The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Grande Fan — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 01:09:52 GMT

Perhaps we will all be looking at Japan for the next great TB's...after all they've got some of our best and brightest.

(Summer Bird will be the next stallion imported to Japan) First our stallions, now our stellar racing mares - how can they not succeed? Sadly these horses will not be available to continue their American bloodlines, but they will be appreciated and developed in Japan. I look to the Japanese to produce our future Triple Crown horses. They will have to travel a distance to get to the races - but that's what a classic horse does.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Sandcreek — Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:46:08 GMT

It's premature to speculate on his future success, but I have a Turkoman mare (Turkola out of Pocket Liner by Full Pocket)that I booked this year to Indygo Mountain (A P Indy out of Mountain girl by Mountain Cat).

Aside from being an exceptionally good looking mare with all the tools, she hasn't done anything; never raced and her foals records are less than stellar.

He (Indygo Mountain), on the other hand, showed exciting promise in the races he ran. Aside from injury he could've been fantastic on the track.

My thinking is that the A P Indy/Alydar cross through Turkoman, which I don't see in many might get me something special.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Weekend Surprise — Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:45:12 GMT

I noticed you did not post my comment , I hope it wasnt misunderstood ! When I mentioned culling certain stallions , I did not mean the ones you had listed ! Every mating should be carefully thought out ,no matter what the price range ! The last thing we need are horses that are doomed from the start ! We all know what happens to these poor animals !

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

NoComp — Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:26:26 GMT

Nice list of new stallions.The Factor had brilliant speed that breeders like.Bodemeister showed so much guts in his two classic races he has to be near the top of the new class.Most horses with that sizzling of a pace in the Derby would have faded by 20 lenghts.If he passes that determination to his offspring look out!!Gemologist looks intresting as Tiznow's sons are now coming to stud.He could be a sleeper.Another sleeper could be Take Charge Indy what a page he has being by Take Charge Lady a brilliant runner who gave Azeri all she could handle.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Weekend Surprise — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:26:01 GMT

I do think that alot of American breeders are focused on breeding to speed oriented sires!Looking through the stallion register you can make a case for many of these Stallions to be culled!I agree with many of the Germans qualifications for stallions . Pedigree Ann made alot of good points !

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

michael — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 05:02:26 GMT

the fact you have a horse in rags to riches the only female h to win the belmont at 12 furlongs and a potential talent that could be great with her foals from galileo henrythenavigator that would not happen is puzzing to me

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Bruce — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:15:52 GMT

Yes yes just like Paul "Bear" Bryant said lots of potential which means they haven't done it yet! $25k,$35K for horses who have small or no chance of making it as a real sire no 6% but 9-10% stakeswinners like the indust4ry needs today!

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Criminal Type — Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:40:28 GMT

Michael, That's a nice group of mares you mentioned, and I tend to agree. Rachel and Her Curlin and the coming Bernardini's foal's should be quite capable of getting a classic distance. Ditto Zenyatta's Bernardini weanling. The mating of her for 2013 to Tapit is intriguing in the respect that your breeding a big mare who's distance capabilities are well known bred to a stallion who throw's precocity to his offspring who have been brilliant up to 8.5 to 9 furlongs. Could we get a foal who can carry that Tapit speed well over a mile ?..That would be something to see.

Foals from Royal Delta should also be able to get a good distance of ground given the Empire Maker and Ap Indy right up front in her pedigree, depending on who she is bred to.

A lot of people won't like this, but I think Union Rag's will be a good sire and im willing to bet he will get some very nice mares. He showed moments of sheer brilliance at 2 and his game win over Paynter in the Belmont was thrilling to watch and showed his true courage squeezing through that little opening. It has been my opinion all along he was a special colt and sadly we never got to see the true extent of his talent. I stood beside him at Fair Hill and have never seen a more stunningly beautiful and physically imposing horse (I stood beside Aruna and Animal Kingdom the same day). I know Lane's End is very excited about his future and legacy of the Dixieland Band sire line. I expect My Miss Aurelia to go to Union Rag's..She's an A++ with him, and it's been rumored for several months that will be her first mating.

Since Rag's to Riches is Coolmore owned and in Ireland, her offspring will most likely race there. Only the 3 yr old Giants Causeway filly has a name so far, Opulence. Her racing career was sidlined with a sesamoid injury early in her 2 yr old season. Rag's to Riches other two are a 2011 Henrythenavigator colt and a 2012 Galileo colt. I believe she was bred to Sea the Stars for 2013, but it could have been Galileo again. (I've forgotten, But I'm sure Ian will let me know)I also think the rest of those ladies have a good chance at producing an extremely talented offspring, particularly Havre De Grace and Grace Hall.

All in all I think the top five horses on this list for making it as sires are, Bodemeister (Empire Maker), Gemologist (Tiznow), Morning Line (Tiznow), Union Rag's (Dixie Union)and Star Guitar (Quiet American) although his success may be regional unless some Kentucky breeders send their mares south.

Algorithms joined the list of retiree's today. Can't remember where he is going to be at stud but it's a done deal.

I predict The Factor and Hansen will be siring a whole crop of grey phenoms who will hit the skids once they approach a mile.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

michael — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:09:54 GMT

a triple crown winner might come from a female that has recently retired or still running they are breed great

like zenyatta rachel alexandra royal delta my miss aurelia it's tricky plum pretty grace hall blind luck havre de grace rags to riches

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

ARRRRGGGHHH!! — Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:22:44 GMT

In regards to Sceptre...This less about triple crown winners, and more about triple crown hopefuls who don't even make it to the fall....but no problem soon you will see the K.Derby run at 8.5f, the preakness 8f, and the Belmont 9f...keep shortening it up like they did with all the other big handicap races.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Cyd — Sat, 13 Oct 2012 13:53:28 GMT

Have not seen where a farm has picked up Hansen yet, if you know who?

America does not want a long distance horse point in fact I'll Have Another is now in Japan, but all those that ran behind him have a place here in the states. Sort of like Sunday Silence.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

big john t — Sat, 13 Oct 2012 03:14:29 GMT

Brilliant Speed is not a sprinter or miler and will be standing at Three Chimmneys in 2013.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

karen — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:15:56 GMT

The problem I have with the list, is they are all at stud due to retirement as a result of an injury...therefore I would not breed to that as I don't want to breed weakness. Need to improve not diminisj.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

sceptre — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:50:30 GMT

Here we go again...

I disagree with some of Pedigree Ann's and Byron's remarks.

I don't feel that this time gap in Triple Crown wiinners should be considerd as evidence for the breed's lessened durability/soundness. There are many varibles at play here, and as Ian mentioned there have been long gaps before-when the population was significantly smaller. There appears also to be a greater homogeneity to today's population-more difficult to produce one standout. In the 50+ yrs that I've followed the sport, I've seen no appreciable difference in the attrition rate re-the Triple Crown trail...Yes, we have been selecting for an ever lessening "classic" distance-type, but I doubt this bears much on the non-Triple Crown winner issue. I don't agree with Byron that the breed's direction toward lower (distance) aptitudes was primarily, or even remotely caused by the "shortening" of many of our classic-type races, but rather that our preference for the more brilliant-type thoroughbed has caused the change in those races. Through the course of time it appears that we have tended to increasingly opt for the more brilliant-type thoroughbred. I think it may have stemmed from the observation long ago by breeders that infusing pedigrees with more speed led to greater racetrack success. Yes, we may have gone too far, as some today could argue that this direction has caused a less aesthetically pleasing animal, and less variety in the races we view...As to those who condemn the use of lightly raced/or early retired stallions, I suggest you research the racing and stallion careers of many of yesterday's and today's most successful/influential stallions...To those who laud the German breeding program-why is it that German racers have less starts/yr than here in the US? Urban Sea is far from, genetically, 50% German "blood", and how certain are you re- their methods for identifying "bleeders"-is endoscoptic evaluation routine?

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Byron Rogers — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:39:34 GMT

Pedigree Ann,

There is no doubt that the exacting standards that the German breeding industry has had benefits but they also use estimated breeding values and have requirements for stallions to race lasix free if they are to be participate in their breeder awards.

You are right. Selection pressures on a population occur based on the environment that they are placed in. The fact that the American thoroughbred has homogenized to a mile to a mile and a sixteenth type is purely a result of reducing the distances of races like the JC Gold Cup and other longer races and making the focus on a Derby at 10f and an Oaks at just 9f.

There is also something to be said about durability, but it is not measured well in this industry (this may change shortly) and there is usually a tradeoff between class and durability anyway (good horses are usually pushing physiological limits).

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Ian Tapp — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:56:19 GMT

Pedigree Ann,

People were saying similar things during the 25 years between Citation and Secretariat, that the breed was no longer capable of producing a TC winner. You say we can't breed horses who can do it; I'd say a bigger part of it is that we don't train horses to do it. Like you say, today's racing environment and things we "glorify" are different now.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Bill Rinker — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:46:27 GMT

Nice report Alan, Sure does look like there are some potentially nice stallions in this line up. I haven't looked at all of them yet but have been thinking about a few of them for a little while now. Shackleford, Bodemeister, and Take Charge Indy all look highly influential. You gotta love their bottom lines. Bode has that great Secretariat influence, Shack has Tamerett, Belthazar, and Aspidistra blood, and Take Charge Indy's dam Take Charge Lady is take charge terrific. Looks like some really nice babies could be a hatching out and scampering around in a coulpe years, yee-haa !!!

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Pedigree Ann — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:14:42 GMT

Ian Tapp,

Is it a bad thing we can't breed horses who can't stand a Triple Crown campaign without getting hurt? You bet it is. Is it a bad thing we glorify hot 2yos who win a 5.5f race by 10 l, then can't race again and goes to stud to produce more of his like? You bet it is.

Demanding long campaigns, comebacks for the 2yos and 3yos who don't complete that season, and restoration of the prestige of staying races for stallions is the only way to reverse the trend to 6f horses who are not Thoroughbreds in the truest sense of the word.

The German breeding association demands that a horse earn a certain level on their Free Handicap at 3 before it can stand in Germany, and their Derby winners race at 4 and often beyond, racing at classic distances. Guess where breeders in Europe are looking to fortify their weakening stock these days? Urban Sea was half-German and her sons Galileo and Sea the Stars dominated in the stud and on the track. Manduro (GER) was the Horse of the World a few years back. From an industry with only a few thousand broodmares in the stud.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Ian Tapp — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:33:27 GMT

Midnight Lute,

I guess I think of it differently. I realize people like to romanticize the past of horse racing: the war horses, the 2-mile Jockey Club Gold Cups, etc. But that's not reality of the current North American thoroughbred. We don't breed for 12f+, we breed for 2 and 3yo performance up to 8-9 furlongs and the best ones get additional distance on class. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing that our best horses aren't 2-mile horses. Does anyone criticize Usain Bolt for being "just a sprinter"?

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Jman — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:31:50 GMT

Bode is the best of the bunch by daylight. Love Star Guitar's outstanding body of work the best.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

michael — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:08:49 GMT

well four super talents that could have impact

union rags bodemeister to honor and serve and i read stay thirsty is done racing

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

Terry M. — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:05:28 GMT

I remember when a horse with "stamina" was a horse that ran at least 10 furlongs and up to 2 miles. I certainly don't call a horse that wins at 8.5 or 9 furlongs a stayer. Everyone wants to win the Triple Crown, but how can they do that when these horses are consistently bred specifically to run 9 furlongs or less?

Maybe if the distances on some stakes were increased and more emphasis was put on durability than crazy speed at two and three, this would change. It bothers me that so many colts are already retired by June of their 3-year-old year due to injury, and then enter the breeding pool to breed 150-plus mares a year.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

stephadam — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:07:18 GMT

Great line up but concerning the reason so many retired so young.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

JSmith — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:58:07 GMT

I wish they would limit the amount of mares a stallion can cover. There are so many unwanted horses, inc. well bred TB's that didn't make the grade. Until there is a pension plan for OTTB's the problem will be added to every mating season.

re: The Shock of the New: Stallions of 2013

skyfire — Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:48:31 GMT

Too bad Winstar retires 3 year olds: Bode, Gem, Take Charge Indy. Not in the best interest of racing, but big stallion bucks.