I would rank Curlin #5, over SS & EG, because he is racing at the top as a 4yo.  I agree with the rest of your rankings.

curlin should be in 4th spot. he is fantastic!!!!!!!!

I like your top 4 picks but I'd rate Curlin above Sunday Silence and Easy Goer.I think Curlin's hooked tough ones and easy ones, differint surfaces at differint countrys. That alone makes him stand above those to cause they didn't have the chance to travel like Ciger and even Skip Away. Man that Skip Away was an iron horse. You can make an argument for all your top ten,but I guess that's the whole point eh Jason.

Curlin grew up to become a really good horse.  Its a shame each year the best horses are retired.  No Afleet Alex or Invasor or Hard Spun to run against Curlin.  What we end up with is boring has beens like Brass Hat or Jonesboro running against a horse like Curlin.  Look at the field he just raced against... not one of them broke a 100 Beyer Red Rock Creek hasn't  broken a 100 Beyer EVER ! Einstein has never broken 100 on dirt Sam P has never done it and Delightful Kiss broke 100 twice last year. Curlin ran against a very weak bunch and the only one that can give him a race he will never run against. Curlin lost 3 times as a 3 year old and did not win the Derby or the Belmont.  Its hard to put him very high if you don't win two out of three Triple Crown races.  Let's face it he isn't running against great older horses because they have been retired.  If they want to prove what a great horse he is let him beat the world's best 3 year old... but we all know that race will never happen....don't we.

I loved Cigar and I love Curlin, too! They are both great in their own rite. It's impossible to say which horse is better. How about a tie?

I think I'd place Curlin in the fourth slot, as well. The first three ......well, WHO could argue with those? The Bid stands alone, Cigar is another well-traveled champion who has conquered other racing venues and with a great deal of style and class. But John?? John is John....lost everything in sight as a baby, really didn't grow up until he was about 5, carried high weights, banged around on the turf and the dirt, put The Bart in his place, lost BADLY in Japan, but came back and raced on, winning more than he lost until he turned NINE, fer Pete's sake. THAT year he only won his final four starts, and six of his final seven races. He missed racing in the first Breeder's Cup by a whisker when he had to retire with an injury. Maybe HE should be Number One??

Back to Curlin, though. He really has a distance to go before he will jump to the top of this particular list, but right now he sure does look like a MONSTER! Loved his win in Dubai, but he made the Stephen Foster look like a light work..........WOW!

And, I don't know about the rest of the readers here, but I LOVE THIS! A REAL horse with some bottle, and guts and HE'S RACING!!! YAY!

Cheers to all.....

Sigh...you're missing Ghostzapper.  He'd dust numbers 2 - 10 in any race from 6f - 10f, no questions asked.  And his lack of racing seems irrelevant when you're putting Point Given and Curlin on the list - two horses who didn't exactly rack up the starts.  

Let's put a few things in context.  There are some good horses on this list with stats that need closer scrutiny.  Wins, regardless of the total or consecutive does not mean much.  I would equate this to the record of a boxer.  A boxer can pile up wins by impressive knockout many times in a row.  But we all know that doesn't mean much.  So having said that, I suggest we look at wins that actually mean something.  Yes, track records do sound good but there are other factors involved in that, like who else ran on that track and what were the conditions when they ran. Remember Curlin ran a track record at the Breeders' Cup Classic on a sloppy track in Monmouth where some great horses ran in the past.  And yes, Bid ran some world record times which is impressive.  If Curlin does win out the rest of these huge races in 2008 this would mean much more that any number of consecutive wins or other records.  The quality of competition that he will have faced in his races would be almost immeasurable.  I have not calculated this but if someone has time they should count how many Grade 1 winners each has beaten in Grade 1 races.  To conclude, if Curlin dominates the best Turf horses in the world like he did on Dirt, this would put him way up on this list, probably top 2.  Bid was a very fast horse.

i'm interested to know how you came to the conclusion that curlin is the best horse in the world...best dirt horse yes...best on turf as well...it's impossible to even have the tiniest comparison as he's never even raced on turf

Sunday Silence #4,then Curlin followed by Skip Away and Easy Goer.

He would have to win out to be in any top ten.  Curlin has finally started to win races impressively and consecutively.  If he wins his last 3, he wins 7 straight which would give him credibility and a 7th place vote from me.

does he really need to prove himself on the grass across the pond...rather see him bump heads with Big Brown...hes a damn good one thats for sure...its a tie for #1 between John Henry & Cigar...Long Live The King!!!

Curlin is the best today but still has a way to go.  I would love it if someone could figure out "money earned" by taking inflation into account.

Curlin should be #3, John Henry moved  up to #2, and Cigar to #4 spot.  Curlin carried 132 lbs in his Dubai prep and 128 lbs in Stephen Foster...reminiscent of the great handicap horses in the 1970s, 1960s and earlier in horse racing's heyday.  He is a throwback....one of the best I've seen in the last 30 years!!!

Although your ranking seems ok, I think you're underestimating the importance of a potential Arc win.  It's not just a 'Group 1 turf win'.  Its the most prestigious race in the world, and if he wins it, it would forever impact the current European view of U.S. racing as horses as 3rd rate.

You need to make room for Afleet Alex on your list.  What he did in the Preakness was remarkable and reminded me of when racehorses were tough and durable.  For a horse to almost fall, pick himself up and win is incredible.  It hows heart and a will to win.  He must be considered among the horses you have named.  He deserves it.

If Curlin were to win the Arc then he would be the best horse of the last 30yrs. He would have beaten the best dirt performers over the past 2 years. Remember the arc usually attracts the best turf horses in the world (no disrespect to the american turf races), so to beat the best european horses would be some feat. Dare I say, he would have surpassed Spectacular Bid?

I know I have missed something but what was it about Spectacular Bid that places him at the top of the list? What made him greater than the horse at the bottom, Point Given? I cannot recall.

I think your Top selection is The Best Horse to EVER Look Through a Briddle... Curlin should be above Easy Goer on your List

If Curlin manages to do well on the turf, especially winning the Arc (which I hope he does) I think he should be rated at least 4th on the list, if not higher. The fact that the horse has performed well on both surfaces makes him much more of a superhorse. To me, that versatility makes a great horse. I think we're about to see a great horse.

Who says they will retire him at four? What would that do to your ranking if they didn't? I'm not so sure that JJ will retire him after his comments this weekend. Maybe after he buy's the jailbird's interest, out he'll let him run. I am greedy enough to beg him to let him run. Curlin could be more..... a legend,even...he just needs the opportunity. He has the talent and heart. Go Curlin GO!

The Best Horse in the World?  You didn't include any horses outside the United States.  

I think your 7th place ranking is fair.

How can you not rank Ghostzapper as one of the best horses in the last 30 years!  He was a freak who won at all distances and recorded the fastest Beyer at two turns a 128 and the fastest ragozin number ever of a -3.

How can your top 10 not include Holy Bull or Ghostzapper?  If there is a minimum starts requirement then Ghostzapper may not be eligible, but The Bull was awesome in every start but one.

1.Spectacular Bid

2.Cigar

3.Holy Bull

4.John Henry

5.Skip Away

6.Curlin

7.Point Given

8.Sunday Silence

9.Easy Goer

10.Silver Charm

My list would be as follows:

1.  Cigar

2.  Alysheba

3.  Silver Charm

4.  Curlin

5.  Ghostzapper

6.  Easy Goer

7.  Point Given

8.  Tiznow

9.  Skip Away

10. Sunday Silence

You can't rate horses like Barbaro or Big Brown - because they will not have the change to prove themselves with a "real" career.  Afleet Alex was a nice horse, but he did not rank with a horse like Cigar or Skip Away.  I think Curlin winning a Gr. I (the Arc) is actually a longshot.  If he does - I consider it a great achievement.  But, there have been other horses to win big races on both surfaces.  Money earned is no biggie - in that the purses and bonuses these days are so huge.  You can't compare a horse like Curlin winning $10 million to a horse like Spectacular Bid with only a fraction of the earnings.  It is the races and the competition that matter.

The prix de l'arc and japan cup should place him 3th; if he stays around 1 more year he could easily be 1st???

Curlin #4. Skip Away should be lower and no way Silver Charm should be in the top 10. Street Sense or Smarty Jones replaces Silver Charm.

I'm not sure how any of these horses can be rated ahead of Curlin should he win the Arc. None of these horses ever ventured overseas (with the exception of Cigar going to Dubai). So if he wins the Arc that would be totally unprecedented in the history of American racing.  Easy Goer wasn't even the best horse of his generation (and was a total flop whenever it rained).  John Henry was a turf specialist (yeah I know he won the Jockey Club, barely).  I don't recall him ever dominating a race (he always was all out and won by a length or two it seemed).  Skip Away failed in both Triple Crown races he ran in, and got bombed the last time he ran in the Breeders Cup. Sunday Silence never completed his 4 year-old season (and I believe he lost to Criminal Type a couple of times that year).  Maybe you could make a case for Cigar and Spectalular Bid, though neither did what Curlin is attempting to do.  And the thing that bothers me the most is that Ghostzapper was left off the list entirely. He happened to be the fastest and most dominating horse of all these(albeit it was really just a 6-race winning streak before an injury cut his career short). But even he never ran beyond 1 1/4 miles, or tried the turf.  Curlin is clearly not getting the respect he deserves.  So much attention gets paid to Big Brown, who could possibly be the worst thing that ever happened to the sport of horse racing, and Curln repeatedly gets ignored.  So I'm not surprised by this article.  But I won't let it bother me.  I'm just going to enjoy watching the most beautiful & powerful horse I've seen since Secretariat, do something no racehorse has ever done in the history of the sport.   And maybe after all that happens, he'll get the credit he deserves.

I understand what you are saying about Curlin not running enough times to top Cigar, who ran 33 times.  However, he didn't have the oppertunity to run as a two-year old, eliminating his chance to run at least a few more times.  Also, if he wins the Arc, he would accomplish something that none of the horses on your list could.  Even Secretariat didn't.  Does that not qualify him as  one of the greatest horses ever-winning the biggest dirt race in the world, and the biggest turf race in the world?  I don't mean to question your judgement, as it's entirely opinion, but I personally believe that Curlin could be better than Cigar.

And where is the love for Invasor??  He only lost one race in his career, and he's got the 2nd fastest DWC.  He'd have trounced Curlin.  He won on 3 continents, is a triple crown winner, and the only race he lost, he lost after doing all the travelling that he did.  He had a good reason for not showing up in the UAE derby.  When he was looked in the eye, he looked back, and prevailed.  And he didn't lose to a girl.  ;-)

Where ever you rank him, you have to put Invasor ahead of him.  

1) Spectacular Bid

2) Curlin

3) Point Given

4) Personal Ensign

5) Sunday Silence

6) Easy Goer

7) Cigar

8) Skip Away

9) John Henry

10) Tiznow/A.P Indy

Thank you for this blog.  I think it's fantastic.

My only problem with your list is that I think it over emphasizes longevity a bit.  I think alot of people do that when doing rankings in most sports so perhaps I am the one who is wrong.

If Curlin wins the Arc, he will have done something that is truly, truly incredible.  I hope he does it and his ranking should reflect that.  

Other than The Bid, Point Given is the best horse I have seen since 1978.  He was dominant.

And Personal Ensign was truly something special.

Again, thanks for the great columns/blogs.

If Curlin wins, in the course of 12 months, the Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup, and the Arc, then he would have to be at least figured into the top 2.  The switch in surfaces would rate very highly in my book, I have always said that if Dubai Millenium had not been injured he would have also been an all-time great.

I would definintely put Curlin number 4 right now, not 3 wins from now. If Curlin wins out this year, especially on turf, he could be considered the best of all time. Remember, Curlin has matured late and he's getting better. Also, he is defeating horses internationally.

As for the 10th position on the list I would remove Point Given and put Snow Chief there, he was one of my favorites and also still has the track record at OP at 1 and 1/8 miles.

I'd trade places with Easy Goer and Alysheba, and keep Curlin at that number.

But as far as after the 1990s, it's Cigar, Skip Away (grudgingly), Curlin.

Well, Jason as your colleague Steve Haskin might allow, albeit it in my artful syntax, hard to compare horses from different years, much less across a generation.

That said, if Curlin does go over to Europe and wins on the turf (I suspect this was always in the back of the Jackson's mind vis-a-vis Barbaro, who has great as he was on the dirt, looked the part of a classic turfer to me with his knee action/turn of foot), then I will have to give VERY serious consideration to placing him, as you do here, at least among the top 10.

Funny a projected 15 starts would make him today a comparatively

"heavily raced" horse, seeing how even my retired guy-now eventer managed twice that number over the same time period in his career-- of course, that was the late 80's, which also serves to make Steve Haskin's point, once again, as well.

Cigar was of another time, another place-- was great to see him at the KY Horse Park. I don't think he would be particularly impressed with who you have ranked ahead of him :-) I am sure Cigar's breeder, the Ponds family over on Country Life Farm in Fallston, MD (also near Bel Air, MD and the hometown of Lincoln's nemesis, John Wilkes Booth), would agree.

Interesting side note: Cigar as I recall proved infertile in the breeding shed, and at stud Spectacular Bid was something decided less than spectacular, his stud fee annually dropping like a rock in a pond over at Claiborne. Curlin will have to be a total dud as a stud to lose that race.

Curlin should be 3rd or 4th now, and is in a great position to do things never done before. He has never been fully extended except during that Belmont "sprint" to the wire against Rags when he was a tired horse and she was fresher. He tied the time record in the Preakness after being passed in the stretch! Exceptional individual accomplishments can certainly equal a "body of work" that extended over a longer period of time if they are significant enough. Cigar could not run well on turf--what if Curlin can? What if Curlin equals or breaks more stakes/track records? If Steve continues to manage this horse as well and carefully as he has over the past year, then many wonderful racing feats may be in Curlin's future. We can all go along for the ride.

PERSONAL ENSIGN (they should make a movie about her - plus she beat Ky derby winner WINNING COLORS, who was also a filly)

ALL ALONG (another Great International mare)

RUFFIAN (equaled the track record on her maiden)

Rating horses this way is awfully tough.  Circumstances were different for each one.  Does anyone remember that Cigar didn't learn to run until he was 4 or 5?  He was a late developer.  The shame in all that is he is sterile.

Curlin is a remarkable horse and the Arc is something they are considering.  They don't know that he will like the grass.  He hasn't run on it although he is superior on the mud which could mean he would do well on grass.  There is one person on here who is so sure that Curlin's connections are afraid of Big Brown.  Not so.  His trainer mentioned it after the Foster that it shouldn't be "down the road" but sooner as you never know what will happen down the road.  I would be disappointed if Curlin didn't run the BC Classic.  He should go for it.  The Arc is in early October and he could make it.  If he can run on grass, he can run on a synthetic surface.  Has BB run on one yet?  There is one person on this board who thinks BB would beat Curlin anytime

and he's ducking him.  Well, we don't even know if BB will run again.  We'll have to see.  Maybe he's ducking Curlin.  Sure, they talk about plans but they aren't for sure.  It's just talk right now.  BB's future is really up in the air right now.  Would be great to see he and Curlin hook up.  I would love to see that!

If Curlin is able to win the Arc, anyone doubting his validity as one of the 5 or 10 best race horses of alltime wouldn't be very credible in my book.  I first heard this idea about winning a Triple Crown race Breeders Cup and Arc proposed by Micheal Matz in talking of what Barbaro might have been able to accomplish.  Any horse who can win a TC race (= stakes record) the BC Classic (track record time) The Dubai World Cup (3rd fastest ever) and The Arc in any time would be a monster. I'd be willing to bet if he pulls it off many of us will never live long enough to see it done again.

You can't compare Cigar and Curlin.  Cigar's 16 Race Streak hasn't been repeated since......I will say, yeah Curlin is the best, if he can also win 16 straight wins.

Just not apples and apples.

Although he only ran 11 times, Ghostzapper should not be left off any list of great horses of the last 30 years.  Curlin hasn't come close to his top 128 Beyer score.

So what is greatness?  Durability, earnings or speed?

Hey Draynay at least Curlin lit the board in the Derby and the Belmont.He also ran on all types of surfaces and the connections didn't use the surface as an excuse.He also seems to be able to eyeball another horse and keep on running.It doesn't seem to bother him to be in tight quarters and holy cow he's made almost 10 mill! The name of the game in horse racing is to make money and find the best spots to do it.He seems to be doing a good job of that so far.

I believe that should Curlin win out in these races that we are speculating he will run in then he definately is number one on this list. I also agree that it is hard to compare horse this way. I am shocked that Holy Bull and Ghostzapper are  left off of this list and I feel that Awesome Again doesnt get enough credit here. Where are the love for the fillies do fillies like Azeri and Serena's Song get even an honarable mention.

A "favorite" horse does not necessarily deserve to be on the list, just because he was a crowd favorite; there a few "favorite" horses with good reason to be on this particular list. The Bid, Cigar...a MOUNTAIN of a horse, but he gets no respect from Da Hoss, his neighbor at the KHP....John Henry, ABSOLUTELY .......but I really MUST take exception to Point Given....compared to Holy Bull, Ghostzapper, Invasor... Point Given is a nice horse with some talent, but on THIS list....nah.

Interesting question. However think about it. None of these horses are even in the same class with Cigar and John Henry. Although they were much earlier, consider also Kelso and Forego, who carried all kinds of weight and had about 12 races per year. The horses today are prima donnas by comparison. Speaking of Ghostzapper - give me a break. The horse runs only 4 times and then he gets horse of the year.

Back to your list, if Curlin wins all the rest as noted, maybe he is # 7, but if not he is not even in the top 10.

Off the top of my head of his last 2 races:

A "bonafide" G1 winner is a horse that has won at least two G1 races.

Stephen Foster -

Einstein

Dubai World Cup -

Vermilion

Premium Tap

Curlin hasn't even shown us how good he really is. Keep watching. He will prove that he is the best throughbred of modern times.

Watching Curlin win the Stephen Foster Handicap just continued to show how professional this horse is, he remains cool and collected while running inside, outside or up the middle, as soon as Robby gives him the signal he does what he does best...win. I didn't think that the 128lb posting would bother him as he had carried 132 lbs in Dubai while winning the Jaguar Trophy race, at this point 4th position is good but he is fast approaching the top 3 and those top 3 are very impressive but then so is Curlin. I would love to see him win the Arc but would hate to miss seeing him run in the Breeder's Cup but I understand the path that they are taking with Curlin, winning the Arc over beating Big Brown in the Breeder's Cup is more prestigious and carries more weight with that win. Good luck to the Curlin camp, they are doing this horse justice and the racing fans as well.

I agree with your top ten but I'd place Curlin above Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. Obviously he'll have to race another year to be on top above Cigar and Spectacular Bid and maybe that might happen. Maybe. I do recall reading somewhere that Smart Strikes offspring improve with age......I hope JJ keeps Curlin around another year, He's been sturdy, no injuries I think. Invasor had some foot problem when he was young and Ghostzapper hurt himself too. And Steve Asmussen has trained him beautifully this year.

Rating Horses based on Buyers speed figures is nuts! The breed has changed so much the last 15 years, allowance and claiming horses are faster changing the variable's these figs are based on. I too believe longevity is the number one factor in determining Greatness, but pure talent Ghostzapper was one bad racehorse his Classic was the most impressive race I've ever seen a horse run. If I could see one horse race Curlin from the last 15 years I'd take him more than anyone else.

Kelly E. Silver Charm #3???? wowwies, don't sign up to rank the BCS anytime soon, ok?? haha I agree with needler, no PG on this list. If Curlin wins the Arc he has to climb to #1.

Hey Bunksie1581

I've got love for the fillies! Azeri is probably my alltime Favorite.  I wish they'd kept her in the Distaff instead of the Classic, but much like Curlin's connections they were shooting for the moon. Also no one had any idea at that time what Ghostzapper really was, do people realize he beat 2 Dubai World Cup winners, (Pleasently Perfect, Roses In May) A Ky Derby Winner (FunnyCide) A BC Distaff Winner (Azeri) and A BC Classic Winner (Pleasently Perfect) also a young talented Perfect Drift ran 4th in that race. Ghostzapper was a Supreme Talent and I believe that was the best race in the last 15 years. As for Fillies man Zenyatta may be clsoer to Curlin than Big Brown is.

Just a comment about our beloved sport:  If we consider horse racing a truly International sport then we should have a Grand Slam like Golf and Tennis.

Tennis Grand Slam:

Wimbledon

US Open

Australian Open

French Open

Thoroughbred Horse Racing Grand Slam ???

Breeders' Cup

ARC

Japan Cup

Dubai World Cup

The quality of the competition should be the best in the world at a "Grand Slam".  The main problem with these races is the scheduling is very close.  But something should be coordinated internationally for prestigious races for 3yr olds and up so older horses can participate.

So after considering the above comments, if Curlin wins out in 2008, that puts him up there favorably on any list.

Also, can take for granted that Curlin did all he did last year without a 2 year old foundation and against a strong 3 year old class.  If he wins the Arc, I'd put him at least #2, maybe even #1 but it's hard to compare a legend 30 years in the making to what is so fresh in the mind.  Obviously, I favor versatility in my rankings.  (You gotta show up no matter what the track condition.)  At the very least above Sunday Silence, who is one of my personal favorites of all time.  Curlin and he at the this point essentially have the same record, albiet Silence won an additional Classic, but I think winning the Arc equals out to another classsic easily. I don't think American fans understand the importance of the Arc.  

Also, from what I've heard Curlin will have a test turf race in July, another American turf race (a more premier race), then go to France.   I would love for him to come back after the Arc and try the BC Turf, too.

From Paul Moran's article on ESPN

"Since  1962, when Carry Back, the Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner of the previous year, was sent to the Arc and finished 10th, no American horse of Curlin's stature has attempted this."

Helps put what Curlin is trying to do into context.  Right now he's #4-5, if he wins the Arc, #1-2.

I've seen them all run.  I agree with Spectacular Bid as #1.  Cigar was the best horse since the Bid.  But I'd have to put Curlin #2.  His time in the BC Classic and closing the last four furlings in 48 is phenomenal.  And now at 4, he is even better and winning every race in low gear, just like the bid did at 4, which was the best 4 yr. old campaign I've ever seen.  For me Curlin would have to run 1:57 for a 1 1/4 to be along side the Bid.  I'm a bigger Curlin fan, but I think if BB ran as a 4 year old he has the potential to be as good if not better than Curlin.  Go Curlin and thank you for the rare 4 year old treat.

I am a huge Sunday Silence fan, and you can't put Easy Goer ahead of him based on the Derby and Preakness.

But look at their three year old seasons....

Easy Goer:

1st in the Gotham, Swale, Travers, Belmont, JCGC, Wood and Whitney.

2nd in the Derby, Preakness and BCC

Sunday Silence:

1st in the SA Derby, San Felipe, KY Derby, Preakness, Super Derby, BCC

2nd in the Belmont.

They not only were the best three year olds that year, they also both beat older horses.

I think if Curlin wins the Arc he jumps to number 2 on the list.  That is just an unfathomable accomplishment.  If he stays unbeaten an Arc win would be his 8th straight victory on dirt and grass, and he would 15: 12-1-2.

Historically, there would be nothing to compare him to.

Also, "ART" above said Curlin didn't exactly rack up the starts, well he started 9 times as a three year old and will maybe have seven this year.  A workload Ghostzapper could never have endured.

I would put Touch Gold ahead of Point Given any day.  If he didn't go to his knees in the Preakness, he would have won two legs of a Triple Crown and the Breeders Cup Classic.

I agree with your choice only that you forgotten what Silver Charm did. He's top 5 on my list which includes the great Cigar in the 2nd spot and Skip Away on 3rd. And still, I believed that Ghostzapper is better than Curlin.

Some of the comments on this blog seem to show that many people do not really know or understand Skip Away's record of accomplishments. I have always believed that the only reason Skippy is not far and away the earnings record holder is that he did not go to Dubai. He was a "family owned horse" and the family chose to keep him in the U.S. except for a trip to Woodbine(where he won). He beat Cigar in the Jockey Club Gold Cup in 1996 at the age of three. I believe he set the current stakes record for that race in 1997. He won the Breeders' Cup Classic in 1997 while breaking that stakes record, previously set by Cigar. (Ghostzapper later broke that one.) Skippy set a NTR in the MassCap in 1998 under 130lbs. He carried at least that much weight in the Iselin as well, while winning. When he finally became HOY in 1998, it was overdue. His win in the Breeders' Cup Classic was the most visually impressive up to that time, I think. (Curlin in the slop wasn't bad, either.) I was present at Belmont in 1995 when Cigar won the Classic, but to me it was not as impressive as Skippy's in 1997. I'm sorry to rant, but Skippy had to work twice as hard to gain half the respect he deserved. Check the facts on Skippy in The Bloodhorse archives from 1996-1998. He was indeed an Iron Horse, and then some.

I agree, Ghostzapper and Invasor were great horses but dont belong on this list.

I dont see how you can rank Sunday Silence above Curlin and John Henry should be #1 followed by Cigar and Spectacular Bid.

Curlin is a special horse, as it is hard to compare to Dr. Fager to Secretariat, it is impossible to compare others. If he wins the ARC, which I mentioned on posts FAR BEFORE it was mentioned as a plan by his owners-he, would have to be put on the greats list because it has never been done before.

I might get my wish-A top US horse showing that we can go there and win-not just the other way.-Ongoing wish for years-I thought Kittens Joy could a few years back but he wasn't good on soft turf-otherwise he'd be on a top ten list as well-great on firm-one of the best.

A few omissions   to your list.

Bid would rank #1 on mine given the choices above. We have no way of telling how good Invasor was-Bernardini I would rate far before Alex Alex who was mentioned by someone (not there on the list). To a 1 1/4 Smarty Jones missing? Giant's Causeway?--Long ship-quarantine- first time dirt wasn't bad to lose a nose photo to a horse ON the list.

Candy Ride? Newbies posting probably never heard of him, SOOOO---Champion Miler in Argentina, Top Class on Dirt and Turf, Undefeated in six starts in Argentina & the United States, Won a Grade 1 race in his 2nd start, Ran a mile on turf in 1:31, Recorded the highest Beyer speed figure of 2003 (123), Set a new track record at Del Mar in the Pacific Classic (G1), with a time of 1:59 flat. Ron McAnally called him the best in the world and he ever trained, Bailey, Krone, Baffort, all said he was a freak and super special at the time-unbeatable.

Throw another in to the pot-- Makybe Diva is an Australian racehorse, and the first thoroughbred to win the prestigious Melbourne Cup three times: in 2003 and 2004, and again in 2005 when she also won the Cox Plate, Makybe Diva is the highest stakes-earner in Australasian horse-racing history, with winnings of AU$14,526,685 when she retired on 1 November 2005."The Diva" is one of only five horses to have won the Cup more than once in the 145 year history of the event. Smallish mare, but try her at 2 miles. OR doesn’t that count, because of the distance?

Very hard argument –no right answer-Dr F. was the best I ever saw in “MY OPINION” but doesn’t mean I am right no matter how hard I try to prove it-especially to Secretariat Fans (forget Damascus and Buckpasser-I would have loved to see what Bold Hour would have done to Sham and many others even on the list above-but all conjecture) Until we get time machines we will never know for sure.

Curlin IS a very good racehorse-IF and when he should win the ARC he joins my greatest list if not number 1 he still would be in rarified air.

J Miller,

Spectacular Bid:

26 races

23 wins!

Undefeated in 4 year old year

I'd have to put the Bid and John Henry as # 1 and #2; they were the last of the great weight-carriers. The younger horses would break down under the loads those two carried, which were reminescent of Kelso and Forego. I would put Cigar and his winning streak at #3; I think Curlin is on his way to earning #4, but not there yet. Maybe after the Arc de Triomphe...

I feel if Curlin runs the Arc and wins, this would rank him #1 on the list. To have won the Arc, Preakness, Breedeers Cup Classic and Dubai is one impressive resume. Not to mention, on the board finishes in the Kentucky Derby and Belmont. This would prove great versatility and durability.If Curlin would go on and win the Breeders Cup Classic for the second time, I feel he should be given consideration as the #1 of all time. If he wins the Arc,in my opinion, he will have achieved something far better than winning the triple crown. Hats off to Curlin and his handlers for giving us one of the best.

This is so interesting!  I love reading everyone's take on the ratings.  Everyone has a different idea as to who should be placed where and have even put some horses in there that weren't rated.

To think back on 30 years is very hard.  Spectacular Bid absolutely, #1.  He was incredible.  The rest is really whatever anyone thinks on their own.  All those horses mentioned were superb.  I was lucky enough to see Sunday Silence and Easy Goer race.  I can tell you it was the most exciting time for horse racing.  Those two battling it out was monumental.  I loved Sunday Silence and visited him on the backside one Saturday morning thanks to Charlie.  I love Curlin too.  I don't think we haven't seen Curlin's best yet!

think the top jockeys from the past 30 years would really differ from all of these listings. Curlin would surley be very close to the top, Tiznow, and possibly Giant's Causeway for his worldy efforts. If Curly takes the Arc he moves up.

I apologize to everyone about including Dr Fager in this list of top ten. I KNOW he came before the 30 year limit for the list, but I can't help myself.....he, Kelso, Forego and John Henry might have represented the toughest bunch of racers at any time, ever!

THAT argument, however, is for another blog. This one is about Curlin, and while he sure looks like he las the props, a win at the Arc will prove he does. Until then, we get to wander all over the place talking abut those runners that touched us.........I miss 'em, but Curlin may be able to fill the empty spot for us!

Cheers and apologies.....

I love Curlin, have since his first race.  The thing I love most about him is his guts, guts are part of what make a horse so great. Curlin has had three gut wrenching head-to-head races, against Street Sense in the Preakness, Rags to Riches and against Lawyer Ron.  He won two of them and didn't concede on the third, he still battled through the finish.  Watching those duels reminds me of Affirmed's races.  I don't know exactly where I think he ranks on this list.  Definitely in the top 5; no question.  

If his connections do retire him after this year I will be heartbroken.  He has been the most exciting horse I have seen race and gives me hope that I will see more great horses run more than 6 races in their lifetime.  They aren't even given the chance to become great.  I hope Curlin can transfer well to turf, but I would be disappointed if his last race was  on foreign soil.  

A great horse should be able to race against the best. And while some think Curlin's connections are avoiding Big Brown, Europe has some very good horses.  The maturity and experience of the horses Curlin would race against in Europe will raise his rank considerably.  I would still like to see a match up between BB and Curlin though. 

just why does everyone think big brown is a goner.. just because he

lost one race... he is still a

fantastic runner as far as i know..

and a race with curlin would be

a true test of ability for both of

them

Another thought, I think the Bid is better compared to the horses of the 70's rather than those from the 80's, 90's and this decade given the nature of his career.  He really is a horse from another era.  The others on the the list are more comparable.    

It's also hard to compare longevity with flashes of brillance.  John Henry and Cigar may not have run as long as they did if they had more "brillant" races earlier.  Yes, they had long great careers but threw in some duds that help level the playing field with the others who raced less.

If Curlin does run in the Arc and wins it, he'd have to rank right up there with Spectacular Bid for the best in the last 30 years. I remember Secretariat's connections had considered the idea of running him in the Arc at one time, but discarded it. I so hope Curlin gets the chance Big Red didn't. Top 10 lists are very subjective, but you could definitely make a case for putting Curlin fourth right now. The best horse I've seen in recent years was Invasor- what a shame he had to be retired.

i am glad curlin will skip breeders cup.i also will skip the breeders cup this year and next year.if i wager anything it will be peanuts.i dont think big brown will race in b c either.i hope all the good horses boycott this years b c.why cant they run b c at delmar,saratoga,keeneland,hialeah[i know its closed but hey its just sitting there put it to some use],alington or woodbine again.instead we get santa anita 2 years in a row.lava man should get his b c win this time.and one more thing is how could the people who vote on eclipse awards not vote barbaro three year old champion.shame on you bernardini backers.he was not undefeated on dirt and turf like barbaro.as far as this list goes every one has their favorites so there is always something to debate.

Thanks Karen in Texas, for doing my job & touting the record of my favorite grey, Skip Away.  He ran 38 times, winning 18, 16 of them graded stakes. I remember vividly his run in the TC races, his defeat of CIgar, his battles with Formal Gold & Gentleman, his weight-carrying win in the Iselin and his beautiful victory at Woodbine.  He was a running machine, and always gallant even in defeat (to Wagon Limit in the slop giving weight still hurts).  Yes, Skip Away should be in the top 5.  If Curlin wins the Arc I'll be willing to put him above Skippy.

Point Given? Why is he even on the list? He did great work as a 3 year old, but never even raced against older. To place him in the top ten with no mention of Tiznow is as miss guided as the fools who gave Point Given Tiznow's second Horse of the Year honors.

Tiznow would have beat him on the track and is beating his brains out in the breeding shed now.

Ghostzapper could have given Silver Charm 10 pds and still opened up daylight on him.

I honestly would not rank Curlin above Silver Charm or Alysheba. He's a good horse, yes, but he hasn't raced enough to be ranked above Charm or Alysheba.

You are welcome,skipaway2000! Skippy is one of the greats on any list ever. Did you see him "in person"? I saw him in 1997 during the opening weeks at Lone Star Park. The crowd was tremendous and he looked at everyone in the paddock very calmly. Even then he was what Trevor Denman later called,"a very professional racehorse."

Spectacular Bid really is unassailable as the best racehorse of the past 30 years.  He should have won the Triple Crown in 1979.  John Henry should get the second spot.

Curlin has a ways to go to reach those heights.

Actually Bid raced 30 times and won 26 of them.  He lost only once after the 1979 Belmont, the Jockey Club Gold Cup, finishing second to Affirmed.  He never lost another race.

This is my top 10.

1. Cigar

2. Sunday Silence

3. Spectacular Bid

4. John Henry

5. Barbaro

6. Alysheba

7. Smarty Jones

8. Afleet Alex

9. Curlin

10. Tiznow

Silver Charm and Point Given shouldn't Be on the list. There are other horses I can think of that are greater than Curlin. Horses Like Medaglia D'Oro, Pleasantly Perfect, Serena's Song, Ashado, and Ginger Punch. If this was a top 20. Curlin probaly be in the top 10.

I would delete a few from the list. Point Given and Alysheba were terrific horses, but you are considering the last 30 years--Seattle Slew and Affirmed need to be on the list.

So my top ten would be:

1) Seattle Slew

2) Affirmed

3) Spectacular Bid

4) John Henry

5) Cigar

6) Personal Ensign

7) Curlin

8) Easy Goer

9) Sunday Silence

10)Go For Wand

I rank Easy Goer ahead of Sunday Silence only because Easy Goer won at 1-1/2 miles, while Sunday Silence did not have that feather in his cap. Many forget just how great a horse Go For Wand was--she could sprint and win over a route. She pulled off the double of the seven furlong Test Stakes and the 1-1/4 mile Alabama, no mean feat, and then trounced her elders in the 1-1/8 mile Beldame in a clocking only a few ticks off Secretariat's world record time.

And of course, my rankings are based only if Curlin wins the Arc.

cigar was overrated he never raced against the best of his generation at three and got lucky when holy bull broke down, he would never have won 16 in a row if he had to, holy bull tiznow curlin ap indy ghostzapper candy ride, barbaro, invasor,bernardini, dubai millenium, street cry,were all better horses than cigar

Many of you are showing your age in your comments.  Curlin is without a doubt a great horse.  However, he has a ways to go to be rated ahead of Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer or Alysheba.

Your crazy to not even mention Ghostzapper who I consider one of the fastest horses of all time, there's no telling how much more he would have done had he  continued, how many of those horses beat 2 b.c. classic winners?

St.Liam, Pleasantly Perfect?

Whoa. Lets not carried away here about Curlin!  Aside from Bid, Sunday Silence and Easy Goer are clearly class of last 30 years.  First of all, if they didn't race in same year we would have 2 additional triple crown winners (Who would argue with that?).  Secondly, these two colts dominated older horses.  Furthermore, the results of the duels between these two caused the NYRA to change the dates and distances of ALL of their major races (Gotham, Wood, Woodward, Gold Cup).  I won't say Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence (lost 3 of 4) but what other horse in the last 30 years has had as much impact on the industry as him!?!  Saying all of that, Curlin lost the Derby by 8 lenghths and he lost the Belmont to a filly in 2:27.80 (And let us not forget about the Haskell).  My top five are :

1. Bid (times do not lie!!)

2. Sunday Silence (this era's Affirmed)

3. Easy Goer (Most impressive winner of Test of Champions' this era!)

4. Cigar (respect streak but not competition)

5. John Henry (modern day Kelso, Forego)

P.S.: Ghostzapper, Candy Ride were most impressive from time standpoints but didn't race enough.  Great conversation!!

There's nothing like a "top" list to get everyone excited and disagreeing! The first glaring mistake in your list is that Tiznow is not on the list while Point Given and Silver Charm are. The only two time Breeders' Cup Classic winner who defeated the greatest Europe had to offer must be on the list.

Other than that, I'd include the following, in no particular order: Spectacular Bid, Easy Goer, Sunday Silence, Cigar, Personal Ensign, Skip Away, John Henry, Alysheba. I think longevity - racing at 3 and at 4 - is just as important. If he wins the Arc, Curlin would certainly make the list.

But John Henry and Spectacular Bid would scoff at both Curlin's number of starts and at calling 128 lbs an "anchor."

If Silver Charm and Point Given are on the list, then what about Real Quiet? He was THIS CLOSE to winning the Triple Crown. And Thunder Gulch comes to mind also. And Tiznow. But Cigar will always be my #1.

Invasor  triple crown winner in his home country, 10 wins in 11 starts beat a monster in bernardini in a great bc classic field, and dubai world cup champ, and just look a his Donn win thats all you have to watch clipped heels check to the point where he was almost stopped and still won by 4, hes in the top ten i dont care, some people forget how great he was...

I'm really not sure how to rank Curlin against some of these other horses, but I don't think in his case the fewer number of career starts matters, just as it shouldn't matter with Invasor or Ghostzapper, the two best horses I've seen thus far in my five years as a racing fan. At this point in time, I'd have to put Curlin pretty close to those two, and if he wins on the grass, he'll move up. And if he wins Europe's most prestigious race, he'll move way up.

The Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe is as big as big gets.

gotta love those top tens as they sure bring the bloggers out of the wood work...will rate Curlin after his four year old season over as he has a bit more work to do...Long Live The King!!!

I watched Spectacular Bid beat everything in sight for 26 of 30 races with ease most of the time. 13 stakes races included, carrying as much as 130 pounds. He is in the Secretariat class, and with the exception of GhostZapper, the rest dont come close either on figures or class. Curlin is an exceptional horse, but the competition he faces does not compare, sadly this is not Curlin's fault as I believe he is a throwback to the iron horses of old (Kelso)and could show much more

You have to put both Ghostzapper and Tiznow on this list.  I think that these horses rank above Easy Goer, Point Given and Silver Charm.  Ghostzapper, Spectacular Bid and Cigar would via for the top honor.

Alysheba, should rank a hair over Curlin and Cigar, if for no other reason than his Super Derby, that was a field of real grade one race-horses.

He closed 23 on the field in the last 3/8.  

Curlin has proven he is the best in the world right now. I see a number of comments about a matchup with BB. If that is to happen then BB should go where Curlin goes to face him not the other way around. The champ has earned the right to race where ever his connections choose. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. It's up to the challenger to seek out the champ. Anything less and he's ducking him. Me, i'd like to see it as well. Curlin is a machine. Big Brown has potential but hasn't faced much yet. Intriguing.

Just an opinion - I think if Serena's Song had been in a different trainer's hands, she might well have been considered one of the best fillies and maybe even one of the best horses of all time.  The over training and over racing Lukas subjected her to was criminal yet she stood up to it and kept on trucking.  Remember when he entered her in the Kentucky Derby as a rabbit?  What other horse (especially a filly) could have come out of that fiasco and gone on to do what she did?  

Agree wholeheartedly with Equine Paparazzi, Tiznow raced against the world's best, TWICE, and won. Point Given? Who the heck did he beat in those 4 races? Meanwhile, Tiznow keeps producing Champions, gotta love it for Tiznow!!

Sure we're showing our age!  I've been around horse racing since 1966 and even saw Johnny Longden's last ride in the San Juan Capistrano on George Royal and he won.  I remember when there was a horse race televised every saturday and CBS during the racing season.  That was before year-round racing.  Seems to me it changed around 1970 or so to go year long.  I've seen a great many horses since 1966.

As far as ranking horses from different years, that's tough. Just because one horse has faster times doesn't mean it's the better or faster horse.  Times can vary depending on the track surface that particular day and how much the jockey or horse is pushing.  Just because a horse wins doesn't mean it gave 100%.  Also, a bunch of Grade I wins may look good, but they don't always come against Grade I competition.  I'm young, though, so some of the horses mentioned, I never saw.  I was just a baby 30 years ago.  However, I do think if Curlin were to win the Arc, he deserves the #1 spot, depending on who runs in the Arc.  There are some very good European horses right now.  To be able to travel to different continents beating whatever is thrown at you ranks above everything else for me.

A few pet peeves--

Why do people keep saying Curlin got beat by a filly like it's a bad thing?  Does no one remember how talented Rags to Riches was?  Does no one recall that she had great stamina breeding?

Speaking of Rags, why do lists like this always leave off the fillies and mares?  Many people seem to have this belief that f/m can only be considered great if they beat the boys.  I've seen many years, this one included, where I've felt the best horses racing were the f/m (with the exception of Curlin.)  Case in point:  Eight Belles, who I didn't consider as the best of the 3-year-old fillies, finished 2nd in the KY Derby.  My top 2 exciting horses to watch right now--Zenyatta and Magnificience.  Disclaimer:  My opinion on f/m may be biased and somewhat based on a "girl power" kind of thinking. :)

One last thing:  Not to take away from Cigar, he was a good horse, but would you also say that Peppers Pride deserves to be on the list.  She won 16 straight races.  Cigar is a great horse, but many of those wins came against questionable competition.  Two of those wins were in allowance races.  It is still a great accomplishment, but I don't think it ranks him 2nd.

Hey Monica V talk about a small world.I'm looking at a picture of George Royal in the 1966 San Juan Capistrano right now.I met Johnny Longden many years ago when he and his second wife did a road trip to Lethbridge,Alta.He's a home boy.He grew up in the area,and because we were involved with the racing assoc there we were invited to dinner with them.He was very fraile but his mind was still pretty sharp.Boy did he tell some good storys.I have that picture signed by him and I'll treasure it always.It was kind of neat cause I rubbed a horse by George Royal and he was one of my favs at the time.

Firstly, I love the passion of horseracing and the opinions...all of them valid!  

I think it is early to put Curlin in the top 10, but he'll definitely end up there by his retirement.  As one person mentioned, Makybe Diva has a case as does Personal Ensign and possibly Azeri or Spain.  

I think one of the best guages of "awesomeness" or "greatness" in the horses are the ones that are fast over a distance or at least have tactical speed.  This is why the 'Bid belongs at the top.  Curlin has the latter.

I think an Arc placing let alone a win would be huge.  I don't think a mile and a half is a precursor.  I think Alysheba (loved him) and Point Given and Silver Charm could be taken from the list.  I was never a fan of Skip Away, but he was a flat runner.

Stats are extremely important, and levels of competition are important.  I think Curlin had tougher competition last year than this year except maybe in Dubai.  The other thing to consider is what horses do in the race.

What comes to mind is Sunday Silence and Easy Goer in the Preakness and the Breeder's Cup Classic.  I believe the two losing efforts on Easy Goer were two of Pat Day's rides ever and exceptional races.  They both put the field away.

Ghostzapper was nice and fast...not in the top 10.  Winning Colors would be higher.  

I have merely added to the argument side, but I so appreciate our fans and their zeal and intellect on the subject.

I Agree with this list. but I will rank him 5th right now... But if he dominates turf like he did on dirt, especially if he wins the Arc and the Breders Cup Turf I will rank him on 3rd or tie second with Cigar, Cigar's record will imposible to break 16 in a row, but think about this.... Breeders cup classic, Dubai World cup, The arc and the Breeders cup Turf.. that is a good as it gets, and think about that record.. a horse winning the classic and the turf in back to back years!!

Assuming Curlin wins his last three, including the Arc>>>>>>>>>>>

Curlin is a great horse, but he won't win the Arc in my opinion-it won't even be close.

Bid is easily the top choice- anybody who thinks it should be Cigar has never watched Bid destroy numerous track records at 7/8ths of a mile, 1 1/4 miles, and twice at 1 1/8 miles and set the world record running the fastest 1 1/4 miles ever run on a dirt track, 1:57 4/5- NO WAY does Cigar rate above Bid- to do so is absurd.

I would add that Tiznow makes my cut based on strength of his competition and the results! In just his 6th start- he was put into an excellent Pacific Classic field against older horses and almost won. His winning two BC Classic races stands for itself. Also, Dance Smarty is a horse missing from the list and most people say; 'Who?'.

She showed remarkable strength going short and long- on a variety of surfaces. She beat males 4 races in a row-INCLUDING  the Canadian Triple Crown-Molson Million and won on Turf and Dirt from 6f-12f in the US and Canada.

It seems you forgot to include Affirmed since he raced in '79. If we're going back thirty years My top ten in order would be:

1) Affirmed

2) Spectacular Bid

3) John Henry

4) Sunday Silence

5) Easy Goer

6) Perrault

7) Thunder Gulch

8) Personal Ensign

9) All Along

10)Cigar

I know this list may not be perfect however it represents what I think are the unique accomplishments and versatility each horse had. If you go back one more year one could argue EXCELLER was the best of the lot since he beat Affirmed AND Seattle Slew in the '78 JC Gold Cup, won on dirt, turf and carried weight and won in different countries. Obviously AFFIRMED over SPECTACULAR BID because of their head to head battle in the '79 JC Gold Cup. JOHN HENRY carried heavy weight, took on all comers, won on dirt and turf, overcame multiple trainers & jockeys and over several seasons. SUNDAY SILENCE was 4th only because of a injury shortened career which was only enhanced in his battles with EASY GOER. EASY GOER would've been the horse of the Century had he won the triple crown in '89 with the spectacular season he had. PERRAULT would've been higher on my list since he was versatile and beat JOHN HENRY, if he didn't get hurt in the Marlboro Cup. THUNDER GULCH had an outstanding season in '95 winning two thirds of the triple crown, flying back to California, copped the Swaps S., then flew back across the country to bag the Travers, what a season! Ii had to put PERSONAL ENSIGN on the list for two reasons: one she was undefeated and two, she beat a Kentucky Derby winner over a track she didn't like at the wire. ALL ALONG simply belongs due to all the major international succes she had in '83 winning in four different countries even though I didn't particularly like her as horse of the year. I included CIGAR only because of his long winning streak, I don't hold him in such high regard as a lot of other people simply because he never carried any real substantial weight for example over 130 lbs. If anything over 130 lbs. was assigned the owners would balk at running, unlike AFFIRMED who toted 132 lbs. in the '79 Hollywood Gold Cup. I don't think anyone can put Curlin's career in proper perspective until his running is over. Just because a horse runs and wins in other countries doesn't mean their beating the best their country has to offer. How does anyone know that other countries best horses might be several notches lower than what a horse here or vice versa faces. Remember they don't train with stopwatches in Europe. I don't know how you determine how a horse worked when your only observing the workouts as opposed to timing them. Their were a couple of years the Europeans didn't send their best grass horses to run in the Arlington Million for whatever reasons. Does this diminish the victor's status? I don't know.

Concerning Tiznow he should be on the top ten list but not sure why a few have been beating up on Point Given. I'm not sure if Point Given should be on the top ten but do know that he was a very impressive racehorse and I believe would have been exceptional as a 4 year old. As for the weights that Curlin has carried do not forget that in the Jaguar Trophy race in Dubai he carried top weight of 132 lbs he is getting close to the Kelso's, Forego's and Bid's for the weight carrying. Also, in the breeding shed Tiznow and Point Given are about equal though Tiznow has now sired a classic winner Point Given is siring top stakes horses himself, give the guy his due.

Julie L. I think the reason I as well as others are beating on Point Given is the fact that he didn't race at 4, didn't come in the money in the Derby, and faced mediocre in the Haskell and Travers. Meanwhile, Tiznow beat the world's best at 3 and raced at 4 and beat the world's best yet again.  As far as the breeding shed, Tiznow has a Breeders' Cup winner and a Classic winner already, PG has none yet.

1.)Spectacular Bid

2.)John Henry

3.)Curlin

4.)Personal Ensign

5.)Easy Goer

6.)Sunday Silence

7.)Go For Wand

8.)Holy Bull

9.)Cigar

10.)Genuine Risk

 If Curlin wins the Arc he definetly wins the #1 spot.  He's extremely versatile, won Horse of the Year without a two year old foundation against an awesome crop of three year olds, got the Preakness in a gut-wrenching fourth carrer start, beat older horses decisively twice as a three year old, and has come back as an undefeated international four year old who carries weight.

 The Bid keeps the #1 no doubt right now.  

 John Henry was an awesome fighter who always brought his game with him.  

 Personal Ensign did way more than Cigar in winner thirteen-in-row against tough competition in gutsy races.

 Easy Goes and Sunday Silence are so close, but I think Easy Goer gets the nod for getting the distance in the Belmont.

 Go For Wand was amazing and probably could have been in the top 5 if she had lived longer.

 Holy Bull was tough as nails, but nowhere close to Curlin and the others mentioned.  

 Cigar was and is overrated in my opinion, he won against weak competition and wasn't too versatile.

 Genuine Risk won against the best of both sexes in the toughest races, a great filly.

 Some people were mentioning that Curlin shouldn't be considered in the top ten because he's only raced 12 times, but many people have Holy Bull on their lists and he only race 16 times.  

 It's a tough call no matter how you look at it, but Curlin's doing things horses haven't done for years and years.  He's a credit to the sport, the perfect picture of good old stamina, strength, speed and courage.  Go Curlin!!  (:

Thanks Bladerunner for pointing out that Dance Smartly was one heck of a racehorse.She's related to Curlin thru his sire Smart Strike. Samson Farms raised some top notch racehorses and they were proud to be Canadian.

If you people read the blog it said the best horses since 1979. So that doesn't include Affirmed unfortunately. And like I said Silver Charm and Point Given shouldn't Be on the list. There are other horses I can think of that are greater than Curlin. Horses Like Medaglia D'Oro, Pleasantly Perfect, Serena's Song, Lady's Secret, Ashado, and Ginger Punch.

And who ever thinks Curlin is better than The Great Cigar. Should be bound and gaged!!!!  

I always find it difficult to rank horses this way, since all those listed earned their accomplishments in different ways and under different circumstances.  I have no problem with the rankings as they stand even if I might not have listed the horses in exactly the same order.

  Emphasis SHOULD be placed on longevity.  As much as I liked Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex, a true champion shows his physical strength and heart by running under all sorts of conditions and against a variety of competition.

 I am so greatful that ONE of the good three-year-olds has been allowed to go on that perhaps I am looking at him with starry eyes but if he keeps going, he will deserve to be called "great" and certainly would be at or near the top of the list. The way he has come back from Dubai already has show his mental and physical toughness.  Go Curlin!

I have never thought that much of Cigar.  He didn't run well until he was 5 and he didn't run against the likes of Sunday Silence, Easy Goes and Alysheba.  He won 16 in a row but the races were carefully picked.  No doubt he was the best horse running at the time but who else was superior while he was running?  Tiznow's 4 year old year was plagued with back problems but those were eliminated when he took his second BC classic and is the only horse who has done so, Cigar lost his second one.  It really doesn't matter because it's all a matter of opinion anyway.  All the horses mentioned are great horses.

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were great horses as far as I am concerned.  They were retired by the owners and breeders.  The horses could have gone on and still won.  It's really a shame.

SUNDAY SILENCE AND EASY GOER ARE 1 AND 2,JUST BY TIMES INDIVIDUALLY AND COMBINED,GHOSTZAPPER SHOULD BE 3 AND CURLIN 4,SPECTACULAR BID 5(THE COMPETITION WAS FLAW AND WEEK DESPITE HIS ONE GREAT RACE) AND CIGAR 6 BECAUSE OF COMPETITION TOO. EASY GOER AT BELMONT WAS UNBEATABLE,PROBABLY ONLY SECRETARIAT COULD BEAT HIM AND THAT WAS AND IS THE TRACK OF CHAMPIONS

You guys are way off the mark about Ghostzapper. He was a speed horse but carried it to the Classic distance as evidenced by his gate-to-wire win the BC Classic in RECORD TIME.  I don't think Curlin would have wanted any part of GZ.   Bobby Frankel said that GZ was the best horse since The Bid, and that's good enough for me. If we are going back to '78 then Alydar should be on the list, over Easy Goer, Alysheba and maybe Point Given.  

I've always thought Skip Away was one of the most overrated horses in recent decades. Yes, he was good, but in my book, he was not even close to great. Lost way too many races, failed in the Triple Crown and his BC Classic win was against a weak and small, as I recall, field. He didn't lose Horse of the Year to the 2 year old, Favorite Trick, for no reason. I don't think he should even be on this list. I also don't know how one can really rate Curlin at this point since he's not through yet. What if he loses the Arc and the Classic? At the moment, I cannot argue with the first three choices, though I would have loved to see Cigar face Sunday Silence & Easy Goer on their best days as I'm not so sure he was better, but alas, we will never know. So, at this point in time I would revise the list to read Bid, Cigar, John, Sunday, Easy (even though I always thought he was better than Sunday, though the latter was more tractable), Alysheba, Curlin and while I liked Silver Charm & Point Given a lot (the latter was possibly a great one had he been given the chance to run more), the last three spots could go to any number of worthy others, however I would have to toss a number of recent prominent horses including a few Horse of the Year winners as I have little respect for horses that retire early leaving them themselves as unproven and not terribly helpful to the sport itself. Yeah, they might've been great, but they were never given the opportunity to prove it. Curlin almost fits that bill, but he's been very impressive, but should he win another BC Classic and in particular, the Arc, he would have to move on up. I'd like to add that at their best and with a clean race, I don't think anyone of these could have beaten Secretariat, Forego, Seattle Slew and even possibly Affirmed and Alydar, though I suppose the latter two are debatable, but remember the Bid could not get past Affirmed and Alydar was perhaps an inch lesser in ability.

Spectacular Bid

Holy Bull

Cigar

I rate Holy Bull as one of the best racehorses ever to race in North America. It was very unfortunate for racing that Holy Bull got injured the only time that he and Cigar met in a race. Cigar as we all know went on his record equally run and Holy Bull was retired to stud.

As for Curlin he could move in to second place behind Spectacular Bid if he wins the Arc. More often than not the Arc is run on soft/heavy ground and if Curlin can win under these conditions he will be a true great. Will he stay 12 furlongs in soft/heavy ground?

BILLY SAID,...EXCELLER was the best of the lot since he beat Affirmed AND Seattle Slew in the '78 JC Gold Cup, won on dirt, turf and carried weight and won in different countries. Obviously AFFIRMED over SPECTACULAR BID because of their head to head battle in the '79 JC Gold Cup>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Billy, you are only looking at results and not the facts of the race, nor the effort behind the picture at the end of the race. Yes- Exceller won the '78 Gold Cup by a nose- but Slew was the hero of the race as even Andy Beyer said. Slew's only defeats that year came to champions Dr Patches in a photo and Exceller in a photo. During the Fall NYRA series- he easily handled Exceller and Affirmed.  In easily beating Affirmed- Slew was only 2/5 of a second off the track record set by Secretariat.

In regards to Point Given, his failure to face older horses stands as an equal factor of consideration with the amount of Grade 1 wins! Tiznow's competition was incredible- in many races- like the Travers- Point Given's was a joke. Touch Tone? Dollar Bill? Crafty CT? Invisible Ink? LOL- those were some of his 2nd and 3rd place Grade 1 victims.  His best rival was A P Valentine, not that Valentine was a bad horse at all, but compared to the horses Tiznow beat- it isn't even close.

If we want to do a 'Grade 1' victory streak- give the award to Rags To Riches who won 4 Grade 1's in a row and then topped it all off beating Curlin and Tiago in the Belmont. Compare that to Eighty Belles who struggled her entire career and only won minor stakes- yet finished 2nd in the KD in a rather sad looking 3 yo crop.

If we are going on Grade 1 'streaks'- Rags To Riches' goes high on the list.

While I agree breeding shed comments need to be left out of the discussion, no way you can rank Point Given higher than Tiznow unless you give an extreme bias towards participation and performance in the Triple Crown. Yes Point Given has more Grade 1 wins, but that should not be all that matters (especially considering how political the grading system can be). The bottom line is that Tiznow dominated on the world's stage twice when Point Given couldn't even bother to show up. Tiznow beat old horses as a three-year-old, Point Given never raced against them. I think that if he had raced to the end of the year or as a four-year-old, Point Given might have easily been at the top of this list, but he did not.

Also Billy, Bid losing in the closing strides a mile and a half race- as a three year old, against an older Affirmed is nothing that can be held against Bid! In my opinion- as 4 year olds- Slew would have demolished Affirmed. Radar Ahead beats Affirmed several times and Radar wasn't even that good, still- as a 3 year old Slew gave Affirmed a great race that he easily could have won had it been shorter. As a 4 year old- looking at his season and comparing it to Affirmed's- it would have been a slaughter in favor of Slew.  

Jason, I was just commenting on Julie L's post about being equal in the breeding shed which they are not. As far as grade 1's? Who cares who won more, durability remember? He won the Classic at 3 and 4. If I remember correctly, PG won the SA Derby over no one but Congaree. And there was no quality in the Haskell and Travers. I don't think for a second PG was a better racer than Tiznow. Great blog though! I don't think the comments will ever end!

I am SO sick of hearing how great Curlin is!  I've been looking at stats of his and frankly, I am not impressed.  Are people seriously excited about an older horse, the reining HOTY who went on to win the DWC, carrying 128lbs?  Seriously?  He only carried two less pounds when he ran in the Derby!  That is NOT something to write home about!  Racing should be embarrassed.  This horse needs a higher impound if you want to get actual fields to run against him.  Then again, I'm willing to say the quality of this year's older horse crop is seriously questionable.  He's beating these horses with ease, yet is still unable to break 1:49 for 9f, or even the 2-minute barrier for 10f.  Maybe we should wait to rank him when he decides to prove he's more than the best of a bad bunch.

ROFL! OMG! I have laughed so hard while reading this discussion topic. Most of the posts are thoughtful and worthwhile, thankfully, but a few of you were hilarious! The people who put Spectacular Bid anywhere but FIRST on the list are just ridiculous, actually. But the person who asked "what did he do that was so special" must have been joking. And the young lady who left Spectacular Bid off of her top 10 list and said "You can't compare a horse like Curlin winning $10 million to a horse like Spectacular Bid with only a fraction of the earnings.  It is the races and the competition that matter" was beyond ridiculous and hilarious! I guess she doesn't know what has happened with the dollar, or with inflation, or with purses over the last 30 years. Maybe someone should clue her in to the fact that back in the late 70's and 80's there were no million dollar races, let alone a Dubai World Cup where the winner walks away with $3.6 million.

Spectacular Bid is, by far, the best horse to race in America from 1980-2008. I think the people I mentioned above must have been joking with us.

thing about Curlin u cant forget is that he didnt even race as a 2 year old and January or 2007. So he started 2007 unraced and ended it Horse of the Year. And if he wins his last 3 starts he will surpass the alltime money earner list and in only like 15 starts and it took Cigar 33. Taking nothing away from Cigar, he was FANTASTIC!!!! But Curlin is hands down the best of the 21st century (so far).

afleet alex

all the way

i think curlin is great, and i love all the other horses in the list, but afleet alex will always forever have the #1 spot in my heart

It is actually really hard to separate the top four outside of the number one horse, but Curlin would be in my top four as well as Spectacular Bid, Cigar, and John Henry.  

Right now, Spectacular Bid would be #1, and deservedly so...he would have beaten up any of the others on the list any day of the week.  In fact, the Bid is my number one all-time great on any list.  However, with that being said, I think that Curlin is a throw back to the great horses in the 70s.  He is the only one besides Cigar that has ever even reminded me of the dirt giants from those years.  This horse was destined for greatness when he broke his maiden last year.  And he has the chance to do something that has never been done before...the arc/classic/dubai triple.  IF he can pull this seemingly impossible feat off, he is not just an incredibly talented horse, he is a great horse, and I will second guess anyone's credibility if he is not on their all-time great list.      

Holy Bull deserves to be 5th on this list.  

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

1 SUNDAY SILENCE(CLASS)

2 EASY GOER(PAT DAY'S MISTAKES)

3 GHOSTZAPPER

4 CURLIN

5 SPECTACULAR BID

6 ALYSHEBA

7 CIGAR

8 TIZNOW

9 CANDY RIDE

10 PERSONAL ENSIGN

Point Given before Personal Ensign? You must be kidding. Other than that, I have no real issues with your placements.

all you people are crazy curlin will never race in the arc. after 1 workout on the turf he will never see it again. great turf runners have quick bursts of speed curlin in a big grinder and will never be sucessful on the turf. as for cigar he beat the horse fo the year(holy bull) the derby and belomnt winner(thubder gulch) the best mare(heavenly prize) the 2 year old champion(unbridleds song) and skip away at 10 different racetracks. And what about smarty jones he was undefeated through the preakness wasnt he?

I will let you know when Curlin breaks into the top 10.

Does no one remember a little buss saw named Smarty Jones ! He belongs in the top 10, in this persons mind !

Interesting discussion.  It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that Cigar might be a tad overrated (sorry beating up on L'Carriere and Soul of the Matter doesn't do it for me).  

I'm going to bang the drum for the most underrated horse of the last 25yrs and one I've been backing for most the last 25yrs---MANILA.

The fact that it took him until this year to make the HOF shows the bias against turf runners in the US.  Manila's 3YO season is the best of any 3YO since the Bid.  His  BC turf win was accomplished over three champions--Theatrical, Estrapade and Dancing Brave (Europe's Horse of the Century).  Cigar didn't beat three champions in his whole 16 race winning streak.  Anyone who doesn't remember feel free to go back and look at that campaign and his 4YO season which was capped by an Arlington Million win.

Speaking of turfers, I'd put LURE somewhere near the top 10.  Track record setter on the dirt and as near unbeatable at his distance as any horse on these lists.

jason,

 I think you have pretty good top ten!  I'm not sure about Point Given he was great 3-year old but his record isn't much beter than Street Sense or holy Bull.  Invasor has to be in top 10! He went 6 out of 7 in grade 1's on six different tracks! I would put him even with Curlin right now or slightly above who also has 6 grade 1 victories but 4 against older company. Thats if yau just going on race career numbers.  If going on who would beat who than Ghostzapper and Formal Gold have be  in top ten there are two of the fastest horses in last 30 years.  I'm sure if Berni would have won 2006 B.Cup he be on this list by most people I'm not sure why no love for Invasor?? I think his Donn Handicap is one of the best of this decade.

I think I just threwup in my mouth looking at the ranking by poster "DANYLSON" with Bid at #5.

Seriously folks the great Bill Shoemaker who rode some the best horses in the most clutch races ever said he Bid was the greatest horse he ever rode. He was a super powerhouse - not just a "great" horse of which he was notches above that.

Curlin's camp cried about toting 128-lbs in the Foster while Bid set two track records toting 130-lbs. Show me 1 single record Curlin has ever matched or set? He has none. While Bid in his 2nd lifetime start alone matched that track's record.

Nothing that has come to the track since he walked off even is worthy of carrying his girth.

A Grade 1 walkover, a still never matched North American dirt record for the distance, track records, stakes records, and just once ever off the board out of 30 starts. (30 26-2-1)

Cigar was a good horse, Curlin is too, along with Alysheba but it is insulting to ever utter any of them in the same peerage as Bid.

These lightly used horses of today - Curlin included - just cannot compare to a horse used 9 times at 4-yrs old with such crushing effectiveness like Bid ....  

apajax6,

Yes, Curlin only carried 2 pounds more than he did in the TC races but his competition carried 10 to 15 pounds less!  I've heard of trainers complaining if their horse carries 3 pounds more.  Curlin pulled away by 4 1/2 lengths easily giving away that much weight.  The pace was slow and why beat up Curlin when he won by 4 1/2 in a slow time.  He didn't have to do that race in 1.47

he won it in 1.49.  He can run very fast when he has to.

Wanda!

How very interesting you got to meet Johnny and go to dinner with him!  He was truly one of the all-time greats!  I can imagine how wonderful his stories were.  I met Johnny in 1972 when he came to take one of my co-workers to lunch.  She had run his ranch for him and they were still good friends.  I am so glad I had that chance.  I'll bet there aren't too many people on this board who even heard of George Royal.  I'll never forget that day and that horse was gorgeous!  Black as night!

PLEASE, IF CIGAR HAD FACED SUNDACE SILENCE OR EASY GOER, HE HAD BEEN DEFEATED, HAD ARRIVED BEHIND THEM. ACCEPT THAT BETTER THAN SUNDANCE AND THE GOER WAS THE BID, BUT NEVER CIGAR.

MY LIST:

1: THE BID

2- SUNDANCE SILENCE

3- EASY GOER

4- ALYSHEBA

5- GHOSTZAPPER

6- JOHN HENRY

7- HOLLY BULL

8- CIGAR

9- TIZNOW

10-CURLIN (AT THIS MOMENT WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON. CURLIN COULD BE THE NUMBER 1 IN DECEMBER. WATCH OUT)

Love the comments.  Concerning Big Brown, when he wins impressively against a top quality field, & is not running on STEROIDS ( a preformance enhancing drug) he can be considered a good horse but not on the sme page as any of the above mentioned horses. I felt this years Derby field was weak at best as was the Prekness field.

When I think of think of some og the GREATS of the last 30 years, I remember Lady's Secret and Bayakoa before I think of Point Given or GhostZapper.

Gary Stevens said that Silver Charm was the best racehore he ever road.

What about Fredinand?

I know this is about horses since 79',but as Bladerunner NYC pointed out,Affirmed did beat the Bid,and Seattle Slew beat Affirmed twice,so by process of elimination,Slew was better than both,but the TC Champion Affirmed should rank ahead of the Bid,by way of their head-to-head match-up..I don't think it's right that people are ranking "active" horses on the list,let them officially retire first,then we can compare them..Also,why the last 29yrs. and not 30? Me thinks you know Slew would've had the most nods,if the folks on here knew their history(no offense newbies)..anyways,here's my thoughts on this debatable topic;

I'd rank AP Indy ahead of ANY of the horses on Anyones lists.It's just unfortunate that he had problematic foot issues and were never really 100% in his short but spectacular racing career.Same goes for Slew O' Gold with foot issues,though he did race into his 4yo season AND was Champion at 3&4 yrs. old..I'd also have Tiznow high on the list because to win 2 BC Classics back-to-back is a very difficult and classy feat.Ditto goes for the Great Bayakoa,who took 2 runnings of the BC Distaff,and the "Iron Lady",Lady's Secret,Winning Colors and Genuine Risk,the latter 2 for taking the Derby ..Jason:Tiznow didn't compete in the TC races because he was a late developing 3yo,and we witnessed what happened when he got his act together.Point Given was a very good horse,but those G.1 wins are misleading,he trounced mostly G.3 types.Their killing you my man(lol)..and you also cannot dismiss some of the Best European horses that shipped over here and beat our best,including: Miesque(2 BC Mile wins),Ouija Board(2 F&M Turf wins)and Estrapade(a dominant turf distaffer)to name a few..also,I'll give Kudos to those that had short,but brilliant racing careers albeit by way of injuries(I) and/or death(D),including: Go For Wand(D),Phone Trick(I),Swale(D),Judge Smells(I),Landaluce(D),Delicate Vine(I),Shergar(was presumed kidnapped),Manila(I),Pulpit(I),Bet Twice(I),Vindication(I)and so on....(insert your choices here)...great topic as we All have our favorites.

Hey Jason,

I'm still working over my list. This is tough. The Bid on top of course and JH second.  Since '79 there have been a lot of nice horses.

Maybe your next column can be on trainers.  That should get some interest.

This is easy, Curlin is a great consistent horse with an admirable high-weight carrying capacity and strong legs, who has won éclat important races, but whose heavyweight  achievements have been boosted to super-heavyweight proportions by his well-deserved, albeit inflated earnings. But this is not his fault. It is a new pattern to be seen during the 21st century. I think that, most probably, his greatness will be seen in the future as an important broodmare sire. He is like a mix of achievements between Silver Charm (important races), Skip Away (earnings) and hopefully, Discovery (stallion).

Thanks, Jason, for posting this list and sparking such a discussion.  I, for one, agree with your rankings. I've been following horse racing seriously since 1991, and Cigar is the best American horse I have seen in that time.  However, reading about The Bid's accomplishments, one cannot complain about his being rated in the top spot.

If Curlin can manage to win the Arc, he should catapult to near the top of the list, if not into the top spot itself.  A lot of the readers are underestimating what a monumental accomplishment this would be, especially for a horse who also won the DWC and BC Classic, along with one leg of the Triple Crown and in-the-money finishes in the other two legs.  The Arc *always* has a very large field, and there are never any "non-winners-of-two" types entered.

For those who have been arguing in favor of Ghostzapper because of his stupendous Beyer Speed Figures, I will bring up the name of another horse whom I am very surprised has not been mentioned yet:  Formal Gold.  I'm not saying that he should be on the top-ten list because his overall record and accomplishments are very good, but not legendary.  However, I offer these facts for consideration:  (1) In the first start of his life, he scored a 112 Beyer. (2) In 16 lifetime starts, he had 15 triple-digit Beyers, along with a 99. (3) He raced six times as a five-year-old, and in those six races, his Beyers were 122, 113, 115, 126, 124, and 125; and in his final three starts, he defeated Skip Away by 6-1/2, 5-1/2, and 5-1/2 lengths.  Unfortunately, Formal Gold was seriously injured while training for the 1997 BC Classic and was retired.  Again, I do not believe that he accomplished enough to be on a "top ten" list, but he was on the verge of superstardom before he was injured, and I thought his name should at least be mentioned.

And finally, the posters who have asserted that Cigar "never ran against anything" should do some research.  During his 16-race win streak, he notched 10 Grade 1 wins, along with the inaugural Dubai World Cup (which was ungraded at the time since it had never been run before).  There are names such as Devil His Due, Best Pal, Louis Quatorze, and Concern behind Cigar's on his past performances.  Criticism for his not having run in the Triple Crown is unwarranted, because the first two starts of his career were on February 21 and May 9 of his 3-year-old season.  And early in his career he finished second and third in two Grade 3 turf stakes, so it is not like he was absolutely awful on the grass.  I suspect that the majority of the people who are questioning his place on the list were not following racing when Cigar was running (similar to the few negative comments about The Bid, whom I never had the pleasure of seeing race).

My apologies for the long post, but I have "lurked" on these blogs for long enough without contributing.

Thanks so much for the good work and for allowing us fans to express ourselves!

Lisa, Personal Ensign was a nice filly, but if you really want to look at her two greatest races, one was the Whitney- a 3 horse field, Gulch gave her 7 lbs and was finished after a mile in 1:35 and change in the slop (Make note that Gulch only won once in his career over a mile)- King's Swan was 8 years old and clearly disliked the footing and was distanced. She ran a great race to win by a nose against Lady's Secret- make no mistake- a great filly, but I would take Rags To Riches 5 straight Grade 1 wins peaking with the Belmont Stakes win over the amazing Curlin, or Dance Smartly. If you love Personal Ensign- Dance Smartly should be at the top of your lists since she beats MALES 4 TIMES IN A ROW IN MAJOR STAKES winning the Canadian Triple Crown- she also defeated one of the best Turf fields assembled that year in any one race in the Molson Million. When it was over- Day himself said she was the best filly he had ever rode- and one of the best horses period.    

Spectacular Bid was the best dirt horse i've seen from 7f to a mile and a quarter--he lost twice at 1 1/2.   John Henry was the toughest old pro i've ever seen on dirt and grass at the classic distances. He was a true stayer and carried weight. I throw out all the three year olds on the list who raced only against immature three year olds of their generation.

Hey Jason

I think you'll have to revise your list if Curlin wins his last three, including the Arc.  You'll have to place him first.

Cigar couldn't turf, remember...that's how he wound up on the dirt.

Spectacular Bid...yes, a great horse...got beat in the Belmont for several reasons, but I don't remember any great turf races he won.  I can't remember if he even saw the grass...other than to eat it.

If Curlin wins the Arc, it means he'll have won the most prestigious Group 1 race in Europe (on turf) and the Group 1 Breeders' Cup Classic, a dirt race we try to imply is the season's end championship test in North America.

When was the last time a North America-based horse went to Europe and won a major race on turf?

In fact, other than Kelso and Secretariat, I can't recall any other champions who won such important stakes on both turf and dirt...and that was on this continent!

Can you?

I love the list you presented. I'm a huge curlin fan, I love Holy Bull, I love Cigar. I love every horse on your list. However here's the Things to consider: 1.) In my Opinion, Curlin received his Horse of The Year title, beating, in my opinion a really talented crop. Cigar, as well, very talented horses. Curlin didnt need as many races to get to his earnings, therefore winning more lucrative races. Please watch the Stephen Foster from last weekend. He basically showed everyone you cant box me, you cant beat me, just enjoy the view of the backside, and maybe you'll finish second, just dont try getting within 5 lengths to me. Sorry i know i rambled....And probably repeated a lot of ya. thanks for the list, and reading my opinion. Again, to construct this list, one must consider the competition of the crops.

1. Cigar

2. Curlin

3. Tiznow

4. John Henry

5. Point Given

6. Spectacular Bid

7. Alysheba

8. Silver Charm

9. Ghostzapper

10. Skip Away

Cigar is the easily the best horse of the last 30 years. 16 graded wins in a row, enough said. If Curlin goes into the Arc and wins that race, he'll leapfrog Cigar in my eyes. Tiznow, two straight Breeders Cup Classic victories, as tenacious as they get. John Henry in my opinion was the best horse who ran on the dirt or turf. Lava Man is a cheap version of him. Point Given may be one of the biggest horses I've ever seen right in front of me and one of the most talented. A sheer beast, nothing more said. Spectacular Bid was awesome, and probably deserves to be ranked higher, but I've only seen a few of his races.  Alysheba was as beautiful as a horse can be. That horse did everything right, what a talent. When I think of Silver Charm, the first word that comes to mind is guts! If this horse saw another horse, he would never let it get by. A true warrior. I watched his first race at Del Mar, the day Cigar lost to Dare and Go, and Silver Charm got second as well to Deeds Not Words.

Ghostzapper is perhaps one the fastest horses you will ever see run a mile and quarter. Pure speed and stamina, what a monster. Too bad he never got to race again after his BCC romp. Skip Away was the beast from the east and when he came to Hollywood Park in 97 for the Classic, I remember turning to a friend and saying 8/5 with this horse is the easiest money of the day. And we proceeded to hammer him large at the windows. Old Skip Away, never let us down either. It seemed like he won by 10 lengths that day. He beat Cigar, although Mott's horse was a three legged animal that day. But still, Skip Away is second on the all-time money list.

1. Spectacular Bid

2. Ghostzapper

And then a couple lengths back...

3. Cigar

4. Invasor

5. Tiznow

6. Sunday Silence

7. Easy Goer

8. Mineshaft

9. Candy Ride

10. Curlin

Curlin is a great horse and should be at least ranked # 3.

He should also run good on turf because of his sire ( English Cannell is also by Smart Strike).

Here are my top 10 for the past 30 years:

 1) Spectacular Bid

 2) Affirmed

 3) Curlin

 4) Invasor

 5) Sunday Silence

 6) Cigar

 8) Ghostzapper

 9) Criminal Type

 10)Smarty Jones

4th fastest belmont EVER,who? PG! BRILLIANT HORSE WHO WOULD HAVE TAKEN TIZNOW TO SCHOOL! THE BID IS TOP FIVE EVER! GHOSTZAPPER IS TOP TEN EVER! PETA STAY OUT OF THE WAY BEFORE YOU GET RUN OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

Ya know, if you asked people this question at the end of 2004, Smarty Jones would be on many lists.  He's not on any of them, from what I've seen.  People will often go by "what have you done for me lately?"  That's why you see so many people ranking Curlin so highly.

Why no love for the best filly of our time, Ouija Board ? Seven G1 Wins. Raced from 2 - 5 years old all over the world against top competition.  Three Breeders Cup starts: 2 wins, one second.  

I personally loved Point Given; but realize that he's not one of the last 30 years' 10 best.  Didn't beat older horses and didn't race past the middle of his three year old season.

My Top 10:

1) Spectacular Bid

2) Affirmed

3) Sunday Silence

4) Ghostzapper

5) Ouija Board

6) Cigar

7) Invasor

8) Tiznow

9) Personal Ensign

10) Alysheba

Justahunch, I'd have to seriously disagree with your Skip Away comments. Losing a few races is what happens when you dance every dance, run 12 times a year and compete against the strongest crop of older handicap males in the last 30 years. The list of horses Skip Away beat (Cigar, Formal Gold, Gentlemen, etc) is stronger than anyone else being discussed here, and he ran 2 of the top 4 mile and a quarter times run by any of the horses mentioned. Anyone who ranks Tiznow, Curlin, Point Given or Silver Charm over Skip Away needs to be banned from ever watching racing again.

Curlin just ran the 12th race of his career... Skip Away's 12th race was the Belmont Stakes! Skip Away won 10 OPEN G1 races in North America - more than Silver Charm, Point Given, Tiznow and Curlin COMBINED. COMBINED! Skip Away's 2nd fastest 1 1/4 mile time was faster than the fastest time any of those four ever ran.

He won more G1s than they did, he ran faster than they did, he ran more often than they did... I don't know what else you could possibly want. Skip Away just towers over those four.

The fact that Spectacular Bid is #1 is inarguable. I'm fine with putting Cigar at #2 (even though it's not my personal preference), he's certainly got a strong enough case. No matter how you measure the rest, Skip Away is in the top 5 - WAY above Curlin, Tiznow, Silver Charm, or Point Given (or Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, or any of those other Triple Crown misses).

Jason,

This is a VERY nice list of horses you have and pretty properly selected and placed :) All though I may suggest placing Curlin higher based on the level of competition, his ease in winning and the versatility to run long and short, overseas and fast track and muddy....if he can do well on the turf and synthetic, hate to say this cuz i love The Bidder Boy but he should bump to number 1.....Glad you got Pointer in there, I know some ppl think he didnt race against much but would they have said the same about Secretariat if he had raced against the same field but displayed what he did none the less? You know what I mean, not comparing Pointer to Big Red ANY DAY just saying you can't be to hard on a horse that was undeniably talented. I may suggest for a minute to put Smarty Jones in there, he only lost one race and beat a hell of alotta good horses, all tho I know he didnt race at 4 and not after the Belmont, its not his fault or his choice, he was fast and really did carry it because he almost won the Belmont except I think Elliot over rode the little fellow and he got challenged to early by horses twice his size (RHT and Eddington) and he beat Birdstone, TCE and Lion Heart, thats a really nice field of 3 yr olds. Any how, thanks for this great list, oh and where is my girl Azeri???? That was one heck of a filly, I wish they retired her before transfering her to Wayne....he ruined her rep to be honest ugh overaced. And oh not in the top ten but definitley notable horses: Lost In The God, Afleet Alex, Empire Maker, BARBARO, Rock of Gibralter, Giant's Causeway and Leroidesanimaux. :)

I saw 'Bid in person and have never seen better--and I think Easy Goer is the 2nd best since Bid, I really think he was--no way can you sell me on Ghostzapper at 1 1/4--his BC Classic was run on no pace as his stable mate (not entry mate) Roses In May just took back and never challenged--and they finished like that--no, but I'd put Tiznow in there, just because he dominated at 1 1/4 mi and he beat Giant's Causeway whom I'd ALSO consider as one of the ten best--that's right, look him up...and, yes, because Curlin is DOING it at four--like so many who didn't--and is getting better and better--I'd rank him right up there as well, and of course John Henry, perhaps Invasor? But, no doubt, there are TWO such horses that can be mentioned--don't forget The Derby winner....

apajax6 - right on the money about the "what have you done for me lately" syndrome. Curlin's the best horse in training right now, but he would've gotten squashed by Sunday Silence or Easy Goer, not to mention others.

If you put the ten best in one field Spectacular Bid would probably be near even money--no joke--only Secretariat would be favored over 'Bid at 1 1/4 miles and I'd be lickin' my chops!! No joke--I'd key him on top, then try to beat the 6-1 co--second choices--Cigar (overbet) and Skip Away (ditto that)--I'd hope for 3/2 on Bid then throw in Tiznow at a juicy 25/1 and maybe Invasor at 25/1 and hope my super-longshot Giant's Causeway draws in!!!! he's 50/1 on the morning line and I like what I see....

OK you cannot leave out Skip Away on your tickets--he really battled and he did it vs good ones--as did the very underrated Criminal Type for D Wayne.....

I would take from that list ALYSHEBA and SILVER CHARM , and add GHOSTZAPPER and TIZNOW ,Also to mention that CIGAR like JOHN HENRY were HANDICAP horses and champios at late age . Anyone can say who was best and rank them in any position because all of them were similar EXCEPTIONAL HORSES, all with the UPS and DOWNS. Also take out the gelding JOHN HENRY and add BARBARO a undefeated horse , one of BESTof all times . And what about BIG BROWN , just because a bad race , he did not enter in that group of super horses , for me , he is a better horse than SKIP AWay

I love this blog as well, thank you!

There is no question about the the number one horse on your list. I wil respect the ones you have chosen as it is your blog, but the number one horse is a tie..

The Bid and The Old Man. Hands down.

That being said, Curlin has earned my undying respect after his last two races. If he wins The Arc, there will be nothing more to say about him, anywhere, ever in terms of is he great. Greatness happens in moments, they may be once in a life time, or they may be the lifetime..whichever it is, it just IS. Curlin was great in the Preakness, he was even greater in the Belmont, he was great overseas, and he was great when he came home. Curlin shows up everytime he runs..just like the rest on your list. Is he one of thee greatest? Now thats just a matter of opinion isn't it? But he finally broke through my "yeah, he's ok" to "dang, that horse is really legit". Let's promote our sport,(while we still have a horse to do so) and get on the Curlin band wagon..Just my opinion

What about AP Indy and Tiznow.

I deff ment Lost in the FOG not god haha a NYer....I talk 2 fast and type even faster haha. Oh boy....Yeah Smarty and Barbaro should be up there

I can't believe how many people are leaving out Holy Bull. The best thing to happen to Cigar was HB's retirement.

1. Spectacular Bid

2. Holy Bull

3. Dubai Millennium

4. Skip Away

5. Invasor

6. Cigar

7. Personal Ensign

8. Ghostzapper

9. Sunday Silence

10. Easy Goer

Also would like to add three additional horses to my list Genuine Risk, Winning Colors, and Rages to Riches

Okay, more thinking and I think I've got my list!

(1) Spectacular Bid

(2) Cigar

(3) Easy Goer

(4) Sunday Silence

(5) John Henry

(6) Skip Away

(7) Alysheba

(8) Personal Ensign

(9) Tiznow

(10) Invasor

Curlin could jump as high as #8, but currently doesn't rank. As someone else pointed out about Smarty Jones, most of the time it's a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Let Curlin finish out his career and let the dust settle, then judge the totality.

To the person who said he was "SO sick of hearing how great Curlin is,", remember, he beat older horses last year in the JCGC, and BC Classic, and one of those horses, Lawyer Ron, was a champion. Curlin then was HOTY as a three-year-old, then when he turned four, ran in Dubai's Jaguar prep, under 132 pounds, then the DWC under 126, I believe it was. He ran without any medication to.

You don't have to call him a great horse just yet if you don't want to; however, if Curlin isn't great now, he is as close to being great as a horse can get. Wins in a few turf races, and at least a respectable showing in the Arc, will put him over.

OK folks,

Looks like there are many good arguments on this discussion page for which horse is better than another.  How about an objective points system?

Grade 1 Win = 1 + # of Grade one winners beaten in the race.

International Grade 1 Win = 1 + # of Grade one winners beaten in the race.

Special Races:

Breeders' Cup Classic (Dirt or Turf) Win = 7 points (no extra points)

Breeders' Cup Classic (Dirt or Turf) Place = 3 points (no extra points)

Dubai World Cup Win = 7 points (no extra points)

Dubai World Cup Place = 3 points (no extra points)

Arc Win = 7 points (no extra points)

Arc Place = 3 points (no extra points)

Japan Cup Win = 7 points (no extra points)

Japan Cup Place = 3 points (no extra points)

NOTE:  The Breeders' Cup has only been around since 1984 and Dubai World Cup since 1996 so horses prior to these years are at a disadvantage but I'm sure we can take that into consideration when ranking.  Also, obviously no horses mentioned so far in this discussion board have won the Arc or Japan.  I included them just in case Curlin goes on to win one or both of these.

I am not calculating every horse's points here.  If you have a favorite you can do the research and post your points and others will be encouraged to post their favorites.  This sounds pretty objective.

Sorry folks:  Since we are talking about the best of the best horses, Grade 2 and 3 races are not worth discussing.

Monica V the little George Royal I rubbed was dark\brown almost black.

his name was Super Orange and I remember he loved cookies! Don't remember what kind but I'd get heck from the trainers wife cause they were for the staff at the break.Guys all time greats mean just that.There's going to be somebody off the list.To say that this horse would beat that horse from 10 years ago doesn't hold water.Apples and oranges.Like Jason says it's their body of work. Of course some of them hooked easier,better tracks etc.The fact remains that today we have a horse that has beaten his competion very easily. He has been doing it since last may.You have to realize that it's hard to keep them going and in one piece for that long and at that level.I say lets take it for what it is and go along for the ride.

I pretty much agree with your list with the exception of a couple of the picks. The first 2 I agree with. I am a big Cigar fan. And its not because of the 16 straight wins. Its how he did it. He won the Donn twice, the MassCap twice and the Woodward twice, the NYRA Mile, the Oaklawn Handicap, the Pimlico Special, the Hollywood Gold Cup, the Jockey Club Gold Cup, Breeders Cup Classic and Dubia World Cup and almost won a second Jockey Club Gold Cup and Breeders Cup Classic. I see a few people seemed outraged that Ghostzapper was not included. Hate to say it, yes he was fast, but he didnt really accomplish much. His Breeders Cup Classic win was impressive, but not too many people knew about him up to that point and they werent even sure if he would be able to get the mile and a quarter distance. He had the talent, but greatness is not based on speed figures. I saw a few people mention Skip Away. Skip Away was indeed a iron horse. A throwback horse. Yes he beat Cigar but Cigar would have beaten him had he not been far back early. And still he still finished strong to come up a head short. I dont know if I can put Skip Away ahead of Sunday Silence. Someone also mentioned that Sunday Silence lost to Criminal Type a couple of times. It was only once and that was in the 1990 Hollywood Gold Cup. Sunday Silence only raced 3 times his 4 year old campaign before getting injured. Where Sunday Silence is, Easy Goer cant be too far behind. His 3 year old campaign was impressive. But just like his old rival, got off to a slow start in his 4 year old campaign and also got injured. I like Silver Charm alot, but I would have to replace him with Holy Bull. Take nothing away from Curlin, but today's races have higher purses. I have more respect for how Cigar and Skip Away did it, and even more respect for respect for John Henry and Alysheba on how they earned thiers. If he can win the ARC then he could be considered better then Cigar since Cigar hated turf, but I saw his turf races, they were actually were not bad. Looked like a winner in a few of them. But based on what Curlin has done so far, he deserves to be mentioned among those mentioned.

my list would be the following:

Spectacular Bid

Cigar

John Henry

Skip Away

Sunday Silence

Easy Goer  

Alysheba

Holy Bull

Curlin

Point Given

Curlin is going to have to do alittle more b4 i can put him ahead of some of those horses.

But these horses deserve some recognition too

Criminal Type

Silver Charm

Tiznow

Black Tie Affair

Ferdinad

Lure

HouseBuster

A.P. Indy

Best Pal

Gentlemen

Formal Gold

i didnt forget the fillies, heres my list of the past 30 years

Go For Wand

SilverBulletDay

Personal Ensign

Heavenly Prize

Winning Colors

Safely Kept

Dance Smartly

Riboletta

Meadow Star

Lite Light

Paseana

Bayakoa

Genuine Risk

HMMM, the best race horse in the past 30 years. Obviously this is very subjective. Spectacular Bid was one of the all time greats and I have been around horse racing for 50 years. Lets not forget anice little European colt named "Dubai Milenium". Most great European horses do not get the North American pub. On this list should include Ghostzapper, Candy Ride, John Henry, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer,Holy Bull,Point Given, and perhaps Personal Ensign. Seattle Slew won the Triple Crown 31 years ago. Lets see what Curlin does the rest of the year but he truly a remarkable animal. He is by far the best horse running today. My all time greats would include the great Dr. Fager, Citation, Man O' War, Swaps, Damascus, Count Fleet, Native Dancer, Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew , and my all time top female horse Ruffian.  

Just wanted to say, how much i have enjoyed reading everyone's comments, for me it's awesome to see how much information is known about all these great horse's.

Personal Ensign first, the rest I can live with if not agree with

I think Point Given is underappreciated in your rankings. I grant that he loses points for not racing past 3; and even not into the Championships at 3.  So, if you are looking at the body of work, I guess I could agree.  But in terms of talent, i think he should be higer up on the list.

Ghostzapper belongs but Skip Away does not.  He's the most overrated horse of the last 30 years.  Formal Gold was every bit as good as Skip Away and he's never mentioned.

Hey Curlin naysayers, give him a break. He's just now starting to roll. And why run him on turf? Is it the money? The competition? An ego trip? Or maybe dodging synthetic? If your'e going to try him on turf why not the fake stuff?                I know that my blog is off the subject so forgive me. But searching for answers. Anyway, I just hope he runs at 5 to prove to the world that he would be the best thoroghbred to step on a track. Hey owners, please keep him runnin' the industry needs him.

From 6 1/2fur to 1 1/4mi 'Bid was 26 for 26--his only losses were in 2yo sprints as well as the two 1 1/2 mi races at Belmont--one was the "safety pin race" the other was by 3/4 to Affirmed at scale weights---Affirmed ducked Bid in The Marlboro Cub at HANDICAP weights--(Bid won by five)--I don't fault a horse for not winning at 1 1/2 miles ON DIRT-I don't think Affirmed or Seattle Slew could've beaten him at 1 1/4 but think Slew would've been closer...and, yes, Thunder Gulch and AP Indy deserve mention...the point is, Curlin is a real good horse, and I believe Big Brown just may be the best since Bid, I really do--not based on competition, just based on his acceleration--"Bid like" I'd call it---it was a good thing Bid was obscurely bred, otherwise HE may have gone early to the breeding shed--but his owners get a lot of credit for racing him--thank you Mr/Mrs Harry Meyerhoff!

what about Holy Bull???  He dusted older in the woodward and was obviously in the same class as these, if not better than many.

Again to stir the pot------and you can verify these statements with a little research-I just remember them.

Ron McAnally-definitely said CANDY RIDE was the best horse he ever trained. this was "after" JOHN HENRY.

Gary Stevens whether I think he was drinking his bath water of not---ON MANY OCCASIONS---said ROCK HARD TEN--was the best horse he ever rode-(the others were retired and he may have been living in the moment as many do)if that is true Silver Charm and Point Given take a  serious beating----again, even though this statement is a fact-----he couldn't be serious-could he???????

Put Candy Ride on the list wherever, but don't omit him.

Not sure about time span between races, but what if Curlin was to win The Arc de Triumph and BC Classic this year??  I think that would be an amazing accomplishment that would put him at the top of the list.

Another horse to be consider in the top 10 has to be INVASOR.  The way he beat Bernardini in the Classic was a top performance.  I really think this horse could match against any of the horses in the list.  Another horse who did not ran many times but was on a league of his own was Candy Ride.  He destroyed such a great horse like Medaglia d’ Oro in the Pacific Classic.

Just have to comment to some naysayers about Curlin's possible grass race.Guys the horse has grass breeding.His sire has a runner named English Channel who win the BC Turf.He's got the breeding for grass on both sides. As for the comment that grass horses close fast,yes they do because their trained that way.I seem to remember a horse called Bucks Boy winning the BC Turf wire to wire in fact he won all his races that way.If I was training Curlin I wouldn't be to worried about that cause he's got a huge turn of foot and the rider can make the call on where to use it.So I disagree with the blogger that said he is a plodder.What I've seen so far when he gets asked he moves into another gear pretty quick.

Thank you to TheDman for further venerating Skip Away and his career! Yes, he danced EVERY dance. As I said in my comment (on the 18th) he had to work twice as hard to gain half the respect he deserved. A horse couldn't do more than he did. Thanks again.

Can't believe how many people still insist that Easy Goer was better than Sunday Silence. Silence beat him 3 out of 4. You can make excuses maybe for won race but when you have to make them for 3 out of 4, you're a sore loser. Sunday Silence was more tractable and had more heart in a dog fight. Better horse hands down.

Ohh, and for those who say EG got the job done at 1 1/2 mi.  Well, he didn't get it done at 1 1/4/ and 1 3/16 against SS, so why is that one score at 1 1/2 better.

I also on a more cordial note can't beleive this is still being debated almost 20 years later.  

But if Curlin does well in turf that's a dimension neither of those two had.  Also, Curlin did tie the stakes time in the Preakness.  And was close on the off track in the BC Classic to the track record I believe.  (For the poster who mentioned that Curlin has never done anything w/ regard to time.)

This has been really interesting.  It's great to see everyone's take on the top 10 of the last 30 years.

One thing that has been mentioned is that some of these horses didn't race enough.  Well, that isn't their fault, it is the trend now.  Secretariat raced 7 times as a 2 year old!!!  Spectacular Bid raced 26 times!!!  Horses running today do not race that much.  Many of our best 3 year olds are retired to stud.  Most horses improve as 4 year olds because they have matured.  Secretariat just kept getting better.  Imagine what he would have been at 4!  What would AP Indy have been at 4 or Smarty Jones?  I hope this trend of retiring 3 year olds stops.  It's so exciting to go see a horse race who has been racing for a while and established himself. That doesn't happen much anymore.  

You also can't compare earnings.  The Bid certainly hasn't earned as much as Curlin but there were no Breeders cup races back then and no million dollar races or a DWC! Just think about what an incredible accomplishment it was for John Henry to have been the first thoroughbred to ever when 5 million!!!! And that was 1984!

Great blog!

Hey, Whistler, know what you're talking about before you comment.  The steroids Big Brown takes are not "performance enhancing" drugs.  It's not the same as in people.  You'd be surprised how many horses run on the same type of steroid Big Brown takes.  It does not make a horse great.  If that was the case, trainers would have entire barns full of great horses.  Vets have already told the general public on tv that the steroid Big Brown is given only helps keep his appetite up, etc.  But no one seems to listen.  People are hating on Big Brown cause they don't like his trainer, or his owners, or because he lost one race.  Who cares about his trainer or owners?  The horse is what's important!  And losing one race doesn't erase the other 5 races he won by miles!  Horses are not machines.  Anyone who works with animals knows that sometimes, for reasons you may never know, they decide to do things that humble you fast.  Big Brown will be back and he will show all the haters that he is the real deal.  I only wish he would race as a 4 yr old so we can see just how great he could be.  But I know that the public and Big Brown won't have that chance.  I do hope to see Big Brown and Curlin face off before the year is over.  As for Curlin, he's a very good horse but I'm not sure if he's up there with the greats of the last 30 years just yet.  The greats proved themselves over and over again under all kinds of circumstances.  Curlin is not there yet.  And if we're talking top race horses of all time, he'd be way down the list.

There is simply no horse that I know of that can compare to Spectacular Bid at 2, 3, and 4 except Seattle Slew. Slew misses the 30 years cut off, so to Jaybee.....In regards to you asking the questions as to champions that have won on turf and dirt other than Kelso and Secretariat....you asked- who?

LOL- Lava Man, Dance Smartly, Cougar II, John Henry- there are MANY HORSES that fit the question you asked- can you even compare Curlin to John Henry or Cougar II- HELL NO!

On the dirt he TWICE won the Santa Anita Handicap,as well as the JCGC. On the Turf-  the Arlington Million twice. From Nov '80 to Nov of '81, he ran in eight grade 1 races, one grade 2 and one grade 3-ranging from turf to dirt- he won 7 of the Grade 1 races and one of the grade 2 races- how I ask you does Curlin compare to that?????

He set track records at Golden Gate, Meadowlands, Santa Anita,Bay Meadows. Three of his final four races were grade 1 wins- he beat the likes of Desert Wine, Royal Heroine, Gato Del Sol, Majesty's Prince, Nijinsky's Secret.

I like Curlin- but I would never place him above John Henry-even if he won the Arc- AND HE WONT!

To 'Point Chance' who said that Point Given would take Tiznow to school- LMAO!!!!!!! I had this debate long ago- the same that was true then is still true now- Point Given's grade 1 victims were the likes of Touch Tone, Dollar Bill, Invisible Ink, Congaree, Crafty CT, Love Silver.....never raced against older horses.....LOL- I agree PG was a good horse, but the quality of the races, as well as what he attempted is nothing compared to Tiznow.

As a matter of fact, there was talk about him running in the Whitney, but there was no confidence. Salman wanted an easy win to dedicate to his brother, Prince Fahd Salman, who had died the month before. It would have been nice to see him run in that race and actually be tested- in my opinion- PG would have been lucky to get third- instead he beats E Dubai in a weak field- as a matter of fact- E Dubai had never even run in a race that long in his career.

For all the Skip Away fans do you know he ran "clean" in most of his races? I think I read somewhere that Hines gave him Bute once.What's amazing about him is that he showed up with his game face on at every track he ran at.No excuse about surface,temp etc.He was managed properly from day one and I believe it's because the owner(his wife) left him alone to make all the right decisions.That's huge people cause you always have unrealistic owners that think they can read a condition book better than you can. I also think he is underrated as a sire cause he doesn't get the real top top mares.They should breed to him,number one because he's an outcross and number two he was a sound top notch racehorse.

I've never been big on lists. Every horse in your top ten was remarkable in his own right.  But to me no horse will ever compare to John Henry.  To run at the top level of the sport at nine years old is something we will probably never see again.  As Joe Hirsch so aptly described him, "John Henry was the most remarkable horse to ever race anywhere".  

And please don't forget the ladies.  How can you overlook Ruffian?

When I read that Frankel and Ramsays agreed that Roses In May should not challenge Ghostzapper in The BC Classic, I thought Frankel had pulled a fast one on the Ramsays--also The Jockey Club should've looked into that--we'll never know about Ghostzapper getting 1 1/4 cuz his (awesome) Classic was run on no pace--he had a six furlong race with a two length head start---NO WAY do I put him up there with the 1 1/4 GIANTS---The Bid, Sunday Silence/Easy Goer, Alysheba, John Henry, Tiznow, CURLIN, Skip Away, the great Cigar, AP Indy, Point Given, Criminal Type, Mineshaft, Invasor, Giants Causeway---those you KNOW were true 1 1/4 horses---who remembers Swale? or Pleasant Colony? The freakish Risen Star?....How 'bout Conquistador Cielo's ROMPING Met Mile (v older) and Belmont double for a freak? But Bill Shoemaker on Bid--say no more! The Shoe rode Gallant Man, Round Table, Ack Ack--and freakin' SWAPS---but Bid was the one and the only one at the top of Shoe's list---that's why it's so good right now: that we're even talking about (possibly) two of the best who are in training RIGHT NOW!! Thanks for the first rate blog and thanks to the bloggers, most of whom are all class...

To BladerunnerNYC: I know Seattle Slew handled Exceller in the woodward s., I also know Affirmed's saddle slipped and Cordero lost an iron briefly going into the first turn of the '78 JC Gold cup however this doesn't change the outcome of the race and the finish is all that matters. I am stating facts not what if's. Losing by a nose is as good as a mile in horse racing, it's all about class. A loss is still a loss. This being said EXCELLER is still the ONLY horse to EVER beat TWO triple crown winners in the same race at the same time! This no one can deny. Exceller also won at a mile and three quarters on turf, something neither triple crown winner ever did. I do agree that Seattle Slew was better than Affirmed slipped saddle or not. I also believe if you ran the '79 JC Gold cup ten times, Affirmed would win ten times over the 'Bid.' After all a mile and a half is the true 'Test of a Champion' In regards to your statment that no horse was ever better at two three or four than Seatle Slew or Spectacular Bid. I also disagree, I never saw a horse with a more dominant two year old season than Devil's Bag. Devil's Bag was Undefeated at two, broke the Champagne stakes record under wraps, the Cowdin S., the Laurel futurity barely being hit with the whip, c'mon you gotta be kiddin' me.

As for "Harry" who said he thought John Henry was the best horse he ever saw with his versatility, truly a solid choice however I don't know if you ever saw Exceller run, he was truly an astounding horse. If you look at Exceller's record of '78 he won 7 of 10 starts, on turf and dirt up to a mile and three quarters, the ONLY horse EVER to beat two triple crown winners in the same race, in the long history of horse racing which goes back in this country to the early 1800's and still denied an Eclipse award? Something isn't right.  

Thank you for reminding me of Candy Ride--he almost threw Julie in the Pac Classic v Medaglia'D'Oro and romped--he was spectacular--in fact, he'd probably be the closest on the odds board vs 'Bid--based on his unbeaten and brilliant record--and, yes, Big Mac DID say he was better than 'Henry, although at 1 1/2 mi on turf I'd be lickin' my chops!! ANY horse thats five lengths better than Madaglia'D'Oro belongs on this list but it's true he had a very short career--and giood tio see all the Tiznow backers in here--you CAN'T leave him out, the giant's Causeway BC Classic was one of racings EPIC battles of all time, all around the track together--THATS GREATNESS!! NOT--Ghostzapper and his artificially softened pace--Tiz and Giants went mano'y'mano the whole way around and THATS HOW YOU KNOW!! Also Ack Ack won the American at 1 1/8 on turf in his brilliant '71 season---and DISAGREE about Cougar II---Curlin is better I believe he's that good--but how 'bout those swingin' 70's: Secretariat, Ruffian, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Bid, Forego, Ack Ack--racing's strongest decade.....

There has to be a software program somewhere that can crunch all the available stats for all of these great horses and predict the order of finish for a mile and a 1/4.  If it did exist this the order of finish it would show my top 10 from 1979 to the present:

Spectacular Bid

hd

Ghostzapper

hd

Tiznow

Holy Bull

Cigar

nose

Skip Away

Sunday Silence

Invasor

Alysheba

Curlin

Of course the order of finish would change at 1 1/2

so and maybe some different names would make the list, so how can we really rank them in the first place.  If about 35,000 thoroughbreds are born each year, that's 1,050,000 in the last 30 years.  To be on the list at all or even to be considered is  all that matters.   However, there can be only one who is called the greatest of all time and that honor belongs to Secretariat!!!!!!!

Great Blog!!!!!

The top ten in the past thirty years brings us back to 1978,  here we go:

1. Seattle Slew

2. Affirmed & Spectacular Bid

 (Bid and Affirmed only met once)

3. Cigar

4. John Henry

5. Swale

6. Sunday Silence & Easy Goer

7. Lady's Secret

8. Genuine Risk

9. CURLIN

10.Afleet Alex & Point Given

Can't recall,  but I don't believe Curlin raced as a 2 year old.  Considering that,  this horse has done alot more than some of you think. Draynay you need to get a clue.  He's had no 2 year old foundation, and let's see, he lost the Derby in his 5th lifetime start, something like that, and the Belmont Stakes by a head to a great filly that had 4 weeks rest, or more and considering he ran in all 3 triple crown races, and got a first and a third,  I think this horse is a warrior.  How many horses,  besides Hard Spun,  do you see running in all three triple crown races.?  That is what I call a rarity.  Take the sore losers that lose the derby,  get a good rest by skipping the Preakness, and think they are great when they win the Belmont Stakes over a warrior that ran in all three legs,  AND missed by only a head to Rags To Riches, not 20 legnths  And,  it is not as if he was pulled up on the turn like Big Brown, no he faught on like the warrior he is.  And what are you saying,  that Rags to Riches is a bum or something.????  You think just any ole horse could beat Rags..? What are you downplaying an Eclipse Award Champion? Draynay,  Are you saying Rags is some cheap claimer.?  You must be kidding me.  However,  she was not the same after that Belmont effort.  Can you blame her,  any horse that goes out there and engages in a head to head duel with Curlin has never been the same. Take Street Sense, he was never the same after being run down by Curlin in the Preakness.  And months later he was all out to beat Grasshopper in the Travers, then is like 5th in the Breeders Cup,  that was shocking.   No, Curlins simply a beast.   He kept going with Rags in the Belmont and never threw in the towel like alot of horses will do. You have to give him this much, at least he's capable of running more than 4 times per year, as well as compete in and win two mile and a quarter races, thousands of miles apart, back to back,  not like some horses that need 6 months between races just to perform Ghostzapper). Curlin is the real deal. I ranked him 9th because he's still racing,  but at this point in his career I think he's done more than Point Given and Alex, even without a 2 year old foundation.

Tom--I think there is a computer program that compared Breeders' Cup Classic winners (maybe others) a few years ago. I think ESPN and Randy Moss had a "challenge" of some sort going on--Sunday Silence was the projected winner. Maybe Jason can find out more about it...

why dont we just cut to the chase and set up a list of the most overrated american horses since the bid!! and start with all these so called supertars who are really sprinters who can never go a mile and a half in the belmont!!

Mathew W.,  I know what you mean about Ghostzapper. This horse and the way people think he was some great champion just makes me want to scream.  So he ran a mile in a minute and thirty three,  big deal,  like it hasn't been done before, and it's not as if he's the first to do it. Secretariat did that in the Gotham at 3. Easy Goer ran a mile at 3 years of age in a minute and thirty two,  I think it was the Metroplitan handicap, as they called it back then. Left Bank holds the world  or track record for,  what is it,  7 furlongs.? I'm not sure,  but Left Bank would have showed Ghostzapper his rear end.  Now that was a freakishly fast horse, Left Bank. However, the only REAL freakishly fast horse there ever was,  is Ruffian.  Anyway, I have a difficult time taking a race horse seriously when they can only run 4 times per year,  pathetic. His entire lifetime starts is eleven, and he ran for four years which equates to 2.75 races per year,  WOW, What a champion.  I call him the Lone Star Park Wonder. The zapper lovers should got Adena Springs, take zapper out of the stud barn,  bronze him, and place him in front of Lone Star Park. It always irked me that Stronach would not go to Dubai to face Roses again at a mile and a quarter. That just ticked me off,  then they give the Lone Star Park wonder an Eclipse Award.  I'll tell you what,  if that is what constitutes a horse of the year these days, it is pitiful compared to the great champions I have seen in the past four decades. You younger generation have no idea what you all missed, no idea whatsoever. At least some of you could have seen Cigar, he's probably the last of the really great ones. Its a shame because they certainly do not make race horses like they used to.. Imagine your 12 years old and your bored,  it's Saturday afternoon so you go in the house, turn on the tv set and there is a post parade taking place for a horse race that is about to begin. So you're checking out all the beautiful horses in the post parade when you see a gorgeous red horse with a really cool blue and white mask on his head being led out onto the track.  That's how it was.  Tune in and you could see Secretariat run,  it was so cool back then. I saw just about all of Ruffian's races when I was a kid on a weekly Saturday show called Racing from Belmont, Saratoga or Aqueduct with Charlsey Cantey and Frank Wright. I understand the need to want to grab onto & worship whatever horse is making news, especially when they are not around for very long.  Curlin should be cherished and appreciated for the champion that he is,  and at least his trainer isn't an arrogant loud mouth.

Keeping within the last 30 years    1. Spectacular Bid list below from top-moderator

  2. Cigar

  3. John Henry

  4. Skip Away

  5. Sunday Silence

  6. Easy Goer

  7. Curlin

  8. Alysheba

  9. Silver Charm

 10. Point Given

First 12 Furlong races other than the Belmont are rare except on turf for good horses-so giving huge points for winning at 1 1/2 is senseless in the whole scheme of things. 1 1/4 is the "Champion Distance" followed closely by 1 1/8 and a mile.

6F is the most run distance in the country followed by a mile, 7F and 6 1/2. A "Great Horse" should run be the best at ALL DISTANCES OR AT LEAST COMPETITIVE.

Since Slew and Affirmed are off the block---------NOBODY THERE WOULD GET CLOSE TO THE "BID"

Smarty Jones with his speed would be tough to challenge in a mile race-therefore should be higher than most rank him-John Henry, Tiznow (who is missing)Silver Charm and Point Given wouldn't be my choice if my life depended on it who would win between them. I think maybe Silver might make a race of it. Again 8 furlongs

To leave him off this list is mind blowing. He beat some classy horses that when 4 and older were terrors in the handicap division that weren't in his class category at 3.

The others on list possibly could-maybe?-but I'd take Smarty in a one mile race or 1 1/8

Without turf and the Belmont-no horse in N.A. running more than 1 1/4 is going to be near the top on the money list. Easy Goer over Sunday Silence fans take note. Both on here I have no problem-nice horses.

Pepper Pride or Hallowed Dreams fans-please-Cigar wasn't running in restricted races and his win streak is fantastic and a credit to his trainer. Fager and Secretariat didn't win 8 in row let alone 16 at top levels--its very tough.

John Henry, (Kelso, or a Forego) was certainly a great of racing in any era, but on his total work. He wasn’t going to win in years or if there was a shooting star that came along before they went to the breeding shed. (Kelso would get beat then beat you back I can't really put the other two at his level)

Other than the top which in my mind is only the "Bid" I won't place the rest in order although Smarty would be far before Point Given (he would be dropped) and Tiznow and Candy Ride would be on it.

Speed figures blah blah blah some horses run as fast as they have to win, especially good ones. Silver Charm is one on the list that fits. How many days did the 50K claimer run faster the stakes but they would never win that race.

More grass pedigree on Curlin.Sire-Smart Strike. Smart Strike is by Mr Prospector o/o Classy'n Smart.                              Sky Classic CH Grass Horse US. By Nijinsky o/o No Class. No Class is the dam of Classy'n Smart.                             Dance Smartly CH in Canada and US won the Breeders Stakes(G1C) on the turf. She's by Danzig o/o Classy'n Smart.So yeah I think he's got a shot to run on the turf and saying that, Cigar had turf pedigree and he was a better dirt horse.This is what makes horse racing/breeding so much fun.    

Interesting conversation - it's too bad that fate was so unkind to Barbaro, otherwise I hope to believe that he would have been in the thick of this debate.  Would have loved to see a Barbaro - Curlin - Invasor BC Classic....

I'd like to add the Red Terror, Phar Lap to Deacon's list of all time greats.....

Sorry guys about that last blog.I'm computer challenged and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Curlin in The Arc? Why not Big Brown on the same plane, for the same race, instantly a "legend" race--Think Big Brown is a real turf horse based on his moves--perfect for the Santa Anita poly---perfect for the Longchamp grass.....

I’d like to see a list compiled by well known horsemen. Jocks would be even better, especially those who have been on the backs of more than one on the list. I think that gamblers, handicappers and fans have a whole different view of who‘s on the list, based on a big score, a beautiful horse, wonderful connections like Bob/Beverly, Gretchen/Roy etc.  I also would like to see what kind of list one of the old timers would come up with, like Steve Haskin (not saying you‘re old,Steve but some of us guys are well seasoned and Jason seems to be a young and up and coming guy climbing the ladder of success, lucky for him) since some of us older folk have been able to watch some of the much older horses run and see first hand what kind of competition they ran against. Agree with Shandler in his comment to Puglady that the human connections also play a huge part. Rick is a braggart and a blowhard, that's his personality, his nefarious background doesn't instill confidence and his blatant dismissal of what Hall of Fame trainers say about losing training days (a lot of the backside was saying the same thing), offering him a legitimate excuse was not bright. The best thing he has done for racing is to say illness prevented him from  testifying  in front of Congress. Now if Mr. Jess Litigation Jackson could have had a previous engagement that would have made a lot of us happy. Therein lies the rub, not many like the connections of Curlin either. Wonder why Sanan sold his part of the colt? Owners in jail for bilking their clients, Jackson suing everybody and so hung up on  agents that he forgot about TOBA in his testimony and Assmussen with his long suspension for positives in three states, makes a lot of folks suspicious.. Maybe nothing there but we’ve seen  reactions to  the drug issues.

Wanda

Ernie Samuel got very lucky with No Class she was alright race horse but her foals especially the mares line made him a power who won many QPlates and a Breeder Cup. They all could run on anything.Even Sky Classic better noted as a turf horse was a good horse on dirt-he was champion 2 yr old in Canada and ran in the Breeders Cup 2 yr old, then didn't run for a year plus.

If Curlin takes from the top the turf shouldn't do him in. Deputy Minister's mare, Mint Copy was a claimer at one time but had a track  record at 7f on the turf-on the bottom side he has Sir Ivor blood who was strictly turf. There is definitely enough in him to be OK.

Another plus he won on the slop-not all but a number of horses that run well on muddy tracks do well on turf.

Plus he is a good horse-they tend to run on anything.

Curlin would move up with a bullet if he even runs well without winning the ARC.

Exactly Marc W a good horse doesn't carry his track with him.Curlin appears to be a big sound talented horse.And old horseman would ask what kind of feet he has.There is a "turf foot" but I'm not sure exactly what that is cause I never had  a horse run on turf except Phoenix and you can hardly call that turf.

One last comment about the ‘List’, depends on what your criteria is, times, combined lengths of victory, heart, overcoming obstacles, performing far above class or expectations all of these would lead to a thousand lists, throw in the partiality of the human and there’s another thousand, so argument for the sake of argument, the fun of debate and no clear cut winner. Oh and FormerFan, do you know Asmussen?  Agree he isn’t a loudmouth, that’s all I have to say about that.

Puglady, Steroids build muscle mass. Human or horse. Winstrol is a derivative of TESTOSTERONE makes a horse more aggressive and builds muscle mass, why do you think everyone is calling for outlawing them? If it just got them into their feed tubs, no problem. They bulk up and promote growth in the yearlings, that's why the majority of the sales have started banning them. Yes they are given in smaller doses than in humans, as far as any of us know outside of our own barns, that‘s a big as far as . Certain steroids also reduce inflammation (like when a  doctor gives it to an asthmatic) also Winstrol is given to fillies and mares to keep them from coming in season and the catch 22 is if you don't give it or something comparable, then you have some serious problems with the colts and horses in the barn as well as making the fillies and mares worthless for the most part.. Don’t believe me, Google the drug. I’m not strictly opposed, it has it’s uses when used correctly but no disaster if no problem either.

I'm going with JOHN'S FRIEND on his two Horses...John Henry is in a class by himself because he was a FREAK!!! & RUFFIAN was a doll baby...Long Live The King!!!

Formeran,

Beautiful post.  Draynay doesn't like any horse but Big Brown.  He doesn't think any horse can beat Big Brown even though 8 of them did on June 7th.  He insists that Curlin's connections will not run against Big Brown.  I don't think they're afraid of him, not at all.

They are mapping out the rest of the year.  Some people think they will put him in the BC turf if he does well on the grass.  I hope not.  I think they should do the ARC if he takes to the turf, then come back and do the BC classic.  Big Brown may or may not run, I don't think he will be the deciding factor for Curlin.  I think it would be great to see the two run against each other in the classic but if they don't someone here would think that Curlin ducked Big Brown and it just isn't true.  I don't think Curlin's connections are afraid of anyone, certainly not the European Turf stars.  I also don't know why everyone thinks Curlin couldn't run on Synthetic surfaces.  He's the kind of horse that can run anywhere.  People automatically think they won't run him in the classic because of that.

One thing you are not aware of his that Draynay knows more than anyone about horse racing.  He is a legend in his own mind.

Wanda,

I bet that George Royal baby was a beauty, his sir sure was!  Cookies, huh?  I never heard of that!  

1. Spectacular Bid (Times DO NOT LIE)

2. Cigar (Consecutive wins DO NOT LIE)

3. Curlin (Travel and earnings may lie a little... but, he's FREAK!  Let's just agree...)

4. John Henry (Heart can't be faked)

5. Sunday Silence

6. Easy Goer

7. Skip Away

8. Alysheba

9. Rags to Riches (We have to remember she beat Mr. Curlin going a 1 1/2 miles in the Test of a Champion - she deserves to be on the list if Curlin deserves to be... and, who knows if she would have showed up for the Breeder's Cup Classic this year if it weren't for the injury)

10. Silver Charm

Honorable Mention:

Point Given, Tiznow, Precisionist, Invasor, Bernardini, Afleet Alex, Smarty Jones, Real Quiet, Lost in the Fog, Charismatic, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Personal Ensign, Winning Colors, Ferdinand

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't think Dutrow should have said most of the things that came out of his mouth either.  A little more respect and humility would've taken him a lot further.  I know his track record is shady.  He's certainly not the only one. I'm not defending him or the owners.  I feel bad for the horse.  This is a horse with a lot of talent and class and it's unfortunate that he ended up with people who didn't have as much.  Some of Curlin's connections are that way, too.  Not all, but some. Makes it hard for the public to embrace the horse and that's unfortunate.  I hope the steroid ban happens, too.  Horses need to run on water, oats, and hay.  That's it.  In time, I hope these horses are remembered for their talent and not the corrupt people who handled them.  Big Brown, Curlin, and many others deserve it.

Sorry like Wanda I had a computer meltdown or maybe a senior moment, meant to say if no steroids, no big disaster for most of us.

FACT:THE LAST 30 YEARS THE BEST HORSE ON GRASS IS...... MANILA. JOCKEYS JOSE SANTOS(WHICH IS PRACTICALLY MY UNCLE) AND ANGEL CORDERO BOTH SAID THAT MANILA WAS THE BEST TURF HORSE THEY HAD EVER RIDDEN.DIRT IS A DIFFERENT STORY AND FOR THOSE SAYING THAT EASY GOER FANS ARE SORE LOSERS, ITS SIMPLE, IF EASY GOER WOULD HAVE RAN 4TH OR WORSE IN THE PREAKNESS AND THE CLASSIC THAN YOU CAN SAY OKAY HE LOST AND NO MATTER WHAT JOCKEY WAS ON THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME.FINE HE LOST THE KENTUCKY DERBY AND THE JUVENILE. BUT A STRIDE AFTER BOTH PREAKNESS AND CLASSIC EASY GOER WAS FIRST PERIOD...AND IN THE CLASSIC(IF YOU RUN THAT RACE 10 TIMES EASY GOER WINS AT LEAST 7)..THERE IS NO DOUBT PAT DAY COST HIM THE RACE...SO IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING A SORE LOSER,TURCOTTE DIDNT COST SECRETARIAT ANY RACES,NEITHER DID SHOEMAKER ON THE BID..DAY DID..THE HORSE HAS NO FAULT WHEN THEY ASK HIM TO GO OR STOP IT IS A COMMAND BUT IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT PILOT THERE IS NO DISCUSSION,TRUE IS HE LOST AND THAT NO ONE CAN TAKE BACK,BUT THAT EASY GOER WAS THE BETTER HORSE IS ALSO TRUE AND IT DOESN'T MAKE LESS THE ABILITY OF THE HORSE DESPITE THE COMMANDS OF HUMAN ERROR. BUT IF CURLIN WINS THE ARC OR THE CLASSIC AGAINST BIG BROWN THAN TURN OFF THE TV AND PUT CURLIN#1

Well, if you're going to include the great horses of the late 1970s, then practically none of the other horses would make it.

I guess I would rank Affirmed at the top because he had perhaps the toughest competition of any racehorse in history.  He not only went up against Alydar, but he raced against Seattle Slew (though not winning because Slew was a frontrunner, and once he got the lead he was almost impossible to beat) and Spectacular Bid.  Even as I put Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew, and Alydar at the top of the list, I could probably change the rankings because they were all close to the same ability (remember, Alydar was in the same class as the others were it not for Affirmed).

1.  Affirmed

2.  Spectacular Bid

3.  Seattle Slew

4.  Alydar

5.  John Henry

6.  Cigar

7.  Sunday Silence

8.  Easy Goer

9.  Personal Ensign

10.  Alysheba

I have a problem with people saying the 70's horses were better compare to the 80's and 90's.Secretariat is not a question. Seatle Slew,Affirmed,the Bid,Kelso,John Henry,Exceller,Alydar were also great horse but after that.....In the 80's Swale,Slew O'Gold,Ferdinand,Turkoman,Alysheba,Risen Star,Snow Chief,Greinton,Gate Dancer,Precisionist,Conquistadore Cielo, Bet Twice,and of course Easy Goer and Sunday Silence,these were all good to great horses. Slew O' Gold won the nyra triple crown laughing at his competition and with great times.Turkoman was a powerhouse his last half in the 86 classic is like 45 flat,he lost because of timing but and his Marlboro was awesome.Alysheba was all heart and his Woodward and Classic wins were sensational.Risen Stars belmont wow,he should have been triple crown champ like his dad. and of course Easy Goer and Sunday Silence.I am not saying they are better but I always hear that the 70's was a class by itself because of all the triple crown winners and i just don't think the 80's were that bad...Those 80's horses can Grinded out with the 70's once except for Secretariat.Maybe I am Wrong but a lot of people that saw both generations tend to agree that 70's is to hyped up and the 80's is too underestimated....

Jason, if Curlin were to win The Arc and remain unbeaten for the remainder of this year it would be very difficult to argue against him being ranked #2 behind Spectacular Bid.  In fact a strong case for the #1 spot could be made since none of his competitors over the 30 years could claim to beat the best horses of their generation in the three most prestigious races on the planet in in three different continents as well as on both grass and dirt.  Assuming Curlin's hypothetical achievement stated above my list is as follows:

1) Spectacular Bid (stubbornly my favourite)

2) Curlin

3) John Henry (what a durable champion)

4) Holy Bull (because Cigar got lucky with his injury)

5) Cigar

6) Tiznow

7) Skip Away

8) Ghostzapper (lost marks for being too judiciously raced)

9) Personal Ensign (unbelievable mare)

10)Invasor (grudgingly over Silver Charm)

Jason, the esteem we give these outstanding equine atheletes has to factor in not only the fresh memories of recent champions but also the larger-than-life image of former champions due to the passage of time.  It is a fact that some are esteemed greater than they really were due to fading memories of the quality of their competition etc.  I try to rate them based upon their proven class and consistently high level of performance rather than their longevity.  For this reason Ghost Zapper has to make the list although he was lightly raced and his races very carefully chosen.  He was by any standard a class act and we saw enough to know that he was not a flash-in-the-pan.  Holy Bull merits being high up on the list for the same reason.  Perhaps Cigar might not have made the list had Holy Bull not broken down, based upon the comparitive abilities of the two horses at the time when they raced together. I also think that Invasor is grossly underrated because he came from South America.  This horse only lost one race in his career when he was not properly acclimatised or ready to run in the UAE Derby.  I have read commentators who have diminished Bernadini's quality rather than elevate Invasor's after the 2007 Breeder's Cup.  What a shame because Bernadini was a monster and that Breeder's Cup field was an awesome assembly of quality horses.  

dont underestimate the arc!!!!  curlin will have to beat the europeans at their own game. he'll have to run the opposite direction- clockwise- over a hilly rather than flat surface which is on turf rather than dirt. then he'll have to run at 12 furlongs, the european classic distance, rather than 10 furlongs, the american classic distance. if curlin wins the arc he'll be the best since john henry. if he wins the japan cup, he'll rank among the best EVER.

Point Given can't get all of this acclaim without mentioning Risen Star, who, IMV, was as good as PG. And I would not rank RS in the top ten. Thus, PG does not belong.

I'm giving a special shout out to Congaree who did some magical work at 7F to 10F with GI wins. That horse was as tough as they come and had an unsung career.

This thread was a great, great read. It was worth the hour it took to read... ;)

why not medaglia d or? I know I spelled it wrong I always do, but aside from spelling, why isnt he included? raced over 3 yrs. won or placed in numerous grade 1 and 2, seems like no one mentions him, why not? raced against alot of good ones, and the argument that there isnt competition can be said for almost any great at any time, really. War Admiral beat a FILLY, for those that are so worried about fillies, in the derby and preakness. I know those years arent included in this, but if they were does that mean his triple crown doesnt count? With his pedigree (md's)I think he will  be a sire to be reckoned with, ( I know that doesnt count yet) and with his race record I cant see how he is excluded from this list. would love to hear opinions:) maybe there is much to this I need and want to learn, tell me! I agree Point Given doesnt deserve by a long shot to be on the top 10, and I love all alydar products, even a couple generations removed, I have a Saratoga Six mare, but he doesnt belong. Skip Away has to be one of the greatest racers of all time, I dont know why people wont give him his due. I think alot of people are prejudiced by what kind of sire these horses turned out to be, but most of the great runners never reproduced themselves, including great race mares, so lets please stick to the question, what are the 10 greatest RUNNERS of the last 30 years, nothing else. give me a minute, I will have a list:)

The Holy Bull/ Cigar comparison is not silly Jason.  Holy Bull was at the top of his game when he broke down in the Donn Handicap which was consequently won by Cigar.  That victory was perhaps the second in the series of sixteen straight wins by Cigar who was undoubtedely inferior to Holy Bull at the time.  If we are comparing the quality of these horses on a top ten list of the last thirty years you have to put their comparitive abilities into perspective.  These two make for good comparison because they were contemporaries. Cigar is indeed one of the great ones by virtue of his accomplishments but in terms of sheer class and ability he ranks behind Holy Bull in my estimation and reasonably so.  You may think that i'm talking 'bull' but this is Holy Bull.  Out of respect I would not say to put that in your "cigar" and smoke it ...(no harm intended).

Holy Bull and Cigar is like comparing Barbaro with Bernadini or Invasor with Bernadini.  In the former case very few people (perhaps only Bernadini's connections) would assess him to be superior to Barbaro at the running of the Preakness 2006.  But because Barbaro broke down and Bernadini kept winning and improving he was awarded champion three year old.  However with due respect to Bernadini's powerful performances I still rate Barbaro higher.  In the later case Invasor puts Bernadini's ability into proper perspective and vise versa, in the same way that Holy Bull ability should temper our treatment of Cigar.  You get my drift Jason?  

jshandler - I think many of us who rated curlin so high simply have a different definition of greatness. Those who rank Curlin as high as I do probably value versatility - ability to run over different surfaces and at different lengths - over durability.  

Also if durability is your number one criteria, how do you justify Point Given.  He was brillant but not "durable".  Not many of the recent 3 y-o have been durable  - they haven't been given a chance.  

You use the baseball analogy.  Well I'm from the Baltimore area so I know Cal Ripken Jr.  He might have been the most durable baseball player in modern history, but did that make him the best of his era?  Not in my opinion.

'Where is Tiznow?

This is a tough one.

How can you rank Curlin over Point Given? Granted, Curlin never finished out of the money so far, but Point Given won seven Grade 1 races during his two and three year season. He, like Curlin, won two legs of the Triple Crown while Curlin won only one, and had Gary Stevens been paying any attention at all to the blazing early fractions, he would have won the Kentucky Derby, as well.

I am a Curlin fan, but I think ratings games like this are really impossible to do.

Point Given only finished out of the money once. Now, don't his seven grade one finishes count for more than the one loss?

He won six grade one races in one year.

I love Curlin. He is beautiful. I have seen him race at the Preakness, Belmont, Haskell and Breeders Cup. He is a beautiful horse and he ranks highly. He deserved his horse of the year honors last year and will as well this year. But this is such a tough call.

Its not Curlin's fault, but who has his competition been? Alysheba beat Ferdinand a Kentucky Derby winner. Easy Goer had to go against Sunday Silence and visa versa.

And what about speed. Curlin has never set blazing fractions that I can recall. He wins. He is a monster, but I just do not see him near the top.

Spectacular Bid

Cigar

John Henry

Skip Away

Sunday Silence

Easy Goer

Alysheba

Point Given tied with Curlin and Slver Charm for seventh

I agree with those comments Jason.As I said earlier your comparing apples and oranges.They hook who they hook and the good ones show up with their game face on every time.When you map out a plan for a good one you stick to it.Depending on the horse it could be 4-6 weeks apart or more.Case in point Dennis of Cork.He's a light framed horse who loses alot of body weight when he runs. If you don't give him time between races to put that weight back on the tank will be empty.Some of these good handicap horses are running in a year when there is lots of compition,other times it's a pretty easy win.That's why they put on the weight in handicap races.Horses like Forego packing over 130 pounds and beating his rivals.That's what makes these horses great.

jason,

  I didn't realize Invasor wasn't on your list because non North American breeding. Because otherwise has to make top ten with 6 grade ones in row and won the two richest dirt races in the world!!

I really would like to see where Curlin stacks up against all the other great horses in earnings, adjusted for inflation.  The BloodHorse used to list the top 100 earners, in 1967 dollars (a bit outdated, what with the bouts of inflation since then, but still, an equalizing comparison of that type would be nice.)  I would like to see it return to the BloodHorse pages, even if just once a month.

Is Curlin the greatest?  Only time (and Curlin) will tell.

30 years of racing and not a single fillie makes your top ten??  How about Personal Ensign 13 starts, 13 wins beating the boys in the Whitney...sounds better than Curlin only winning one of three triple crown tries.  Lady's Secret 45-25-9-3 compares to Skip Away, John Henry and even Cigar.  Azeri at 24-17-4-0 is better than Alysheba and Silver Charm.

I really don't think that we get to see the true greatness of horses today, they are all too often retired too early!  Curlin's ownership is the exception by far.  He is a great horse, but I don't even have him in my top ten....yet!

SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU FORGOT THAT "AWSOME AGAIN" HAD AN UNDEFEATED SEASON AND BEAT SKIP AWAY AND SILVER CHARM AMONG ALL THE REST WHO RACED.HOW DO YOU PUT "SKIP AWAY FROM AWSOME AGAIN" THAT HIGH.... I ALSO DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT OF CURLIN BEING RANKED THAT LOW.FORGET THE LAST 30 YEARS AND PUT HIM IN THE ALL TIME TOP TEN.AMONG OTHER THINGS HE RAN THE PREAKNESS STAKES AS FAST AS SECRETARIAT.HE FACED THE BEST GROUP OF HORSES EVER TO RUN IN THE SAME YEAR.LAST BUT NOT LEAST HE IS CONSISTANT, A THROWBACK TO THE HORSES WHO JUST KEPT RUNNING WITH NO EXCUSES.

Fightfan - Awesome Again was a 1 race wonder, which is why he's not on the list. It would be like putting Alphabet Soup on there because he beat Cigar in the BC Classic. The only reason Awesome Again had an undefeated season was because he ducked every good horse that whole year until the BC. He was supposed to face Skip Away in the Iselin, but Byrne got angry that he was "only getting 10 pounds from Skip Away" and thought he should get at least 12. That's a horse you want to put on the list?

You can understand Byrne's reluctance to face Skip; Awesome Again closed out the previous year by getting repeatedly drubbed by Deputy Commander, who in his next race got drubbed by Skip Away. Hence the ducking even when assigned 10 lbs less.

Hi again, Jason.

Thanks for using my comments the other day...even though I forgot to mention horses like champions A.P. Indy, Dance Smartly, Lava Man and John Henry, who all won 'big' races on both surfaces within your 30-year time frame.

But please tell Bladerunner that IF Curlin wins the Arc, no horse can boast wins in the BC Classic, Dubai World Cup and the Arc.   Probably the three most prestigious races in the world...in three different countries.

What would make the Arc feat even more amazing is the fact that he'd be doing it lasix-free, running 'the other way' on another continent and beating a 15-horse field of world turf specialists, in what would only be his third start on grass.

The Arc carries a little more weight than the Arlington Million, etc.  More than the BC Turf, too.  Many Euros could care less about most of the stakes in North America.

However, if Curlin went over there and won the Arc (although I doubt he'll even try to), as lightly-raced as he is career-wise, how could anyone NOT rank him on top?

Thanks.

Danylson you are right that Easy Goer should have beaten Sunday Silence in BC Classic---but you are wrong about whose fault it was: Pat Day rode the race right--Easy Goer had lost some of his accelleration from having run in the 1 1/2 mi JC Gold Cup--the 1 1/2 distance ILL PREPARED 'Goer to meet his nimesis, the great Sunday Silence---those two were something although neither did much at four, making Curlin look pretty darn good right now--he's truly a good one--again, when you have real good ones, tracks come up with "special" races to settle things, perhaps a threeway with Brownie/Curlin/Heatseeker with a ten lb weight break for the 3yo...at Arlington or Monmouth, 1 1/8 miles...just a teaser!! Just hopin'!! Racing needs to do this thing--Big Brown v Curlin--WHEREVER!!

I agree with Awesome Again being a one hit wonder. Now if Big Brown show up in the Haskell and wins again and beats CURLIN,then he would need to be included in the list as number #10 not higher but on the list. His derby was fantastic and all the time he lost running 4 or 5 wide around the race.His Preakness was perhaps the best Preakness ever despite the mediocre competition. The Belmont....the mistery...didn't Upset beat the immortal Man O'War

To the 70's question/comments better then?

They "were better" race times will bear that out somewhat but there are greater points.

A) A good sire was syndicated in 32 or 36 shares-each with a breeding season rights-the good sire didn't have 130 foals a year and go overseas. The breed was purer then.

Bold Ruler and Northern Dancer (later in his career) saw quality mares only. Forty at most.

B) They weren't injected in 17 or more different places before -No lasix, bute (except for training a sore horse-not on racedays)a good portion had winters off. Ice, rubbing them with liniments, not  nerving, not knee and ankle pain killing drugs.

They raced into shape not trained as hard or as much. Trainers- trained, not vets. Every leading trainer today  has a high win % vet------those vets seem to do well with any barn they work for. Check it out, although you will not find that stat in the form yet-pity.

Lists are nice for debate-all mentioned are good horses and among the best of their generation-no computer or person can measure heart or will to win-nor times as a major factor because of different places they raced and surfaces.

I am cheering for Curlin to do well as I would Big Brown for should he go to France. It would be great for  US racing to be on the same level of difficulty the ship-ins had to show to win here.

He is a very nice horse who can be the first US horse to win major races on 3 continents. (Doctor Dino did it recently-they were all G1's but-not at the same prestigious level) A great accomplishment-he would be first-this would guarantee a space with greats-Go Curlin! (no matter where you list him)

PS -Another note, as I was raised in Canada although US born and citizen. Curlin is from Canadian lines on both sides on his lineage -it would be a North American win as well for the USA.

Cal Breds and Fillies/Mares get no respect.  How about Best Pal or Bayakoa or even Lava Man?  There also would not have been any Alysheba (a great horse) without Ferdinand.  I think there should be a few more "western" horses than the 6 listed.  In fact Easy Goer should go on the most over hyped horses with the likes of Arazi and Mr. Frisky.  I would put Ferdinand and even Best Pal in front of Easy Goer.  They simply did much more at 2, 3, 4, 5, and beyond.  

Any irony that Curlin got the same gate break as Big Brown? He overcame. That is why the talk of Curlin ducking Big Brown later in the season was ridiculous. I would have him ranked 5th as well, but he could have beaten everyone on the list.

Curlin is ducking Big Brown and you will see why he is ducking him in the Haskell.  The horse lost due to a freak maiden horse that did not belong in the race stepping on him.  Not to mention the starter was on the track right in front of Big Brown and scared him half to death.

Draynay give it up, your horse lost due to bad training due to a quartercrack and your horse's inexperience, why didn't the other horses react the same way. Curlin is not ducking Big Brown his connections are headed in the right direction in showing just how good this horse is and if the connections of Big Brown would do the same they would keep Big Brown around as a 4 year old so that he could perhaps become as good as Curlin. I swear all you do is provoke anger from other bloggers but enough is enough with your ego.

Looking at that best horses of the past thirty years is a bit difficult when in my opinion the best horses haven't been allowed to run beyond there three year old season. Most of the horses in this modern day that go   on to run beyond 3 ( Curlin being one of the few exceptions) are the ones that are yet to attain the status for a good breeding price .

On the Curlin , big brown issue , I think that it is something that is in the interest of horse racing to make it happen. It is a race that will attract a large following, I mean I certainly want to see it. I also want to see both of these horses run against heatseaker later this year.

teacher:pointgiven/ pupil: tiznow!try and deal with it!                                                                                          

I personally think it's an honor for Curlin and his connections just to be mentioned with these horses on the list. Its a credit to what he has done in a short period of time!.

HOUSEHOLDER, BEST PAL AND FERDINAND WOULDNT CLEAN EASY GOER'S LOOSE SHOE...AND I THINK BEST PAL AND FERDINAND WERE REALLY GOOD HORSES BUT EASY GOER WAS A FREAK...LOOK I RECOMMEND SOMETHING,GO TO YOUTUBE AND TYPE EASY GOER AND SEE ALL OF EASY GOER'S RACES(YOUTUBE HAS LIKE 20 OF HIS RACES) AND THEN COMMENT BACK AND TELL ME THAT BESTPAL AND FERDINAND ARE BETTER..NOT IN A MILLION YEARS

Inexperience ?  The horse wins the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, and Preakness and is lacking experience at the Belmont ??? Curlin has been beating up a bunch of washed up older horses... if he is what you say he is face Big Brown or just go away. Nobody wants to see Curlin run 3rd in the Arc...

I have a suggestion to everyone on this board. IGNORE DRAYNAY. He seems like the type who loves to agitate and keeps preaching the same thing over and over hoping that people will just give up and believe him and he is acutally totally cluesless about horse racing. My advice, a motto I usually try to live by: NEVER MATCH WITS WITH AN UNARMED OPPONENT.

POINTGIVEN! NUFF SAID!!!!!!

DocFarmer you are correct, sorry for my blowup but this person can get under one's skin. I understand having love for a horse but I just don't understand this individual's negative words regarding Curlin and what he has accomplished and to say he is ducking Big Brown when Curlin's connections have been pretty upfront and honest about where they were headed with this horse, I say his owner should be given cudos for keeping the horse in the game and giving him the top challenges in racing he needs to prove just how good he is because only through his races will we eventually know just where Curlin ranks against the greats of long ago.

COMPARING HORSES IS TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.FOR INSTANCE TAKE THE ALL TIME TOP 100 THOROUGHBREDS AS LISTED BY BLOOD-HORSE MAGAZINE.SPECTACULAR BID IS RANKED #10 WHILE AFFIRMED IS RANKED #12,YET SPECTACULAR BID COUDN'T BEAT AFFIRMED.

AS FOR CURLIN WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK OF A HORSE WHO AS A 3 YEAR OLD WAS STILL BEING SCHOOLED.AS LONG AS WERE DISCUSSING POSSIBILITIES SUPPOSE CURLIN STARTED HIS CAREER AS A 2 YEAR OLD AND BY THE TIME HE REACHED THE KENTUCKY DERBY HE WAS FULLY SCHOOLED.I THINK HE COULD HAVE BEEN A TRIPLE CROWN WINNER AS THERE WAS NO MAJOR FAULT WITHIN HIM.HE WAS FAST OVER ALL DISTANCES.DURABLE AND CONSISTANT.HIS LOSS IN THE DERBY WAS I BELIEVE DUE TO LACK OF EXPERIENCE.HIS LOSS IN THE BELMONT WAS TO AN EXCEPTIONAL FILLY IN A RACE THAT ON A FAST TRACK WENT TO THE 3/4 MILE IN 1:15:3 VIRTUALLY TURNING WHAT WAS SUPOSED TO BE AN ENDURANCE RACE INTO A SPRINT.IF YOU HAVE DOUBTS GO TO YOU-TUBE AND LOOK AT HIS LAST 3 RACES WHEN HE WAS SCHOOLED.ALSO I'VE HEARD ALL THE TALK TALK ABOUT BIG BROWN BEING A PUSH BUTTON HORSE MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT CURLIN AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ROBBY PUSHES THE BUTTON.

AS FOR BIG BROWN I REALLY BELIEVE HE IS AN EXCEPTIONAL HORSE AND HIS BELMONT RACE SHOULD BE A THROWAY AS IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT COULD GO WRONG FOR ANY HORSE IN A RACE WENT WRONG FOR HIM THAT RACE.....

I think the Top 10 is almost exactly on target. Here is a look Statistically of the Top 20 over the last 31 years:

Horse of the Ages - 1979-2010 Horse         Earnings

  Win%   I-T-M%  Gr1Wins  StksWins

1.) Spectacular Bid $3,781,608.00   90%  100%   8   21

2.) Cigar          $9,999,815.00   58%   85%  11   16

3.) John Henry  $6,591,860.00   47%   76%  6   15 4.) Skip Away $9,616,360.00

  47%   90%  11   15

5.) Sunday Silence $4,968,554.00   65%  100%   5    7 6.) Easy Goer   $4,873,770.00   70%  100%   8   11 7.) Curlin $9,427,800.00

  75%  100%   6    9

8.) Alysheba $6,679,242.00

  43%   81%   6    7

9.) Silver Charm $6,944,369.00

  50%   92%   4    9

10.) Point Given $4,068,500.00

  70%   92%   6    8 11.) Personal Ensign$1,679,880.00  100%  100%   5   11

12.) Smarty Jones  $7,613,155.00   89%  100%   3    6

13.) Invasor $7,804,070.00

  91%   91%   6   10

14.) Holy Bull $2,481,760.00

  81%   81%   7    10

15.) Real Quiet $3,271,802.00

  35%   90%   5     6

16.) All Along $3,018,420.00

  42%   71%   3     8

T17.) Go For Wand $1,373,338.00

  77%   92%   5     7

T17.) Lady's Secret $3,021,325.00   55%   82%   6    11

18.) Miesque    $2,096,517.00

  75%  100%   4    10

19.) Lure       $2,515,289.00

  56%   88%   4     7

20.) Davonna Dale  $641,612.00

  62%   78%   7     9

CRAIG THAT LIST IS AWESOME. THE ONLY THING IS MANILA ISN'T ON IT. 18 STARTS 12 WINS AND 5 SECONDS. THE ONLY TIME HE DIDN'T PLACE WAS WHEN HE RAN ON THE DIRT.STEVE DAVIDOWITZ OF THE DAILY RACING FORM FROM HIS BOOK "THE BEST AND THE WORST OF THOROUGHBRED RACING" PLACES HIM #1 FOR THE BEST TURF HORSE IN AMERICA THIS PAST CENTURY...DO YOU KNOW WHO HE PLACED #2....JOHN HENRY.MANILA JUST AWESOME

Without Helen Pitts carefully bringing up Curlin--His career (like many of his other talented babies) would have only amounted to a maiden win at Keeneland in April going 4 1/2.

According to Draynay, the only horse belonging on the list is Big Brown.  None of the rest of the horses are as good as he is.  Well,

I think Big Brown has to show what he's made of in the Haskell.  Let's see what he does.  Sometimes horses peak at a certain point.  Maybe he as already peaked and will decline or he will maintain his form and be unbeatable.  It is not a foregone conclusion, is it?

Big Brown lost because of the starter on the track and because the maiden stepped on him? Let's examine what Draynay is alleging.

IF Big Brown spooked because of the starter on the track that shows a lack of professionalism. In other words that was his own fault. Their are starters on the track in almost precisely the same position throughout the country day after day. I've seen bottom level claimers and bottom level maiden claimers who don't spook from that. If that cost him the race he has nothing to blame but himself.

The maiden stepping on on Big Brown wasn't the maidens fault. Once again Big Brown caused that to happen because he broke out into the maiden. Put the blame if you must on the correct horse. Big Brown caused his own problem again.

The maiden was in this race because the lack of overall talent made it appealing. It was such a weak bunch of 3 yr olds running it was worth taking a shot. Too bad Big Brown caused him so much trouble, he may have picked up some nice change since he didn't have much to beat. All told he still beat Big Brown even though Big Brown took him out at the start. At least he didn't spit the bit like Brownie.

Haskell, Smaskell, If Big Brown runs their probably won't be much to gauge him against since he keeps ducking Curlin. He should win by daylight but that won't prove anything if he faces another weak field like he has his entire career.

Draynay I want to see Curlin run in the ARC no matter where he places if for no other reason than it bothers you so much.

Then again if Big Brown's connections would quit ducking THE CHAMP maybe it would finally shut you up when Curlin whips him.

Of course you would find some excuse to blame the loss but that seems to be your nature. LOL let's run the Big Ole Browneye in the Haskell where there will be no Curlin or anything approaching him to worry about. I suppose after getting his rearend handed to him in the Belmont he needs an easy race to get some confidence back. Just to piss you off more I hope they enter the Maiden that ran in the Belmont in the Haskell too. Wouldn't that be sweet justice for him to whip Brownie again after what Brownie put him through last time?

Hey Duck Duck Dutrow, make sure to weld the shoes on this time so if Brownie freaks again that will be one less excuse we have to listen to 3-4 weeks later.

I don't think Curlin's connections are worried about facing Big Brown.  They have much more in mind for Curlin.  I do hope that when he returns from France, they go to the BC Classic and finish up his year there.  Who knows what will happen in France?  He doesn't seem to mind grass and we will find out in a couple of weeks how well he does on the turf here.  He has a huge challenge over there learning to run the opposite direction and on a hilly course.  To me that's a much bigger challenge than running against Big Brown on Dirt.  No other American Horse has ever won the ARC.  If he does it will be one heck of an accomplishment.  That is like the biggest race in Europe.  I think it's very exciting but then again we are getting ahead of ourselves.  First we must see how he does in his first turf race.

Draynot,

You really get me to laughing.  Thank you for the post, it really made my day!  You have a great sense of humor!

Hey Jason,

I hope you create another blog that will be as interesting as these have been.  I have never had such a good time posting and enjoying all the other posts as well.  Draynay is nothing if not consistent.  You can count on him to bash Curlin and make excuses for Big Brown, the greatest horse born in 30 years.

DANYLSON.  Sure Easy Goer was a great horse and probably would have won the Triple Crown if it was run at Saratoga, Aqueduct, and Belmont in that order.  I won't take anything away from the 2 year old champion (and the first second coming of Secretariat) other than the fact that he ran into a horse that couldn't sell for $20,000 at a yearling auction and was 1 for 5 outside of the state of NY. It is unfortunate that Easy Goer was hurt at 4 as it makes comparisons to older horses like Best Pal difficult. Winning the Santa Anita Debry, second in the KY Derby, and winning the Pacific Classic all in the same year (as a 3 year old) and then placing in the SA Big Cap at 7 is pretty impressive. Not to mention earning close to 6 million. I also think 1986's Lady Secret (Eclipse Award Winning Horse of the Year) merits a mention since she beat up the boys in such races as the Whitney (a race also won by the likes of Easy Goer).  

HOUSEHOLDER,I AGREE WITH YOU THAT BEST PAL WAS A GOOD HORSE AND THE CAP WINS WERE INCREDIBLE.HIS WIN IN THE PACIFIC CLASSIC WAS GREAT AND THE FIELD THAT YEAR WAS LOADED WITH THE AMERICAN CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES RACE HORSE,WE NEED A SERIES LIKE THAT TO PROMOTE THE SPORT AND TO KEEP THE OLDER HORSE ACTIVE AND EXCITED.I ALSO SAW LADY SECRET LIVE,SHE WOULD BEAT UP ON TURKOMAN AND PRECISIONIST AT BELMONT ALL THE TIME,SHE WAS A GREAT FILLY.THE LIST IS GREAT AND MANY DESERVE TO BE ADDED.

Big Brown was tired --- he had a lack of stamina --- and his jockey gave him a terirble ride.

Case closed.

Big Brown is a good horse -- but to be a great horse you need to beat other great horses.

Curlin has nothing left to prove my friends. Big Brown still does. Curlin won against a much tougher field of three years olds and then faced older horses and did quite well.

excluding the time element, my favorites are secretariat, forego and john henry.

one thing that stands out in my mindin regard to secretariat is the fact that his track record for a mile and a quarter still stands after 30 plus derbies and more importantly, six breeders' cup classics. the best of the best have not been able to break it.

forego, a horse of another color,was outstanding in his own right, with raw speed to match his gigantic heart and the will to run on bad ankles.

how can anyone deny john henry his rightful spot? who knows how much more he could have accomplished if his talent on the turf was discovered earlier. at any rate, his quality of performance carried far, far beyond the norm for his level of competition.

i never saw secretariat race, but i saw him at claiborne and i will never forget those ten or fifteen minutes i spent right next to him.

as for forego, i saw him win the widener at hialeah in 1974 and i saw john henry win two arlington millions and place in another.

i think anyone would be hard pressed to come up with a trio like them, because there is no comparison out there , especially in the more recent crops of thoroughbreds.

big brown and curlin! give me a break.

LANCE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HORSES IS LIMITED TO THE FACT THAT YOU KNOW THE BEST OF THEM WAS BIG RED...AS FOR CURLIN I REALLY DON'T THINK YOUR PICKS MATCH HIM IN SPEED ,POWER ,ENDURANCE AND DISTANCE..... ALSO THEY MAY BE YOUR FAVORITES ( FOREGO AND JOHN HENRY )BUT THERE WAS A HORSE ONCE UPON A TIME WHO RACED ON DIRT AND TURF CALLED KELSO... LOOK HIM UP THEN TELL ME ABOUT THOSE OTHER TWO HORSES.

mr. fight fan,

i will match my knowledge of thoroughbreds in any manner related to them against yours any day of the week.

i don't have to look kelso up, because i was aware of his accomplishments when he was running

and i always had high respect for him, but i believe that i have the right to select my favorites based on the criteria i use to judge great race horses. don't you?

besides, we are talking about curlin and even though i believe that curlin is an excellent race horse, he has yet to prove that he is in the select category of "great" race horses.

there is a small, but vocal group of secretariat bashers out there who come up with a multitude of reasons why he can't be considered the greatest race horse of all time. they say that the track here and the track there was hand tailored to secretariat's impending appearance and that it was dry in new york during the year he established track records and as a result, the track was super fast.

there is a track record for each distance at each race track. if speed wasn't at the core of performance for thoroughbreds, you could then run shetland ponies against thoroughbreds, correct?

as i had stated in an earlier posting, more than 30 crops of three year olds had a chance to break secretariat's record and were not successful. i don't know how many horses ran in the subsequent derbies, but i believe that it would be safe to say that more than 500 did. alysheba, black tie affair, concern, awsome again, tiznow and invasor all had their chances and failed.

i am talking about just one track and one surface. what more needs to be said.

IN REALITY, SECRETARIAT WHO IN MY OPINION WAS EASILY THE BEST OF THEM WAS THE HORSE MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR TODAY'S PRACTICE OF RETIRING HORSES AFTER THEIR THREE YEAR OLD SEASON.IN EFFECT HE WAS ACTUALLY THE BEGINING OF THE DEMISE OF HORSE RACING.OTHER GREAT HORSES BEFORE HIM SUCH AS ,DR.FAGER AND BUCKPASSER,WHO RAN AS FOUR YEAR OLDS AND WHO WERE NOT GELDINGS MADE RACING ENJOYABLE.NOW THEY GET RETIRED AFTER SEVEN RACES,RIDICULOUS... YES YOUR RIGHT IN THE FACT THAT YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE YOUR FAVORITES AS I STATED IN MY POST WHO THE BEST HORSES WERE IS PURELY SUBJECTIVE. AS FOR ME " CURLIN" IS RIGHT THERE WITH THEM ESPECIALLY IF IT TURNS OUT THAT HE CAN RUN ON TURF WHICH THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE HE CAN'T GIVEN THAT HE IS A HALF BROTHER TO ENGLISH CHANNEL.HAVE A GOOD DAY..

Lady Secret...with her ability to tackle the classic distances it was not hard to tell who her daddy was.  I also think Lukas did a pretty good job with another gray 2 years later with Winning Colors kicking dirt at the boys in the Santa Anita Derby dusting them by 8 just 4/5ths on the stakes record.  Yes...there would be no Sunday Silence without Easy Goer.  I also You Tubed Prized and had not realized that Sunday Silence was 1/5 when he lost the SWAPS to Prized but was redeemed a bit when Prized took the Breeder's Cup Turf later that year at age 3 (over El Senoir).  Eddie D...they don't make them like that anymore.  

INVASOR should be on this list anyway you cut it...Long Live The King & Dirt!!!

I highly recommend a You Tube viewing of the 1988 San Bernadino Handicap...a Classic Alysheba/Ferdinand duel.  There would be no Alysheba without Ferdinand.  Although Alysheba's clipping of Bet Twice's heels in the Kentucky Derby (only to come on and pass Bet Twice) still sticks out in my mind as one of the all time grinding out...stick with it wins.  Alysheba also had a little speed if needed (109and 1/5...134and3/5th going a mile and a quarter).  If he had been able to run on Lasix in the Belmont he may have been the 12th Tripple Crown Winner.  He was a terrible bleeder.