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Revenge - A Dish Best Served on Dirt

Going into the Gotham, which was one of the most hotly-debated Derby preps so far this season, there was one thing that nobody could deny: I Want Revenge had a huge class edge.

The question he had to answer was, how would he take to Aqueduct's natural dirt for the first time?

In hindsight, it should have been easy to believe trainer Jeff Mullins when he said he was optimistic that his colt would like dirt better than synthetics. Why? (Again, this is playing Monday morning quarterback), because unlike some California trainers who ship horses to natural dirt as a last resort or to try to reverse poor form, Mullins did it for all the right reasons. After all, it's not as if I Want Revenge had struggled over synthetics; he was beaten narrowly by Pioneerof the Nile in his last two. No, this was a trainer who knew his horse, his stride and his abilities, and was shipping to dirt with a purpose. This was not an experiment.

That I Want Revenge won the Gotham was not a shock. That he did it by more than 8 lengths was.

It's no secret that I was expecting big things from Mr. Fantasy. So when he and I Want Revenge were noses apart approaching the top of the stretch after running relatively soft fractions, I was thrilled. This is the scenario I envisioned.

What I did not envision was I Want Revenge drawing off like a machine. You couldn't help but be impressed by his powerful strides in the final furlong and his terrific final time of 1:42.65. Meanwhile, Mr. Fantasy, while running a good race, tired in deep stretch; more so than I thought he would. More on him in a minute.

I Want Revenge received a perfect trip but still looks like the real deal. He will head into the Wood, and then the Derby, as a seasoned horse - one that will not have to answer questions about his dirt form and one who proved he can be competitive while running different styles. Give Joe Talamo credit too. He kept the horse closer to the pace than I thought he would on a speed favoring track and put his horse in perfect position.

It will be interesting to see his speed numbers, but whatever they are, he is a legit contender. And another thing his convincing win did was earn California horses some respect. His win should make Pioneerof the Nile and Chocolate Candy look even better on paper, and give those on the West Coast hope that synthetic form can and will transfer to dirt at Churchill.

As for Mr. Fantasy, there are no excuses. He was beaten by a stronger horse, this time. He was looked in the eye for the first time and gave way, which some expected him to do. Hopefully, for me, he will learn from this race and improve in the Wood. Remember, it was only his third start and he beat three of the four stakes winners in the field - easily. His next race will be very telling, but I am still encouraged. Perhaps he will do better if he doesn't have to take all the heat and has something to run at. (Where were you Haynesfield?)

One other thing I have to say is that I am little upset about Alan Garcia's ride at the very end. Mr. Fantasy was clearly the second best horse in that race, but Garcia let up for an instant nearing the wire, allowing Imperial Council to steal runner-up. Mr. Fantasy was tiring, no doubt, but Garcia looked as if he failed to sense Imperial Council on the outside.

Garcia is a young, talented ride but he has to learn that this is Derby season and graded earnings mean everything. By not getting everything out of Mr. Fantasy, in my opinion, he cost him $25,000. That could be big when it comes time for the top19 in earnings.

Speaking of Imperial Council, I was impressed. He started slowly, was next-to-last after three quarters, and finished very strongly in his first test around two turns. And he didn't have Prado. He'll have to be much closer to the pace next time but should only get better with more seasoning. The talent is obvious and I expect his Wood to be a big improvement. Watch out for him.

As for Haynesfield...well, let's just say I was spot on about at least one thing in the Gotham.

One final thought: How frustrating was it to not be able to watch the Gotham live on TVG or HRTV? After looking forward to the race all week I had to call my friend so I could HEAR the race live. I was more than a little upset and I'm wondering how many of you were too.

Apparently, there were contractual obligations between the networks and who the heck knows who. Are you kidding me? And we wonder why the industry isn't doing well.

191 Comments:

If there are any silver-linings to Mr. Fantasy's performance, one would be he knocked almost a second off his time from the previous race at the same distance (that he won by 8 1/2 lengths).  Another would be he was facing stakes horses for the first time and beat 4 of the 5 in the field.  I Want Revenge had run in 2 prominant stakes races prior to this one, finishing 3rd and 2nd, and Mr. Fantasy took him to task for most of the race.  It was the first time Mr. Fantasy was seriously challenged and maybe we can chalk this one up to a learning experience.  Remember, Curlin finished 3rd in the Derby when facing Street Sense and hard Spun for the first time.  Plus, I Want Revenge ran a ridiculously fast time yesterday, way above anything else he's ever done (granted, it was his first race on dirt and perhaps he really is THAT GOOD, but I doubt it).  Finally, the horses are going to meet again in the $750,000 Wood Memorial on April 4th.  Hopefully, Mr. Fantasy can get his revenge against I Want Revenge.

I agree about Garcia giving up.  It appeared like he was pulling back on the reins to slow Mr. Fantasy down.  That no doubt killed a lot of tickets.

Alan 08 Mar 2009 10:47 AM

I for one was not surprised on bit by Haynesfield in The Gotham. I never even considered him for my trifecta. It seemed to me his last two races he was a very impressive winner. Hats off to I Want Revenge for the way he won the race. I was never a fan of his sire Steven Got Even and I'm not yet convinced of him either. The Wood will tell when he faces more experienced horse. I think Imperial Council needed this race and will be the one to go forward in The Wood.

DONNA 08 Mar 2009 11:09 AM

Jason the Gotham proved that a seasoned horse that has been in a G1 race and faced Pioneer of the Nile is simply too much for allowance winners.  New York bred horses are not to be taken seriously this year. Taqarub, Haynesfield, and Mr. Fantasy need to stay in the shallow end.  The good news is you were 100% right about Imperial Council who made every quarter a faster one.  He closed like a freight train and will love the added distance in the Wood.  The two turn experience is just what he needed to move forward making the Wood a very interesting race.  I have a feeling I Want Revenge is going to see a much different horse in the Wood.  I also don't understand why channels that are FOR horse racing can't show major prep races.  It is very frustrating.  One reason my be that we don't promote our stars very well.  Bloodhorse and others should have her 5th G1 win in a row plastered all over the place but instead I am reading how she barely won.  Can someone tell me who the last horse was to win 5 G1 races in a row?

Draynay 08 Mar 2009 11:19 AM

Maybe the best, most decisive prep yet. He did draw off like a machine.

Karen in Texas 08 Mar 2009 11:36 AM

NYRA has a contract with ABC/ESPN for the Belmont and certain prep races, incl. the Gotham.  Amazingly, either NYRA did not press the issue hard, or ESPN refused, to give permission to show the Gotham live on TVG and HRTV even though ESPN never planned to air the Gotham this year.  It does leave me shaking my head.  The contract should be written that a race cannot be shown live by HRTV or TVG  ONLY IF the contracted network IS going to show the race live.   Yes, this sport never runs out of bullets when it comes to shooting itself in the foot.

Barbara 08 Mar 2009 11:38 AM

There is no denying I Want Revenge was impressive in his Gotham victory. His time for the distance on the inner track was the most impressive I have seen. His trainer won three consecutive Santa Anita Derbies and not one of these winner delivered in the derby. Will I Want Revenge end up like Buzzard Bay, Castledale and Buddy Gil?

I selected Haynesfield to win and he showed up only briefly. It’s not that he got beat, he was just not competitive. The pace of the race was moderate therefore something must have gone wrong with this colt.

In my final assessment of the Gotham contenders, I indicated that Mr. Fantasy was a sprinter and would not hit the board. Well I was partly wrong. He finished third but it is clear he is not a 10 furlongs horse. He is an extremely late foal and has a lot of scope for development. As for Imperial Council whom I had to run second, if he is at the back of the field in such moderate fractions, how will he win a KD that will surely record its first half mile in 46 seconds?

The more I see these colts run the more I am convinced that the filly Rachel Alexandra has the potential to beat them all.

Coldfacts 08 Mar 2009 12:45 PM

I was impressed ith I want revenge's performance yesterday. He relished the inner dirt and drew clear from the speed horse. I feel the other two horses did not perform so well. First of all, Mr Fantasy not hanging in at the end with slow fractions worries and I hope he can improve that. My gut says yes. Imperial council was not an impressive 2nd. He closed in on tiring horses and never came close to I want revenge. I think he has the most work out of two. Haynesfield should be off the triple crown path and maybe prep for the bay shore. I feel that besides I want revenge and Mr Fantasy if he can improve, there is some graded money up for grabs in the wood this year. Go Quality Road.

RJPPDP 08 Mar 2009 12:48 PM

I didn't see or hear the race but at least one thing is certain I Want Revenge can run on dirt.  Have been so skeptical of the CA horses due to the fact they are running on Pro Track and not dirt so you can be able to gauge a bit better as if they can or can't.  Pioneer of the Nile has been very impressive in his starts but here I am again wondering if he will take to dirt.  Baffert from what I can gather is just going to take him to KY. and put him in the Derby not knowing if the horse will like dirt or not.  Big question mark in my mind and am wondering if Gomez is thinking the same thing.

lobieb 08 Mar 2009 12:49 PM

Dray: You are the ultimate Monday morning quarterback. You were dead-wrong about the race, admit it. You said "I Want Revenge has a better chance of flying than winning the race." If you make comments like that your day-after assessment means zero to us.

Eat your crow and move on to this weekend.  

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 1:00 PM

This race says a lot about the California Horses. I'll be keeping my eye on Papa Clem in the LA Derby. If he wins, I'll be betting the Derby winner comes out of California

Teaser 08 Mar 2009 1:02 PM

Draynay, SB went off as the 1-2 favorite and was expected to outclass the field.  If Nan got a clear run she would have bested her. Remember she is considered the next Winning Colors. Her five consecutive G1 wins is impressive but I think the focus is now on reassessing her potential to beat the top colts.  Do you believe she can beat Rachel Alexandra lurking at the back of the Kentucky Oaks field? Highly unlikely! I have always felt that even with all her achievements, she is not the best 3YO filly I the US.

m palmer 08 Mar 2009 1:03 PM

m palmer: Im wondering what your take was on Mr. Fantasy. You were one of the first to turn me on to the colt last month.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 1:05 PM

Barbara,

I was upset that the race wasn't shown on TV until after it was official, too. Here I was, busy flipping channels wondering why it wasn't on TV. You would think the powers that be at NYRA would realize they have nothing to gain with such a fiasco. Sometimes I wonder if the horses aren't the only ones on drugs, lol.

ColdFacts,

I also like Rachel Alexandra and would like to see her race against the colts since there don't seem to be any fillies on the E.Coast that can measure up. Also, she has a better pedigree for going long than SB does.

I was happy to see I Want Revenge head to the dirt. Steven Got Even gets runners over synthetic, but all of his progeny's stakes wins have come over dirt or turf.

Laura R 08 Mar 2009 1:11 PM

  Personally, even after my brother backed completely away from this race altogether, I thought this was an easy triple and sorry I didn’t play the super when it was over, as I liked both the 2-3 over the 6! However, other than “Imperial Council” falling that far back at the start, it all pretty much played out about what I thought that it would. “Masala”-“Russell Road”-& “Haynesfield” all looked like little more than the good allowance ponies that they are! I was actually surprised that “Mr. Fantasy” again held up on the front end as long as he did, as I thought he might change tactics?!...

    And, I agree with Jason's thoughts about this might open up the door a lil wider for the likes of "The Pamplmoussue", "Chocolate Candy", "Pioneerof the Nile" & "Stardom Bound" coming off synthetics especially with  the dreaded 'California Curse' in play...

    However, I don’t think the Kty. Derby winner will be coming out of N.Y.!, possibly California, but tradition points toward Florida or Louisiana!  Thusly, look for the La. Derby to provide a few more real contenders in this coming weekend!!! In any event, “I Want Revenge”’s run was impressive, but then again I remember back, so was “Bellamy Road’s” Wood!!!

zarvona 08 Mar 2009 1:12 PM

Dead wrong ? Jason... my horse came in second that doesn't make me dead wrong.  He posted very slow fractions and closed very strong making up 10 lengths on Mr. Fantasy in the final 100 yards.  Imperial used the race to prep for the Wood like you said he would.  I expect a much different race and result in April.  I took my lumps all day but did see some success with Ah Day and the Gotham exacta. M Palmer... Stardom Bound won swinging 8 wide and had to regain stride after a horse swung wide on her.  The races she will be in from now on will be more to her liking.  No more 9 furlongs, 10 or more suits her better.  And Coldfacts ... I could not agree with you more bring on Rachel Alexandra !!!

Draynay 08 Mar 2009 1:21 PM

Stardom Bound was almost defeated by the horrible trip she got - not the competition - yet, she still won. Could any of you give me the name of a 3 year old colt who has won 5 grade 1's in a row? I Want Revenge and Pioneer of the Nile may be the best of the colts but I still think Stardom Bound (or even Rachel Alexandra) could beat them all.

AnneM 08 Mar 2009 1:23 PM

I have done some further research on him and it does not appear he is a potential derby winner. Firstly, his broodmare who was sired by Hall Of Famer Spectacular Bid is unlikely to produce a derby winner. I am to a large extent guided by the history of the derby. The last derby winner to sire a derby winning broodmare was Triple Crown winner Count Fleet. This occurred 43 years ago. In fact, in the last seventy two years, only five winners of TC races have sired derby winning broodmares. Secondly, he appears to have inherited a lot of E Dubai’s genes and will be challenged at any distance over a mile in good company. I was hoping that he would have taken some stamina from the Spectacular Bid side but this has clearly not occurred. He is an extremely late foal (May 24) and will possibly be a fantastic 4YO.

m palmer 08 Mar 2009 1:29 PM

mpalmer: The pedigree stuff is telling, but I wouldnt give up on Mr. Fantasy yet. Again, it was his 3rd start. I want Revenge was still trying to break his maiden in his third start and couldnt. Like you said, he's a late foal. Let's see what happens in the Wood. He ran a faster time by a second than in his allowance race and if I Want Revenge isnt there, he wins that race by five. Kiaran said this himself. It was a nice effort.

Dray: I repeat - you were dead wrong. You said "I Want Revenge has a better chance at flying than winning." Who cares if your horse ran a 1:38 and then slopped up for second, only b/c Garcia made an error.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 1:47 PM

the Wood was a good prep.  Imperial Council rated and closed strongly.  I want Revenge ran near the lead so that Mr. Fantasy would not get a big easy lead and still drew off.  Quality Road still only has 3 lifetime races and none beyond 1 mile.  Dunkirk 2 races.  Only one of those 2 can win the Florida Derby and the reality is that one will beat the other by 3 lengths.  Many of these preps are not really that close.  The Louisiana Derby will not offer much.  Old Fashioned has had only one work in 30 days.  The trainer knows he is fragile.  That type of pattern is not good.

CraigJ 08 Mar 2009 1:49 PM

Kathy: It was a nice work. Will he win the Ky. Derby? Let's wait until the SA Derby before we answer that. Also, we have to see how he looks on the Churchil dirt. What I will say is that he is clearly the top Cali horse right now and he looks even better after what IWR did in the Gotham.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 1:50 PM

Come on,seriously folks.After yesterdays performance who in the hell is gonna' give I Want Revenge any kind of competition? Unless there's a potent shipper showing up for the Wood Memorial,none of the also-rans in the Gotham have a chance..none.IC is too slow.Yes he can improve,but he's not making up 10+ lengths on IWR,no way..Mr.Fantasy is NOT Derby material.That point is moot.His backers can spin it anyway they want,but the fact is he succumbed to a better horse rather easily.Him backing up like that proves he doesn't belong on the Derby Trail,sorry.  3 yo's this time of year are either improving as the distances increase or they're not! Que the sound-bite Jason.. "They are who we thought they were"!!  lol

Also Jason...I wouldn't go to M Palmer for any more of his "inside info."..he had Tiz True in the Sham and Jack Spratt in the FOY,both ran-up the track..nuff' said.   I'm Out..Peace!!

Slew.em.All 08 Mar 2009 2:18 PM

I feel Mr. Fantasy was beaten by a more seasoned colt who had been competing well with G1 company.  Fantasy did remarkably well for a colt making his third start while making a huge jump in class.  Don't write him off yet.  I agree Garcia cost him second.  I think I Want Revenge may bounce next out.  I was not impressed by Shug's horse at all.

Other than IWR's Gotham, the three year old who impressed me most yesterday was the filly, Saarlight with a very fast 7f. win in the Wide Country Stks. at Laurel.  Stardom Bound's race reminded me of a race Numbered Account had in the Prioress, I believe.  Cordero was so overly confident just as Mike Smith was.  Anyway, Susan's Girl was the best that year at the end.

democraticjack 08 Mar 2009 2:37 PM

Jason,I just watched the replay of the Gotham and Garcia was getting into Mr.F pretty good.Wasn't his fault the horse lost second place.He was breathing fire and had no more to give.It is what it is my man. "if IWR doesn't ship east,we win by 5" lol..hindsight can be a buzz kill sometimes.

Coldfacts:  there's no comparing IWR with Buzzards Bay,Castledale or Buddy Gil.The latter 3 were lucky 1 hit wonders,we know IWR is a legitimate Derby Contender...

Slew.em.All 08 Mar 2009 2:48 PM

Jason, unlike our friend Draynay I will admit to underestimating I Want Revenge.  That horse has taken to the dirt like a duck to water and although the Gotham field was not as accomplished as say the FOY, the running time, the winning margin and the way he tracked the speedy frontrunner and outclassed his rivals down the stretch suggests that he belongs in everybodies top ten or Derby dozen.   I still think that Mr Fantasy is a very good 3YO in the making.  If he is not rushed for the Triple Crown races he could be very dangerous for the midsummer races (Jim Dandy, Haskell and Travers).  On pedigree Imperial Council could be one for the Belmont stakes but I can't see his rate of improvement closing that 8 lengths gap on I Want Revenge before the Derby.  

Sorry Draynay, you may be abandoning Vineyard Haven for Imperial Council too desperately and too soon.  Also forget about Stardom Bound as a Derby threat.  She should compete with the fillies for now.  

Ranagulzion 08 Mar 2009 3:05 PM

TO M PALMER:

Are you kidding! You must not seen the SAME RACE that I did w/ Stardom Bound. Look at what she had to overcome running 8 or 9 wide. How many horses in her situation yesterday could win considering the set up?

Mike Relva 08 Mar 2009 3:20 PM

I for one fail to see why so few people are giving Stardom Bound little or no credit. To have to swing out the eight or so wide that she did and still come on to win the race is an accomplishment. Must every horse who comes from behind always have a set jet engines on their behind and smoke the field to earn accolades?

Another thing I find puzzling is why Baffert does not what to see how Pioneer of the Nile will run on dirt. One would think you would want to have a clue going into the Derby on May second.

DONNA 08 Mar 2009 3:27 PM

Slew: Garcia got into him pretty good in deep stretch, that wasnt my problem. It was just before the wire that he eased up. Some of the connections feel the same way.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 3:42 PM

Bafftert doesn't want to know.  You either go to the Derby or not.  Pioneer has the earnings if he loses on dirt by 20.  Handicappers want to know because they bet money.  Owners go to the Derby if they had the horse.  Just like some horses don't "like Churchill" or when a good "dirt" horses gets waxed this year in Kentucky, they will say "he didn't handle the track"  No one knows anything yet.  Weather, Post Positions.  Possible Speed Duel with Old Fasioned, Pamplemouuse and Quality road.  the Main thing you want is improvement.

CraigJ 08 Mar 2009 3:53 PM

Jason -

IWR - 115 Beyer

MR. F - 98 Beyer

HAts off to IWR - just an awesome performance - Spoke to both Kiaran and Garcia - heres what they said after the race:

Kiaran McLaughlin said, "The best horse won today. We were second-best, even though we didn't get second. If that horse doesn't ship East, we win by five.  The winner just ran a hole in the wind.  We never got a chance to relax.  We got pressured from the outside the whole way.  We were a head from beating the rest of a really nice field."

Alan Garcia said, "He got a little worked up in the paddock.  I thought he settled in the warm up.  He was a little tough at the gate.  I didn't really want the lead, but nobody wanted it.  The winner was good, but I think my horse can run better.  It was not his day.

SCC 08 Mar 2009 3:59 PM

IWR - dont know if he can replicate a 115 Beyer in the Wood - dont think he has to. Just a good effort in the Wood will set him up perfectly for the Derby. Imperial C. - yea he got second and yea he was coming at the end, but with the fractions the way they were he still finished 8 1/2 back with Mr. F.?? - Maybe they both can improve from this race, but Mr F. has 3 career races - 97, 93, 98 Beyers - maybe thats his max, maybe not. We shall see.

SCC 08 Mar 2009 4:28 PM

I  have  to  eat  crow.  I  thought Mr. Fantasy  would  take  off  when  hitting  the  stretch  as  Garcia  was  sitting  still  in  the  saddle. He  didn't  respond  and  IWR  did.  

 It  wasn't  the  first  time  that  I  was  wrong.

SlewStable 08 Mar 2009 5:02 PM

I think some of you need to realize that the Gotham for Imperial Council was little more than a workout.  His Hall of Fame trainer did not want him flying out near the lead like he had in previous races.  There is no rush.  He now has a full month to prepare him for the Wood.  If you think for one minute you will see the same type of race from him in 4 weeks you are crazy.  I Want Revenge is going to see a whole different horse come April.

Draynay 08 Mar 2009 5:14 PM

Revenge looked awesome and I still think Stardom B should go against the boys, smith waited to long to get her kick goingplus the wide trip and the horse to her inside ducked out in the stretch that caused SB to pause slightly.What all the other  Cal horses will do on dirt is up in the air but no doubting Revenge. As for the ny breds well local talent is about it.Things getting interesting for the 3 yr olds lets see what happens over the next month.

2 time valley player of the year 08 Mar 2009 5:19 PM

TO DRAYNAY:

I was wrong w/Haynesfield yesterday. Good point regarding IP,I'm convinced he will improve. I Want Revenge is a nice horse,but I can't stand the trainer,period!

Mike Relva 08 Mar 2009 5:51 PM

Draynay- Finally someone who saw the Gothan for what it was! A tune up for Imperial Council without taking too much out of the tank and a more seasoned graded stakes competitor putting away sprinter-miler types. Don't get me wrong, I had I Want Revenge as a lukewarm favorite going in purely based on how he has competed with more legitimate runners. Truthfully, I would like to see I Want Revenge take back farther off the pace in the Wood and finish up a closing 2nd or 3rd while not knocking himself out, a perfect setup for the big dance!

TonyC 08 Mar 2009 5:52 PM

Guys, Stardom Bound usually goes wide because that’s the only way deep closers can get a clear run to the line. At least she had a clear passage. Review the race and look at Dough O' Neil’s entry. She had nowhere to go and had to be driven sharply to the inside then straighten for her challenge. This was occurring while SB was keeping a straight course.

Slew.em.All, you are kidding. What are the chances of having three consecutive one hit wonders. I think my question is legitimate. IWR will not be enjoying the moderate pace of the Gotham in the Derby, so do not expect to see the explosive finish. The likely winner of the derby did not run yesterday and will not come out of CA. The winner is currently in Dubai and he will is the least of the Godolphin nominees. Godolphin’s only chance of winning the derby has come and in the least expected way i.e., with a gelding that started his racing career in a $22,000 calming race.

Coldfacts 08 Mar 2009 5:56 PM

Jason, you wrote: "Cali horses have been abysmal in Derbys for a looong time."

I simply responded to that by showing that Calif horses have been anything but abysmal. You then replied with: "There is one California winner in that whole group you mentioned, and he was a fluke. I don't care about 2nd, 3rd or 4th place finishes. Give me winners."

You should have clarified that in your original statement, because I was only responding to the part that Cali horses have "been abysmal" in recent Derbys.  They haven't been abysmal; many have run quite well.  One horse I overlooked was Empire Maker, who wintered in Cali and ran in the Sham before Frankel realized he really didnt care for the track and shipped him to win the Florida Derby and Wood and run 2nd in the Derby.  Cali horses just havent WON many of the recent Derbys. Those are two different points. Had you written something like- "Cali horses have been in the Derby winner circle one time in the last 8 runnings"- I wouldn't have responded.

As for I Want Revenge's awesome win in the Gotham, I don't think we can necessarily assume that all of the Cali horses will transfer their form to dirt as well. While synthetic Beyers, like turf Beyers, tend to run 7-10 points slower than dirt Beyers, I dont expect all of the Cali 3 year olds to make the same 20 point Beyer jump IWR did.  IWR was a horse whose connections correctly judged simply didnt run to his max on synthetics. Are Pioneer, Candy, Papa and others dirt horses running well DESPITE the synthetics? Are they horses who are EQUALLY good on synthetics and dirt? Or, are they simply synthetics freaks who will flounder on dirt?  IWR's Gotham doesn't answer these questions; all it answered is that IWR can run well on dirt. However, I do think the Gotham demonstrated that there is alot of quality in California, even if it turns out to be only synthetic quality.

Interestingly, IWR's Cali to Aqueduct success is but one of many sucessful Cali to Aqueduct moves on the Triple Crown Trail over the past 15 years.  Irgun(94'),Fusaichi Pegasus(00'), Congaree(01'), Empire Maker(03'), and Bob and John(06') all won the Wood after wintering(and running) in Califronia.

In celebrating the cross country exploits of IWR, I would be remiss if I didn't give some HUGE props to Einstein who became the second horse since Broad Brush to ship in from the East and win the Santa Anita Handicap (Contrary to article headlines proclaiming Einstein to be the first horse to ship from the east and win since BB, Milwaukee Brew had been running in New Orleans earlier in 2002 before shipping out to win the Big Cap in 2002). This wasnt a strong running of the Big Cap, with a somewhat slow final quarter of 24 and 4 after a 1:12 and change first 6 furlongs, but Einstein won his 4th grade 1 race of his career and now has graded stakes wins on turf, dirt, and synthetic. The sport could use more horses like him.    

GunBow 08 Mar 2009 6:04 PM

Dray, man up and admit you were wrong. Eight lengths wrong. IWR is growing wings as we speak.

THEN say, IC lives to fight another day.

I do agree with you (gulp) that IC wasn't fully cranked for the Gotham and I think he gets better with distance, but he needs to improve sharply.

I don't think Stardom Bound is the optimal horse for the Derby. I think she has the ability, but her running style in a 20-horse field compromises her. I know Street Sense did it, but dang, that looked like the parting of the Red Sea. How often does that happen?

Pioneer and Old Fashioned both turned in awesome works, so this is getting good.

Tiznowbaby 08 Mar 2009 6:09 PM

A 115 Beyer?..I'm not one of those Beyers fanatics,but if true,that is some serious racing folks! The more I watch the replay,the more impressive he looks.He brutalized Mr.Fantasy into submission,easy fractions and all..threw down the Gauntlet

Some are speculating that he will bounce next race with that Beyer..Don't buy it!  Maybe if he was all-out to win,but he had plenty left in the tank at the end.And he still has room to improve..Scary ain't it?...So now,here's my list of Derby Contenders for the week of: 3/8/09

But first,here's some that didn't make my list  for whatever reason(s)...Stardom Bound-had a feeling they weren't really pointing her to the Derby,her SA Oaks was better than looked,don't think she'll be in the SA Derby either. Dunkirk-he's 2for2 but,as impressive as he's been,he still must pick it up a notch.Fla.Derby will show if he belongs.The late start to his career won't help though. All of the Dubai horses-sorry,"they have a better chance of learning to fly than winning any TC Race"..couldn't resist that one :)

12)Patena--will give him a chance,only because he ran good enough down the stretch in the LeComte.Has to prove that he's over his ailments.Maybe more hype than anything.

11)Flying Pegasus--ran a bang-up 2nd in his 1st off the lay-off against Friesan Fire.Either he moves forward or he bounces.I'm thinking the latter.

10)Theregoesjojo--has to show that he'll handle 2-turns and more real estate.1-turn miles don't count.The talent is there though.

9)Quality Road--see above.

8)Beethoven--don't laugh! He's been as consistent as any since last year.Waiting for his breakout race.But the GP track does not suit him.Better than what he's shown.He's 2for3 @ Churchill.

7)Flat Out--bad break cost him dearly in the Southwest,was the only one striding-out at the end.The Rebel will be his breakout race.Loads of talent and is improving.

6)General Quarters--loved his Sam F.Davis win.He's improving as the distance increases and that's what you wanna' see.He'll face stiffer competition in the TB Derby..Watch him closely.

5)Old Fashioned--well..he is undefeated.Found out he can rate,but he needs to step it up a bit.Still not completely sold on him just yet.

4)The Pamplemousse--come and catch him if you can.He's freaked in his last 2 races.We'll see how he fares in the SA Derby vs. better stock.

3)Friesan Fire--finally has figured it out.Looks like the blinkers and 2-turns is what he needed all along.Expect more improvement from him.He should runaway from the LA.Derby field next.

2)Pioneer of the Nile--does what he has to do in his races,and that's win.Classy individual who commands even more respect after what IWR did to the "dirt horses".Will have to wait and see if he handles dirt too.

1)I Want Revenge--the obvious choice here.A 115 Beyer(routing) in the inner track is unheard of! Looks like a tremendous machine on dirt.

Feel free to scrutinize!!

Slew.em.All 08 Mar 2009 6:57 PM

I am guilty as most of looking for the needle in the haystack. I believe as years go by we will all understand what we saw last year was a very rare feat.  Big Brown did what few have ever done in the Derby and may not happen again in our lifetime.  A horse with only 4 starts will not win the Derby again.  The grueling race demands solid foundation and experience and the Gotham should teach us that lesson.  As each day goes by Pioneer of the Nile and his depth of experience looks better and better.  Like many of you I still like a few others like Rachel A, Quality Road, and Imperial Council but such a demanding race must be respected and only solid foundations should be considered true threats to win the Derby this year or most any other year.

Draynay 08 Mar 2009 7:00 PM

After reading all the comments above, I do not think that IC or IWR have any chance against Old Fashioned at the Derby.  Call me biased but honestly, they have no chance, and you can quote me on that.   OF hasn't even been tested yet.  I too wanted Mr. Fantasy to destroy the field, but it was not to be.  Stardom Bound definitely shouldn't run against the boys and I can't wait until Rachel Alexandra or Evita Argentina take her on! As for her winning 5 grade one's, its only because there were no other excellent fillies until recently.

OLDFASHIONED GAL 08 Mar 2009 7:09 PM

Draynay:  if that's what keeps your hope alive,have at it!He has no chance in the Wood Memorial

Coldfacts: YOU are kidding right?..City Style,that turf runner..Please!!! lol

Slew.em.All 08 Mar 2009 7:10 PM

Tony your right on.  IWR will hopefully lay 5 lengths back in the Wood, and just finish with a nice close for 2nd or first within a couple of lengths.  IC will improve, yesterday was a workout.  In four weeks it will be for the money!

CraigJ 08 Mar 2009 7:12 PM

This just shows how tough the west coast contingent of the triple crown trail is this year.  I Want Revenge dominated what was hyped up to be the most competitive prep race this year. I'm not saying that the other horses were not nice horses, they are, but I Want Revenge was just in a league of his own in this race.

The main horses to watch this year are in California and the winner of The Kentucky Derby (G1) may have just won in the Gotham or it could be any horse in what will now certainly be the race to watch; The Santa Anita Derby.

So many qustions have to be answered now, but it seems pretty clear now what coast the winner will be out of too me. Will it be I Want Revenge? His arch rival Pioneerofthenile? The Pamplemousse who certainly looks like the horse to beat this year? Maybe even the great filly Stardom Bound? We'll see come the first saturday in may, and I'm not even close to convinced on Dunkirk yet until we see how he handles Quality Road in The Florida Derby if that's where he shows up.  

Ascot Park 08 Mar 2009 7:42 PM

Anyone heard about possibles for the Lane's End at Turfway?  I live in Michigan and have been debating about whether to make the drive down I-75 to Turfway.  I made the treck in 2003 and 2005.  The 2003 running featured a couple of future grade 1 winning sprinters Champali and Lion Tamer, while 2005 winner, Flower's Alley, bounced back from a terrible run in Kentucky to win the Travers and run 2nd in the Breeders Cup Classic.

Even though Hard Spun came out of this race in 2007, I'm worried that with the change to Poly and  the increasingly conservative approach of most trainers, the Lane's End is going to lose all relevance.  The timing for the Lane's End just doesnt seem to jive with most trainers' schedules. A trainer could do what Larry Jones did with Hard Spun, and wait 6 weeks before going straight into the Derby.  However, 6 weeks is a long time, and I think most trainers would prefer 4-5 weeks. If trainers want to give their horses another race after the Lane's End, they will have to come back in 3 weeks for races such as the Blue Grass or Arkansas Derby before coming back in another 3 weeks for the Derby, or run in the Lexington which would give 4 weeks after the Lanes End but only 2 weeks to the Derby.

GunBow 08 Mar 2009 8:21 PM

Kudos to Helen Pitts-Blasi for showing that she could have done just as good a job with Curlin as any man, had she not been underestimated! Bravo, for becoming the first woman to train a S.A.Hcp. winner!

And , yes, Stardom Bound not only had to run closer to Clocker's Corner than to the inside rail, she Was throw off-stride in the last 50 yards, and still won. That is class.

goodwin 08 Mar 2009 8:41 PM

I am stil in shock at the way Mr. Fantasy folded without putting up a fight. I still don't know how I Want Revenge took off like a rocket in the stretch. Is he that much better on dirt and do you think he'll bounce in the Wood? And yes I too am eating crow.

Tim 08 Mar 2009 8:42 PM

I think Chocolate Candy will be able to handle the dirt. This win by IWR certainly puts CC back in the spotlight.

MRO 08 Mar 2009 9:38 PM

Slew.em.All, they are certainly are  not going to win the Derby with the multi-million purchases. They are going to stumble into a derby winner. His pedigree does not suggest turf and he runs all day. Review the Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf and you will see how good he is. Make no mistake, any horse that can close from 12 lengths second to last to be beaten 21/2 by Donativum and Westphalia in 1:34 and change can certainly run. Big Brown and Barbaro started on the turf. Reserve your Judgment until after the UAE Derby. He will be against running against Desert Party who didn’t make your list.

On the subject of your list, I think Quality Road should be #1. He has been the most impressive prep winner on the male side. IWR was running his 7th race in the Gotham and followed very slow fractions; QR followed a 45.55, 1:09.40 pace compared to IWR’s 48.45, 1:12.69. QR is clearly the faster of the two and to some extent is unknown.

Coldfacts 08 Mar 2009 9:51 PM

Man, people are so fickle and what have you done for me lately. Everyone has been dismissing the West Coast horses because of the synthetic courses and not even the best of them comes east and demolishes the field and the only thing some people can say is well the field wasn't that great. SB doesn't win by daylight but a win is a win, even Secretariat and Seattle Slew lost some suspect races.  "A horse with only 4 starts will not win the Derby again"... wow, can I borrow your crystal ball? You know prior to 2007, you probably said no horse will win the derby with just 3 starts. That's beyond an arrogant claim, then again you know Unbridled's Song will never sire a derby winner.

Chris 08 Mar 2009 9:51 PM

I Want Revenge was very impressive, and got a 113 beyer, which is really impressive.  But I think Imperial Council did pretty well too, he didn't go along with his usual style and closed extremely well to get second, I don't think he'll improve enough to challenge I Want Revenge in the Wood if the same horse shows up, but he did do very well.

 I can't beleive how many people I've seen dropping Stardom Bound like a hot potato just becuase she won her fifth consecutive grade 1 race by a nose!  Not just on this blog, but everywhere.  She ran her heart out, and showed another demension to me, this was the first time she was ever in trouble and she showed the championship title wasn't just given, she earned it.  I think she deserves a shot at the boys, and I'm not all that convinced the boys would beat her, Pioneerofthenile and the Pamplemousse included.  

 I'm interested, does anyone else think she deserves the chance to face the boys, or has earned it, and why?

Brian A. 08 Mar 2009 11:04 PM

Ascot Park: There are a couple pretty good horses in Louisiana and Arkansas. One of them is undefeated, I believe. Dont crown the Derby winner just yet, pal.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 11:28 PM

Gunbow: I'll be at Turfway for that race too. They always put on a nice show for the Lane's End. Havent heard who's in in yet, but dont worry, the Derby winner isnt coming outta that race.

jshandler 08 Mar 2009 11:29 PM

This field was and is highly suspect, no graded earnings in race outside of winner, IWR figured to be a 4 length winner based on class and race shape alone, State Bred NY horses have their place but it is typically against other State-Breds not open G3 company, I think the hoopla surrounding horses going from Pro-ride to dirt is really a made up argument that does not merit much weight...these horses are 3 and were all bred in 2006 with the intent of trying like 30,000 others to get to the derby..which is on dirt...and as we all know dirt races have a different race shape than pro-ride which makes The Pamplemousse even more of a freak show.....If you think IWR ran a hole in the wind wait until The Pamplemousse gets a chance at the dirt...game over!

drewclearwhenroused 08 Mar 2009 11:33 PM

Cold...What are you doing over here? Nice seeing you.

Spot on with the Stardom Bound. To me she's starting to look like a lot of precocious 2YO who, while still good, don't make the leap to the next level.  If they want to go the classic route, I would suggest they look at the "Rags" route--Oaks/Belmont.  Her running style is always going to have her wide and a smaller field of colts would sure help.

But, Jose Adan??? C'mon.  You really think he's gonna get it done for "The Boys"??  If you're right, I hope you got some future action going because you're gonna get paid--big time.  

As for the Gotham.  Huge run by IWR, no doubt. But, I still think IC will be the best of this class.  

Scarletandgraypimpernel 08 Mar 2009 11:39 PM

It is way too early to crown the Derby winner. There are just too many variables going on out there. Sure we can get an idea of who  may be able to handle the Derby but a winner? No way. And the way the "boys" are dropping like flies Stardom Bound may be able to beat them. What she overcame to win on Sat was incredible. But I do  agree that her running style may not bode well in Derby traffic. I would like to send my condolences to the connections of Blue Exit. I know we are talking about Derby preps but I just needed say something.

gammyp6 08 Mar 2009 11:55 PM

Stardom Bound has worked hard before, because she lost twice.

Citation 09 Mar 2009 12:08 AM

This happens every year everyone jumps on the early bloomers from either the top horse on the east or west coast and are shot down in the triple crown races by late bloomers.  I'll stick with the midwest horses and let all you pro's keep your east and west coast horses.

As for IWantRevenge how many horses run that big and come back to do well, he either really likes the dirt or is another Bellamy Road ran a huge figure and could never reproduce (I know BR had physical issues).

hardlyhatful 09 Mar 2009 12:32 AM

Look I was very impressed with IWR win but I worry jumping all over him as a top derby horse. After the race I monday morning qb and notice that he has high tomlinsons and was bulleting works in cali. To remind everyone,Gayego went from a also ran in ca to winning the arkansas. I can't select a horse for the derby yet but I have a feeling he is coming from the south. Either Ark, LA or Fla. I have a gut feeling but I need to see how things pan out.

RJPPDP 09 Mar 2009 1:06 AM

Yes, a round of applause for Einstein!  And a moment of silence for Blue Exit. . .

I though Ventura (along with IWR) had a very impressive race this weekend.  If she hadn't bobbled for a moment after besting Dixie Chatter, GioPonti would not have nailed her.  She accelerated like one of the Europeans!  It was impressive.

Kat 09 Mar 2009 1:28 AM

Draynay.  I agree with you regarding the foundation put into POTN.  I think he had 5 races as a 2 year old.  Jason thanks for putting Chocolate Candy so high on your top ten despite the fact he runs on "Magic Dirt."  I know you got some ribbing for this. We on the West Coast will now forgive you for putting Ginger Punch ahead of Zenyatta all those months despite evidence to the contrary.  

Householder 09 Mar 2009 1:46 AM

I think it was the philosopher Hume who once wrote "A Wise Man Porportions his Belief in relation to the evidence."  Here is what we know.

1).  Time is running out.  Unless the horse you like is running in the Derby Trial you have 1 more prep (those behind schedule perhaps two which means you get 3 weeks to rest).

2).  We have heard a lot of people talking about what horses are going to do.  Would it not be better to look at what horses have done?  The Derby Winner has already won a graded stakes race.  It's time to drop the should of, could of, would have.  Cali has been consistent.  Examine the data. No one is backing up.

3).  The Derby Winner will have finished 1,2, or 3 in their final prep.

4).  A lot of Dirt Horses hate the KY Derby as well.

5).  Good synthetic horses run well on dirt, great ones dominate.

6).  The best trip not the best horse wins the derby.  Look for something that has a good foundation and has overcome a difficult trip (Mike Smith looked like he was driving a semi-truck aboard Stardom Bound).  I think POTN has 5 starts as a two year old.

Householder 09 Mar 2009 2:05 AM

    I Want Revenge looked great in the Gotham.  Too bad it was March 7th and not May 2nd.  If he bounces in his next, I won't be surprised.  That might actually be a good thing for those who are backing him.  It would only increase your price in the Derby.  I think he's a nice colt though and deserves consideration, but probably not top 3 right now.  Another good performance in the Wood would change my mind.  Of course I thought Mr. Fantasy would be better and ran IWR for 2nd on my tickets.  Like all others, time will tell.  For your sake Jason, I hope West Point leans towards giving Mr. Fantasy another shot on the Derby trail and not likely taking him off of it like Finley was saying.

    Hey, Dray what happened to Vineyard Haven no doubt will win the Derby because nobody is in his league?  Anyway, I decided to put your theory of watch your horse's fractions at the 6f pole to see if they have a legit chance in the Derby to the test.  Even if the Gotham was a tuneup for Imperial Council (and you're probably right), his 6f fractions wouldn't be good enough.  Same thing for Stardom Bound.  She's a tremendous filly and I know she had a terrible trip, but so did Nan.  In fact, I think Nan's trip was just as bad.  She was checked on the turn for home, swung wide and then dove down towards the rail to avoid slowing horses.  Does anybody really think Stardom Bound would be able to run The Pampelmousse down if he gets loose on the lead or get the jump on Pioneer of the Nile & then hold him off in the stretch of the SA Derby let alone do it in the KY Derby?  I just can't see Stardom Bound winning the Derby.  There would be too many other quality colts who would get the jump on her at the 1/4 pole by 4 or 5 lengths or so for her to make up the distance in the stretch.  She's much better suited to run against the girls in the Oaks & there's nothing wrong with that.  

Curlin 09 Mar 2009 2:32 AM

Not convinced that the Left Coast runners are that good yet. All the Gotham proved is what Mullins already knew...his horse liked dirt better than rubber. But does the the three big horses at SA feel the same?

Still like Quality Road and Old Fashioned until they show me otherwise. By the way, that workout that the latter put in at Oaklawn yesterday was absolutely sensational. 1/22 by almost a full second in five.

www.equibase.com/.../OP030809USA-EQB.html  

The Wizard 09 Mar 2009 3:59 AM

I've thought all along Chocolate Candy will run like IWR when he hits dirt...

I sure wish Talamo would lighten up on this horse...he sure doesn't need the whip like it's gonna be a dead heat when he's drawing away by how many lengths? I wish this colt had a calmer hand...horses like this give you 100% every time out.

da3hoss 09 Mar 2009 6:51 AM

Gee, I didn't realize the Gotham was merely a "fine-tuning" or a "workout" for some of the horses...I truly thought it was a horse race, silly me.

Do the bettors know these things before the race?

I guess I am getting old...I foolishly think they're running to win!

da3hoss 09 Mar 2009 7:03 AM

He's a Bad Dude to win like That Congrats to Jeff Mullins  It's Him and Dunkirk for the Roses>>>>>

John Boudreau 09 Mar 2009 8:04 AM

Memorabilia question here.  My friend found a "Universal Horse Identification System" card (back in the 70s) of SECRETARIAT, created by Pinkerton Security prior to his first race on July 4th 1972.

It shows front and side shots of the horse, close-ups of the markings on each of his legs, and info about his size and coloring, etc.

The ID cards were then apparently used at the tracks by people who inspect horses prior the race, to make sure the horse entered was indeed that horse.

My question is, how many of these were created, how many still exist, and what might it be worth?

I have a scan of the ID if you wish to see it.  

Alan 09 Mar 2009 8:15 AM

Sorry the correct Beyers were

IWR - 113

MR. F - 98

SSC 09 Mar 2009 8:45 AM

draynay,

Your horse ran a 1:14+ 3/4 and a 1:38+ mile, of course he was running at the end, he didn't run  at all in the first mile!! He couldn't help but run each fraction faster since he did so little running for most of the race. I Want Revenge finished just as fast and maybe a little faster after contesting the pace. Since this blog started you have bashed horses that ran their 3/4 and mile fractions in 1:13 and 1:37 time and time again. Your horse was light years slower!! Why all of a sudden has it changed and IC gave an impressive performance in your warped world?

It looks like this year may return to normal. Much better prospects, we won't see a scenario like last year where the competition was so weak it allowed a horse with so few starts to win. I hope we never see that again either. A one horse Derby is not good for the sport.

draynot 09 Mar 2009 8:59 AM

What did the Thorograph # come up for the 'no-chance' winner?

fastjoey 09 Mar 2009 9:01 AM

Chris ... we will be here !  Come back and let us know when any horse EVER wins the Derby on their 4th start again.  Also, let us know when a Unbridled Song son wins the Derby.

As you watch the prep races it seems the experienced horses with races at 2 turns have a huge advantage.  Mr. Fantasy took on a horse with a lot more experience and it showed.  Four races is not enough to win you the Derby unless you are Big Brown.  Pass on horses like Dunkirk.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 9:03 AM

To All,

My take on the Gotham and Aqueduct's track bias for Saturday:

The winner - IWR - had every right to improve when moving to dirt and getting away from Pioneer. I just don't like to see that much whip action from a jockey when the race has been won.

2nd - How much does someone want to bet that Rajiv isn't on the horse next time out. There's a lot of room for improvement here with that 1st race around (2) turns over.

The Rest OTF - Mr. Fantasy was a HUGE dissapointment. I'm sorry if some of you lost money because he didn't finish 2nd, but back-off on Garcia. As for  Haynesfield - He just saved his owners a lot of shipping expenses. The rest were out-classed.

AQU - Saturday this track had a definite SPEED bias. While this jockey colony is not the best (Ramon was in CA taking all their $$), Garcia is the only competition that Ramon has. Take the 6th race Saturday. Look back in the form, there will not be one of you that would have Counter Move gunning for the lead. UNLESS, you realized that the only chance he would have is for him to be sent. Garcia realizing there was a bias, was smart enough. The result, a nice payout from a 3yo horse who looks to have a nice future under his new connections.

Keep an eye for him.

Finally, for the record - I'm still an "Old Fashioned" guy. Plus that 59 flat W/O sets him up perfect for Saturday. In addition, I'm also not giving up on Beethoven. Let's see what happens in the FL Derby.

DERBY34 09 Mar 2009 9:21 AM

Sounds like Mr. Fantasy is off the Derby trail, according to Haskins.  He didn't look like a happy camper in the Aquedeuct stretch, or screaming for more ground next time.  We'll see him again though.

hoss 09 Mar 2009 9:27 AM

Hi Jason, The Gotham, in my opinion, turned out to be pretty enlightening on a couple of fronts, but it seems way too many posters are giving way too much credence to the result as opposed to how the race served to clear up the Derby picture. I Want Revenge accomplish his task and did so powerfully, I don’t wish to diminish his effort. He proved he could handle the dirt and that he’s a legitimate Derby candidate, however, we knew that before this race – the only question was the dirt. He’s an experienced horse that was perfectly prepped for this effort and beat a field of question marks. Mr. F and Haynesfield had distance limitation questions, while Pletcher’s horses were a lightly raced pair taking a big step up, and the rest of the field appeared overmatched – save one – Imperial Council, and he was clearly using the race as a prep. It was interesting to see the posters remarks concerning his race. They may want to check the last 3/16 come home times for the winner and IC before dismissing his effort as anything but a solid performance especially considering Maragh sat on him like a statue until the 3/8th pole.

My final analysis on the Gotham and its implications for the Derby is simple. I Want Revenge put away a lightly raced horse in Mr. Fantasy over the same Aqueduct inner dirt track that has primarily carried speed the entire meet, Imperial Council got tightened up in his first effort around two corners and Mr. Fantasy is not either accomplished enough or ready to go longer at the present.

Outlook for the Wood – A completely different race and racetrack. People should keep in mind that Aqueduct’s main surface plays a whole bunch different than the inner track when handicapping this race. The field for the Wood is certain to come up strong with a lot of needed graded money at stake. I Want Revenge will get a big test and we’ll see if the Gotham was as good as many think. Imperial Council should be ready for McGaughey’s progressive tightening, and getting Prado back, will make his first serious effort toward Louisville. Anybody that bets he won’t be a major player in this race will do so at their own peril, he may not win it, but there will be no 8-½-length difference this time. This is a very nice horse that is going to love extra ground and is just beginning to show the benefit of patient handling.  

mg 09 Mar 2009 9:43 AM

Jason, I just read your comments about the Lane's End.  I haven't heard much about who is running, but if Breen takes West Side Bernie there, it won't matter who else is running.  He loves the track.  You're right the winner of the Derby won't come out of the Lane's End, but West Side Bernie (if he runs there) is good enough to come along on Derby Day and round out the super at a nice price just like Tale of Ekati, Imawildandcrazyguy, Jazil, etc. did.

Curlin 09 Mar 2009 10:45 AM

I'm with Slew, a 115 Beyer at 1 1/8 wow!! He finished his last quarter in right around 24.0 as well (last years derby winner came into the derby never finishing a last quarter in under 25.3 on the dirt). That's light years ahead of what last years Derby winner ran his entire career!! This year is starting to look like a much better year for talent than last years weak bunch. Make no mistake about it, the weak field last year was the biggest reason a horse won off so few starts and from the post he ran from. It can happen again if the competition comes up that weak some year and there is only one real runner from the bunch. There simply was no horse in that race that had run very fast other than him going in.

First we have Quality Road running a 113 beyer (albeit only a mile)and now IWR going him one better with a 115. Theregoesjojo is right on pace with last years derby winner(who had a 106 best going in) with a 105. I suspect there will be more in the days to come who put up some nice speed figs to add to the mix. I don't think we will see a Derby run in almost 2:02 (which was at least 10 lengths behind what Secratariat and Monarchos ran in their derby's)like last year.

the_wiz 09 Mar 2009 10:47 AM

Draynay:  Your last post sounded so penitent, like a repentant horseplayer who has had a reality check.  Let me guide you back to the top class experienced 2YOs of last season, Big Drama and Vineyard Haven(dont give up on proven class because of one lack lustre performance early in the season). Ignore the Dubai naysayers Draynay and be patient.  Big Brown is history but Big Drama is destiny.  Also pay attention to what Godolphin does.  I guarantee you that if Vineyard Haven shows up at Churchill Downs he is going to be a live and potent contender so be comforted.  If you can't wait on these two classy ones then I wish to recommend that you seriously consider these four as reasonable alternatives: Quality Road, I want Revenge, Theregoesjojo and The "Mousse".  I am tempted to also suggest Dunkirk but fear that this might irk you too much before I'm done.

Slew.em.All:  Regarding your derby Dozen I take issue with you on three members of your list.  Patena, Flat Out and General Quarters still need at least one more race to prove that they really belong.  It appears that you are not one who regards 2YO form, foundation and proven class.  I say that we are still to see a few more twists and turns on this 2009 Derby journey and I have a hunch that tradition may prevail this year.  As things are right now my guess is just as good as yours.

Ranagulzion 09 Mar 2009 11:21 AM

Brian,

Firstly, those who already discount Stardom after the Oaks are foolish in regards to the Derby! I don't like her against colts; however, I will point out that Eight Belles was not a very good filly and she came in second in the Derby in a HORRIBLE three year old crop! When Rags won the Belmont- she had a solid record of grade 1 wins under her belt. Compare that to Eight Belles- that horse did not have a record you would expect from a horse running second in the KD!   EB lost 4 of her first 5 races and never won a grade one race- the Grade 2 race that she did win was a very small field- so ANYTHING can happen in May- if EB can come 2nd- I wouldn't bash Stardom too hard.

I do not hold a high respect for most of the Cali horses as they flop every year- I liked Revenge so much because I knew he would love the dirt. I'm willing to bet that whoever wins the SA Derby- no matter who it is- WONT be first or second in the Derby-especially with the difference in track surface.

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 11:44 AM

OK I bet the winner-big deal. What I saw was a horse draw off against a suspect field. I was actually surprised not that he won, but by so many. After watching a million or so races he didn't look like a winner at all points like some. If you watched ---Example: One for Phils previous race where he got the high Beyer he was sitting cocked and loaded and you wondered just when Prado was going to let him run. He is what I mean by looking like a winner at all points-Curlin last year in Arkansas was the same.

My verdict-nice horse, nice win, but not impressed on who he beat. If I could I'd book the bets on the horses behind if you want them in the Wood.

Stardom Bound--that race impressed me-she had more at the end. The margin was slight no disagreement there. I think it came down to Mike Smith thought he was on the best and rode her like that---too confidently-some times it costs you. I also didn't see him in a panic at the wire. I think she will go on and get better-same race same fillies she might win by six. Is she my Derby horse? No, but I think she is a contender as is I Want Revenge. The word contender being the key. (again I wouldn't put any that finished behind IWR on that list now)

Next week we see a lot more in terms of more solid races. My two selections are running I believe--the Jones boys--that said I still am not completely sold on either them--just my early picks and I have seen nothing to change that opinion yet.

Marc W 09 Mar 2009 11:56 AM

For the record: Mr. Fantasy is not off the Derby trail. The owners have not made any decision as of yet. The comment on the Preakness was made right after the race and it is just one option they are considering. We will find out in a week or so what the plan is for him.

jshandler 09 Mar 2009 12:03 PM

Slew-

Not a bad list, but I don't go that road as it is a waste of time. The Derby isn't this week, hence constantly making lists that change every weekend doesn't really matter as the positions change so constantly.

I do not see IC winning the Wood Memorial; however, if he runs well- they should put him in the Peter Pan and then the Belmont. I do not think the Derby would do IC good at this time.

The same is true for Mr. F- though if he runs well in his next- they should skip the Derby and put him in the Preakness as I think that would be his best chance of any TC race.

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 12:05 PM

To Brian A.:

I thought Stardom Bound was game and gritty and she WON.  You hear about horses running out of real estate because the race/stretch was too short.  But she was running out of real estate because the track was only so wide!

I am surprised at the connections not defending her performance.  But that may change after Patena runs.  That is probably what they want to "analyze."

Also read that Mike Smith said Stardom Bound, in the winner's circle, was flicking her ears around and seemed like she hadn't run.  Maybe she is bored and tired of having the exact same trip every race!!  Bring on Calvin Borel!!  Just kidding.

Pam S. 09 Mar 2009 12:17 PM

chris,

Don't let nay nay bother you. He's here just as much to ridicule as he is to talk horses. For some reason he cannot grasp that last year was a "freak" year in that there was no quality in the derby field in comparison to those of the past. The fact that a horse won with so few starts can be almost soley attributed to the lack of competition. For some reason he chooses to overlook that. Go watch a replay of that race, the winner right from the start gets away cleanly and has no problems throughout the entire race. Watch the rest of the field bunch up like mini-mite hockey players chasing a puck and bump and push each other to the first turn and beyond. The connections chose the 20 post because they knew there was no real talent and they just had to stay out of trouble to win. Heck the trainer was quoted numerous times before the race saying he feared no other and it was a very weak field. In that respect I hope the scenario never repeats itself. If we don't see it happen again it will be because the circumstances never come up so easy for a lightly raced horse not because last years winner was so great.

gw_bushwacker 09 Mar 2009 12:17 PM

Mr. Fantasy did not look comfortable before the race.  I was at the track  and took photos of him prior.  He was fighting, spitting, and causing a fuss with Garcia on top of him.  At that point, I had a bad feeling.  His head was down and he looked like he didn't want to be there.

It was the same exact way with Big Brown before the Belmont.

Alan 09 Mar 2009 12:31 PM

Who's the obstinate one here who speaks down to "everyone here" about needing to understand IP's Gotham was only a workout? Isn't that the same guy who said it would be IP's coming out party in the Gotham and expected him to romp? It was more like a learning to walk at a slow pace party for IP. Isn't this the same guy who says a 1:13 6f pace and 1:37 mile pace is slow no matter where its run? IP ran over a 1:14 6f and over a 1:38 mile in the Gotham and he's not laughing at that like he did others? draynay you might be slightly legitimate if you stuck to one thought. Instead you go whatever way the wind is blowing that particular day. Confucious say: He who can't make up his own mind and argues a different point depending on how he wants it to fit today is blowing hot air out his backside. Stay clear of this person or light a fire under them, take your pick.

slyder 09 Mar 2009 12:37 PM

The Derby's such a crap shoot. You need a lot of luck to win that race. But one thing I think I know, if I Want Revenge can get out at the top of the stretch, he's going to be awfully tough to beat.

And, in that case, I'll be laughing all the way to the window as I loaded up on him in the futures pool.

Don't sleep on the Stephen Got Evens. He's already had a Juvenile winner that could have easily gone on to take the Derby had he stayed healthy and this horse looks a lot like him. When your daddy's A.P. Indy, you got the blood.

Easy Goer 09 Mar 2009 12:59 PM

mg... I could not agree with you more.  The Hall of Fame trainer of Imperial Council knows exactly what he has and what he is doing.  We all know he can fire a 45 flat anytime he wants but he came out easy running soft fractions and got some very good 2 turn experience and the jockey thought he was the best 3 year he had ever ridden.  A few good works under him and 4 weeks of rest and we will see just how good I Want Revenge really is.  Curlin, da3hoss, and Draynot you may all be right but I will be betting on Imperial Council with Prado on board for the win.  A 105 or 106 Beyer in the Wood will set himself up for a prime run at the Derby. The main track at Aqueduct is going to suit Imperial Council and his running style very nicely...bring it on.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 1:09 PM

Jason - thank you for the dialogue here, it's exciting and rich with content.  I'm thinking the Beyers folks may want to take a pause on the big figures being rewarded.  The two big figs at Gulfstream busted in their next races.  Are we to believe that IWR goes from 81 (I think) a couple back to 113.  Are the figures in question across the board?  Naturally, the horses will sort themselves out as they'll have to face quality company when they go one mile and 1/8 in the April preps.  Until then, there is a lot of speculation.  Again, thanks for the energy you put into this venue.

ElusiveQuality8.

ElusiveQuality8 09 Mar 2009 1:13 PM

You also have to remember that rushing a horse into a race he/she isn't ready for, or would be too draining never works out in the end. Take Copelan- he had the greatest two year old campaign that any horse ever had in New York State- his IDIOTIC connections (As they later apologized) then decided they wanted him to be Horse of the Year, so after winning the Sanford, and the G-1 Hopeful, G-1 Futurity and G-1 Champagne they take him to California and run him in the Hollywood Prevue Stakes- he wins! But is that enough? NO! They then take a tired horse and run him against a fresh Roving Boy in the HW Futurity- he was never the same horse again. He will always be the best example of asking too much of a horse just for glory.

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 1:15 PM

wiz, Ty Cobb[.400],Joe D.'s 56 straight,the "Stilts" 100 points in a single game,a grand slam in golf[same season], and 12 second splits for 12 panels...all records never to be broken!

Prado for Maragh...Prado is Shugs go to guy, but I wouldn't be so critical of his ride[he may have been given these instructions, given the debut going 2 turns, and a strange surface!

nickie 09 Mar 2009 1:54 PM

Slew.em.All & Ranagulzion: You both seem to knowledgeable gentlemen and with all due respect to your opinion regarding Imperial Council’s Gotham run, I’d offer this in rebuttal.

To Slew.em.All: “IC is too slow.Yes he can improve,but he's not making up 10+ lengths on             IWR,no way.”

Too slow! This is a horse that just ran one of the quickest 6 ½ times of the Gulfstream meet against Z Day. I’d certainly think he has enough speed to be placed where he needs to be.

To Ranagulzion: “On pedigree Imperial Council could be one for the Belmont stakes but I can't see his rate of improvement closing that 8 lengths gap on I Want Revenge before the Derby.”

Partner, if they can’t get up at a mile and a quarter, they ain’t getting up at a mile and a half.

Obviously, you gentlemen seem to believe that the Gotham was the best effort this horse has to offer. Preps are just that – preps. McGaughey stated that numerous times prior to this race and seemed was very happy with what he accomplished with the progression ( two turns and settle behind horses). The Gotham wasn’t the target, the target is over a month away and you don’t gear em up to fire their best shot almost two months away.

In contrast, The Gotham was the target for I Want Revenge and he was expressly prepped for it. He ran a great race and deserves top marks for the performance – guess we’ll have to see if Mullins has him firing his best shots now and peaking way too early. However, considering the circumstances involving those two horses in the Gotham, making up 8 lengths for Shug McGaughey & Imperial Council is not only well within their scope but more than probable.

Best of Luck to All.

mg 09 Mar 2009 2:23 PM

draynay,

You didn't answer my question. Why is it now just peachy keen to run such slow fractions in a route and any others that did it before you guarenteed could not win a derby? Could it be you have such a hard time admitting you were wrong and this is your way of correcting your blunder? I'm 100% sure that Larry Jones couldn't disagree with you more if asked when you bashed Old Fashioned for running far quicker fractions than IP after a long layoff in his last race. IP wasn't coming off a layoff either.

Don't get me wrong here, I like IP some as well but did not like the way he ran his race as far as being a derby contender goes. It's getting too late in the game to fool around with dropping a horse so far back and letting him go with one big run and then expecting him to run a completely different race next out just prior to the derby. This is not the 3 yr old class of 2008 he has to face, he's going to have to do a lot better than that to win this years derby.

draynot 09 Mar 2009 3:36 PM

I just loved the Gotham this year. This race and the Santa Anita Handicap just show you how last year's american boys were well below par.  You would expect that the four year olds like Court Vision, Monba, and Cowboy Cal would start to dominate but they lost to a seven and six year old.  And don't forget Smooth Air and Da'Tara losing in ALLOWANCE races last month. The top two in the Gotham and several 3yr olds across the country will provide us many great races in the future.

somario 09 Mar 2009 3:37 PM

Jason,

I thought it was telling that E. Prado hopped off of IP to go ride Monba in the first place. After examining the charts it appears Gomez was on Monba and Prado didn't even have a mount. What's up with that?

the_wiz 09 Mar 2009 3:40 PM

Wiz: Prado missed his flight to Cali, I heard

jshandler 09 Mar 2009 4:07 PM

mg, I'm not yet sold on IWR for the Derby, so my feeling is, if IC makes up those eight lengths, who's still in front of both them that wins the Derby. I'm questioning that IC really has the foundation, in this particular year, to take the Derby. As you said, though, it's well more than a month to the big day, so we shall see who continues to step forward. I think IC improves, but I'm not sure he improves enough.

Tiznowbaby 09 Mar 2009 4:08 PM

Draynot... I thought I answered your question.  I assume the trainer knows the horse better than anyone and as Jason stated earlier the GOAL was the Wood.  Shug is a very smart man and we all have a 3 race history to see just how fast Imperial Council really is.  When the gates opened it was obvious to many what they decided to do with him.  In stretch I never even saw him get whipped and he closed very quickly into very average fractions.  I think Shug got exactly what he wanted out of the race and now gets 4 weeks to get him ready to fire a big one.  Watch his works closely over the next few weeks I think they will be very telling.  If he is firing bullets in a few weeks I will expect nothing less than a victory in the Wood.  He still has another race before he has to fire his best.  A 98 Beyer first time at 2 turns is not the end of the world.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 4:19 PM

Experts--just watch next week before you get a line on horses.

As for preps---I have never seen a horseman want to just prep-they like to win--period! Street Sense was prepping but CB was asking for all he had in the Bluegrass last year. If you think not---watch the race again!

You want your horse to have a winning habit before running in the big one. Anyone telling you different, is playing with the truth.

Marc W 09 Mar 2009 5:33 PM

The derby winner will come from Oaklawn ... nuff said

mburry 09 Mar 2009 5:37 PM

I was impressed with I Want Revenge victory on the Saturday. Going into the race on paper it looked like a 2 horse race between I Want Revenge & Mr Fantasy...

However I want to express my opinion of what I have seen so far from these prep races...

First off I'm pretty confident in saying that no horse that has been running at Gulfstream is going to win the Derby... After the Florida derby I will definitely  know... I'm curious to see how

THEREGOESJOJO runs.. Elusive Quality is a miler in my opinion..  Dunkirk is very talented but your asking a lot in a short period of time.  I will say Beethoven if he runs in the Derby probably wont win but  he will hit the board. He likes Churchill and he has Calvin Borel on his track...

Second, I already think Old Fashion is your derby winner and if he moves up with a 103 + beyer this week  and knowing he has one more prep after that I'm for sure hes your derby winner.  

I want revenge looks like a major player and I respect  him very much.

Last year I  read the book written by Dean Keppler’s “Betting the Kentucky Derby”  What I found to be a very helpful tool was when he was talking about looking at derby horses Beyer numbers he pointed out that in the last 16 Kentucky derby's ( Not Including last year,) 87% of those horses had reached or exceeded a beyer of 100 in one of their three starts preceding the derby. Now with that said here why I think thats very important to know. Only 2 horses who have won the derby have broken this pattern Sea Hero in 1993 his prior beyer  #'s before the derby were 91,91,66.... The other was Giacomo his pre beyer # was a 95 two races before the derby was a 93 and 3 back  was 98

He goes on to say the average Pre- Derby beyer number is 106.9

Oh how funny that Number is considering the book was already in stores when Big Browns win in the derby last year. Big Browns beyers before the derby were 106 in his Alw win and in Florida Derby it was 106 again. He won the derby and earned 109 for his performance.

All you long shot betters don't get upset yet, You can still use this angel and get a price  First in 1999 Charismatic pre derby beyer was a 108 and then he won the derby and paid $64.60 to win.

Then three years later you had War Emblem pre derby beyer 112 and he won the derby and paid $43.00 to win..

I'd just figure I would share that info with all of you even if it knocks my prices down on derby day...

Rocker 09 Mar 2009 5:42 PM

Alan-

Big Brown had two HUGE negatives- his trainer shooting his mouth off and talking a ton of trash all the time when it had no place and wasn't called for!

Secondly, BB had talent- but the horses he beat were the worst 3 year old division I have tracked and studied in the past decade! Is that his fault? No- BUT if you take BB and put him back in time ONE YEAR- would he have won any of the Triple Crown Races- in my opinion........HELL NO!

Take Seattle Slew- as a quick example, the only horses he ever lost to were champions- J.O Tobin, Exceller, Dr Patches.  And the race against Exceller was legendary- Slew was the horse of the year in 1978 but Affirmed won the bogus vote- even Beyer said he voted for Slew.  

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 5:53 PM

Wood or Illinois Derby for Mr. Fantasy

Mr. Fantasy, third in the Gotham after setting the pace, will run next in either the Wood or the $500,000 Illinois Derby at Hawthorne the same day, said Terry Finley, president of West Point Thoroughbreds, which owns the colt.

Finley said Mr. Fantasy would "have to run one-two in one of those spots to warrant taking the next step."

Both Finley and trainer Kiaran McLaughlin were slightly disappointed Mr. Fantasy didn't fare better. However, he was making just his third start and first outside of New York-bred company. He was beaten a neck for second by Imperial Council.

Alan 09 Mar 2009 6:55 PM

Take anything running on "magic dirt" and add 25+ to the Beyer when they hit the real stuff.  JERRY HOLLENDORFER on CHOCOLATE CANDY "To get 90 on synthetic was fine for me.  The numbers don't transfer well as they do on dirt.  Take Hysericalady for example.  She ran 90 on synthetic and 115 on dirt.  The reality is, for the most part they got better numbers on dirt."  The pivital race for me was the CASH CALL.  IWR split horses along the rail in deep stretch like a veteran.  He's a nose off of POTN and two in front of Chocolate Candy who was doing some closing.  None of these have "bounced" or regressed.  This is an easy Tri-Box come Derby day and if you want to live a little throw in the Pamplemousse who should be slowing down but hanging around for 4th.  

Householder 09 Mar 2009 7:17 PM

Coldfacts:  "Quality Road should be #1".What? Hell,not on my list anyway.How can an "unknown",as you put it,be rated #1 on any one's list this late into the preps?.He still has to prove that he routes successfully.At least we know IWR can,and should enjoy even more ground.That's a fact. Do you really think his FOY was more impressive than IWR's Gotham?.Seriously? Everyone knows you take Any&All of Gulfstream Park's times with a grain of salt.I'd respect the final times more if they'd use a stop watch instead..That Turf Horse is pretty good--on turf though.There's a reason why he's been running strictly on turf..cuz' he's a turf horse!He's heading to the UAE Derby because the Sheiks are as desperate to win the KY Derby as Draynay is in trying to keep his sanity..Boo-Yah!! lol..plus Jose Adan(who?) and VH haven't panned-out like they thought,so now they're trying the Turf Horse on dirt,Simple!..worry not,NONE of the Dubai horses are winning any of the TC Races anyway.  Stay Thirsty my Friend! xx

Ranagulzion:  You're certainly entitled to your warped opinion..J/K..but,I'd suggest you scroll back and re-read my thoughts regarding said 3 horses you have an issue with..thx.

Robert H.:  That's the reason I specified my lists' as week ending.. knowing that the possibility of changes being made is imminent.Process of elimination and/or additions regarding my thoughts on the horses...and don't dismiss the Cali Horses so easily,just yet.

mg:  If IC is as fast as you say,he would have shown it in the Gotham.He broke well enough to position himself anywhere he wanted to be,with the average pace up front..Again I say; Anything coming out of Gulfstream with these inflated #'s are subject to scrutiny.They're overblown! like LDP's ego.  :)  No,seriously though.The Only way IC turns the table on IWR in the Wood Memorial is if 'Revenge regresses big-time..can't see that happening,No chance,No way!..I respect Shug a lot,but IC is no Easy Goer.More like Sightseeing to me.Watch for him in the Peter Pan/Belmont mix though.

And finally. Jason..MY MAN!  I see you're still holding Hope for your boy Mr.Fantasy and his TC Trail huh?.. C'mon! Get a refund on that 75-1 futures bet or exchange the ticket for real money and take the Wifey out to a nice Dinner.I'm sure there's a Sucka' out there somewhere.  BTW: I have a Bridge I'd like to show you. lol  PEACE!!

Slew.em.All 09 Mar 2009 7:23 PM

The race on Saturday is between Rachel Alexandra and all the boys several minutes later.  Same track, same distance, same day so NO EXCUSES.  Rachel will run FASTER than the boys and the clock will PROVE it.  Rachel wins by 10 running backwards blindfolded.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 7:28 PM

MG:  Your response to my evaluation of Imperial Council versus I Want Revenge may be condemning IP in both the Derby and the Belmont since he is not expected to close the class gap on IWR before Derby day.  The two furlong difference between the Derby and the Belmont can often be like a chasm depending on the pedigree of the horses.  Remember Smarty Jones was travelling very well until the last furlong of the 2004 Belmont in which he lost to Birdstone, a horse that didn't have a prayer for a chance against him at the derby distance.  Remember also Real Quiet and Victory Gallop.  The latter was outclassed in the Derby but caught and beat the Derby winner in the final bob of the head in the 12 furlong Belmont.  Nuff said?

Ranagulzion 09 Mar 2009 7:54 PM

After the Gotham on Saturday, Mr. Fantasy's owner expressed doubt about continuing on the Derby trail.  I guess with a couple of days to think it over, he's decided to continue.  Mr. Fantasy scored a 98 Beyer figure for the race, a new career high.  As impressive as his previous race looked at the same distance, in defeat in the Gotham he would have defeated himself by 5 lengths!  I Want Revenge ran an incredible 113 Beyer (his previous figures were 72-64-90-81-86-92).  Was it one freak race?  Can Mr. Fantasy make a similar move forward? He's only had 3 races and his figures are 97-93-98.

Sure, Saturday's race stung.  But Mr. Fantasy's Beyers numbers are outstanding for a very young 3-year old.  How many other Derby contenders are posting mid to upper 90's in their first 3 races?

Odds are that IWR will bounce backwards off the 113 and may never repeat it again, while Mr. Fantasy moves forward into the 108-112 range.

Alan 09 Mar 2009 8:37 PM

Slew" Lol. I cant give up now man! I got one more chance with my boy. And BTW, stop stealing my lines :)

jshandler 09 Mar 2009 8:52 PM

Lol... I guess when Imperial Council runs down I Want Revenge in the Wood everyone is going to say IWF bounced.  It wasn't a bounce its Shug getting his horse ready to run his best in May.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 9:08 PM

Rocker- LMAO- Seriously! You crack me up sharing your pearls of wisdom 'even if it knocks down your prices Derby day'- that is too rich!  Firstly, Charistmatic lost the majority of his races and was off the board 6 times out of his 17 races- your boy didn't pick him to win and pointed out after the fact why he looked good- LMAO.....he won in a year that had a HORRIBLE crop of horses and had the favorite entry won- they would have paid around $12- that is how all over people were.  

When you read Keppler's 'Betting the Derby' book- LMAO- I hope it was after the Derby as your man right here on Bloodhorse picked;

1) PYRO

2) ADRIANO

3) Z FORTUNE

LMAO- Your man couldn't even crack the top 7- it only goes to show you that in the end- make your own decision- the supposed experts have lost just as many times as they have won- and thks for the post- I promise not to listen so your odds won't be hurt.

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 9:08 PM

I love watching horse racing and I learn a ton by reading these posts. I love the lively discussion on J.Shandler's blog. You all have such distinct points of view and you "don't take any prisoners" when you express them, which makes reading them a lot of fun. I think it's too soon to tell personally. Let's see how the Wood shakes out. However, IWR was pretty impressive for one race.  Then it's a crap shoot.

Paula Higgins 09 Mar 2009 9:19 PM

Householder, reviewed your post carefully and I have some suggested corrections and some information:

“The Derby Winner has already won a graded stakes race”

Since the KD has not yet been contested, I would recommend adding ‘likely’ to the quote above.

“The Derby Winner will have finished 1,2, or 3 in their final prep”

Remember Giacomo was fourth in his final prep.

“A lot of Dirt Horses hate the KY Derby as well.”

Totally Agree. However, those who have done well on the track tend to have a slight advantage.

“Good synthetic horses run well on dirt, great ones dominate”

The synthetics have only been around for about three to four year. Name the good synthetic horse that has dominated on dirt. Versatile horses run on any surface.

“The best trip not the best horse wins the derby”

I have seen this statement before and I am not sure I understand what it really means. What determines the best trip? Bob Black Jack was rated on the lead in the 2008 Derby. He had a problem free trip yet he lost. Big Brown from his 20 post was kept out of trouble close to the lead and won. Compare BB’s victory to that of Giacomo. Giacomo came from last and had to maneuver through traffic then guided wide for his victory. Are implying that he had the best trip?

We must not forget that the Kentucky Derby is not an ordinary race and conventional rules do not always apply. Triple Crown winner Sir Barton made 6 starts at two with zero victories. He made his 3YO debut as a maiden in the Derby. He was suppose to be a rabbit for his stable mate Billy Kelly and made all to win by five lengths. The great filly Regret though not a maiden, had her 3YO debut in the Derby that she won. In 2005 Giacomo won the Derby with only a maiden victory to his credit. All the point you have made above are relevant but the Derby will find a way to render them irrelevant.

m palmer 09 Mar 2009 9:23 PM

I don't think comparing Santa Anita Byers to east coast dirt is entirely informative (and particularly not the "eccentric" inner track).  Not only comparing horses, but in looking at a horse's history.  I would speculate that IWR did not have THAT big of a jump.

Kat 09 Mar 2009 9:24 PM

gw_bushwacker

I agree, that's all I'm saying that there are way too many variables for any sane person to make such a claim. Whose to say there won't be another subpar crop and one very good horse who takes the same route. Highly improbable, maybe, but you can't say never again w/o looking a bit "special." The beautiful thing about this sport is the unknown and unexpected, I mean who had Giacomo over Afleet Alex, Bandini, Bellamy Road etc.  Anyway I'm split between Fresian Fire and PoTN, they have all the right ingredients, but a part of me feels the derby winner is currently under the radar. IWR was extremely impressive and if he doesn't regress in the WM then look out. Old Fashioned is a good horse but I don't think can handle 1 1/4. I'm not sold on Dunkirk at all I'm just hoping all. After 2008, I just appreciate the fact there are many talented and gifted horses, and hope all derby runners finish safe and sound.

Chris 09 Mar 2009 9:28 PM

Slew- For the past 7 years- the Santa Anita Derby winner has been basically........useless in the Kentucky Derby! That won't change this year.

In regards to the lists- it's all in good fun if you enjoy it and have the free time- my point is- the Derby isn't this Sat so I would rather look at the horses in action as compared to speculation.

The LA Derby is probably the hardest Louisiana Derby I have ever looked at- in my opinion- anyone of six horses can win that race and it wouldn't surprise me.

This weekend is also the Tampa Bay Derby and The Rebel.

Robert H 09 Mar 2009 9:39 PM

Slew.em.All, Big Brown entered the Derby with only three starts. He displayed enormous ability but was still an unknown quantity. He was sent off as the favorite and won. Quality Road in three starts has displayed more ability than IWR. What is so wrong about my statement?

Big Brown won his second race at GP at a mile gearing down in 1:35 and change. His trainer and rider were not suspicious of the time. They both canceled their planned visit to Dubai to prepare BB for the derby. The celebrated Dunkirk has not gone near 1:35 for a mile, yet he is in the top 5 of most derby list. QR sire has proven himself to be a classic sire and it appears he has another good one.

City Style won his debut on dirt. His pedigree does not reflect potential turf dominance. John Henry has taught me not to underestimate geldings as they are only focused on running. This horse has been out running his pedigree and I do not ignore these little things. He did not belong in the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile Turf based on past performance. In spite of his dismissal at long odds, he got beat by only 21/2 lengths by two extremely good Europeans, If Donativum was heading to the derby would you dismiss him as turf/synthetic horse? The KD is not your usual horse race and consequently anything is possible.

Coldfacts 09 Mar 2009 9:47 PM

I Want Revenge looks to be the real deal. The way he drew away from Mr. Fantasy in the final furlong was a thing of beauty. It looks like Stephen Got Even has another good one. Not to plug Twin Spires.com but when TVG and HRTV dropped the feed from the Big A it was carried by them. Good luck to all.

Gary 09 Mar 2009 9:53 PM

Nice recap Jason since I had zero shot of watching any racing on the weekend. Do you think Mr.F was a bit green or hung or do you still go by rider error? Thanks again for the imfo.

Wanda 09 Mar 2009 10:26 PM

Chris let me remind you and others that Taqarub, Haynesfield, Mr. Fantasy, and I Want Revenge were all dominate on the inner dirt at Aqueduct.  How does that transfer to Churchill is the question.  Gotham winners do not win the Derby.  Winning the Wood would mean more and the horse that does that will be considered a Derby favorite.  It would be interesting to see Pioneer of the Nile, Quality Road, and Imperial Council lining up in the Derby after each of their G1 wins.  The wild card ? Remember Rachel Alexandra has more Churchill experience than any other horse on the trail and Desert Party and Vineyard still have tickets to the party.  The Derby favorite this year could be 5 to 1 at best.

Draynay 09 Mar 2009 10:28 PM

Jason: LMFAO! Glad to see that some still have a sense of humor.And you claiming that I'm stealing your lines is BUSH LEAGUE! hear that. BUSH LEAGUE!

So I hear your boy might run in the Illinois Derby.Well,I guess if they still think he has a shot in the KY Derby,speed favoring Hawthorne is the perfect setting to try and take em' wire to wire.Remember Recapturetheglory last year? I'm just saying Bro.

Draynay,that's not a fair assessment. 1)She's facing a weak bunch of fillies who won't pressure her up front,therefore she should be full of run down the stretch.= a solid final time. 2)The LA Derby came up a lot tougher than I first thought,these guys are gonna' go at it from the get go.Expect solid early splits and naturally a bit slower final 1/4.= an ok/average final time.. Until Rachel takes on the boys,it's all speculative analyzing,same deal with my Girl Stardom Bound..War Echoe would've gave RA a nice run for her money though..(anybody know what happened to her?).. Friesan Fire better have on his Track shoes for this one.Still,he wins this one for fun.

Slew.em.All 09 Mar 2009 10:32 PM

Slew, the Mr. Fantasy 75-1 Future wager looks damned good to me, provided Finley chooses the Illinois Derby for his next prep.

Running at a new track track against different opponents makes the most sense.  You don't want him seeing IWR again immediately.  Allow the horse to freshen his mind, experience new surroundings (he needs to for the Derby anyway), with a better opportunity to take the winners share of the purse.

From there, you know Mr. Fantasy will be in the Derby mix turning for home and that 75-1 Future looks like a steal.

Alan 09 Mar 2009 10:38 PM

Robert H, there is a horse in the LA Derby that may win at a big price. I am positive he is not included in your six. His last race was in the Risen Star which he entered off a slow maiden victory and was only beaten 33/4 lengths. Most of the horses he faced were multiple winners and had run in graded races. His Maiden Special victory was more like a Maiden Claimer with fraction of 24, 49, 1:14 final time 1:41. He had no business finishing 33/4L behind ML favorite for the LA derby Friesen Fie.  It is worthwhile noting that it was the first time he was drawn on the inside. In his five races preceding the Risen Start, the closest to the rails he was drawn was sixth. He normally close with a wide run. Have a look at him he could be a good exotic play.

Coldfacts 09 Mar 2009 10:50 PM

Robert H ... I'm glad I made you laugh.. I should of done more research before posting. I didn't realize he picked Pyro, Adriano, Z Fortune.. My apologies...

Apparently he didn't want to follow what he is preaching. Myself last year did hit the tri and just missed the super.. Pyro & Adriano never reached 100 beyer in their 3 races before the derby.  Z fortune had 102 from the ArkDerby but he wasn't gaining on Gayego and was spinning his wheels running second. So I apologize for making him sound like a real expert.

I do belive though in the theory about having  at least 100 + beyer in one of their 3 prior races. I prefer the 2 races coming in the derby that they have 103 + Im not saying that the horse with the highest beyer coming in the derby is your winner point in case Bellamy Road but all im trying to do is eliminate all the horses that don't fit what I say...

All the horses who only seem to run 98 and below they are not horses I consider to win the derby.. Some Can be used underneath like Dennis of Cork who ran 3rd last year at 27-1... He showed promise but David Carroll messed his schedule

up...

I have the print out of the past performance from the last 18 winners  of the Kentucky derby and most of them have back to back 100+ beyers besides Giacomo and Sea Hero. Street Sense You can throw out the Blue Grass which ended up being a work out for him even though he didn't win...

Which Brings me to my next thing I would like to know what everyone's opinion about the Blue Grass... I personally feel that since it has gone to synthetic that this is  the most useless prep race.

The short history will show that the winners of this race since the switch to synthetic are purely grass horses or horses that obviously love the synthetic surface. Who should we begin with... Domincan never won on the dirt but was 2 for 2 on the synthetic coming into the 07 Blue Grass   and he just nipped Street Sense at the wire in that race and then in the Derby ran 11th Zanjero 3rd in the Blue Grass 12th in the Derby...

Last year Monba another horse that likes the synthetic surface  wins the race over his stable mate  CowboyCal who at the time was purely turf.

As we all have come to learn most of the horses that like turf like the synthetic or poly track...  The top 2 finishers in the Blue Grass run  20th and 9th... I almost left out Adriano who was mostly turf and  then he won the Lanes End  but he could only beat Monba in the derby field finishing 19th...

I would love for someone to disagree with me and tell me why the Blue Grass is still a major derby prep besides its a Grade 1 and the earnings.

Rocker 09 Mar 2009 11:02 PM

Wanda: I dont think Garcia gave a bad ride at all; not until the last second. Mr. Fantasy tired badly, that was evident. It was his third start and he took all the heat. He'll be better next race when having something to run at.

jshandler 09 Mar 2009 11:54 PM

Dray: if Pioneerof the Nile wins the SA Derby and Old Fashioned wins his next two (or even the Arkansas Derby), no way they go off at 5-1. More like 5-2 and 3-1

jshandler 09 Mar 2009 11:56 PM

In all fairness, The Gotham was a one turn mile for many years and was generally a race won by sprinters/milers without any aspirations of running in the Derby, that said Secretariat is the only horse to win the Gotham and obviously the Derby. However it has produced classic winners like Red Bullet, Easy Goer, Native Dancer, etc.  If recent history is any indication, having 2 prep races and win (Barbaro, Street Sense, Big Brown) or running off 5-8 week layoffs that nothing is absolute and anything can change.

Chris 10 Mar 2009 1:00 AM

'tis nearly 3am in PA now. I enjoyed the logic and the feelings of horse lovers and betters/handicappers ALL. But What happened to DUNKIRK etc. A tough dude here. 7 weeks of FUN ahead and the BEYER will equal +/-  50% of the entries racing strength/power rating for some, here. TELL ME WHY, Please.    v

VANDAL PA 10 Mar 2009 2:54 AM

Mr Fantasy seems a perfect fit for the Illinois Derby, a race I hope to attend. Hawhtorne does tend to favor speed in the early spring and, most imprtantly, Aqueduct shippers have had alot of success at Hawthorne and, in particular, the Illinois Derby.  

    Sweetnorthernsaint and Cowtown Cat came out of the Gotham in 2006 and 2007 to win the Illinois Derby. I really dont think Mr Fantasy is capable of beating I Want Revenge or Imperial Council in the Wood, and the Illinois Derby offers $300,000 to the winner.

   I just dont understand why fans of Stardom Bound are so insistent on her running in the Kentucky Derby. Yes, a filly had success last year, but that's very rare. Think of all the great female racehorses there have been over the last 25 years. How many ran in the Derby? Stardom Bound doesnt have to prove her greatness by running in the Derby. Just keep on winning grade 1 races like the Ashland or Kentucky Oaks. If Frankel and Iavorone are correct, and she just isnt up to facing top class male competition, pushing her into the Santa Anita Derby and/or Kentucky Derby could throw her entire season off.  Yes, she was amazingly courageous in the SA Oaks, and yes her trip was insane, but it just doesnt appear she has improved enough over the winter to be put on the Triple Crown trail. And there is nothing wrong with that. She doesnt have to beat males for me to recognize her as a true champion.

GunBow 10 Mar 2009 4:00 AM

I Want Revenge ran a suspect Beyer! He beat little/was the class by far--was hard ridden through the last 1/8...not sure ya wanna do that....I recall Smarty's Preakness....Cannot wait for Pamplemousse to dirt--think he'll win Derby.....I'll try to beat that Beyer# witha real good racehorse!

Matthew W 10 Mar 2009 4:26 AM

Jason NOT if IWR wins Wood by five/112 Beyer....

Matthew W 10 Mar 2009 4:27 AM

Ranagulzion:

Stewart Elliot also eased up on Smarty in the last furlong because he thought the Belmont was his and didn't relize that there was another horse coming on his outside. Had he kept riding Smarty we'd have twelve triple crown winners by now. When Elliot finally started urging again it was to late, plust after all the pace pressure he faced, Smarty was too tired. That loss is to be blamed on the jockey for letting up, Smarty otherwise would've won.

LDP 10 Mar 2009 8:12 AM

Jason ... 5-2 LOL... you are out of your mind.  Old Fashioned is not going off at 5-2.  Not with Pioneer of the Nile, Quality Road, Imperial Council, and Desert Party in the mix. For the record should the track come up wet on Derby Day I am betting my house on Desert Party.  New York and California are NOT going to be backing Old Fashioned.  By the way, is Old Fashioned EVER going to take on a Stakes winner ? He looks really good against allowance horses but so did Mr. Fantasy.

Draynay 10 Mar 2009 8:28 AM

Jason, I admire you for sticking to your guns..personally I don't see 'Fantasy being a 2 turn runner, but after 45 years of "chasing" that sawbuck...good luck with that! Coldfact...don't leave out[as a native] Funny Cide in your gelding arguement. I also had high hopes for Prairie Bayou, until he went down. Dray...I realize nothing is universal, but there was a colt in the early '70's who won the Gotham and faired "ok" in the triple crown!

nickie 10 Mar 2009 11:15 AM

I prefer Mr. Fantasy making his next start in the Illinois Derby.  Even though he lost the Gotham, he

ran a career best 98 Beyer in only his 3rd race... giving him figures of 97-93-98.  Putting that in perspective, Mr. Fantasy would have beaten himself by 5 lengths in his last race at the same distance.  He shaved nearly a second off of his finishing time.  I Want Revenge ran a mind-boggling 113, after figures of 72-64-90-81-86-92.  What are the odds of IWR repeating that figure?  More realistically, he's in the 100-105 range.  Mr. F had zero stakes experience, while IWR was running in his 3rd graded stakes.  Look for Garcia and Finley to approach the next race with a different plan, now that they've gotten some stakes experience w/Mr. F.  If Mr. F can move forward into the low 100's and win/place his next race, that would set him up perfect to jump into the 107-109 range and take the Derby.  You don't want him running his eyeballs out in the next race and then regressing in the Derby.  That's probably what we'll see happen to IWR following his 113 explosion.

The reason I want Mr. F entering the Illinois Derby is to gain experience on another track, get used to the traveling that the Derby would require, and to avoid seeing IWR immediately after that last battle.  It would require expending more energy to win the Wood than winning the Illinois.  It may only take a level performance for Mr. F to take the Illinois (and required graded stakes money) before a big bounce forward in time for the Kentucky Derby.

Alan 10 Mar 2009 11:32 AM

Coldfacts said; 'Robert H, there is a horse in the LA Derby that may win at a big price.....a slow maiden victory'

Cold, Nowhere is going-nowhere! lol. He has had 6 different jocks in 6 races, and although I did look at him previously- his record still says to be that his last was the best he will ever do. He had a dream trip compared to Giant Oak, Flying Pegasus and Soul Warrior. It was his trip that got him 4th; however, at the end he was going nowhere (no pun intended).

If you want a large price- watch the Risen Star and Soul Warrior- three times in that race he showed he has a ton of heart and keep coming long after the majority of horses crop would have stopped-Soul Warrior impressed me that day and he did it all in only his 3rd race.

I think that Flying Pegasus will win the race; but you have so many options betting wise.  Besides Soul Warrior, you have a horse named Patena who beat Hooh Why- a filly that was a hair from defeating Stardom Bound, then against FF he closed strongly off slow fractions in his first start in this country. That is another reason why I look at FF a being a huge favorite ready to lose.

In regards to Patena- look at how he ran in his first race here- look at how Hooh Why ran- if he improves- he wins at a big price.

To that- add Papa Clem- if he takes to the surface- he trounces this bunch- BUT- Hollywood is a much different track compared to Santa Anita- and Clem didn't take to HW and notice Stute always works him out at SA- ALWAYS...WELL....Louisiana Downs isn't Santa Anita. Papa will get a ton of money and I will pass on him- but he has a chance.

Then you can throw in Giant Oak-I think he would love more distance; however, the horse has a great deal of potential- especially when you consider his only two 'bad' races had him blocked during key moments and if you watch closely-he was making up a ton of ground at the end of the Risen Star.

I don't like FF to win this race. I know he is high on all the Derby lists- I know he loves the track- I know he is the heavy favorite- and I'm sure everybody loves him- BUT in his last he got the best trip of all- clear of the huge field he avoided all the problems that hurt other horses that day-and in my opinion- he wasn't the best horse; however- he had the best trip.

I really like Flying Pegasus because I look at the Belmont Futurity as a key race. Pegasus also had a nightmare trip last out- lost a ton of ground and still was right there at the end. For some reason- FP never gets support at the windows.

In regards to the Rebel- Silver City is a fast horse- I don't see him getting 8 1/2 fur since he hasn't shown he can relax, in my opinion, the only horse there with a chance to beat Old Fashioned is Flat Out.

Flat Out was distanced at the start of the Southwest and came charging back fastest of all at the end and only missed 3rd by a neck.

Louisiana Derby- Flying Pegasus

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 11:46 AM

Rocker-I would love for someone to disagree with me and tell me why the Blue Grass is still a major derby prep besides its a Grade 1 and the earnings>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rock- You are being way too hard on the Bluegrass- go pick on the SA Derby. Still, to answer your question, the tradition of the race and the importance of KY in racing will always keep that prep in the 'elite' status.

Looking at it from the horses who have run- unless I remember wrong just the past few years alone you have had Street Sense winning the Derby, Closing Arguement was 2nd, Lion Heart was 2nd,Peace Rules was 3rd etc etc.

When you look back at the history of the race you will find Spectacular Bid, Gato Del Sol, Unbridled, Summer Squall, Alydar, Praire Bayou, Holy Bull, Skip Away, Alysheba and I'm sure plenty of others I can no longer remember.    

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 12:05 PM

Robert: Did u say Patena will be a big price? He'll be no worse than the second choice. He's 7-2 on ML

jshandler 10 Mar 2009 1:05 PM

JS: I didn't check the odds on the race. I figured Patena again would be 5-1 again.  

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 1:39 PM

Giant Oak will be tough

jshandler 10 Mar 2009 1:54 PM

JA- My problem with Giant Oak is that Chris Block almost skipped this race but couldn't find anything. He said; "I love the surface here, but it's a narrow track, and with another large field we might run into the same kinds of problems"

That doesn't inspire my confidence.  

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 2:32 PM

Robert: I just got off a conference call with Block. He couldnt be happier with Giant Oak. He is every confident. His comment about the track was that Giant Oak likes it but b/c it's narrow they must stay out of trouble. If he doesn stay out of trouble, watch out. He is expecting big things from Giant Oak. Trust me on that. He was actually looking for nine furlongs b/c the colt can run all day. That was why they almost skipped it. Plus, Giant Oak missed a work with mouth issues, but it is behind him.

jshandler 10 Mar 2009 2:38 PM

LDP I shouldn't even respond to this because it is off topic BUT Stewart Elliot absolutely didn't ease up on Smarty Jones ---He was riding hard and did what every experienced rider would do in a situation like that and moved SJ out so he could see Birdstone coming and maybe outgame him. He was well aware that his horse was tiring---Watch the race again!

These blogs are fun-it is interesting to see competition between those who actually know something about the game and those who don't know anything arguing their positions. Also its interesting those with computer facts that couldn't tell a filly from a colt without raising the tail or a D bit from a ring bit.

marc W 10 Mar 2009 2:39 PM

BTW- FF has these races set up perfectly! Larry Jones should have  these long shots set the race up everytime for Friesan Fire since that is how it seems to be going these days.  

With the huge field, traffic problems, nightmare trips and crazy odds in the Risen Star- I feel like this is the Preakness we are doing this week and the Risen Star was the Derby.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 2:44 PM

jshandler--Why Graham? Not that he isn't a good rider and knows the track better-Prado bails? Prado is only looking at a non stakes 2 time winner as his mount, you would think he'd keep his options open not to mention the big purse.

As mentioned a number of times times I believe the Derby winner is coming from here or Oaklawn--at least at this stage of the game.

marc W 10 Mar 2009 3:13 PM

What is funny here JS is that I agree with you in regard to Giant Oak- and even though Alvarado jumped off- Flying Pegasus is a damn good horse, yet what cracks me up is that both Ellis Star and Dick Downey tossed them from the race- not even putting either in the top 4 at the end. Ellis is in love with Papa Clem.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 3:15 PM

Marc W: Graham is Giant Oak's regular excercise rider. And he knows that track very well. He's a good choice. The trainer said Giant Oak responds well to Graham.

jshandler 10 Mar 2009 3:20 PM

Graham said. "He's a good horse. He's coming into himself and they better be ready."

I do laugh at how they all sing the praises of Giant at the windows and send him off the favorite in the Risen (Kentucky Derby) Star, now suddenly looking at Ellis and Equibase- Giant is the plague and will be lucky to get 5th.  

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 3:57 PM

At first I thought Friesan Fire was more hype than anything,but ever since they put the blinkers on him he's been nothing but lights-out.As I said earlier,the La.Derby came up pretty tough.

Still,FF is just starting to get really good.In the Lecomte they could've went around the track once more and Patena still wouldn't have caught him.Same thing in the Risen Star,he's just better than these same opponents he'll face in the La.Derby...Patena is an unknown so far.Is he 100% healthy after his "ailments"?  Giant Oak is definitely more hype than anything,and always has excuses.He really wasn't making an impact last race,it was him passing tired horses that's all.  And Flying Pegasus?..yeah he ran ok in the Risen Star off a lay-off,but look for him to bounce! He's a suckers' bet..Nowhere to Hide is intriguing,not saying he'll win but I was impressed by his run in the Risen Star after just breaking his maiden.Is obviously improving and he also had a troubled trip if people wanna' go that route.Nick Zito doesn't race around these parts,so for him to have a horse in the La.Derby?.Watch Out! He could've easily kept him in Fla. or NY.

Rodney Dangerfield..err..Friesan Fire should take this race handily again. But,I'm sure we'll be hearing more excuses concerning the horses behind him.(YAWN)..look,if those horses are having "trouble" in a 9-12 horse field,what do you expect in the KY Derby?  Friesen Fire makes his own race,while these others seem to make their own trouble.Class prevails once again.

Slew.em.All 10 Mar 2009 4:16 PM

Interesting how two Giant's Causeway horses won maiden's in 40k races on Sunday- First Passage and Magical Affair at Gulfstream. And Graham almost won the Lacomb on a 37-1 shot that weakened just before the wire.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 4:24 PM

Oh yeah,I completely forgot about Papa Clem.He's the only one with a realistic shot of beating FF,to me.

His RB Lewis agaist POTN and IWR was very good.He's trying dirt for the 1st time and should have no problem with the surface(see IWR).

All these people bashing the SA Derby winners' recent showings in the KY Derby,that's all fine and dandy. But I'll say this much. The Top Cali horses are Very Good this Year.

Slew.em.All 10 Mar 2009 4:33 PM

Robert:  was does that have to do with anything?..I guess if you're trying to reach for some invisible correlations,or..something.

Slew.em.All 10 Mar 2009 4:46 PM

Robert... I don't think i'm being hard on the Blue Grass. However you're right I should have included the Santa Anita Derby and the rest of all the derby preps run on synthetic.

I understand the Blue Grass has history and before it went to synthetic it was a key race, You could say that for the Santa Anita Derby as well.

What i'm saying that since it has gone to synthetic it really has produce nothing when it comes to the derby..

Yes, Street Sense rand second in that race 2 years ago and went on to win the derby but honestly you cant tell me you think that race was the key to him winning the derby. He was the best  horse going into that race and  That was his second race back and that  race was more of a live race work out for Street Sense. Considering what he had done at Churchill previously winning the BCJV. His connections had already said he loved the surface at Churchill. All I got out of that race was my win price was going to float up because he lost in the Blue Grass Street Sense was going from 8/5 as your derby favorite to 9/2 almost 5-1 favorite as he paid $11.80

As far as the history  to  the Blue Grass BEFORE THE SWITCH TO SYNTHETIC your absolutely right it had meaning towards the derby Closing Arguement was 2nd, Lion Heart was 2nd,Peace Rules was 3rd etc etc.

But as of 2007 it and the rest of the preps on synthetic have meant NOTHING!....

Robert says....You are being way too hard on the Bluegrass- go pick on the SA Derby. Still, to answer your question, the tradition of the race and the importance of KY in racing will always keep that prep in the 'elite' status.

It may be important to KY racing and the people of KY and it will still have its elite status but in the long run it will lose its shine and importance to what it means as a IMPORTANT prep race to the derby if it keeps producing these  awful results of horses doing well in that race and finishing in the back of the derby..

Rocker 10 Mar 2009 5:37 PM

Slew.em.All:  I admit that Friesan Fire is gonna be one tough cookie in the La. Derby but Flying Pegasus and Terrain (two top 2yos of last season)will test his mettle.  Flying Pegasus in a mild upset is my fancy.  This is a very interesting race.  

Ranagulzion 10 Mar 2009 5:41 PM

Slew-  Had they run another lap around the track as you stated in the Lecomte-it should be obvious to anybody that your boy FF would have lost since you brought it up.

He would have been looking for another 70-1 shot (Or 250-1 as in the Risen Star) to set it up for him. In regards to bouncing- your boy Friesan Fire has had no break in his campaign whatsoever since last summer and has been starting to run rank-hell- he isn't even 3 yet.

Friesan Fire will not run three winning races in a row, nor will we see him again after this race if they intend to run him at Churchill and expect to have something left-in my opinion.

There is a reason why horses that have won the Louisiana Triple never do anything else- as a matter of fact- the last horse to attempt it was  Fly Cry in 1994- he was the heavy favorite and finished off the board.

Dixieland Heat did it in 1993- then after that- DH was used up for the rest of the year and DID NOTHING.

Flying Pegasus was 'okay' in the Risen Star- LMAO- seriously- your a rip! It was his first try around two turns- and it was also his first race beyond 7 fur since he beat your boy FF in the Futurity.

I do think that the Louisiana Derby isn't a good fit for him as I have not been thrilled with how Nicks talks about the race.

In regards to your final comment- I would have expected you know better since each race is a puzzle- not a sideshow for excuses.

I didn't pick anything in the Risen Star- and you are new to the FF bandwagon- which is fine; however, the Risen Star is what it is-see what you want; however, spare me the comedy antics as your horse is the favorite- he is on every top 10 list and at the moment- the betting public is singing his praises- so he is no Rodney.

Flying Pegasus would be Rodney is you want to be comical as he never gets support at the windows.

Looking at Giant Oak is like looking at I Want Revenge- I told everybody here to discount the SA races as the Hollywood surface was the most similar to dirt and be clearly didn't like SA- when you do that- Revenge becomes the clear winner.

Look at Giant- take out the Bourbon and using the Risen Star for what it is- a showcase for his talent and desire to win and he becomes a clear choice in my book. And it was the DRF that said he was in an impossible position and can't be blamed for his showing on the turf.

I said at the top he will be the heavy favorite- nothing has changed. We aren't talking about picking a winner of the Risen Star

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 6:09 PM

Robert:  was does that have to do with anything?..I guess if you're trying to reach for some invisible correlations,or..something>>>>>>>>

Is it that time of the month Slewpy, or are you always playing the clown here? Is it really so easy to get you steamed just talking about the SA Derby- hilarious! Really!  

As for the rip at my above comment-I spoke with Bernie Hettel (Not that you know who he is) just to see what he thought about the GP Handicap- he mentioned it to me- I passed it on- take it for whatever you want.  

Robert 10 Mar 2009 6:22 PM

Oh yeah,I completely forgot about SlewePapa Clem.He's the only one with a realistic shot of beating FF,to me.

His RB Lewis agaist POTN and IWR was very good.He's trying dirt for the 1st time and should have no problem with the surface(see IWR).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Papa Clem tried Hollywood twice and was off the board both times- IWR loved Hollywood and didn't like Santa Anita- so it is reversed. Clem is a sucker bet 'as you say' as all his LIFETIME works and best have only been in one place- Santa Anita.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 6:32 PM

Very interesting posts. I watched the replay of the Gotham and was very impressed but I still think everything is up in the air.  There are horses out there that haven't peaked yet and there is the question of some of the CA horses being synthetic specialist but certainly not IWR!  This is turning out to be a much more interesting year than last year.

BTW, we have had some good horses come out of CA who won the Derby.  Not recently, but we'll do it again!

Monica V 10 Mar 2009 7:31 PM

Marc

   You can think what you want. Elliot was the reason for Smarty's loss, nobody else, and nothing you say will change that for me. He went to the lead with five furlongs to go with two other horses breathing down his neck, stupid. Then though he was urging him, he wasn't having smarty running full out. That race could be run ten times over and in every one of those times smarty would've been the next triple crown winner. Elliot lost that race for one reason or another, and nothing for me will ever change my oppinion on that matter.

LDP 10 Mar 2009 8:44 PM

Robert H, Nowhere To Hide has the best time for a mile in the field. An outside post is the only thing he needs to win. Giant Oak will complete the perfecta.

Coldfacts 10 Mar 2009 9:30 PM

<<<<<<<<That was his second race back and that  race was more of a live race work out for Street Sense.>>>>>>

My point on the tradition is that the Bluegrass will never be lowered from G-1 status as it is dear to the Bluegrass State and is probably the most popular race run at Keeneland based on the crowd totals there every year-that was the first point. That being said- stick with the point that you hate polytrack- don't get into things like;   <<<<<That was his second race back and that  race was more of a live race work out for Street Sense>>>>

If you think SS wasn't all out at the end trying to win that race- and wasn't entered to win- and the connections/jockey didn't want the $$$ and trophy- you're fooling yourself- You must know something I dont.

I don't remember anybody around him ever claiming that they didn't try and win the Bluegrass- it sure looked that way to me.

As for the great Street Sense- he loved Churchill- Churchill loved him! Take him out of Churchill and the rest is history- I hope you never bet on him after that- you would have ended up broke! I will say that horse racing almost lost me as a fan after all these years after they ran the Breeders Cup in 2007 in a sea of water at Monmouth because it would have cost too much to delay/cancel.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 9:55 PM

I agree about synthetics making it harder for a Cali horse to win The Derby---But it's way too early to blanket SoCal as a "non-player" in The Triple Crown....How many Santa Anita Derby's have been run on synthetic--ONE?? And that guy won The Travers which in my book is the #2 race in NA for 3yolds....

Matthew W 10 Mar 2009 10:10 PM

Cold- Firstly- if you like No Place To Hide- bet him. In regards to my opinion- as he was all out in his last and had a perfect trip-ahead of horses that were better than he was- as far as I'm concerned- that is as good as it gets.

Lightening ain't striking twice. FF isn't tracking his usual set up (70-1) or (250-1) horse, and No Place is going........no place. FF is going to take a hard fall- so will two of the heavy favorites before Derby Day.

Last year; War Pass lost the Wood at 4-5, Pyro lost the BGrass at 1-1, Z Fortune was off the board in the Rebel at 3-5, War Pass was 1-20 in the TB Derby and off the board, El Gato Malo was 3-5 lost the Sham, Z Humor was off the board at 6-5 in the Sam Davis.............My point is- before the Derby, people get bent out of shape on some of these horses thinking they are backing the next 'star'. When you look at the rankings just before those defeats- they go hand in hand with how heavily the above horses were bet. All of them were highly regarded- had a ton of money come in and flopped.

Favorites were also off the board in the Florida Derby, Lexington and Illinois Derby, I suspect (LOL) that we have a far better three year old division this year.

Nothing could be as bad as the crop we had last year.  

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 10:22 PM

LDP- Smarty Jones was the third straight Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner, and sixth in the past eight years (at that time) to fall short in the 1 1/2-mile Belmont- he lost- you don't own him- get over it.

I was there that day and the NY fans were a disgrace. Edgar Prado was loudly booed in the winner's circle as all the $ 2 Smarty ticket holders were pissy they didn't get to frame the losing ticket as it would have no point.  

This matter has been talked to death in the past.In regards to being bitter or angry- neither Servis nor Chapman ever blamed Elliot, so if you want- you can blame him.

Birdstone showed it was no fluke as he won his next start- the Travers Stakes. Amazing how all the good work the man did riding Smarty in all those wins- guiding him true each time- especially when he was rank in the Count Fleet, especially when he wasn't favored against Purge in the Rebel.....blaming him for losing the Belmont is idiotic.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 10:47 PM

I remember Col John- won the SA Derby- then was off the board in 3 of his next 5 starts.

Oh yeah- I almost forgot- the only race he did ever win after the SA Derby was the Travers against Mambo in Seattle- BY ABOUT ONE INCH.  

Mambo was a Giant Killer. LOL

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 11:15 PM

2004 Belmont: I was there and almost everyone had left by the time Prado reached the Winners Circle.

Can't fault Elliot.  Everyone was gunning for him.  I question the rides of the other jockeys.

Alan 10 Mar 2009 11:20 PM

OMG Alan- yeah- people ran out of the track as it was a record crowd and 120,000 didn't come to see that result; however, the WC was full of plenty of people  screaming at Prado and it made all the NY papers.

Marylou Whitney seemed shaken by the booing as she clutched some flowers- I remember that as I took a picture. The police were even moving the big mouths away under threat of arrest.

I also remember it made the front page of USA today- her with some flowers and the incident was mentioned in detail.

Robert H 10 Mar 2009 11:55 PM

Bobbie: Funny how some people get all riled-up when someone disagrees with them.Reminds me of Jr.High..Awe,memories.

Anyways...How do you know FF can't win 3 races in a row.Did you speak to Larry Jones too.Or was it his Jockey,Groom,Hot-walker or some inside info? That statement is ridiculous.

Do you really think FP ran "great" in the Risen Star? He finished behind FF.He ran OK..FF won and his performance wasn't great either. Flying Pegasus was coming off a long break,going 2-turns,running more than 7f for the first time and had to run hard all the way..ingredients for a major bounce reaction. And last year's Futurity is last year's news.Friesan Fire is a whole new animal..You should know better Bobbie.

Jason,Steve Haskins and others have Friesan Fire rated below par.And all he's done is nothing but win his last 2 races,fairly easy.And some still don't take him seriously.If that's not a "rodney" syndrome,then what is..The betting public aren't idiots..well..anyways,FP has no support at the windows because he's a sucker's bet.Meaning he doesn't produce,get it.Running 2nd or 3rd is Not getting it done.

"Looking at Giant Oak is like looking at I Want Revenge"...What? In what way,shape or form genius.Your feeble explanation did nothing to clear that correlation up.

Don't worry,Papa Clem will have no trouble with the surface.Or was he bred for Synthetic surfaces only..Mel Stute has been permanently stabled @ Santa Anita for over 50 years.His horses go where he goes.No Problem.

I could give a rats a$$ even if you spoke to Bernie Mac.But What does 2 Giants Causeways breaking their maiden @ GP and Graham almost winning have ANYTHING to do with this subject.

Slew.em.All 10 Mar 2009 11:59 PM

In All that Jaw-Jacking you posted,did you say the La.

Derby is not a good fit for Flying Peglegg? Didn't you declare him the winner in an earlier post bobbie? AWW! don't tell me the Nicks' report swayed your utmost confidence in your boy.  Way to stick to your guns.You're all over the place now.

Slew.em.All 11 Mar 2009 12:21 AM

Why isn't The Arkansas Derby a Grade 1 yet? Some people ask why isn't The Bluegrass isn't a million dollars, and that's because The Bluegrass doesn't have to be a million dollars. It's the freakin Bluegrass Stakes that's why. I do think The Arkansas Derby should be a Grade 1 though and not because it's a million dollars, but because of the past 5 years and beyond, that's all. Also I do think Gayego won in Dubai just recently.

Ascot Park 11 Mar 2009 1:22 AM

LDP: Maybe Elliot didn't give Smarty the best ride he could have, but he was not caught napping in the stretch.  Of all the things Elliot could be criticized for in that race, I really don't think that is one of them.

Rocker- Perhaps the Blue Grass will lose favor among trainers prepping for the Derby now that Keeneland is synthetic. However, 2 years is not close to being enough time to draw any far reaching conclusions, particularly since, in 1 of those 2 years, the Blue Grass porduced the Derby winner.  With a $750,000 purse and grade 1 status, it will be able to draw at least a few quality horses. It is possible, though, that the Arkansas Derby, Wood, and Florida Derby maybe become much more important in comparison. A race fading from importance much faster than the Blue Grass is the Lane's End at Turfway.  

Robert: Street Sense was far from being just a Churchill horse. While he ran his best races at that track, he did follow is Derby with a bang-up run in the Preakness, losing to the wonderful Curlin by just a nose, and then swept the Jim Dandy and Travers. In the Kentucky Cup Classic, he ran 2nd to a quality horse, Hard Spun, who had a huge pace advantage; Hard Spun had already proven an affinity for Turfway, having won the Lane's End.  The only poor race Street Sense ever ran was in the Breeders Cup Classic.

GunBow 11 Mar 2009 2:07 AM

What do you all think about the overall quality of the Louisiana Derby? To borrow from Steve Haskin, does anyone see a "Wow" horse in this race? To be honest, I just don't see a true star in the field. Of course, 3 year olds at this time of the year can improve quickly. But does anyone see a horse turning in a I Want Revenge, Quality Road type performance that forces everyone to rethink their rankings? To use a college basketball analogy, the Louisiana Derby field reminds me of the Big Ten(with the possible exception of Michigan State). There's alot of solid, decent entries, but no one talented enough to make a serious run to the Final Four/Kentucky Derby winners circle.  

For all the criticism the California horses had received before the Gotham about low speed figures,the Louisiana horses haven't exactly been setting the world ablaze.  None of the top choices in the L. Derby have run faster than a 96 Beyer. For me, the Beyers of horses like Friesan Fire(96), Giant Oak(90), Patena(90),and Flying Pegasus(93)are much more troubling than the figs of the horses running over synthetics in California.

In general, I view Synthetic Beyers just like turf Beyers. For the same class level/the same level of performance, turf Beyers run 7-10 points lower than dirt Beyers. For example, the very best 3 year olds on turf this time of year run Beyers in the 92-98 range;  Beyers for the top dirt horses, as we have seen, will be much higher. Since synth races play out so much like turf races, synth Beyers are better interpretted using the turf scale rather than the dirt scale. A 96 on synthetic is quite good for a 3 year old this time of year; Einstein just got a 100 for the Big Cap and Raven's Pass ran a 110 for his Breeders Cup Classic.

As a rule of thumb when comparing dirt and synthetic horses, or analyzing how a horse moving from synth will Beyer on dirt, I usually add 7-10 points to the synthetic Beyers. Otherwise, it really is like apples and oranges. So, I would expect a horse that earns synth Beyers of 96 to run about a 103 on dirt; others have referred to this as the "dirt bump". The increase in  the Beyer from the "bump" does not reflect any improvement on dirt, it is simply the result of using a different scale. A horse equally good on synth and dirt will earn a 96 on synth and a 103 on dirt.

There is no guarantee, however, that a horse will be equally good on dirt as it is on synth, or vice cersa. A horse could be like IWR, and be about 8 lengths faster on dirt;IWR's synth Beyers translated into 99-102 dirt Beyers, but since he also happens to be 8 lengths better on dirt, the Gothan came up a 113(21 point jump).  

Back to the Louisiana Derby, Papa Clem's 94 Beyer on synth in the Lewis equates(by my estimation), into a 100-104 Beyer on dirt. That would make him the fastest horse in the race by a good deal. However, one cannot assume that just becaause IWR ran just as well on dirt as on synth(actually much better), that Papa Clem will. Others have brought up that Papa did not run well at Hollywood, and the general consensus in California (as I found out over the holidays) is that Hollywood is much more like dirt than SA. Yet, if he's only a few lengths slower on dirt, his adjusted Beyers still make him competitive.

For those with trouble giving synth Beyers a "bump" when comapring them to dirt Beyers, remember that it is a fairly well established rule of handicapping to make adjustments when comparing turf with dirt Beyers. For example, a 118 Beyer on turf is considered a stronger performance than a 118 Beyer on dirt. The highest turf Beyer ever recorded was a 119 by Miesque in the BC Mile, while there have been dirt Beyers into the 130s. No one suggests that because Ghostzapper ran a 128, he is 6 lengths faster than the fastest turf runner ever. Instead, it is recognized that the figs are from different scales, and not comparable at face value.  

GunBow 11 Mar 2009 3:10 AM

Robert,

    I'm not the one who needs to chill that would be you. I stated my oppinion, and i will stick to for as long as i live. I'm not going to feel sorry that you don't like it, and honestly, i know you aren't sorry if i don't agree with yours and thats fine, wanna know why? Well this is America buddy and everyone is allowed to have their own oppinion and right to express it. Also, I will admit i was not there, but i'm proud to say i was not one of those fans who trashed Birdstone, he's a nice horse. Now can you please chill and just let me have my own oppinion?

LDP 11 Mar 2009 8:11 AM

Alan,

   I understand what you mean, but i did rewatch that video, and Ellito had smarty sitting third or second for seven furlongs, then moved him to the lead with five furlongs left. In a mile and a half race you just don't do that, esspecially when you know you have a target on your back. Had he waited another two or three furlongs to make that move Smarty might've had enough left in the tank to hold off. As i said i'm not going to take anything away from the winner, he was a good horse and proved it in the travers, but if you ran the Belmont ten more times Smarty would win hands down.

LDP 11 Mar 2009 8:17 AM

Robert H, your postings reflect a lot of confidence in your evaluation system. It appears you are ignoring one important factor. The winner of a race is not determined prior to its running. If that were the case the contender with the best PP would be awarded the race. In 2004 Friends Lake a New York bred won the $1 million (Gl) Florida Derby Florida Derby at 37-1. On paper this regally bred son of A.P. Indy did not reflect the credentials to beat the field. Evaluators like yourself discounted his third place finish in the (Glll) Holy Bull because he was beaten by Second Of June a colt who was foaled the June 2nd and cost $7500. How could a colt sired by a former HOY, out of a broodmare that earned $1,011,953 and herself a daughter of a former HOY (Spend A Buck) be beaten by a $7500 purchase? (He had to be no good)Most of these 3YO normally show improvement after each race. It is alleged some improve over night. You are discounting NTH's 4th place finish in the Risen Star just as punters discounted Friends Lake's 3rd place finish in the Holy Bull. NTH is a well bred colt that was sired by an unbeaten champion out of an unraced broodmare that reflect inbreeding in her 3rd generation to the influential Buckpasser.

Dismiss him at your peril.

m palmer 11 Mar 2009 9:06 AM

LDP: Smarty's only flaw was he was not easy to rate, did not like to be headed...other riders knew that...in a one and one-half mile race you cannot run flat-out the entire race and beat other good horses...you said Elliot was urging him and Smarty wasn't running flat out...well, yes he was, he was running as fast as he could at that point after running so hard to begin with...meanwhile Birdstone just ran his even, steady race and since he was bred to love distance his efficient style won that long Belmont stretch...was he "better" than SJ, well, on that day he was...

PS I loved SJ since early in his career, but I bet Birdstone as the only horse that could beat SJ if SJ would not willingly rate in the Belmont.

da3hoss 11 Mar 2009 9:36 AM

OK I was a clocker and saw many horses and how they move and rate. SJ was as close to a push button horse as I ever saw. In that Belmont he wanted to go. Shoe got Gallant Man beat others say-yes he stood up-very briefly-and he wasn't a winner yet at that point but he still had a chance in the next furlong to win anyway. I thought Pat Day who was one of the best ever-people blame him for Easy Goer losing-I don't --but I think both Forty Niner and Menifee probably should have won their Derbies with better rides. I can be critical. If so they wouldn't have been sent to Turkey, and Japan and help the breed here. Birdstone a slight small horse was a lot better than given credit, he just couldn't stand up to a lot of racing. Smarty Jones had 5 at the 1/4 pole and was being called a superhorse, if he was he would have won. Had he rated that day -he would have. I have known a number of top flight riders personally. These 1100 pound animals don't always do what the 110lb jock wants. I had the pick 4 and 6 alive that day-I really did-I don't blame Elliot.

marc W 11 Mar 2009 12:09 PM

SLEWPIE> Bobbie: Funny how some people get all riled-up when someone disagrees with them.Reminds me of Jr.High..Awe,memories.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Robert says: Elliot did such good work on that horse-to blame him for losing the Belmont is just pathetic. In regards to Ms. Whitney- she was upset by the jeers- she even crumbled the flowers she had as she walked away in shock- it was even on the front page of USA Today.

SLEWPIE> Anyways...How do you know FF can't win 3 races in a row.Did you speak to Larry Jones too.Or was it his Jockey,Groom,Hot-walker or some inside info? That statement is ridiculous.>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Robert says: Do you practice being a hemorrhoid Slewpie, or is it a natural gift you nurture? If you are this hard up to be an IDIOT- you have some serious issues my friend. Maybe the Dr. Phil boards can help you? Perhaps you mistake me for a relative? The last horse to attempt the Louisiana Triple was Fly Cry in 1994- he was the heavy favorite and finished off the board. The year before that- Dixieland Heat won all three and for the next two years basically ran on memories of those races. FF has been going without a break in an extended campaign-he was rank in his last and I think he will be a huge flop Saturday..............

SLEWPIE > Do you really think FP ran "great" in the Risen Star? He finished behind FF.He ran OK..FF won and his performance wasn't great either. Flying Pegasus was coming off a long break,going 2-turns,running more than 7f for the first time and had to run hard all the way..ingredients for a major bounce reaction. And last year's Futurity is last year's news.Friesan Fire is a whole new animal..You should know better Bobbie.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Robert says:  Yes- As I told JS- I love FP! He has always given 100% in every race and is always there in the end. He was racing a well seasoned bunch in the Risen Star and when you look at his start- then being carried 5 wide- 4 wide- finally getting 3 wide and losing a ton on lengths- it was an incredible feat to finish as he did. THAT is my opinion and if you want to pull my jock strap about it- so be it. In regards to the Futurity, once again on the jock strap theme- you treat people the way you want to be treated- with that in mind- people must treat you like crap. I dont like the way FP is fitting into this race- especially the qualifications his connections make dont inspire a win bet...................

SLEWPIE> Jason,Steve Haskins and others have Friesan Fire rated below par>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert says: And they are right..........

SLEWPIE>.And all he's done is nothing but win his last 2 races,fairly easy.And some still don't take him seriously.If that's not a "rodney" syndrome,then what is..The betting public aren't idiots..well..anyways,FP has no support at the windows because he's a sucker's bet.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says: If you weren’t always sticking your foot in your mouth- you would have noticed I was talking about FP and he has never finished worse than second in regards to “Rodney”. Your new found love, Friesan Fire is high on the lists of Dick Downey, Johnny Avello, Jay Privman and although Ellis Star picks your other horse Clem to win- he also has FF in his top 8.............    

SLEWPIE > Meaning he doesn't produce,get it.Running 2nd or 3rd is Not getting it done.>>>>>>>>> LMFAO- Seriously! Do you have these lines printed in advance? You could have made the same bs statements about I/W/R, Papa Clem at Hollywood,  before the Lecomte FF lost 3 of 4 races and was beaten by Flying Pegasus. PON is another horse that lost 3 of his first 4- off the board twice- it took Pample three tries to win his first race- when you are talking all this crap, what are you actually trying to say? Since you don’t think too much, my point was that he was 20-1 in the Futurity and and 11-1 in the Risen Star and finished a close 2nd both times. The one time he was 3-5 he won the race, when Flying Pegasus was 2-1 he won the race. A ‘sucker’ bet would have been betting a favorite and getting trashed- as if you bet the favorite last year in the Florida Derby, Tampa Bay Derby, Lexington, Bluegrass, Wood etc.....................

SLEWPIE >"Looking at Giant Oak is like looking at I Want Revenge"...What? In what way, shape or form genius. Your feeble explanation did nothing to clear that correlation up.>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says:What is the cream that you put on hemorrhoids? I guess I better find out as I feel a big one growing here. When you look at I/W/R- and you toss the Santa Anita races since he didn’t like the surface- he suddenly looks 8-5 as Hollywood was the most similar to Aqueduct. You look at Giant Oak- he ran on 4 different tracks and even proved himself on turf. If you ignore the Bourbon- a race Prado was pressed towards the rail in- and in which he had to check several times- he stands out in this race. I mentioned the Futurity because he showed he has a huge talent and is very mature based on his 5 w move that only just missed at the wire in his start right after the Bourbon. It was a G-2 race- he showed that the nightmare trip in the G-3 Bourbon didn’t scar him or cause him to ‘look for excuses’ as you say. If you look at how he bounced back- and watch him in the Risen Star- it should be obvious that he will win and pay around $ 8..................    

SLEWPIE> Don't worry, Papa Clem will have no trouble with the surface. Or was he bred for Synthetic surfaces only..Mel Stute has been permanently stabled @ Santa Anita for over 50 years.His horses go where he goes.No Problem.>>>>>>>>>> Robert says: I really don’t care about Stute, California or breeding in regards to Papa Clem. I said he was use to the synthetic surface- has only worked there his entire career- didn’t run well at Hollywood and he is a sucker bet- as you say- on Saturday..................

SLEWPIE>I could give a rats a$$ even if you spoke to Bernie Mac.But What does 2 Giants Causeways breaking their maiden @ GP and Graham almost winning have ANYTHING to do with this subject.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Robert says: Do you realize how stupid you look Slewpie? That I didn’t say; Hey JS you know I heard…………….’ Instead I just posted some thoughts- and this is the best you can do? LMAO…..It isn’t your blog- if you don’t like something that is posted- start your own page and you can count on the fact that nobody could stand you after one topic. You would be doing it alone- even then you probably still find fault with yourself.

Robert H 11 Mar 2009 3:51 PM

MP- I don't have a 'system'. I always track the stakes horses and two or three times a month I will bet heavy on whatever I decided in what spot I go with. Anything can happen in a horse race- but this isn't politics- being direct is what it is.

I went into the age of FF because he hasn't had a break- was still very young and the last horse to attempt the Louisiana Triple was a heavy favorite and fininshed off the board. In regards to the race you talked about- I didn't bet it and never blogged about it.

Robert H 11 Mar 2009 4:06 PM

LPD,

You can have whatever opinion you like, but when you slam a rider talking smack on a BLOG- WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN LPD?

This is a BLOG- people TALK- they supposedly exchange opinions or pass on info. When you slammed him for losing the Belmont- I responded in detail with specifics-THAT is why this a a BLOG.

Most of the writers back then thought Purge would defeat SJ- so Purge was sent off as the favorite- in a perfect ride- and brilliant tactics, Elliot crushed Purge and if you are two blind to see all he did for that horse-  YOU ARE RIGHT- you can have whatever opinion you like.

But in a Blog- don't expect to talk smack and then nobody responds.

Robert H 11 Mar 2009 4:18 PM

Robert: Street Sense was far from being just a Churchill horse. While he ran his best races at that track, he did follow is Derby with a bang-up run in the Preakness, losing to the wonderful Curlin by just a nose, and then swept the Jim Dandy and Travers. In the Kentucky Cup Classic, he ran 2nd to a quality horse, Hard Spun, who had a huge pace advantage; Hard Spun had already proven an affinity for Turfway, having won the Lane's End.  The only poor race Street Sense ever ran was in the Breeders Cup Classic.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I never said he was a bad horse- I said he loved CD-CD loved him- and after that.....he slips and slips and his only victory was a against the flop Grasshoper.

Robert H 11 Mar 2009 4:22 PM

Robert,

    What smack did i talk? I said i blame him, smack would be like Elliot sucks, that rider stinks, he shouldn't be a jockey, and where in any of my post did you see anything to that??? Alan state his oppinion w/o going into a fit. I don't expect you to not to respond its your right, but you can at least be like alan and be respectful. I only said again, that i blame Elliot, one of the big reasons is because he moved way to soon and i still feel he could've urged Smarty more. That is all i said. All i do on these blogs is come on and state my oppinion. If you don't agree fine with me, you can tell me, Mike Relva and me disagree on many things, but we don't get in each others faces. When you get in my face for no apperent reason other than you don't like what i have to say, you can expect me to get rude right back.

LDP 11 Mar 2009 5:55 PM

TO ROBERT H:

You don't have the "franchase tag" for this blog! If LDP and others' have a different opinion than you then that's their business. Many on this blog are"in love with their own voice" that in reality know,at best little regarding racing. Many are here only to serve as a distraction to what this blog should really be about. No one here "wrote the book",it's about that simple!

Mike Relva 12 Mar 2009 12:16 PM

Mike,

    Thanks, so much for defending me. I have to say it feels like every time i talk on a blog i get into a fight, lol. So did you get my e-mail?

LDP 12 Mar 2009 9:15 PM

TO: LDP

Which email,dear?

Mike Relva 12 Mar 2009 9:57 PM

Maybe it didn't send, but i was talking about mainly my two horses in there, it was kinda long, lol. I have AOL, so maybe it will take a while to get to you. My address was radianceparadise@aol.com

LDP 13 Mar 2009 7:56 AM

LPD:

If it's ok,I will write you

Mike Relva 13 Mar 2009 12:14 PM

Mike,

   Of course it's fine. I know i took ten years making up my mind on whether to email, but i'm fine with it. Feel free to write away.

LDP 13 Mar 2009 10:15 PM

TO: LDP

Last nite I discovered your letter,thanks. Will write you over the weekend.

Mike Relva 14 Mar 2009 12:05 PM

Mike,

    Good, i was wondering if it sent it or not, lol. Sorry it was soooo long, probably scared you away. I look forward to reading your email.

LDP 14 Mar 2009 6:40 PM

TO: ROBERT H

Guess you were wrong today regarding FF. If you read the blogs you will see I picked him for the homerun. Guess you aren't right all the time!

Mike Relva 14 Mar 2009 8:34 PM

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