NYRA: Eight is enough

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Omaha — Tue, 10 Jul 2012 01:23:01 GMT

Ann Nyra does run Maiden claimers on the turf just like every othr track however the only bred races on the turf are MSW 1X,2Xopt,stakes. how about NY trainers running i MSW at Delaware on Belmont day there was a Msw on the dirt without a Darley horse in it and a couple days before a Darley entry ran 1 2 at delaware I guess the Darley horses are not good enough to compete in NY.and Violette probably wants smaller fields so he has a chance to win one day he had a horse in at Belmont in a 2X scratches there runs two days later IN THE SAMR RACE At Monmouth and he is head of the Horsemans Assoc. Way to support NY

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

LAZMANICK — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 19:08:52 GMT

The Hollywood Gold Cup was another case of the track, though listed as fast, actually being slow. Game On Dude ran the 10F in 2.04.19 and received a hefty 107 Beyer, one of the better rated Beyers for a 10F race run that slow on a fast track that I can remember. His final mile was 1.40.01; final 6f in 1.16.38; final 4f in 52.26; and final quarter when under pressure in 26.53. Once again we get the true value of a Beyer number.

It will be interesting to see what Beyer Bob Baffert’s Gun Boat will get for his fine 6F effort in 1.09.92 (final quarter in 24.15) in the 4th race, which I think was exceptional given GOD’s slow time and the fact that the other 6F races were run in 1.12.38; 1.13.44; 1.12.20; and 1.13.03.

We have to be careful when assessing Mucho Macho Man’s 108 Beyer for his Suburban ran in 1.46.58. On Saturday there were only four dirt races carded and the first two races at a mile were run in fairly slow times (1.38.89 & 1.36.56). If the Suburban time was judged solely against those two races I believe that MMM would have received a substantially higher Beyer. But there was one other race, the Victory Ride, ran in 1.08.89 (94 Beyer) and this race probably made the Beyer people believe that the track really was playing fast, at least for the final two dirt races and therefore awarded what I believe was a lower Beyer number than what I expected, especially considering that Flat Out received a 113 Beyer for the same race last year ran in 1.46.66 and on a track where the dirt races were ran considerably closer to track record times than the first two races on Saturday.

Also, when we consider that Rachel Alexandra received a 111 Beyer for her Mother Goose run in 1.46.33 (the three year best time) on a track that was lightning fast I think that the Beyer people possibly erred and MMM should have received a Beyer maybe 4 to 6 points higher. Such is the human decision when applying what they consider what the value of variants are worth.

Based on the 107 and 108 Beyers, who ran the better race on Saturday, GOD or MMM? In terms of competition it was no contest as MMM ran in a race deep in quality talent. In terms of time, MMM also ran consistently close quarters throughout while GOD’s quarters tailed off badly for the final two quarters.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pete Denk — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:04:58 GMT

JayJay-

My problem with NYRA's move:

1) They were not up front about the reasons for this decision. Claiming it was for the welfare of the horse is complete b.s. Fields of 9+ do not hurt horses. Big fields are not responsible for the soundness problems in U.S. breeding.

2) More maiden races with (mandated) smaller fields waters down the gambling/entertainment product.

The common sense approach would be to split the maiden fields when they get a ton of entries. But outlawing fields of 9+ in sprints and 11+ in routes is dumb.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

LAZMANICK — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:45:15 GMT

Hey Ann:

Thanks for the history and I love your posts, I learn a lot from them. And of course you are right. It was the Widener Straight Course, the same course that Nashua broke his maiden in, in a 21 horse field. I'm always keenly interested in “way back when”. There seemed to be so much character back then.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pete Denk — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:21:34 GMT

Omaha-

NYRA runs claimers and maiden claimers on the turf ALL the time, short and long.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pedigree Ann — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:42:45 GMT

Yes, Laz, but the NYRA scuppered the straight chute when they put in turf courses at Belmont - the chasers had had to put up with crossing it, but flat runners couldn't, apparently. NY trainers didn't ship down to Delaware or Monmouth, either - it was a matter of pride for them and the owners to win the maiden in NY.

The NYRA has been just full of lousy decisions. In the mid 1970s, they decided not to run 10f races out of the chute anymore, because 'people wanted to see the horses better early on.' Starting on the turn may be less fair and safe for the runners but hey! gotta think of the fans, right? (PS Jumbotron makes it academic - start using that chute again!) Saratoga used to have an Ellis-style one-mile chute on the first turn; why was that trashed? More variety to races, and if you want to run 2yos long, they can get a better, less stressful run-up to the backstretch turn.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

LAZMANICK — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 03:40:45 GMT

Omaha, please be nice to Pete. He is doing a great job and knows his stuff. This might be a stretch but there are optional claimers for State Bred horses on the turf (1st race today).

Here's one for those complaining about the number of entrants in a New York maiden race. Belmont Park, May 31, 1957; 3rd race; an $8K maiden claimer at 5F for two-year old fillies; 34 fillies were entered (there was no also eligible list) and 28 actually ran. Personal Regard won the race in 58 4/5 coming from 6th place by a neck. She was 7-2 and was a field horse (the field had 15 horses coupled). The last place filly was Mid Killarney beaten by 24 lengths.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Omaha — Mon, 09 Jul 2012 00:25:30 GMT

Pete if you are going to be areporter do you'r homework NYRA does not run statebred maiden claimers or claiming races on the turf short or long.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

JayJay — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 23:59:34 GMT

Laz : Yeah I saw that too. Enjoyed watching her get all excited and happy about the win.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

LAZMANICK — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 18:21:23 GMT

Jay

I was more worried about her after the race when she turned to make a belated wave back to the crowd. For a second she wasn't too steady and it looked like she was going to fall off.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

JayJay — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 09:33:14 GMT

Very happy to see my future ex-wife win the HGC! Baffert did the right thing giving the mount back to her.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

LAZMANICK — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 01:45:25 GMT

-Keelerman

Quack?

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

-Keelerman — Sun, 08 Jul 2012 01:32:29 GMT

As horse racing fans, we are obviously familiar with the Equibase results charts, which tell us exactly what happened in a given race. And -- having viewed countless such charts over the years -- we have come to learn the terms and abbreviations used in the comments section on the far right of the running lines. We have come to expect phrases like "Inside, easily", "Lugged in str, readily", and "6w into lane, improved" when it comes to describing in brief the trip that any given horse receieved.

But tonight, I have come across quite possibly the most priceless and surprising comment of all time:

"Hit by goose 1/8"

From the footnotes of the chart:

"Higher Case . . . was struck by a flying goose just inside the furlong marker . . . finished willingly but just missed."

The link to the chart:

www.equibase.com/.../LS070712USA10.pdf

-Keelerman

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 21:47:35 GMT

Something that was mentioned NYRA wanting more in the Stakes races makes sense to me as an important reason they want smaller fields in the maiden races.Out of the winners of MSW there will be more stakes nominated 2yos more for the stakes races if Im not mistaken it cost more to nominate for a stake than a MSW.More$$$$$ what an original concept.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

JayJay — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 19:38:12 GMT

From a betting standpoint, 8 is not bad. I've seen quite a few races with 6 or less where the heavy favorite loses. Why ? Because people take the oddsmaker's word that that horse is the best so he puts him at 6-5 or less, then people just start betting that horse. There's a lot of heavy favorites that are sucker bets. In any size fields, it's all a matter of finding the true value horse. Like I've said before, betting is all guessing regardless of what you read on the form because horses do not know what their odds are, there'll be days where they'll be the best and not be the favorite. The forms, beyers, bris etc etc etc are all just tools, it doesn't give you the winner. It helps you "guess" who the winner will be. Unless Zenyatta, BC or Frankel is in the race :)

Pete : I'm a little confused about this discussion actually, is it because less horses for maiden races equals less betting ? Because like a couple here have posted, gamblers will bet any race regardless. I don't think there's an issue with running 8 in a maiden race. It's more than the minimum number of horses to have the superfecta. 2 or 4 more will not make much difference, in fact, it'll probably be make it harder to hit and be more expensive because you have to spread out your bets more. I've seen races at belmont where fields were down to 3 and the money pool is huge... and the longest shot wins lol. Or are you guys discussing the horses well being ? Or just venting on the stupidity (and corruptness) of the people running NYRA ? I'm from the west coast, we're no better here but I guess that's horseracing. There's really not much we can do about it.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

CHIEF PICAWINNA — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 18:23:41 GMT

We are in the information age if a colt such as Nashua was running in a maiden race I know in 2012 there would be a lot less than 20 taking him on,unless they want to get beat.Eventhough there is and will always be backstretch chatter EVERYONE is tuned in nowadays a talent such as Nashua would be known about before getting in the gate,his odds would reflect this.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

JoyJackson21 — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 15:37:04 GMT

If the intent by the NYRA is supposedly to make it easier for owners to enter and evaluate their 2 year olds in maiden races, why not add another race or two to the card at least several days a week? That would accommodate more horses in total and is a better solution than to shorten the current fields. Field sizes seem to be fine at the 10-12 level for most races. Why not keep them there and make the wagering more inviting for the bettor?

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pete Denk — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 15:22:18 GMT

Minnesot Kid-

Looks like Trinniberg's folks took the easy money.

I too would have leaned toward the age restricted races. He can run against older for big money in the fall.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

JoyJackson21 — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 15:19:14 GMT

Another not very wise decision by the NYRA. The NYRA frequently acts as if they don't get it at all.

I, as a bettor, prefer a larger field because the payouts are much better. Pure and simple. I want bang for my buck on the betting side, as well as the entertainment side. I'm more likely not to bet in a race that has less than 10 horses in it. That's the truth, and I'm not alone in that sentiment, either.

From an entertainment standpoint, smaller fields are not as exciting to watch, unless there is a built-in rivalry in the race to spark the public's imagination - such as Affirmed vs. Alydar, Alysheba vs. Bet Twice, Real Quiet vs. Victory Gallop, and more recently, I'll Have Another vs. Bodemeister. That is the only time I want to see less than 10 horses in the a race.

Churchill Downs seems to have figured this issue out awhile ago. One of the reasons the Kentucky Derby is a huge draw with both television audiences and attendees, along with the being most coveted of races with the owners & trainers is because there is a 20 horses field in this race. Most of the horses in the race are usually of equal or close to equal level in talent. It is not a given that the odds-on favorite will more than likely win the race as it is in other races because there are many mitigating circumstances built into this race. The race is then more entertaining, and the chance of a pretty good payout is excellent each year. The race thus becomes much more exciting to watch, and the viewer & bettor always has the feeling that given the right breaks, their horse(s) has as good of a chance of winning, or populating an exotic wager they have placed, as the next horse. Churchill heard the cha-ching of ever-increasing amounts of money filling their tills when they allowed the Derby to be a 20 horse field. Makes me wonder why NYRA hasn't yet learned this lesson as well. Instead, they are making up not very plausible and very transparent reasons why they should lessen the field size of their races.

NYRA is trying to pull another fast one in this matter. They're not doing a very good job of it, either.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pete Denk — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 15:16:22 GMT

Mike-

Yes, there is a horse shortage, and the breed is experiencing soundness problems.

Your assertion is that field size in 2yo races is the problem???

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Minnesota Kid — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 01:16:57 GMT

MJA,

I agree that some long-term thinking is needed. One partial solution to dealing w/ the shrinking foal crops would seem to be some racetrack contraction.

Sure, no racing fans want to see their home-area track be one of the plants to close, but I think most people that follow horse racing realize that there are simply too many tracks, too many scheduled races.

Pete Denk,

I see my main man Trinniberg is entered in both races in Miami tomorrow, as many of us expected he would be.

If you owned 51% of him, would you rather be 6-5 ML (3-5 post-time?) for 90k or 3-1 ML (2-1 post-time?) for 240k?

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Michael J Arndt — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 01:01:39 GMT

Pete, the bottom line is this, I worked the windows for 25 years, taking bets. 8 horses in a race is about 6 too many for alot of players to have a 50/50 shot of picking a winner in a race full of first time starters. They are doing all but the sharp players a favor in the short term, and doing all players a favor in the long term by hopefully getting the maximum number of Saratoga 2 year olds, the best in the country, on to their fall campaigns with a race or two under their belt and 100% healthy. When you see fields like the Hollywood Gold Cup, and other top races drawing small fields is that so many of the talented horses never make it to age 4. Time to get realistic about the fact there is not an endless supply of horses anymore, the crop is down 50%, and we need to think long-term. There are plenty of other races to bet for those who think 8 horse fields are not big enough.

Minnesota Kid - B.F. Downs is out in East Bumphukk.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Minnesota Kid — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:47:03 GMT

Michael J Arndt,

That was honestly insulting and kind of funny--I like that.

Just one question--Where is B.F. Downs?

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pete Denk — Sat, 07 Jul 2012 00:29:57 GMT

Michael J. Arndt, good to see you here.

Injuries are unfortunate, but I don't see how outlawing fields of 9 or more in sprint races and 11 or more in routes is the appropriate solution.

And if by inmates you mean bettors, yes I think they deserve to have some say. NYRA ignored them with this move. More maiden races with smaller fields is the last thing bettors want, at Saratoga or any track.

re: NYRA: Eight is enough

Pedigree Ann — Fri, 06 Jul 2012 19:31:06 GMT

I'll tell you what I object to and that is two-turn races of any kind for 2yos before October. Especially on the 7f inner turf courses at a lot of mile tracks. Those 2yo leg joints do not need the stress of two tight turns, one of them when at near full speed, just out of the gate. Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed did not run in 2-turn races before mid-October if at all; too many one-turn races (Remsen, Breeders' Futurity, Ky JC S) have become 2-turn races for no good reason.