Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Terri Z — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:32:25 GMT

When I think of horses going to Japan I think of how poor Ferdinand ended up in the slaughterhouse. And thank goodness for Jerry Moss's (Zenyatt's owner) generousity, so that several horses have been saved from slaugherhouses in Japan.

And I was saddened to see that Frank Stronach sold Ginger Punch to Japan. At least Three Chimneys has a binding agreement for the horses they sent to Japan to be sent back to the USA for their retirement.

Why not stop selling horses to the Japanse and to Hong Kong until they stop slaughtering horses?

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

C Bea — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:18:06 GMT

Kristen, Giant's Causeway is overrated is my point. I said I think he's a good sire just not a great sire. Take a look at what his book of mares has done when bred to someone else. They produce a better foal than they do with him.

I applaud people who look beyond the sire lists as they currently exist. Celebrating a stallion based ONLY on total progeny earnings is a disservice to our industry and leads to the recognition of stallions unworthy of progressing our breed positively.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Marley209 — Mon, 20 Dec 2010 23:15:40 GMT

I think earnings is a poor gauge. Races should be graded based on the records of the competition, other horses in the race, and the competition they faced. Other factors should be graded and included too. Running style, dependability, consistancy etc. Even after all that, you can't predict when a freak like Secretariat will come along.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Kristen Ohler — Sun, 19 Dec 2010 22:12:16 GMT

So C Bea thinks Giant's Causeway is just an average sire. He was second on the general sires list in 2008, first in 2009 and now first in 2010. He is the number 1 leading sire by worldwide earnings in 2010. He has 19 individual Grade/Group 1 winners lifetime. I think Freud is a wonderful sire. He also was 1 for 12 on the track earning $44,016. He ran 3rd in a stakes race. Giant's Causeway was 9 for 13 with 4 seconds. Never out of the money. 12 of his races were all in stakes and he won 6 group 1's. He earned $3,078.989 as in million. Pretty sure with the same mares Freud coudn't touch the Giant. And for the person who wanted to know Giant's Causeway will be 14 the first of the year. He was born in '97 and he stands 16.1 hands

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Your only friend — Sat, 18 Dec 2010 00:13:06 GMT

Have not heard on "Life at Ten"....reason.....HIGH PROFILE TRAINER AND RIDER......LAWYERS ARE WORKING BEHIND THE SCENE.Commissions/Lawyers never could do anything on time.How many weeks have gone by......GIMMIE A BREAK!

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Angel L — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 11:58:47 GMT

I agree with LanceS. We need to add Puerto Rico to the state sire list.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Jim — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 04:58:48 GMT

we all know that the japanese putses are way inflated...can we define a "pures value index"....like we have here in the US?...and then include it all into one...like start with the standard purse value index of "all Maiden Special Weight" class & then go above.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

marcelo — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 01:15:25 GMT

Top stallions such Giant’s Causeway, Gran Slam, Hennesy,Berstein, etc have served hundreds of mares in Southern Hemisphere countries and that is a powerful reason to include So. Hemisphere races and performers in a stallion statistical report.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Practical — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:58:48 GMT

I think the answer lies in how these sire lists are used and by whom. A commercial breeder will probably look at the list to see which stallion will produce the best race horse with the best return when selling the offspring, but then the stallion fee may be too prohibitive. Then again, if the stallion doesn't have the pedigree then there are certainly other factors that come into play, so in the end it really doesn't matter whether we include Japan or Dubai or Australia or whatever country's stallions, other than that the lists may get too long and not very practical for the general breeder. It would be cost prohibitive for most to send a mare from the US to Japan to be bred, but may be that is why they call it the Sports of Kings.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Savanna — Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:35:38 GMT

Man Giant's Causeway is one of the best horses I have ever seen! how old is he?

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

vegasvixen — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:28:52 GMT

All earnings in all races for a sires' progeny should be included. It should not matter where the the horse runs, only the money won. For quality purposes, stakes winners (black type, graded, and grade 1) should be included.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

C Bea — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 16:19:59 GMT

Leading Sire Lists as they've been presented historically have been archaic ever since the advent of 100+ mare books. Giant's Causeway is hardly the best sire out there. He's good, very good perhaps but he's also been the beneficiary of huge books and GREAT mares. Give his full brother Freud the same books and I suggest he's the better sire. I digress.

Sire lists as Bloodhorse publishes them and Equibase track them work against the long term interests of our sport and may in fact contribute to the weaker TB that we now breed.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

LanceS — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:47:36 GMT

Not precisely the question asked, but definitely impacts sire lists. I love all the state and regional sire lists that the Bloodhorse runs, but cannot understand why there is no list for Puerto Rico. PR-breds are included in the American Stud Book, and the races there are run for U.S. dollars. PR stallions do appear on first, second, and third crop sire lists. So why not a list of PR leading sires just like you do for all the states and Canada? I presume it would be an easy addition - just add one more jurisdiction to the list you use to pull the state-by-state data.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

EJMitchellKy — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:33:16 GMT

Lulu Todd,

You are correct Arcadius was Giant's Causeway's leading steeplechase horse.

While the horse mas misidentified, the point remains that steeplechase earnings will affect who ends up the leading sire of the year. I wasn't arguing that Giant's Causeway didn't deserve to be the leading sire. I was explaining why The Blood-Horse has traditionally included steeplechase results in the leading general sires' list. We have heard from some in the industry that steeplechases should not be included, and I felt this provided a good opportunity to discuss what criteria goes into a leading sires' list and whether the time has come to make some changes.

I would welcome your suggestions.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

zenfan — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 13:54:33 GMT

Why not have a spreadsheet instead of a list? Then people can use their own criteria to generate whatever list they want.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

AngelaFromAbilene — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:27:15 GMT

I would like to see a list of how long each sires offspring last on the track. How many broke down as 2 y/o's, how many are still running at 5-6 yos, etc. I know the information is available but it is quite time consuming to find and compile. I breed for soundness and longevity. As to the earnings, it doesn't have to be difficult; report all earnings earned anywhere there is sanctioned racing. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if all of the horses are owned by the same entity, a dollar earned is a dollar earned and a win is still a win. But that is just my humble opinion.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

nmh — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 04:24:55 GMT

horses rule:

there is an article in the current

bloodhorse mag. but it gives about

the same info as here.. i wish

they would give us a complete update on her... she is too good

to be just written off..

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Rebecca — Thu, 16 Dec 2010 01:26:19 GMT

The general sire list should include sires from all over the world. Racing is globalized, and not including other countries would be an error in my opinion.

I also think other lists should rank stallions strictly by percentage of wins, stakes wins, and graded stakes wins. This would help better determine the quality of a sire, not his quantity. Of course total earnings have the possibility of being much higher for stallions covering 200+ mares and shuttling to the southern hemisphere.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Horses Rule — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 19:04:46 GMT

to nmh - I agree - I have read nothing about Life AT Ten's condition, etc. In this case silence is not golden.

Does anybody know anything?

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Pedigree Ann — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:03:07 GMT

Which is a better stallion - one who has dozens of SWs but sired hundreds of foals, or one with only dozens of foals and fewer SWs SWs but with a higher percentage of SWs and high earners? The current method of listing rewards quantity over quality.

No matter what else is concocted, a North American only list must be available. Many US owners and breeders don't care how a stallion's get perform under racing conditions in foreign countries. They race in the US, breed for the US market; they want to know which stallions' get perform best in US racing conditions.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Kyri — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:00:22 GMT

I am not sure about Japan or the Southern Hemisphere but I absolutely think steeplechase earnings should count. These horses show tremendous courage and athleticism and a level of endurance that we need to keep in the breed.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Ryan Brady — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 15:36:06 GMT

Robert. The difference between Northern and Southern Hemispheres is the seasons of racing, and of course the all might $, in which The Southern Hemisphere doesn't quite have half as much as the Northern Hemisphere has. Just simple economics , that's all.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Lulu Todd — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 14:58:41 GMT

Rite of Passage won a Group 1 FLAT race in Europe, not a steeplechase race. You should get your facts right! Arcadius is Giant's best steeplechaser. Rite of Passage has raced on flat and fences but his Group 1 came on the flat. To say Giant doesn't deserve his accolades is ridiculous. His top earner was retired in April (Eskendereya). He would have won the Triple Crown. Giant is A GIANT as far as sires go. Your premise is wrong, sir.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

JerseyBoy — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 13:12:27 GMT

Maybe you already do this. Why not just add a list for all earnings worldwide for each calendar year, if you have the information. The public will know what it means.

You do not even need to to give it high publicity. Just tell the users where to find it.The reason is, some people would have this information even if they do not get it from the Bloodhorse. An Excel spreadsheet can do wonders.

re: Checking the Sire List...Twice by Eric Mitchell

Rachel — Wed, 15 Dec 2010 11:05:18 GMT

Earnings list are the least impressive indicator of a stallion to me...when grade 3's are $750G's adn 1 Million and multiple Gr1's are $150G's it is flawed.

I prefer runners-winners-stakes-graded-grade 1's.

Not counting steeplechasers because some don't like it? To heck with them, obviously many do...less slaughter house TB's, too.