Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

steve s — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:01:21 GMT

DYNAFORMERS can run on PLASTIC

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

HorseFirst — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:50:06 GMT

Funny, I see Baptize, even with the line breeding, having the short middle of Dynaformer, but the build of Northern Dancer/Secretariat. Dynaformer, even as an aged stallion, gives more the impression of the rangy horse that would run long. The one (caveat) picture of Baptize looks a bit-but not all- of the Dynaformer frame with a ND/Sec covering.

The problem with sons of Dynaformer is that to best replicate what he brings to the table might mean bringing in Roberto and Ribot again and there might be some hesitancy with that regarding temperment plus the tendency, especially in the American market, to prefer precocious speed balls to horses that can get more than a mile but take a little longer to grow up.

Seems a lot of times you'll find inbreeding or linebreeding in successful stallions that get stallion sons, even if it's 4-5-6 generation back.

Maybe the Dynaformer/Mr. P cross will produce a stallion candidate, but to me, the odds are against it. Would LOVE to have that proven wrong!

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ragsy — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:05:08 GMT

Alfonso, I just enjoy so much looking at those yearlings,foals and yes, I do have favorites in group..Cambados must be one super horse...then, Baptize y Torreylia,Baptize y Evening Gold and so many more are just awesome makes one want to get up close and personal with them...

some mighty beautiful horses there...

Again Many Thanks..

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Alfonso — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:37:19 GMT

About Roberto descendants, I think that Kris S is the likeliest to deliver good stallions. Arch looks a great stallion (just wait till his products out of good mares come). Rock Hard Ten is a good stallion prospect and I am sure that next year his results will be better than this one. In Europe, Lucky Story will make a mark. He received poor mares and from them he has deliver a good number of horses over 80 timeform, headed by Art Connoisseur who won a group 1 few days ago in UK. He is out of a danehill mare and he gave me some success as I wrote an article about Roberto and Danehill time ago. In Japan we have Symboli Kris S, who won the second crop list if my memory still works.

In Italy Blu Air Force is a real machine of delivering winners. Quality seems not so often in his progeny.

In Europe there is a big risk for the Roberto line, and it is that they a very good sires of National Hunt. This is a real pity because most of them finish there. The Epsom derby winner, Kris Kin, is covering national hunt mares, when he won the classic with the third best time ever. The problem is that small countries in turf as we are would love to have stallions as Kris Kin, but we cannot compete with the national hunt, as there they can cover more than a hundred mares.

Thoroughbreds are not developing so much in the last years because fasion is the main issue. There was an extremely interesting article in Racing Post long ago that showed that most group winners or placed horses in the ascot meeting, were raced by owner-breeders, meaning that one thing are the trully superior stallions and another are the comercial ones. Unfortunately, Roberto descendants are uncommercial here in Europe.

Regards

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Alfonso — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:13:01 GMT

About Roberto Sons, we had one here in Spain called Don Roberto which was a real jewell for us. He covered when the Madrid Race court was closed and our turf was nearly disapearing. Don Roberto was covering less than 10 mares a year, but from that he delivered Persian Ruler (Group3 winner in France and Group1 placed in Germany), Okawango (listed winner in France and twice winner of the Gobierno Vasco, once a Listed and GP de San Sebastian, yes the one that great teddy won), Robertiya (won everything in Spain and her quality was rewarded as she was de dam of Volvoreta, Vermelle winner (Group1 france) and third in the Arc and Douberta, undefeated in Spain, then mother of La Cibeles (Grade3 placed in france), who has delivered the great Literato.

One important thing about Roberto sons is that their progeny doesn´t like heavy conditions, and in France or UK, you nearly always find that. That is in my opinion, the reason why they do well in dirt and of course in turf when the ground is firm. Here we have nearly always firm ground and they love it.

Regards

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Alfonso — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:55:49 GMT

Thank you Ragsy,

if you are interested I can show you some videos of his progeny.

www.dailymotion.com/.../x6r6n4_20080914-n-355-lz-frbc-2a-potros-c_sport

This is cambados. It´'s easy to follow him because he is the one running in front (Green).

The next one is very interesting, because the three running in front are Baptizes and they outrun the others:

www.dailymotion.com/.../x8247i_20090104-n-02-dh-viveiro-reparado_sport

In the following link, one can see the yearlings sold last year by the Galicia Project, were one can find a lot of baptizes. The photos were taken by an amateur, and were not used as a marketing tool, so the quality, the angles and so on are not very good:

subastas2009.blogspot.com/.../datos-provisionales-subasta-2008.html

I calculated Baptize AEI and CI, and the AEI last year was 1,21 and his CI, 0,59 so he received very poor mares.

Here you have a foal from Baptize:

www.youtube.com/watch

We are used in Europe to the Northern Dancer type. Rather small, very compact horses, so the Baptize yearlings were not well received at the sales. "Two tall" for what we are used and with a big head. But the races are showing that they are very sound and that he improves mares. The only thing that he must show is that he can deliver group horses in France or Uk, but that of course depend on the mares.

Regards

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ragsy — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:11:06 GMT

Alfonso:

Many thanks for your addition information about the offspring of Dynaformer. Baptize is one beautiful, awesome horse and reminds me of his father Dynaformer....Its too hard to see Navaron.. picture is not the greatest to get a feeling of his confirmation and attitude....

I have tried to find offspring (males) of Dynaformer and found some but not many....

Thank You so much......

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Alfonso — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:40:11 GMT

Hi everyone,

it seems that the affinity can be passed to his sons. In Spain, Dynaformer son, Baptize, won the two year old championship as a sire with his first crop. From that first crop, the best horse in value has been Navaron; www.pedigreequery.com/navaron2

He is out of a Lycius (Mr Prospector) mare. Navaron was second to As De Trebol in the Torre Arias. As de Trebol won a Group3 in France but was disqualified to second place by the stewards in a very strange decission. In the next link, one can see Navaron (red with yellow cap) finishing strongly.

www.dailymotion.com/.../x95a7j_20090412-n-100-lz-potros-c-as-de-tr_sport

Baptize is a masive horse, that is transmiting a strange phisical type; very tall horses, with a great pace and that perhaps lack off a bit of turn of foot. His progeny is very sound and a bit bad tempered (that's why there are son many geldings in Dynaformer Progeny).

One thing that I find very interesting is that he is delivering two types of hair colour. Very dark brown horses as he is, and Dynaformer hair colour. The second ones are being incredibly better than the first ones. In fact only one very dark brown has win.

They are very sound and they can run a lot of races, and they need to run quite a lot to be on fit.

Regards,

Alfonso

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Pedigree Shelly — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:02:05 GMT

Thank goodness for Dynaformer,he's one of the few stallions left that are a good source of stamina besides AP Indy ,Street Cry and a few others ! Iwant to wish Nicanor luck in his upcoming race ! He could very well be our next turf star !!!

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ragsy — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:36:40 GMT

Dynaformer is one intelligent hoss, doesnt even come close to stupid....yaa, I too would like to know what the name of that tb book...Early Speed....

Alan Porter very good information there...many thanks....

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Colmel — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:12:14 GMT

We bred to Dynaformer his first two years at stud (WHAT a bargain!). As for being "stupid," I would say that he is not stupid, but very willful. He is a very large horse who understands his strength. It takes a very skillful handler to keep him in check. I know that when he raced, they needed to use a ring-bit on him.

The mare we bred to him was by a son of Ribot out of a Jaipur mare (who was, in turn, out of a Noor mare). Our hope was to end up with a good turfer. Sadly, The first mating resulted in a slip,and the second was disastrous (foal too big to be delivered).

I firmly believe that Dynaformer will be remembered as the preeminent son of Roberto at stud. I like the looks of Purim and am hoping that Barbaro's brothers also enter the breeding market successfully.

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Dan — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:33:39 GMT

The real sire in this discussion is Roberto; look at his progeny!

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Tracy — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:55:02 GMT

I believe we will all be pleasantly surprised by Dynaformers sons by La Ville Rouge when they stand at stud,in particular keep an eye on Lentenor.

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Alan Porter — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:42:29 GMT

Hi all:

To try and answer various above; as per an early note Dynaformer is unusual physically as he's a tall horse with a very short middle-piece.

Roberto's pedigree was designed by the late Olin Gentry, and has a very restricted gene pool with inbreeding or linebreeding to Nasrullah/Royal Charger, the brothers Bull Dog and Sir Gallahad III,, and Blue Larkspur.

Roberto - bred at Darby Dan - loved the Darby Dan family that goes back to Golden Trail, Sunny Vale, Sun Mixa (the formula also produced Sunshine Forever, Darby Creek Road, Brian's Time - very good sire in Japan - and Ryafan).

Of Dynaformer's sons, Blumin Affair sired stakes winners in Iowa, and Milt's Overture has done well in Chile (had a Champion). Looking at Blueformer, I see the dam has a double of Nearctic (dam a daughter of Hyperion, having a rather similar background to Alibhai and Heliopolis, Hyperion sons in the dam of Dynaformer). Phone Trick's broodmare sire, Finnegan is bred on a similar cross to the dam of Roberto. That said, there has never been a Roberto/Phone Trick stakes winner - maybe too much of a clash of types.

It's not impossible that Dynaformer's grade one winning son, Purim, could make a similar climb to his sire; Nicanor, the brother to Barbaro, could turn out to be a high-class turf horse. Wiener Walzer will have a good shot in Germany, and of course he could still come up with a good racing son, who will be commercial, especially with all-weather tracks.

He's started well as a broodmare sire, especially considering the mares he covered early in his career. He's going to be very influential for a long time to come in that role.

Re: Montbrook as a sire of sires. You'd have to say that he's not been as good as one might have hoped - Thunderello has sired a good horse in Monterey Jazz, but they haven't produced the slew of fast horses one might have expected.

It's just a fact that some stallions, although very good sires in their own right just don't get exceptional sons - Bull Lea would be one example in the U.S., Habitat in Europe. Maybe it is a combination of factors, relationship of the best sons to the breed as a type; x-chromosome factors?

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ryan Zabrowski — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:19:16 GMT

Early Speed - what is the title of the book you read refering to Dynaformer as "stupid"?

DQ - here is s link to wikipedia about phenotype. Basically, Dynaformer is not "balanced". You like to see a balanced ratio between is height and length. He has more height than length. So my comment was to bred him to mares with more length to achieve "balance through breeding".

en.wikipedia.org/.../Phenotype

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

DQ — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:03:16 GMT

I was also interested in better understanding what you meant by the comment, "Dynaformer..a horse with a fairly unusual phenotype "

Thank you. DQ

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Rosana Rivera — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:50:44 GMT

I tend to agree that the chances of having a son of Dynaformer hit it big as a stallion are slim at this point. However how about his "regional" sire sons? I wonder if there are any worth mentioning. On the other hand talking about "regional" markets one of his sons Blueformer (in Dominican Republic and o/o Tangled Up in Blue, thus 1/2 to Exogenous) hit it big with his son Sicotico. He won the Clasico del Caribe last year over other caribbean basin breds. Any comments about Blueformer's pedigree, more specifically with the Dynaf. x Phone Trick cross? Regards, Rosana

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

EarlySpeed — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:27:06 GMT

I thought Dynaformer was pensioned due to the ravages of age.

One book about Thoroughbreds described Dynaformer as "stupid," but is he really?

I am fascinated in any article that discusses good crosses and why, and why other crosses might not be so good regarding ability or soundness. If I ever have a lasting "wealth breakthrough," I am hoping to own one or two very nice broodmares.

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

RGGC — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 22:54:36 GMT

I am just a fan who depends alot on bloodlines. I love when I see a Dynaformer/Mr.P horse running on the card. I know that I will get a real good run for my money. Long live Dynaformer!

And as far as a stud that was great that didn't have a son to carry on his male line, how about Alydar. His sons weren't so great at stud although they were great at the track. I hope Benchmark sires a champion before his career is over. Grazen looks like a nice colt, maybe he has a shot.

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ragsy — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:42:07 GMT

I am just sorry that Dynaformer is 24 years old and his sire days are numbered...now.. that folks know that he is a good sire and rather productive in producing winners......

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Ryan Zabrowski — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:13:40 GMT

Dynaformer may beneift from a longer mare which IMO is why he mates well with the Relaunch/In Reality sire line. I have been told that his offspring are some of the strongest horses in training. My friend told me that it takes everything he has to pull up Dynaformer horses "there like riding bulls".

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

longtimeracingfan — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:16:17 GMT

Maybe now that Dynaformer is getting better, and more suitable, mares for his phenotype, there will come a son to carry on for him. Barbaro, had he lived, certainly would have been a prime candidate. His siblings? Toooooo soon to tell, maybe in 2-3 years we'll know.

And being a good broodmare sire isn't all THAT bad, Secretariat seems to have done okay in that department. Look how many major sires are out of his daughters...

there is a line of thinking that says some high physical ability traits carry from mother to son and father to daughter. Maybe someday someone will run a study on this idea?

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Mdurio — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:42:44 GMT

Alan, How about some comments about Dynaformer as a broodmare sire. I'm very impressed with Monterey Jazz. He's by Thunderello by Reefside by Dynaformer. Also, how about a discussion on Montbrook as a sire and as a sire of sires.

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

Justine — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:35:43 GMT

@ ROBERT: Aren't most of his early sons gelded? And Barbaro died, so there aren't many high profile Dynaformers at stud. However there is Purim, and if any of La Villa Rouge's sons do well enough to merit a chance...

There's hope yet!

re: Dynamite Dynaformer Crossed With Mr. Prospector

JD — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:40:47 GMT

As the Dynaformer cross to the Diesis line is known to produce well, it makes sense that crossing him to other turf/distance types might also net results. Would this, then, hold true across the board? For Dynaformer on other D/T types and Prospector lines to D/T if the type fits?