, Forty Niner, Graustark shapers of the breed?-I don't think so! So tell me, who was the better stallion; Secretariat or Vice Regent, Ultimus, Lord Gaylord, Fairy Bridge, Night Shift, Black Toney...the list goes on? And, who was more the breed shaper; Secretariat, Forty Niner and Graustark or Ultimus, Black Toney, etc.? Fact is, it's nearly impossible for any stallion to succeed, let alone be an elite or, the rarest of all, a breed shaper without great SUPPORT (generally from the outset). You catch my drift? Perhaps more to the point: There are countless examples of poor performing racemares that became exceptional producers. The genetics of the male and female are essentially the same. So, the only difference here is that SUPPORT is a far less issue with broodmares than stallions.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

ajkwf2#truvista.net,kassiekingsley@gmail.com — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:40:54 GMT

This is a fine article about Brig. Gerard and John Hislop who wrote Steeplechasing. Brig. Gerard sired General who sired Lord at War. This article also has tapes of the Brig. Gerard's races. I saw Dr. Von Leppel at dinner last night (Wayne's b-day) and he and Patrick Lawley-Wakelin think that Frankel's handlers won't let him run farther than 1 1/4 mile. Dr. Von L bred the grand dam of the German Derby's favorite Novelist who runs on Sunday.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Ian Tapp — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:16:51 GMT

jim of G,

What are your thoughts on these guys?:

Whirlaway, Citation, Spectacular Bid, Slew o'Gold, Reference Point, Ferdinand, Alysheba, Dayjur, Arazi, Skip Away.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

jim of G — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 17:27:34 GMT

the truly breed shaping horses of the last century were all acc0omplished race horses and that includes Danzig despite his career ending injury after three races. The horses I'm referring to are Man O war, Native Dancer, Bold Ruler Mr. Prospector, Northern Dancer, Secretariat Nearco, Nasrullah, Hyperion, Mahmoud, Danehill, Storm Cat, forty niner, Sunday Silence, Roberto, Nijinsky, His Majesty, Grustark(Brulio Beaza once said His Majesty couldn't shine Graustarks' shoes as a race horse) and I could go on but I think these horses more or less at random more than outweigh Alibhai who came from a well established Aga Khan family and who was training like a good horse before his unfortunate tendon problems) I don't care who one is one can't say that there is a "limited relationship" between performance on the racetrack and achievement at stud. Performance on the racetrack does not guarantee "achievement at stud" as Brigadier Gerard exemplifies.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word perverse in insinuating that Porter is trying to rationalize his own unscientific method of breeding, i.e. TrueNicks

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Alan Porter — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 14:16:21 GMT

Previous note should say "crop that had first foals of 2000."

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Donna — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:44:30 GMT

PS from my last post.

My mother and brother are going to the York meet in August to watch the Juddmonte International, formerly the Benson and Hedges.

I cannot go myself although I went to the October meet last year which brought back lots of great memories.

I have requested lots of photos of Frankel and Camelot, I hope Frankel wins the Juddmonte and Camelot wins the Triple Crown, I have lots of great memories watching Nijinsky and Lester Piggott.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

John T — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:18:09 GMT

Hi Alan

As you have written "Petition Was A Talented Miler Who Was Humbled By The Great Tudor Minstrel in the 2000 Guineas of 1947"

I feel I would be very remiss if I did not relate the following story about the Gunieas of that year. Petition had been a top class 2 year old in 1946, besides winning the Gimcrack at York he also won the New Stakes at Ascot , the Richmond Stakes at Goodwood and the Champagne Stakes at Doncaster. The race chosen for him to make his 3 year old debut in 1947 was the 7 furlong Henry V111 Stakes at the now defunct Hurst Park which he won by 10 lengths. One of his opponents in that race was Sayajirao who would go on to finish third in the Guineas and Derby and win the St.Leger.

In the 2000 Guineas of 1947 there were no starting stalls in England in those days so Petition very much on his toes dashed into the the tapes and threw his jockey Dick Perryman who was able to remount and take part in the race. No one knew at the time but Petition had injured himself quite severely and in fact was not able to race again until July.

Given his fine resume as a 2 year old and his impressive first start as a 3 year old and a line through Sayajirao whom he had also beaten in the Gimcrack it's impossible to say what could have happened in the 1947 2000 Guineas.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Alan Porter — Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:55:26 GMT

Jim of G,

Sceptre actually replied more than adequately, and Alibhai was one excellent example.

In general terms there is a certain degree of ability that a horse needs to demonstrate to earn his place at stud, and a reasonable opportunity in terms of quantity and quality of mares.

Once you take a group of stallions that are going to get representative mares, then within that group, the correlation between racetrack achievement and stallion success will be very limited, especially considering that the stallions with the best race records will generally start with better mares.

There are a number of examples of siblings where the most accomplished racehorse was the inferior sire - Viceregal/Vice Regent; Devil's Bag/Saint Ballado; King Emperor/What Luck; and arguably Graustark/His Majesty.

To give a more recent example, if we look at the famous crop that had first foals of 2000, Formal Gold and Skip Away were a long way more accomplished runners than Distorted Humor and Elusive Quality, who retired to stud at $10,000.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

sceptre — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:37:34 GMT

jim of G:

It baffles me how one can speak and criticize with such certainty without much basis for such opinions.

1. (the lessor important of your two positions): "...Roberto in no way was an inferior race horse to Gerard." Really; I think at look their overall race records-and assessments- clearly refute your position.

2. "...Porter is perversely self serving when he says that Gerard stands as another example, etc., what breed influencing stallion was not an accomplished racehorse?"---It pains me to even type out this quote. One doesn't often find so many errors in fact, comprehension and logic within just one sentence. -Alan's "...and he stands as another example of the limited relationship between performance on the racetrack and achievements at stud..." was an extremely well said, apropos, and accurate statement/message. Incidentally, taken within its context it points to the numerous elite racehorses that failed to succeed at stud. You, jim of G, rather are arguing/disputing/disagreeing with the near-inverse, i.e. that some elite/highly accomplished stallions were not great/ highly accomplished, etc. racehorses. Fact is that I, and I'm certain Alan also, would embrace this last (near-inverse) message as well. jim of G, not sure what is your definition of "accomplished race horse", but I strongly doubt that an *Alibhai would meet your criteria. How about a Black Toney? He was a good, but far from great runner, yet he became a true "breed shaper". Would Danzig's racing career fit your notion of an accomplished race horse? And, even should your definition of "breed shaping stallion" be so limited as to exclude any refuting examples I might offer, this difference/detail does in no way add credibility to your position relative to Alan's statement.

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

Ranagulzion — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:32:42 GMT

Frankel is getting close but Brigadier Gerard is still unsurpased IMO

re: Pedigree Time Machine: Brigadier Gerard

mz — Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:15:23 GMT

Jim of G: I never meant to imply that Roberto was an inferior race horse. I only meant that since the Brigadier was never supposed to lose that race (a la Black Caviar or even Frankel today), it was a shock that Roberto won. I specifically put "lesser" in quotation marks for that very reason.

Ironic as well that Roberto was named for a great ball player and today's magic miler is named for a great trainer.