Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

John T — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 01:52:47 GMT

Frankel will start his new career as a stallion on Feb 14th which is very appropiate as it is Valentines Day. I shall miss him on the racetrack as it was a wonderful 3 years but the time has come to see what he can do in the breeding shed.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

gloee — Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:32:51 GMT

Hello Sham,

How are you? Maybe Secretariat raced against schlubs. Maybe not? Who knows? But if the other horses were schlubs, it didn't seem to phase Secretariat. Sec had a different point of reference, he didn't seem to care about the other horses - Maybe he had Equine Asbergers? He tended to kick into a higher gear, and then he kept running. Yeah, he lost to Onion, and a couple of other horses. Certainly Man O War's brilliant record, 19-1, is better. Honestly, I think you, Sham, were a great racehorse, and regret you don't get the respect you deserve. But this is key: none of this matters. Secretariat performed like no other racehorse; totally unprecedented, he was a Force of Nature. There are many extraordinary racehorses. I really love Dr. Fager, who was brilliant. No one - past, present, & probably future - could have beaten Sec at the '73 Belmont at 1.5 miles. Sec had racing performances & a career that won't be seen again. Period. He's the King.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Sham — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 02:24:06 GMT

Hey Secretariat....we ran against a bunch of schlubs ourselves.....so ZIP IT!. Heck even I faded in the Belmont and was never seen again. Say hi to Onion....

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

The Student — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 13:13:32 GMT

Secretariat,

shame someone with this great username knows very little about horse racing.Would he be so agreeable if I was to say a similar thing about recent Champions Zenyatta and Rachael Alexander.Doubted.Embrace brilliance,class,pedigree and sometimes freakish talents in our sport it's what keeps the dream alive for us all.To answer a question with a question I wonder if Bullet Train has done enough to actually stand at Stud?

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

happyticket — Tue, 11 Dec 2012 02:03:16 GMT

It will be interesting to see how the Barbaro brothers do at stud. Their racing careers were kinda a disappointment, at least to me anyways. I think that they would have performed a little better had they been able to develop physically and mentally a little more before they started racing. I just don't feel that they were campaigned as well as they should have been. I felt that the boys had way more potential than they showed or were given the opportunity. Hopefully they do better at stud.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Secretariat — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 23:53:36 GMT

Who cares.

Frankel ran against a bunch of schlubs his whole life.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

JerseyBoy — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:29:24 GMT

Karen in Texas:

Thank you Karen. My concern is when a person says that A is superior to B, whether that person is basing his opinion on such a test. If he is, he should say so.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

JerseyBoy — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 22:21:57 GMT

Ranagulzion:

Thank for your comment.

By the way, I have only one foe-Father Time. I give him all the love and devotion I can muster. Yet he folds me closer to his breast every day.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Karen in Texas — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 20:03:24 GMT

Just a couple of thoughts after perusing the comments.

JerseyBoy---There is a test for speed that is being marketed. Remember the discussion on Steve Haskin's "It's All in the Blood" blog? I think several performance genetics companies are currently performing these. It is my impression that the tests are based on the MSTN variants, although I'm not positive. Dr. Emmeline Hill's team conducted the NIH study you linked above, and she is a member of one of the performance companies. I have no idea how accurate the testing is and am not promoting it.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Ranagulzion — Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:01:46 GMT

Jersey Boy, my buddy! (LOL)

You are smarter than I've given you credit for in our past skirmishes. I like the angle of your argument but I think that you've misread my attitude to the scientific dimension. In my own defence, I haven't altogether discounted the relevance of evaluating the quality of the thoroughbred based upon phenotype/genotype analysis. Instead of pretending to be a know-it-all I'm eager to learn a thing or two inspite of many decades in the sport. However I do have enough experience to not be overawed by those who brandish esoteric terminology as some sort of superior thoroughbred breeding dogma without supporting their dogma/fixation with some reasonable analysis or scientific facts.

I applaud your contribution to this discussion Bro.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

JerseyBoy — Sun, 09 Dec 2012 23:25:54 GMT

This is fun. The soccer matches are over for the day.

Ranagulzion:

You are on to something. But I take a different approach. I do not question the usefulness of genotype/phenotype. Rather I accept that genotype/phenotype is science and embrace it fully, always did.

However I focus on the two main characteristics one desires in the thoroughbred - speed and stamina.

These characteristics are present in all horses to varying degrees.

Here is a line taken from an abstract. It is put here purely to show that the technique for identifying potential speed levels is being studied:

“These findings clearly indicate that variation at the MSTN gene influences speed in Thoroughbred horses.” (URL below).

I take it that the findings are based on proper research.

Now I ask the users of the two terms how they are able to determine the genotype of a specific horse. Do they obtain the information from a test? If they do not, then, when it comes to speed in the genotype, they are in no better position than the guy who bases his opinion by looking at a horse’s past performance and pedigree.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../22016373

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Ranagulzion — Sun, 09 Dec 2012 22:26:20 GMT

Jersey Boy,

That sportingpost article was indeed great fun to read. Good job my erstwhile friend & foe (LOL). The very informative and well researched contents of that article should at least temper the arrogance-masked-ignorance of Sceptre for a season ...dare we hope?

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Ranagulzion — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 22:44:27 GMT

Sceptre,

Regarding my opinion that Frankel has a marked edge over Bullet Train on the basis of pedigree, you seem to think that Sadler's Wells outstanding accomplishments as a sire cannot be surpassed by Galileo. You wrote that "the present evidence fails to support your level of certainty". Well I have news for you Bro. Galileo has arguably a stouter pedigree than his sire, Sadler's Wells and he was by far a superior racer on the track. Further more, he has gotten off to at least as good a start as his famous sire did and it is without dispute that Sadler's Well never produced a son of the calibre of Frankel in his total body of work (Galileo has only just begun ...think about that!).

Perhaps as the expert on phenotype/genotype analysis you could submit a comparitive analysis on both Sadler's Wells and Galileo to support your position ...but I wont hold my breath.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

JerseyBoy — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 21:11:17 GMT

Ranagulzion:

For info only.

Here is a recent comparison-Galileo v Sadlers Wells.

Have fun.

www.sportingpost.co.za/.../here-and-elsewhere-33

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Brigade — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 19:25:34 GMT

How about half brothers Ghostzapper and City Zip out of the Relauanch mare Baby Zip. Both of these stallions have had tremendous years and have many productive years ahead of them. Or the trio produced by Prospectors Delite: Mineshaft, Rock Slide and Monashee Mountain.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Obmar — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 15:07:55 GMT

Pedigree Ann, I'm saying Bull Dog was the better because the fillies Sir Gallahad produced were better then his sons. The line was at its end when Bull Lea's son Citation failed as a sire.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Hal Dane. — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 14:25:59 GMT

Pedigree Ann.. When Sir Gallahad came to America.. his two brothers Bull Dog and Quartre Bras were not foaled yet..

They were quite fast 2-y-o's in France, both coming to the USA, Quatre Bras sired the Travers winner Eurasian.

Their dam at the age of 23 foaled the Epsom Derby winner Bois Roussel, and she was also the dam of the Grand Prix de Paris winner and champion sire Admiral Drake.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Val — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 06:48:20 GMT

Snappish Steps was hurt as a 2 year old why he never made it to track look at him he is as well put together as his brother and Frued is a well balanced example of his pedigree give them the same book of mares and you will end up with same results but depends if your breeding to race to breeding to sell and if in a state bred sale or wide open national auction

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Val — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 05:53:29 GMT

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Karen in Indiana — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 04:22:36 GMT

Ranagulzion, Dynaformer is a strong answer to your question. An unimpressive race record, but outstanding at stud - making an impact nationally and internationally and across many sports since he was a leading steeplechase sire as well as flat racing.

And i like seeing Summer Squall or Tabasco Cat as a broodmare sire, but they weren't all that successful as a sire of sires.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

sceptre — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 00:07:38 GMT

Ranagulzion-

Your last post became visible after my earlier remarks to you.

It pains me to say, but you may be doing others a disservice by posting (with conviction, no less) about matters you obviously know so little about. You need to first grasp what stimulated the retort before offering it.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Manicomio Tom — Sat, 08 Dec 2012 00:00:34 GMT

When Mill Reef retired he was bred to some of the best mares in the American and English Stud Books. Result one flop after another. Gold needs an alloy. When bred to mares of humbler origins he started to show his merit as a sire, winning the Derby with Shirley Heights. Frankel will obviously attract the best mares in Europe and may well exhibit the same tendencies. Bullet Train will have to do it the hard way, compounded by the fact that his pedigree does not lend itself to American dirt racing. This will seriously effect the quality of mare he attracts here and the opportunity his stock will have to shine in conditions suitable for them. I hope Juddmonte shows a little faith and sends him a few good mares. He would be much better off standing in South America where he would be appreciated.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

sceptre — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:46:47 GMT

Ranagulzion:

I coud probably leave this to others, but in case they dont-

It is way too premature to assert that-on pedigree alone- Frankel (owing to being sired by Galileo who is out of Urban Sea) has a "marked edge" over Bullet Train (sired by Sadler's Wells). For your remark to be potentially accurate would require that Galileo would one day be judged the markedly superior sire to Sadler's Wells. In view of Sadler's Wells' total body of work, I doubt that day will ever come. In any event, the present evidence fails to support your level of certainty.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Ranagulzion — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:23:21 GMT

The analysis of the quality thoroughbred in terms of phenotype vis a vis genotype has its merit but is overrated by some in the context of this blog since the quality of a horse on the race track doesn't always translate into the same quality in the breeding shed. What make a horse a monster on the track yet a dud at stud while another is a moderate performer yet outstanding at stud? Also, what makes some better producers of sires and others of broodmares irrespective of their race record? The much scoffed at "paper pedigree" still stands up as strong as any penotype/genotype analysis in making educated guesses on breeding IMO.

Pedigree Ann,

I find your contributions to be consistently insightful and informative. If you have information on the phenotype comparison between Sir Gallahad and Bull Dog that would be very helpful here, I think.

re: Frankel or Bullet Train: Who's the Better Value?

Ranagulzion — Fri, 07 Dec 2012 22:00:16 GMT

Going strictly by pedigree and the level at which they were campaigned, both Frankel and Bullet Train appear to have a better than average chance of attracting the quality of broodmares to make them very successful stallions. Frankel, carrying the "Urban Sea" factor in his pedigree, again has a marked edge over his 3/4 brother Bullet Train. His edge is further enhanced by the fact that his sire Galileo has already stamped himself as an outstanding sire of sires on the rise.