Success Breeds Success

re: Success Breeds Success

Otisxx@aol.com — Fri, 29 Jan 2010 01:34:54 GMT

ALAN,If you had owned Secretariat what mare bloodline would you have bred him to.He had some decent male offspring which included General Assembly,Risen Star,and Tinners Way.D.Wayne Lucas said he would have bred Secretariat to the fastest mares he could find.People always remember his Triple Crown Races but forget he was also a grass champion as well.He was so unique.Also I feel that their is a huge question mark that still hangs over the validity of nicking patterns especially when one gets to the third and forth generation in a horses pedigree.

re: Success Breeds Success

Arbouwkamp — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:19:36 GMT

Add Dunkirk as the latest UBS to suffer a set back.

Sad.

re: Success Breeds Success

highline — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 01:24:56 GMT

As far as unsoundness goes, wasn't Eight Belles by Unbridled's Song? Didn't she have a problem? What about Old Fashioned? Isn't he also a son of Unbridled's Song? Isn't he also now out of the Derby due to a slab fracture (which has been fixed, hopefully)? I see some kind of pattern here, or maybe just looking for ghosts?

re: Success Breeds Success

Alan Porter — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:07:30 GMT

Hatever

I think that is a huge over-simplification in the analysis of Unbridled's Song. The foot problem was not an inherited issue, and could have been taken care of over time, but he was on a program to get him to the Derby. I don't hear any complaints about the feet of his offspring.

What is really happening is that trainers are just starting to learn not to press on them too early. They have precocity in terms of ability, but they are not really ready to press on early.

Unbridled's Song himself races a near Champion at two, ran eight times at three, including two grade one wins (bad foot and all), and was a stakes winner again at four in his only start, so he wasn't that fragile.

Plenty of his offspring have won good races as older horses too, including Thorn Song, Splendid Blended, First Defence, Political Force, Even the Score, Domestic Disputed, Eurosilver, Honest Man - actually of his best, more won good races as older horses than didn't. Incidentally, his best runners from his shuttle crops in Australia have made huge numbers of starts, the top three have 60, 65, and 70 starts.

I also believe that it's a lot easier to start with brilliance and breed in soundness, that to start with soundness, and to create brilliance.

re: Success Breeds Success

hatever — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 14:57:28 GMT

Unbridled's Song produces alot of offspring that have constant soundness problems. As long as they're fast, that's what matters. I'm sure this stallion will be around for a long time to pass on his soundess issues to many generations to come. This horse had to run the derby in a bar shoe because of his serious soundess issues and they're breeding mares to him. The future definitely contains much tradgedy when an unsound stallion is selected as the epitome of perfection and breed to him if you want a winner, or more like an unsound thoroughbred who may not make it back to the barn after a race. The problem with this industry is it doesn't learn from past mistakes. Push for sound, healthy breeding stallions, not the unsound, and especially the ones that don't last long on the track because they're always getting injured, geld them because they are what is considered soft-boned and the breed doesn't need that and the general public doesn't need to witness what happens to many soft boned race horses on the track.

re: Success Breeds Success

Alfonso — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:29:25 GMT

I am getting to the conclusion after studing a lot of pedigrees and sires, that when a horse has a unique capacity based on a Characteristic transmited by his damsire (Secretariat, Princequillo) he is not going to reproduce himself in his sons, as the are not going to receive the female influence of the Xsex cromossome. When he delivers daughters, some would expres the X of the damsire and some the x of their own madam, so as an average only 50% of the females would expres it and only a 25% of the progeny.

The X factor is one of theese qualities. The only way for Secretariat to repeat his ability in his male progreny was to cover mares carring at least one Xcromossome so that the product could be large hearted as Secretariat. It is not a casualty that both General Assemby and Risen Star were from mares carrying the X factor.

As Alan says, the is not a written rule for everything but observation can help. This example of Secretariat happens also with Dancing Brave.

Regards and sorry for my english (I am from Spain)

re: Success Breeds Success

Alan Porter — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:26:51 GMT

I do know that Secretariat was a very inconsistent getter of physical type, even among his best (for example Risen Star and Lady's Secret). I think as far as performance, he was also frequently somewhat dominated by his mares. He has become a great broodmare sire of sires (A.P. Indy, Storm Cat, Gone West, etc.). In part this is possibly due to x-chromosome related factors from his dam, who was a great producer.

Coronation V had a blocked fallopian tube, and never produced a foal. Her sister, Ormara, was dam of Locris (by Venture VII, by Relic). He won the Prix Jean Prat, a group I level race, and was later a successful sire in Brazil. She's ancestress of a number of other good winners. One would certainly expect a very closely inbred horse to breed on more consistently than an outcross, both in type and aptitude.

re: Success Breeds Success

newsline2 — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:37:22 GMT

Alan, how would you compare Coronation who you noted as tightly bred to the outcrossed Secretariat in their ability to transmit their capacity (i.e. stamina, speed, vigor) to their off-spring?

re: Success Breeds Success

Alan Porter — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:49:43 GMT

I'm not sure about "the more inbreeding the better.." but in general, inbreeding to or through related strains around the fourth and fifth generations avoids the risks of very close inbreeding, while bringing more predictability based on multiples of related strains further back in the pedigree.

There is no one way to breed a great horse, however, and they can be as inbred as Coronation V (2 x 2 to Tourbillon), or as outcrossed as Secretariat (free of inbreeding at five generations).

Not all Champions are the products of successful nicks - which are more often than not due to some inbreeding or linebreeding factors - but there is a considerable tendency for them to be bred on nicks that were also successful before the Champions arrived.

There are no certainties in Thoroughbred breeding, but there are observable tendencies and trends, and it it certainly pays to follow, and where possible, anticipate these.

re: Success Breeds Success

Truth — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:22:08 GMT

The more inbreeding the better eh!?

Not to mention that champions look like good nicks because... they've already won.

re: Success Breeds Success

Ashley — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:26:51 GMT

Dont forget the breeding of Cee's Tizzy and Cee's Song.. a perfect match that produced stakes winners