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Fountain of Youth and Sham Thoughts

Another week, another new Kentucky Derby contender from Florida. Actually, make that two.

With Quality Road's resounding win in the Fountain of Youth and Theregoesjojo's impressive runner-up, the Florida picture has certainly become much clearer. Notontheamepage and This Ones for Phil, who both bounced like racquetballs, and Capt. Candyman Can took major steps backward, while Beethoven remained on the cusp of the Derby picture.

But in the Florida Derby should now be much easier to handicap than the FOY was, as Quality Road, Theregoesjojo and Dunkirk seem to be the three to beat. I'm not sure about you, but there isn't much else from South Florida that scares me for May 2nd.

So how good was Quality Road's FOY win? It's hard to tell simply because of Gulfstream's unrelenting speed bias. With the exception of Beethoven, who closed very well from last, and Theregoesjojo, nobody made up ground on the leaders. It's been that way all meet.

First, the positives. Quality Road was visually impressive. He rated well and showed great speed when drawing off in the stretch. And his final time of 1:35 was very solid. The Elusive Quality colt has nice 10-furlong pedigree and should want to go longer. To do what he did in his third career start was terrific, no question about it. I'm not sure what his Beyer was yet, but to me it doesn't matter on that track right now. The 114 by Notonthesamepage and 116 by This Ones for Phil last out shows how little speed numbers mean sometimes.

As good as Quality Road looked, I am not completely sold yet. First, it must be noted that he was receiving 6-8 pounds from most of the other starters, which is fairly significant. He was also on lasix for the first time, which can add that extra zip to a lot of horses. He also received a perfect stalking trip in back of a fast pace (:45.55 and 1:09.40), and like I said, nobody is closing on that track.

I like Quality Road. His talent is obvious. But like Dunkirk, I'm not one to get overly-excited about one win. With horses that don't have much 2-year-old foundation, I need to see it two races in a row. Let's keep it all in perspective until the Florida Derby.

Theregoesjojo was actually slightly more impressive to me. For the second straight race he made a monster move around the turn. In watching the replay, I have to question why Desormeaux took him wide. It looked like there was plenty of room on the rail if he had stayed there and he would have had a much better run at Quality Road had he saved the ground. I'm not saying he would have beat the winner, but he certainly wouldn't have lost by four lengths. I think this horse will only get better and better. And don't forget, he has two starts over the Churchill dirt. He is for real.

Again, Beethoven closing from last on a dead track must be noted. I've never been super high on this horse, but he deserves respect for making up all that ground when nobody else did. He gets another chance.

As a side note, there were two very good-looking maiden winners on the FOY undercard on Saturday worth mentioning. First, in race 5, Smarty Bull won a $30,000 maiden claimer by seven lengths in her first start. Her final time of 1:11.78 for six furlongs wasn't great, but it's a Smarty Jones, so worth mentioning. She is out of a Holy Bull mare and trained by Jason Servis.

Then, in race 10, Affirmatif drew off like a rocket to win by nine lengths on the turf in a one-mile maiden special weight. By Unbridled's Song, who is having a heck of a winter, Affirmatif is out of the Affirmed mare Wichitoz. It will be interesting to see what Todd Pletcher has in mind for this colt.

As far as the Sham, give The Pamplemousse his due. The horse looks like he wants to run all day and he has really nice leg action. He certainly hasn't done anything wrong up until this point. He's a nice story.

However, let's be honest. That field was pretty weak. There was nothing in there that will be a factor in the Derby and when you let a fast horse like The Pamplemousse alone on the lead, that's what happens. I want to see this horse headed. I want to see him face some quality. He beat four horses in the San Rafael and nothing of note in the Sham. I want to wait until to the Santa Anita Derby before I say he's the real deal. It should be fun to see him get a shot at Pioneerof the Nile and Chocolate Candy, and maybe Stardom Bound. Until then, I am reserving judgment. Sorry.

Finally, just a note on a new feature I'll be having on this Triple Crown Talk for the next two months leading up until the Derby. Beginning this Saturday, March 7, I will be doing a "live" blog from noon to 1 p.m EDT. We can use this forum to discuss the Gotham and Santa Anita Handicap later in the day, or anything related to horse racing. I'll be doing it solo this time, but in the future I will have feature guests, including professional handicappers. If you have any question that you'd like to ask, please join in the discussion. It should be fun.

163 Comments:

I'm not giving up on my Capt. just yet.  I'd like to see his owners to give him another chance in the Florida Derby.

Pollas 01 Mar 2009 12:34 PM

Wow. Royally bred and great connections. Jimmy Jerkens learned his trade from the master. Allen never was fortunate enough to get a Derby winner caliber horse. Maybe it's in the cards for Jimmy.

If he runs like this in the Florida Derby, look out.  

The Wizard 01 Mar 2009 12:46 PM

The Cherokee Run influences are certainly coming out in the Pamplemousse so more than one analogy could be made between the Pamplemousse and last year's Illinois Derby winner Recapturetheglory.  It's a nice story though with Solis actually going along on the purchase of this horse.  Why he is not in the Hall of Fame already is beyond me.  Fantastic rider winning the big ones over his 25+ year career.  He deserves one more shot at the Derby.  At 1 1/8 he could be this year's Bob Black Jack and a great test for Pioneer of the Nile and Chocolate Candy (and let's hope Stardom Bound).  As Col. John did last year someone, will have to close the last 1/8 in 12 or under.  Nice acid test for the top west coast contenders.  Brings less clarity but more excitement to the Santa Anita Derby.  This could be our year to make a dent in the Kentucky Derby.

Householder 01 Mar 2009 12:50 PM

I'm actually quite curious to see where the experts put the Pamplemousse on their top ten.  Picking up 2 back to back graded stakes, one at a route, certainly put him above some of the less experienced ones (including Old Fashioned).  Let's see if we drive this one with data or our hearts.

Householder 01 Mar 2009 12:53 PM

Householder:

Pamplemousse looks very good on the fake track. They got the real stuff at Churchill. So perhaps it's a bit early to tout him too much.

Artificial surfaces continue to be a nightmare for handicappers.

At any rate, this is starting to look like a very strong crop of 3yr. olds...exactly opposite of last year.

The Wizard 01 Mar 2009 1:23 PM

Hey Jason,

    Thanks for stealing my words, lol, jk. I saw the race for the second time early this morning and wrote on a few blogs pretty much the same things you just stated about the pamp, lol. Me and you must have been on the same wavelength.

LDP 01 Mar 2009 1:23 PM

I still like the Captain. And I am anxious to see Big Drama run again. Midshipman is out and I am not sure VH is a factor. However if the Derby were run today I would go with Old Fashioned. A lot can happen between now and the Derby.

gammyp6 01 Mar 2009 1:27 PM

Just throw out the horses with no dirt experience.  You are not getting a real premium for taking these horses, so just let them beat you.

Nick G. 01 Mar 2009 2:00 PM

*sigh*

Once again the West Coast competition is dismissed as weak and full of nobodies.

Although I did expect more from Mr. Hot Stuff but hey, he nabbed third, I'm pretty happy. And the Moose looks like he can go on for quite a ways. Can't wait to see him pop up in the SA Derby against Pioneer and Candy and hopefully Stardom Bound.

Justine 01 Mar 2009 2:18 PM

Jason:

Your post race analysis' are fair and concise..The next round of preps should be even more exciting...I still think Beethoven should run in the Wood Memorial to show his best...The FLA. horses are looking pretty good though,with the first 3 finishers in the FOY along with Dunkirk and General Quarters(who has to run another corker to be taking seriously)..I think the top contenders in the West have separated themselves from the pack,them being:  POTN,The Pamps',Stardom Bound and to some degree,Chocolate Candy right behind them.

Friesan Fire is tops in LA.The others out there have to catch-up to him.

Can't wait for the Rebel and Gotham.These races should show who belongs in the TC Trail.

Slew.em.All 01 Mar 2009 2:36 PM

Jason I think you are 100% right let's not get too excited until the Florida Derby.  The good news is we don't have to hear anything about Taqarub anymore.  I will be interested in the Beyer Quality Road earns for his last effort.  2 races with a Beyer over 100 is impressive and he should be able to handle Dunkirk with no problem.

Draynay 01 Mar 2009 3:11 PM

The Pamplemouse was asked, "What about the quality of the horses behind you in the Sham?"

The Pamplemousse replied, "Who cares?"

To not give that horse his due for the race yesterday is just stupid.  Unlike horses that get to run for about 3/8ths of a mile into a good pace, he ran all the way around there and shaded 1:48.  Not his fault that he was that much the best.  And I don't think he needs the lead.

Barbara 01 Mar 2009 3:24 PM

Barbara: I did The Pamplemouse his due. In fact, I wrote, "give him his due." LOL.

Mark: Thanks for the correction.

jshandler 01 Mar 2009 3:28 PM

Um, Jason, that was my point?  You wrote give him his due and I wrote that it would be stupid to not do so...since you also bashed the quality of the fields he has faced (after noting that FL. also rans had little to offer as well) and questioned his running style - which is nothing more than a high cruising speed - that does not make him one dimensional front runner.  For the record, Take the Points and Mr. Hot Stuff ran good races, too.  BTW, Pamplemousse high leg action is not favored by some.  

Barbara 01 Mar 2009 3:44 PM

I love the Pamplemousse but POFTN could be better. But no one will know until the Santa Anita Derby. Barbara your comment made me laugh.

Majella from Ireland 01 Mar 2009 3:47 PM

The only horses people should dismiss are the ones who are backing-up and not going-on with it during these preps..I think it's ridiculous to think that a so-called "synthetics" horse has no shot on Dirt tracks.Sure,some horses don't care for Synths',but if you have the right bloodlines,why wouldn't the Synths' horses like the dirt.It'll be one thing if horses like POTN,Stardom Bound and The Pamps' had turf breeding,but they don't..Now seriously folks,..do you really think these 3 will have a problem with the dirt surfaces?...Just watch what I Want Revenge does to the Gotham field next weekend.(remember he's from Cali,home of the Synths').

Slew.em.All 01 Mar 2009 3:55 PM

I don'tthink the Florida Derby will have anything running in it for the Kentucky Derby. I look to Lousiana, Oaklawn and Santa Anita

m. burry 01 Mar 2009 4:00 PM

Draynay,

Funny how you're spouting about the importance of the Beyer rating for Quality Road. Remember last year when you constantly downplayed Beyer ratings when it was pointed out by many of us that Curlin consistently recorded higher Beyers than Big Brown? I do. You're a hoot!

The Wizard 01 Mar 2009 4:02 PM

The Pamplemousse: the next Came Home, or the next Sunday Silence?

Dutch 01 Mar 2009 4:11 PM

Barbara: You are obviously defensive of your Cali horses. That's fine. Go ahead. Someone has to stick up for them. Their recent Derby performances can't defend themselves. LOL.

Seriously, The Pamplemousse is a nice horse. I'm not criticizing him. I hope he is as good as you think he is.

jshandler 01 Mar 2009 4:17 PM

I think the Pamplemousse is the one to watch. I would like to see him run on dirt before I would place a wager on him as my Derby horse. He is a big strapping colt that looks like a classic distance stayer and appears to have a good mind. I love the way he runs; it is similar to Barbaro's

ofelia 01 Mar 2009 4:19 PM

TO THE WIZARD:

Regarding you taking Draynay to task about what he said last year,so what! What does last year have to do with this year?

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 4:31 PM

HELLO JASON:

Have to admit the Pamplemousse seems the real deal,but I've always like Pioneer from the very beginning and feel he is better.

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 4:44 PM

Barbara, I must agree with you..The PM's race was just too smooth to be anything other then legit, and I too happen to think that Take the Points did well for facing The Pm being in the "zone", TTP connections I'm sure were quite proud because he tried hard the whole race.

Your right about high action too, it isn't favored by many in this biz, but for some that style works well for them..(Unbridled, SkipAway, Black Tie Affair, Sea Cadet to name a few) and I don't think any of them retired because of injury. He "seems" to be an iron horse, that's the feeling I got while watching him do his thing. Either way, derby winner or not, I believe we will be hearing from him thoughout, whether it be at just a mile on artificial, or over a mile on anything. I for one hope we have a banner yr with several top horses taking punches at each other, including the fillies...

SundaySilenced 01 Mar 2009 4:44 PM

i didn't think the pamplemousee was that good. he made me eat my words. i think hes amazing and now definitely one of my derby favorites!:)

pampy 01 Mar 2009 4:47 PM

The continuing bias against West Coast horses never fails to amaze me. When I first starting watching races 20 years ago,there were those who said Sunday Silence would never beat Easy Goer - and it was clear who was the better horse. I think the best derby contenders are currently west coast horses - Pioneer of the Nile, Stardom Bound and The Pamplemoose. Sad that all the east coast writers either ignore them or discount their chances.

AnneM 01 Mar 2009 5:02 PM

Looks loke Godolphins chances of winning the Ky Derby are starting to fade... Desert Party is the only one with a chance now. Unless Vineyard Haven bounces back fast.

Majella from Ireland 01 Mar 2009 5:05 PM

An unwise nay nay once said (this year in fact) that give him a horse who goes 6f in 1:10 and the mile in 1:35 and that would be his Derby winner. With 4 horses who met those criteria this weekend alone it looks like a multiple dead heat in the Derby based on nay nay's contention. But wait now he's saying it doesn't mean much and we need to wait for the Fla. Derby? nay nay must be a politician the way he changes his opinions constantly.

I'm in agreement with Jason on Theregoesjojo, he ran a very nice race against a big bias and his fractions were in the 1:10 for 6f range and the 1:35 mile range. Obviously Quality Road met those numbers too. On the west coast The Pamplemousse met that criteria as well. Doing it on the fake stuff doesn't mean as much to me but he sure looked good. As for Beethoven he comes from too far back for me to consider him a Derby winning threat. History has not been kind to closers in the Derby. He needs to show alot more early zip and sustain his closing kick to move up.

For me Quality Road, Theregoesjojo, and the "Mousse" were the only ones this weekend who improved their stock. Mr. Hot Stuff is another who lays too far back and Take The Points slowed down too much in the drive (13.6 final furlong)although he was another who fit nay nay's 1:10 and 1:35 criteria.  The others were also rans and would have to jump up and run off the page next out to merit future consideration for a Derby win and most have raced enough to eliminate a high probability of big improvement.

draynot 01 Mar 2009 5:27 PM

"Notonthesamepage was an impressive front-running winner of the Spectacular Bid on Jan. 3. With a fast pace expected in the Fountain of Youth, Ken Ramsey, Ward and jockey Elvis Trujillo decided to experiment with taking back off the pace. Ramsey now regrets that call."

“I told them let’s see if he can take back, but it now looks like that put stress on him,” Ramsey said. “We’ve studied why horses bleed like this and it’s always the stress. We thought maybe we could take him back and send him a signal when it was time to go, but instead it just stressed him out. It was bad timing.”

Just as I thought... I would like to be able to say what I thought of this "incredible" change of strategy for such an important race but this is a family site and will not say what I think of this decision by Mr. Ward.  And Wizard give it a rest using Beyer numbers are helpful but do not tell the whole story and we all know that.  Beyers can be very telling when a pattern is established but are not the end all be all of handicapping.

I look at 10 to 15 variables each race to determine my favorites.  If you want to egg me on how about waiting until the big races come up and then you can show everyone how smart you are or are not.

Draynay 01 Mar 2009 5:30 PM

JS, you made this about regional bias?  I would like the PM if he ran over broken glass in your back yard...if he ran as fast and well as he did yesterday;)

Besides, last time I checked the PM beat some horse named Square Eddie in Jan, who was supposed to be one of the top 2 yr olds last year...

I love the PM  but my Derby horse is POTN and I will stick with him.  He is most accomplished, consistent, still healthy colt on the trail IMO. Bob and Garrett are worth a couple extra lengths, too.

Barbara 01 Mar 2009 5:38 PM

Draynay: I wasn't right about much in the FOY, but I did have Notonthesamepage pegged. If you look at my analysis I told you Ramsey wasn't dead-set on getting this horse to the lead and it appears he bled pretty bad. That hyperbaric chamber experiemnt was very telling.

Barbara: Best of luck with your selections.

jshandler 01 Mar 2009 5:43 PM

Jason... you mean I am going to have to add the "hyberaric chamber" angle to my handicapping ?  Why don't trainers try experiments in training instead of during important Grades Stakes races.... just a thought.  There is NOTHING wrong with being a front running horse if no one can catch you.

Draynay 01 Mar 2009 5:59 PM

I thought Quality Road was impressive but I still favor Old Fashioned at this time.  I also like Hello Broadway a lot but need to see more from him.

Ann & Justine:  I didn't read where anyone said anything negative about the quality or ability of the "west coast" horses.  The item in question is whether their synthetic form will transfer to the dirt.  

Racingfan 01 Mar 2009 6:18 PM

The Wizard...I'm not too high on the Pamplemousse.  At 1 1/8th though he could be tough against Pioneer and Chocolate Candy who have far better blood lines for classic distances.  If the Preakness were a month from now it could be a tough call.  Like Bob Black Jack, the Pamplemousse obvioulsy likes the track, and if given an easly lead could be gone in the Santa Anita Derby.  Bob Black Jack has gone back to winning sprints (7 Furlong GR.I Malibu) as did Cherokee Run (BC Sprint).  I'm still betting that the Pamplemousse will go similar to Recapturetheglory (third at each call faiding to fifth in the stretch) the first Saturday in May. It will not be his heart, lack of competition, or speed that will be his undoing in the end...just the LONG LONG stretch at Churchill.  Like many he is a very nice horse and will take his people along for the ride of their lives.  Let's hope he stays healthy and gives Pioneer the test he deserves.  

Householder 01 Mar 2009 6:21 PM

Mike Relva:

Is Draynay your brother?  MYOB!!! lol

The Wizard 01 Mar 2009 6:24 PM

Thanks JS. Since I am not limited by region I should have a lot of horses to pick from by May 2.;)

Barbara 01 Mar 2009 6:29 PM

Draynay. The Derby winner is NOT coming out of the FOY Stakes. Trust me on this one. The "quality" horses didn't make up an inch of ground and the one turn mile cemented this for me.

tvgeeezilost 01 Mar 2009 6:47 PM

Wiz,

    I don't think Mike and Dray are brothers, Mike defends whom he feels is right. He has agreed with me on many occasions and lord knows that Dray and i but heads as often as anyone on here. I'm still waiting for the pamp to face some real competion and get some pace pressure before i call him a freak. That race was his for the taking against a very weak field, and he was the lone speed. Also don't be fooled by the fractions SA has been know to produce very quick fractions with pro ride, so this should not come as a suprise. O and whomever made the comment on Square Eddi, he was coming off a layoff and was not geared for his best effort. Had he race in the SA Derby he'd been geared all the way up and probably would've been able to run the Pamp down. POTN is still the best in the west in my oppinion. He won a race in which all hope of winning was lost and closed like a frieght train. He is by empire maker should take to dirt and want more and more dist. He has already passed the gut check many times over and is improving more and more. When these two get togeather im looking for POTN to win.

LDP 01 Mar 2009 6:51 PM

Householder:

I'm not questioning his ability on the synthetic track...just IF he can run to that form on dirt.

Chances are he will enter the gate at Churchill with no races on the real stuff. That would certainly make me reluctant to bet him.

I could be wrong, but got a feeling the Derby winner will not be from the "Left Coast" this year.

Thw Wizard 01 Mar 2009 7:13 PM

Quality Road ran huge. I will be very interested if there is any gas left in the tank after that one.

P-mousse was very impressive, and I too thought of Barbaro when I saw his action.

I still like Old Fashioned and I did not see anything that makes me want to switch yet. Although, I will be watching alot more closely than I did before the Sham and the FOY.

Michenka 01 Mar 2009 7:19 PM

I was impressed by PM in the San Rafeal, although I was rooting for Square Eddie.  I posted on the other blog that the PM reminded me of SkipAway (without the huge power) at that time.  The gray makes it easy, but he moves and easily covers ground in a similar fashion.  The PM has matured since the Rafeal.  Definitely more umph (although we'll see how close to SkipAway he gets).  I like this horse alot and if he continues to move forward could really be something.  I wish they would get him on dirt ASAP.  I though TTP did a credible job for a young horse shipping cross country on a strange surface.  Mr. HS either drifted out in the turn or bore out due to the whip.  After being pulled back over to the rail and sent on, he had a good close.  Without coming off the rail like he did, it would have been a much closer race for second.  I suspect he will have some good races later in the year.

Kat 01 Mar 2009 7:44 PM

LOL,  I second that The Wizard! He does seem to defend Draynay more than he should.

draynot: you're right about Beethoven's FOY race. He has way more positional speed than what was shown,check out his Churchill Downs races from last year.I don't know what they were trying to do with him yesterday,but I agree he was too far back.With his closing sustained kick,he's better served being a lil bit closer to the pace...Take him to NY Mr.Ward!!!

Slew.em.All 01 Mar 2009 7:44 PM

Slew: Check Mr. Fantasy's maiden race again. He wasn't lone speed.

jshandler 01 Mar 2009 8:04 PM

I love the Pamplemousse. I went to see him up close yesterday and was not disappointed. This horse can run.

csanchez 01 Mar 2009 8:26 PM

Tvgeeezilost... LOL... that handle is hilarious.  How true ! I have not said the Derby winner is coming out of the FOY.  However, you cannot ignore the performance by Quality Road.  We will find out just how talented he is in the Florida Derby. I will take hime over slow moving Dunkirk any day.  But yes, the rest of the field is a toss for the Derby.

Draynay 01 Mar 2009 8:26 PM

and who says Chocolate Candy isn't the better of the 2 Candy Ride horses????

MRO 01 Mar 2009 8:43 PM

The Derby winner is not coming from FOY, Calif or Dubai ~ Larry Jones has him.

Skyfire 01 Mar 2009 8:44 PM

TO THE WIZARD:

My advice fire your comedy writer. You aren't funny by the slightest!

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 8:59 PM

TO LDP:

Thanks!

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 8:59 PM

PAMPLEMOUSSE(THAT IS SOME LONG NAME) IS THE REAL DEAL, HE HAS THAT LONG STRIDE,ROCK HARD TEN STYLE...I LIKE CORRALITO'S WAY IN THE EAST IF HE RUNS AGAIN BUT LOOKS LIKE NICK ZITO IS TAKING HIS TIME WITH HIM...WILL SEE

DANYLSON 01 Mar 2009 9:06 PM

Not trying to be funny, Relva.

But when swear by Beyers when you like a horse, and reject them when you don't...that's hypocritical. If you think that's OK..that's your problem.

The Wizard 01 Mar 2009 9:41 PM

Dray,

    If you think about it Dunkirk is not all that slow. He has had to overcome trouble in his first two starts, and had every exuse to lose his last but didn't. From what i heard he got hung very wide on both turns in his allowence race, about 7 wide on the first turn and prob about 5 at least on the last, correct that if i'm off. Now each lane a horse is pushed out equals about one length, meaning that Dunkirk was giving about 7 lengths on the first turn to the leader and around 5 at least on the second turn. Now one length equals around a fifth of a second and Dunkirk gave up around 12, that equals about 2 and 2/5 seconds. This means had Dunkirk been along the inner rail with a perfect trip that time could be around 1.47 or 1.48. Both are very respectable times. Also note that Dunkirk most likely with a clean trip would've won by almost 17 lengths. That does not by any means sound slow to me.

LDP 01 Mar 2009 10:15 PM

Wiz,

    Where did Mike ever swear by any speed figs??? A person can use them either way because of the fact there are so many other variables in racing. You can use them to build a horse's rep or down it depending on the other variables in a race. Mike has never sworn or rejected, or been a hypocrite, believe me he and i use to get into some pretty heated disscusions, and though i didn't agree with him he was never a hypocrite. You can't tell me you never have downed one horse for something then built another for the same reason, we all have. You also have many other prime example on this blog whom are hypocrites, not naming anyone, that you could turn your comments to. If theres anything i've learned by arguing with mike in the past is that he knows what he's talking about and his oppinion, even though you may not like it, should be respected.

LDP 01 Mar 2009 10:25 PM

THE WIZARD:

When do i swear by beyers? You have me confused w/someone else. Get your facts straight!

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 10:37 PM

Haven't seen a whole lotta horses winning on the lead around two turns on the pro ride....Looks like The Santa Anita Derby will be very strong indeed this year! At least Julio wont have to worry about kickback at Churchill cuz he'll be on the engine...and Solis, he deserves one---he blew the pace with Snow Chief when he moved him too soon into a wicked 3/4's-- now he get's his best chance since Captain Bodgit--maybe his last real chance...Baffert and Julio Freakin Cannani! It's likely Julio has The Derby Favorite....

Matthew W 01 Mar 2009 11:03 PM

I was out at Lane's End the other day and thought you guys might like to know that Secret Status has a full sibling to Dunkirk at her side. Bay, confirmation looks good so far, though you can't tell much with the babies for awhile, I'm not sure if it's a colt or a filly, but will try and find out next time I'm out there

tiznowfan09 01 Mar 2009 11:15 PM

TO LDP:

Thank you! It's true,I don't swear by beyers. Amusing isn't it when some can't even have their facts straight when they go on the attack. I'm like you it seems,I don't take a backseat to anyone,period!

Mike Relva 01 Mar 2009 11:30 PM

Dutch:

Was your reference to Came Home supposed to be a negative? Came Home may not have run well in the Derby, but he was a heck of a horse. He won the grade 1 Hopeful at 2, then at 3 won the San Vicente, San Rafael, Santa Anita Derby, Affirmed, Swaps, and Pacific Classic at 10 furlongs vs. older horses. If I were a trainer or owner, I would love to have the next Came Home.

GunBow 02 Mar 2009 2:04 AM

I don't know...  I watched the replay of The Pamp a few times, and I thought he ran effortlessly.  His head hardly ever bobbed.  His stride was huge and graceful(from the side view).  I was seriously impressed after watching the race.

DEANNA 02 Mar 2009 2:18 AM

The horses coming out of the California preps may not have fared particularly well in recent runnings of the Kentucky Derby, but they have provwn to be  quality horses.  In 2004, the top 3 finishers in the Santa Anita Derby were Castledale, Rock Hard Ten, and Imperialism.  RHT went on to run 2nd in the Preakness after being denied a position in the Derby, before winning multiple grade 1 races.  Castledale turned out to be a disappointment on the dirt, but did win the grade 1 Shoemaker Mile on turf.  Imperialism would run 3rd in the Derby behind Smarty and Lion Heart (a horse that had run 2nd in the San Rafael). Of course, Giacomo came out of Cali and won the Derby just 4 years ago. In 2006, Santa Anita Derby winner Brother Derek ran 4th in Kentucky, but was easily the 2nd best horse in the race behind Barbaro after being forced 8-10 wide on the far turn. Tiago ran 7th in the 2007 Derby, but that one race shouldnt define

his career. He bounced back later that year and ran 3rd in the Belmont, then won the Swaps and the grade 1 Goodwood vs. elders before going on to have a solid 4 year old season (winning the Oaklawn Cap, 3rd in the BC Classic). Last year, Colonel John bounced back from Churchill disappointment to win the Travers on real dirt.  Runner-up to Colonel John in the SA Derby, Bob Black Jack, has subsequently won a grade 1 race.  Chances are fairly good that Pioneer, Candy, and Pampy will prove themselves to be quality horses as well, even if they dont perform well at Churchill.  Of course, this blog is focused on the Derby, and I think its quite reasonable to be skeptical of the Cali horses this year(as last year) given the uncertainty over their dirt form.

GunBow 02 Mar 2009 2:34 AM

Look, I never said you did.

Your buddy Draynay is who I was referring to (see 3/1 4:02 PM entry), and if you didn't put your 2 cents in in his defense yesterday, I wouldn't be having any contact with you at all. This discussion is getting out of hand.

Have a nice day!

The Wizard 02 Mar 2009 4:08 AM

Hmm, so I was way off, oh well.  Hope they all came out of their races ok.

Cheers,

Heather

HLLIKINS 02 Mar 2009 6:38 AM

In my eyes The Pamplemousse and Beethoven had the most impressive runs of the weekend. For Beethoven to close as he did on a speed bias race...last after the turn to the main stretch and then moving to third. He has yet to peak.

aspradling 02 Mar 2009 8:48 AM

Midshipman out of derby due to an injury.   You've got to say one thing about Unbridled Song as a sire,  he certainly produces unsoundness like no other stallion before. Yes, I'm aware that horses and 3 year olds get hurt each year before the derby,  but Unbridled Song has to be the top producer of lameness, very alarming.  Now everyone can sit back and wait for Dunkirk to join the list of the injured.

Whatever 02 Mar 2009 9:41 AM

I agree with you, aspradling. I was rooting for Beethoven, mostly because I like Sky Mesa, but had kind of written him out halfway through that race. Seeing how much he moved up was impressive. And what can you say about the Pamplemousse? He looked like he was just having a good workout and having fun.

Karen in Indiana 02 Mar 2009 9:53 AM

Hey, GunBow. Nothing against Came Home, who I realize was a very good horse. He was a nice CA horse who couldn't get it done in the Derby, while Sunday Silence was an excellent CA horse who won the Derby. I'm just curious to see where The Pamplemousse fits.

Dutch 02 Mar 2009 10:18 AM

So you take a horse who wants the front and try to get him to rate in a race.Are you surprized he bled? The only thing that I've always wondered is do they bleed because they choke or do they bleed and then choke? IMO a confirmed front end runner will choke when you try to throttle them down and they will then bleed. Some racehorses will not or can nor run that way. Anybody else got a theory on why Notonthesamepage ran so bad?

Wanda 02 Mar 2009 10:37 AM

Wanda, I said in the blog previous to this one I thought they were fighting with NOTSP to try and rate him, so, to me, he bled after the stress caused him to choke...War Emblem was the kind of horse that if you frustrated or ticked him off you could kiss the race good-bye...that's why i like QC, he is a good listener and willing to play the game with you.

here's an intersting article on why they bleed:

www.thinkythings.org/horseracing/lasixinfo.html

da3hoss 02 Mar 2009 12:03 PM

Thanks da3hoss I'll check that site out.

Years ago we had a "fly and die" sprinter by Tilt Up. We had sent him up to the city to run and they had all kinds of equipment on him and he still blew the turn and choked. We ran him on the B tracks all that summer with a D-Bit and told the rider not to touch his head. He'd run over top of you to get in the trailer and would fall asleep in the paddock,break like a rocket and wire them every time. He won 7 races at 7 different tracks that year. I think you just got to leave them alone and let them run the way they want to. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to get them to rate but a guy should be doing that in the morning not on race day.

Wanda 02 Mar 2009 12:32 PM

Wanda... people say they want to do what is right for the horse but many just want to make it to the Derby any way they can.  Notonthesamepage is a front running horse and they tried to rate him and make him a Derby horse.  HE IS NOT and there is nothing wrong with being a great sprinter or miler.  They should stop trying to make the horse into something he is not and be happy with a world class sprinter.  Do the horse and everyone a favor...let him run !!!

Draynay 02 Mar 2009 12:36 PM

Wiz,

    Chill, Mike and me aren't getting defensive, that would be you. Also a note, this is a blog, which means if Mike wants to defend someone's oppinion he can. Also in your last post you never said you reffering to Dray, the only name in there was mikes. Heres what you said word for word:

"Not being funny Relva.

But when swear by beyer when you like a horse, then reject them when you don't... that's hypocritical. If you think that's OK..that's your problem."

    Not once in that post did you reference to Dray. Also your 3/1 post at 4:02PM, i didn't count but had to be at least 20 posts before the one above. You can't expect someone to remember every little detail, especially when you leave them out in another post hours later, because in the post above it sounds like you are acussing mike, not Dray, and thats your own fault for not mentioning Drays name in the post.

Dani Pugh 02 Mar 2009 12:38 PM

Why are people comparing THE PAMPLEMOUSSE to BOB BLACK JACK? They're to completely different types of horses. BBJ is a pure sprinter as oppossed to the Mousse. The only reason the Mousse is on the lead the whole time is b/c there was no speed in any of the races he was in, other than Brother Keith in the San Rafael until he blew the turn. This horse has rated in his sprint races and he started winning once he went two turns. His fractions are fast b/c his stride is so massive that he can click off quick fractions but visually he looks well within himself.  

The Rock 02 Mar 2009 1:12 PM

Yes Draynay I agree in this case that they should not have taken him out of his game. The whole dynamics of the race changed when the rider tried to take a hold. Saying that IF the horse had been aloud to run his race, he may have wired them. We will never know now will we? I figured that the race would set up with fast fractions on the front end and fast closing fractions. That's the race I wanted to see and didn't. Oh well there's always another one to watch right?

Wanda 02 Mar 2009 1:18 PM

LDP... (yawn) thanks for that explanation as to why Dunkirk is not slow.  His final time no matter how you slice it was average and he has not beat 1 Graded Stakes winner.  Let him beat somebody before talking about this horse.  Taqarub was all that too until he met real horses. Until he beats some Graded Stakes winners or runs great times I am not real excited about a one race winner.

Draynay 02 Mar 2009 2:08 PM

TO DRAYNAY

I agree regarding what you are saying about Dunkirk,but I have a feeling he might be something special.

Mike Relva 02 Mar 2009 2:49 PM

HI DANI:

Glad you're feeing much better. Thanks!

Mike Relva 02 Mar 2009 2:52 PM

Dunkirk would have won by 17 with a good trip? Interesting extrapolation of the one length per path on the turn theory.

Steve, what were the Ragozin and Thoro-graph figures for Dunkirk race? Brown uses the loss of ground data....

Whatever, I think Unbridled's Song recognized his frail if brilliant sons needed reinforcement...so he has us surrounded this year.

Barbara 02 Mar 2009 3:18 PM

The Rock...my comparisons of Pamp to Bob Black Jack are examples of 2 horses, out running their pedigrees.  No one thought Bob Black Jack would cause trouble at 1 1/8 but he came real close to stealing the SA Derby from Col John. He later set a rather easy pace in the Kentucky Derby but wabbled home 16th. Cherokee Run influences...most recently War Pass and Recapturetheglory.  I would argue they both had high cruizing speed but the last 1/8 at a 1 1/4 event was deadly.  The Pamp's dad was third in the Santa Anita Derby to Buddy Gil.  I have not watched that race but I would be willing to bet that he backed up in the stretch.  Perhaps the Pamp gets something from his mother but I don't see it.

Householder 02 Mar 2009 3:27 PM

I just wanted to say to Draynot, Yes, Take the Points slowed in his last furlong but I am not surprised he got a little tired, he was the only one trying to keep up with the Mousse and give him a run.  Give him a break he was on a plane for 8 hours on Thurs, they took off and landed3 or 4 times picking up horses in Louisville and New Orleans then had to get fuel in El Paso.  He had one day to recover and gallop over a new surface.  Tell me of any other 3 yr olds that have run on 5 different tracks and been either 1 or 2 in 4 out of the 5.  Gomez wrapped up on him when he realized they were not going to catch the winner.  I think he is staying out there for the SA Derby, I think you will see a better run out of him after 4 weeks training on the Pro-Ride.

phoenixky1 02 Mar 2009 3:29 PM

Interesting as the races are run the more shakeouts. Should be a excellent Derby.Lot of talented colts and a few filly's.

Mikie R you need to chillout your anger when you don't agree with someone is so obvious now its wizard your attacking, get a life and relax he's giving his opinion which he has a right to.Hey where's your Dream Horse Nicanor {the quitter]-not in the same class as this bunch of 3 year olds.

2 time valley player of the year 02 Mar 2009 4:06 PM

Ha ha poor Rick Dutrow will be sent packing this year with the new drugs tests! Now people will see him as he really is; a guy who got lucky breaks and who depends on a syringe to win. I love American racing, please don't take this in the wrong way, but I'm glad that they are phasing out drugs. Its a joke that they are still allowed.

Majella from Ireland 02 Mar 2009 4:24 PM

love the pamplemousse not as impressed as maybe i should be by any in the FOY and am super impressed by Affirmatif.

Dan 02 Mar 2009 4:36 PM

There was no uncontested pace....the 'supposed' super speed demon Notonthesamepage, was NOTINTHESAMERACE....he was 6th the entire route until he faded to 7th....where was his blazing speed ?

The other wire to wire specialist - Taqarub was similarly never got into it...

The only speed was This Ones for Phil, and although he was on the lead for a while, he faded in the turn to the stretch...

Quality Road though has to be considered to be better than thought, seemingly didn't beat any decent horse...as even Capt Candyman Can was Capt Candyman Can't

Theregoesjojo was the only horse that lived up to his closing form, though he tried to catch up, though Kenny McPeek said the week before the race that he wouldn't be pushed an he would be satisfied with a 2nd, 3rd or 4th...I guess he was....

Breakwater Edison must have broken down...he was eased and never finished the race..

Beethoven was a similar disappointment...though he was closing...he seemed inept against these foes...

I was very disappointed that the speedy 4 never materialized, and therefore handicapping was as if the PP's didn't mean much.  Their past performances did not pan out to what occurred on Saturday.

Going forward I think Dunkirk has more quality.

NYScooter 02 Mar 2009 5:27 PM

TO: 2TIME Valley Player OF THE YR

Call Michael Matz,I'm sure he's got your answer,like really quick! lol

Mike Relva 02 Mar 2009 6:49 PM

Maybe  The  Captain will  run  in  the  Swale.

SlewStable 02 Mar 2009 7:58 PM

Barbara,

    Another trainer told me that when she and i were arguing over the Curlin/RR belmont a couple years ago. I try to remember everything i can so i have as many angles and tools as i can get to handicap a race all the better. I've also read in many books, like some of the ones about ruffian, Man o War, or Native Dancer that 1 lenght equals 1/5 of a second and thats how i got that his time would've been at least 2 seconds better with a better trip.

Dray,

    You can think what you want, but those figures are true and make good scence if you think about it. Dunkirk with a clean trip would've run almost if not just as fast as the Pamp did. Speaking of which, i say the same for the Pamp, let him beat a field of stakes quality horses ready to fire their best shots at him, and win, then get excited about him.

Mike,

    Thank you for you defending me on Jasons other blog. Yes i'm feeling much better, but we'll see how long that will last now that we just got hit with a foot of snow. On the bright side, i can breath w/o hacking up a lung and can talk above a whisper again. I was telling everyone today that instead of having a white Christmas we'll have a white St. Patricks Day.

LDP 02 Mar 2009 8:47 PM

Hey Dutch, the Came Home Derby was the soft pace/lone lead War Emblem run---I saw Came Home up close--he was a pro's pro! Smallish but well put together! Ran head low. Won Pacific Classic at three--as did Best Pal/as DID NOT Tiznow....Pac Classic in it's 20 years has been right at the top of NA races in terms of quality....as far as a West Coaster winning a Derby---I'd say it would be akin to a Euro coming over the pond to win it--THAT'S how far removed So Cal has become! I think Pioneerof Nile is a GOOD horse--real good---however, how can I bet on him when he's NEVER had kickback? But The Mousse...he'll HAVE no kickback, now will he! Certainly bred for the dirt....Wins on front end on pro ride---an oddity of sorts as they win far less on the lead at two turns out there...methinks Cali has the quality this season--which makes the bettin' part that much of a crap shoot--But I can't wait to see if they can catch The Mousse---and Julio Canani!

Matthew W 02 Mar 2009 8:59 PM

Guys, Im all for good debate but this back and forth between the same people is getting old. Let's move on.

jshandler 02 Mar 2009 9:08 PM

The only horses I care to talk about right now are running in the Gotham. Every time I talk or think about Dunkirk I get sick to my stomach. The same feeling I got last year when everyone told me how good Colonel John was last year.  I would rather focus on the whipping Imperial Council is going to lay down on Jason's Mr. Fantasy. Maybe then he will believe New York breds are a waste of time.  I just hope Mr. Fantasy beats Haynesfield so he can show up to his own blog after Saturday.

Draynay 02 Mar 2009 9:18 PM

HI DRAYNAY:

What are your thoughts on Haynesfields chances for the weekend?

Mike Relva 02 Mar 2009 10:20 PM

all theory is gray. looking at The Pamplemousse from whatever angle tells me he is special, racing, working, schooling. the only thing of concern to me was his rather short galopping out. anything else a freak, who maybe freaks out even better on dirt.

dailyimpact 03 Mar 2009 1:50 AM

To nixky1, Any relation to Ray?

I'm fully aware of Take The Points trravels and lack of preperation over the track. I only meant to point out that he slowed down too much and would have to improve on that to be taken seriously for a Derby run. I too expect a better race from him if he stays in California. His next race is going to be make or break as far as making the field in KY. since he has so little graded earnings. He's going to be up against it if he goes to the SA Derby against "The Mousse, Pioneer Of The Mile, and Chocolate Candy. If they continue to tote him all over the country I think they will burn him out and he won't even make it to the Derby.

draynot 03 Mar 2009 7:54 AM

The 113 beyer that Quality Road earned in his FOY is huge. That being said it was only a mile race but if he can run back anywhere near that in the Fla. Derby or Wood he goes to KY the favorite. His next out will be interesting indeed.

I'm looking forward to the Gotham as it will weed out some more of the pretenders. I know that Jason and a number of others are very high on Mr. Fantasy. I have one question for you Jason about Mr. Fantasy and I ask it respectfully.

What makes this horse different in your eyes than some of the other horses who have looked almost brilliant in NY but faltered when they went elsewhere or moved up in class?

For nay nay, I'm not interested in your comment on this so don't bother. I've seen enough of your Mr. Fantasy bashing and really could care less about your opinion on anything.

the_wiz 03 Mar 2009 8:28 AM

Wiz: I'm looking forward to the Gotham too. To answer your question, Mr. Fantasy does have a lot to prove. Being a New York-bred does not concern me though. I know many have faltered in the past, but I dont get too caught up in where a horse was bred. Talent is talent. Plus, he is very well bred. That being said, you're right: If he falters in the Gotham, he will be just be another impresssive allowance winner who couldnt handle stakes company. We seen dozens every Triple Crown season. More than his final times, Beyers or open-length victories, the reason I like Mr. Fantasy the most is the way he moves. He looks so effortless when he runs and seems to have great speed. We shall see, but I expect a big effort on Saturday.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 10:52 AM

I like what you said Jason, about not getting caught up in where a horse is bred. By the way, wasn't Funny Cide, the Guttsy Gelding from NY??? I might be wrong, it was one of my first Derbies, so i might be. Whose to say Mr. Fantasy can't do it, his breeding from what i know is good and like you say Jason he runs so effortlessly. I think if Haynesfield rates off of him in the Gotham and saves his energy, it will be those two coming down at the wire, and i hope Mr.F wins. Sorry Mike:)

LDP 03 Mar 2009 11:07 AM

Privman in DRF noted how winded The Pamplemousse was in the winner's circle.  But we know he can get 1 1/8 miles.  Baffert will no doubt give him company up front next out.

I think Mr. Fantasy is the real deal.  Looking forward to Gotham...

Barbara 03 Mar 2009 11:08 AM

Yes LDP, Funny Cide was a NY bred.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 11:12 AM

Jason, Thought your analysis of the FOY was spot on. Quality Road's performance was superb and the race of Theregoesjojo was, in my opinion, almost as impressive as the winner. Despite the meet long speed bias of the track and a relatively slow break he closed significant ground even after Desormeaux somehow decided to swing him six wide on the turn rather than take the rail trip. I agree that he wasn't going to get to the winner but would have been much closer. Considering McPeek did not have him tightened for this effort his race was remarkable over that surface. Look forward to his next start.

Are you going to post anything on the Gotham before the weekend?

mg 03 Mar 2009 11:17 AM

phoenixky1: Congrats you raised a very nice horse, you should be very proud of that.

Jason thanks for explaining about Mr.Fantasy, I sort of wondered why you liked him so much. Everyone goes on about times which in itself isn't a bad way to handicap but you still got to get down to the rail and really watch them. I like how you mention how he moves. That's the only thing I don't like to hear about the Pamp. Steve Haskin says his legs are every which way but he still covers ground. I don't know if that kind of horse can stand up to running hard for any length of time without going tilt.

Wanda 03 Mar 2009 11:17 AM

I did the math on the fractions, and the Pamp, was slowing down the whole way. His fractions were, 23 falt, 23.2/5, 23.4/5, 24.4/5, and 12.4/5. If you double his last time it would be 25.3/5, i think. Now if anyone want to check my math feel free to do so, since i am not even close to being a math expert.

LDP 03 Mar 2009 11:19 AM

mg: Im defintaly going to post something on the Gotham, probably Thursday. And don't forget, I have the live blog on saturday at noon where we can discuss the race at length.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 11:21 AM

draynay,

Your last post says alot about you. Getting physically ill when you talk about a horse or you think about a horse other than your "chosen ones" is kinda scary. Last year the thought of Col. John made you sick and this year it's Dunkirk. I think you need help.

That being said I have two things to say to you,

Col John, Col John, Col John and Dunkirk, Dunkirk, Dunkirk. Take some tums and chill out a bit.

gw_bushwacker 03 Mar 2009 11:30 AM

Thanks Jason,

    As i said it was like my second Derby, I think, and though i liked horse racing, i didn't really know any sites or anything about it too much. Thanks again.

LDP 03 Mar 2009 11:38 AM

I also just did a little comparison of RB lewis stakes and POTN times vrs Pamps, and got 23.1/5 for the first quarter, 23.4/5, 25 flat, then 23.3/5, and 6 flat. With the final time being 1.41.9 if you add 6 more seconds you get 1.47.9. If you want to double 6 and add 12 flat to the mile time you'll only get .01 lower. What caught my eye is how close both times are. Also when you consider how bad a trip POTN got he compared to the front running trip Pamp got it looks to me like POTN may be better. Then again times don't mean everything, but along with his breeding, his ability to close like a frieght train, and the amount of guts and toughness he's shown already, it tells me he still may be the better of the two.

LDP 03 Mar 2009 11:47 AM

LDP: Adam has a couple of pics of him on his blog and he is under wraps with the stick down. Ears twitching etc. They did say he was blowing hard in the winners circle. Hard to tell if he's just green or if that's as good as it gets. Ya know what I mean?

Wanda 03 Mar 2009 11:57 AM

LDP your math is fine but what is your point.  Why should a horse go faster when he is controlling the lead.  If you watched the race you could see he posted a 1:10 with the rider in hand while the others BEHIND him were asking their horses and getting nothing.  Mike Relva I like that Haynesfield improved in the Whirlaway... he did not look that good in the Count Fleet running a 1:40 mile. Both Haynesfield and Mr. Fantasy are Aqueduct only horses and that concerns me.  Imperial Council has won at Belmont and Gulfstream.  At Gulfstream he chased down blazing lone front speed and pulled away at the end.  I believe he is the real deal and will prove that by beating both Haynesfield and Mr. Fantasy.  One Funny Cide in a 100 years is not going to convince me a New York bred is a good idea in the Derby.

Draynay 03 Mar 2009 12:19 PM

In response to a comment waaaay up there, I was a bit riled up and ticked but I've calmed down. I probably reacted too harshly when Jason remarked on the California fields but I still support them up until and beyond the Derby.

Justine 03 Mar 2009 12:44 PM

Draynay, Imperial Council worked very moderate fractions yesterday at Palm Meadows and there still may be a question of his start in the Gotham. As you are aware I like this boy a lot, but Shug certainly has not cranked him up for that race, much as McPeek did with Thergoesjojo in the Fountain of Youth. Both of those boys have a profound habit of taking their own time in the progression, and the Wood may be more of an indicator of whether McGaughey is headed for Louisville. I'm not saying he can't win on Saturday but It's not going to be the primary concern of the connections.

mg 03 Mar 2009 12:50 PM

I have to believe that the P-Moose's race was the best this weekend! I would ignore the synthetic racetrack and look at the performance. Last year, Colonel John ran well in the Derby making up thirteen lengths down the back stretch of the KY Derby. He won the Travers later on last year. I think the California Horses are still the best and P Moose and Pioneer will be a tough pair for Chocolate Candy to beat. Up to this weekend, most of the 3 year olds have been healthy. Sorry to hear about Midshipmen. I just hope all the remaining contenders can stay healthy throughout the year. I see a deep and tough 3 year old group so far. I would not suggest that taking your top three year old to Dubai to get him geared up for the Ky Derby!

RobfromBMore 03 Mar 2009 12:50 PM

Dailyreport,

I heard in a different blog regarding The Pamplemousse's gallop outs in the Sham & San Rafael and that both were very similar. Canani has mentioned how intelligent this horse is in the morning. Maybe the moment he's pulled up he knows he doesn't have to do anything else?

The Rock 03 Mar 2009 1:14 PM

LDP: POTN was in a full-out drive while The Pamps' was well in hand.Big differance there..

Draynay:  Don't forget about I Want Revenge in the Gotham.He'll arrive @ Aqueduct later this week ready to rumble.The pace should be swift,setting it up for the closers.

Slew.em.All 03 Mar 2009 2:15 PM

I long ago learned to take Inner Track form with a large grain of salt. Until the animal has shown it can run on a non-winterized track, ala Smarty, I can't take it seriously. Have seen too many square-dot specialists flounder when they get on a main track. Anywhere.

Ann in Lexington 03 Mar 2009 2:16 PM

Wanda,

    I get what you mean. I'm wondering if the reason he was in hand was because after running those fractions he finally started to tire a bit. Also, sometimes jocks are good enough not to press a horse when they know it's tired or already giving it their all. A horse can look effortless, but that doesn't always mean it was. The ears thing, maybe he was listening for his rider, waiting for him to tell him when it's time to stop. My jumper flicks his ears back and forth all the time when he's listening for my cues.

Dray,

    When i was looking at his fractions, his first three quarter don't worry me, he was slowing down but not badly. I'm more concerned about his last three furlongs, and what the last quarter might have been had he kept going. His last three furlong were done in 37.3/5, if the race had been a furlong longer his last quarter would've gone in 25.3/5, and the final half mile would be 50.3/5. I know he was in hand, but i don't think against closers like SB and POTN that he'll hold. POTN was getting faster and faster as he ran, and Pam slowed drasticly. The fact he slowed down that much tells me he doesn't want more dist if he has to run that fast on the front.

Mike,

    You always have a good oppinion what do you think?

LDP 03 Mar 2009 2:59 PM

Anyone have any idea where Theregoesjojo will be running next??

Neddy 03 Mar 2009 3:05 PM

Neddy: It will be the Florida Derby or Blue Grass for Theregoesjojo. McPeek will decide in the next week or so.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 3:34 PM

Slew,

    POTN also had one nightmarish trip. Had he had a better one and just able to curise on by i have no doubt he would've done it. The trainer even said before he didn't have to win, that just show the determination of the horse. Pamp had a relitively easy trip, with not pressure and no trouble at all. After a fast pace he probably started to tire, as someone said he was blowing hard in the winners circle. The jockey thought it best to take up on him since the race was won anyhow. This probably made it look better to most ppl. My point is the Pamp can't afford to slow down that much while POTN will have an extra 1/16 to real him in if he expects to win. Next time i'd rate him so he doesn't burn out just as POTN is full blown.

LDP 03 Mar 2009 4:03 PM

Just went to our industry blog site (Horse Racing Alberta) and Bear's Rocket is headed to Tampa Bay. Bear's Prospector hit his head on the gate his last start and bled thru the nose. Reade Baker says he's fine now. I wondered why he ran so bad.

Wanda 03 Mar 2009 4:06 PM

LDP... I wouldn't stress about Pamp or POTN the best California horse may very well be Stardom Bound she continues to win Graded Stakes with ease and few are taking her serious. Soon people will have to look at her. The further the distance the more dominant she looks.  Pamp will not be lone speed in the Santa Anita Derby and that can only help fast closing Stardom Bound.

Draynay 03 Mar 2009 4:13 PM

Yes, there were some nice performances in FL and CA, personally I like the Soutwest and the race in Fairgounds for my two preps I find most meaningful, both won by Jones horses but NONE has solidified my choice for the KY Derby. It is still too early for this year. We are not talking about a monster two yr old dusting off his rivals in his first competition of the year to prove they are special, they all have a lot to prove yet. The big preps are just a few weeks away and the picture will be less cloudy soon. (of course we still have polytrack issues that will never clear up----but a good/great horse can "usually" run on anything. Before the posts come--- would Curlin have won anyway on a dirt surface?--the first two were pretty nice horses period and shipped in from a long way away--not easy. Damascus probably would have won the Derby on a fast track and on and on--but as a starting point Dr Fager won the United Nations and didn't seem to like the turf, but beat the best turf horse in the country that day---because he was a better horse. Secretariat was probably better on the turf than dirt but that is just my and Bobby Frankel's opinion. Seeing that Affirmed "get" seemed to do better on turf he probably would have been a champion on that surface as well. A truly good/great horses seem to win on any surface.

For the geniuses that already know who will win the Derby when proven right I will give you your due then, now it is all talk. Bet early and maybe get a great price by putting your money where.....

I'll wait and watch more.

marc w 03 Mar 2009 4:34 PM

Awlful quiet over there in the Dutrow camp.  No body to blame now.  Maybe next time dutrow  will learn to be as good as his father in respects to being a good horseman.  All horseman are in the same boat and badmouthing one another doesn't help.

marirose 03 Mar 2009 6:23 PM

So much for Goldophin and taking their horses to Dubai. I bet Desert Party doesn't make it to the Derby.Hey Sheik leave your horses in America where the real competition is not half way around the world.Vineyard needs Frankel, Baffert did a great job with Midshipman.No theory in Dubai as a home post.!

2 time valley player of the year 03 Mar 2009 6:27 PM

Last weekend's Derby preps should really shake up everybodies top ten or derby dozen list.  I got a sense of wake-up, shake-up and smell the roses, watching Quality Road humble that stellar FOY field on Saturday.  This horse is no "one race wonder."  His sire and grand sire (Elusive Quality and Gone West) are already Derby winning influences (Smarty Jones) and his dam line is absolutely top class.  Speed, rateability and stamina are non-issues for this colt.  The gauntlet has been thrown down but we are still waiting on the "Drama" to unfold.

I share Draynay's view regarding horses like Notonthesamepage.  It is a shame that he wasn't allowed to run his natural style, not that it would affect the winner but we know that he didn't show up at all.  Theregoesjojo and Beethoven also should break into the group of elite contenders.  The former is a genuine closer and the latter is developing his new style.

Now to California.  What a charismatic horse The Pampelmousse is turning out to be.  I really like how this horse gallops his field into submission and oblivion.  He must be a freak because his pedigree suggests serious stamina limitations.  Never mind the speed analysis and the synthetic track right now, this is California's big Derby threat in my view and the Breeder's Cup bekons him later this year.  I can't see Chocholate Candy or POTN catching this fellow in the Santa Anita Derby.  My only lingering concern about him is that his pedigree could make him "stop" as if shot, if his stamina doesn't carry him the Derby distance but until he shows us otherwise he should make the upper echelons of the elite, like Quality Road.

Ranagulzion 03 Mar 2009 6:49 PM

Ranagulzion: Slow down, man. Stellar field? Let's not go that far. There were a few nice horses in there, but it was by no means stellar. You might see 3 from there make the Derby. Maybe.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 7:08 PM

Quality Road was the most impressive FTO winner in the FOY field with his Aqu win. Once Jerkens Jr put the serious works into him after his GP intro, he was set. Couldn't believe the Captain at that price. He's a front bandaged special whose FOY was his first step on the way off, way off the Derby trail.

jerry 03 Mar 2009 7:20 PM

It looks like the Pamplemousse is blessed with the "Damascus" line which brings speed influences ala WAR PASS and Recapturetheglory.  I'm no expert (quite the opposite) but I think a great story would be for JASON to interview ALEX SOLIS-II who was the blood stock agent and is part owner of the PAMP so his dad (Solis Sr.) now works for him.  One good question would be are we missing something in our analysis of his pedigree and is there no limitation to the distance this horse will run?  The final time for the Sham was about 2 seconds faster than Buddy Gil's SA Derby and the Pamp's dad was six in back of Gil.  (I know it is apples/dirt to oranges/synthetics but it is at least interesting).  He will be facing a couple of Grade I winners (hopefully Stardom Bound goes) this time around...He will get the acid test.  

Householder 03 Mar 2009 8:05 PM

I'm taking Empire Maker and Candy Ride at 1 1/4.  A lot of the "experts" thought Pulpit/Pryo could get the distance.  What a slow and kind of sad regression this horse took 2-3 before the Derby.  Wasn't he last seen in the BC Mile or something?  2-3 PHENOMINAL races and then it was gone.  I hope the Pamp proves me wrong because he is sure fun to watch.  Regardless of win or loose he is a nice horse and why SOLIS is not already in the Hall of Fame is beyond me.  Perhaps a K Derby win would help. This guy is competing with jockeys half his age and he still looks like a mini-line backer.  I would not want to get punched by him.  

Householder 03 Mar 2009 8:12 PM

TO LDP:

How are you? I agree.

Mike Relva 03 Mar 2009 8:45 PM

TO DRAYNAY:

Thanks for answering my question yesterday. I agree w/you on Stardom Bound,I'm a fan of this amazing horse.

Mike Relva 03 Mar 2009 8:47 PM

Jason: I think that you are "dissing" the FOY field now only in hindsight.  That field approximated to a Grade one 3YO line up. Commentators everywhere were impressed with the quality of the horses so be careful not to underestimate how good the winner is.  Admittedly you were spared "egg on the face" by Notonthesamepage's failure to spark and yes you did express skepticism about his needing the hyperbaric treatment.  I grant you that Jason but some of those that flopped will be back.  Also the second and third placed finnishers are legitimate Derby closers when you consider the Gulfstream bias against closers.

Ranagulzion 03 Mar 2009 8:56 PM

Mike we are 60 days away from the Kentucky Derby and this is what I know.  Pampelmousse, POTN, and Stardom Bound will face each other and only one will have a real chance in the Derby.  Desert Party is a threat and if the track comes up wet his chances only improve.  Vineyard Haven may find a dry track next time out and be back in the hunt. Imperial Council and Mr. Fantasy will duel in the Gotham and one will have a breakout race. And in Florida Dunkirk and Quality Road will face each other to determine who is really talented.  My money is on Quality Road...113 Beyer wow !  And last but not least Rachel Alexandra freaks in her next race forcing the owners to steer her towards the Derby. If you notice that I did not mention a horse you like well... that's because he has no chance.  There is a 100% chance that the Derby winner was named above.

Draynay 03 Mar 2009 9:07 PM

Ranagulzion: I was never high on CCC or Beethoven. I said that many times. Doesn't mean they arent good horses, I just dont think they are May 2nd material.

The horse I like the best from that race is Theregoesjojo, by far. He has a lot of talent. I wont knock Quality Road. He was impressive. But I could care less about the 113 Beyer. Means nothing to me on that track. I will reserve judgement on the colt until after the Florida Derby. Aside from those two horses, you can have the rest from the FOY.

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 9:11 PM

Hey Mike,

    I'm getting kinda frustrated at some ppl who are driving me up the wall, but otherwise fine. I've explained my oppinion lord knows how many times, and when i point out good comparison or points that could make good handicapping angles, ppl go and make other exuses. It gets frustrating. I can't wait for the Gotham, you know whom i want to win, but would have no problem if yours crossed the wire first, as long as it's no by a nose. I'd rather be beaten by a mile than an nose, lol. So what new with you?

LDP 03 Mar 2009 9:18 PM

Dray,

    Me and you finally agree on something. I'd almost forgotten SB. That is one stellar filly, and if she makes it to the derby, the fact we should have a ton of speed and that long long stretch that played to Giocomo's favore, i know i murdered his name sorry, will be there for her and all the other closers. This should be a very interesting derby.

LDP 03 Mar 2009 9:26 PM

POTN has that kick--very turf like! The Mousse runs like a dirt horse all the way---slower final 1/4's but still running---right now I'd say he'd be the most likely ot the big three out West to handle dirt first time---in other words, Pamplemousse is the story out West, and he's likely the derby pace....win or lose on pro-ride, I hope they go East! I want to see him dirt/dominate!

Matthew W 03 Mar 2009 9:35 PM

Right Wanda. Plus, let's keep this in perspective. This is supposed to be fun anyway. It's only horse racing :)

jshandler 03 Mar 2009 10:12 PM

To me,the FOY was nothing but an elongated sprint race,so the first 2 finishers still have to prove that they can route 2-turns..I heard Beethoven is staying for the Fla.Derby..I respect Mr. Ward,but he's breaking that horses constitution by keeping him @ that kind of track where his "new" style of running is ineffective.I'm not saying he's the next great one,but I'm sure he'll represent himself better in NY where Mr. Ward took Monarchos for his pre-Derby preparations..Glad to see that I Want Revenge will be in the Gotham field.Apparently he didn't take to SA as well as he did Hollywood Park.I expect a BIG performance from him with plenty of speed lined-up..Stardom Bound is still my top-gun,but I get the feeling they're really not pointing her to the Ky.Derby.She and POTN are still the Class of the West,so far..Old Fashioned is the one to beat in AK,but there's a couple of up-starts waiting for him out there.Flat Out should keep improving as the distances increase.

These next rounds should also separate the pretenders from the contenders..I'm gonna' get frustated if people don't agree with me and my opinions :(  j/k, remember it's called freewill.

Slew.em.All 03 Mar 2009 11:29 PM

The Pamplemousse has all the makings of a super horse....he will be tough in the SA Derby and in Kentucky, Baltimore and NY...It is clear at this point that distance should not be an issue, between his natural speed, stride and willingness to listen to the rider the Derby distance is well within his range, as far as projecting times and such to a mile and a quarter the winner of the derby typically has the lead at the 1/8th pole, the common mis conception is that you need to be bred to go a mile and a quarter when in fact history tells us that is not true...the last 4 years final quarter mile 25:2, 25, 24:2 26:4....like they say time is only relevant if you are serving it...The Pamplemousse Forever!!!

drewclearwhenroused 03 Mar 2009 11:57 PM

I was wrong.  It looks like Kafwain's mother Swazi's Moment actually has some stamina via Hatchetman, dam sire of Stike the Gold.  Hatchetman could go 1 1/4 and I believe there is some west coast 1 1/4 track record holder Quack in there as well.  Cherokee Run could obviously route a "speedy" bit doing well in the Preakness as Kafwain could (doing well in the BC Juvinile).  Will the Pamplemousse stop?

Householder 04 Mar 2009 1:32 AM

The most impressive horse I've seen this year is Evita Argentina. Rather than hooking Stardom Bound, she went and blew by the boys like they were standing still.

I predict she will win the Oaks and Srardom Bound will blow by the boys in the Derby.

The PM is "legitimate" speed, just like Barbaro. Give him an easy lead and wave bye-bye. He won't get an easy lead in the Derby, there are always phony speed horses entered that run with their hair on fire for a mile before exploding. If PM can rate, which I believe, like Barbaro, he can, he'll be tough to beat.

But if Stardom Bound is anywhere around ar the top of the stretch, she beats them all home.

Just my opinion of course but as it stands right now, Stardom Bound is #1, Evita #2 and the Mousse #3 and I am definately a right coast guy as a rule.

Can't wait.

swirlaway13 04 Mar 2009 1:59 AM

Hey Jason it's not like we're sending the space shuttle to the launch pad right?

Wanda 04 Mar 2009 9:40 AM

TO: DRAYNAY

I've always liked Pioneer,partly cause of the trainer. You make a good point w/Quality Road. Still waiting to see VH again. As I stated I'm a fan of Stardom Bound,too. Would be the first to admit I know Haynesfield is up against it on Saturday. Thanks!

Mike Relva 04 Mar 2009 1:57 PM

TO: LDP

Hi! Please don't stress,not worth it. As you well realize some "make up their own rules as they go along"  with putting a slant,refusing to accept the facts. You write w/ alot of insight and heart. I wouldn't worry about it for you've forgotten more than many of them could ever know,lol.

Mike Relva 04 Mar 2009 2:06 PM

All of these horses have "something to prove".  That's the whole point of all these derby prep races.  And each one of us has good reasons (though often purely personal) as to why one horse is better than another.  With every race the picture shifts a little.  I am wondering and concerned about Old Fashioned.  Is he working at all?

TerriV 04 Mar 2009 5:31 PM

Thanks Mike,

    I've actually tried to stay out of things before, but it just never works. You know i've also thought about being a sports writer for horse racing before. I love english class, and writing, so that's always another option. I appriciate everything you said thank you.

LDP 04 Mar 2009 6:04 PM

Is it just me or is anyone else noticing these horses winning the 3 year old prep races at Gulfstream are throwing up these ridiculous beyer numbers.

First you had This One Is Phil who earned a 76 beyer before he comes off a 2.5 month layoff run 6 furlongs gets a 116 beyer then in the fountain of Youth goes to the lead and quits. So he is probably better off at 6 furlongs.  +40 beyer  that's ridiculous to think that this horse got that much better.

Notonthesamepage: Another one that came off the bench runs 6 furlongs  in the Spectacular Bid  and earns a 114 beyer and doesn't move a muscle in the Fountain of Youth. Another Sprinter trying to stretch out. His previous beyers  53 at keenland in the Gr 1 breeders futurity ( I forgive that effort probably didn't like the polytrack)  the race before he gets a 73 at Saratoga in the Hopeful.

Everybody Loved Capt Candyman Can last week before the Fountain Of Youth well he was in the perfect position  in the Fountain of Youth and came up empty.

So the 3 favorites for the Fountain of Youth ran off the board. Those 3 are sprinters not derby horses.

Quality Road I still have doubts about him he was getting lasix for the first time and he  was getting 4- 6 pounds from everyone else. Fast time but I want to see a repeat effort before I believe he is real. He earns a 113 beyer for the fountain of youth in his second race back off a layoff.

The most consistent horse that has run in these 3 yr prep races is Beethoven he was a tired fourth after drawing the 12 hole in the Holy Bull and He closed on a track that was favoring front runners.

Yes he was beaten by 8 lengths by Quality road but Beethoven wants more ground and his beyers show progress they are not jumping from one extreme to another like all the rest  he is consistent. 91 in the Holy Bull 97 in the Fountain of Youth. He washed out before the race. If He can get a fair track and some pace to run into he will be dangerous in the Florida Derby 3rd off a layoff and getting more ground to close into is a + & At least we know He Likes Churchill

Rocker 04 Mar 2009 9:14 PM

Hey Jason,since you have access to Mr.John T. Ward,Jr., can u do me a BIG$$$$ favor?..try and convince him to ship Beethoven to NY for the Wood Memorial instead of keeping him in Fla.,where that track is not doing him any justice.

I have him @ 75-1 in the futures since last Nov.,and I'm afraid even if Beethoven finishes a fast closing but far back 3rd/4th,he won't go to the Derby..at least in NY he'll have a chance to prove that's he's better than his last 2 races.Thus,that'll catapult him the Churchill where his 2 for 3.

I'd appreciate EVERTHING you can do to make it happen captain  :)  lol

Slew.em.All 04 Mar 2009 9:15 PM

Rocker: I said the same thing with the Gulfstream Beyers. They mean nothing.

Slew: I'm sure Ward will listen to reason :) I think he'll have a good shot to go to the Derby if he runs third or even fourth in the Fla. Derby. He should have enough earnings, especially if he gets third.

jshandler 04 Mar 2009 10:41 PM

Hey Slew here is a idea for you.  Next time pick a better horse in the futures !  Beethoven isn't a Derby winning horse.

Draynay 05 Mar 2009 12:19 AM

With Pioneer of the Nile now entered in the San Felipe March 18th this would only leave 3 weeks turn around before the Santa Anita Derby.  With as much as Baffert moans and groans about synthetics is he possibly looking at the Blue Grass a week later than the Santa Anita Derby?  Does he have more to prove against the Pamplemousse or running on dirt?  

Householder 05 Mar 2009 1:28 AM

"Winning Colors romps home to win the Oaks by 8."  Stardom Bound uses the same spring board this Saturday to the Santa Anita Derby.  Perhaps she can take this one (SA Derby) like Winning Colors as well (by some 8-9 lengths over some nice ones like Lively One). If POTN does not defect he could be joined by Stardom Bound, Chocolate Candy, and the Pamplemousse.  This may be better than the Kentucky Derby!  

Householder 05 Mar 2009 1:40 AM

Just read the news Jason. Good luck with the live chat Bro!

Wanda 05 Mar 2009 8:10 AM

I find it very interesting that even though he has bashed Dunkirk and Mr. Fantasy to a pulp that draynay includes them on a list of 10 that he claims is 100% certain to produce the Derby winner. It might even be a bit humorous if he wasn't such a jerk to those who have come out and said they like these horses chances. I would not be a bit surprised if he adds another 10 horses to the list by the time the race is run. Then he'd have all his bases covered.

gw_bushwacker 05 Mar 2009 8:43 AM

Thanks Wanda. Will you be joining me?

jshandler 05 Mar 2009 11:58 AM

Bushwacker ! Did you notice where they were on the list ?  He is my new list so you have it.  Study and learn.

1. Imperial Council

2. Desert Party

3. POTN

4. Stardom Bound

5. Quality Road

6. Vineyard Haven

7. Rachel Alexandra

8. Pampelmousse

9. General Quarters

10. Mr. Fantasy

Its easy to get to 7 or 8 horses after that you are just adding a couple to fill the list.  For the record Dunkirk and Old Fashioned have no chance at all in the Derby and any money bet on them will be a complete waste.

Draynay 05 Mar 2009 12:12 PM

Hey Dray,I jumped on Beethoven's future because his odds were too good to pass up.There's always hope.Don't count him out just yet.  As you know I'm still going with the Filly Stardom Bound as my lock "IF" she's in the Derby.

So I see that you have IC at the top of your list now,.Hilarious the way you keep flip-flopping and contradicting yourself but what else should we expect right?..didn't you call-out people who like Dunkirk,saying he was just an allowance winner. Well,so is IC..and what happened to your "sure" bet VH? slooowly dropping down your list I see..lol

Slew.em.All 05 Mar 2009 1:06 PM

My point was it's funny how you include for instance Dunkirk on a list you say is 100% certain to produce the Derby winner and continue to bash him. That way if he wins you could go back and say you had him back in March on your list that you claim one of those mentioned would win and if he loses you could say I told you so. Nice to have it both ways I guess.

gw_bushwacker 05 Mar 2009 1:21 PM

Dunkirk picked up $22,000 for his last win.  His trainer is like

0-600 in the Kentucky Derby despite entering 1/2 the field.  It's time to move some multiple graded stakes winners ahead of this horse regardless of what ones take on California is.  This horse may not be invited to the big dance and if he makes it the trainer will be 0-601.

Householder 05 Mar 2009 6:38 PM

Oh man I'd like to but I'm a working girl this weekend. We've got the Brier (curling). It's a huge deal here in the Great White North. What else do you do when it's 30 below, go throw rocks indoor on ice? I'll try and hook up with you down the road but I think you'll have your hands full on Sat lol.

Wanda 05 Mar 2009 8:57 PM

Has anyone asked Baffert what he thinks of The Pamplemousse?  He trained his dad Kafwain.  

Householder 06 Mar 2009 1:50 AM

The Derby trifeca:

Stardom Bound

PM

Beethoven/Quality Road.

Remember, you heard it here, lol.

swirlaway13 06 Mar 2009 8:26 AM

You know swirlaway13: that's not too far fetched, I can dig-it! :)

Slew.em.All 06 Mar 2009 4:41 PM

A lot of talk about future bets...anyone like my $100 to win on jojo at 80 to 1??

neddy 07 Mar 2009 3:27 PM

I'll be betting Quality Road in the 2nd Derby futures pool. Now is the chance to lock in the high odds. After the Florida Derby, and people see that he has no problem with added distance, it will be too late. This will be his last race leading up to the Derby. If anyone can get a horse to win the Derby off 4 lifetime races, Jimmy can do it. If you watch the re-play of the Fountain of Youth, you can clearly see Quality Road still reaching out throughout the stretch and the finish, and drawing away from Theregoesjojo. This is what makes Quality Road so very dangerous! He has so much natural speed to establish a position near the front but, not necessarily on the lead, and the stamina to be the one to make the important move when it counts, and draw off. Closers that make their move, like Jojo did, don't have much of a chance. McPeek was very impressed with the horse, who beat him. Jojo has only one more chance to make enough earnings to qualify to run in the Derby. He will be running against both, Dunkirk and Quality Road, in the Florida Derby. I would say, "Good Luck, you've got your work cut out for you", to Jojo's connections. And when you have a chance, check out the physical size of Quality Road compared to the competition. I haven't seen too many writers or observers comment on it, yet. You can be sure. They will.

August Song 10 Mar 2009 6:51 PM

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