The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

juststacey — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:00:00 GMT

This is such a load of fluffy, crystal clutching crap. KY VET, you got it right. Horses are motivated by two things: food and fear. PERIOD. They are simply not capable of complex, analytical though.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Pete Denk — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:26:11 GMT

Hi Monica, thanks for reading and commenting.

Yes, Zenyatta showed her amazing emotional conformation and herd dynamic from race 1.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

monica — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:18:01 GMT

Oh, never mind. I do see that more than half way thru the article it's mentioned that Z's "debut race" was looked at. I thought that would have been made clear earlier, but my fault for posting before finishing the entire article.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

monica — Sat, 26 Jan 2013 17:06:53 GMT

This is quite interesting and I have not yet finished the entire article but the first question that comes to mind is: When doing this very detailed comaparison, was the analyst using Zenyatta's FIRST TWO races only, or at her racing style in general. We all know that Z was a late-maturing filly and that was the reason she did not race as a 3 yr old. Rather than look at the amazing mare Z matured into, I think it would be a more fair comparison to compare Ebby to the Z that she was at the very onset of her racing.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mike Relva — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:35:05 GMT

Mary

A decision hasn't been made regarding Frazier, my feeling is he will be there for awhile.

That's good you're going to send a donation, they can use it.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 06:48:09 GMT

Mike, I found out, by chance a few months ago, looking up something about Currency Swap, that the winner of the Bourbon in which Here Comes Frazier was injured, Animal Spirits, died in his sleep, so to speak. Remarkable that the badly injured horse could have surgery and he has been recovering at the rescue. Maybe one day he'll have another home, meanwhile, he's at a great place.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mike Relva — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 04:06:51 GMT

Mary Z

Frazier is well,but limited regarding what he's able to do as result of the injury.

This time around, was twenty lbs lighter.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

El Kabong — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:30:39 GMT

Rusty,

For what it's worth, I think the KJC horses are very talented. I am happy to see two in this race and hope the others will spread out and give me a gauge. I much prefer them to the others and expect them to run well. Have to respect Shanghai and Itsmyluckyday, but I'll probably box the 4 of them in a tri for sure, maybe a super. 1,2 6,7.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:11:06 GMT

Yah, read it, sceptre, this anyway, at Thoroughbred Daily News since you failed to post a link. (In response to your once again, ad hominem, at the new blog.

www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/.../tdn130124_1.pdf

You don't address the percentage of U.S. horses on this diuretic, nor the fact that when horses are seen to bleed from the nostrils, not just the minute amount detected in a scope that they likely bled THROUGH Salix use. You don't discuss the leaching of calcium from the bones to return the blood calcium levels to normal. If you want to cite a source, post the link. Thanks.

You are a bit heavy with the personal comments, but that's expected when one attempts to take a pacifier from someone else's baby's mouth. And I wasn't the one who said that this drug masks others. It's a strong diuretic. That is its intended purpose.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Footlick — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:18:43 GMT

Are European horses less healthy? They use our bloodlines, but somehow have no need for race day meds. And I am supposed to believe that it is necessary for the health of the horse? European horses seem pretty healthy to me. When a Euro wins a race here on Lasix, Euros are very skeptical of the form unless that form can be reproduced there. Otherwise, rightly or wrongly, there will always be a stigma associated with Lasix.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 22:50:12 GMT

sceptre,if you noticed KY, just grouped me with some mob I don't know. Also, sceptre might have no idea if that well-published veterinarian who authored that article sceptre mentioned adminsters Salix to race horses and charges for their after-care, having a vested interest in giving its use a positive angle. Also, the S.African study, which was never duplicated was mentioned. What proof was in that article, sceptre? What was I supposed to gain from that? Since you, yourself, KY, said that it was not that big of a deal, can you live without it(figure of speech, not meaning actually be able to breathe)if Salix were to be banned from use in stakes horses? Love the taking the opposing view to get me to think. Amusante.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

KY VET — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 22:18:40 GMT

Finally! Sceptre steps up with the truth!.........so much misinfo out there......someone just posted it "masks" illegal drugs! They read, or here this stuff, and spread untrue things...of course, ya gotta know how to read..........maybe coldcuts can get it on audio..........

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Footlick — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:53:32 GMT

The world gets by without Lasix.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Ranagulzion — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:39:31 GMT

From the #1 hole and going the mile and sixteenth at Gulfstream, Shanghai Bobby should take home the bacon here. Itsmyluckyday and a couple others (Bern Identity, Dewey Square and Frac Daddy) in the race should test his mettle. If "Bobby" fails to win here it could be the end of the Triple Crown road for him IMO ...but I think that he's equal to this task.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:24:51 GMT

sceptre, Thanks for the grouping generalization, whoever the heck you are. We're strangers to each other, so I don't know what group you're in.

Anyway, I had sent a longer comment this a.m. about the Salix subject and the nsaids. I'll check out that article you mentioned at the now defunct Thoroughbred Times. You do consider if someone, real scientists included, have a vested interest in keeping the diuretic, Salix, in use? Of course you understand that the drug is not a cure nor a prevention for EIPH. You are satisfied with not considering any long term effects these drugs may have? Happy with the increased recovery time between races due to the fluid loss, since the diuretic does its work in that area, and you are okay with the calcium loss from bones to replenish the blood calcium levels? My earlier comment ,which was not posted, to KY concerned the use of Salix which acts upon the kidneys alongside of administering phenylbutazone which can have side effects of causing ulcers and kidney damage. Also, with most of a card being made up of claiming and allowance races, why not start with disallowing Salix for stakes races? This would affect a small percentage of overall racing, but it would affect the races that get the most new fan/tv attention. Understanding that the perception by those against Salix use and those who don't feel as though it is a problem(and then there are those that are pro-Salix, stating that it is actually cruel to run a horse without the diuretic) is that Salix gives an edge because of the weight loss through fluid loss, pre-race. The comments that since it is a first-time Salix user horse will improve, usually with no other reason given for that improvement. So, a perception that U.S. horses must be medicated to win, and not for health reasons. sceptre, it would take some persuasion, and yes, scientific evidence, and long-term effects studies to change my mind about the administering of a strong diuretic to approximately 90% of U.S. racing Thoroughbreds. Tell me why I should think that's okay.

Uniform rules, nationwide, for drug usage and consequences for infractions are of course long overdue. Possibly that was the part of the comment that did not pass the moderator earlier.

To Mike, I saw your comment about visiting the Tucson rescue. How is Here Comes Frazier(if he's still there)? Very, very good cause; will send another donation. Maybe you would weigh in on the Salix/nsaids issues as these concern the horses' well-being.

Copied, sent elsewhere also.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:40:43 GMT

Re-sending my longer post of this morning.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Rusty Weisner — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:36:57 GMT

I like Itsmyluckday, too. That was an extremely fast second quarter.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Pete Denk — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:22:29 GMT

Blog on Holy Bull S. coming up...

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Rusty Weisner — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:05:12 GMT

I haven't appropriated my 2013 betting money yet, so to speak, but I've got a few bucks left over in a wagering account and am going to play an exacta in the Holy Bull.

Anyone have an opinion on the Kentucky JCS? I am tempted to bet against the horses in this race in favor of Bern Identity. I am not eager to bet against Shanghai Bobby. Pletcher won this race last year and he always has his horses ready to fire big...until the Derby.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Plod Boy Phil — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:42:21 GMT

Forbidden Apple -

'Buy' whatever you wish. I was merely providing a more complete analysis of the race clearly dominated by the best horse at the distance the event was run. It had nothing to do with which would get on the Derby Trail or which would accomplish more. Unlike most people here, I have no interest in the Kentucky Derby until the first Thursday in May.

For some perspective on Monday's main track, it was the most Closer Biased SA dirt track that we've seen since February 19. 2012. Between then and Monday, only four cards there have come up even remotely close to the figure we attached to the two 'extreme' days.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

sceptre — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:41:11 GMT

Mary Zinke-and the rest of the anti-Lasix mob:

Why not read today's Thoroughbred Daily News (TDN) article on the recent symposium on EIPH and Lasix/Salix, and other matters. See what REAL scientists have to say on the subject. I think it will change your opinion.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:19:59 GMT

Bobby, Lucky, Dewey, Daddy. Joshua's Comprise is by a gelding. It happens.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Mary Zinke — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:02:30 GMT

It won't be a problem for me when Salix use is not permitted, and why not first start with the stakes races? Aren't claiming and lower-level allowances a majority of a card, or no? So, say your bread and butter isn't touched, KY, and the claimers can get their Salix? Any problem, for you with stakes horses not allowed that drug? You understand that there is the perception that horses are running and winning because of the Salix edge. How many times do I see comments about a horse being first time Lasix, so it should improve--no other reason given for that improvement?

About the phenylbutazone,its use combined with the use of Salix should be studied by those it affects, meaning for instance Thoroughbred owners. Can phenylbutazone cause ulcers and kidney damage? It is administered alongside a drug that is already working upon the kidneys. You may be very hands-on and observant of the dosages and frequency of the use of these medications on your horses, KY. Any thought as to the long-term effects of these drugs, even after the horse leaves the track? You're okay with the several days it takes for a horse to "recover" from the calcium loss? You are aware that even when the blood calcium level has returned to normal(post Salix use), that the bone calcium level may not have. Like I said, their banning or regulation won't immediately be any problem for me, but for you, in the business?

Mike, I saw the comment about your visit to the Tucson rescue. Very, very good cause. I will send another donation this coming month. How was Here Comes Frazier(if he's still there)? Anyway, Mike, you should weigh in on the Salix/bute/nsaids issues as this subject pertains the the well-being of the race horses.

P.S., KY and all, the necessary national standardization of rules for drugs allowed, levels allowed and consequences for infractions of these rules is long overdue. I'll write to the commissioner of racing after the good ole boys are gone.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Coldfacts — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:00:28 GMT

Forbidden Apple,

I think the focus should be on Major Affair instead of Hear the Ghost. He closed from 20L last to be only beaten a couple of lengths. He ran a similar race against Demonic a highly thought of Bernarndi colt. He is probably one of the most talented Officer colt I have seen. His dam sire Black Tie Affair is rarely seen in pedigrees. You are aware of my love for Miswaki as broodmare sire so this love extends to his son.

Both his sire and dam sire had tactical speed but he seems to be silky Sullivan type. Interesting colt who is begging for a distance of ground and is one to watch.

Holy Bull

It is unlikely that Frac Daddy will finish ahead of Dewey Square. Revisit the Kentucky Jockey Club Stakes. Itsmyluckyday was badly beaten by Bern Identity in the Delta Jackpot. What makse you think he is likely to reverse positions? I would not discount the chances of Tulira Castle and Fredericksburg. At $575K Dewey Square did not meet his reserve and was not subsequently sold privately. He must be deemed special.

re: The herd dynamics and emotional conformation of Eblouissante

Forbidden Apple — Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:30:05 GMT

Moving forward I think Hear the Ghost will keep on improving and possibly be on the SA Derby trail. Distinctiv Passion does have blazing speed, but how many times can he run 43 and change for the half and win? In my mind hear the Ghost was up against lone speed and he's not a sprinter. I had zero dollars bet on him in a short field, I like him next out even more.

Itsmyluckyday is ready to run hard and win now, the Holy Bull is not a prep race for him. Shanghai Bobby and Frac Daddy will be sent out for conditioning, I don't see them being cranked up to high gear in January.