Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part V (Conclusion)

TrueNicks — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:14:23 GMT

In the conclusion to the series, Dr. Fishman discusses his choice of Big Brown for a 2009 mating and offers encouragement to his fellow Thoroughbred enthusiasts.

Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part IV

TrueNicks — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:33:36 GMT

In part IV of the series, the breeder of a recent black type winner reveals many of the pedigree and conformation considerations that he deliberated for the stakes winner's dam.

Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part III

TrueNicks — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:07:04 GMT

Successful breeder Dr. Robert Fishman continues recounting the story of a stakes winner. In this post, we read about the many stallions considered for the young mare Refrain, in the seasons leading up to the emergence of Girfrienontheside.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Dr. Robert Fishman — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:56:15 GMT

Just got off phone with Wesley Ward. I had called to learn Lifestyle's precise location at stud. Wesley informs that the horse did stand the 2009 season in Illinois, but he's back now at his farm in Fl. Lifestyle will stand in 2010, but Wesley isn't yet sure where. I urge everyone to visit the current "podcast"/transcript on Wesley, which currently appears on the BloodHore site. There, Wesley is asked about who was the most talented horse he'd ever trained. Read his remarks about Lifestyle.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Dr. Robert Fishman — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:44:31 GMT

Dear Aussie Racer (and others interested):

At your request, I'll attempt to recount why I chose Capote for Inlaw. Be reminded that none of Inlaw's produce had yet raced prior to this mating.

As already mentioned, it was my view that Inlaw's pedigree provided relatively little to "bite back into" effectively. Was there a pattern or a "nick" worthy of reinforcement? One can observe that she was 4x4 Northern Dancer; that she was "nicked" a bit to Mr. Prospector/Raise A Native-yielding a multiple Native Dancer line-breeding; and that she was also a fortified *Nasrullah-Mr. Prospector "nick". Well, the 4x4 Northern Dancer was smething to consider, especially since it ws through the close relatives, Nijinsky II and Fanfreluche (excellent runners, sires/producers)-Were their contributions worthy of "biting back into"? I suppose I could have made a case for in-breeding to Nijinsky II using such logic, with the added rationale that he was in partresponsible for Gold Seam's and Inlaw's "leg". Even had I accepted this, there were no suitable candidates available...I rejected the idea of bringing in any more of the Mr.P.-Raise A Native/Northern Dancer combo (multiple doses of Native Dancer)...Dr. Fager would have been a desireable addition (right "nick", right type, and her pedigree would have certainly benefitted ((the Gold Seam portion)) from his *Bull Dog-Teddy). Once again, there were no suitable representatives. For that matter, a Dr. Fager-Buckpasser combo would have been better yet. Actually, if I had had my druthers, the chosen stallion would have been one whom I admired (ability-wise, and physically), and that possessed a "dose" of Buckpasser, Dr. Fager, and *Nasrullah to name a few. This is part of my process when formulating a mating. I attempt to isolate the influences most desired (for the particular mare), and then search for a worthy representative. Thoughts such as these influenced my mating decisions for Inlaw from the outset. No acceptable stallion stood out (pedigree-wise), and since Inlaw's physical quality was another avenue for the potential "home-run" I focused as well on it...Yes, Halo "blood" was another to consider, as were sons of Kris S (Kris S, himself, appeared most desireable-pedigree-wise, and physically-but was not affordable; he was, however, on the list for her 5th mating). Had Private Account still been in service in 2002 I would have chanced him, although he hadn't demonstrated much affinity for Inlaw's pedigree...Seattle Slew "blood" had always been a consideration. His would offer some "true" *Nasrullah, and he did well with Mr. Prospector (would yield a distant line-breeding to Myrtlewood), and Inlaw was 5x5 *Princequillo (not paticularly close, but Slew loved extra *Princequillo). I rejected all sons of A P Indy, and Seattle Slew's son, Capote, seemed the most suitable candidate. His *Nasrullahs equated to a 3x3, and they were primarily through two "last-stop" superior *Nasrullah representatives, Seattle Slew and Too Bald. Capote had also demonstrated a marked preference for Mr. Propector-line mares (as well as for Vice Regent-but Inlaw's Northern Dancers were far from credible substitutes). Capote was free of Native Dancer (one could argue this as the reason for his affinity with Mr. P. and Vice Regent), and he also contributed some *Bull Dog at 5x5. Physically, for Inlaw, he was not great, but ok; fitting least of her three previous mates. To my eye he was a fairly attractive, racy individual, with adequate leg, but was somewhat long-backed and tended to sire similar. Capote, by then, had an extensive record as a sire which was, for me, a mixed bag. I felt he was quite inconsistent, and better mates did little to change this. He seemed also incapable of siring a truly top horse. I did finally book Inlaw to him, but with some reservation. Their colt was another Inlaw masterpiece. He had similar leg to Lifestyle with a bit more scope, was very correct and with good bone, had not quite Lifestyle's musculature, but as the others, was very handsome with beautiful flow. Many felt he was the best looking of all the Saratoga Select yearlings that year. He brought $350,000, but Mill Ridge and I were expecting more. D. Wayne Lukas purchased him for Overbrook, and he was later sent to Dallas Stewart. I saw again at Saratoga as a 2 yr. old., and he appeared to have developed quite well. I know they liked him then, but I never spoke to them since. I witnessed a few of his earlier races, where he seemed to be climbing, and had a rather round action. I don't know if he developed temperament issues, as was often the case with Capotes.

As to your question about common breeding mistakes- I'd rather not venture into this here/now. Suffice for now to say that-one should embrace the mating of thoroughbred racehorses with a healthy degree of humility. Learn all you can, but never conclude that any mating is a near certainty...As to your statement about every mares' potential- Some have far better chance than others, it can be increased by the more "perfect" mating, but it is possible for any mare to produce a stakes winner should the mating result in a fortuitous spin of the genetic wheel-but not a likely hope.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Ryan Zabrowski — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:27:42 GMT

Dr. - Where in Illinois will Lifestyle stand? What is the name of the farm?

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Aussie Racer — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:53:42 GMT

Dear Dr. Fishman,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions and for your kind words.

I am not sure that your other readers would agree that these issues are not relevant, I feel that your description of the journey towards Girlfrienontheinside is as important as the final destination and for me, at least, they add significantly to my understanding of your breeding thought process and make the achievement of Girlfrienontheinside even more significant.

I do have a few supplementary questions if you have the time.

As was the case with Out of Place, when you are looking to add sires such as Damascus and Buckpasser, how far back in the pedigree can they appear and still be influential, and is it your preference that they generally come through a female of male line to be most effective?

Personally, I agree with your assessment of One Handsome Dude’s potential, of the four offspring his was the most genetically homogeneous pedigree, and in my opinion, if he was outstanding as a 2 year old he would have been truly exceptional as he got older and grew into his pedigree.

From your comments on the selection of Out of Place, they appear to primarily centre around more Phenotypical traits and the desire to match and complement Inlaw’s own qualities, with the Genotypical issues being of slightly lesser concern, was this the actual case, and had Inlaw not have been the ‘correct’ type of horse that she was would your focus have been any different.

I am sure that I am not alone in asking that you please elaborate further on your rational for Capote, it truly was a very significant breeding choice and I would therefore encourage you to discuss this further.

I appreciate your desire to stay on topic, but can you please answer a more general question, from your own assessment of current breeding trends and practices what would you say were the more common breeding mistakes, and given the variety of mares and stallions being bred what is your view on the statement ‘every mare has the potential to produce a stakes performer if bred to the correct stallion’.

Thank you again for sharing your experiences and knowledge with us all.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Dr. Robert Fishman — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 04:55:16 GMT

Dear Aussie Racer,

Appreciate your interest, and envy your writing skills...I didn't elaborate on the matings which produced One Handsome Dude and Top Player, because they pertained least to the title of this piece...Out Of Place had given evidence of being a good sire at the time he was relocated to Claiborne. He wasn't exactly my cup of tea as a racehorse, but was siring size, "leg", and speed (a relatively rare package). I considered him fairly well bred-his sire, Cox's Ridge, was just an "ok" (relative to others in this portion of a pedigree), but his dam , Arabian Dancer, had talent, and was beautifully bred. Physically, Out Of Place very much resembled Inlaw, and had often sired this physical type. Inlaw's black-type half-sister was by Cox's Ridge. Out Of Place offered Inlaw a rather close Damascus (had worked quite well with M. P.-Raise A Native), and a strong Buckpasser ("strong" in that it was through two capable decendants). I had very much wanted Buckpasser "blood" for Inlaw. Inlaw was line-bred to Northern Dancer and Out Of Place was a *Turn-To -line stallion through top and typical *Turn-To representatives. All this was a bit distant, but the Northern Dancer-*Turn-To nick is rather potent. His pedigree blend with Inlaw's would appear to be a bit stout, but as said, Out Of Place was siring speed. Out Of Place had seemed to show an affinity for mares of size and leg, but had not demonstrated a preference for mares of Inlaw's pedigree. Lastly, there were precious few stallions out there that I liked, or that suited her, and even less in the appropriate price range. This cross did produce exactly what I had envisioned-of her four foals, One Handsome Dude most resembled Inlaw. He was vey, very, athletic-looking and leggy, had a beautiful flowing neck, and lovely top line. He was an outstanding weanling ( but, had not the muscle tone of Lifestyle as a weanling) in every way and sold accordingly. Hard to believe that he wouldn't have become a classy runner; all very sad, and not forgotten.

Better that I save for another time Top Player's rationale. Of the four, I'd guess that pedigree pundits would agree most with the Capote selection for Inlaw. You, or others, should let me know if you're interested in reading about it.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

D. Robert Fishman — Sat, 01 Aug 2009 00:43:13 GMT

Dear Mr. Zabrowski,

Per your request, I'll offer a bit more on MDNA/horses:

Both the horse and human genome contain about 20,000-25,000 genes. Most of these genes are located within the nucleus (of the cell), but some genes-about 37-are contained within the cell's mitochondria. So, you can see that mDNA (the genes are composed of DNA) is a tiny amount when compared to nuclear DNA. The mitochondria (an organelle of the cell) performs very important functions, but of the approx. 3000 proteins synthesized there all but about 13 are coded for in the nucleus (the genes in the nucleus). mDNA does code for the synthesis pathway in oxidative phosphorylation (the synthesis of ATP)---the cell's energy "needs", but most of this too is accomplished/coded for by nuclear DNA. I realize this all sounds rather technical, but it's difficult to explain it differently without a lengthy tutorial. Suffice to say that mDNA does exert an affect, but it's relatively minimal when compared to nuclear DNA (and Mendelian inheritance). I should add that mDNA(mitochondrial genes)) does vary more greatly (from individual to individual) than does nuclear DNA, so its "importance" as it relates to horse breeding may be a bit more significant than the numbers suggest. As to your other question- I did mention that Lifestyle went to stud (in Illinois) this year-2009. His first foals should arrive in 2010. I have no ownership interest in him whatsoever. I've often attempted to re-acquire him (offered Wesley an even trade when Girlfrienonthesside was a yearling), but Wesley refuses to let him go.

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Aussie Racer — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:45:55 GMT

Hi Dr. Fishman,

Thank you for an exceptionally interesting article.

In your article you have described in detail the selection process and criteria for Unbridled's Song, and to a lesser extent Indian Charlie, in particular the phenotypic/ genotypic influences together with specific pedigree considerations, can you please outline the similar consideration in your selections of Out of Place and Capote?

While Top Player performed well at the sale and was clearly highly regarded by the market I get the sense from your comments that you were disappointed with his race performance. With the luxury of hindsight do you have a view on why he did not perform as well as you may have expected and given that you have possibly revisited his sire’s selection process on several occasions was his performance in anyway predictable given your current improved body of knowledge?

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

Ryan Zabrowski — Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:11:54 GMT

Thank you for you suggestion on reading up on Meiosis. I have been reading as much as I can find on MDNA in thoroughbreds for the past couple of years. I would love to hear you expand on the topic of MDNA. I also looked up Lifestyle only to find there is no informaiton on him on pedigeequery thoroughbredtimes, or bloodhorse. When are his offspring expected to start running?

re: Developing a Stakes-Winning Thoroughbred Filly, Part II

SGillies — Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:52:37 GMT

Editor's note: I encourage readers who are following this story to read the Comments section of Part I. There, Dr. Fishman has responded to several questions with additional information that will be of interest to breeders and pedigree students.