Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Ian Tapp — Fri, 09 Aug 2013 19:06:50 GMT

Almudena was bred to More Than Ready earlier this year.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Chris — Fri, 09 Aug 2013 18:11:17 GMT

Big Drama!

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Alan Porter — Mon, 04 Mar 2013 15:07:11 GMT

Cassandra.Says

If I understand your post correctly, I think it reflects a common misapprehension - that "outcross for" is somehow synonymous with "good cross for."

We see this a lot in adverts that advertise a stallion as "an outcross for ........" and I've even penned similar lines myself.

However, just because a sire or a dam might be free of, for example, Northern Dancer, does not automatically make that individual a good cross for horses with Northern Dancer.

There probably is something of an ideal range for inbreeding (that is genetic inbreeding, what is actually present in the genotype rather than paper inbreeding), with inbreeding (when it works the way we hope) fixing traits, and outcrossing, one hopes, bringing new traits that are complimentary to the established ones. Just breeding because something is an outcross seems a rather random way to go.

At least with the Key Ancestor report we have some idea of the strains that have historically had an affinity with mares that are similarly-bred to the subject mare, even if we don't know why those affinities exist. In that way, the product certainly comes closer to giving us some logical choices than any other methodology I've come across, and as I said in a previous post, when coupled with the TrueNicks rating, at minimum, makes it hard to plan a bad pedigree mating.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

sceptre — Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:26:36 GMT

Cassandra Says,

I'll admit that it took me a few reads before I was able to discern the drift of your post. Your simple directive seems nothing more than to breed to Mr. P. "blood", or Northern Dancer "blood", or, I suppose, preferably both, as long as the broodmare in question is sufficiently devoid of their "blood". Not that I for a moment agree, but do I have that right?

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Ian Tapp — Sun, 03 Mar 2013 20:19:58 GMT

Cassandra.Says,

What exactly are "the flaws turned up by inbreeding"?

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Cassandra.Says — Sun, 03 Mar 2013 19:30:24 GMT

The demographics of the herd tells us that Mr. P and Northern Dancer each brought something unique to the breed and together (The Cross) define future generations. (The something unique may be a unique combination or concentration -- not saying it's a mutant gene or something similar.)

When the benefits of this are cancelled out by the flaws turned up by inbreeding, one looks to recapture the original magic by finding a mare who has neither, or neither close enough that is likely to have much influence on the individual.

I take it for granted that a mare with neither is inferior in pedigree except for the fact that she is an outcross. As these become rarer, she becomes a Pearl Beyond Price.

This approach lacks the intellectual challenge of trying to inbreed to such a foreign pedigree. In fact, it's a no brainer.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

sceptre — Sun, 03 Mar 2013 00:06:16 GMT

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your thorough explanation. It certainly underlines the need to run a standard "TrueNicks Report" following the "Key Ancestor's" report, etc.-especially in segregated populations where there tends to be a greater liklihood for the relative "super stallion" effect. This is far less an issue for the resident US broodmare population.

But, for the rare case of an Almudena, I can't go along with yours or Ian's assurances. To use your mention of Sunday Silence as example: Consider a Japanese racemare exported to the US for broodmare duty. It's not too unlikely that several of those mares most closely related to her were bred to Sunday Silence, and that the Halo-line would show up to be quite a + on the Key Ancestor's Report-"directing" her breeder to send her to Halo "blood" here. Yes, you could then run a standard "TrueNicks" report on those chosen Halo-line stallions to see how well her sire line may stack up with those Halo-line stallions, but as she's a Japanese bred, I doubt that the Report would have much relevance. A somewhat more productive course might be to run a TrueNicks Report for the mare with Sunday Silence (as a follow-up to her Key Ancestor's Report) to help determine whether her sire line is indeed highly "suitable" for Sunday Silence. Should it indicate otherwise, one might, perhaps, look elsewhere for candidates within the Key Ancestor's Report.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Alan Porter — Sat, 02 Mar 2013 15:21:21 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

Just wanted to make a couple of comments, in addition to Ian's answers, on a couple of interesting points raised,

There definitely can be a "sire dominance" impact, in that stallions imported into a region can just be far superior to the locals (a couple of high-profile candidates to be regarded in that light might be Sunday Silence in Japan and Danehill in Australia), however from the TrueNicks aspect of the report those horses will still be competing against themselves, in as much as part of the calculation will be "how has Sunday Silence done with mares by x against how well he has done with all other mares). So even if a stallion is outperforming due purely to class differential, he is also most certainly going to have some preferred strains for reason of genotype and/or phenotype.

With regard to the Key Ancestor aspect, as Ian explained, it tends to mediate against a "super-sire" effect, and it does make it hard at minimum, for ancestor to show as positive, if he/she exerts a negative influence.

This bring me around to what I think is the key (pun unintentional) point. Rather like the Hippocratic Oath, our first concern when planning a mating is to "do no harm," that is to avoid matings that have little chance of success.

When the Key Ancestor Report with Analysis - combining Key Ancestor scores with TrueNicks ratings - is considered, it is hard, from a pedigree standpoint at least, to end up with a bad mating. Add to that considerations of quality, conformation, aptitude, temperament (and possibly commercial factors), and you will likely, at least eliminate stallions that have a low chance of giving a positive result.

No "rules based" program is going to be absolutely perfect, and intelligent interpretation is always going to be vital (so, happily we retain a human component), but the Key Ancestor report is rather remarkable for making universally available, in the space a relatively few minutes, the kind of insight into potential affinities for a mare that hitherto would have taken hours to research (even assuming that the data could have been easily obtained).

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Pasadena — Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:44:20 GMT

More specificly than Relauch, the family of Foggy Note. Through Relauch's full sister Moon Glitter. The best examples, I can find is Tapit and Summer Bird.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Mandrake Peru — Fri, 01 Mar 2013 20:54:46 GMT

Medaglia d oro

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

michael — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 21:48:02 GMT

i think the order should be this 1 medaglia doro

2 awesome again 3 tiznow 4 smart strike 5 street cry 6 hard spun

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

sceptre — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:35:42 GMT

Ian,

Agreed, but one isn't made privy to the list of all closely related dams-to be sufficiently able to interpret the data (we only receive a piece) in proper context (not enough context).

On another note-small annecdote: The great S. American stallion, Not For Sale, was, in past years, leased to a prominent breeder in Saudi Arabia-one of my advisees competitors. Well, despite the relative lack of stallion quality in Saudi Arabia, the Not For Sales have performed disappointingly. Just to underline some of Alan's remarks in the above piece.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Ian Tapp — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:33:56 GMT

sceptre,

That may be true, but the Key Ancestors Report is telling you which ancestors have done well with related mares, not why they have done well. It's the human's job to interpret the data in proper context.

Consider that the report has certain thresholds for ancestors to be rated; for example, they have to appear in at least 15 individual starters and meet a total contribution (blood impact) minimum. Ancestors also must have at least two unique descendants to be rated. These requirements, plus the fact that we're looking at both "successes" and "failures" for each ancestor, help guard against--or at least regulate--a potential "super-sire" effect.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

sceptre — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:02:00 GMT

Ian,

Re. this exercise (mating a S. American mare to a N. American stallion), it occurs that, aside from the relative lack of data available for the Key Ancestor's Report, etc., there is potentially another "pitfall" to using your Reports here. My strong guess is that there's far greater disparity (quality-wise) among S. American vs, say, N. American stallions. It would seem, all else equal, that the greater is this disparity, the less potentially "reliable" are your Reports. For example, a group of closely related mares may appear to do best with the lines of a Southern Halo, Not For Sale, Laramie Trail, Cipayo, etc., not so much because those lines possess an inherently greater affinitiy, but moreso because the stallions themselves were head and shoulders above that region's stallion population.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Ian Tapp — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:52:31 GMT

sceptre,

That's true. Had we run the report on established South American stallions, there would be more data for or against these bloodlines due to Almudena's group of related mares having had more exposure to South American stallions.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

jim of G — Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:57:03 GMT

I'm with BJ Kerr, if her owners have the wherewithall I'd go to Malibu Moon in a heartbeat so long as he is a physical fit. For a sentimental breeding why not consider Candy Ride?

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

sceptre — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:22:56 GMT

I think it should be said that there is a logical plan of attack to matings. What is that most logical plan (within our present level of understanding) is somewhere out there, perhaps within our grasp, but won't be found without much debate and research. One small facet of it may be (or may not be) the recognition that the approach may differ when dealing with a known talented runner (as, perhaps is Almudena) vs an untalented runner (consider if Almudena was unraced, etc.)... On another matter-re- the Key Ancestor's Report, the searches for similarly bred mares, etc.- Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I assume that if it was "run" on a long list of S. American stallions, instead of N. American stallions, one would find those with a far higher degree of "fit".

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Margaret Ann — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:48:15 GMT

Devil His Due, Cetaweyo, Kitten's Joy, Invasor, Animal Kingdom, Big Brown, Leroidesanimaux, Midnight Lute.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

garfs29 — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:35:55 GMT

Repent

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Karen in Indiana — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:43:02 GMT

Ranagulzion, I agree with using her as an outcross to Big Brown. And I kept thinking there was a horse standing here with Cipayo, just couldn't remember who - Invasor.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Ian Tapp — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:42:09 GMT

Pedigree Ann,

I looked up Miner's Mark... he has been pensioned at Blue Ridge Farm in Virginia since 2004.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Pedigree Ann — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:24:19 GMT

I would look at the sire Silver Planet and the dam Fire Legend to see what other strains worked well with them and their ancestors.

For example, Silver Planet sired another G1 winner named Luna Arrabalera; the reason for her breeding is easy to see from the fact that LA's third dam produced a Chilean Oaks winner from a mating to Fitzcarraldo (sire of Silver Planet).

LA is from a mare by Lode (Mr. Prospector-Grand Luxe, she a daughter of Fanfreluche) out of an Ahmad (Good Manners by Nashua) mare from the family of the great racemare Dorine (beat the boys in the GP 25 de Mayo), who was bred on the same cross as Forli - Aristophanes over Advocate. So these strains ought to be positive for a Silver Planet mare.

Fitzcarraldo was an outstanding stallion and there is plenty of data about the background of his best runners.

And Engrillado has sired more that a few good runners, including Malibu winner Lord Grillo, whose dam was a USA-bred by Match the Hatch (by Mr. Leader) out of an Explodent mare.

As pointed out, Almudena's 4th dam was a full sister to Argentine and US G1-type winner Figonero (who also held the dirt world record for 9f at one time). But her second dam was also a half-sister to the second dam of G2 winner Pepe Talk, by Confidential Talk (Damascus-mare by Lyphard-Numbered Account) out of a Pepenador (by Lucky Debonair) mare. CT was a 3/4 brother to Private Account, which is where I would probably start looking for a stallion, being the student of female families that I am.

The half-brothers Discreet Cat and Discreetly Mine are out of a Private Account mare, as are Vision and Verse, Aldebaran, and Good Journey. Afternoon's Deelites is by a son of Private Account. Miner's Mark would have been perfect (by Mr. P., like Lode, out of a 3/4 sister to Confidential Talk ie Personal Ensign) - what ever became of him?

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

T Chapman — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:32:43 GMT

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Edgar — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:35:05 GMT

Almuneda pedigree means stamita and some speed. Regarding Silver Planet he's been a very useful sire here in Argentina with not many opportunities through the number and quality of the mares he has served. Speed? Suzzane, a Silver Planet filly, is record horse in 7 furlongs.

Almuneda's brodmare sire is an interesting story. As a young horse he excelled in "cuadreras", very short races of two up to three furlongs.He came to our main tracks and was outstanding as a miler up to 10 furlongs!! As a sire he had many winners at distances from 10 to 12 1/2 furlongs (Lord Grillo) won the Malibu St G1 and 2nd in San Fernando G2 in USA)and several G1 winners at classic distances in Argentina

as Esposado, Tamariu, Basko Pintón. But beware of the dog: he had very bad knees and many of their offprings got that hands. I'd reccomend the sire with the best knees between the True Nicks list and a bit of speed, stamina seems to be guaranteed.

re: Mating Peruvian Champion Almudena

Annette — Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:02:05 GMT

The In Reality line. The likes of Intikhab or Charnwood Forest(Ire).