Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Anthony b. — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:40:36 GMT

Hey what ever happened to the 50 mares was a full book and stallion farms were happy with that .Now they are not even happy with 100, greed can kill and its done just that to our industry.Wake up and start limiting books to a reasonable number and do a service to yourself and your stallion and do not accept any mare that has no black type in the first two dams..That might help bring some people to their senses as to the quality of their mare.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Cynthia McGinnes — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:42:19 GMT

We have operated Thornmar Farm for 37 years as a commercial breeding farm in the Midlantic region. We have been leading breeders for many of these years,and most recently, the first week of October, were listed in the top 10 breeders in the nation. We foal, raise and sell all of our yearlings, mostly in the Midlantic regional market. IMO, the biggest problem is that the purses at the racetrack have not kept pace with the increased cost of racing and training, and raising horses.

If the purse money for all maiden races was $60,000, as it can be in slots states like PA, then more owners could buy yearlings and afford the $35,000 it costs before they even get to the races.

It is a complex problem...causes include increased competition for gambling dollars with state and national lotteries,too much of the available purse money going to the top races, too many people who buy horses at various ages only to "FLIP' them, not race them. This is similar to the problem in the housing industry, where people didn't buy houses to live in them, but to make a profit selling them. This resulted in a glut of houses being built, and has resulted in too many horses being bred just to sell, not race.

We try to breed all of our mares with the ideas that their foals will race well,not just sell well, but in the last Midlantic sale, we only broke even on 6 of 18 yearlings,although we did better than others. We cannot continue to breed mares where we lose money on the foals, we cannot afford to race them all, and we cannot find homes for 15 year old mares who have breeding problems and/or whose foals are not commercially viable. In this case, we have no alternative ...we have to humanely euthanize them.

We do need stud fees to come down...we sold five yearlings by KY stallions last week who just brought the stud fee or a few dollars less. This didn't come close to paying for the shipping and boarding costs involved in sending the mares to KY.

I have no solutions, other than to get the purse money up somehow, so more people will buy horses to race them,instead of just reselling them.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Robert — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:49:44 GMT

I will agree with those who use the German breeding as a way to improve the American stallion population. But if we do that, you can say goodbye to every single Storm Cat offspring that ever raced. The are not sound and they certainly don't have the temperment. That is the thing about the industry in America, everyone and anyone can get into the game. What was predicted years ago is coming true. We don't have a genuine 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 mile breeding stallions anymore. Some stallions will through a winner at 1 1/2 miles, but I want to see them win 3 or 4 or 5 in a row at the distance. I have an unraced daughter of Fly So Free. She showed plenty of talent while in training and even worked 5/8ths in 59 flat, so we know the ability was there. It took one misstep to end her career. We started her off with Pure Prize and she threw a wonderful filly. The next 3 foals we simply bred for race horses and she did not disappoint. Now she is in foal to Quiet American, but she earned the right to be bred to a top stallion again. She has a fantastic pedigree and she is producing to that pedigree. But like the German breeding program, she had to earn it. It is a pity more horses aren't made to earn their breeding career.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

jimracing — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:46:27 GMT

Claiborne stud fees???? I take it they did noy attend the September sales. I believe everyone needs to send a message that 40% off maens 40% off. Stud farms you better do better than Claiborne!!!!!!!!

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Horseguy — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:06:10 GMT

Judie, I hole heartedly agree! The perception that all Thoroughbreds are to hot to handle is just that, perception. Most likely started, innocently enough, by a few high profile riders and trainers not too many years ago. And is now generally used as fact and covers every Thoroughbred known to man. Even by riders that have never been on one. Perception is hard to change unfortunately. But a good marketing champagne by the industry would go a long way. When I ski raced and taught I was either paid to use or was given equipment by companies to generate PR. The industry should think about that. Yes, off the track Thoroughbreds can be quite difficult to re-school and some will never make the transition. But in proper hands most will. I firmly believe if they are broken to ride and raced instead of just the latter it would make it that much easier for them to make the transition. I also firmly believe if they have never been trained to race and broken like any other pleasure, sport horse they will turn heads and opinions. We re-school ours and others ex-racers for pleasure, fox hunting, eventing and steeplechase. We have yet not have one make the transition. I am asked to find a "good" warmblood for customers and my reply is I only work with Thoroughbreds. In fact we are making the transition away from flat racing and breeding to strictly pleasure, sport and steeplechase horses. There are plenty of free Thoroughbreds of all ages around right now.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Judie — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 01:45:54 GMT

The Thoroughbred industry needs to take a serious look at other than racing uses for their horses! There are many lovely, well conformed Thoroughbreds that could be wonderful sport horses. However, we have allowed the European "Warmblood" industry to suck away the money that should be spent on our own very athletic animals. Eventing has allowed the Warmblood market to dilute the real ideal of the sport because the European horses are preceived to be easier for "Amateur" riders to manage. We need a strong marketing campaign to position the Thoroughbred as an all purpose breed. This will provide a market for sound, correct mares and stallions that may not be top race horses, but some of them will filter into racing and improve the breed!

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

JimboScully — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:03:31 GMT

While Anne makes a valid point about there being exceptions to every rule, especially in the Thoroughbred industry, perhaps she should choose other examples than the three stallions she did. Danzig was undefeated and untested in three brilliant starts at two and three, and Silver Deputy was undefeated in two starts at two, with one of those victories coming in an important stakes (Swynford Stakes) on the Canadian racing calender.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Chris — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:09:50 GMT

I agree with Beth that now maybe talented colts will race beyond their 3 year old seasons. But Afleet Alex is just a freshman sire meaning his oldest crop is just 2 years old of which he has already sired a G1 winner and is in the Top 10 first year sire list. If anything he's off to a respectable start.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Thor — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 03:23:41 GMT

This is a GREAT time to purchase yearlings. During the latest Fasig Tipton in Maryland, we basically stole horses from owners and yes pinhookers who were causght up in the credit crunch. How many years did we overpay for horses at auction? I have owned mares in the past and the numbers really do not make sense compared to the risk. Horse racing is a very difficul business and as owner Scott Savin gracefully stated"Horse Racing made me a millionaire. I started out with 5 and ended up with one". I really do not feel sorry for breeders that try to sell mares with a poor sales page. For example, a hip at FT Maryland was retired a maiden with 3 foals, none to race without any black type in the the first or second dam. The marketplace should take care of this situation. I would hate to have this type of foals end up at the killers.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Terry — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:03:27 GMT

How about using something similar to the German testing method for their warmbloods before allowing a stallion to stand at stud? A stallion should have to undergo endurance testing, temperament testing and be graded for soundness and conformation, as well as achieving something in performance, before being allowed to breed.

Mares should undergo similar testing, but with the stress on soundness, conformation and temperament.

All should receive a GRADE indicating their quality in each area in which they are tested. Then both stallion and mare owners would know exactly what they are getting when planning a mating.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Karin C-C — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:59:20 GMT

One result I hope to see out of the carnage of falling breeding stock prices/falling stud fees:

More geldings!

For years, people who owned colts that had even remotely marketable pedigrees figured that there was some residual value to be had by trying to send them to stud, and the result was a reluctance to geld.

Racing needs great geldings to come back to the track year after year. Horses like Forego, Kelso, John Henry, Native Diver, Fort Marcy, Fourstardave, Lava Man, Who Doctor Who. The fan base these horses have, the attention they get from the media, it's all good.

Let's face it: most stallions that are retired to stud are speculative at best, and very few make it after their first foals hit the races. Just get a out a Stallion Register from 10 or 15 years ago and look at the horses that were new stallions then, and ask how many of them made even the least impression as stallions.

Mightn't it have been better if those horses had been geldings and stayed on the track longer?

I hope, I really hope that the crash in breeding stock prices results in a bonanza of geldings. Maybe because of the crash, there's a colt with a borderline stallion pedigree somewhere who is going to be gelded and who will become a runner who will be around for years and years to come.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

CRob87 — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:45:05 GMT

I don't think that anyone is saying that AI will "Save" the industry.

Personally though, I am saying that it "Should" at least be an "Option" for Breeders.

For those who know that it "Will" save them a significant amount of money each year.

For some it might even allow them to "Survive" in this industry during the downward economy while allowing the Stallion Farms the "Possibility" of not having to lower Stud Fees (As much as they might actually have to without it).

I also don't believe that (During the downward economy) that the more popular Stallions will all be bred 200 times each or more.

However...."IF" they were, then....How different is that from the last several years of some Stallions being bred 300+ times each ???

Point being that, for some, it was already happening at those numbers anyways.

But, my belief is that this entire industry (As your seeing right now in the Sales) is still based on "Supply and Demand". And right now there is NO Demand like there was in recent years. So..."IF" Stallions still bred to over 200 mares each, then that'll just be a lot of "Unwanted Foals".

The whole AI suggestion is for those Breeders who would like to use it as an "Option"...."NOT" a "Mandatory" policy that Everyone will have to follow.

"ONLY AS AN OPTION".

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

da3hoss — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:16:04 GMT

Some good, insightful posts...

Outside of racing, there is no "other world" for TB's except a few dedicated hard working, self-sacrificing rescues.

The Jockey Club and TB world needs to take a page out of the Quarter Horse industry (which has some problems, too) but they have more than just racing...the Quarter Horse is "America's Pleasure Horse", they are the ultimate reining horse (a huge industry) and they have a HUGE youth market.

The Thoroughbred used to be America's Hunter-Jumper as well as a popular Olympic mount, a super viable market if it can find its way back.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Marsha — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:24:55 GMT

Those that are saying that artificial insemination somehow will save the thoroughbred breeding industry - don't believe it! We are in the cutting horse business, which boasts many high-end quarter horses, and we are in as much of a decline, if not worse, than the thoroughbreds. It does not help our markets at all that our top stallions are breeding up to 200 mares per year, many using AI, embryo transfers, and now we even have cloning. We have duplicates and twins of everything, and because of that, our 'middle market' is nearly gone, and some well-bred horses are becoming low-end common stock. I would recommend that the thoroughbred industry stay away from anything except live cover. Many of us in cutting wish it were back to the old way. Just my humble opinion, though :-).

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Karen — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 20:30:15 GMT

I tend to agree with PNewmarket, although I would go farther by saying thoroughbreds should be more like the Dutch Warmbloods. In order to enter stud and produce offspring that can be raced, the horse or mare must first be approved by a stud registry. If you want to breed your unsound, unproven horses, fine - you'll have a nice riding horse. If you want to sell in the market and/or race, you have to be held to a higher standard. And I hear the other side, too - "you can't tell me MY horse isn't good enough". But the over-production, inability to break even when selling a yearling, and the loss of racing dates has to trigger a change somewhere.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Anne — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:30:23 GMT

If it were up to JimboScully, he would never have let Danzig, Malibu Moon, or Silver Deputy stand at stud. I, also would much rather breed my mares to a stallion who has proven his worth on the track, but there are instances where a horse has shown such brilliance that they deserve a chance at stud. Its not so cut and dried, Im afraid.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Radrider — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:21:50 GMT

I actually think that AI would be a good thing for the breed, if it were an option, smaller breeders would be able to take advantage of the benefits of not paying boarding, shipping, feeding, etc. I think it would work if a rule was put in place that only so many mares could be AI'ed if the stud fee was over a certain price range. That way, less flooding the market with horses with the same bloodlines and more expansion. I think a major problem with the market is that people got greedy and it came back to bite those in the butt who were only there for the money. And if a mare isn't good enough, don't breed her, re-train and give her to someone who wants a riding horse. Putting them down is just sad and I think ethically wrong since there's nothing wrong with the horse itself. Sales have to got to go back to the way of proving yourself to get to the track, no more okay you had a racehorse winner in the pedigree three, four, five generations ago. That doesn't cut it. Stallions also should be raced on merit, how long they've been racing instead of what they've won. No more "Big Brown" episodes. Not a long racing career and too big of a stud fee.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

JimboScully — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:48:58 GMT

Just like market forces drove stud fees up when times were good, it is to be expected that they will decrease significantly in a depressed environment. The more serious question that stallion managers and farm owners need to ask is 'how viable is this stallion prospect?'. For far too long horses have been retired to stud absent any meaningful accomplishments on the racetrack. A prospect might have been well-bred, or cost a lot of money at public auction, or been the subject of an intense promotional campaign, but they did little to prove their worth as a valuable resource to the breed. To wit, the whole point of mating and breeding mares is that it's supposed to be an exercise in improving the Thoroughbred. Now, more often than not, it's become strictly a commercial endeavor where one hopes to guess right for the purpose of selling at auction. Recently a young colt who was an expensive auction purchase was retired to stud in Florida. He was reasonably-well bred, but he had won only a maiden race, placed in a Grade 1 stakes at two and then broke down, having never raced at three or having won anything of significance. However, the colt is owned by a powerful and wealthy individual who is likely making the decision to stand him in an effort to recoup his purchase price. The farm probably took him because they want to foster a relationship with the owner, and if they stand his stallion they will no doubt board a number of his mares, for which they will generate meaningful board revenue. While this seems like a good business move for all involved - and who could blame the players in this instance - the problem is that, given his apparent unsoundness and lack of racing credentials, the colt should not be in a position to breed and perpetuate his shortcomings. The bottom line is that the criteria by which we judge stallion prospects is completely misguided and needs to be changed to reflect a greater emphasis on potential success on the racetrack as opposed to the sales ring. If nothing else the current market conditions could force closer scrutiny of which colt is - and which horse is not - truly a viable stallion candidate.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Lmaris — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:26:55 GMT

Artificial insemination will be the death of the thoroughbred. The popular stallions will breed a thousand foals each per year and the gene pool will contract dramatically.

Pinhookers do not add value, merely cost. Asking the service providers, most of whom exist on far narrower margins than the breeders themselves, to reduce their fees is absurd.

There will be a contraction of breeders just as there has been in most other industries in this economy. It will pass. Patience is required.

But first and foremost, stallion owners must be realistic about their stud fees. No unproven sire deserves a stud fee above $30K.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

tim mawhinney — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:31:43 GMT

we talk about lowering stud fees which needs to happen,but what about the supporting cast members,the vets,traning farms,feed and hay suppliers.their fees are the same when we were in the boom years.why should they still make the same money when breeders are taking a hit.i do not know what others are paying in their operation,but it is costing me the same to feed,vet,trim as it was two years ago.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

pNewmarket — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 06:32:29 GMT

A few points to make:

1. Perhaps it is time the rest of the world took notice of the way Germany deal with their stallions - every stallion must have raced for AT LEAST two seasons (doesn't have to be consecutive) and no stallion can go to stud if he has raced on medication/drugs of any kind.

This is one reason why the German bred are so sound and everyone else could elarn a lot from their methods.

2. AI - always a thorny subject! Don't foget that one country cannot act alone on this matter, there has to be International agreement between the members of the International Stud Book Committtee. If one country were to go it alone and permit AI they would find their horses banned from running in other countries that had not approved AI.

3. I firmyl believe that new stallions should have their books limited to 70 mares per year until theirr first crop of 3yos has run. After that if he has proved to be good the limit can be lifted; if he proves to be useless at least we won't have a market flooded with dross.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Kim in KY — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 04:27:40 GMT

Just have to say Afleet Alex has something a lot of stallions lack- proven "heart". I remember his Preakness and honestly, I don't know how a horse couldn't be hurting in some way after all that. I would have retired him too. I am not greedy on what a horse can make for me in earnings. It is the horse first always. If they are at more risk (because every day it's a risk- not just races but workouts and even in their stalls- anything can happen in the best of circumstances) than usual then don't PUSH!! Maybe Alex told them in his own way he was done. I know, I have worked firsthand with these horses and they do tell you. Good for his owners and trainer for making the right decision. By the way, Alex only has three crops on the ground, (not much time to prove himself) and he has DUBLIN- very likely a triple crown contender and maybe even a Breeder's Cup Juvenile contender to his credit. I'd say he's a worthwhile stallion wouldn't you? A multiple G1 winner siring a G1 winner? I thought that's what a good stallion prospect was all about...

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

Scott — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 03:32:56 GMT

U people r nuts has it so right. Supply and demand is an open market.

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

sickened — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:56:07 GMT

Jonathon- You are right on about the "kind solution". Mares are being put down regularly right now, not because they are sick or horribly unsound, but because they simply aren't good enough. Barren mares who aren't commercial are being put down as their current foals are weaned. What would happen to our sport if the national media caught on to that??

re: Stallion Sale - By Dan Liebman

wild bill — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:43:45 GMT

we need to think outside the box if the industry is to survive

the horse industry is like the catholic church--they are

afraid to change

here are a few ideas

1. we need to quit raising victoria

secret models (sale horses) and start raising athletes

2.make a stallion prove himself before he gets the big bucks--look at all the first round draft picks who never show up on sunday

3.two year olds don't race until june 1

4.do away with breezing at two year old sales-- buyers pay millions at yearling sales where they only walk--a two minute lick tells a lot about a horse--this is a good example where we put the horse first and the dollar second.

5.anyone who injects a horse's joint at a two year old sale needs to find another occupation

6.artificial insemination--i had a friend killed trying to load a horse at the breeding shed--time to go green and save gas as well--sorry for the van companies but if we keep sliding backwards the van companies are not going to survive anyway--mares have thrown van fits resulting in injury as well--foals have been injured and even died as a result of separation from the mares going to the shed--mares will be required to board in the state of the stallion and books will be limited to 100 mares

7. the kentucky senator is right--slots are not the answer--but they sure will help!!!!!

8. why do horse farms pay 6% sales tax and cattle and tobacco farms don't?

9. the agents that ripped off buyers by double dipping got a slap on the hand and no time in the penalty box--had they done that in the stock market they would have been next to Martha Stewart at meals--we need to police our own business--i recommend 6 months of mucking stalls at Old Friends (horse retirement farm) for the greedy

10.any mare who does not win a race

cannot be bred unless a $5000 fee is paid--this will stop cheap mares going to the shed--the $5000 will go toward jockey's insurance--pro athletes are treated like rock stars, jockeys are not--how many basketball players are paralyzed each year? jockeys have been on the bottom of the food chain way too long!!!!

I'm not even going to discuss drug abuse--it's about time we put the

horse first!!!!!