European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

Alan Porter — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 21:05:32 GMT

Hal,

You are obviously free to keep whatever lists you like, but it isn't going to alter what horses are recognized as Champion Sire in UK/Ireland.

There is a point at the scoring system change, just as there has been Premier League Soccer in England or NASCAR in the U.S., or Formula 1 world-wide (both the latter on a number of occasions), and doubtless countless other sports.

Now you might like to keep track of who would have been League or World Champion under the old scoring system, but that isn't going to give them the trophy, even if you don't agree with the new system.

Same with Dancing Brave, et al. Even if he did top the win money only table, he was never Champion Sire in UK/Ireland.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

Hal Dane. — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 01:55:58 GMT

ALAN., The Leading Sires Tables has from the very beginning always been WIN MONEY ONLY.. I continue to compile ONLY those statistics.. Dancing Brave has as much right to be called a champion sire in the UK & Ire, as Nearco, Fairway, Hyperion, Blandford, etc., all WIN MONEY champion sires.

Just because the system was changed in 1965, does not make it correct..

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

sceptre — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 23:32:18 GMT

Yes, Alan, I was aware of all that. Fact is, Hal Dane's statements-as stated- were absolutely false. And his conclusion-"...Sadler's Wells ONLY got his many titles through place money...", is terribly misleading, and inaccurate...And Hal, win money vs winners are quite different, wouldn't you say? And Hal, by the way, Dancing Brave was NOT the leader in win money (only) in 1993, it was instead, Sadler's Wells. Incidentally, all these stats are easily found (for free) on the Racing Post cite. If you scroll through it I think you'll find that your basic premise about Sadler's Wells is FALSE.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

Alan Porter — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:24:01 GMT

Sceptre,

I think what Hal is referring to is the antiquated European practice that persisted on into the 70s of frequently only dealing with "win money" as opposed to "earnings."

To at least the mid-70s we were still show catalogs with win earnings only, as they were still almost always being manually created (for example the vendor would often supply his own catalog pedigree).

At that time earnings had to be compiled the going back through additions of Weatherbys statistical annuals and supplements, and then looking through the form-book to add more recent earnings, race by race. To save labor, win money alone was often used.

It's possible that Dancing Brave and Nijinsky II may have had more "win" money Sadler's Wells and less than him by "earnings" but they certainly wouldn't have been leading sire by "winners" which is an entirely different list (the Weatherbys statistical annual used to give lists of leading sires by both wins and individual winners).

In the era that Hal is talking about, there was no leading sire by "win" money only, which is what he must mean, and Sadler's Wells is the official leading sire for the years in question, however you want to twist it.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

Hal Dane. — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:53:18 GMT

Sceptre... Champion Sires.. UK & Ire.. win money only.

For your information, the earliest results start in 1690.

1977. Northern Dancer

1978. Mill Reef

1979. Petingo

1980. Pitcairn

1981. Great Nephew

1982. Be My Guest

1983. Northern Dancer

1984. Northern Dancer

1985. Kris

1986. Nijinsky

1987. Mill Reef

1988. Caerleon

1989. Blushing Groom

1990. Sadler's Wells

1991. Caerleon

1992. Sadler's Wells

1993. Dancing Brave

1994. Sadler's Wells

1995. Nijinsky

1996. Sadler's Wells

1997. Danehill

1998. Sadler's Wells

1999. Fairy King

2000. Sadler's Wells

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

John T — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 01:36:51 GMT

Hi Hal

Hyperion spent 25 years at the stud and proved himself beyond question as one of the great sires of racing history.

He had a superb pedigree being by Gainsborough who was a son of the St. Leger winner Bayardo and was out of the Oaks winner Rosedrop. Gainsborough was a war time triple crown winner and was twice champion sire. The dam of Hyperion, Selene also produced Sickle who did extremely well in the U.S.A and from him are descended Native Dancer and Dan Cupid who went on to become the sire of Sea Bird.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

sceptre — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:56:01 GMT

I've read some pretty outlandish/inaccurate comments on these blogs, but Hal Dane's latest may just take the cake.

Hal Dane-cite your source(s), and if it's merely memory, I submit that yours is a poor one. Just for openers; How could Nijinsky II be the 1997 leading sire of winners in the UK/Ireland when he stood in the US? Your entire post is a joke-nearly every word of it. It's a real shame that the internet, particularly many of the BloodHorse blogs, has become a source of misinformation/re-writing of history.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

Hal Dane. — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 13:22:37 GMT

A few details ... during Sadler's Wells run of championships.. in 1993, Dancing Brave was the leading sire of winners in the Uk & Ireland, in 1995, it was Nijinsky, in 1997, it was Danehill, in 1999 it was in fact Sadler's Wells' younger brother Fairy King who was the leading sire of winners.

Sadler's Wells only got his many 'titles' through place money.. in some years his produce finished in fifth place beaten 20 lengths, yet added 'place money' to his total.

In history many Derby winners became great sires, Galileo is one of them, but you must consider that he has already spent a lifetime at stud, compared with old time Derby winners like Hyperion, etc.. who covered 160 mares in four years.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

John T — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 02:41:39 GMT

As you can see all the sires you mentioned go back to the master himself Northern Dancer. Who would have thought when we watched the 1964 Kentucky Derby when the little guy ''The Dancer'' Beat the big guy Hill Rise that he would go on to be the sire he was.Speaking of Frankel it was good to hear that the group 1 Winner Mid-day has had a filly by him and will be bred back. As for Galileo I think he has every chance of bettering his own sire Sadler's Wells.

re: European Sire Round-Up: Galileo Still on Top

sceptre — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:59:17 GMT

Nice breakdown, and it does appear that Galileo will remain on top for at least the next couple of years. While this more versatile sire may not, in the end, duplicate his sire's streak, it's my sense that Galileo is the better stallion. I say this because, even given Danehill, the Sadler's Wells stallion era was inferior to that of Galileo's, just as the quality of European runners today, and recent years, are superior to the runners of Sadler's Wells' time, and that of his offspring...This all said, one could posit that Galileo may have lucked out a bit, in that Dubai Millennium died so young (even though his start was short of expectation), and Sea The Stars, thus far, has had mediocre results vs opportunity. Re-Sadler's Wells vs Galileo, one, though, could also argue that Galileo has less competition at the classic end than did Sadler's Wells. It is this facet, perhaps more than anything else, that may allow Galileo to maintain his position. Dubawi, now with the support of large crops ahead, could just overtake him, and there's Fastnet Rock in the wings, but his oldest Europeans are only 3-and he's more the miler-type stallion and will encounter much competition from this aptitude.