Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

nmhiplains — Tue, 07 Aug 2012 02:56:04 GMT

I have a question for everyone in favorite of Lasix on the track---Did the Greats run with Lasix in there system???---Did Secretariat win his THREE Triple Crowns on Lasix???---Did Man O' War win twenty of twenty one race running on Lasix???--Did Cititation run 45 races in five years wining 19 out of 20 races as a three year old on Lasix?? --Did Kelso race until he was nine years old 63 races(39-12-2) on Lasix???

Should the horses that have set new track records on LASIX held by the former record holders like Dr. Fager and Forego---have a BIG Barry Bonds asterick after there name on those new track records???

Why does everyone in this industry ignore the fact that LASIX is also a blood buffer (lasix PH 9.0,baking soda PH 8.0) that interferes with the lactic acid signal that lets a horse know he is fatigued--hence the dropped fetlocks and breakdowns as the horse changes leads in the clubhouse turn.

The reason we haven't had a Triple Crown winner in over 25 years is because trainers would rather use the syringe than hire a few more exercise riders to put some long slow miles on there racehorses.

When B UTE and Dex become routine medications two days before a race and Lasix is the standard the day of the race what your telling me is you will do anything for money---Run lame horse on painkillers and anti-inflammatorys and use Lasix to take away the horse's natural defense signal that tells him not to injury himself.

Tom Ivers is rolling over in his grave and the industry has shot it's self in the foot---Because if I'LL Have Another's medication is routine than every handicapper in the country should be calling for a list of drugs given to every horse on the racecard!!!!

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Mon, 06 Aug 2012 15:12:14 GMT

words of wisdom from the elderly:

i went to the nursing home & spent 1/2 day with, "the wise old bird". he is the eldest of the bird clan@ 93 years old.

he has seen as many horse races,as, lets say someone with mr jerkens, experince.

time & old age has robbed him of some of his mental capisty. but what has been taken away from 1 side has strengthend, another side. and his masterful wit, along with his memory of detail of indivual horse races, never ceases to amaze me.

i brought up the on going debate, of the pros & cons of the use of "therapeutic drugs" on race days. we got on the computer & i read to him, from some of the blogs.

the old wise bird, set back in his chair,& reached for his pipe, & put it in his mouth. then as he pondered the information, i had read him, he slowly went through the motions, of searching for pipe tobaco & a light. ( he is only allowed his pipe, nothing to go with it.) after simulating a deep inhale, he came up with the following statement.

" i dont think we have anything to worry about. aparently they cant or havent proven that salix has any performance enhancing qualitys. because we all know that if lasix was a proven perfomance enhancing drug, these towns, (he named 3 texas towns, who are famous for their speed traps, & for railroading tourists) they would be issueing citations to elderly people for d.u.i. of lasix." he went on," that tells me that they cant prove anything, close to it".

i found that rather amusing to say the least. but it is a sellible point.

wishing a good day to all.

"an ole railbird".

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Sun, 05 Aug 2012 12:45:05 GMT

amer. racing compared to the forgien racing:

its beyond me to understand, why we in the usa, usaully , set the example, for the rest of the world. but now when it comes to horse racing we are exspected to follow to practices of the euros, as example.

do the euros, file a history of training, when they come here to race?

how do we know if their horses trained on lasix, or not.

why would we take their word, that these horses arent trained on any drug, proir to coming to the usa.?

thats the whole thing in a nut shell. the "anti therapeutic drug" faction has taken each & every arguement, "@ someone elses word".

they have no hard evidence, on any part of their arguement, to oblish, therapeutic drugs on race day.

as was mentioned early in this blog. the majority of the people who oppose the use of these helpful drugs, arent even horse owners.

& their hands on experince, with horses has been when some kind trainer,or handler, let them feed a horse mints out of their hands, & thru the fence.

the lack of facts in their arguement, is insulting to the intelligence of people who have devoted their lives to the science of horse training.

it is the same thing in comparesome, to me riding a mule to the gate of the space center. and trying to tell them how to build a new space shuttle.

it has gotten completly out of hand.

come on horseman, raise up & let your thoughts be heard.

the industry is at stake.

have a nice day,

"an ole railbird".

arent i right in believing that the 1st thing they do when they get here is put their horses on lasix?

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:54:57 GMT

the real reason????

i would like for this question to be asked of a testifying expert, under oath. this person should be in the testing end of the situation.& an expert.

the question should be. "what is the main reason that you would like to oblish therapeutic drugs on race day." but expert should be forced to find a reason that has not been mentioned at any time in the run up to this hearing.

the answer to this question, i will not reveal. yet! it is not my job.

the reason that it has not been revealed thus far, is, simply, they havent been pushed into it. they have blindfolded the "bleeding hearts lobby" &gained so much support with propanganda, that they have never been forced to show their hole cards.

when this is disclosed, it will take a lot of the wind out of their sails, & they know it.

but that is the way big money works.

i am tired& i must rest, so i can live to rail again.

i remain :

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Sat, 04 Aug 2012 15:32:50 GMT

i have a question for some of you , who have more formal education, than i.

the term," the burden of prof, belongs to the accuser".

have i misunderstood, the meaning of this phrase, for all my 64 years?

or does that phrase not apply, in the lasix debate.

some reason, i feel like that i am being lead to believe, what my eyes have seen, is not true.

f.y.i, all of you people, that are not old enough to remember. this is the tactics that FIDEL CASTRO, used to take control of cuba.

the "oblish therapeutic drugs ", crowd, has used applyed propaganda, to gain numbers of people,who have not been exposed to the real truth.

i am in hope that the majority, will pursue, more information, before commiting, to the wrong idea.

blood horse has always provided plenty of coverage, for the prosecuteing side.

it remains to be seen if the "persecuted side " will recieve the same amount of space.

it also remains to be seen, if the material made avalible, for those in search of the truth, will not be tainted with propganda.

last but not least. bloodhorse mag. should pay a little over time , in order for these blogs to stay current. they sometime are not reveiwed for days. important information may lay idle, for days. information that might be used to infulence a vote on a crucial matter.

i hope that people realize that this decision, that will be made, in a short while. HOLDS THE FUTURE OF HORSE RACING in its decision.

fact of the matter is ,NO salix, NO HORSE RACING.

i remain,

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

Sings my soul — Sat, 04 Aug 2012 10:44:05 GMT

To Bloodhorse and all others "who love government control" of most everything. Listen to the real experts like "ole railbird" and "scepter" and not the self serving "do gooders"! Do you really think that the trainers and owners are trying to harm and destroy the thoroughbreds they depend on for their livelihood ? This debate is as stupid as politics in general these days! Leave the folks alone who pay to breed and race thoroughbreds. More government rules ?????????????? "DO GOODERS" please go away!

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

Davids — Sat, 04 Aug 2012 08:44:13 GMT

How does Frankel manage to run without Lasix? How does Black Caviar survive without Salix? The rest of the world is filled with heartless owners and trainers.

Foreign owners/trainers travel to Kentucky and New York and pay premium prices for US bloodlines then manage to race these horses ed without race day medication.

However, should these same horses cross the Atlantic, back to the US to race in the Breeders' Cup, as an example, they 'instantaneously' pick-up the USA malady and will require race day medication.

It's a strange world isn't it? Those Europeans, Australians et al, don't seem to have the same concerns for their horses as we do in the USA, or do they?

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 20:47:52 GMT

i dont know about this weight for lasix issue.

i bloged earlier that i liked the general idea of it.

but i didnt understand it to read ,the same as some other people did. i take back what i said earlier, as far as giveing it my blessings. i want to know a little more on it.

with what i have read, i at least want to say, thank you for presenting an idea. whether its good, bad, or indifferent.

there is now a 2nd proposel on the table.

the only thing that has been said, by the oppostion, at this point is we are going to oppose the use of race day lasix, because i hear its bad.

if you can prove to me its bad. i will stand corrected. but you havnt even come close to proving anything, right or wrong.

to bloodhorse magizine;

you need to either take a stand, publicly. or release your staff writers, to publish their own opinions,& observasions. and staff writers should not be punished for their opinions. regardless of pro or con.

this is still amercia& as of today we are still allowed the right to disagree.

thank you for the prevlige posting my opinion.

i remain,

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

JerseyBoy — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 18:36:41 GMT

One blogger wrote:

“The people who are suggesting more weight for the Lasix horses obviously have no concern for the health of the horse”

I just looked at the range of weights carried by horses running today at Saratoga, NY and at Goodwood,UK.

The range at Goowood is 117-140 lbs. The races are up to 14 furlongs long.

The highest weight at Saratoga is 123lbs. The longest race is 13 furlongs. The high weight in that race is 119 lbs.

Those Euros must be cruel people.

Can you imagine the cruelty of a 3yo carrying 126 pounds over 12 furlongs in the Belmont?

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

sed — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 17:42:50 GMT

Why do these 42 owners have to wait till 2013 to run without Salix, if they really mean what they say, they should be running without Salix now!!!!!!

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 16:13:54 GMT

JERSEY TOM, where are you. we need your knowledge & penmanship, to lead us in this battle called PRO LASIX.

but tom, don't worry, be happy. if need be we will help you find another job & support you with our testimony.

wish all, a happy day,

"an ole railbird".

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

Karen in Texas — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:52:53 GMT

I've read the proposal as linked, and can not see the basis/criteria used by Roberts and Fox for the 3-5 lb. weight increase for horses that have been given furosemide. Where did they come up with that arbitrary amount? The only portion of the proposal that truly makes sense and is not painfully vague is the Public Education section. Those teaching efforts should go forward post haste! Meanwhile, the way to stop the rhetoric and provide factual information on raceday Lasix usage in horses is to continue veterinary university-based research. I am certain the Hinchcliffe, Morley, and Guthrie study published in 2009 will be validated and reinforced by doing so.

an ole railbird----Love the way you know how to make a point!

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

sceptre — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:38:35 GMT

Good sometimes results for the wrong reason(s). I'm sure there are trainers out there who run on lasix only for it's perceived performance enhancing effects. But, should motive be an issue, or rather should the issue/debate focus on cause/effect as it relates to furosemide (Salix/Lasix) and EIPH? Epistaxis (frank bleeding from the nostrils) is but only the most obvious manifestation of EIPH. Evidence from endoscopy is a bit more discrete, and from bronchial lavage more discrete still. EIPH does result in permanent damage to the lung's tissues. What degree of damage, if any, should be deemed acceptable? Shouldn't we first be exploring answers to questions like this?

To this blog's author:

I implied that your piece was written with bias. It's possible that you may find this unjust criticism of your "reporting" here. So, I'll offer some examples-

"...PHILISOPHICAL opposition..."-that's a somewhat positive adjective for it.

"...made a LAUDABLE commitment..."-another positive value judgment.

"...should get some VALUABLE insight..." -what about risk vs reward? By ignoring the risk(s) you are telegraphing your bias.

"...GRAND experiment..." -yet another subtle positive spin.

So what I offered before wasn't a cheap shot...Needless to say, you have the means to respond.

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:21:11 GMT

sceptre,

you & i are very much on the same page, in this little debate.

it was discussed @ the "bird clan, semi annual,home-made wine tasting,domino tourment & horse race", as to what side of the fence, BLOOD HORSE MAG., would wind up on.

the general opinion of the bird clan, was that because of the poistion being so coveted(the poistion of staff writer), that we would be hard pressed to find a turf writer, on staff @ blood horse mag., thatwould dare take up pen, in favor of LASIX.

i disagree to part of that theroy, because there is one staff writer there ,that is a true horseman. he came up thru the ranks & knows the advantages of using lasix.

will he do his duty ,for horse racing ,& take up pen?

well that remains to be seen.

how long will he remain on staff, after he takes up pen?

remains to be seen. ( but i am going to book it) if there are any gamblers in the house.

blood horse mag. knows that their bread is buttered by big money.

big money is the organitions, that is funding anti drug movement.

the only prayer that the horseman have, is to push hard, to make the oppisition, prove that lasix is a performance enhanceing drug.

if this cant be done(save lasix), then we will just let it run its course, as we did with the slaughter issue.

to do so will just cause the horse market to go into another down ward sprial.( this sprial will not have much twist to it).

its a sad situation when people who have no earthly connections, to an industry, can come with propaganda campaigns,& destroy a whole industry & all of its dependents.

i weep for the horse industry.

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 04:02:44 GMT

once upon a time, in the land before lasix.

i once fell for the con job, from a trainer, about how i would enjoy fall racing in the mountains. it was a mixed meet of quarter horses & TBs. and it was a beautiful indian summer. until it blow up a cloud, 1 afternoon & snowed 3 inches, while the races were going on. i was through for the day, before the snow started. but i hung around to see these people race horses in the snow. it was the 1st time i had seen anything like this. the skys cleared as fast as it had came. and we saw as beautiful sun set, as i have ever seen. i had hung out,in the parking lot with some people, un til dark. i then started walking back to my tack-room quarters. i was thinking of how to describe the beautiful sunset, in a letter to my sister in college. when i rounded the end of the race track, walking the same route taken to & from the barns to the saddling paddock. i can upon a vet. & probally 10 people gathered around a dead horse. i soon discovered that they were doing an autopsy on the horse. he had started bleeding from the nose & went into convulsions& died on the way back from the race track.

the vet said it was e.i.p.h. that was the 1st time i had heard the term excerise, induced used .

i can go on& on, with this subject. and it gets more gory as i go.

un til the use of scoping, became a practice. we had no knowledge of what was happening. we knew that when a horse passed blood from the nose, he was in danger of dieing.

since the use of lasix has become practice. i have known of only, 2 horses that died from eiph.

only 2 horses in 25 years, is not a bad average, in my book. it sounds like it is working to me.

i remain;

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

quiet american — Fri, 03 Aug 2012 02:17:34 GMT

i mean really how hard can it be to make a list and have bleeders on it who need lasix and then have the ones who dont ... obviously to some extent this drug does help the well being of theses athletes. The ones useing it as a so called "advantage" are the ones who should be excluded from its race day use. Adding xtra weight?, who came up with that non sense idea?

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

sceptre — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 22:39:15 GMT

fb0252 and an ole railbird,

Thanks for adding your worthwhile observations. I just wish there were more like you.

Yes, fb0252; all else equal, the greater the weight (carried on back), the greater is the chance for musculo-skeletal and soft tissue injury. Apparently Roberts and Fox could care less. And by the way, more weight carried could also cause or exacerbate EIPH-see the studies on the relationship of impact to EIPH-weight should increase impact... Take a look at the new anti-Salix website (WHOA). They have for themselves a large, well-promoted site, yet it includes absolutley nothing of substance-which could also be said for their Congressional Hearings' testimony...Lastly, I'm still waiting to see one BloodHorse pro-Salix piece. Are all the authors in one camp-the TOBA (owner of The BloodHorse) camp? What happened to journalistic integrity? Now let's see if they print this-or, if published, the wait (until the blog becomes even more "hidden").

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

Old Old Cat — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:49:31 GMT

Thank God for Old Railbird. The voice of experience brings up valid points which no one refutes or discusses. What is most important??? Answer: The health of the horse and the jockeys who ride them...

You have people suggesting that we put extra weight on the Lasix horses because they have an advantage of excess sweating which allows them to run faster. You have people saying that Lasix is bad for the horses' health because they sweat more and lose valuable water and electrolytes from their system. If the excess sweating is bad for their system, why does it make them run faster?? Make up your minds, play one side or the other.

The people who are suggesting more weight for the Lasix horses obviously have no concern for the health of the horse. Maybe they could put more and more weight on those horses until they finally break down. Then they would have new statistics to show how Lasix causes horses to break down.

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 17:30:37 GMT

once upon a time in the land before lasix,

class track,class races, for class horses.

while i was, out of service with broken foot.

i was moonlighting as a groom,& wound up in the test barn, with a winner.

while waiting i was having a conversation with 1 of the asst. vets, who was from my hometown. he &i were along way from home.

wwe were setting in the alley way of the barn, across from each other.

from 1 direction is coming a test barn tech. as a horse from the last race was entering. the horse stops & locks up behind& sits down on his haunches. he then went into fits sling his head, violently, from side to side, while hemnoraging serverly from the nose & mouth.

my friend jumped to get out of the way, & colided with the test barn tech, who was carring a fresh specesimine, that would wind up being poured down my friends back.

anyway the horse had died from pulmoary bleeding.

i have never had an answer when i asked, how they dupicated that specisome.

just 1 more of my experinces, with e.i.p.h.

i am sure there others that were in volved in racing, before lasix.

let us hear about your experinces, whether you are pro or con.

50% of the people that are ready to vote against lasix, have NO experince with it. they have formed their opinions on hear say alone. and have just looked at 1 side of the story.

good day to all

iremain;"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:48:55 GMT

randal,

please son, go do a little research.your are in over your head . i can tell from your 1st post.

do a little reading & then you will be better prepared for the discusson.

and i dont mean that in a harsh way.

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:42:59 GMT

brennen,

let me ask.. mr einstein

if it will stop fluid build up, in my mother.

would it not stop build up of fluids in a horses lungs???

i thought that was what it was all about.

"an ole railbird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

fb0252 — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:18:44 GMT

this is a ridiculous proposal. u want to keep weight off the horse's back instead of on. there is a geometrical relationship between injury causation and weight carried.

and, btw, let's let a group whose hands on horse experience is feeding peppermints on weekends decide this medical issue for horses. perfect sense.

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:17:38 GMT

e.i. p.h. pulmoary bleeding. 1960ish; before lasix

out west @ a decent class race track. in a desent,"weekly handicap".

when they turned for home, there was less than 5 lengths, seperating the 8 horse field, after everybody has wanted the lead for the last 3/8 mi.

when the lead horse has given his burst of energy& is going away by 3/4 of a lengths, when he suffers a massive case of e.i.p.h.& dies in full flight.

4 of us riders went down, before it was over.

something or some supreme being, (call him him what you want) was with us that day. we all walked away. with a bloody nose & a few minor skinned elbows& scrapes, & a few bruises. & i think there was a broken finger.

after the dust cleared& the crowd settled, & the horse was removed. we (all 4 jockeys that went down) had to ride the next race. thats how few jockeys there were.

experinces such as these, have made me a long time student on pulmoary bleeding in race horses.

if you are going to outlaw lasix, then "the powers that be", racing commissiom should be reqired to pay for scoping, on request by the trainer.

people i know you mean wellby taking a stand, against drugs.

but lasix is your friend.

you better reconsider.

wish a good day to all,

"an ole rail bird"

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

an ole railbird — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 14:21:22 GMT

here is a lesson for some, who have enough common sense to understand it. it came from experince before lasix was ever heard of.

as a teen age jockey, in the early 60s. i went on the mid-west fair circut, with a string of horses. (@that time ,we feared horses that bleed, because the only way we knew that they bleed was when it ran out of their noses. & a lot of them died).

make a long story short. in a stakes race for "tri-county owned horses". 5/8 mi. open age. $500 entry. winner take all.

4 horses went to the front, eye to eye,(the track was 1/2 mi. bull ring). the lead changed constantly for the last 1/2 mi.resulting in a very close finish. ( i ran 2nd).

the weigh back scales for the jockeys, was next to the winners circle. while we were waiting to weigh back, the winner was lead into the winners circle, which was full of people.

the horse coughed 3 times, he then reared up & turned over backwards. & started beating his head on the ground. each & every time he hit the ground, large amounts of blood & snot gushed from his nose & mouth, slinging it all over everybody & everthing.

when his dieing reflexes, finally stopped, blood& snot had been slung all the way to the 3rd row of the grand stand.

before we could finish weighing out, the scales had to be washed, because the clerk of the scales couldnt read them.

the local vet. said it was pulmonary bleeding. that was the 1st time i had ever heard the term.

in the next 8 years i saw 2 more horses die the same way. ( 1 of them in the test barn ).

do away with lasix& you will get to witness the same thing that some of us older people have seen.

then after it happens in a major stakes race, & on national tv. then just maybe, you inexperinced people will listen to what history teaches us. if only we have sence enough to learn.

have a good day.

"an ole railbird".

re: Weight for Salix - by Eric Mitchell

Randal — Thu, 02 Aug 2012 12:52:50 GMT

Mr.Mcgough;your right about,State list and state vet amdministering,but the it needs done in safely secured setting,which brings in detention barn,which know one likes but i have done for decades in t-bred sport,&thats another deterant not to put a horse on it,less need be;with fines,for overages&underages.as far as the horses over all weight has nothing to do with it.&thats not the weight carried.I do believe in the use of lasix when needed.ones that bleed out there nostrils,need laid off lasix won't stop that.let the stae vet determine,when needed cause they don't need too be on for the rest of there lives=just saying;goodday