Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Wanda — Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:10:10 GMT

Blender in answer to your question. The first one I raised sold as a broodmare for paint horses,the second one lives in retirement at my inlaws. They built a barn just for him and found him a buddy for company.My sister-inlaw goes out every morning and feeds him carrots before she drives to town to go to work. Thanks for asking.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Wanda — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:52:56 GMT

Sorry guys I'm not going to debate this after today. I'ts my opinion and I don't believe people should breed the odd racehorse if they are not commited to spending money and doing it the best they can do. Breed to produce a racehorse not some ill-bred,crooked legged,no heart mare that doesn't make a dime then turn around and breed her to a cheap stud with no pedigree or race record. That's what I object to. All those foals that don't get a good home,what happens to them? I've seen people who love everything they raise but they don't worm them get their teeth done or trim them.If you are going to raise these kind then be prepared to look after them properly and not sell them for 500 bucks to someone who can't afford to keep them. That's what bothers me,everyone has good intentions but the bottem line is there's to many unwanted racehorses out there and they all don't get saved.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Blender — Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:42:48 GMT

Wanda, Did you break even or make money breeding "a cheap cheap mare to a cheap cheap stallion,which I did twice.I got lucky and the second one made 100,000 bucks lifetime."

Why condemn others from enjoying horses like you did? Do you still own the horses you bred?

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Wanda — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:33:13 GMT

What is a cheap mare/stallion? By nothin out of nothin.Produced nothin or sired nothin.And I'm pretty sure if your a backyard breeder you ain't paying 35G's for a yearling at F-T Kentucky.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

KAB — Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:08:56 GMT

I waited and then listened to all three parts of the video in one session. I then listened again. It reminded me of the children's game, "Hot Potato", where no one wants to get caught holding the object when the music stops.

All had reasons & solutions for/to the problem of thoroughbred stamina and soundness. It appears that no one found problems within their own realms of the business, and the solutions for any problems also resided within other then their own areas of the business.

This is not to say that any of the problems mentioned were not real, or that any of the solutions suggested were not good. This is to say we all must see and admit to the problems upfront in our own areas of the business.

The problems are multifaceted, but we each must address the problems we have helped create. When we have solved our individual contributions to the problem, then we can address or put pressure on the other areas that continue to bring about problems.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

ArchDandy — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:59:08 GMT

If in other countries they have more turf races and longer races...then the only reason to breed for this here is to make those races exist here. I have seen hundreds of what might have been good turf routers end up in claiming dirt sprints because they cannot win....and have no races to be run in to succeed

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

UCLinden — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:06:55 GMT

I'd like to say, it's nice to see various comments from everyone. Yes, you do care.

There's something though that is on my mind. I'm sure most of you know of the various entertainment venues that exist ...... whether it is professional sports , the men's and woman's golf associations , and yes , even the WWE ( wrestling ). All of these are able to draw substantial attendance.

What do you feel are the factors why horse racing does not draw large crowds, with the exception of The Triple Crown, Breeder's Cup, etc ?? What do you feel horse racing should do , look into , in order to have people come to the track ?? What are we lacking ?? Does horse racing need a better marketing program ??

On any race day , what happens ? The horse's are brought to the paddock , saddled , parade around the walking ring and head to the starting gate. The race is completed, the winning horse comes to the winner's circle, the winner's photo is taken , horse heads to barn. What if we change that and give the public an opportunity to take photos of winning horse ( Grade 1 races only ). After winner's circle picture is taken, the horse is then taken back on track, where the public can take their own photo's. People take picture's of their favorite ballplayer, why not a race horse ? Give the fan's something to connect to ..... something at no cost ... show our appreciation to them.

It's just an idea ....... what's yours ???

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Neon Green — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:27:35 GMT

outcross23 nobody with business sense would enter a horse in the FTK sale if there was no market for it! And what is wrong with dropping a stake horse to get a check? Haven't you heard the adage "Put your horse in easy company?"

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Neon green — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:05:34 GMT

Wanda, What is a cheap horse? Is it a yearling filly that somebody paid 35 thousand for that ultimately could not win 3 thousand and got sold for $750 before she turned five. Is this cheap? Did the person who bought her as a yearling think she was cheap? Did the person who paid $750 think she was cheap? What would Wanda do with her?

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Garrett Redmond — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:31:39 GMT

Many interesting points of view, but it seems clear most do not have any practical, hands-on experience or money invested directly in the different sectors of the business.

Look at comment from WWSTP. In short,it says:" Breeders breed for MONEY ... that kind of GREED needs to stop." Tell us, WWSTP, do you work for MONEY ? Therefore, by your own definition, are you GREEDY? If anybody wants to earn a living, it must be for money. If WWSTP lives on inherited wealth, then working for money may seem greedy!

Why the rush to blame veterinarians for the 'crisis'? A vet cannot medicate a horse except at the request of the owner or owner's agent. So, if an owner is upset by bills, it is his/her own fault. It is amazing what owners will cheerfully pay and what they will complain about. Example:

Horse is a bit "off", so trainer asks vet to look it over. Vet examines horse and recommends two weeks off training - just stall rest. The vet sends a bill for $50 for his time and expertise. The owner complains about a bill for "just looking". Consequently, many track vets do not charge for such exams. More likely, most owners/trainers want to run a horse, so rest is not welcome. If pressed, vet may say, "You could give him XXX twice a day for three days and keep him going, especially as the owner expects him to run next week." Trainer says "OK", and the owner gets a bill for $100. Tell me, who made the decision, better $100 for medication than $50 for just looking?

A real problem is too many "trainers" are sure they know more than any vet. So they want to prescribe.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Wanda — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:54:43 GMT

I see lots of comments that make perfect sense on this blog. It all boils down to the same thing no race day meds.It's time to stop this practice and make a level playing field. Maybe then we will see a return to the days when mares are bred to produce a racehorse, not a sales horse. One comment about the "little guy" breeder. Nobody has any business breeding a backyard racehorse and that includes me. By that I mean a cheap cheap mare to a cheap cheap stallion,which I did twice.I got lucky and the second one made 100,000 bucks lifetime.There's to many stallions standing at stud and to many cheap mares producing useless racehorses.I'm going to catch hell for saying that but I still stand by what I say.So where do all these animals go to when they don't pay their way? I get to read about it in the paper,horses left to starve etc.That bothers me the most.All those people that "love horses" and their animals haven't been wormed in two years or had their feet trimmed in a year that makes me sick. Sorry for being somewhat rude but it's how I see it.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

pamale — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:49:22 GMT

many excellent comments on this board. what it tells me is that finally this industry is recognizing that it has huge problems and those problems need urgent attention.

i agree with uc linden on the need for a central, guiding regulatory authority a la the nfl, nascar etc. the current state of the industry cries out for one strong hand, not 38 weak hands as we have now, with 38 different drug regimes and the penalties handed down for infractions so wildly inconsistent (mostly they amount to nothing as trainers continue to train through suspensions via proxies etc.) that they are ineffective. the current splintered structure - with stakeholders at war with each other - is a recipe for extinction. an empowered central racing authority enacted by congress with full co-operation of the 38 racing states, would be better placed to address problems which to me seem overwhelming and insoluble at this time.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

outcross23 — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:26:56 GMT

Dear Folks,

Thank you for input on this very pivotal matter regarding the future of our beloved sport. I have been in the industry for ten years, and have noticed that the dynamic of claiming races have changed dramatically since racinos have made it profitable for "cheap horses" to earn livings for less than expert trainers. It is not uncommon at Charles Town to see a horse that ran in a state bred stakes, run for 4000 next out. It is more important to train to the condition book than to allow the horse to let us know when their ready to run. Too many racing days and an abundance of cheap horses have made a reward out of mediocrity.

My next point is this. What qualifications are needed to become a sire. It seems the Thoroughbred industry has 2 qualifications. A farm, and a set of testes, thats it. How can we create guidelines for the stallion book, without seeming snobbish for exclusions. If we look at other breeding industries, most have inclusion criteria as decided by industry leaders. Our industry it seems as the leaders are the ones pushing brillance down our throats. I challenge anyone to find more than 10 horses from the FST yearling sale that just finished that are free from Northern Dancer and Raise A Native.

My endnote,regarding the data in the iron horse study, did anyone notice the diversity of sire lines in the 60-70 and 70 and 80, then look at the 90s and 00, the commercial market came in and drastically changed the apparatus for owners to obtain horses. Gone are the days of Tartan, and Calumet. Here are the days of free agency and decline of horsemanship.

Thank You

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Racefan66 — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 03:39:12 GMT

Was there ever truely a day when horses ran on hay, oats, and water or are we just kidding ourselves by painting the old times with that brush? They just proved that the great Phar Lap died of an arsenic overdose... likely from the arsenic tonics that were commonly administered. Perhaps the tonics and "medical procedures" (pin-firing, etc) from older times don't compare in their damage to the breed as we attribute to the supplements, drugs, and surgeries currently in use, but I'd be interested in a study to evaluate what types of things have been used to improve performance over the course of racing history.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Mary Kohn — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:14:14 GMT

The industry data has to be more accurate and reliable. The Equibase chartcallers need to be trained so all the charts match what all the racereplays show. They need to be able to report if a start was good for all and not overlook all the bumping. Take the time to put it in the chart notes.

In the Equine Line reports the mare progeny has to be accurate as to number of foals by a certain stallion. The consumers of the data need to be able to call in corrections. Right now you can't call in corrections if you notice an error, the Equibase data is deemed to be provided "as is." Data and statistics are only as good as those who collect it. If the Industry owns the data, lets make sure it remains accurate.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Tappiano — Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:13:06 GMT

The biggest problem with a survey of this kind is that it does not take into account how many starts a horse COULD make if he had not been whisked off to stud. Years ago, when books were limited to 40 mares there wasn't the same incentive, so horses made more starts. How many arc, french derby, english derby winners ever set foot on a track at age 4? Starting in the early 80's with the Northern Dancer boom, these horses averaged 5 starts. Could they have run more, yes. Would it have impacted the stats, yes. There was a story years ago on TV about the owner of Secretariat's last daughter and he said he was not even going to bother to put her in training because she was too valuable. How many others felt the same way? Enough to impact the number of starts his offspring made?

The very people contributing to the current issues are all contributing, directly or indirectly to the decline in starters. It is the breeders who choose to send their horses to the studs that will then produce a horse that will make the most money in the sales. The breeding farms contribute by fighting over breeding rights before the horse has finished his career. If there was a turning point in this country, it was Conquistador Cielo, who never ran after the Travers. He'd already been syndicated, his owners made money and the breeders lined up to send mares to him.

Right now, the trend is two starts before the derby simply because the owners now the money is just around the corner.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

owner trainer — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:28:34 GMT

The eye should be on the vets. If you ask them for two radiographs and they take eight who pays the difference? They have to be held accountable as well. There is no reason for them not to provide an estimate for their work and stick to the work that is requested. If they can't THATS A PROBLEM

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

UCLinden — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:13:29 GMT

During the recent congressional hearings, there was discussion about horse racing needing ONE central unbiased head organization. During the hearings it was said that horse racing has had many a year to get itself together, and hasn't. Each track does its own thing , based on what it thinks is best.

In this column, various points have been brought up. Also, presently there is a video / commentary called " Losing The Iron Horse ". The iron horse video is a group of people whose interest's lie at the top sector of horse racing. What about hearing from the normal everyday small person, the one's who can't afford to breed to the better quality stallions.

Perhaps, just perhaps, that is part of horse racing's problem ....... those owners / breeder's who can't afford the top flight stallions. Perhaps not only might it help the quality of horse's , but also more competitive horse's , giving the racing public a reason to come to the track, to see a " homegrown " product.

But, I think it is time for horse racing , if it wants to survive , is to have one unbiased central

head / commission such as the MLB, NHL, NBA , NFL,etc. It is time for us to live in the present and pave a way to the future , as right now , we talk about how great the horse's were of the past.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Bob — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:23:17 GMT

All stallions with public offered seasons should show a Vets certificate, showing any surgeries, or such. Buyers of seasons can and should request a certificate indicating all relevant material.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

pamale — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:05:56 GMT

yes indeed, where is self regulation, responsibility and restraint in the vet industry? when an extremely sound and 'well' horse like mine comes back with a $700 vet bill for one month, you know that trainers need to 'just say no.' the pressure is on the trainers to use this medication and on the owners to agree to pay for it. example: in the video of this panel, arthur hancock says he was told (or words to this effect) when he challenged the need for medication: 'everyone else is doing it and you want to win don't you?' the same situation is played out every day on racetracks across this country. but those 'legal' medications medically mask nastier substances that are sometimes used to block sensation in fractured knees etc. the only way to rid the sport of bad drugs is to make illegal all drugs, including salix and bute.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Ed Martin — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:53:27 GMT

Except for salix, raceday medications ARE banned in virtually all US jurisdictions. The issue is one of legal substances being administered by licensed veterinary professionals supposedly caring for their paitients to maintain equine health. The rules are in place. The testing is in place. What is out of place is the mindset of those who feel that they must do anything to win, regardless of whether the horse truly needs it or not. Where are the state vet boards???????

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Giraffe — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:15:54 GMT

Seems like I remember one of Better Talk Now's connections saying that Better Talk Now was used for trail riding when he wasn't racing and that this was a way to keep him fresh and from getting bored, but still providing exercise. Wasn't Afleet Alex's trainer also thought "strange" for getting Afleet Alex out twice a day for exercise? Horses are herd animals; they need to be given time to socialize -- time to just be horses. Someone told me years ago about a halter mare that was so "pampered" that she was never allowed to be around other horses. Since she hadn't socialized with other horses, she didn't know what they were and, right after delivering a foal, killed it.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Tom V. David, DVM — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:57:39 GMT

Until the allowed levels of anabolics, corticosteroids and nsaid's are removed from the horse on race day, none of the other problems in racing can be addressed because they are compromised by medication. Removal of the theraputic medication on race day will allow us to better evaluate breeding,track surface and training patterns. Medication can be changed overnight and the result will give us a clean model to study while racing continues.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Alison — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 04:18:33 GMT

Karen, I definitely, like you, agree with Whitely. It is not the horses who have changed, but our methods that we use with them. Training a horse is a balancing scale between the conditioning and the real races. When horses are trained harder, as they are today, they race less often. In the "old days" when horses were, supposedly, more durable, they raced more often and were not trained as hard and for as much speed as they are today. It is genetically impossible for the entire thoroughbred breed to turn around its general durability in 30 - some years.

re: Sound Off - by Dan Liebman

Karen in Indiana — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 01:09:45 GMT

I just saw the video about the modern racehorse and would like you to know that I agree with what Rob Whiteley said, that it's not the horse that has changed, but what we're doing with them and to them.

It wasn't surprising to me to see Big brown, an awesome horse, lose the way he did, when his schedule basically turned him into a couch potato. To expect any horse to be penned up as long as they are each day in a stable and trained on day after day and then come out and be a top-notch athlete every time the gate opens is not realistic. Horses need activity, socialization and down time. Lava Man is another example. His heart is just not in racing anymore. He's been checked physically and nothing was found to be wrong with him. Horses are fed, medicated, trained, and those things can be done on a schedule, but how do you care for the mental and emotional needs of that horse? When a trainer has 40, 50 or more horses under him and spread here and there, how is that trainer going to know when to back off or when a horse needs a break? If we stop training horses year round and give them time off when they need it, they'll be back better than ever.

I read biographies of horses of the past, and,yes, they were typically raced more often; but they also had much more time out of the stable and in a pasture. One of the benefits of that would probably be better bone strength. Even in older adults (humans), weight bearing exercise increases bone density. What is the difference in bone density between a horse kept in a stable 20+ hours a day and pulled out to exercise versus a horse allowed to roam and then exercised? I know that's not practical when a horse is at a track for races or training, so maybe the answer to that is not to 'store' them at the track all the time.

At the end of the day, while they run for our pleasure, we should keep in mind that they are after all living animals, not just investments.