THAT WASN'T A CHEAP SHOT JUST ATRUTHFUL ONE!!  I'M JUST THANKFUL BIG BROWN IS NOT INJURED.

I love this horse and still believe that he can rock the track. I was a big War Pass fan, but I did fall in love with this guy when I saw him for the first time at the Florida Derby. I was hoping that he will sweep the TC without any question...My opinion about his poor performance? I would give 50% to lack of form (and training) caused by his quarter crack, 35% to lose shoe and 15% to other factors such as heat, ride ant overall discomfort. I hope he will return BIG in August and let us enjoy, for little bit more, his class and speed :-) Stay sound and go Brownie, go!!!

The three year old championship is still his.  The shoe will go down in triple crown history along with Bid's bandage pin incident, but the quarter crack's impact on BB's training will remain the major factor.  His Belmont run will remain the most puzzling of all of the tc contenders' efforts.  

I don't think the shoe was a big of a problem as the lack of training prior to a very grueling race, it sure didn't cause him to be last.  The jockey pulling him up (and I find it hard to believe he did that without instructions from the connections as an alternative plan if he wasn't going to win or place) and probably the lack of a distance pedigree caused the problem.  Part of me is glad he didn't win the triple crown because in my experience horses with reoccuring quarter cracks get them because of a problem with their confirmation and for that reason they shouldn't be included in the gene pool.  However, we all know he is going to be and therefore that is bad for racing as a whole.  I say this as someone who would love to see a triple crown winner, I was a young girl when Secretariat won and I would love my daughter to see something like that, nothing else compares.  I think the horse is an outstanding individual but he would have to race over a number of years before I would think he is a great one.

I feel Browns problem was all at the start of the race. To Begin with he broke badly, veering to the right and almost bumping another horse. As a result of this he found himself enclosed with no chance of getting the position he wanted by the first turn. Brown was obviously bothered as indicated by his taking hold of Desormoux. By the time he split horses and got position, although not ideal position, the horse was stressed and frustrated. He left his race from the starting gate to the first turn. You can fault this one to the proverbial bad trip that was directly related to post position.

Was it the shoe? I don't think so, other horses have won with the same shoe issue so I don't think this is an excuse that I would want on my horse. I think that there were a lot of other issues going on for Big Brown that day and if he had been a two year old running the way he did I think quite a few would have chalked it up to inexperience coming through. Let the horse be and let's see what he does in his next race.

When I ride, I know pretty fast if my horse has a problem with one of his feet.  Even a small stone lodged beneath his hoof can alter his gate.  I'm sure if the shoe was causing problems, Desormeaux would have known about it immediately.  I think the big guy's training schedule was altered because of the quarter crack and he therefore wasn't in peak form on a hot day at Belmont.  Big Brown is an awesome horse, but no better than any of last year's top three year olds: Curlin, Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags to Riches.  What a year 2007 was!

It's funny how no one else on this blog or other ones I look at has mentioned like I did here that simply put, Big Brown does not like being pelted with dirt. He drew the rail, got trapped along the rail by D'Tara and Tale Of Ekati, and had no where to go. He had never been put in that position before and did not react favourably to it.

I've been following racing on and off for about 35 years and racing finally has its version of the Zapruder film for fans to speculate and build conspiracy theories for years to come.

Are you telling me that Richard Dutrow who has been traning horses for years did not discover the loose shoe immediately after the race when he insisted that he went over the horse with a fine tooth comb to determine why he ran so badly?  Just another excuse for a poor training job when Dutrow did not use his usual steroid cocktail and God knows what else he makes his horsed ingest before they run.

yes the shoe was the issue..  if you watch the race you can see where he is hurting from the nail.  

Could the shoe have been a problem?  Certainly!  Not as far as causing discomfort as in tiring him.  A shoe that is loose can pick up dirt in it.  Just pulling it through the dirt could cause him to tire.  Add in everything else and it is a possibility.  Was it the cause?  We will never know for sure.  I guess we can just call it the Domino effect (no relation to the horse).

From my long experience with horses I believe Big Brown broke well but was startled by seeing a person directly in front of him out on the track.  Horses are spooky by nature.  When they see something that they are not expecting they are prone to shy away from it.  We do not gate train horses with someone standing out on the track in front of them.  It is clear that Big Brown was startled at the first jump out of the gate.  He shied into the path of the #2 horse who clipped his outside rear hoof loosening the shoe.  He came out of the gate hot, was startled, was clipped by another horse and so became very rank. Why the stater was out on the track instead of up in the starter stand off the track is not understood by me. The starter needs to explain.    

I have never seen so many excuses for a horse losing a race.  He lost, it's over.  You can't go back and say hey, he had a loose shoe so let's give him the Triple Crown because he would have won it.

Okay, I also realize that so many people saw this horse demolish previous competition and are looking for a reason for the loss.  I understand that.  I've heard several excuses.  Desormeaux's ride...I don't think his ride was terrible.  I think he did what he had to do and wanted to get the horse out of trouble.  I don't really understand why he eased and didn't let him run to the finish.  I thought it was because he was sure something was wrong with the horse but then he said nothing was wrong.  The shoe problem...no...Kent would have realized something was wrong if it was a factor.  The horse's stride would have been affected if he was in pain or the shoe was bothering him. Kent would have felt that on the back stretch.  He didn't mention it.  The heat, yes, that could bother him but it would have bothered all of the horses, don't you think?  The lack of training.  Well, that could have something to do with it but they were fighting a quarter crack and had to be careful.  The horse was plenty fit and only needed maintenance.  Smarty Jones was not worked alot between the Preakness and the Belmont but came in second at least.  If the quarter crack caused

a problem with the training and the horse wasn't ready for that race, then he should have been scratched.  Why risk the horse?  

I actually think it was two factors.  The first one being that he was not injected with steriods for about 6 weeks.  It takes time for drugs to leave the horse's system when they are administered regularly.  This is just a guess on my part but I think he was grouchy and unhappy the day of the Belmont after viewing his antics in the holding barn.  They spoke about how rough he was that last week.  Could possibly be it.  Second, he had the bad trip which he hadn't had before and only having 5 previous races he rebelled and didn't want to go, he was angry.  Yes, there are several excuses you can use to understand the loss.

Now, let's see how he does in the Haskell.  Things may be different because some of the other 3 year olds are maturing now and may be better competition for him.  Also, other riders may try boxing him in now that they know he doesn't like it.  He may do okay or he may not.  As long as he is in the clear, he will probably win but it is horse racing and you never know.

I didn't think Big Brown would win the Triple Crown.  I didn't think he had enough foundation under him.  It an almost impossible task.

The closest was Real Quiet who lost by a nose and I don't think he was as good as Big Brown.

Now, let's forget about the Belmont and not find anymore excuses for the loss. It's a done deal and there is nothing that can be done about it.  There is no shame in losing that race.  Lots of horses have.  Time to move on and see how the second half of the year goes.

yes, his shoe was loose......but who caused it? he himself! not on purpose, but he ran into the maiden, and the maiden stepped on his foot. look at the pics. desormeax had a horrible ride, and BB ducked.

I've seen horses that are not great still run on a loose shoe. if he's as good as everyone thinks, a shoe would not make a difference.

Of course it wasn't the shoe. In fact, the shoe was ideally situated on the rear hoof. This is actually what owners, trainers, jockeys, and farriers (is that word still used?) want. If they could set that one rear shoe at just that precise angle (with the perfect downward bend) and get consistent results, they would do so every time.  Aren't there BSFHLS (Beyer Speed Figures for Horses with Loose Shoes)?  

It's just too hard to get that exact loose shoe placement and make it stick, so darned if they don't just typically nail the things down, the slackers. But getting another horse--during the race--to place the shoe in perfect position while still keeping the nail in--now that was the big trick. Too bad all the horses at the Belmont didn't have this advantage. I'm sure the winning time would have been better than a mere 2:29.65, or whatever.  

You can't quantify an injury that didn't happen.

Horses adapt to all kinds of stuff.

They compensate, use other parts of their body harder.

For example landing a little harder on the left front.

Forget the triple crown. The horse came home sound and is probably eating his dinner as I write this.

In my country-Peru- the "Starter" is on top of a portable tower next to the rail and outside the track.

Evidence shows that Big Brown got spooked at the starter that was inside the track ! and charge towards the outside (away from the starter) getting stepped on by Guadalcanal adnd bending the shoe that had turndowns (Farriers turn down the end of the shoe with the shaping hammer for more traction).

I'm a full time Farrier with 26 years of experience (www.CocoCaballo.com); I was the official Farrier for the 2008 "Latinoamericano de Jockey Clubs -Copa Falabella G-I " - South American version of the Breeder's Cup-

Have you ever seen an Indy, F1 or Nascar stock car blowing up a tire at the start and finishing the race on that blown tire ? NOPE !

In my experience as a Farrier of many G-I winners , I have never,ever seen a horse winning a race with a shoe in those conditions. Is NOT an excuse, it is a FACT! plain and simple,  that's all !

I think the ride was the real problem, plus lack of steriods and conditioning. HOWEVER, at the same time, many horses can run with a loose shoe, my own horse can finish out galloping a course with a dislodged shoe ect, but that varies horse to horse, we all know Brown has crummy feet, therefore they are more sensitive, and if the nail was bouncin into the foot upon impact, it may have just made him turned off from running enough to suck back and give nothing. Who knows, too bad Brown cant talk seeing as his trainer is a...well...we all know

For me, the start to the first turn was the race.  Sure, BB flinched at the starter allowing some outsiders to start to close.  However, Desormeaux pulling the horse right and then pushing the button to run BB up into another horse getting a bit roughed up and then jerking BB between to horses to get to the outside was, simply, a horrendous ride and losing tactic.  Had the jock chosen to push button BB straight forward to the front there was ample room to be there with the leader on the rail.  The pulling BB right and then push button him rather than push button him straight to the front is what cost the horse to lose.

Well first let me remind everyone that War Admiral grabbed a quarter at the start of the Belmont and still won by many bleeding all the way. That being said I do believe however that the shoe and the placement of the nail as Big Brown ran his race could have been a major factor. If the starter had not been on the track Big Brown would not have ducked out at the break. If BB had not have ducked out at the break the other horse would not have stepped on him. All of this agitated BB which caused him to be uncharacteristically rank. That caused Kent to fight him and the race was lost.

Lesson learned: There are no guarantees in life, no foregone conclusions. Fate steps in and finds a way to humble even the most arrogant.

I have considered the Belmont for some time. I know Big Brown had a quarter crack that probably affected his traing. However, when he finished the Preakness he was hardly blowing and the announcers even remarked that he did not look like a horse that had just finished running a mile and 3/16ths. He was obviously fit.

I do not feel Big Brown was given the opportunity to run his race. The starter standing pretty far out ON THE TRACK WEARING A BLUE BLAZER AND WHITE PANTS obviously spooked him and caused him to bear in on the maiden horse.

I do not think this matter has been answered satisfactorily at all.  It make me wonder if someone "arranged" that so that Big Brown would have a lesser chance of winning.  The starter knew Big Brown was in the one hole and going for a Triple Crown shot so what was he doing on the track in WHITE pants?  I know he understands how easy it is to spook a high strung Thoroughbred.

I wish the New York Racing Association would investigate this matter.

Does it really matter at this point? Loose shoes happen all the time and horses still manage to finish fine, even win in some cases. Isn't it about time to let this go? He clearly shouldn't be compared to the likes of Seattle Slew and Secretariat like we (the media especially, but also all those fans so desperate for a Triple Crown they'd pin their hopes on a horse with so little experience) were so quick to do. He's still a Derby and Preakness winner and no one can take that away from him. But, I'd venture to say some good horses in the past have won facing worse...I can think of a few examples but there's no sense in going over them again.

Please. Let's move on. I won't even blame this on Dutrow, even though he was obviously busy concerning himself with doping his other horses. Big Brown got stepped on and the shoe came loose. But he didn't win, the thing was almost 3 weeks ago and it's time to move on.

Congrats Da'Tara, you won wire to wire.

Thank goodness for the true greatness that is Curlin.

Judy,

Beautifully said!

The SHOE incident was a very real problem! Try running in high heels, with no heel on one of the shoes and the nails that held it in play poking you in the heel of your foot, that is basically what Big Brown was doing. The horse has all the heart in the world and deserves to be 3 yr old of the year!! I am also in love with this horse and if I could find (and afford) a mare to breed to him that would have a genetic road block for his "soft" feet I would do it in a heartbeat!! I can't wait to see him run in the Travers and most of all the Breeders Cup at Santa Anita!

Geez - give it a break.  The race was lost and the excuses are not going to change it.  As far as I'm concerned BB was off his Winstrol for just enough time to clear his system, hence his agitation and performance.  If a horse (or any animal) is well and fit there is no need for drugs to enhance appetite, shine his coat and the myriad of excuses for just going through your stable every month and shooting everyone up regardless.  I see IEAH has made the statement that "none of their horses will be given steriods of any kind".  Let's see how long this stays in effect.  Yesterday!

The loose shoe was the major factor in him losing the race,but not the only one.Not only his shoe but in the picture the back bandage is turn up just feet after the start...My father had a real great 2year old in Colombia and in one race his shoe hung the entire race,he lost his only start and it all was because of the shoe hanging,it bothered the horse but he wasn't hurt or injured,it just didn't let him race the same as Big Brown.I think it is a big factor especially for a horse like Big Brown who is so stocky and muscular up top and Great horses sense a minor difference in footing there is no doubt about that.Not only that but alot of people tore down Big Brown,if u look back at the race it was like if he was not ment to win that day at all.The starter spooked him,he hits that one horse at the start and the shoe comes loose and then he hits Tale of Ekati on the first turn,to much obstacles just before the first turn. I want to see that Haskell....Show them up Big Brown..

War Admiral won the Belmont when he tore a part of his hoof off. I put more blame on a very weak training program that left alot out as far as conditioning for a mile and a half.  

Although I am glad that some of this speculation about BB's poor performance has a new angle, I am angry that no one seems to be looking as closely into Eight Belles. Maybe careful examination of photos would clarify what happened to cause the loss of the beautiful filly's life.  Instead we are harping about spilt milk over another failed bid for the Triple Crown. Where are our priorities? Many people noticed Eight Belle's sharply jerk her head to the right before the race was over. No one appears to want to examine photos to see if she stumbled, was stepped on, etc...

Lets stop with the excuses, he is just not the great horse everyone made him out to be. At this point he should not be catagorized in the same calibur as the real and true greats of the racing world.

I agree with Katherine and her comments about the starter. Yes it is time to move forward. I don't much like BBs human connections but I think BB is a terrific horse. I am optimistic that he will vindicate himself on the track when his "people" can get it together.

it was just a rough day for Big Boy & the H2O...the game is still on it's way back to the top of the sport's world where it belong's...stay tuned...LLTK!!!

Frank the Horseman and Katherine,

Ya'll beat me to the punch line!  What was the starter doing??  It seems to me that the series of events that lead to BB's poor showing started with that spook and yes, this needs to be investigated.  All of you in this blog that race know that what the starter did (and what he was wearing) was not protocol.  Take a look at that shot in the slide-show.  Also, the word is that BB is a no-sweater, so no wonder he had trouble given the conditions that day.  All of us with horses like this know how this can inhibit performance.  I find these factors much more compelling than bad training (I strongly disagree) or a poor ride or a looose shoe or lack of steroid help.

That said, I am so happy we have not seen the last of Big Brown on the track and am looking forward to a rebound in the Haskell!  

I definitely think it was a combination of the shoe (which as a horsewoman, I know a shoe like that can cause a great deal of pain, especially with the nail still there) and the grueling Triple Crown series!  Changes need to be made to the Triple Crown if we are ever to see another winner.  Big Brown was by far the best chance we've had in years, if not decades, and he couldn't pull it off.  The quality of horse running them NOW versus when Affirmed won is totally different, the horses actually have to have proven themselves on the track and won stakes races (at least to get into the Derby).  To expect a horse to win 3 grueling races in 5 weeks is ludicrious!  Even the great Curlin couldn't pull it off last year.  Changes need to be made.

But as for Big Brown, imagine running with a nail poking you in the foot with every step you take on that foot.  You wouldn't want to run either.  Desormeaux did NOTHING wrong in that race and should not be getting attacked for it.  Dutrow trained Big Brown the way he trained him for all the other races, so he is faultless in this, other than stopping the Winstrol too soon.  It came down to the shoe and being totally exhausted.

Good grief here we go again. The owners of this colt have set an all time record for excuses. Deep track, hot day, bad ride, starter on the track and now a loose shoe. Then all the folks who don't train or own RACE horses chime in and the farrier from wherever. Shoes come off a lot.Sometimes you catch it before the race and replace the shoe, horses pull the shoe, (racing plates are light weight) they run without a hind shoe, loose shoe none of that really matters if you have a superior horse or just a horse with heart. A lot of starters stand on the track, that's why you school your horses at the gate, there's always activity around the gate. Gary Brinson in California always stands right where the starter of the Belmont did. Missed training time is the most likely culprit and who knows about the steroids. That brings up a whole other subject with the IEAH policy on drugs,my guess for the grandstanding was trying to separate themselves from Ricky before the suspension was handed down. This tells a lot about him, how arrogant to have a positive in an stakes race on the undercard on racings biggest day and double the limit. Pretty funny reading when IEAH said they would pay for pre and post race testing. huh??? They may have to get a different trainer because Ricky talked about all the meds he gives and the reasons for them. Then Iavarone saying racing is perceived on a level with pro wrestling when they and Rick are the Vince McMahon's. Gary Stevens had to say something, IEAH is paying him as an advisor, thus the discomfort of a lost shoe comment.

One of my clients posted on this site briefly and said here and to anyone that would listen that this horse's connections are the worst thing to happen to racing in years and I think that has proven to be true. IEAH, just say your colt didn't run as expected and you're coming back. Then he he falls on his face again it's just like a lot of us think, good horse, mediocre competition. And what was Bob Baffert's deal with the 'best horse he's seen since he's been in racing'? Holy cow, I don't know if he didn't make it to the barn in time to ever see Silver Charm or Point Given or what he was focused on when he said this, plus he's a West Coast guy (well sort of) and this is a strictly East Coast/Midwest Colt.  

I do not think this matter has been answered satisfactorily at all.  It make me wonder if someone "arranged" that so that Big Brown would have a lesser chance of winning.  The starter knew Big Brown was in the one hole and going for a Triple Crown shot so what was he doing on the track in WHITE pants?  I know he understands how easy it is to spook a high strung Thoroughbred.>>

Katherine, I'm intrigued, who is this 'someone' who decided to fix a race in front of an audience of thousands with such an obvious tactic?  Maybe we should call Oliver Stone in to make a movie...

Talking to a close friend of mine who's a highly respected farrier over here in the UK, he told me that certainly the loose shoe COULD have affected BB; however it would have been obvious to Desormeaux that he was running on 3 legs - especially with it being a hind shoe - it would have affected his gait, he likened it to a car driving on ice.  As for the nail, well if that was troubling him he'd have felt lame.  No doubt at all.  There'd have been heat/bruising after the race too, so it would have been obvious.

Are we forgetting it was a deep track and those shoes are most likely aluminum.  A stong enough person can bend them with their hands.  Ive looked at the photos, and I dont see a loose shoe, I see a bent one.  Yes, possibly could have been a little uncomfortable, on hard ground.  But on a deep track?  I'm a little suspicious about the whole situation.  What are the odds he was going to come in dead last?  Now imagine those bets behind closed doors.  Look at the ride, think of the odds...

are you talking about bill shoemaker?

i'm a fan of Big Brown, he's a great horse whatever happened in the Belmont. What he did til now is already brillant anyway! Just one thing to me all horses in training should be free of drugs except if he realy needs it for health problems. But this is my opininon!!

The shoe incident for Brown was a very real problem, one comparable to running in high heels with one heel missing on one of the shoes???  And you would know this how?  You're kidding right?  This is the funniest analogy I've ever read.  The horse wasn't prepared in any way shape or form for that day.  Period.  He may well be a good horse and will prove it later, but there was no way he was going to win the Belmont on June 7, 2008.

I STILL TINK THERE IS NO MYSTERY, BB CLIPPED HEALS WITH THE #2, ISAID IT RACE DAY RIGHT AT THE START... I DON'T THINK WE REALLY GOT TO SEE HIS FULL POTENTIAL. THANKFULLY HE WILL RACE AGAIN.

"True Greatness"? "Steve Asmussen"?, Do'nt even try to talk about Big Brown, with Asmussen's history with suspensions. Hopefully we can see these two beasts run on the same track, unless Curlin decides to run on a "different track". GO BIG BROWN

Training, training, training

I wish people would quit whining and looking for "excuses". The horse got his butt handed to him.

Where are all the photos of the others in the race? You can't tell me they didn't encounter something unusual in their run. Big Brown nearly took out the maiden at the start but he still managed to beat Brownie. That could have cost him a higher placing and some purse money but I don't hear his connections whining. The fact of the matter is Big Brown faced adversity for the first time after having run virtually spotless races and he spit the bit. Maybe he doesn't have the heart to overcome those kind of issues where others in the past have. He is still so lightly raced against terribly weak competition and is unlikely to race more than 1 or 2 times more in his life so will will never know how good or not he really is. Kudos for winning the Derby and Preakness but keep in perspective he beat only members of his class and that class stinks so far. He has now also been whipped by members of the very same weak class.

What are we looking for here other than excuses? Should we re-run the race? It's over and official. Time to move on and get over it. Big Brown is not the second coming. Throughout history

and before the advent of hundreds of camera angles there certainly have been others who encountered similar problems. Some of them overcame and some like Brownie  weren't great enough to do so.

I think the shoe was definitely a problem.  So much so that Jill Burn (I think it was) said that she thought he was off in the right hind while being pulled up.  It turns out that she was right.

However, the shoe incident alone was not the only factor in Big Brown's loss.  The limited training as a result of his quarter crack played a major role.  You simply cannot condition a horse for a mile and a half race on one slow work in 3 weeks.

And who knows what Dutrow substituted for the steroids that he is supposedly no longer using.  Clenbuterol maybe?

The loose shoe was certainly a factor.  However, you can plainly see Big Brown shy coming out of the gate as someone (the starter) was standing right in front of him in the one path.  As he shy's he lugs out into the 2 path and a maiden horse, who broke even slower, clips heels and bends Browns back shoe.  He then gets pinned on the rail and unlike the Preakness, he can't relax as he undoubtedly feels his back shoe clanking around.   He is never able to relax as his shoe is loose, the whole way around. There is a reason most professional human runners don't run in flip flops.  Desormeaux knows his horse is not running and something is wrong with his normal gate so he has to pull him up.  How could he not? On the heels of Barbaro, George Washington and Eight Belles, there is no way he could have known it was a loose shoe and not something more significant.  Get the starter off the track and keep maidens out of Grade 1's and he at least has a chance to make history.  Let's only hope is feet hold up and he can redeem himself as he is no doubt one of the fastest and most talented horses to run in quite a while.  

EXcuses,excuses thats all i hear here, shoe is a Long way from his heart. please.Monica you said it right, this horse had no bottom at all, two breezes, and in the box to race, a joke. that is how good this horse is, anyone believe me any one could of done as good or better job with this horse, horse training is not rocket scientists work. just got to know more than the horse.

All I know is that if you are paying a shoer 1,500.00 bucks a pop to shoe your horse they better stay on. I would always pick their feet and pack them with mud after they run so I assume the groom of BB knew he had a loose shoe behind.Saying that,I know for a fact that they can and will run on a loose shoe.Folks this horse had foot problems all spring and I think they were crossing their fingers at some point and hoping for the best.I agree with some comments that the horse got himself beat.The Triple Crown is the toughest grind there is for 3 year olds. The mental attitude needed is so important and I think in part the lack of seasoning came into play. Remember Curlin danced this dance last year but he came around very quickly in the Preakness and Belmont.BB is still a pretty nice 3year old and I for one would like to see him run again. Like they say "throw that one out".

I agree totally with SpringsMom. It all goes back to 'Why was the starter on the track?'. He caused the chain of events that robbed BB of the Triple Crown. How about a rematch?

big browns loss was disappointing but when he demolishes his compitition in the Haskell everyone will forget about the belmont and call him a champion again

in the belmont the horse wansnt happy from the start and you could tell, he normally is pricking his ears and looks happy when he runs, this rume his ears were pinned to the back of his head, he was angry. as soon as he left the starting gate there was someone in his way and he got scared bumping the 2 horse and his shoe becoming loose and now hes being hit with a nail in his back foot the whole time with his already sensetive feet. then he tried to get closer to the pace and got kicked by da'tara then once he moved to the outside take of ekatis jockey was focused on onlykeepingbig brown in the center of the track so he was running in sand basically.

thats like someone whos runnig on a track next to you kicks you and forcing you to run in sand with flip-flops.

no matter how good you are; your not gonna win

and with this whole he wasnt on setroids thing, he was a speical horse before that; whenhe was with his first owner he blew away the field and he wasnt no anything.and he was off steroids for a while before the belmont

but i hope dutrow learned a lesson and that theres no foregone conclusions in racing. i hope IEAH stables replaces dutrow with a trainer like Zito or Matz, a modest trainer who knows what their doing with horses

I was blessed with owning and campaigning a top caliber ,multiple graded stakes winning millionaire with absolutely horrendous feet. More Equilox than real hoof , glue ons, etc..he won , tenaciously,and without ill effects almost every race, loosing one or both front shoes...springing them behind, etc...while I would surely say it's not a positive, it is certainly NOT a deal breaker to the extent that this situation is being proffered up. heart trumps a lot of things, adreneline hides most all pain from a horse in the midst of competition..highly unlikely that shoe situation would cause the drastic reversal in form Big Brown displayed, as I dont think anyone would accuse him of being "heartless and unable to run through some comprimising physical circumstances" He's an awesome athelete, gifted and a stellar competitor..sorry, not buying the shoe thing..at all, echoes of safety pin bru-ha-ha ring in my head .

Training? Starter? Shoe?

Dirt in face? Heat? Deep Track?

If BB wins the Haskell, then its all of the Above!(chances are none of the causes will repeat). If he fails to show - Then its the steroids!!

It's all in the Haskell!!!

Watch the video closely.  It was the worst ride I've even seen. I was also surprised to see the starter on the track. Kent should have kept him on the rail at least thru the first turn and then let him run his own race. While I realize he had to pull him up before he ran over the lead horse, there was no need to yank him all over the track. Gotta believe the loose shoe bothered BB also. And to pull him up at the end was EMBARRASING! Brown fought him all the way.  So many are putting this horse down - but he DID win the Derby and the Preakness. Anyone remember that?  There are MANY horses that never won the Belmont/Triple Crown and went on to make their own mark in racing history.  Guess we'll see what he can do in the next couple of months. Go Big Brown!  

It was inevitable Draynay would latch on to the excuses. Blame the maiden when it was the Big Ole Browneye who almost took him out by veering right? As for getting boxed in that is part of racing and every horse faces that, Brownie just couldn't handle it like a champ. Get a life. The best Derby ever? That was a mediocre time put up against a bunch of weakling 3 yr olds. The Fla. Derby full of talent? Laughable, still a bunch of weak 3 yr olds of which a couple have gotten better SINCE then but at that time were nothing. It doesn't matter what another horse does 3 months down the road if when you face him he he's not ready or hasn't reached what will be his top form and you have. Brownies run against creampuffs outside of Eight Belles and she was not far behind him while not even the best 3 yr old filly at that time. Some will develop from the time he faced them but the reality is none were very good when he beat them. The only way they got their previous wins was that they were also facing a weak bunch and one of them had to be a winner. Whine all you want, grasp any excuse like Brownie's the only horse in history to have had trouble, the great ones overcome and he got his butt handed to him.

He hasn't proven anything except that he beat up on a horribly weak group and they've now beaten him up some too.

I believe the reason for the shoe on 'BB' to become bent or loose is a result of Desormeaux's decision to get outside of horses on the first turn in the Belmont, instead of having patience and waiting until they swung onto the backside to get out if he was so intent on doing so. The shoe may have been a contributing factor however I think a combination of other things led to "BB's" loss, for example: three days of missed training, only one work between the Preakness and Belmont, no shot of Cintrol, oh and a horrible ride. I'm not degrading Desormeaux however the Belmont stakes was the worst ride I ever saw in a major race, by anyone including ronnie Franklin. At least 'Bid' hit the board in the Belmont.

I think Nick Zito said it the best when he said that Big Brown did not run his race, his horse did.

I believe many of the other comments contributed to him loosing, the steroids I think played in a factor as did the toll of 3 races so close together, lack of training also a possibility.

As for the shoe I have to agree to a point but I remember Skip Away ran in Gold Cup and raced hard while the Mandella duo horses one was Gentleman I believe. That day he pulled his shoe off during the race so he ran with 3 shoes along with having some issues after getting loose the prior week of the race, and still managed to pull off a win with 3 shoes........ I feel the shoe was probably not as bad as the pictures showed.

Look forward to seeing him race again in the Haskell.

Sorry I don't buy the "out to get him theory".Hey that's horse racing if you get a bad trip or a rider skrews up.KD had time to get out of trouble, plus he was on a ton of horse.If the nail was bothering him he would not have walked off sound.

Wanda, his front 'shoes' cost 550 per set. He has regular racing plates on the hind.

Draynay, Please let the Haskell get here soon 8/3 is too far away, although the steroid ban by IEAH doesn't go into effect until 10/1/2008,hmm. Yes the colt won the Derby and the Preankness, yippee. It's been addressed over and over: times, Beyer, competition(or lack thereof). Also, he did not pull the shoe off,  what we say is the shoe was 'sprung' and as soft and pliable as racing plates are it went back in place a couple of strides later RD said it was spread but was back in place, no blood no bruising, nothing The deep track- Rick asked them to keep it deep because of the quarter crack, he wasn't fit enough due to missed training, the best excuse that RD had and he biffed it. Michelle, the colt was purchased at the April Keeneland 2 yr old in training sale,if you keep up with all of this you know what everyone is saying happens when horses get to their barns from these sales.  Another colt J Be K showed the same amazing turn of foot and is a nice sprinter.

(Lance & TuTu, I took a break to do bookwork, maybe you notice my first post at 4:09 A.M.)

Jason, that wasn't a cheap shot, it's called gumption. Even though you alienated one of my owners, props to you on the RD blowhard situation. I caught ESPN at 3:00 this morning and they're much rougher on RD than you were, another humiliation for racing and now the Asmussen revisited deal.

EXCUSES...WELL WHEN YOU HAVE  A LOW TIRE WITH A SMALL DENT AND YOU ARE RACING FOR SOMETHING THAN YOUR CHANCES ARE  SLIM TO BAD OF WINNING REGARDLESS OF COMPETITION.AND OF COURSE THAT IS AN EXCUSE,HE LOST YEA,SO DID SECRETARIAT,MAN O WAR,CITATION,NEARCO,BUCKPASSER,AFFIRMED I CAN KEEP GOING...ONE MORE THING,COMPARE THE AMOUNT OF HORSES(COMPETITION) THAT IS OUT THERE TODAY TO THE 1900'S,1920,1940,1960,1970,1980,1990..THERE IS MUCH MORE COMPETITION NOW THAN EVER IN NUMBERS,JAPAN HAS HIGH CLASS RACING,HONG KONG,AUSTRALIA,EUROPE,SOUTH AMERICA AND O YES DUBAI..SOMETIMES WE FAIL TO REALIZE THAT MAN O WAR RAN AGAINST THE BEST IN NEW YORK AND THAT IS NOT HIS FAULT,EVERYTHING IN LIFE ADVANCES BUT THE MASSES GET BIGGER AND THAT IS A FACT.LETS GIVE BIG BROWN AND CURLIN A LITTLE BIT MORE RESPECT FOR THEIR ACCOMPLISHMENTS...IS IT EVER HARDER NOW TO WIN THE DERBY AND WORLD CUP THAN IT WAS TEN YEARS AGO AND BEFORE THAT....YES!!!!

To Atthebarn2 I read on this website(Bloodhorse.com) that was the amount it cost to fly him out and shoe him.And yes he had regular plates on behind but they were turndowns which are legal in New York.One question,do you leave out a nail with turndowns? I don't see why but I don't know cause they don't run with turn downs here.

Draynot you put the nail on the head(no pun intended).

I read all these comments and agree with some and disagree with others. Pre race, no meds. Most people who are taken off something after being on it forever...feel like crap. Horses? Who knows. Being a little cranky, I know my cousins horse was Cantankerous as heck for a while after being clean.

Spooked to the right out of the gate, got stepped on. Shoe offset. Gets kicked as the Jockey runs him up into the back of another horse. Ok so thats a pretty good handful right there.

The thing that I noticed during the whole race was he seemed constantly fighting the jockey. His head was constantly jerking and he never seemed to get that stretch of the neck that we saw in previous races. He was holding his own finally on the outside where we thought we would see that beautiful stretching stride take over. But his head pulled back and to the right again and he never got it going. At the same time he started dropping off as the Jockey pulled him off. To me....something was bothering him....what only he knows. The wife brought up that his head actions looked like something was not right from the start.

Can't wait to see him run again or just watch him enjoy the rest of his life.  

When I read the dislodged shoe story and that BB may have been running on a nail, my first thought was "I thought they glued his shoes on" because of the quarter crack problems.  Wouldn't having 1 shoe glued and 3 shoes nailed make the horse unbalanced? (I'm being sarcastic here.)

The loss was caused by many things, but truly great horses persevere to do what it takes to win.  BB is not yet in that category. Thankfully, he was not seriously injured and still has the opportunity to prove himself.

My personal belief is that the loss was caused by a combination of:

1) BB's inexperience mentally - he got frustrated with jockey, circumstances, etc. and shut down,

2) lack of stamina - whether due to training or breeding, and

3) the fact that he was running without the benefit his normal steroid injection.

Dutrow said he only gives his horses Winstrol to make their coats shiny and encourage them to clean up their feed dishes better. Excuse me, but doesn't more food help equate to bigger muscles? Steroids also helps muscles repair tissue and recover faster.

Also, if BB had been running on a nail, wouldn't that have led to a puncture wound with bleeding, or at the very least a bruise or some lameness? I also thought of War Admiral catching himself and tearing a portion of hoof off as well.  

Enough with the excuses. Not sure who said it earlier, but the other horses also would have stories to tell as to their performance in the race and what might have been!

Thanks for the forum!

Wanda, I don't recall seeing that he left a nail out, I saw that BB pulled the shoe lose. McKinlay is the high dollar hoof specialist and his job was fine although they wanted to shoe him on Saturday morning and RD vetoed that for Friday. A regular farrier plated him on the back, if they chose to fly their own in, so be it. Turn downs are kind of prone to being pulled off, it happens a lot, his was just sprung. I was interested in your technique of packing mud in a hoof, i've heard of painting them but never packing mud, usually try to get rid of that. Is it a special mud? They do things different up North I guess. I could ask my Dad how they did it in the old days. Danylson, The ultimate comparison, running time.

It's getting harder to win because the trend to breed for speed then run at a distance. And most of the experts including Trainers who have won all three races are saying conditioning yes, the shoe, definitely a stretch there.

I think there were two major factors. First, as others have mentioned, he did not react well to being in tight quarters etc. That can be a function of lack of experience or simply his disposition. It somewhat reminds me of Bernardini who was a monster as long as no one actually challenged him but melted when confronted by Invasor. Second, BB was off his routine due to the quarter crack and off his meds, and of course horses thrive on predictable routines. Given that nobody remarked upon the shoe in the immediate aftermath of the Belmont, I think it's an excuse. Out of all of this, I think that the jockey has gotten a lot of ill-deserved criticism. After the tragedy in the Derby and of course remembering Barbaro, Pine Island, George Washington etc. he was taking care of the welfare of his horse, who was clearly off his game that day.

Atthebarn2 you can pack a hoof with any kind of prepared mud but whats common up here is drillers mud. It has some mineral propertys in it and its mainly for drawing out heat in the foot.Thanks for answering my question about turndowns.

TRACY:  Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, someone who FINALLY gets it.(a few others did as well) Right on all counts. Trying to get through to some of these folks on here is like trying to tell an owner his horse doesn't belong in an allowance race, and maybe doesn't belong on the track. They only hear what they want to hear, don't read thoroughly and don't listen to the people who are the most expert NOT ME, but HOF trainers, world class farriers and so forth.

Get Over It!  Big Brown lost the Belmont. Will we go on for all time over analyzing the race and why he lost?  He lost to a better horse (that day at least). End of Story.  It takes a great horse to win three big races in five weeks. His training was interupted and he had a quarter crack and he has a jerk for a trainer. I have seen horses run with shoes turned sideways and no shoes at all and I doubt it had anything to do with the outcome of the race.  As for the starters presence and all of the other factors, that's Horse Racing. Let's acknowledge his Derby and Preekness wins and move on. There are lots of races coming up to analyze. After the Haskell we will know. Funny I didn't read much about the Winstrol factor.

Two things doomed Big Brown on Belmont day 1) What the hell was the starter doing standing on the track in front of Big Brown ??? 2) Why would a maiden be in the Belmont so he can step on Big Brown and change history by knocking his shoe ?

How do you expect any horse to win a race with a shoe flipping around and bent ????

Don't tell me about conditioning or anything else that is just nuts. The horse got one of the worst breaks in racing history.  He got stepped on by a Maiden in a Triple Crown Race....

OK, no.

Point 1 - Back in the '04 Derby that Smarty Jones won, Zito had a four or five horses entered into the race. The Cliff's Edge among them. I don't remember correctly, but it was either three shoes or two, but The Cliff's Edge lost them. So;

HE RAN TOTALLY WITHOUT THE SHOES

for at least a part of the race. He finished FOURTH.

If the American Farrier's association said it wouldn't have caused him to do so poorly, they're right. They know what they're talking about.

And the starter thing is BS.

If you look at the Belmont race photos from the last couple years you'll see the same person standing there.

It was the training. Compare what Secretariat worked prior to the Belmont in comparison to the measly 5/8th Big Brown went.  This shoe thing is ridiculous.

Hey Bloodstalker do you mind giving out the name of the good horse you owned or at least some of his Graded Stakes wins?

Tracy same comment as Atthebarn2. Also Winstrol is given to keep them eating after they run because some racehorses lose more weight than others.Once you lose that weight it's tough to get it back on if they're not cleaning up at night.

I would love for the trainer,owner, blacksmith, and jockey to just SUCK IT UP! You lost get over it, you did not have the best horse that day and I'm sick and tired of all the excuses and whining. It bothered me a whole lot when he was pulled up in the race since he was obviously fine and created an unnecessary spectacle. I want everyone to move past this if he's going to be one of the all time greats and thats what his owner wants him to be then let him run more than 2 more races and prove it. Stop running scared and making excuses!

Draynay. You must be the most obstinate contrarian known to mankind, or maybe you're Dutrow's party buddy, if you get my drift.

EVERYBODY who's anybody in racing is saying the shoe had ZERO,Zilch nothing, NADA to do with his lack of run. Even RD said it when he was first asked about it, but since he doesn't know much I guess you can choose to ignore the guy who trained your SUPER DUPER colt.The shoe went back on pretty much as it was, within a few strides. What you are talking about happening is HORSE RACING!!!! STARTERS STAND ON THE TRACK ALL of The Time, in fact I'm watching the 5th at Belmont and he was on the track. Heck they even do it at Ruidoso Downs and it takes a brave sucker to stand on the track when two year old Quarter Horses come pinballing out of the gate. Some starters do stand on towers, but the ones that don't apparently think they can talk to the assistant starters and get a better perspective of what's going on. Oh and by the way Rags nearly fell at the start and still won the Belmont. I'm starting to think you aren't even a racing fan, you just like to p.o. people.

Hey Draynay how come you didn't complain about the starter before this? Lots of starters stand there and no other trainer commented on it.If he had been standing in front of BB when the gate opened we would have been bloging about the poor dead starter.He broke outward into the "maiden", that horse broke cleanly.If you make contact with another horse their legs are flying everywhere and yes they can get stepped on.That's a reaction not because he's a non-winner.Get over it. The shoe was a non-issue,and I've seen horses get a worse break than he got.The bent shoe was a non-issue also because the horse was traveling fine until KD put the brakes on. Do us all a favor and come back with a comment that makes sense.

Most likely the "mud" that Wanda was referring to is similar to the poultice that we use to draw heat from the horse's legs. The feet are packed with this cool wet poultice and then wrapped to keep the poultice in. There is usually epsom salts in this poultice to draw out any inflammation.It's like a nice comfy pair of slippers to the horse. As for the real mud keep picking that out. LOL.

I am tired of all of the talk about changing the Triple Crown.  Breed and train the horses to run, don't change the dates to accommodate faulty breeding practices.  Horses are not bred to run 3 races in 5 weeks, they are not trained to do this and therefore it is difficult for them to do so.  Race them for 2 - 3 years and breed from the sound, durable horses.  Avoid the 3 race speedsters that do not have the durability to have a career.  Turn them out and let them build up their strength naturally, don't keep them in and give them drugs to have the best looking sales horses.  The triple crown will come with sound breeding strategies, sound training procedures, and sound racing strategies.  Moving dates does not promote any of this.

Anyone who says the shoe had no effect doesn't know what they are talking about.  How do they know, did they ask the horse?  A bent shoe flipping around can't help and explains why Big Brown was having problems from the start. The horse has dominated every race and won easily he comes out of the gate at Belmont and gets stepped on by a maiden and changes history. he horse wasn't tired he just couldn't run with a shoe half off.  There is no doubt the shoe was the reason Big Brown could not run. I am sure no freak accident will happen in the Haskell. He will take off and be long gone before the others know what hit them.

Spring'smom83 is right, breeding tells every time. Changing the dates or the distances are not the answers, good, sound breeding is.

Wrong Draynay the shoe was NOT even half off. You got to do better than that. And I see your back to predicting how he's going to run in his next start. That's scary cause you were dead wrong last time.

Does anyone remember the safety pin Spectacular Bid stepped on the morning of the '79?

Big Brown will have to come back and perform, but he'll never be a mile and half horse,

I have been going to the track for over 40 years and have seen quit a few things and some that just can not be explained. No one wants to say it but as the saying goes the truth shall set you free. The only thing that changed with this horse was in Dutrows own words this horse will race steroid free in the belmont. ANYONE who watched his ALW win, Fla Dby, KY Dby, Or Preakness saw one fired up into the bit in the post parde monster. The way he looked in the paddock and on the track at belmont he should have been running at your local track for a 50-k dollar claimer. It didnt even look like the same horse. I loved this horse when i saw him in his second race. The more i found out about his dirty connections ( again the truth hurts sometimes) the less i liked him. How many other trainers have you ever heard of according to Jerry Bailey that bet 186-k dollars on St Liam in the Breeders Cup. Performance enhancing drugs are called that for a reason. Big Brown again according to Dutrow was given a shot of the same stuff that is going to nail the other BB Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, and everyother athlete. Clean up the game!

Judy, I'm very familar with a poultice, whether used for inflammation on a leg ar as a hoof treatment for an abscess. Just the way she put it about packing mud in the hoof, sounded a little off.

I know a lot of the older horsemen (like those in their 80's)  and others have some concoctions and I was wondering what it was exactly.

I think we just need to give up on Draynay. Let's just wait until the Haskell if that even happens and if we can listen to his story over and over again until then. He seems to think the shoe was flopping around all the way around the track, from everything that has been said and all of the observations of his own trainer post race, that just simply was not the case. Draynay, have you ever seen a race plate up close? A human can bend them with their bare hands. If it was flopping around, the law of physics say it would have come off. And don't say nothing can happen in the Haskell, as Jason said in his opening remark,there are no foregone conclusions when it involves horses.

the starter standing that far up the track and some six or seven feet from the rail was criminal. the ride was horrible. the shoe didn't help. the lost training was big. Streoids not a factor. he's a great horse. if his feet don't let him down and the jock can find pair and be patient his heart will prove it.

Athebarn2 are you saying I'm old? I'm under 80 okay!

Jason, I must say you really know how to spark discourse and debate. Bob, it's not criminal for a starter to stand on the track. If it's so distracting to the horse then imagine how the assistant starter affects the horse. I do not believe the colt is that mentally fragile, if so he wouldn't have been able to win the Belmont anyway. I don't know if you know the effects of steroid withdrawal but that definitely could have been a factor.I just didn't think BB looked like himself after the race, that picture of him with the owner, looked like a different horse, maybe it was the heat but he didn't get worked up enough to draw up like that. As far as the steroid helping them to get into their feed tub, This particular steroid was supposedly only given once a month,it is designed to build muscle mass in humans and pharmacalogically should have the same cumulative effect on a horse, that is in debate though.It is a synthetic derivative of Testosterone and we all know how agressive that makes males. And as for Draynay, he's like that obnoxious know it all little kid in 3rd grade that nobody liked. In fact that may be him. John Paul, is that you?

Miss Wanda, I would never say that about you. I'm sure you are a lovely young lady. I'm no spring chicken myself but the 80 year old I was thinking of is my 88 year old father and his peers. Also I know the Native Americans in my home state have some very useful home remedies as do a lot of the ranchers and farmers and I'm all for the holistic approach and willing to learn.

Jason, you hit the nail on the head there (oops two thirds of a pun/ p u, get it 3rd graders?) That's the mark of a good writer, keep people talking about something since the only thing worse than talking it to death is not talking about it at all. I'd like to see you tackle the debacle of Asmussen, Dutrow and Levine all in a row. Bad news.

DRAYNAY HAS A POINT OF THE SHOE BEING SOMEWHAT TO HIS FAILURE TO RUN COMPETIVELY.WHAT I LOVE THE MOST IS HORSE RACING FANS ARE QUICK TO CONDONE A ONCE ADORED HERO FOR A LACKLUSTER PERFORMANCE. OKAY HE LOST AND BADLY TOO AND WHEN EVERYONE WAS WATCHING..HAVING SAID THAT, I THINK THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE STILL THINK BIG BROWN IS A GREAT HORSE. THE STEROID STUFF IS SO MISREPRESENTED,WHAT ABOUT HORSES USING LASIX,PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THAT DOESN'T ENHANCE THE ABILITY TO RUN.WHAT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER DRUGS LIKE PAINKILLERS AND ETC..THAT IS A THIN LINE AND ANYONE CAN JUSTIFY THE USE OF THEM FOR A QUOTE "GOOD BENEFIT". AND CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG BUT IF YOU GIVE A HORSE PAIN KILLERS,AREN'T U ENHANCING HIS CHANCES TO PERFORM BETTER,BECAUSE WITHOUT THE PAINKILLER,THE PAIN WOULD BE THEIR TO DETRACT FROM DOING ANY NORMAL OKAY MOVEMENT..SEE WHAT I AM SAYING ANYTHING CAN ENHANCE PERFORMANCE OR DETRACT PERFORMANCE,YOU CAN GIVE A HORSE THAT HAS A LARGE AMOUNT OF VITAMINS(WHICH ARE GOOD) AND IT CAN BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AS WELL.SO LETS JUST BE PATIENT AND GIVE BIG BROWN A CHANCE IF HE WAS FLUKE OR REALITY..ISN'T THAT WHAT HAPPEN TO SPECTACULAR BID,HE LOST THE TRIPLE CROWN AND THEN BROKE THE WORLD RECORD AT 1 1/4 MILE LIKE THE NEXT YEAR.....WAIT AND SEE

I haven't been called Miss Wanda since my road trip to Canterbury Downs years ago and met a dad and his two sons from Lousianna.Eddie Martin and his brother and dad,gentlemen all. Seriously I live in an oil rich area and this stuff is used to put down the holes at oil rigs.It's alot cheaper than prepared mud that Farnum,Race Horse Products put out. I'm sure you know the bottom line is the bottom line and it costs alot of money per day to keep a racehorse going even without the vet bills!

Wanda I also saw that you met John Longden and  you were looking at a photo from 1966 as you and Monica reminisced about those days and knew you probably aren’t 22, but then I realized I saw John Longden ride and Shoemaker too, when he was in his twenties. I realized then that was a long time ago, of course I was only about  2 months old then.  Well I guess I can dream that any way. My Mother is 81 and she never misses a chance to tell people, because everyone always tells her she doesn’t look or act like she’s even seventy.

Atthebarn2 here is an old trick that my father taught me, when you breed a mare after a month or two check her throatlatch on her bridle or halter if you've had to let it out a notch then she's in foal, a mare's neck thickens when she's in foal. He was taught this trick by an old Cherokee Indian. I told a person this once and they did not believe me and swore up and down that their mare was not in foal, well 6 months later she dropped a nice little filly.

I'm obnoxious ? No I am tired of people that know nothing about horse racing and steroids flapping their gums and sounding like clowns.  Show me one study...any study that shows Winstrol makes a horse run faster. Trainers have been using these drugs for many years and because haters want to hate they stick it on Big Brown.

Wanda... Big Brown got a bad rap in the Belmont but where were you after all the other races he won??? Make sure you are here after the Haskell... let me know if Big Brown winning by 10 is enough for you.

Oh and one more thing.  Smooth Air, Pyro, and Big Brown have accomplished just as much as Hard Spun, Street Sense, and Curlin at this point in their careers so before you rate this years talent let the year and the races go on until the end. Oh and you Curlin fans don't worry about him taking on Big Brown after he sees the Haskell he will be on the first plane to France to get his butt whipped in the Arc.

Changing the triple crown in any manner will diminish it.  There would be no point to having it anymore.  If it is made easier it loses it's importance.  Who would care?  Real Quiet lost it by a nose!  There will be another horse, we've come close it will happen again.

Draynay!!!  Where have you been?  I've missed you!  It's so nice to read your posting.  The only thing you don't understand is that everyone has an opinion.  Not everyone feels the way you do.  I know you love Big Brown and that's great.  You posted he would win the triple crown and he didn't.  I have never said he was not a good horse I just don't understand why everyone is beating his loss to death and wanting inquiries about everything that happened that day.

He lost.  Let's move on.  Let's see what he does in the Haskell.  If he returns to form he will win.

I don't understand your vehemence on all this.  You are one miserable person and I know you have had some terrible personal problems to deal with and I hope the worst is behind you.  I have many things in my life that cause anxiety as well and I love horse racing, it is a release valve for me as I'm sure it is for you.  I just don't get your nastiness.  I don't get it.  I don't even know you but you love to attack and say spiteful things.  If that makes you happy, have at it.

oh draynay, did you actually read any of my post? You said the same thing I said almost verbatim. I SAID NO ONE COULD TAKE THE DERBY AWAY FROM HIM. Seriously, if you are going to tell me to "get a life", which is funny since you obviously spent some of your's replying to what I had to say, then perhaps you should at least comprehend my point. I said, LET'S MOVE ON. I said nothing about what I did or didn't expect him to. You can argue his Derby was one of the best performances of all time if you want, but it does not equate hastily comparing him to Secretariat or Seattle Slew, who did manage to win the Triple Crown, and against better competition. That's a fact and that was my point.

The fact that a maiden was in the race is pointless. He was entered, he ran, now what? You might have thought it was the wrong decision, but guess what? It wasn't yours to make and if BB had been so great, neither the maiden nor the many other factors would have mattered. It takes a lot to win the Triple Crown, THAT'S WHY THERE'S ONLY BEEN 11.

atthebarn2, you're right, we should just give up on draynay. It seems being nonsensical pleases him or her too much to consider other points of view. So, after this retort, hopefully I won't have to defend myself anymore and I'll have some time to go out and "get a life."

and BIG BROWN--running Curlin on a "different track" will only serve to demonstrate his dominance there too. I'm aware of the suspensions and I said nothing about Asmussen, so test Curlin for drugs. If he's dirty, I'll retract.

Draynay. You need to take a chill pill. Yes you had an incident with your wife's injury (I've been reading this a long time without commenting) but your vehemence is unwarranted. You say that no one knows what they are talking about, but I guarantee you that there are a number of licensed trainers and owners or former on here. I even know that there have been a couple of veterinarians and pharamacists as well as the head of a clinical drug trial program posting about steroids, I know those people. Unless you are one of those professionals you are the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. Some of the top trainers, owners, farriers and veterinarians of the racing industry are all saying the same thing, you know more than all of them?  Your last post is a little scary and borders on hysteria. If you do not rely on horse racing as your livelihood like some of us do then your vehemence is out of place. Unless you are the owner or trainer of Big Brown, then your defense of him is also irrational. Love or hate the horse but 5years from now he'll just be a memory to you. As far as the haters, the trainer is the one who inspired that, no one hates the horse and he could care less if any one does. You obviously have your beliefs but those may not be completely accurate either.

Draynay, No Winstrol may not directly make the horse run faster but it has properties that aid the factors that enable a horse to run faster. If his trainer hadn't acted the way he did and hadn't just gotten another drug suspension, this conversation wouldn't have taken place. Jason, you apologized that someone was posting under Draynay's name earlier but throughout the discussions, no one has interacted with the rest of the posters like he has,mean, spiteful and bitter. I'm starting to wonder what his direct investment in the horse is.

Draynay I had BB in my roadtotheroses stable after he broke his maiden and Jason can verify comments I made before and after the Derby and Preakness.

Atthebarn2 I met Johnny Longden when he was in his 80's so no I did not know him when he rode. The picture is one he signed and gave to my husband and myself when we were invited to dinner with him and his wife.

I'm sure the shoe bothered him a little---but the real problem is overall lack of training through the whole Triple Crown.  He barely trained between the Derby and the Preakness and then missed days and was trained (if you can even call it that!!) VERY lightly before the Belmont.  I'm sure that has to do with his problem feet and the quarter crack, but his lack of training would be akin to an Olympic athlete deciding to "take it easy" for a couple of weeks before the gold medal event and then believing they could still perform at peak level and win.  

Wanda, I remember you saying that, must have been great for you. I still get a little star struck with certain people. From your comments I'm guessing I'm a lot older than you,I saw Jerry Bailey when he first started riding at Sunland Park, Mikey Smith at Santa Fe, Pat Day in Colorado I think it was and anyway now I really feel old, maybe I'll have a bite and a rest before I go back to work, have a horse I've been working on fixing for a few days, maybe I'll try the poultice. Julie that is interesting. unfortunately we have to pay huge vet bills,can't risk not knowing when the foals are coming and last one we had to give the mare a hormone to prevent losing the foal.

Tigger, I liked your post and agree completely

I think Big Brown is a good horse but hasn't proven himself one of the greats just yet. We can speculate all day long as to why he didn't win but we'll never have the answer.  Seems to me like it was a combination of all the things mentioned but most of all that he simply wasn't in condition for this race - no fault of his! I'd like to share something I just read - the training schedule of a Belmont Stakes winner during the three weeks between the Preakness and the  Belmont:  5-23 Preakness, 5-24 shipped to Belmont, 25th-26th walked, 27th-28th-29th galloped, 5-30 worked 5f, 5-31 galloped, 6-1 worked 1 mile/galloped out 1 1/8, 2nd-3rd galloped, 6-4 worked 3f, 6-5 went 1 1/4 miles in 2:07, 6-6 walked, 7th-8th galloped, 6-9 went 1 1/2 miles in 2:38 2/5, 10th-11th walked, 6-12 worked 6f, 6-13 BELMONT STAKES.  AND that was his 6th race in 9 weeks! Quite a different training schedule than what Big Brown just had. (Not that I think that was the best schedule either but it illustrates my point and in reading about the training of some of the triple crown winners they were also similar to what I just wrote). By the way, the horse was Native Dancer.  I sure hope they never change the triple crown races or they might as well just do away with it altogether.  The glory of those that won would surely be diminished if we just go ahead and make it easier to win.  It's suppose to be hard - that's why there have only been 11 winners in over 100 years!  Draynay I understand your enthusiasm for Big Brown - I am the same with Native Dancer - and I hope he does well for the rest of the season.  Enjoy watching him while he's with us!

Everybody has their point of view including Draynay. I think in some weird twisted way we miss him when he's not around. It keeps this blog interesting and I love it! It keeps me coming back and I've talked to many many interesting people and yes I've gotten mad on occasion (thanks for putting up with me Jason) but all in all it's great to be here.

I have ridden horses for lots of years, more than I actually want to admit to. I had a mare that was a retired race horse and she was always throwing or partially throwing her right rear shoe. When she did this she always threw her head up and to the rear (like Big Brown) grunted and ran like she was runnning on ice, slipping etc.  She attempted to run, as this is what she was born and trained to do, but her gait would be "off" and I pulled her up just like KD did with BB.

Any horse I have ridden that has a loose shoe will try to keep going and take care of business but can't as their balance is off and at times even dirt causes them pain under the foot and the shoe.  Poor BB!! (REALLY) a loose shoe after a horse running into him, KD up and at the reins driving him like a Porsche in the Gran Am ,nearly running into the rear end of another horse, pulled back and urged forward around another horse, and a hot and humid day!! I'm surprised BB just didn't stop instead of waiting to be slowed up. His heart and stamina were there but the odds were against him.

Oh, by the way Mr. Kent D, I apologize, you did do the right thing. BB is healthy and will race another day. No Triple Crown this year. But not the heart break of another Barbaro or his new girlfriend, Eight Bells.

Atthebarn2

I really enjoyed your posts!  Thanks so much for taking on Draynay.  He is so nasty and acts like he is an expert on everything.

He wants everyone to think like he does...Big Brown is the greatest horse in 30 years.  Well I just can't buy that, not after the horses I've seen.

I'm glad you saw that conversation Wanda and I were having about Johnny Longden and George Royal.  When I met Johnny I was amazed at his hands.  They were so big and muscular and you know he was a little man!  Had to have been all those years of riding and controlling those horses.  I also was involved in some associations for retired horses and helped with a benefit that was a dinner to honor Charlie Whittingham.  I met Shoemaker there and Charlie and Arthur Hancock whom I had met previously at Stone Farm.  Charlie was a great guy and a marvelous trainer.  He let me come to his barn at Santa Anita to see Sunday Silence.  Oh, what a thrill.  I loved that horse.  I miss Charlie training.  I went to his funeral and what a loss that was.  I have been fortunate enought to visit Secretariat, Affirmed, Alyadar, Spectacular Bid, Najinksy, Mr. Prospector, Halo, John Henry, Forego and many others that are all gone now.  The one thing I would mention is that The Bid was on the far side of Claiborne as he didn't dulicate himself.  The previous year he had been next to Secretariat.  Bid was near the road on the side of the farm.  I saw him there and stopped my car.

I walked over to the low stone wall and he stood there looking at me and nickering, like he wanted to talk to me.  He was so beautiful

and I took lots of pictures.  I think he wanted me to come up to him but I didn't dare trespass.  Now I wish I had.  I wish I had petted him, like I did Secretariat and Seattle Slew and Affirmed.

I know you work hard for your living but I envy the closeness to the horses and the action.  Thanks so much for your insights.  I have really enjoyed it.

In response to Draynay's post re: being stepped on by a Maiden, while a Maiden is a horse that has not won a race, I believe Guadalcanal has had more starts than BB. I'm not positive on that, I couldn't find the exact article where I had read that info. But in his most recent race which was May 23rd, he was beaten only by a nose in a 1 1/2-mile turf race at Churchill Downs. The point his trainer made was that he was greatly improving with each start and that it was hard to find 1 1/2 mile races for 3 year olds, which he felt was Guadalcanal's best distance. Guadalcanal MET THE REQUIREMENTS to be in the Belmont.

It wasn't the Maiden's fault that BIG BROWN BROKE POORLY AND VEERED INTO HIS PATH. Again, as I stated before, I believe BB's inexperience cost him on that particular day.

not going to change TC...EXPOSURE & PROMOTION...LLTK...

There's a laundry list of reasons -take 2 from column A; 3 from column B.  Any one or a number of them could have been the reason for his loss.  However, I'm not buying into the "he wasn't good enough" or "he doesn't have the distance pedigree".  Not after having seen him run in the 5 races prior to the Belmont.  This is a horse that truly enjoys running and glories in competition and confrontation.  

Whatever happened that day, we'll never know for sure.

Personally, I think he was momentarily distracted seeing the starter.  He dumped Kent D. to the ground in the Derby upon seeing Eight Belles laying on the track.  This is the same horse that refuses to have a garland of flowers laid on his back.  

Guadalcancal caught his right rear foot which dislodged the shoe.  Maybe it didn't hurt him, but it would be akin to a human trying to run and win a footrace with two different shoes on.  Kent D. was all over the saddle yanking the horse one way and then the other.  IMO, Kent was trying to ride 4 different race scenarios at the same time.  Couldn't make up his mind which one to do, so he just kept changing strategies.

The horse was rank.  He should have gotten a 2 furlong bullet work that morning to take the edge off.  As much as they kept saying the quarter crack wasn't an issue, it had to be to have babied that horse from 5/25 when the crack was first discovered to nearly two weeks later when he ran in the Belmont.  You just can't keep any athlete cooped up that long and then expect them to run the race of their life.

As far as Kent D. pulling him up, I can't fault him for that.  He was probably so confused about how the race was going down that he just didn't want to run BIG the rest of the race on the outside chance that another Eight Belles situation could come up.  

I saw Big Brown when he worked out at Saratoga prior to his maiden win which was a 10 horse race, and he broke from Gate 1.  Jeremy Rose took over the reigns from Edgar Prado who was injured the day before.  That horse just cruised his way around that track.  Jeremy didn't have to touch him - which is unusual for JR.

There's been bad feelings in the Dutrow barn from day 1.  He never wanted Kent D. to ride that horse.  His go to guy was Prado.  Kent D. is a good enough jock, but he folds like a $2 suitcase when the going gets tough. IEAH now fashions themselves as trainers and with each win the horse acquired, they involved themselves more and more into the horse's training.  Kent takes marching orders, and Dutrow bites his tongue because he doesn't want to lose the horse.  Bad stuff going on amongst BIG's connections.

BUT, all told?  The BIG horse lost, and no amount of rationalizing or trying to come up with the precise formula will change the outcome.  The answer lies with the horse, and he ain't talkin'.  

I look forward to seeing him race again.  Disappointed he won't be in Saratoga.  I hope the owners are doing right by him.  Dutrow may be a PITA, but he's a good trainer.  He's sporting a lot of baggage - much more now because of the recent drug charge. I'm not sure, however, that changing trainers would be a good idea - not unless Michelle went along to the new trainer.  BIG loves Michelle.

Monica your right... and believe me I am not trying to be nasty but if people are going to make statements about steroids and in this case Winstrol shouldn't they know what they are talking about?  I believe I do... I took Winstrol shots in the early 80's recoving from shoulder injuries.

Like Terry Bradshaw said, It didn't run faster or get big it helped me recover from injuries... and that is what it did for me. Like Bradshaw, I wasn't trying to do anything except pick my arm up over my head so I could throw the ball. I can also tell you a shot of Winstrol stings like hell so I hope it doesn't sting the horses like it did me. And one last thing...(to all) yes my wife is doing much better we work out each day in the pool and she is now walking without a crutch or a limp.  Several of you wrote me personal emails of well wishes and I want you to know she read them all.  Thank you very much.

So now it's down to two things that "doomed" the Big Ole Browneye in the Belmont Draynay? The starter being on the track. That's common all over, the fact is Brownie wasn't professional enough to handle it. That's his own fault. The Maiden being in the race to step on Brownie? Wake up and smell the coffee, that was Brownies fault not the other way around as he veered into the Maiden. The gist of it all is that the Big Ole Browneye wasn't good enough or professional enough at this point to handle it.

Smooth Air, Pyro, and Brownie accomplished as much to this point in their carrers as Street Sense, Curlin, and Hard Spun at this point in theirs? Wow Draynay you must be on something. Smooth Air didn't finish in the top three in a Triple Crown race last time I checked. The Ohio Derby, he beat nothing. Pyro was reduced to a plodder picking up small pieces in the Triple Crown races. The Big Ole Browneye just got his butt handed to him in the worst finish in history for a horse going for the Triple Crown. All this agains tthe weakest crop of 3 yr olds to come along in years through the Triple Crown!! Heck even the Maiden whipped Brownie after Brownie practically took him out at the start of the Belmont!!!! Take your blinders off Draynay, so far this class of horses has proven nothing other than how weak they are. You can't seem to grasp the fact that there are races written for 3 yr old ONLY and someone has to win them. Beating up on weaklings doesn't make you anything special. I sincerely hope that some of these 3 yr olds step up and improve immensly. If Curlin is retired after this year and they don't and we are left with this class as the best we have that will be a shame.

As for the Browneye to prove he can beat the champ he should go seek him out and face him wherever he runs. It's not the reigning champs obligation to chase anyone.

Right now Brownie needs to show he can come back and win something other than a race where he gets a perfect trip against weaklings.

The jury is still out on this entire class. So far not so good.

OK everyone, keep to the pertinent facts.  Horses are animals, just like humans.  They are entitled to have bad days just like we are.  This is a horse that was not properly conditioned, had very little experience to grow from, and had still performed in a superior way each time that he was asked.  He was NOT trained by Dutrow in his maiden race and still ran extremely well, in fact that was the fastest mile that he has recorded.  I do not know if he was receiving Winstrol from his previous trainer, if not then the Winstrol issue goes out the window.  He was tired, stressed, and under trained for the task that he was asked to do.  Yes, I believe that the shoe may have been a problem, but it was just a part of the larger problem.  Let's see what he does with some rest, hopefully some better training, etc.  

As for Curlin, just remember that BB has a history on the turf and only developed his race on the dirt because his second start was moved from the turf to  the dirt.  As horsemen know, some horses prefer dirt, some turf, and a few relatively rare ones will race and race well on any surface.  We know that BB fits this bill, whether Curlin does or not remains to be seen.

Shoe and bad start sure made a difference. Not only was the shoe loose but also bent at a very bad angle. You try running down the road wearing somthing like that and see how it feels. Also I don't think you can run as fast as Big Brown. I think this is just a common sense issue. Yes I also beleive rider made some very bad decisions going into the first turn. In the end he should have just let him run up on the inside rather than jerking him all over the race track. Big Brown is very lucky he did not clip heels or have his heels clipped. Too much worrying over a speed duel up front. Big Brown will redeem himself soon. It does have alot to do with racing luck. I guess Nik Zito is now considered a giant killer! Or did he have the racing luck on Belmont day?

I don't beleive the quarter crack has anything to do with Big Brown's problem except for him missing regular training. That, in my eyes, is what sabotaged his change to win the Belmont. Missing days and then not blowing out as he had done every other race took him out of regularity.

The shoe is exactly what you stated: a curiosity for history. I don't think it helped Brownie at all, but I don't think it was the primary reason for his loss. I've seen horses lose shoes and win races. Maybe it's not the same thing, but I think we're grasping at straws by speculating.

Bottom line is, Desormeaux should be suspended for his handling of Brownie in that race. Had he let the horse go to the front like he wanted, I'm convinced the race would've had a much different outcome.

Can someone explain why you'd take a horse off of steroids before the biggest race of his life, then put him back on the steroids the week after the race?  Of course, Dutrow has said he "doesn't know what the Winstrol does".  I don't think this passes the smell test.  

Draynay,

I'm so glad your wife is improving the things are getting better.  I hope she completely recovers.

Good luck to you both.

Monica, I agree. I was thrilled to get to meet Charlie at DelMar and the bigger thrill is that Burt Bacharach was also there. Of course I'm showing my age and what a dork I am but I was a teenager and had the biggest crush on him (not the teen idol stars). I think the thing I liked most about him was that he owned race horses. As far as Draynay. His passion and love for 'his' horse is appreciated. It's his vehemence and name calling that isn't. On the Larry Jones QA there is another person who is worse and makes similar personal attacks but obviously hates horse racing. At least Draynay loves the sport. But needs to realize some of us are well informed about medications since we may be involved in that profession.

JERRYBURLY... before you post nonsense please read the previous post

The shoe was not the issue. It was loosened not gone and if there was any discomfort due to the nail, especially enough discomfort to produce that dismal effort, the jockey would surely have felt a BIG change in the horse's action.  KD said the horse felt fine in terms of action throughout the race.  Case closed right there.  The horse ran a clunker - who really cares at this point?  If BB is an all time great, he'll need to romp in his next outing and then romp against Curlin in October.  If those things happen, we can concede that he's a great horse.  If not, he's a footnote who won the Derby in average time and then trounced a group of non-graded stakes horses in the Preakness.  The burden of proof is back on him.

I've been reading these comments for weeks with great interest. I can vouch for what Doc says about the comments on LJ, I finally defended both her and Atthebarn. I also have been reading Draynay and finally decided to ask two family members who are pharmacists what Winstrol does. One, who is an oldtimer that used to actually compound the drugs (mix the powders put them in gelatin capsules, make ointments up etc) and the other who compounds IV drug therapy both said that Winstrol is an anabolic steroid which builds muscle mass and is a synthetic derivative of testosterone, just like the people on here have been saying. When I read about Draynay taking the shots, I asked and was told very gruffly, "If a steroid is an anti-inflammatory and if it builds or restores muscle mass of course it's going to help you perform better, why else would they give it to you. It helps you perform to your maximum potential and probably far beyond it why do you think they call it performance enhancing, and why do you think Congress is trying to outlaw it in athletic endeavors" I guess I got told off just like Draynay tells people, only no name calling.

For all of you NON athletes that never played sports I guess you will not understand.  But for anyone who played sports in High School and College that required SHOES you can understand how a half off and bent shoe can effect performance. But JBM you are right about one thing after the Haskell we will see know very soon if it was the shoe.  But can anyone answer me this.... Many of you have been attacking Big Brown and Dutrow over drugs yet not one of you have attacked Curlin and Asmussen ? Do you think Curlin is drug free??? Lol... I have a bridge I can sell you if you do....

draynay, before you post your nonsense, you should do a little checking.  Steroids don't necessarily have the same effect on animals that they have on people. In case you haven't noticed, there are some differences between humans and horses. Or maybe you have your feet filed and your shoes nailed on.  From what I've read, the effects of steroids on cattle may differ from the effects of the same steroids when given to horses.  

So you think it makes perfect sense to take the horse off the steroids he'd been on for at least 5 months, before the biggest race of his life, then the week after that race you put him back on them?  

Hey, did anyone notice that Da'Tara and Anak Nakal went off at longer odds than the maiden? Doesn't this strike anyone as being odd?

The starter out to be fired. What was the purpose of standing in the rail path?

Well, I'd have to say that since this section and article address this year's Triple Crown and why Big Brown didn't win it, that's probably the reason people aren't talking about Asmussen and Curlin.  

Draynay, just to be clear, if BB runs well in the Haskell, there will still be no definitive answer as to why he ran so awfully in the Belmont.  That is not going to prove it was the shoe. Here's the deal, and I think most horsemen would agree..... if we're going to consider a horse "great", one of the best standards to use is the horse's ability to overcome obstacles.  If BB ran like he did in the Belmont because of the location one of the starters was standing in or due to a bent shoe that didn't even change his action according to his jockey, it's real hard to make a case that he's a great horse.  I'm sorry but in my opinion, he's just a flash in the pan and I have a feeling you're not going to be able to find him with a search warrant at the end of the Haskell.

Draynay,

Once again, you obiviously do not read what people are actually saying on here. There have been multiple mentions of Steve Asmussen and the drug sitiuation. On the Curlin blog and even before that I think it was someone who must have gotten disgusted, fanofclass I think, posted several comments about Asmussen and Curlins connections not being well regarded and not being embraced by the non racing public because of the drug suspension Asmussen had. On this blog I COMMENTED THAT IT WOULD BE INTERESTING IF JASON STARTED A DISCOURSE ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION AND/OR SUSPENSION OF DUTROW, ASMUSSEN AND NOW BRUCE LEVINE. As far as saying no one is an athlete, here we go again with the thing that makes so many on this board have issues with you. Do you know that people were not athletes? I was, yes I'm a girl but I still was a college basketball player and a long jump and hurdler in track and my sister was an athlete who was recruited out of her sport (Rodeo and skiing) by anyone who wanted a 6'1" star athlete on their volleyball, basketball or whatever team. I don't know if you remember Olympic miler Zola Budd, she ran without shoes. How many basketball or football superstars have you seen who lose a shoe and keep playing until they can get the shoe back on, tons. BB's shoe was sprung(as Atthebarn told you several times and as all of the experts said in the NY Times etc) and went back on a few strides later. You have vacillated back and forth on the excuses the owner has been throwing out there. We really should wait until the Haskell and see what happens if/when he runs. RD said he has pulled his shoes off will be working him lightly for 3 weeks and then start triaing him up to the 8/3 event. Let's see if that works. Maybe he'll let the horse rest during his 15 day suspension.

Well Well Well, this could have been a great boost to the racing industry if Big Brown win the Triple Crown. but face the fact too many evidence point that steroid play a big role why he wins the first two and lost the third one with out steroid help. the fact is I like Big Brown to win like Barbaro with natural ability no drugs and that is you can be proud to say that's one tough horse.

Earth calling Draynay. Curlin ran in Dubui in march,they can't run on ANYTHING including steriods there. Their testing is as good or better than Japan. Apparently Curlin runs the same overseas or in the US and wins most of them. He's working on hitting 10 mill and should have no problem running on turf.Good ones run on anything.

Have read all your posts. Some good stuff, some great stuff, and some truly inspired. So, let me briefly take the body of evidence you all have so skillfully assembled and process it like the National Transportation Safety Board would in conducting a post-accident investigation. NTSB would look at the "causal chain", not unlike the way Steve Haskin did in his excellent (as per usual) post-race reporting.

Can we agree that BB was not his usual laid back self BEFORE he was even loaded into the starting gate? Yes, I know D. Wayne Lukas said he likes to see a horse trying to kick down the wall of his stall before a big race, but that was clearly not the same horse, disposition-wise, we saw in the Florida and KY Derbys as well as in Baltimore, and his exercise rider for one knew it as she tried to calm him down in the detention barn before the Belemont.

Then we get to the starter on the track, BB down on the rail, the collision he initiated with 'Canal, the shoe, but let's instead go back pre-race to the training before the race, the quarter crack, and yes, the 'roids.

In reverse order:

1- the 'roids-- Since we do not know the dose, it is impossible assess. Even if we knew the dose, there is so little research into how 'roids impact equine performance we still wouldn't know conclusively. Be careful in

drawing  your human parallels when considering the 'roid impact-- two difference species/two different metabolic systems. Bottom Line-- a 1200 pound animal would have to be eating Winny by the truckload to have anything approaching the kind of impact some of you here are suggesting here. So-- throw out 'roid "withdrawal" as the proximate cause of BB's meltdown. Maybe, maybe contributory, but I doubt it, based on what medical literature exists. Let's just ban them and be done with it.

(2) The quarter crack-- Ian did a textbook job managing this. Not a decisional factor on race day. That said, did it impact on training leading up to the race? Yes. See next entry.

(3) The training regime-- even by today's standards of lightly raced/lightly trained horses, would one of you please tell me why, given the extra time BB spent in his stall and not on the track as the conservative approach taken with the quarter crack, why didn't RD do JUST AS HE DID BEFORE THE PREAKNESS (and I believe the Derby as well?)-- BLOW HIM OUT RACEDAY. Was RD perhaps more concerned than he let on about that quarter crack, and that's why no blow-out race day?  Regardless, I sure saw a horse badly in need of a blow-out, and that was apparent long before the start.

Speculation: IF BB had been blown out, THEN maybe he could have overcome all that followed with the starter on the track, the shoe, the trip, the heat, the track surface, the trip KD gave him, and whatever else you want to come up with. But these, my friends, are more in the nature of excuses and than they are causal explanations. Horses, merely good ones and certainly great ones, have overcome these factors and still won races.

Conclusion: in NTSB parlance, the "proximate cause" of BB's meltdown goes back to his inexpereince generally and she pre-Belmont training regime in particular. Yes, the trip KD gave him not textbook, but how many dream trips have you seen in your life? Fact is, KD did not have his push-botton horse for the Belmont, and he likely knew it long before entering the first turn. Would Edgar have given him a better trip? Probably. A winning trip? Not close.

So, to Jason's Question: Did the shoe cause BB to lose? Ans: No-- the race was lost in the days and week or so leading up to the race. Could the shoe have been what NTSB calls a "contibutory factor"? Ans: yes, for many of the reasons others have blogged here-- combine running on that shoe with his bad feet generally (thanks to his Sire, Boundary) and of all

the "excuses", this one comes closest to arising as a true factor, albeit a contributory one, and not the decisional one. Chalk this one to RD's training. Memo to IEAH-- you got the wrong trainer.

May the debate now resume :-) I have to get back to the barn to attend to my 19 YO 30-start retired race horse/still in training and now eventer, with the mystery wound to his right front leg....

Excuses are a dime-a-dozen,and draynays' are darn right laughable.I've known many a horse race and win with a blown shoe,and it is bent purposely for better traction.Know what you're saying before you state it..Maybe you should send BB a couple of cases of your "performance enhancing Energy drink" because,BB will not be as dominant in his up-coming races without his fix of roids',watch.

Just finished feeding etc, now bookwork time. Thanks for the post Monica, I've enjoyed reading about you DocFarmer and Wanda's adventures. Lest we all forget, the human interest side of the story is what makes racing unique from horse shows, rodeos and other sports. We're a sport filled with characters for sure. IrishLili, you got the same story on Winstrol that I got on it from experts. goodwin, watch TVG/HRTV or go to your local track. A LOT OF STARTERS STAND ON THE TRACK. I didn't notice that he was standing directly in BB's path, if he were, he would no longer be with us. It isn't easy stopping a horse at a dead run from running right over you, don't believe me, Jeff Lukas, (bless his heart) is an example.

In reply to JBM. Yes many horses have run fine with loose and even missing shoes. What I see from the picture is yes shoe was loose but it was also bent in an uneven manner which could make a horse do a realm of many bad things to themselves. I honestly have to say any horse trainer would agree with this. There is much care given to shoeing a race horse. Without a level foundation under the joints you will have many problems. The first thing you look for on any race track is a good blacksmith. The rider of big brown most likely would not feel anything wrong as his adrenaline was up there as high as Big Browns was. Steroids skipped for a time of 2 weeks is a non issue to me. Now if it were for a longer period it will make a difference. I beleive with all the pressure put on Ricky Dutrow over using steroids made him declare he would not use them. Looks like the owners don't want steroids used on any of their horses now which will leave them some disadvantge. Any horse or athlete is going to go through some sort of withdrawal or change after they stop there use. Dutrow is a very good trainer. As they say you can't argue with success. Take a survey and see if any of the blue blood trainers use steroids on their horses . I have news for you most do. Also I have heard for many years this years crop of three olds are a weak bunch. I think we have to let that play out. Also just a note on quarter cracks, they are a very painful ailment and hard to deal with. There was a very nice horse named Slew of Gold who ran with 2 quarter crack patches in front and bars shoes. He did very well. I'm sure someone out there will tell you he was poorly bred.  

Nicely done Bryce Be Quick.

I repeat, PAT REYNOLDS was the colt's trainer for his first start at Saratoga.  So far, there has been NO evidence that he had received steroids prior to his first start.  He started in the #1 slot WITH THE STARTER ON THE TRACK!  He led wire to wire with splits of 23.19, 47.54, 1:11.84 and the mile in 1:34.46.  Yes, this is a two year old maiden on the grass.  And this was before Rick Dutrow got hold of him.  SEND THE COLT BACK TO REYNOLDS!  That should take care of many of his problems, all of his foot problems seem to have come under the care of Dutrow.  Maybe, he was just that good that he could win in spite of his trainer, however time and luck ran out.

Even if the bent shoe bothered BB,which I dont think it did, that might account for 3 lengths. There is no way in the world it would account for a horse that was distanced/eased.He was not off on it period. Everyone,trainer,rider and state vet stated that.I think other knowledgable horseman on this blog will say it would take a lot more than that to stop a horese of that calaber.

Mark Strope:  Regarding the shoe issue, I believe the contention among many BB Belmont apologists is that the protruding nail was causing a painful condition which if true, could indeed result in a terrible performance.  My point is that if there was a painful condition created by that shoe, one painful enough to cause that train wreck of a performance, the rider would ABSOLUTELY have felt something very different in BB's action that day compared to his normal action.  When Kent came back he said the horse felt completely fine under him.  If BB simply had a partially dislodged shoe which caused no pain, there's no way that can be blamed for his performance.  I am a former trainer, was liscensed and raced in seven different states and won a Grade 2 Stake at Hollywood Park in 1998.  I have some experience with this and in my own opinion, the shoe was not the culprit with BB's disaster in the Belmont.  But, we'll never really know for sure.  Nice horses sometimes run terrible races and the real reason is never determined.  The shoe photo makes for an interesting debate but I just don't think it's to blame in this case.

Mike M - you're exactly right.

Mike M you are absolutely right.

Mark, I don't know what you've heard,read or who you've been talking to, but #1 the colt was off steroid since 4/15/2008, per Richard. Since it has a cumulative effect, yes that is enough time to have caused issues, withdrawal and the efficacy of the drug. #2 As Mike M said everyone in his camp who examined the horse said shoe was a little off but not by much and RD originally said he didn't think it caused a problem. The track was deep by his request and provided some cushion. USA today and the NY Times both had interesting articles quoting experts and they agreed that it wasn't actually bent, but was sprung and reset within two to three strides #3 yes a lot of "blue blood trainers" use steroids within the legality of the medication but most know the reason why and most don't spout off about their peers and how crummy all of the horses in the world are. When you add to that a suspension of 5 years for personal drug use (I'm all for second chances but he said himself he still parties although no drugs now) #4 IEAH has made a statement banning steroids, as of OCTOBER 1.#5 yes Rick is a good trainer who lets poor judgement and lack of restraint get in his way to being a great horseman. The thumbing your nose at authority and propriety, by repeated infractions, loose cannon remarks and general lack of respect for authority is mind boggling, especially in a 48 year old man and wouldn't be accepted in any traditonal workplace. This industry is in trouble and is struggling already. We need advocates,proactivity and positivity. A lot of people have said we are our own worst enemy and if we have guys like this continuing to shoot us in the foot we're doomed.

JBM you are right. The shoe is not the cause. It is just one more thing to add to the bad performance. As to Kent pulling the horse up. Why did he if he was traveling well? Now everyone says he was distanced. Yes he was but because his rider pulled him up. He would have been last but not distanced. I have been around the track a few years to but never with good horses like yourself. Just cheap claimers. To tell the truth I used rub horses for Ricks father in Maryland many years ago. The Dutrows are all good horsemen and I have alot of respect for them. They all worked very hard for what they have.

Read comments by Dutrow on Bloodhorse.com.Where I work we have a zero-drug policy and I'm sure lots of other people do to.Point is whether its you or the horse in your care nobody can afford to lose wages/purses at any time of the year. So make darn sure it don't happen in the first place.

Lol... you people continue to talk about steroids when you know nothing about them.  Have any of you ever taken the drug?  Do ANY of you have proof it helps horses run faster?

If not then just stop it already. Pictures are worth a thousand words, well look at the pictures with Big Browns shoe hanging off and bent and you can see why he couldn't run with any comfort.  Like I said... come back after the Haskell and tell me how smart you are then...

At the barn . I agree Rick is a bit outspoken. I also agree the racing industry is in trouble. You would think with all the big purses now things might be going more smoothly. Now you have Asmussen, Levine and the man that trained Eight Bells looking at days. It only gets worse. It's almost like  Rafael Palmeiro at the congressional hearings.

Draynay ever given a horse steroids? Do you know how much to give? Do you know what kind to give? Get back to me and tell me how smart you are.We all saw the pictures of the sprung shoe,do you know the difference between a sprung one and one hanging off? Ever tried to get a sprung shoe off without nippers? Do you know what nippers are? Get back to me when you got all the correct answers.

Mark,

If you rubbed horses for ***, you know how he felt about Ricky. It is nearly impossible for someone to ever trust a drug user again. Most of us in life today has someone they know who has tested them that way. I don't think Tony speaks to him either, I don't know much about that dynamic, but it's usually the siblings that take it the hardest when that's present. A little outspoken you say. The sheer embarassment of what he said then the drug positive on the heels of it being publicly ridiculed on ESPN, the network that we (strangely in my opinion) chose to broadcast the Breeders Cup. Draynay, everyone on this board is LOL at you. You know don't you that steroids affect the brain cells, well I would say finally have my explanation about you but almost anyone of a certain age has taken steroids, get real.  Also the shoe wasn't hanging off or badly bent, stop listening to yourself and listen to the experts. I actually don't even think you support BB I think you are just a disgruntled agitator who gets his jollies by trying to irritate people.

Enough Already.

Draynay I would venture reading the comments here that most of the people are of an age where they have had steroids prescribed or injected. What they are saying is correct. We use steroids and lidocaine in our pain management clinic multiple times per day, every day. Yes anabolic steroids build muscle mass which directly relates to any type of endeavor dependent on the musculature system. It has innumerable side effects in humans, including altering brain cell structure, suppressing the bone marrow, head enlargement and others too indelicate to mention here. This is in humans and although the jury is still out and debate rages on how it affects equines there is something there or it would not be investigated by congress unless they thought they could sink their teeth into it. Also the sales have all started banning it because it falsely represents the equine to the buyer by increasing size, muscle mass etc. If you so desire, I will contact the Dean of the University Medical school, Dean of Pharmacy and the head of the Chemistry department to explain it to you further.

Mark, I should have said you rubbed horses for Richard Sr.

Thanks so much everyone for the real expert opinions.I can argue till the cows come home but you guys said it so much better.On a seperate note anybody out there in the roadtothebreederscup challenge?

For Heavens sake someone please put a gag in Richard Dutrow Jr.'s mouth. I believe he has cranial issues. His statement about Clenbuterol, oh lord not again.

Dutrow said clenbuterol “clears out (a horse’s) system. It helps them in a lot of different ways. I like clenbuterol. I’ve been using it for a number of top horses." from BH article explaining his drug positive and how he is tired of all the focus on that and Winstrol. Hello, earth to Rick Clenbuterol is a broncho dialator with properties similar to ephedrine (the thing methamphetamines are manufactured from)  but its effects are more potent and longer-lasting as a STIMULANT and thermogenic drug. It causes an increase in aerobic capacity, CNS(central nervous system) stimulation, and an increase in blood pressure and oxygen transportation. It increases the rate at which fat and protein is used up in the body at the same time as slowing down the storage of glycogen. It is commonly used for smooth muscle relaxant but is now being sought after as a diet drug. Okay Rick thanks for another hit on the industry, get a spokesman please. Somebody take him under your wing and get him to cease and desist before he destroys himself and the industry single handedly.

Curlin lover here.  Would like to see the two match on the track like the trash talking video.

Don't know enough to know if it was the shoe, but do find it strange that I am just now seeing that as an additional excuse.

Hank, saw your comment and you sound like you are involved in training.  If so, hope you have lots of win pictures.  No problem with getting them free other than hurt feelings.

ENOUGH ALREADY ... thanks for posting a whole lot of nothing.  Please read your post again... you said nothing. Who here besides me has taken Winstrol ??? Anyone ??? Winstrol has innumerable side effects? Really...lol... you simply do not know what you are talking about. If taken how long and in what dosage?

The governor of California took numerous steroids for many many years....where are the side effects?  Please stop posting silly remarks proving you know nothing about what you are talking about. Unless you have taken Winstrol or are a scientist who has studied its effects you dont know

Atthebarn2 ... what are you talking about ?  You think I enjoy having to read the senseless DRIVEL you post?

Everyone has an opinion I know ... but some of you should write it down and sound it out before you post it.

The experts said... who is an expert in this game? Who can talk to horses?

Jerry Bailey is he an expert ? Yeah... well he thought PYRO would win the Derby...to me...not an expert.  Great jockey... not an expert.  So a horse is running unlike he ever has in any race and pictures show he got his foot stepped on and his back shoe is bent and hanging half off and you say the experts say..."No Problem" Huh? What? How do they know???? They weren't doing the running were they.  But I will tell you what. If Big Brown drags around the Haskell I will say your right but if he dominates and crushes the field like always because NO ONE has stepped on him then please please go back to watching your STAR WARS reruns and let us talk horseracing.

Atthebarn2,

Wow!  Well said and right on!

Draynay, are you the expert? As you sit in your living room or wherever dreaming up your comments.I, unlike you think quite a bit about what I write I don't think everybody on here hates me, can you say the same? The horses dang sure don't train,feed, water, bathe shoe themselves schedule their works, enter up  or clean out their own stalls. So we would have to assume the experts are the people who train, shoe and doctor them. The trainer of your agenda making animal even said that about the shoe, he doesn't know anything either so BB can take care of himself from now on, I think the noms are due soon for the Haskell Brownie, better get busy.You talk about drivel, show your comments to someone at the track, anonymously and you'll see what their opinion of who has the higher drivel factor. I personally have never seen Star Wars. I Tivo what I'm interested in because most of it is on when I'm not there. Have you ever even touched a horse, I doubt that too. Maybe we can get a horse whisperer to come and talk to BB or a psychic to read him. I'm not kidding either because some of the best trainers in the game have resorted to this. But I doubt you'd believe it if you heard it from the horse himself. Jason, I think this guy is totally out of control the Winstrol he took has damaged his brain cells beyond redemption and I think he is getting a little scary. Disagree with me if you will but obviously Enough Already is a Dr or involved in that field and even offered to have someone of high expertise explain it to this nitwit.I bet if BB could talk he would say shut that character up NOW.

Draynay, You are not the only human in the world who has taken Winstrol, get over yourself. I offered to have some of the scientists who have studied the drug try to drill it into your head about this drug. Or I can contact the Federal Clinical Drug Trial liaison to inform you of their results on a blind study but they might think I'm having issues. Our clinic uses a corticosteroid in our injections and every patient must sign a release re the surgical and medication risks. You are so objectionable I might be able to talk the group into giving you an occipital block or an L5 Facet injection but I don't want highly principled healers to be tempted to do harm. The Hippocratic Oath intimates this but doesn't actually state the "First Do No Harm" but most wouldn't anyway. I am attempting to copy the insert for Winstrol for your viewing pleasure but in the interim, read it and weep:

Stanozolol, commonly sold under the name Winstrol (oral) and Winstrol Depot (intra-muscular), was developed by Winthrop Laboratories in 1962. It is a synthetic anabolic steroid derived from testosterone, and has been approved by the FDA for human use.

Stanozolol is one of the Anabolic steroids commonly used as an ergogenic aid and is banned from use in sports competition under the auspices of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and many other sporting bodies

Stanozolol has been used on both animal and human patients for a number of conditions. In humans, it has been demonstrated to be successful in treating anaemia and hereditary angioedema. Veterinarians may prescribe the drug to improve muscle growth, red blood cell production, increase bone density and stimulate the appetite of debilitated or weakened animals

Serious health risks can be produced by long-term use or excessive doses of anabolic steroids. These effects include harmful changes in cholesterol levels (increased low-density lipoprotein and decreased high-density lipoprotein), acne, high blood pressure, liver damage, and dangerous changes in the structure of the left ventricle of the heart. Some of these effects can be mitigated by exercise, or by taking supplemental drugs.

Non-medical uses for anabolic steroids are controversial, because of their adverse effects and their use to gain weight and potential advantage in competitive sports

draynay,draynay,draynay...you Slimy Salamander(lol),..seems like you're going through another episode of roid'rage yourself,are you still taking em'?are you in denial of the fact that they absolutely enhance a horses performance on the track,to what extent?who knows,but there's no doubt that they "perk up" a horse,which I see on a 1st hand basis.Why else would so many trainers across the country give it to their horses?Not to give them "shinier" coats,I'll tell you that much!..I notice some Stallions with shrunken testicles when they first arrive at the farms,then they gradually come back to normal size(sort of speak)after a few months of being without the stuff.So,in that regards,I'd have to say that they most likely have the same effects on equine as it does on humans,in which humans lose/destroy brain cells with constant usage,YOU being the case in point(hoo-rah,lol)..Are you really calling-out Jerry Bailey?..Go ahead and make us laugh with your constant,unfounded rantings..buh bye!

Jason, While the thought is appreciated and you certainly are attempting to resolve the issue.Just like on this board, the debate rages on in the Veterinary field itself This discussion was already on an NBC Sports site and the Q&A with Dr. Arthur in the Dec 2006 Blood Horse demonstrated his take on the situation. From the NBC report "Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the California Horse Racing Board, said the inconsistent results have made him skeptical about the benefits of running on the drugs."

and another of his observations:

"Though frustrated by the inability to create a test that could measure how steroids effect the way a horse runs, Arthur added there's no test that shows steroids make it easier to hit a home run or strike out a batter." Another vet  "Why give steroids to a horse once a month?'' said equine veterinarian Doug Byars. "Do you give it to them because of appetite? No. You give it because you think they may improve their overall performance and keep them at the top of their game.''  Everybody is trying to figure out why Big Brown didn't run,'' said Dr. Don Catlin, president of the Anti-Doping Research Institute. "I don't know why. But I do know if I'm on steroids and if you stop them a couple of weeks ago, I'm going through withdrawal and I'm not going to feel like running. But you can't test for that.''

So I appreciate his input but it won't stop the debate that's raging. A one sided view will just reinforce the opinion of people like Draynay and send others out to find what supports their point of view. Or make them feel like their position is being minimalized and drive them away from these lively boards.

I still believe that Big Brown is a good horse and may have the potential to be great (if he isn't retired before that can happen) but he isn't there yet.  However I have to take issue with those who are posting that the great ones overcome ALL obstacles.  The great ones have displayed tremendous courage and will to win and many have overcome a lot of obstacles.  BUT, none of the horses on most peoples list of great ones have overcome ALL obstacles or they would have all retired undefeated.  However they didn't - remember Man O' War lost once, Secretariat lost 5 times, my all time favorite Native Dancer lost once, Citation lost 13 times, Spectacular Bid lost 4 times, Seattle Slew lost 3 times, etc. I can only think of 2 horses in the last 100 or so years that retired undefeated and neither of them are generally mentioned as one of the greats (Colin 1907-1908 15 starts and Personal Ensign 1986-1988 13 starts).  So it appears to me that a horse doesn't have to overcome ALL obstacles All the time to be considered great! If so our list of "greats" just shrank to two. I think we should reserve judgment on Big Brown's "greatness" until he has had more time to show what he can do - and when he retires he may well be one of the "great" ones even though he lost the Belmont - a number of horses on peoples "great" list never even ran in the Belmont or lost an equally important race in their career.

Jason, please don't compare Draynay to yourself. I hope with all my heart that you are not like him, or even worse are him. I enjoy your writings and your Talkin Horses Segment and would be disappointed to even think badly of you. I read what DocFarmer was talking about and she is correct, there were as many views on that site as there are on here, strangely this was much more technical though.The one veterinarian from the Anti doping agency probably has the most expertise because that is ALL he does, maybe you could get him. What disturbed me about Dr Arthur's comment in 2006 (I looked that up to) is he said 80% of positives are accidental and without malicious intent. Not to be unkind to horsemen but there is a lot of money out there and I think a lot more than 20% will try to gain an advantage or in the least a level playing field as Jack Van Berg made a comment to the Congressional panel that "it's Chemical Warfare" the article also said that there's no hard evidence but anecdotal evidence is mounting. Also if Draynay gets the one sided view he will take that as the gospel since it coincides with his. All of a sudden the expert will be saying what he wants so they will be the ultimate expert in his eyes. I really don't know what Dr Arthur will say but the other article was from  June 20 or 25th. Also what about an expert on the shoe issue? of course if that is not what Draynay wants to hear that person won't be an expert.

Enough Already...please give it a rest. I have had several intraarticular injections in my time as far as an occipital Block... lol.. ask my mother about them she is the one with the migraines. Do us all a favor and stop.  Yes we all know the side effects when taking too much steroids... by the way taking in too much WATER is called drowning.

Slew... what I am saying is this... there are very few experts in the horseracing game...in fact ask anyone about how their horse is going to run and they don't know!

Ask any trainer anything about who is going to win a race and they have no clue. Trainers are wrong all the time and they are the experts ? Jerry knows how to ride but to pick Pyro to win the Derby??? There is no need for me to buy a tape or book from him on how to handicap that's for sure. Jason I am not trying to rile I am trying to understand why people keep posting things about steroids and they have NO idea what they are talking about.  There is not one study done ever that shows Winstrol makes horses go faster nor is there a trainer in the world that will make such a claim...case closed.

Jason,

Most M.D.'s rely on a Pharmacist when there are questions about medications.They are now PharmD's or Doctors of Pharmacology. They are the ultimate experts on medication, contraindications, efficacy, side effects etc. When a new drug comes out it is almost always the Pharmacist who inservices the M.D.'s/ D.O.'s on them. As far as Veterinary medicine I don't know but it's just a thought.

Jason, The NBC sports article was pretty one sided Dr. Arthur said no, others said yes but I'll be interested to hear what he is saying now. The comment on the clenbuterol from Doc is from the insert, so.

DocFarmer,

Yes, Charlie Whittingham was the best.  Just a wonderful person and a great horseman.  Burt Bacharach wasn't bad either!

I'm sure I'm a lot older than you.

I started loving horse racing when I was a teenager at 15.  I went to the track with my grandparents and they took me to see Johnny Longden's last ride in 1966.  I am so glad I was there.  I've had some really wonderful memories and am still gathering them.

Things are getting scary for racing. Dutrow, Asmussen, Levine, Rose, Eight Belles, Larry Jones, Congress. Jason, you think we can take too many more hits or should we find another profession? If you write about tennis or whatever else I guess we'll have to go to that blog for our excitement as I sell Insurance or whatever.

Monica, I may have you beat by a year or two. My first memory was when I was 4 and my Papa took all of us to the State Fair to watch the races, I was precocious and right then and there I decided I was going to do everything I saw. Unfortunately reality intervened, my serious heart problems escalated at 5 (yes Draynay I know all about steroids in a way you cannot imagine)school,college,playing sports with close monitoring became a priority and I only got to work at the track for a short time when I was 19-20, but we've always owned horses and I've always loved watching them run and especially loved grooming them, putting checkerboards on the butt, what fun.

It's more fun to talk about the nonsensical memories than to spar in a no win deal. I forgot my own motto with Draynay of never matching wits with an unarmed opponent. I'll go back to that philosophy.

I finally figured it out. The people who push Draynays buttons the worst are the Dr? (enough Already) and the trainer (Atthebarn2)I only know what I read and what people who do this stuff everydsy tell me. I think DrayNay may just really dislike people who don't think they know more than him about their own professions but actually do. Now I guess he'll target me but that might be exciting, I'm just a nobody who knows nothing except my own mind.

Lol....LOL... DocFarmer...you are killing me! Let me get this right. You have reservations about Dr. Rick Arthur because he has shared opinions that mirror my own?  Lol... would you like to know why ... BECAUSE I AM RIGHT ! "A one sided view will reinforce the opinion of people like Draynay..."  Lol... DocFarmer for the last time I am not giving you an opinion I am giving you a fact! There is not one piece of scientific proof that says Winstrol makes a horse run faster. That is not opinion that is fact. Opinion would be you talking about Winstrol withdrawl... there is no such thing. JASON ... How dare you bring on a very experienced Doctor of more than 30 years to this forum to share his one sided opinion that agrees with mine... you are going to cause people to run to the hills because a experienced Dr. is going to agree with what I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG. Shame on you Jason can't you find someone who doesn't know what they are talking about to give an opposing view? How about "Enough Already" he seems to like playing doctor...

Draynay,

All I said was why not have both points of view.ESPN and NBC both had that and it is much more objective, not that you know anything about that. You, Draynay have some serious anger control issues and this isn't fun like it should be. Discourse, debate, are interesting and pass the time, vitrolic diatribes, viciousness,inane inflammatory remarks and name calling is not something most people want to do in their spare time, or while working on the computer and surfing the web while they wait for reports. You have attempted to insult everyone on here even if they agree with you in your ego driven desire for attention. It isn't worth listening to an angry bitter person. It's actually exhausting and man am I exhausted and intend to rest for quite a while.

Draynay,

Not everyone is going to run for the hills because they're sick of you saying whatever you want. If you could stow the attitude for a moment and read what people are saying or read the NBC Sports article you would see that for every view that supports you, there is an opposing view. NO THERE IS NO DEFINITVE TEST THAT PROVES WINSTROL HELPS HORSES RUN FASTER, BUT THERE IS *NO TEST THAT PROVES WINSTROL DOES NOT HELP HORSES RUN FASTER*

Gee...I didn't know I was verbally exhausting you DocFarmer... I sometimes get a little excited when people post things that just don't make any sense.  For example..."..viciousness, inane inflammatory remarks and name calling.." Please show me where I was inane or vicious towards you... I don't see it. I simply pointed out the humor in your last post. IrishLili are you kidding me? I can't prove winstrol doesn't help horses run faster ?  Lol... I can't prove ketchup and mustard doesn't make horses run faster either so what is your point?

Draynay, What I actually said was We are not going to run for the hills because someone supports your view, it is because we are sick of you saying whatever you wish to say, the rest is basically correct other than my retirement from this blog. This is what I wrote.

Draynay, Please calm down and read what I wrote, it was a little off because Jason fixed it for me and maybe I didn's say it right. It was a quote from the ESPN and NBC Sports article that I looked at when Doc told us about it. In the article it said: "THERE IS NO DEFINITVE TEST THAT PROVES WINSTROL HELPS HORSES RUN FASTER", BUT "THERE IS NO TEST THAT PROVES WINSTROL DOES NOT HELP HORSES RUN FASTER" that is cut and paste from the story and I made sure I did it right. And did you hear about your horse Big Brown? The owners and trainer are fighting and it's unsure where he'll run. just saw on ESPN. I guess the real question is will he ever run? And yes you are very abusive, it is not an attractive feature either, however I've tried to hold on to my Irish temper and with my red hair (getting quite grey but not bad for an old lady) it's very difficult.

IrishLili... you are making my point for me. There is no test and no study has been done regarding Winstrol and horses.  So please... please tell other posters to stop posting silly things like..."Big Brown didn't win because he didn't get his Winstrol shot"..or "He can't run without his Winstrol"... to get back to the subject I watched the Kent D. interview on ESPN and he said the same thing I did ... yes the shoe was an issue and yes... he will crush everyone in the Haskell and then we can put the thing to bed that the great Big Brown was beaten in the Belmont because a Maiden stepped on his foot coming out of the gate ruining his shoe.

You mean another horse stepped on his foot.  The maiden had raced as much as Big Brown had.  It would have happend if the horse wasn't a maiden.

Folks let me give you a word of advice. Stay on this board, talk to each other, debate, discuss and yes even argue, but as you saw from Draynay, he sees things one way, takes what someone is saying and twists it to suit his perspective. What I intend to do from now on is read Jason's excellent take on things, then discuss it with the people who have more intellect than the bale of hay sitting outside my office door which I have named Draynay in his honor. It's probably going to be fed to the horses in my barn in the next day or two and then will end up on the stall floor and when the stall is mucked by my groom it will be hauled away and it will still be named Draynay. Jason, how bout the Gold Cup, did you have the pick six? Hammerin Hank finally made something for his bank, if you hit it you could float a few bucks my way.

Atthebarn2,

I just couldn't let it go!  I realize it's a weakness but whether or not the horse hadn't won in 5 starts it still had as much racing experience as BB.  It wasn't his first race!  I don't believe he could be entered if it was his first race.  He just hadn't won although his race before the Belmont he was second by a nose.  Draynay keeps referring to the horse as though he'd never run.  He just hadn't won.  Any horse next to him would have stepped on him.

Jason,

I love your blogs!  Keep 'em coming!  Can't wait till the Haskell and see Big Brown again.

If it happens at all.

Monica, You were insightful as always. I just know you're speaking to a complete contrarian with that guy we won't name but in my many years on this earth I've realized it's human nature to try and reason with people, no matter how unreasonable they may be. Despite what a lot of people think, the horse business also requires a lot of people skills. One of my earlier posts arguing with him said Atthebar and about then I guess I wished I was there, even though I don't drink.  

Jason, wow you missed the 31 grand? Wish you would've been one of the tickets. Hank was already up 1400 then got 5 of 6 and I think a consolation of 3600 I may be wrong on that figure. I know you've hit your fair share but from what I've seen of the Hammer he's probably only about a few hundred thou in the hole. Maybe he does better on the other sports. Any time he Neume or Battaglia pick, especially the BC, I run the other way. What are those guys, 2 for whatever?

Jason, as they say LOL. When he picks the favorite it's the kiss of death and can you believe he sets the morning line on the Derby. Oh well I guess we should thank him, I lived pretty well on my score from Charismatic 99, one of the reasons I like ole D. Wayne.

Which reminds me of the quote here on the BH (Mr Ed)by Wayne: "I don't think there are any dumb horses, but there's a lot of dumb people."

Hey Monica, do you suppose he knows our nameless friend?

Way to go MonicaV and Atthebarn2.You guys got something going here.To funny!

Atthebarn2 "..debate, discuss, even argue but draynay sees things one way."  Well gee... how many ways do you see things Atthebarn2 ??? Instead of coming at me with an empty hand how about you enlighten us all and tell me where I have been misled. Debate, discuss, and argue...isn't that what I am doing ? Oh.. I see your saying that because my view point does not match yours that you are somehow smarter or know more than me. For Example.. YOU KNOW the horse having a shoe ripped off his foot and bent had nothing to do with his performance... a horse that had beaten the winner a few weeks earlier by 20 lengths.... come on ATTHEBARN2 if your going to tell everyone how much you know go ahead and tell us.. was it the shoes or do you have your OWN theory....please share. Monica, a maiden no matter how many starts he has does NOT belong in the Belmont. That is the reason you have NOT seen a Triple Crown winner and probably will not again. Only horses that ran in the Derby or Preakness should be allowed in the Belmont. Not 8 fresh horses and 2 of them set to dash out and box you in and guarantee a horrible trip and then experts to say ..."well I guess he doesn't like dirt in his face.." 30 years ago you had 4 or 5 horses in the Belmont...now a fresh field to try and screw up the Triple Crown ANY way they can...yes horseracing really knows how to market itself doesn't it.....

I wonder if Draynay was watching Belmont last saturday. The race: G1 Mother Goose. The winner Music Note. The running line: Stumbled badly at the break AND LOST A SHOE!!!!  Now that's a professional horse who has shown it can overcome a little adversity.

Big Brown has alot to prove.

Atthebarn,

LOL!  No doubt.  Mike Battaglia and that Nuemier (spelling?) guy are really pathetic with their picks.  I remember one of them slamming the bettors who bet on AP Indy for the classic in '92.  I knew AP would win.  He had stumbled badly at the start of his last race in NY and made up a tremendous amount of ground on the back stretch but didn't win.  That was just the tightner he needed and won the classic without Eddie using his stick.  That horse was far better than anyone really knew.  If he hadn't had the problem with his feet he would have won the triple crown. Anyway, Battaglia thought everyone was off their rocker betting on AP Indy.  I've watched those guys for years and they should keep their picks to themselves.   Sorry to have gone on so long!

The loose shoe certainly didn't help...anyone ever try to run 1 1/2 miles in flip flops??

I've been looking back through old races and can't seem to find any where the starter is standing so far out into the track....what gives with that??

Finally, why has no one brought up past horses who have tried to run in the Classics with 1/4 cracks....Unbridleds Song was the favorite in the Derby, had won the Florida Derby, had won the Wood Memorial, but was running on a patched 1/4 crack......he stalked the pace and then had nothing in the stretch, finishing 5th....why don't we learn our lessons?

Churchill said....those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it!

Monica, You didn't really, i tend to as well, but you just said your usual good stuff and I remember A.P. well.

Davisondad, You're really late into the conversation, that point has been brought up a bunch. Was addressed over and over with examples similar and countered with the opinions of people in the industry who do this every day for a living. The patched crack,missed training, far more important in the opinion of most. Maybe this was a good ploy on IEAH part, take focus off drug issues, Ricky's issues and provide hope for BB's future. This seems to be the only place still discussing it at length. Even the connections have seemingly moved on deciding the next step and Dutrow focused on continuing his assault on his fellow trainers.

Wanda, join in whenever you feel like it, you've had some good posts and sounds like a lot of experience in the game.

Draynot, awesome wasn't it, then to get taken down when she had also been richocheted off the rail, still pretty good stuff.

My bale of hay is now gone, it couldn't read and didn't see what I had said about BB's missed training or Jason's post about NOT Changing the TC, it's tough, meant to be the ultimate test and every horse that nearly hit it took on FRESH runners. They came to haul away what we mucked out today and I could still hear the waste product from my honored bale of hay, yammering away about the big conspiracy to make BB lose the TC, one guy said the farrier did it, others believe it was the butler.

Draynot, Sorry I was talking about Proud Spell and her troubles in the race. Actually they all had horrible trips, stumbling at the gate, playing bumper cars, losing shoes etc and they all ran pretty darn well. the eventual 2nd & 3rd place fillies had horrible stumbles at the start and just about wiped each other out.

Draynay,

You keep bringing up the fact that there are fresh horses in the race.  Of course there are!  Winning a classic like that is always worth a shot!  Had Birdstone who was fresh not been in the classic, Smarty Jones would have won the TC.  You have a better chance of winning when there are horses who have run the first 2 legs and one has a shot at the TC.  The horse who won has increased his value because he won the Belmont.  

When the quarter crack surfaced with Big Brown so close to the Belmont, they should have either patched it and trained him better or scratched him.  He has bad feet and I had a feeling a crack would show up.  The training was light because of his hoof, I think, they were trying to get it to heal.  A mile and a half race is tough and the crack could have gotten worse.  Who knows?  Maybe he would have won but maybe not.  Maybe he was just upset and hot and mad that day and didn't want to run.  That happens, they are animals and not machines.  Their routine day is very important for them and his routine was upset.  He didn't like it.

Another point you have argued with me about is Secretariat.  He wouldn't have won if there were 8 fresh horses in the Belmont with him. HAHA!  If you have ever seen that Belmont you would know that no horse has ever run that fast that soon in that race and then broke the WORLD RECORD for 1 1/2 miles on the dirt by 2 2/5 seconds!

They could have thrown every fresh horse in America at him and he would have still beat them by 31 lengths.  That horse was so fit and so ready for that race it was miraculous.  No horse has ever run the Belmont that fast and no horse ever will.  Fresh horses would NOT have made a difference as you stated.

Why to I do this???? It's pointless.

Wanda,

Hasn't this blog been a kick?  I just love it!  Draynay has really kept us going, hasn't he?  It keeps it interesting reading his posts.  I wonder what he does for a living to be so nasty in his posts and so obstinate.  Well, he has an opinion and it will not be swayed and that's okay.

It's so nice to read all the other posts with so many knowledgable people stating opinions and facts and that includes you.  Atthebarn's post are always intelligent and well thought out.  Wouldn't it be fun to sit on that bale of hay and talk horses with him? I love visiting the backside.

I loved visiting the big farms in Kentucky.  I was lucky enough to visit Calumet when all that trouble was going on 20 years ago.

I had a really good talk with the stallion manager there and learned quite a bit.  Got to visit with the manager of Three Chimmneys too.

He was so nice and discussed so many things with me.  I even watched Slew breed an Argentinian mare.  Their breeding season is different so she was sent up here in the fall to be bred.  

It's all interesting.  Sorry, I've gone on and on again.

Monica and Wanda,

I've enjoyed visiting both of you as well, almost feel like we're sitting in my office or on a (neutral) bale of hay in my shedrow. I've been called cantakerous and obstinate and probably make Barclay Tagg look like a pussycat but I can tell you I love each and every horse in my barn and on my farm. I don't really agree about (as some movie the kids like that I don't remember it right now call the bad guy) "he who shall not be named" because he is so mean and brings out the worst side of people and that kind just seems to enjoy it and blame the world for their troubles. Glad you got to see the horse farms and take the tours and most racing and breeding people love to talk about the game we love. A lot of the old farms are shutting up shop and it's getting tougher all the time for the mom and pop deals too. The backside is the best place to be, in the early morning hours that's what most of us love. As far as Big Brown I hope he runs again and I do really hope he runs well. I just hope he's running for a different set of connection or maybe just not Ricky, who has once again stuck his foot in his mouth and insulted a trainer who said what most of us think. Did you see the big Red Horse run? unforgettable wasn't it.Talk about going on and on, sorry folks.

Atthebarn2,

I was all of 22 years old when the big red horse ran his Belmont.  I wasn't there but I saw it on TV.  I can't imagine having been there to have witnessed that incredible horse.  We all saw true greatness when he ran that race.  He ran it with the speed of a sprinter and carried it that distance.  He truly flew without wings.  I was so fortunate to have seen him the year before they put him down.  He was having problems then that they thought was his shoulder but turned out to be laminitis.  When they put him down, I cried for him and I had a very good friend who knew my love for Secretariat and sent me a sympathy card with his picture and an article about him.  I was touched by that.  I actually mourn the great horses that die and I have visited most of them.  I was devastated to hear what happened to Ferdinand and Exceller.

I was truly upset when Sunday Silence died and Easy Goer who we didn't have for very long.  John Henry...the list goes on.  How lucky I am to have been in their presence and enjoyed their beauty and their wonderful way of going.

Monica.... I love you...lol.... you just had to bring up Secretariat didn't you.  Yes he won the Belmont by 30 but raced against nobodies and a horse with a broken leg.  Gee.. he should have won by 40.  How many raced against him 4 ?  How about 8 fresh horses and one of them crash into Secretariat at the start knocking the rider off.  Would have changed history huh...

I saw Secretariat run and when he was great he was great and there were times when he was not so great.  Big Brown had a very unlucky trip getting his shoe knocked half off and bent... Watch what he does in the Haskell. I saw the Secretariat run the Derby and I saw Big Brown run it... Big Brown was more impressive. The Preakness I will call a draw.  The Belmont I will give Secretariat.  So far I see them even in their 3 year old campaigns.

Athebarn2,

Lenny Shulman thinks Dutrow is refreshing!  I wrote a post on his blog with my thoughts on that.

I gotta at Draynay again. No fresh horses allowed in the Belmont? Make sure there aren't two that might box someone in? No maidens allowed (even though it was not anyones fault but Big Browns that he got stepped on). Heck let's find out who Draynay pick is every year and rewrite the rules just for him.

Boo Hoo Hoo my horsie got boxed in!!! It is ludicrous to whine about getting boxed in and not being good enough to overcome it. Wake up, that is all part of racing. I wonder how you feel about NASCAR Racing.

Boo Hoo Hoo my horsie got stepped on!! Not to mention the fact it was his own fault. Let's whine about a maiden who caused Big Brown no trouble. The fact of the matter is that Big Brown caused his own problem by breaking out. He wouldn't have been stepped on if he had kept his path. You can't blame the maiden.

Big Brown did plenty wrong to lead to his defeat. Quit the whining like a baby.  The bottom line is Big Brown got whipped into submission!!

Monica, I'll look for it when I get a free moment. I don't know if you saw the deal about Ricky but I can only say it's about time. Mike Iavarone finally realized what this guy is doing to his rep and his colt's rep. A lot of the dislike for BB is only what's being transferred from his trainer, fairly or not. You don't continue blaming everyone in the world for your troubles and saying well he did worse than me, that is typical of a junior high (middle school now)kid. The other guy got him back though saying he's in recovery, then saying he's a moron, the other 4 didn't say much in public. The deal about holding a gun to his head to make him go to testify was just plain stupid. What he has said and what he has done has made everyone wonder what was going on with BB. Maybe it was nothing, maybe he is a great horse but most folks believe where there's smoke there's fire. A lot of trainers tried to be kind, a lot were talking around the subject and a lot were saying exactly what they thought of RD. Now if IEAH were to go a step further and get one of there other guys, a Bill Mott, Barclay or someone like that the horse might be able to show that he is a great horse. Maybe the Derby showed that, but the questions just won't go away.

Hi Wiz... nice of you to drop in and share with us your articulate banter.

I guess you feel its ok to drop maidens into Triple Crown races. I do not. It cheapens the race and they have no business in them.  Years ago trainers did not dare  throw horses into the Belmont but now its do anything you can to stop a Triple Crown winner...lol... between that and retiring the best horses at 3 its amazing anyone cares about this sport anymore. Hey anyone looking forward to the Breeders Cup this year ??? Unreal...

Monica, Did you get to see John Henry, what a warrior. The Slew and a bunch of others. But to see big Red, good for you. Anyone who ever saw him run in person would have a hard time picking any other horse over him. In the Belmont we were all saying the same thing as Lucien, Ronnie Don't FALL OFF. You didn't have to wait for the necropsy after he passed to know that his heart was much bigger than others.

For those who try to compare him to BB, he beat that one on time by 2.4seconds-(roughly converting 5ths)in the Derby he beat BB on time by .40 in the Preakness and heck about 15 others ran it faster since '70, Louis Quatorze in 153.46 and even D. Wayne's Tank's Prospect ran a 1:53.4 as for the Belmont some 'generous person' WILL give it to Secretariat who only set the still standing world record for 1 1/2 miles on dirt at 2:24. Don't ever try to compare BB to RED at the track where people have seen them come and go and aren't neophytes, you'll get laughed off the premises at the very least or they'll call the men in with the straightjacket to come and get you.  

I guess I love you too, Draynay!  LOL!  We just agree to disagree.

I just posted that post about Secretariat because I knew you would respond and you did not disappoint!  Thank you for staying true to yourself, Draynay.

Well said the wiz,I also mentioned that BB caused his own trouble.Really!The shoe wasn't/shouldn't be that BIG of a deal,(see Mother Goose)and if it was bent,blacksmiths do that purposely for better traction..Point being: he lost because he didn't have his usual clean,easy,trouble-free trip he was accustomed to,YES,including the Derby!(remember War Pass' Tampa Derby?).I'd rather be wide & trouble free than boxed-in,jostled & who knows what else in a 20 horse stampede,as most of the field did..So he got himself into a little trouble and threw a fit in the Belmont,Good to Great ones overcome such adversity.We'll see what he's made of in his upcoming race.God forbid if an allowance winner is in the field and/or some other horse is in his "specially designated path",or we just Might have an uproar..So far BB is no better than Smarty Jones,Silver Charm and ALL the other winners of the 1st 2 legs of the TC!..Til' then,GO PYRO!  hoo-rah!

Monica and whoever else is interested,I don't know if you read the full story about my cryptic remarks about Ricky, but ESPN has a portion only. NY Daily news has the full story. Mostly I'm just kind of sad and disgusted. I kept hoping someone who Ricky would listen to would step in. I know he listens to Bobby Frankel, but who knows how much. I hope he saves him from himself though.

Oh...here we go... Big Brown can't be compared to Secretariat...what a bunch of Garbage!!! You will see a horse run the same time as Secretariat before you will see a winner from the 20 post going 4 wide all the way around the track!!! How many horses did Secretariat beat in the Preakness...how many stiffs in the Belmont ??? The way they ride today and the number of horses they throw at you I would love to see ANY horse come back from the dead and try to win the Triple Crown. You holders of the time clock crack me up... its the one thing you hold onto and point to like that is the end all be all.  Watch the 100 meter dash sometime and notice the change in times according to wind, temperature, humidity, and track surface.  Time only means something if you run on it that day.  Thinking Sham ran the second fastest Derby therefore would beat any horse since is plain CRAZY. Sham was no better or more accomplished than Big Brown is today.

Monica, Jason etc, tell me what you think of my plan. I had a brainstorm and now just have to come up with the financing, too bad I'm not a big outfit like Pletcher or Asmussen. Anyway, I think I should figure a way to hire all the folks like Monica's dear 'friend' lol, some others on this blog and some of the ones on the blog about Jeremy who say you should hit the horse on the flanks (illegal) or sing em a lullaby as they run through the gap and break your leg. I'll put those guys on as exercise riders and the other one I'll have muckicg stalls shnce he's so full of what's in those stalls it'll be right up his alley. Actually I have a filly on the farm that is the runningest little thing I ever saw but meaner than Monica's friend so they might get along okay. I'll put him on her to break her and if he thinks he needed Winstrol before, he better stock up for sure she can run him around the 35 acres unless she breaks thru a fence and goes to the other 19 otherwise he'll be fine.

Atthebarn2,

Yes, I saw John Henry run in the Big 'Cap.  He didn't win that year but nobody cared because we all just loved that horse!  That was his last year running.  He won  the Arlington Million for the second time and I still remember the call as he crossed the finish line "thoroughbred racing's first 5 million dollar baby!"  What a horse he was!  I saw him at the Horse Park a couple of times and he was still fairly young.  In his last days they would walk him around the park where ever he wanted to go and he invariably would go to the hall of Champions and line up with the other horses in front of the crowd!  He loved to be in front of an audience.  He was one of my favorites.  Slew was a bit intimidating but not mean, just very macho but gorgeous.

Wasn't that generous of Draynay to give Secretariat the Belmont?  BB's derby was more impressive but 2 seconds slower.  That's the thing about him that has always kind of troubled me.  He's never had any times that were close to a record or equal or beyond.  Lots of people throw times out but Col Johns SA Derby was about the same speed as BB FL Derby so if they were on the same track, wouldn't they be next to each other instead of BB being, what was it, 9 lengths or something?  Just a thought.  Draynay, you don't need to address that remark, you already have.

I just love this sport and I hope they give BB to someone else.  Dutrow didn't deserve that horse.  That horse was way too good for him.

I just wish the Haskell was sooner.

August 3 is a whole month away.  I'm really curious to see who enters and what happens.  That's one to really pay attention to.  I'll be excited about that one for sure.  Let's see how it shapes up and who the top 3 finishers are.

Monica V,Atthebarn2 and everyone else hey! Sorry I've been working 11 hour shifts getting ready for the greatest outdoor show on earth that starts July 4.Did you all read about Curlin's work on grass? I wasn't surprized cause he certainly is bred for it and as someone else said a good horse can run on anything.Just skimmed this blog and some others and all I can say is WOW. I see more and more people getting in on the conversations.Question for Atthebarn2, how many cc's are you going to pump into that mean filly of yours? Cause if your short I'll get you some.(I'm kidding you guys).The whip blog is getting pretty interesting with some fairly bizzare comments. I can't add anything to hurt or help that one.

Monica...? What kind of logic is that?  Col. John and BB ran the same time on different tracks so if they were together they would finish together ? HUH ? Comparing the surface at the Derby in Kentucky in 1973 and 2008 is impossible.  The track was still wet from all the rain the day before ... etc.. the only way to compare is if they run on the same track on the same day.  The fact that Sham ran so close to Secretariat tells me the track was really fast that day and conditions were right.  Big Brown ran 4 wide all the way around and won by 5 in 30 mph winds.  I believe BB got a minus 1 for that performance the best ever...anyone remember what Secretariat got...

Draynay,

I notice you throwing out times again when in fact after the Stephen Foster you made the remark that they must have timed that race with a sundial.  BB's races havent' even come close to records and his derby was not any better than Barbaro's.  Twenty hole or no.

Atthebarn2,

Sounds like a great plan to me!  I'll be glad to do whatever I can to help.

Draynay,

You don't need to say all those things again about the greatest derby ever run by the greatest horse ever born.  We all know how you feel but you will never get the rest of us to feel the way you do.  I'm not that impressed.  Yes, he's a good horse and yes his derby was exceptional but it's not the greatest in my opinion.  We differ in our opinions.  You have yours, I have mine as does everyone else.  No one is telling you to believe any differently and I won't believe any differently than I do.  One thing  you have done though is throw out more excuses for his Belmont than I've ever heard.  He lost.  He's not undefeated but that's no crime.  Only a few have been undefeated.  You said the Belmont was a cinch, it wasn't.  

Wanda!

Hope you're enjoying yourself!  It's always nice to hear from you.  Catch up with us when you can.

Atthebarn2,

You must have read my post regardimg times.  2 horses race 1 1/8 mile both run the same time.  Had they raced together on the same track, would they not hit the wire at the same time or is the track that BB ran on a much slower track and he, of course, is the hetter horse?  I realize tracks are different and different times are clocked on different surfaces but I would say that if two horse run the same distance at the same time even if the track is different they are pretty equal unless one surface is super fast and the other is super deep.  What think you?  I realize we have the leading authority on horse racing on this blog and he is right about everything and I know nothing but I would like another opinion.

Wanda, welcome to my world, I said I work about 18 hrs a day and someone disputed that. but here I am. I was tending to a sick mare on the farm.  The filly isn't the one who'll need the Winstrol, she doesn't need anything and the only one around here that gets steroids is me when my arthritis flares. She's just meaner that heck naturally. She'll sure bite you. she got into another mare's paddock the other day, still not sure how. Well I rescued her and turned to walk out and she came running up to try and bite my backside off, did it three times before I finally ran her off, she was going to savage me I'm sure of it. I think she's just bored though, tons of personality but obstinate and runs like the devil's chasing her. As far as BB and Dutrow. What bothers me is the kind of fan the colt seems to be attracting, most are okay but a couple are obsessed, if you get my drift. If it was a human it would be considered stalking. I sure would like him to ride my filly. Her dam and granddam are/were both mean too, just weren't biters and kickers,I've got to break her of that but I'd like her to do a little target practice on someone first. Monica, Have you gotten a chance to see Cigar yet? Wanda hope your celebration goes well.

Wait a minute ... I said the Florida

Derby was a cinch and the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness and it was...funny thing.. YOU DIDN'T mention that...hmmm

I should have known he was going to get stepped on in the Belmont by a Maiden and his shoe ripped half off and bent with a nail sticking out.... why didn't I see that coming ?  As far a your opinion, yes you Secretariat people like you like to remember the Triple Crown races... never mind he got beat before and after those races... funny thing about Curlin its just the opposite everyone wants to forget the Triple Crown races and talk about what he did after. Curlin is a wonderful horse but he reminds us each day just how bad the owners have damaged a sport we all love.  You can see why racing continues to spiral downward...there is no leadership. Retiring the best horses each year has watered down racing so bad that there is nothing left to take on the 3 year olds who will dominate the older horses this year like never before. Tiago? Grasshopper? Frost Giant ??? Lol...yeah right.

Monica, If you were comparing same tracks, which I think you were,in this day &age of computerizattion I know there's a way to animate a race by breaking down the stride of two horses, motion etc. I'm not sure of the technical side of it but I have an owner who can do all that stuff. I could see if they would take the time to do it but I'm pretty sure what they'd come up with, it's just logical. The other thing I feel is the tracks of today-dirt-are better prepared and maintained with the advent of better equipment etc. I still say if you ask any trainer, owner or jockey which colt they'd rather have (assuming both were still alive) they would choose Big Red. The Curlin argument well I'll agree, I have agreed several times that the connections are even more dubious, a lot have said that but when a person let's their emotions run away with themselves they put on the proverbial full cup blinkers, and don't really read other peoples views. Then they interpret those views and consider that they are above anyone else in the world and only their opinion matters. The proof of that is the statement about track conditions for the Derby. The track was sealed, the wind kicked up, it was sunny and the track was officially labeled as FAST, conditions were ideal that day from what i saw.(The 'experts' labeled it, so since experts don't exist it was sloppy I guess.The last sloppy track was 2004 and the last muddy track was Unbridled in 1990, I think.) Track maintenance has advanced so much, soil mixture is a science now, drainage, full time track supers and I would definitely rather run on a dirt track of today than the ones we ran on 35-45 years ago. I've come to the conclusion that the tired (and tiring)excuses by someone who has sparred with every reasonable person on this board,is a guy who must have won money on BB in the first 2 races, good for him,  and like a ton of others lost on BBin the Belmont. I don't think he's the owner, they aren't quite that objectionable. The trainer, hmm that is a possibility. The other thing I found interesting about the Belmont is attendance was 94,000  and not the 100,000+ they expected, it'd be interesting to explore the reasons behind that. As far as retiring horses after 3 yes, and where will BB be at this time next year? At least Curlin is still running. As far as no leadership in racing, well that's true but it did pretty well before but times change. My problem is some of the leadership in sports, politics etc makes it scary, but we'll soldier on until the time we die or it changes/goes away but it really only affects the daily lives of those who live the profession so we'll have to adapt and adjust to survive personally.

Draynay,

If BB were to run 21 times I'll bet he would lose some of those races.  He's already lost one in 6 tries.

Atthebarn2,

Yet another well written post!  I hope SA gets all their track troubles behind them.  The track they had was more like dirt from what I understand.  They are installing another one now for the BC.  Santa Anita is only 10 miles from me and I love going there.  It is so beautiful.

Our friend still keeps mentioning the maiden and the loose shoe.  If that hadn't happened, BB would have won but I really don't think so.  It makes him feel good to think that so I won't say anything.

I have not seen Cigar.  I could never really get behind that horse for some reason.  I don't know why.

I think because he was the only outstanding horse running at the time. There were no Easy Goers or Sunday Silences running at the time.  Cigar was it.  His races were never exciting to me.  16 in a row is impressive.  Remember Arazi?  He was a flash in the pan.

Won the BCJ in style and won one mare race after a long lay off and couldn't even be found in the Derby.  He was the next wonder horse that didn't happen.

Guess I've talked long enough.  Would love to know an analysis of my earlier question re: BB & Col John though.

Shoe or no shoe, and whatever trip problems going into the first turn had resolved itself by the 1/2 mile pole where he was third in a good enough stalking position.  When the jockey called on him he reportedly had "No horse."  Great horses find a way to win (Alysheba's stumbling to his knees) despite adversity and even the best get beat by the likes of Onion.  BB simply got beat, probably not by better horses, but fresher ones and ones who had smarter trainers.  Big Brown simply did the big bounce.  

Monica, maybe the connections and jock on Cigar, Billy Mott's a good guy though. I can ask my owner to do something with that Col John deal.I do think it might be hard to factor in different track surfaces etc but you might be able to do something with it. It would make an interesting project. What I don't understand is the thing about the fresh horses trying to stop a TC winner. What should everyone have done? Said we're not running if we're fresh, then the race wouldn't have been run at all and he would've been crowned by default? Then racing would haver really been a laughingstock. Try winning the TC of Quarter Horse Racing only been done a couple of times 6 races to decide the crown. (trial for each race, then the race) Householder, you hit the nail on the head. Monica I want to tell you that a friend of mine read these posts I said it was me and he thought I'd been abducted by aliens and altered. Said he always knew I was a deep thinker but saw more words here than I've spoken in the 30+ years we've known each other. That's pretty embarrassing, but maybe that's our nemesis' deal, he writes under cover differently than he is in real life.

Draynay your quote "Curlin is a wonderful horse but he reminds us each day how bad the owners have damaged a sport we all love" Are you mixed up, don't you mean BB's owners? How in heavens name has Mr Jackson damaged the sport? Thanks for the reality check Atthebarn2. I shouldn't whine about working 11 hour days and once the Stampede starts it's a whole lot of fun for 10 days.I see Draynay is still making the shoe thing and lugging out into another horse a bigger deal than it is. Good luck with that one.Somebody has it out for Larry Jones I see. If I ever caught the son of a ***** that let out those horses he'd be in the emergency room of some hospital.How brainless can you be to let horses out of their stalls to run around the backside at 2:00 in the morning.

Atthebarn2,

You never say too much you say what needs to be said and it is always said well.  You have years of experience and many things to say.  I'm not surprised that a longtime friend would say you don't talk much, it's all in your mind and the best way for you to express it is to write it.  You can sort your thoughts and put down what you need to.  I have often thought that in some situations in my life, I could have handled it better with a letter so I could gather my thoughts and put them down in a manner that would be more meaningful and often time when you speak with someone you will forget points you could have made.  Makes sense to me that you write more than you speak and when you write all that experience is shared with the rest of us and I thank you for that.  On these blogs, there have been several people in the industry sharing their knowledge and experince and it's a real treat for me.  I love picking horseman's brains because you have a job I would have dearly loved to have had.  I watched a show about horse racing, had to have been over 20 years ago.  Charlie Whittingham was being interviewed and he was in his 70's and the person interviewing him asked him if he would retire someday.  Charlie said no, why would he retire.  He said I love what I do, I jump out of bed at 4am every morning and can't wait to get to the track.  He said the only way he would quit was when they buried him and he was right.  I thought how wonderful it must be to do something that you love that much because you spend most of your life working and earning a living but to love it so much you're glad to get up at 4am....Wow!  I've never been glad to get up at 4 am!  I think I would if I was training horses though.  I have always loved them and racing is fascinting, simply fascinating.  I'm an accountant and it can be a challenge and can be rewarding but it's really just a job.  I make a fairly good living but there is no passion in it, only numbers.

Atthebarn2,

I had nothing against the connections at all!  Bill Mott is an excellent trainer and seems like a very nice man. Cigar never learned to run until he was 5 and he just came out of nowhere because he wasn't very good until then.  There were no other really good horses so there was never any real challenge for him.  Yes, indeed, he was the best horse running at that time and I wouldn't say differently but he just didn't give me chills when he ran.  Neither did Skipaway, who was a very good horse too.  Bernardini was a very good horse but after Barbaro broke down, who really cared who won the Preakness or the Belmont?  Then off he went to stud.  They are never around anymore.  I did know the CPA's that did Mr. Paulson's taxes and they were very high on the horse, of course!  It's not that I disliked him, I didn't.  I just couldn't feel much for him.  I don't really know why.

Atthebarn2,

Didn't PVal ride Cigar?  Seemed to me he had a contract with Paulson to ride his horses.  There is an excellent and talented jockey who can't get his life straightened out.  He's so gifted but he just keeps throwing it away. So sad.

Monica, Yes you're right some horses just don't give us that special feeling. Like when you meet the love of your life kind of feeling almost. I had a little filly years ago, a descendent of of Tom Fool I think great grandsire. Dam was the one with the super breeding. She was a nice stakes filly and a sweetheart. She had a funny way of running with her head way down and the jock always said he felt like he was going to go off the front of her but panicked when I told him I'd find someone else. I actually cried when she died, aneurysm to the brain, possible congenital weakness at 4 years old. I foaled her raised her, even bottle fed her when the mare had an RH factor problem. She looked a lot like Serena's Song, ran like her too and won a bunch of races for me, not the biggest Grade 1's but nice minor stakes races. I think Jerry road Cigar in all but one of his races during the streak. Pat is a talented guy with a lot of demons. Heard he rode at last weekend at Sunray in NM and may make it back to Ca soon. Knew his Dad and one uncle way back in the day in NM, seems like a lot of us came through there at one time or another, Jack, Leroy, Wayne, Jake Pletcher that was way back when. And nearly every horseman says the same thing as Charlie. I've said it, Wayne's said it, Jack and a bunch of others. I told a lady friend of ours the other day that they're just going to dig a hole here on the farm and throw me in and I'll be where I love it, don't think it would work at the track unless they cremate me and secretly spread my ashes on the track and the infield. I think someone actually did that.

Miss Wanda, I didn't mean to ignore you. What a great time for you! Folks took me to the Stampede once when I was 8 and I loved it. Such pretty country up that way, my favorite was BC, but Alberta was amazing too, just fascinated me the way it was light at night time.I know you'll do a great job for them with your passion for horses. One of the in laws is roping in Cheyenne in a couple weeks, that's a great one too.  I'm not a huge fan of Jess Jackson but to each his own and a first for me defending Draynay, I think what those lawyers that originally owned him and have a minority in him now was terrible. Steve's troubles well, that is really bad for us in racing true or not.

More Onions Please!  Three days earlier Secretariat's stable-mate, Riva Ridge was upset by a 50-1 shot by the name of Wichita Oil.  After Cigar's upset in the Pacific Classic..."I knew before the quarter pole, I could hear him (Dare and Go) coming.  I didn't have a lot of horse left" (Jerry Bailey). He (Cigar) would later be beaten by Alphabet Soup.  Finally, Sunday Silence returns to California after taking 2/3rds of the Triple Crown only to get beat in the Swaps by Prized.  Great horses get beat by lesser ones after their huge races.  Secretariat, Cigar, Sunday Silence all rebounded to make the top 10 of all time.  Let's hope BB can do the same.  The owners will have to keep Dutrow on a short leash and if they plan it to retire BB after the Breeder's Cup this horse may never win again.  Despite the retirement of Heatseeker there remains a lot of horses who love the synthetic track at Santa Anita (Col John who was recently mentioned is rumored to be headed to Del Mar...loves the surface).    

Charlie Whittingham...After Sunday Silence had won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness I remember the "Bald Eagle" hanging around in the paddock one day at SA after the crowd had gone to the windows to bet.  I yelled out "How is Sunday Silence doing?"  He replied "So far so good."  Simply a class act.  He didn't say "Go to the window," "It's a done deal," or "We (the syndicate) stand to loose 60 million in endorsements if he looses."  Unlike Dutrow, he simply knew better.  

Wanda.... Curlin reminds us of how owners are ruining the sport because he sticks out amongst older horses because there is no Street Sense or Hard Spun etc...  Remember the reason Curlin runs is because the owner is in his 80's and his future is now AND he is already very rich.  What does another 100 million do when you already have that and your 80+ ??? The future is now !!!  Wouldn't you like to see Hard Spun and Curlin go at it ?

Monica, Wanda amd the rest of you who like the old timers. Did you read the blog by Steve Haskins? Good memories about some good old time horses. Didn't see you on the posts, only one negative guy over there beating up us older folks but the rest enjoyed it. I may not post again my better half may rule me off, thinks I'm a silly old fool for doing this, but for the most part it's been fun for an old fool.

Householder... did you ever play High School or College Sports ?  Have you ever had dozens of reporters sticking microphones in your face asking you question after question?

Two minutes can define a mans career in the sport of Kings.  When you reach the top after crawling for years to get there excuse the man if he feels really good about his chances and expresses the way HE chooses to express it.  Dutrow is not a bad man he is flawed just like all the rest of us except his are on public display.  Its easy to see the bad in everyone but its more charitable to look for the good. Householder next time you want to throw a stone why not just stick it in your pocket and move along.  I am sure Dutrow has had his fill of stones in his yard this year...

People,can we Please stick to the topics at hand?...thx.

I've been reading this for a while, chuckling mostly. Slew, who are you addressing you comment to? If it's some of the folks talking about other horses and such,I read it as all pointing back to the subject at hand. All of the blogs have been interwoven for a while now. If people only stuck to one specific point there'd be 10 posts and that's what makes Jason's blogs so good, the interest he generates.You used analogies in your posts as well and good ones they were. if you're talking to Draynay, right on. Not that I like to jump on a guy when he's down but I think everyone has his point of view etched into their minds.  I'm really surprised to find he's still on this board but sadly a lot of the people with good things to say have dropped off. Karen, DocFarmer and so on. They may not have said what people wanted to hear but it was a different view. I really have never seen a guy like him on any boards outside of the hard core stuff where anything goes, name calling etc. Bet Jason has to edit like crazy and if Draynay would realize that he'd realize that some of the posts that are on here have also been edited and might leave out full sentences. Just from observation I think Draynay hates Monica because she likes Atthebarn who Draynay hates because he's a real horseman. Then draynay just hates all the rest because he's a hater period. I hope Jason and all the rest of the handicappers are out there winning the big bucks this weekend.

Slew, I did read a blog where you gave props to the old guy trainer Atthebarn and told Dray to shut up so I think I see it now. You, Atthebarn, Mike Relva just to name a few have a really good take on all of this.

Me a hater ? Lol... far from it bradgm. I just go nuts when people say stuff and have nothing to back it up. For example.. the first 95% of your post was really justboring drivel.  Then at the very end you said something exciting...Handicappers !!! Now if you would like to show everyone how smart you are tell me who is going to win the 7th race at Belmont tomorrow and why.  Monica join in if you like... Slew...spit out your gum and you give it a try too...I don't want you getting confused trying 2 things at once. Everyone post your winner for the 7th at Belmont and then tell us why....

bradgm,

I don't know that Draynay hates anyone as he just hates that they don't agree with him.  He is the nastiest, most disagreeable person I've seen here for sure.  Maybe he's that way because he feels powerful calling names and being so insulting.  It would seem that no one is allowed to think differently than he is.  He tells a trainer who has been training for many years that he doesn't know anything!  What are Draynay's qualifications to say things like that?  I'm no expert on horses or horse racing but I have been following it for many years and do have opinions.  He acts as though he knows more than anybody.  I believe he's the kind of person who is pushed around alot in his life and can vent his frustration and anger on a blog like this because no one knows who he is.  He latches on to things and is like a bulldog with a bone.  At times it is amusing but sometimes it's annoying.  I just don't get anyone who has to abuse everyone like that when he is the one who knows nothing.

Has all the bickering been about handicapping?  That was not my take on it.  I'm having company this weekend so I may not have the time but I will try, depends on what goes on.

Thx,bradgm: point well taken,as far as sticking to the Primary subject at 1st,then from there we can all veer-off slightly,but at the end it should all be relevant.I've given Jason his fair share of props myself(j/k),for his blogs on this spectacular sport..I agree in that others shouldn't stop posting their views on here,especially if their turned-off or even worse,intimidated by Down-trodden draynay,aka..Ignorant Iguana,aka..the Winstrol Woebegone(lol)..hoo-rah!

I'll start again, I was posting and my kid hit the key board, I won't touch him with the whip, Mom would give me a permanent suspension and missing body parts (JUST KIDDING FOLKS)

SLEW,

Usually these boards just degenerate and die or are killed by the moderator. There are still some good points being made here by a bunch of people and one is still flapping their gums but Draynay did that from the beginning. And by the way Draynay, you must suck as a handicapper because you keep asking people to pick winners for you especially when they make a valid point that doesn't match yours. Nobody has touted you yet. Nobody's going to because they don't want you to win a dime,they hope you get your computer repossessed so you can't post anymore. I've been a board moderator before and frankly guys like you would have been gone long ago because all it turns into is a slop slinging match and people with a brain leaving the board. I'd give you a +100mil on the drivel factor and -150 mil on the Rep factor.Monica, Yes this is a handicapping board

"Dedicated to handicappers with an interest in chatting about Thoroughbred racing, especially those horses on the Triple Crown trail." I really think Draynay lost a bundle on BB and is mad (changed the word), even the old trainer guy mentioned it. Most of us lost on that unless we had a backup of Zito the mini giant killer thank you sir. But it is also good for information. If you gamble, great I hope you win. If you don't great, just keep that passion you and all the good guys have on here.

Monica... what trainer did I say didn't know anything.  The funny part about all of this is you and others put words in my mouth I never said.

And by the way... I never call people names or attempt to insult them.  I may think your statements are a little crazy or nuts but I do not make it personal. People on these blogs say things and believe things that are not true but does that make them a bad person...no just misinformed.

This post is about Big Brown getting his shoe stepped on and bent.  Now people can post their opinion and I can think the opinion is good or bad.  When people pretend to know for fact it had no effect I laugh because only the horse knows for sure and he ain't talking but my evidence is every other race he has run in without getting his shoe stepped on and bent...look at all of them and tell me how he did.  That is all the proof I need.  Anyone who says it had no effect is talking silly because he simply can't know for sure.

bradgm,

I realize it's a handicapping board but I don't think any of the problems are related to handicapping.  Actually, not too much handicapping has been dicussed here but on other portions of this board it is.

Draynay,

you simply can't know for sure either.

Draynay. I am writing this as a reasonable man, read it in the same vein. You need to actually read what others write and realize what you write because unlike what you say- writing is proof positive and hard copy evidence. You want people to cut and paste about everyone you insulted? there isn't enough room on this board. You insulted Atthebarn, Wayne Lukas and a bunch of others who said it shouldn't have affected it, and others who stated historical evidence and recent evidence (The Mother Goose) that shows a great horse can win with a loose, bent or lack of a shoe. The fact that you have as many excuses as the owner is just strange, Iavarone lost millions in bonuses from R Clay when Brown didn't win the Crown, you didn't, he needs the excuses not you. You expounded on every issue that was out there as an expert and everyone else is misinformed, ignorant, crazy and there are no experts according to you. If you think you don't make it personal you are way off base I 'personally' hate it when people say that and their other words speak differently, yes you made it personal ask anyone on this board. I'm sure a lot of what you really said was edited out and probably a lot of the responses got edited and blocked but I've seen your kind before and they love making people mad. Just as you say the folks don't know for sure, neither do you, face it. I think you have done almost as much as Rick Dutrow to make people dislike a poor defenseless colt who doesn't deserve you as a supporter or Dutrow as a trainer. I know it's all about freedom of speech but you've turned these boards into a mockery of what Jason has attempted to accomplish and do you think it helps horse racing to rant and rave like a maniac. If you had been on a board I moderated you'd be history no matter how many hits it gave the blog, because people who don't have a limited agenda come back again and again in the long run. I dare you to follow the old trainer on this board or any of the others around for just one month and see what they do and how well they know the horses, they've seen about everything there is to see and you might do well to listen to some of what's being said by the owners and trainers I've learned a lot of what to look for and whereas they can't tell you for sure if their horse will win, there'd be no gambling because that's what gambling is, taking a chance.Most just have a feel for how the horse is doing. You also contradicted yourself because you bought into the guarantee by Dutrow that Jason quoted "Foregone conclusion" bb will win.  Jason, fellow posters, forgive the long post but I only posted a couple of times so maybe I'm entitled.

draynay,I suppose you're referring to me as one of the ones calling you names?..haha,relax,I do it in gest,not getting personal.But in fact you DO insult others by trying to belittle them and their thoughts."you know nothing..come back later and and tell me how smart you are",calling people "minions"is just some of the many examples of your rantings..to many it may seem mean or insulting,but that wont deter me!..so lets just keep this thing rolling til' the wheels fall off..you Abstracted ?(nevermind)..hoo-rah!

Jason you called it. So what do you think of them wheeling Einstein back so quick? He's in my roadtothebreederscup stable and I'm a bit concerned it's to soon.

Wanda, I've been reading your posts, you and Monica are awesome ladies, hope Monica didn't take what I said wrong. I saw the trainer is talking about the sales and the pick six at Belmont, got a little excited about the amount but Jason gently corrected him. The trainer cracks me up when he talks about the old guys, like the 'Druggist' (real old school) he came up with the likes of Lukas, Van Berg, those guys are in their 70's he's probably not far off, awesome they all sound pretty sharp and Lukas found the fountain of youth. Are you going for it 160 grand or somewhere around that. Einstein, a little quick on the comeback and on Turf, interesting. Sounds like you have some good ones on your Breeders Cup line up.

Bradgm,

No, I didn't take what you said wrong.  I have really enjoyed this board and I'm glad you posted.

Slew.em.all you and I lol... have no problem but it seems I got bradgm's panties all in a bunch.  Let's start with "rant and rave like a maniac"

Those are pretty big words bradgm would you like to cut and paste and show me where I "ranted and raved like a maniac"... If your going to accuse me on this board and call me out... go ahead and state your case show me my previous "ranting and raving like a maniac. Second... I will submit proof that is was the bent up half off shoe that screwed up Big Brown and his chance at the Triple Crown... I will submit 3 pieces of evidence for you....

1) The Florida Derby

2) The Kentucky Derby

3) The Preakness

I have more proof but that should do it.  Notice in all those races his shoe on his back foot is fine.

Now that you and Monica have the proof I am sure we can put this to bed.

You know, it strikes me funny that the only place they’re still talking about this is here. The questionable logic that because the colt won races, then lost with a loose shoe has one fatal flaw: Horses lose races all the time, I’m sure Cigar didn’t plan on losing that one in his record setting run. It’s called racing luck and it happened to 11 others before Big Brown.. We just keep rehashing all of this because one person repeats his various excuses over and over,. There were rumors and opinions on the backside, people with expertise and insight into their own profession. Mostly everyone has moved past that more so than they have moved past the arrogance of the trainer, who was the face of racing on that day and an ugly face it was (figuratively speaking)  Even after Brown opens his invitation to the Haskell, runs in it (I have a theory on that) if he wins, well he won another race but he still didn’t win the Belmont and in fact didn’t even make a race of it, no matter what the reason. There won’t be an asterisk next to Da’Tara’s name saying Big Brown would have won this race and the Triple Crown if he hadn’t _________ (fill in the blanks).. The only colt with an excuse in the 12 near misses was Charismatic, because, unlike a loose shoe, a horse can’t run on a broken leg for very long.  War Emblem went to his knees his excuse, but Rags did the same and won the race. Baffert admitted his colt  had to get to the front and run  unimpeded.

I know I would never believe the  opinion of an admitted steroid user who even admits to injecting his buddy, especially now when everyone is telling kids in High School and college, it is a killer. I also know from my many years on this earth, that Draynay is the type of person who wants the last word right or wrong because it makes them feel powerful and victorious. So let him post it Jason,  blog a new subject and let’s get on with our lives, those of us who have one anyway.

That is not proof.  He ran 3 great races and threw in a clinker. He didn't win the Belmont.  He did not win the triple crown.  If it was the shoe then that's horse racing.  You'll have to wait for his next 2 races.

Having ridden horses since my dad put me up on one at the age of two and competed in barrelracing at rodeos I think that I can say that I have some experience in horses along with the fact that we bred our own horses so in regards to the shoe which is being rehashed again in the Blood Horse well if the jockey says that he did not feel Big Brown running differently because of the shoe then the shoe was not the issue. I have been on horses that have thrown shoes, bent shoes and had stones lodged in their shoes and believe me if it is bothering them they will express it by not wanting to put any pressure on that foot. Big Brown continued to run and as stated by others appeared angry when he was pulled up and walked just fine, no limp, no bucking, no outward suggestion of pain or discomfort. So, lets put this issue to bed now. And as for Draynay and the comments he has made to others he did address me once and without knowing of my experience with horses told me I had no idea what I was talking about, that I lacked experience. When comments are directed at oneself we tend to remember them.

Sunday Silence raced the last 2 legs of the Triple Crown with a brused hoof.  He missed 3-4 days of training prior to the Preakness (training in a bar shoe that was left on, just clipped at the back) and still put away a horse that many said could not be beat.  Good horses find a way to overcome adversity (much like Alysheba's stretch run against Bet Twice).  This is what turns good into greatness.  As another stated...and I agree 100%, great horses don't bring the track with them. They win at every track under every condition.