A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

Pedigree Ann — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:07:48 GMT

Predict - The runners in the $5K starter race at Churchill on Saturday included a son of Dynaformer, a runner out of a Dynaformer mare inbred to Hail to Reason, and a Bernardini out of a G1 winner.

Pedigree provides possibilities, not guarantees. A beautiful pedigree has to be viewed in respect to the form of the possessor. Nodouble was an Arky-bred by a unfamiliar Australian sire out of a distinctly plebeian female family. He defeated many a 'beautifully bred' horse in his stellar career. Kona Gold, Dehere, and Henny Hughes might have had beautiful pedigrees for a stayer, but they didn't stay. Genetic lottery; have to take what you get, make the best of it.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

predict — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:24:17 GMT

I definitely believe breeding to be extremely important and at the same time almost impossible to predict. That said take a look at Chitu's dam side. Reads like a who's who of racing:

Dam sire: AP Indy

Grand Dam sire: Seattle Slew, of course from AP

Grand Dam Dam sire: Zilzal, champion 3 year old colt-England)

The Great Great Dam sires and Dam Dam's:

Bold Reasoning: sire of Seattle Slew

Secretariat: name is enough said

Nureyev: Champion 3 year old-France;leading sire France 1987,leading broodmare sire Britain/Ireland 1997; sire of Theatrical and Miesque

The dam blood line traces to Tessebe which brings direct lineage to Buckpasser and Princequillo.

I think Chitu could possibly become a horse that will be remembered for sometime. And remember his dam raced once and won at 10 furlongs.

Sorry if my terminolgy is awkward at best when discussing pedigree, as I am not very knowledgeable on the subject. But, I think Chitu's pedigree is very impressive.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

The Barn Cat — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:54:37 GMT

General comment about any pedigree review that includes horses from the days before parentage verification was standard: what was recorded by the registration office of The Jockey Club wasn't necessarily what had happened in the breeding shed. There were legitimate mistakes made, and there was also outright fraud.

It wasn't unheard of, if more than one mare was in heat at the same time, for the stud groom to substitute a different stallion to breed to one of the mares, since the groom received a fee for each mare that got in foal. Similarly, if a stallion was experiencing transient fertility problems due to injury or illness, the groom might substitute another stallion if he could get away with that.

If you look at the produce records of stallions from a century or more ago, you see some funny things sometimes. While the vast majority of early pedigrees are probably accurate, especially where notable horses were involved, there are undoubtedly horses that raced and were bred with a pedigree that didn't belong to them. Just something to keep in mind when you're looking at older pedigrees.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

GiddyUpBoyWhoa — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:47:23 GMT

Doug, are you going to finish the 3 part story you started on the pedigree of the Derby horses here on bloodhorse? I've checked back several times, and only 2 parts are completed.

I'm by no means a pedigree expert, I know very little on the subject. What I did do was look at the Derby contenders sires/dams, without going back to grandma and great, great grandpa, and see which ones have won some major races at classic distances. And without a doubt some standouts are Gen. A Rod, just look at the tough races won by Fusauchi Pegasus, and Roman Ruler, and top it off with Dynaformer.

Intense Holiday, Harlans Holiday has done quite well at some classic tough races and then add in Unbridled's Song to top him off.

Wicked Strong, Hard Spun was very tough in classic races, and the icing on the cake is Charismatic a Derby winner also. Ride on Curlin, well Curlin needs no introduction, 2 times horse of the year3'rd in Derby, won Preakness, jockey gold cup, twice, the BC classic, the Dubai World cup, on and on and on.

Maybe could add in a little Medal Count, Dynaformer, but more turf races, leading turf sire in 2002, 2003, 2005, 2009, and top it off with Unbridled's Song.

Can you find any other horse who sire has won more prestigious classic races than the one's listed above that is running in the Ky. Derby? This is how I do pedigree research, maybe not an exact science, and you might take with a gran of salt, but its hard to dispute what these horses sires have done.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

Kalar — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 16:08:03 GMT

I agree with Terry M. and others. CC has an outstanding pedigree on both sides beginning at grands. I consider him a 'throwback.' Consider that even people can have children who may look like and act like grandparents or even great-grandparents and nothing like their parents. Hence, a frequent question of "Where did he get that from?" :) He's an anomaly that I think only occurred due to the particular pairing of Lucky Pulpit and Love the Chase. I hope DAP doesn't sell either one of them. They struck gold the first time out of the chute. :)

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

Pedigree Ann — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:09:59 GMT

The most interesting thing about California Chrome's pedigree is the inbreeding in his dam - she has the 3/4 siblings Dance Number and Polish Numbers 2x2 in her pedigree, both being out of the Buckpasser mare Numbered Account, a champion of serious class. Closely inbred horses are a gamble, but some who fail to race well end up as excellent breeding animals, viz. Ultimus. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that CC's third dam, a SW past a mile by Sir Ivor out of a Vaguely Noble mare, whose dam was by Ribot, has added her mite to the mix.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

LanceS — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:56:59 GMT

One comment on Funny Cide - you fail to mention that Belle's Good Cide is a daughter of Slewacide who was bred on the same lines as Slew o' Gold, and who sired Clever Trevor, Slew of Damascus, and Mr. Ross, so maybe a bit more quality there than one might think at first glance.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

LanceS — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:54:53 GMT

Some more on California Chrome - his sire Lucky Soph is a 1/2 sister to the dam of Unbridled's Song and his 2nd dam Lucky Spell is a 1/2 sister to Seattle Song. You listed Essence of Dubai as a miler, but he won the UAE Derby at 10 furlongs and won the Super Derby and placed in the Pennsylvania Derby and Jim Dandy, all at 9 furlongs. Note that just yesterday Pulpit's son Unitarian won a Grade 2 at 12 furlongs on the turf.

Another interesting aspect about Chrome's pedigree is that his dam is a daughter of Not for Love, who is a full brother to Get Lucky. Get Lucky, of course, produced Accelerator, Daydreaming, Girolamo, and the dams of Super Saver and Bluegrass Cat to the cover of A.P. Indy, so Chrome has that same cross, if somewhat removed.

The point is that while pedigree can be indicative, it's not definitive. Lucky Pulpit has already sired Rousing Sermon, who has run competitively in multiple graded stakes at 9 furlongs. Given the small number of foals LP has sired and the general quality of his mares, who know what his true proclivity will prove to be.

After all, who would have thought breeding Java Gold to a Slew o' Gold mare would produce a champion sprinter?!

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

Terry M. — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 03:55:45 GMT

"California Chrome, is sired by obscure stallion Lucky Pulpit. His dam Love The Chase was a very mediocre racer whose only career win came in an $8,000 maiden claiming race. His 2nd dam Chase It Down won her only career race at Charles Town" True, but how about the rest of the pedigree?

His sire is a stakes-winning sprinter and miler by the A.P. Indy son Pulpit, who sired millionaire milers Corinthian, Essence of Dubai, Pit Fighter, Pyro and Rutherienne. Lucky Pulpit's dam, Lucky Soph, is by champion Cozzene and out of Lucky Spell, both milers. So this side of the pedigree is clearly aimed in that direction.

California Chrome's dam, Love the Chase, is a granddaughter of Mr. Prospector, a prominent source of stamina in pedigrees. He also appears in California Chrome's sire's pedigree. She is inbred to the great champions Northern Dancer and Numbered Account, both of whom won at 10 furlongs and known for their speed.

Overall, there is a lot of speed and some stamina back there, and not too far back either. I don't know if CC can win going beyond 8 or 9 furlongs, but I think he has as good a shot as anyone, especially since many recent Derby winners also come from families who produce a lot of speed at the mile.

re: A Look At Winning Derby Pedigree With Brisnet.com & Doug Salvatore

spectacular bid — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:06:06 GMT

love this column, i find it funny that people discount pedigree and yet in this day n age when everyone breeds for speed, the derby is the ONE RACE a year where i toss horses based on pedigree insted of form. theres to many horses that simply cant get a 1 1/4 mile race anymore. id like to see you do a column on who in this years race IS bred to get 10f..for me, i think MEDAL COUNT is an improving horse, hes fit and will run right past the bulk of this years horses and give dynaformer derby win #2 when they all stop running there miler pedigrees