Miss Steele: a Case for a Clever Inbreeding

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

sceptre — Tue, 20 May 2014 15:13:55 GMT

Alan,

Most certainly, close inbreeding TO quality individuals had been taken for granted. My point, however, wasn't that one should inbreed TO quality individuals (which obviously one should) but, rather, that it is far more productive if they also inbreed THROUGH quality individuals. Perhaps my choice of the word THROUGH was too vague. Anyway, it was my understanding that this was/is a fairly accepted dictum (not necessarily one I share). It would, though, tend to favor inbreeding/linebreeding through exclusively male lines. The reasoning behind this is fairly apparent, but whether or not it's correct (truly mirrors reality) is another matter. As example, consider a Bold Ruler linebreeding through Boldnesian-Bold Reasoning-Seattle Slew and say, Raja Baba-Is it True-Yes It's True. Now consider if the latter (instead of Yes It's True etc.) was a poor runner and producer, out of a poor runner/producer who was sired by Bold Ruler. The "idea" here is that the benefit one would derive from ONLY the Bold Ruler inbreeding/linebreeding would be greater in the first example-that ,here, it is more likely for one to "capture" more of the better Bold Ruler genes/better chance to achieve a + "grouping" (a grouping that may have in part been responsible for Bold Ruler's greatness).

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

Hal Dane — Tue, 20 May 2014 14:52:40 GMT

Clever inbreeding.. The four great/grandsires of sunday's Polish 1000 Gns winner, GREEK SPHERE, were :- Northern Dancer - Shirley Heights - Northern Dancer - Darshaan (son of Shirley Heights)

Irish bred.. I believe she is unbeaten..

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

Alan Porter — Tue, 20 May 2014 01:09:42 GMT

Sceptre/jmcnatt

To tackle the last of Sceptre's points first, there is definitely an economic aspect (or aspects) to my thinking on this. Certainly when I have clients with large broodmare bands, I will tend to be aggressive with their less expensive stock, as I feel close inbreeding (to quality individuals, which I should have stated, but I guess had taken for granted would be implied) is the best chance of upgrading a pedigree. Someone with 100 mares would almost certainly be better of trying to get one really good horse an a bunch of bad ones from their bottom 25 mares.

There is also an economic aspect with a smaller breeder who is going to be limited with regard to the class of stallion they can use.

If we look at Miss Steele, her dam was a minor winner in three starts, and three-quarters sister to a graded winner from a family that had not achieved much lately. The main negative was her sire, Shagny, a failure as a runner, sire and broodmare sire, but a well-bred horse (by Blushing Groom out of a sister to Storm Bird).

I would say, then that breeding her to a Storm Bird line horse made sense (and oddly enough, and so that we are not accused by being wise after the event, we write the Stallion Synopsis for Eliza Park International, who stand Statue of Liberty, the sire of Miss Steele, and we had recommended trying him with Shagny mares).

Statue of Liberty, a very well-bred horse who was at least a useful runner, winning the Coventry Stakes (gr. III), had at least shown the ability to get a high-class runner from his limited initial opportunities, and for a "breeder on a budget" the mating would seem to have offered a better shot than something more "vanilla."

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

sceptre — Mon, 19 May 2014 20:51:59 GMT

jmcnatt:

Your last sentence-"Inferior horses with no running ability ONLY..." There's your error (fallacy). Your previous sentence in which you state:"...MIGHT be pooling..." is more accurate.

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

jmcnatt — Mon, 19 May 2014 09:04:47 GMT

One thought- When inbreeding it might be critical that the individuals through which the inbreeding is being pooled as well as the descending ancestry line show the ability to RUN otherwise you might be pooling NON-RUNNING genes forward through inferior individuals going back to that great runner. Inferior horses with no running ability only have that quality to pass on if used in breeding designs.

re: Miss Steele - a case for a clever inbreeding

sceptre — Sat, 17 May 2014 17:05:06 GMT

You tend to avoid very close inbreeding when dealing with high-level stock. You seem to favor close inbreeding in trying to upgrade less expensive stock. It's been my observation that your "rule" (above) is indeed a proper course. But...it somewhat flies in the face of another dictum, i.e. inbreed through only top quality sources; avoid inbreeding through weak sources (ex. Miss Steele). So, at least on the surface, we see some "contradiction", but 1) is the operant point here CLOSE inbreeding?, and 2) could this (your) suggestion relate more to the "economics" of breeding (in that in may be more fiscally sound to breed for the "homerun" and "swallow" the EXCESS wastage)?...As you say, so many variables to contend with-so difficult to construct a meaningful study re-the pros vs cons of inbreeding.