King's Bishop Stakes Winners

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

slewofdamascus — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 03:25:39 GMT

Lost In The Fog was "average" to what?

He won an eclipse award didn't he? How many of these won Eclipse awards?

Average horses usually don't win Eclipse awards.

He was not average by any standard.

He earned my respect, because he showed up every time. I would put his best race up against anyone, including Hard Spun, even though I ranked him 2nd behind Hard Spun. I find the visual evidence of his ability outweighs the "company he kept" argument. Jmo, of course.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

LDP — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:34:30 GMT

Tiznowbaby,

Dang right they didn't hand pick through his races. The horse raced ten times in close to 38 weeks. All were graded stakes, six were grade ones, and that includes the sprint, the King's Bishop. The only horse i believe ran that hard that year was Curlin with nine races, eight graded stakes, and six were grade ones. Both were the only two two compete in the entire TC series aswell, and did very well. SS raced eight times, skipping the Belmont. He like Curlin raced in eight graded stakes, but only five of those were grade ones. This to me pales in comparison to HS and Curlin, becase after the TC HS ran in just one race that was not a grade one, and Curlin was entered in nothing but Grade ones after his TC. Hard Spun and Curlin to me both had some of the hardest seasons that year, and both always showed up. Hard Spun like you said just happened to be born the same year as two other monsters. Had those two been born in the year after him, i can almost bet he'd be considered great.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 18:17:28 GMT

To even consider Lost in the Fog in the same class as Hard Spun, is a joke.

Go ahead everyone and bash me. Dont care. Hard Spun is by far the more impressive of the two, and by far a better quality of a horse.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Tiznowbaby — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:26:31 GMT

LDP, I'd put Hard Spun with Believe It -- who had the misfortune to be born the same year as Affirmed and Alydar.

I admire Hard Spun's connections because they sent him to war most everytime instead of spotting carefully into races they were positive he'd win. He was outside his comfort zone most of his career.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

LDP — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:35:24 GMT

If SS hadn't been so lucky to get another rail trip in the Derby, we would've see Hard Spun winning by i believe 5 1/4 lengths. He was more than just a nice horse, in fact had he been born into another crop he would've gotten that Grade one win in a Classic. Had he not been asked to move too soon in the Preakness he again would've been right there. He finished second, and at times beat the likes of Curlin and SS. The fact that he could carry his speed as far as he did was amazing. Had Curlin not been in the 07 Classic Hard Spun would've beaten the field, by what looked like 6 or 7 lengths. How many horses can do that? If niether Curlin or SS were born in the same year, Hard Spun would be a superstar. He was extremely versitle, he could rate or set the pace, he could sprint or go 1 1/4. Like Sham, though he was unlucky to be born the same year as Curlin and SS, like Sham he always shined but was outshined by another. Many of us consider Sham a great horse, but can't do that with HS. This horse deserves more respect than, he's just a nice horse.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

GunBow — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 06:31:03 GMT

Fire Slam:

I respect your admission.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

tbb — Sun, 30 Aug 2009 01:25:51 GMT

capt candyman can? nothing more needs to be said. we have wasted our time discussing a Grade 3 race.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:21:55 GMT

GunBow--

I agree. I did not know Lost in the Fog won that many GRADED STAKES.

Still think he was only average. But you opened my eyes, and I cant disagree with the facts you presented.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

GunBow — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:04:05 GMT

1.Housebuster

2.Hard Spun

3.Lost in the Fog

4.Squirtle Squirt

They are all good horses, which is why they are on the list. The King's Bishop became a grade 1 in 99', having been a gr.2 from 92'-98' and a gr.3 from 87'-91'.

As for Lost in the Fog, he won 6 graded stakes races:

Gr.1 Kings Bishop-Saratoga

Gr.2 Riva Ridge-Belmont

Gr.2 Swale-Gulfstream

Gr.2 Carry Back-Calder

Gr.3 Bay Shore-Aqueduct

Gr.3 Aristides-Churchill

Overall, Lost in the Fog won 11 of 14 starts, with 10 stakes wins(6 graded).

Lost in the Fog began his career in November as a 2 year old and promptly ran a 103 Beyer first out. Over his first 10 starts(all of which he won), he ran a Beyer over 100 each time, with top figs of 116, 114, 110, 109, and 107.

The winning fig for the 2005 BC Sprint(in which Lost in the Fog was well beaten) was a 114, so it was not like the winner(Silver Train) towered over Lost in the Fog in terms of speed/ability. Whether the loss can be attributed to cancer, however, is unknown. Perhaps he simply had an off-day for reasons unrelated to his future illness. Or, perhaps, he just couldn't handle the early pace pressure of older males. For if there is a criticism of Lost in the Fog it is that he won only one graded stakes race against older horses(that being the 2006 Aristides at age 4), and had faced older horses only once prior to the 2005 BC Sprint, when he won the ungraded Bay Meadows Speed Handicap over 4 overmatched challengers. However, to write that he only won races at "cow" tracks is simply factually incorrect.

Fire Slam, regardless of your overall expertise in the sport, your comment about Lost in the Fog only winning stakes at "cow" tracks was wrong. In fact, of Lost in the Fog's 11 career victories, 6 came in graded stakes, none of which were at Golden Gate or Bay Meadows. Those are the FACTS. Now, if you want to claim that the competition in these graded stakes was subpar or that he did not beat an elite sprinter in those races, that's entirely your perogative. In fact, I too question Lost in the Fog's competiton, and am confident that horses like Housebuster, Hard Spun, and Squirtle Squirt defeated better horses than did Lost in the Fog. But facts are facts. Lost in the Fog most certainly did not race primarily at "cow" tracks(whatever that even means) nor did he win a majority of his stakes in ungraded affairs- of his 10 stakes wins, 6 were graded, coming at Belmont, Aqueduct, Saratoga, Gulfstream, Churchill, and Calder(Summit of Speed).

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

SusanW — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:26:36 GMT

To me, Hard Spun 07 was the most exciting King's Bishop. He showed such courage and heart beating back First Defence. An amazing performance, and then the Kentucky Classic beating Street Sense. I always wish we could have seen more of him.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

tbb — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 03:29:14 GMT

mat, i stand corrected as hard spun did beat street sense at turfway. but i do not rank "finished ahead" in other races as high as you do. to me, hard spun was a nice horse with a nice pedigree. but without the Kings Bishop he would not be a Grade 1 winner.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Stan M — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 01:11:12 GMT

All I can say is I wish you all had seen the great"Doctor"! I know, it does nor pertain to this poll but "Fager" is the one horse who you should judge your favorite sprinters against. All those horses in the poll deserve their due so appreciate the fact that you had the privilege to watch them run. I am sure their will be others we will be arguing about in the years to come so let's enjoy the ride year after year!

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:25:15 GMT

Way to go MAT. Got you TBB. Hard Spun beat a horse named----????? Street Sense. I think that horse won a race called the Kentucky Derby. Is that a grade 1???

Well I be, it is. Look at that. you was wrong.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

stats — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:26:56 GMT

Hard Spun beat at least 11 diffrent G1 winners, some more than once: Street Sense, Any Given Saturday, Lawyer Ron, Curlin, Stormello, Tiago, Circular Quay, Scat Daddy, Great Hunter, Nobiz Like Shobiz, First Defence.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

rjb — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:11:19 GMT

i saw all those king bishops live and lost in the fog proved he was a champion sprinter. forestry was the most visibly tired that i watched although he certainly turned into a very good sire.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

MAT — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:38:24 GMT

tbb, Hard Spun beat Street Sense at Turfway Park that fall. He also finished ahead of Curlin twice, Street Sense a second time in the BCC, and AGS twice, not to mention all the others behind him in the BCC. Yes he only finished first in a G1 race, but he finished ahead of a lot of GW winners in his other races. So, saying he never beat a G1 winner is false.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:04:13 GMT

If the tumors were there during the Breeders Cup, then they must have been there during the Grade 3 he won at Churchill Downs nearly a year later.

He hooked some runners in the Breeders Cup and got beat!! The horse never ran against anything. One G1 win---Im pretty sure, and the majority of his wins were in non graded stakes at tracks such as Golden Gate, a far cry from the tracks and comp Hard Spun ran at and against.

Also, Im pretty sure it was the Kings Bishop that Hard Spun pushed fractions of 21 and 44, got passed by a neck, and still dug in to win.

Lost in the Fog went 22 and 44, and it was not as a deep as field.

What else has Lost Soldier thrown?

Please, the folks who are calling me ignorant, don't become bloodstock agents.

Again, sorry the horse had to die the way he did. A solid runner--yes, A star---HECK NO!!!

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

LDP — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:26:23 GMT

Fire Slam,

He had three tumors if i recall correctly, and when they found them, they were pretty big. This tells me that either that it was real aggressive, if it started in the beginning of the next year, or that it had just started forming before before the Sprint, but was to small to really detect. Just because they found the tumors after the Sprint does not mean that they weren't there before, or during the sprint. If you know anything about cancer, you know it's unperdictable. It can be very slow to grow, or very aggressive, you never know.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Paseana — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 04:05:13 GMT

Thank you Perplexed! I was so completely dumbfounded by Fire Slam's comment that a response was impossible for me at the time!

Here's another absurdity:

"......and his ability to carry his speed two turns---something Lost in the Fog never could do."

This is a really knowledgeable statement....Lost In The Fog was NEVER ASKED to carry his speed two turns! Does that mean that we know he could have? No, of course not, but to suggest that he "never could do it" when he never tried is, at best, completely disingenuous!

By the way, Lost In The Fog's tail-male grandsire was....you guessed it....DANZIG! He also carried the Rassmussen factor (Natalma on top and Cosmah on the bottom), and his damsire line was through Caro.

I didn't rank Lost In The Fog nearly as high as the consensus seems to have done, but to say those things about him is truly nothing short of ignorant!

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 02:33:53 GMT

From what I can see of his PPS, he had only one Grade one 1 win against his age group, never beating older horses in a grade 1.

Again, sorry he died the way he did. Don't like to see any horse go that way. Also, I may be wrong about the PPS, but how can he be considered a great sprinter, if the majority of his victories were small fields, ungraded stakes, against subpar comp?

And---the cancer showed up way after the Breeders Cup Sprint Bomb. He did come back from that effort to run awesome at Churchill Downs in the Aristadis. So what was the excuse for the Breeders Cup Sprint bomb? Looking at his PPS, he was taking a big class jump.

By the way PERPLEXED, I am willing to bet my pedigree in horse racing far exceeds yours. No need to argue with you about my knowing the sport.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

tbb — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:34:19 GMT

First of all the King's Bishop is somewhat of a joke. It is for 3 year olds only and we all know the best sprinters are older horses. It should be a Grade 2 or 3. Having said that, Housebuster used it as a prep for much bigger races later on. He was a true champion as a sprinter (but he beat other GSW1 winners in doing it). At the other end of the spectrum is Hard Spun. While a nice horse, and well bred (has nothing to do with the question, by the way) this is the only GSW1 race he won. He never beat a GSW1 winner is his career. They plsced him in this race just to get his GSW1 win and that shows that is is really not a big race. As for the rest of them, they were just fast horses who got lucky enough to get into a GSW1 for 3YO only. Except, Squirtle Squirt, who was really fast and went on to beat GSW1 winners (you have to do that to be considered great) in the Breeders Cup Sprint. So, Housebuster a clear #1, Squirtle Squirt a distant #2 and the rest are nice horses but not worthy of talking about.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Perplexed — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:04:02 GMT

Fire Slam wrote - "But when he was healthy, he ran in three horse fields at Golden Gate and other cow tracks."

Lets see...he won graded stakes at Churchill, Belmont, Saratoga, Aqueduct and Gulfstream. Verdict is in...you have no idea what you are talking about

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Jeremy — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:10:52 GMT

I have to go with HouseBuster. He almost won the Met Mile with a field that included the great Easy Goer and future Horse of the Year in Black Tie Affair finishing second to Criminal Type. I truly believe if he did not injury himself in the '91 Sprint he would have beaten Sheik Albadou and best believe he would have been in that stretch duel with Dayjur and Safely Kept in the '90 Sprint. On his best day he was hard to beat. Lost in the Fog was a true sprinter, if it werent for the tumors and Henny Hughes at one point looked unbeatable still shocked he ran a clunker at churchhill downs

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Fire Slam — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:17:40 GMT

Here we go again. Lost In the Fog beat NO ONE.

Hard Spun is by the far the best, and will probably prove to have a lasting impact in the breedingshed, due to his pedigree (Danzig), and his ability to carry his speed two turns---something Lost in the Fog never could do.

Feel sorry for the poor horse, the way he died. But when he was healthy, he ran in three horse fields at Golden Gate and other cow tracks.

re: King's Bishop Stakes Winners

Bill Smith — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:22:43 GMT

Don't usually like to leave messages but in this case it is more than necessary!

HOUSEBUSTER is and always will be the best sprinter of all time!

To have any other horse but him in the top spot is ludicrous!

Housebuster was the Quintessential sprinter(look it up in the dictionary people!)

Housebuster would CRUSH this field like there was no tomorrow!

If you don't know horse racing please don't vote in the polls or leave comments...you just tarnish the sport I love dearly!