Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Rossco — Thu, 16 May 2013 01:46:34 GMT

my selection for black caviar would be Toylsome (GER).

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Nancy J — Sat, 27 Apr 2013 01:10:31 GMT

I offer another thought for Black Caviar's prospective stud candidate. A confirmation trait consideration. Barbaro had a confirmation that I haven't seen in many racehorses. He had a fairly flat croup. Many of his photos revealed a gift I haven't seen often, the tip of his real hoof past below his elbow several inches while totally airborne. While in top form he had a light "waist" if you will. He was built like a cheetah. Maybe a stallion with a proven record and with a croup on the flatter side would make a great distance foal. A possible forgotten speed asset from the Arabian foundation stallions?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Ania — Thu, 25 Apr 2013 06:43:21 GMT

Animal Kingdom!

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

fan — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 12:11:07 GMT

What about any of the Storm Cat line stallions? You mentioned you loved the Storm Bird/Nijinksy cross. Also, who were 3rd and 4th on the Key Ancestor's report?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

sceptre — Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:26:50 GMT

Looks like Dubawi won't be shuttling this year, and I suppose she'll be going to Redoute's Choice. Another good cross for her could be O'Reilly. It's from a different approach, but he looks quite good for her. Nearly all parts to his pedigree offer a pleasing blend, and he should well appreciate hers (including her Vains). I think he offers a better cross for her than Redoute's Choice. Question is-How much better as a sire (in reality) is Redoute's Choice than O'Reilly?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Alan Porter — Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:52:08 GMT

MZ,

Deep Impact is a strong nick (A+) on the basis of the Deep Impact/Nijinsky II cross.

Unfortunately, he scores less highly on the basis of Key Ancestors. He has Halo, a very strong negative, and his two positive ancestors, Northern Dancer and Sir Ivor, are only very slightly positive at their respective distances.

For those who have mentioned another Halo line horse, More Than Ready (or his son, Sebring). More Than Ready is a D nick, and also has a negative Key Ancestor Score.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Cheeba — Tue, 23 Apr 2013 07:46:27 GMT

What about Sebring?

His sire More Than Ready has been mooted here. He brings plenty of Aussie speed both in performance and pedigree and his broodmare sire is Flying Spur, a stallion that has had success with the family (Magnus, All Too Hard)

He has also made a reasonable start at stud and is therefore not unproven like the Animal Kingdoms and Pierro's of the world.

You could get all Boussac aswel and send her to All Too Hard!

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

downhomesunset — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 23:46:27 GMT

Tapit. Strong stallion who is only to get better.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

mz — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:53:41 GMT

Just to clarify, my comment about Deep Impact was just a general response to this blog, not an attempt to find "no Northern Dancer".

I, too, have some problems with a blanket statement that the Dancer is the reason for bad legs in thoroughbrreds, especially at his current remove from today's pedigrees.

I don't recall those kind of comments when he was in service. I do remember how everyone kept saying that his chestnuts were less desirable than his bays -- but then they had that weird little ditty about "four white socks and hit him on the head" or something and The Minstrel had both the chestnut coat and the four white legs. Ha!

Back to Deep Impact, Ian/Alan: what do the numbers say for a cross with Black Caviar? (At least he is on the same side of the International Date Line as she is.)

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

archer — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:34:37 GMT

All athletes battle injuries- but you think Northern Dancer is the reason for Black Caviar ?? He' s in her 4th, 5th & 6th Gen. How did you come to such a ridiculous conclusion?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Pasadena — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:29:11 GMT

Deep Impact has one cross to No. Dancer

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

ty — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:16:05 GMT

how about the sire of zenyatta, street cry. i like that there's no cross with nor dancer. black caviar battled a lot

of injury's in her career , i wouldn't buy a foal from her if

it's crossed with ND.(leg problem's)

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Tess — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 05:33:49 GMT

A cross with Lonhro would mean a foal carrying the genes of Eight Carat and Helsinge. Probably the 2 best broodmares in Australasian history.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

JorgeG — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 05:12:21 GMT

Thank you for your answer Ian...!

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

mz — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 03:56:36 GMT

Deep Impact?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Ian Tapp — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 01:42:13 GMT

4x5x6 is too much Northern Dancer?

Wise Dan 5x6x5

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Pasadena — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 00:11:47 GMT

I believe Black Caviar already has enough No. Dancer (x3)so needs to avoid any cross that adds to it. But upon quick review of top Australian sires, I couldn't find one that was devoid of No. Dancer. Is there a good Aussy sire with no No. Dancer?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Honest Ed's — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 00:01:11 GMT

My choice would be High Chaparral.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Ian Tapp — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 23:23:18 GMT

JorgeG,

To chime in for Alan, the adage is that foals from maiden mares tend to be smaller (due to uterine environment and nutrition). You'll hear the phrase "typical first foal" used if they are born weak or undersized. One study at Kansas State confirmed foals out of maiden mares are initially smaller, but they catch up by 4 months of age.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

JorgeG — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:42:56 GMT

Mr. Porter, what do you mean when you say "first foal factor"....?

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Racingfan — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:24:16 GMT

I would go with Dubawi or Tapit if she were to come here. Also Nancy J...Zenyatta's 2013 colt is not likely to be chestnut for long - he will almost certainly be grey.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Alan Porter — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:35:35 GMT

Nancy J,

Thanks for your post. As all horses have recessive and dominant genes, I’m going to guess from the context of your note that when you say “recessive gene horses” you are referring to homozygous chestnuts (horses who have inherited two chestnut alleles from their parents). To the best of our knowledge, there is absolutely no link whatsoever between the variant that causes red (chestnut) coat color and the size, or performance, of the heart (the same is true of humans since the variant that causes the chestnut coat color in the horse causes red or blond hair in humans). So there is absolutely no reason to suppose that a horse that has inherited the red coat color mutation of the MC1R gene – whether it be from its sire or dam – will have also inherited a specific variant or variants pertaining to heart size.

We can be equally sure that the idea of a single gene on the x-chromosome being responsible for heart-size is a myth. This was confirmed at the 2010 Pedigree and Genetics Symposium by three of the geneticists that were part of the Equine Genome project that sequenced the equine genome, one of whom, Dr. Matthew Binns, co-wrote the original horse genome map.

While there no evidence whatsoever for a single “large heart gene” inherited from Pocahontas, and zig-zagging its way through the breed via the x-chromosome, it is very likely that there are genetic variants that impact heart size and output. However, they are just as likely to be inherited from the sire as from the dam. Indeed, companies that perform heart-scans of thoroughbreds have noted that certain stallions tend to consistently pass on a particular heart size and shape.

We’ll finally note that the importance of heart size itself is also misunderstood. It is possible to have a large, but inefficient heart, and equally possible to have smaller, but very efficient one. What is important is that a horse has a heart that is appropriate to its specific phenotype and genotype. We can, however, categorically state that this will have nothing to do with its coat color, or its x-chromosome.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Nancy J. — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:50:38 GMT

In considering a stallion, I offer a different approach. Man O'War, Secretariat, Affirmed, Alydar, Smarty Jones, Curlin, Rags to Riches, Eskeyadendra, Animal Kingdom, and I'll Have Another all are recessive gene horses. Chestnut horses. I suspect recessive horses carry the largest hearts,on average,as well. I would simply ask if the aforementioned living recessive stallions disclose a cardiac monitoring test. I would especially consider a stallion that could offer recessive genes from his dam's side, the X factor could come into play. We may see this issue come into light in three years with another record breaking mare, Zenyatta. I can't wait to see her 2013 chestnut foal race in 2016.

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

Weekend Surprise — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:46:53 GMT

My first choice would be Galileo ,but Animal Kingdom or Lonhro would make more geographical sense , plus stamina to compliment Black Caviar's speed !

re: Black Caviar's First Mating: Is Redoute's the Right Choice?

sceptre — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:23:59 GMT

In response to Byron's comments, and those of Mr. Freyer:

Black Caviar's pedigree was reviewed in an earlier TrueNicks blog. On that occasion we were trying to sort out the pedigree "reasons" for her success. I had suggested that her double Tom Fools (through Silly Season/Adios and Lunchtime) together with her Nijinsky II could have played a major role. But in suggesting that, I was assuming that she inherited fortuitously some of Silly Season's very best genetic components of Tom Fool and, perhaps those very pieces that have historically blended so well with Nijinsky II's Menow (sire of Tom Fool) component. The key word here is fortuitously, since Silly Season was neither a truly gifted runner or sire-he may have sired well in Australia, back then, but it's doubtful that he (or Lunchtime) would have been first class international influences. I think it's a good rule of thumb to avoid linebreeding to non-first class influences. Ask yourselves, for example, which horse was more likely to transmit the better Tom Fool "brand"-Silly Season or Buckpasser; Silly Season or Mrs. Peterkin? This is one reason why I chose Dubawi for Black Caviar. The fact that Black Caviar may have inherited, fortuitously, great Tom Fool genes via Silly Season, etc. does not make it more likely that other sources of Silly Season-even her most proximal source-would offer similar fortuitous Tom Fool genes. So, if one reasons that it is "helpful" to augment Tom Fool to Black Caviar's Tom Fools, I think it better to provide them via a stronger influence. Same could be said for her Nijinsky II, but for that Royal Academy was probably a rather decent source for Nijinsky II (to begin with).