Silver Lining

re: Silver Lining

Steve Ellis — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 23:59:27 GMT

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your input,really appreciate it.

I note the broodmare Balmerino line(Balmahal) left a Group winner in Prairie by sire Canny Lad.We have a Stallion in NZ called D'Cash that has Canny Lass a full sister to Canny Lad on the bottom line.

What are your views of my thinking of giving this Stallion(D'Cash)a chance with my mare Malibu Barbie?

Surely if the cross with Canny Lad worked with the Balmerino Broodmare Sire line there is a royal chance it will work again?

Regards,

Steve

re: Silver Lining

Alan Porter — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:21:13 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

That's a very interesting idea. I suppose in practice whether some of the genes that may effect energy pathways and related systems, are recessive, or the result of polymorphisms, would have a similar looking end result, in as much as they are expressed in a minority of the population.

If my understanding is correct, though, polymorphism could potential result in genes that expressed themselves in a smaller percentage of the population than in a straightforward expression of recessive traits.

I guess to complicate things, we have epistasis - where the expression of a gene or genes influenced by other genes that don't even have to be on the same chromosome. I've often wondered if there is anything on the x-chromosome that has a catalytic effect.

I think there is an interesting article to be written on the potentially different effects of recessive genes, polymorphism, epistasis, and super-genes, and how it they might be utilized in matings. I'd admit that well I have a broad grasp, it's one that might be a little beyond me to grasp. Is it something you would tackle?

Anyway, thank you for a thought- provoking contribution. I certainly think some of these more complex methods of inheritance are going to explain some of the pedigree patterns that seem to work.

Best,

Alan

re: Silver Lining

Alan Porter — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:55:02 GMT

Hi Steve,

Malibu Barbie certainly has an intriguing pattern with the three Dulcie crosses, including a three-parts-brother and sister at the top and bottom of the pedigree.

Istidaad also has some interesting linebreeding, to Miss Disco (dam of Bold Ruler) and her brother Loser Weeper.

What you would be hoping is that some elements in that background work with Dulcie or Dreamy Carlyle. There are some tie-ups, and I see that Dulcie does have Posterity, a half-brother to the dam of Display (grandsire of Miss Disco and Loser Weeper). Dreamy Carlyle has a half-sister to Nearco, the grandsire of Bold Ruler.

Istidaad also has a lot of Bull Dog and Sir Gallahad III, and that might help, as there is a fair bit of Bend Or/Macaroni in the key background of the mare.

Good luck with the mating.

Regards

Alan Porter

re: Silver Lining

Steve Ellis — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 06:35:35 GMT

I would love to get your views on a mare that I bred that is inbred to Dulcie mother of Champion NZ horse Balmerino.The mares name is Malibu Barbie inbred 4x4x5 to Dulcie and inbred 3x4 to Dreamy Carlyle grandam of Hong Cup winning horse Kessem.

I'm very excited about the filly she left by Istidaad called Shanghai Lil whom I'm just about to break in.

She has straight legs and very calm temperament,very professional in all ways.

Perhaps i will find out that I have bred a very slow horse.

But who knows she could be a freak.

Malibu Barbie slipped her second foal to Patapan.

She is back in foal to Istidaad.

re: Silver Lining

sceptre — Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:36:31 GMT

Dear Alan,

Your post of 2/23 surprises me. The combined message of your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs suggest that you may be attributing to recessive genes effects (and a mechanism) that are better attributed to polymorphisms (alternative alleles at same locus). Along the same line, there appears to be a subtle contradiction when comparing "Roger's" 1st paragaph with his 6th...If you ponder on it for a while, you may conclude that inbreeding's/linebreeding's potential advantages likely result more from my dynamic (explanation) than from yours or Roger's, and is by far the more likely scenario for inbred sires/dams which achieve success well beyond apparent expectation.

re: Silver Lining

sceptre — Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:24:16 GMT

Better that I preface my comment-It is offered not to denegrate another, but rather over concern that others might accept Roger from Austrailia's views as near gospel (especially as he was quick to offer his "credentials"). My guess is that Alan also would dispute some of "Roger's" facts and line of reasoning, but may feel a bit handcuffed to voice it here...So, I suggest that others read Roger's comments with a grain of salt (to say the least). If in fact he does possess a "degree in molecular genetics" (what level/what school?) it seems apparent to me that his perspective is limited when it comes to pedigree research, etc. I feel there is some validity to his first paragraph, (you know what they say about a little bit of truth), but the rest he will find difficult (likely impossible) to substantiate (and I'm being kind here). Not enough space here to specifically refute each of his claims. Now that I've opened the door, perhaps Alan might feel a little more comfortable to weigh in (but again, this may not be the place). Lastly, this may be a good example why we shouldn't be so quick to accept the results of "scientific studies" from those with limited past experience in the subject matter. They often make false assumptions and/or fail to recognize the breadth of variables.

re: Silver Lining

Alan Porter — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:08:31 GMT

Roger from Australia,

Thanks for the very interesting e-mail.I agree that often a nick is a form of short-hand for what is happening further back in the pedigree.

I'd also very much agree that what is separating the really good horse from the pack is some important recessives that you really do have to refine down to the level of molecular biology to understand.

Having seen so many very well-bred (in the commercial sense) yearlings, with an athletic physical makeup fail to excel, it's fairly clear that what is at work is some fairly subtle differences in genotype.

It's one of the reasons that I like 'clustered inbreeding' duplicating horses in related groups. This often involves superior female producers.

It is very interesting to have some of those ideas confirmed by someone with a qualification in molecular genetics!

re: Silver Lining

Roger from Australia — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:55:44 GMT

Hi Alan/David Haydon

It is my view that the recessive deleterious genes have largely been bred out of the thoroughbred as a result of human selection. The concept of hybrid vigour has less impact on a breed that has had a limited genetic pool.

It appears to me that it is the inbreeding of dominant and supreme mares that provides for a genotype that code for the high quality racehorses.

My review of literature and analysis of pedigrees has led me to the view that the genes responsible for champion horses require the expression of the DNA contained within the great mares of the world such as Somethingroyal, Mumtaz Begum, Naltalma, Lassie Dear, Eight Carat, etc.

A Nick to me sometimes reflects the coming together of similar genetic profiles of the mares contained in pedigrees, even if one has to look furhter back in the pedigree.

Duplication of these genes allow for a homogenous genotype with expression ensured.

For those whom read this my conclusion is that the critical genes (such as DNA that codes for critical enzyme systems and large heart)are RECESSIVE rather than dominant.

A hope to practice this through my stallion Silent Shoto which is 2 by 3 to Raise the Standards from a Danehill mare. The duplications of Naltama are evident. I will breed to Halo (Almamoud)once he goes to stud in support of my view.

While he is only city placed time will tell.

Roger is an Environmental Lawyer with a Degree in Molecular Genetics.

re: Silver Lining

Alan Porter — Sat, 20 Feb 2010 01:22:30 GMT

Thanks Robert. With Secretariat, it really might have been worth taking a shot at something dramatic. I think he was such an outcross, that the "good stuff" was scattered widely through his genome. Add that with the difficulty of breeding him typewise.

You're quite right about Bishop's Idea - and not only was she 2 x 2 to Secretariat, but also 4 x 4 x 5 to his grandsire, Nasrullah, and 3 x 5 x 3 to his dam, Somethingroyal!

re: Silver Lining

ROBERT — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:10:28 GMT

I would like to have Roman Chestnut when she goes to the breeding shed. Inbred mares that show some talent (don't have to be graded), but some talent, I like these mares. You can use total outcrossed stallions and explore other sire lines. I have a mare whose dam is 1x4 to Tom Rolfe and the famile line of Northern Dancer. We bred her to an inbred stallion for 2010 and are considering outcrossing her (within 4 generations) for 2011. She is alot of fun when it comes to picking stallions. I agree with the owner of Roman Chestnut, in that he seems attentive to the type of foals the mare has and the type the stallion seems to throw. Inbreeding is risky, but many big time breeders do it much more than we know. There is a story about an idea that breeders were thinking about Secretariat being bred to his daughters since he did not stamp his foals with any regularity. I don't think it ever happended, but there is a mare named Bishops Idea that is 2x2 to Secretariat and she won graded stakes. Big Brown is a perfect example of inbreeding working as a breeder might hope for. Now we just have to hope his genetics produce runners like him. ***Alan....excellent article as usual***

re: Silver Lining

Alan Porter — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:31:39 GMT

Hi Sceptre,

I did mention that as an adviser, I would be somewhat cautious about advocating as close an inbreeding as this.

Obviously when you inbreed closely you run a greater risk of recessive negatives being expressed (talented as he was Silver Deputy comes with some issues).

It's a bit less risky with thoroughbreds than with human Royal families - where historically there are numerous bad examples from the Egyptians on - as with horses a lot of culling has taken place and genetically the thoroughbred is a pretty robust breed.

It is why I generally prefer inbreeding/linebreeding through genetic relatives at 4-5-6 generations, although some 3 x 3s are attractive.

Marcel Boussac had great success with very close inbreeding, but he was quite prepare to get rid of the bad ones.

It's also a little bit contextual. There are some things that I would risk for a breeder with 10 mares, that I would try for one with 80 in the hope of the breakout horse.

It is also something that can help a horse who is a physical outlier - an extreme example of the breed - and I recall the biomechanics people suggest Secretariat as a stallion might have been best helped by close inbreeding to replicate a horse with his somewhat unusual mechanics.

Thanks, though for the timely warning, and underlining that we are commenting on an interesting event, rather than recommending emulating it. Such close inbreeding certainly can have it's pitfalls, and is not to be undertaken lightly, or without due consideration of dangers.

re: Silver Lining

sceptre — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:19:19 GMT

David Hayden has been a successful breeder. That said, I don't agree with the logic he used when concluding that he "was unconcerned by the close inbreeding (3x2 Silver Deputy). Granted Not For Silver's pedigree contained some close-up similar in-bred/linebred "names" (not necessarily "genes"), but it's very unlikely that it's a reasonably similar comparative. 3x2 Silver Deputy seems to be relatively dangerous, notwithstanding the representatives professed similar (+) types. It might benefit others, Alan, for you to explain the potential pitfalls related to close inbreeding. Too much copy is given to inbreeding successes-perhaps because the pattern is so readily apparent. Many, perhaps, can be left with the notion that such adventures are often prudent, when quite the reverse is true. All else equal, better to error on the side of less potential harm (inbreeding can cause harm-just ask the Saudis).