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Five Longshots to Consider

There is no secret of who the four favorites will be when post time rolls around in Derby 135 - I Want Revenge, Pioneerof the Nile, Dunkirk and Friesan Fire. All of them will likely be under 10-1, and for different reasons each of them have a good chance to win the race.

But today I'm going to make a case for five longshots. While each of these colts will have to improve and run the race of their lives to get top prize, they are all very capable of hitting the board for our exotic plays. And as we know, that's where the big money is on Derby day.

I'll be back on Thursday with a complete analysis of the Derby, including final selections. Until then, keep studying. There is always something out there that we have missed.

 

Chocolate Candy - If you like Pioneerof the Nile, the son of Candy Ride must be considered. He was only a length back of Pioneerof the Nile in the Santa Anita Derby and it can be argued that he ran the better race since he was forced to go five-wide on the final turn. Here's a horse that has not been off the board in his last seven starts, has five two-turn races under his belt, and is one of only a couple horses in the field who has gone 1 1/8-miles twice. From a value standpoint, he'll be much better odds than Pioneerof the Nile. Don't underestimate Jerry Hollendorfer, who ranks fourth all-time for wins by a trainer. The numbers will say this colt is not fast enough, but even if that is the case, he is certainly capable of hitting the board.

Likely odds: Somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 20-1

General Quarters - There is a lot to like about this colt and it's not just the feel-good story surrounding his $20,000 claim by a 75-year-old retired high school principal. The son of Sky Mesa turned a lot of heads in his Blue Grass win in which he came home the final three furlongs in a stellar :35 2/5. He has three starts over the Churchill surface, including a win, and trained on the track prior to his Blue Grass score. General Quarters, who has more starts than anyone in the field (11), has good tactical speed that should put him in striking position. And don't forget that he adds Julien Leparoux. Not only is Leparoux the hottest rider in the country, but he broke Pat Day's record for most wins in a single meet last year at Churchill.

Odds: Somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 to 20-1

Hold Me Back - When trying to find the Derby winner, it is important to find horses who are continuing to improve. Not many horses in the field have more upside than Hold Me Back, who will be making just his third start of the year. As a 2-year-old, Bill Mott admitted this was a slight, immature horse that needed time to grow into his body. Since he turned 3, the son of Giant's Causeway has really blossomed physically, and it has showed on the racetrack. His last-to-first Lane's End move was sensational and he made a similar run in the Blue Grass when finishing runner-up. The biggest question mark with Hold Me Back is whether he will handle dirt the same way as synthetics. Many are looking at his off-the-board finish in the Remsen - his only start on natural dirt - as a bad sign. I don't think his poor effort in that race had anything to do with dirt, it was more an indication that he was physically immature and needed time to grow. He seems to have handled the Churchill dirt just fine in his works. If you're looking for a deep closer at a big price, he must be considered. Remember, Mott is a Hall of Famer for a reason.

Odds: Somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 or 30-1

Musket Man - Based on his pedigree, this colt does not belong in this race. However, the son of Yonaguska has already outrun that pedigree twice and has shown no signs of slowing down. Has a pair of prep wins over different dirt surfaces and has won five of six starts overall, making him one of the most consistent horses in the race. He's a colt that likes to make a big middle move and once he gets in front doesn't like to let go. Coa had his choice of General Quarters, who Musket Man defeated two of three times, but chose to stay on this one. That alone is s sign that this horse has a chance.

Odds: Somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 to 22-1

Papa Clem - Using the same logic as with Chocolate Candy, Papa Clem is certainly capable of hanging with Pioneerof the Nile based on his half-length defeat in the Robert Lewis, a race in which he defeated I Want Revenge by a length. In his first try on dirt he set the pace in the slop at Fair Grounds and other than Friesan Fire, defeated every horse in a field that was considered, at the time, as the best Derby prep to date. Then, in the Arkansas Derby Papa Clem showed another dimension by rating off the pace and then outdueling Old Fashioned in the stretch. This horse has shown tenacity and unlike Pioneerof the Nile, is proven on dirt. He will be forwardly-placed and could hang around for a long time. Bejarano is one of the best around.

Odds: Somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 to 22-1

 

 

 

116 Comments:

I'm usin one that the draynay guy doesn't. He's a jinx and changes his mind so often I wonder what drugs he's on. Hasn't that dude made 17 or 18 choices in the last two months? Hold Me back is a good choice. I like him and so far ms. draynay doesn't.

effy 28 Apr 2009 12:49 PM

Jason, any word on the weather for Saturday? I agree with your positives for each, which makes this Derby the hardest in years.

Frank J. 28 Apr 2009 12:55 PM

It's supposed to rain all week but stop on Saturday, from what I've been reading.

jshandler 28 Apr 2009 1:08 PM

Where's the love for Square Eddie? He had a great 2yr old season and came back from sore shins and ran a nice race. I don't think he'll "bounce" going in to the Derby. I'll put him in with my other picks. Besides he's my only live ticket left from Vegas!

Wanda 28 Apr 2009 1:12 PM

Papa Clem had a terrible looking work but Bejarano is scalding on fire right now....the only other longshot I am looking at is Win Willy who is likely to rebound back to form.

Alejo 28 Apr 2009 1:15 PM

Jason,

I think those 5 horses are each capable of pulling off the upset.  I particularly like Chocolate Candy and General Quarters.  In fact, my pick is Chocolate Candy.  I think this horse can do it and I would love to see Jerry Hollendorfer in the winners circle.

As I've said all along, I truly think this year will be an upset winner and there is some money to be made.

Jason, who do you think is most likely to be the upset?

Monica V 28 Apr 2009 1:21 PM

Just read that Eddie is out. Oh well I hope the Bruins win the Stanley Cup cause my brother in law inherited the future bet that my husband bet in Vegas.

Wanda 28 Apr 2009 1:22 PM

Square Eddie is out Wanda.

Monica V: I like General Quarters, but this Derby is so wide-open that 8-10 horses have a legit chance

jshandler 28 Apr 2009 1:23 PM

In alphabetical order, I've eliminated Advice, Dunkirk, Flying Private, Join in the Dance, Mine That Bird, Mr. Hot Stuff, Musket Man, Regal Ransom, Summer Bird, Take the Points, West Side Bernie and Win Willy from my consideration. I respect the ability of several of these colts, but handicapping is about taking a stand and playing the probabilities.

In my opinion, the colts (alphabetical order) with a shot to win are Chocolate Candy, Desert Party, Friesan Fire, General Quarters, Hold Me Back, I Want Revenge, Papa Clem and Pioneerof the Nile. I'm not high on General Quarters or Papa Clem, but will wait until the post position draw to make my final selections, and might reconsider one or two of the first group if they draw better than some in the second.

The best thing Dunkirk has going for him is his route pedigree. Otherwise, he is simply going to have to win a graded stakes before I can pick him ahead of the accomplished colts in this year's Derby. If his first stakes win comes in the Derby, so be it, but I'll still never regret not buying in to the hype surrounding this colt. I'm not from Missouri, but am the show-me type anyway.

For Big Red 28 Apr 2009 1:26 PM

JASON: I just saw the news that Take the Points is out and Atomic Rain is in. Do you have any info about Atomic Rain? I never thought he'd start, so did no analysis of his record. Thanks for any insights.

For Big Red 28 Apr 2009 1:31 PM

Big Red: Atomic Rain is a horse that likes to run mid-pack. He won just once in 7 starts, a maiden last summer. Off the board in both stakes this season. If he wins, I will give it up and start writing about hockey. lol

jshandler 28 Apr 2009 1:40 PM

some of you might think I'm nuts when I say this but I think Mr. Hot Stuff has a decent shot in the race if he avoids traffic trouble and gets a good post. I think he'll relish the 1 1/4 distance just like his big brother CJ did in the Travers and if the stars are aligned come Saturday he just might be able to pull a Giacomo like move and come flying at the end. Come to think of it I see a lot of similarities between the 2 horses in race record and running style. He's my longshot in here  

KMAUER 28 Apr 2009 1:42 PM

Okay I'm going with General Quarters as my long shot. The more I read about the owner/trainer the more I get that he called all the shots even when the horse was at Tampa. The guy is a pretty good trainer for a retired school teacher. The horse has done nothing wrong and has progressed nicely. I'm only going to pick one and stay with it and that's my final offer!

Wanda 28 Apr 2009 1:44 PM

Atomic Rain is now in, what do you think Jason? I don't think he has a change, BUT I still love him.

aspradling@bloodhorse.com 28 Apr 2009 2:18 PM

I'm just going to be agreeable today and agree with Wanda about General Quarters and KMAUER about Mr. Hot Stuff. I watched Mr. Hot Stuff before, during & after the Santa Anita Derby. He looked like a kid in a candy store before the race and about halfway through, then you could see all the wheels in his head kicking in gear because he got serious coming down the stretch. He was just a little too late. I think he's got it now. And General Quarters is the most tested horse in the field and he's improved and likes to win. But I have to say that I like Musket Man, too. And I think too many people are discounting the Dubai horses. How can anyone make up their mind this year?

Karen in Indiana 28 Apr 2009 2:23 PM

I'd give Musket Man the nod out of those listed.

Lone Speed 28 Apr 2009 2:27 PM

dunkirk has NO shot. i've already told people that if chocolate candy wins, i'm walking home. i'm banking on a friesan fire/desert party exacta. watch out for regal ransom. may get an easy lead and not look back. my longshot is atomic rain. had a horrible trip in the wood.

mark 28 Apr 2009 2:37 PM

Big Red - The horses you eliminated from your win list, did you also eliminate them from hitting the board?  Also,is this based on your closing speed analysis?  Really interested in your opinions.

Kmaur and Karen in Indiana- I also think MHS has a shot, at least to hit the board.  I think he may have a better rider now than before in John V, and I think he may surprise a lot of people. I have the feeling a horse under the radar is going to win the race.  If the track comes up sloppy, who knows what could happen  We do know FF likes the slop.

Speedball 28 Apr 2009 3:13 PM

Talk about not bred for distance.  General Quarters is by a stallion who never won past 1 1/16 miles {Sky Mesa}, whose grandsire {Pulpit} never won past 1 1/8th miles, out of a mare by a stallion who does not through stamina even though bred for it {Unbridleds Song}.  After saying all that, it won't surprise me if he wins.  I like Dunkirk, but also think he needs to win a stake before I take him over Friesan Fire and Desert Party and Chocolate Candy.  I think Pioneerof The Nile is sitting on explode and probably is the best horse, but I don't like it that he does not like to rate.  His win in the S.A. Derby was not one to give you hope that he will rate in the KY Derby.  If it rains even a little bit......all bets are off and its Friesan Fire or I Want Revenge.  Got to love that A.P.Indy blood at Churchill in the mud or slop.

ROBERT 28 Apr 2009 3:35 PM

So with Square Eddie and Take The Points both out and Atomic Rain in, does that currently leave the field at 19 horses?  If so, anybody think a trainer like Lukas would possibly jump in late with one of his other horses like Hamazing Destiny?  What about Flat Out?  I know he was on the consideration list.  Jason, have you heard anything about any of the above questions?

Curlin 28 Apr 2009 4:27 PM

General Quarters is looking mighty good galloping/training @ Churchill Downs.He's a big,strong,seasoned professional,totally relaxed and ready for the Biggie..also,DP seems to be gliding over the surface,has his game-face on.

Slew.em.All 28 Apr 2009 4:33 PM

Out of those listed I would have to go with Musket Man. He does have some heart and really has done nothing wrong. Still think Friesan Fire takes it. We haven't seen the bottom of this horse yet.

Horswld 28 Apr 2009 4:35 PM

Jason I think you are dead on with Musket Man and Chocolate Candy.  From what I hear CC looks better and better every day.  With his breeding and foundation I believe he will hit the board and may win if Dunkirk doesn't fire for some reason.

draynay 28 Apr 2009 4:47 PM

Curlin: I havent heard about any late comers. There only horse in question at this point, as far as I know, is Advice. We may have only 18 or 19 this year.

jshandler 28 Apr 2009 4:53 PM

I'm going with the Dubai pair as possible underneath horses. I think these two have not missed a beat in their training and have proven form in the U.S. They look very well in their training and its sort of a 1-2 punch with them. One will be on or near the lead and the other just slightly off the pace. Don't want any stone cold closers in this one.

The Rock 28 Apr 2009 5:09 PM

I really liked Quality Road so I am somewhat impressed by Dunkirk.  I liked the move he made in the Florida Derby so if Quality Road was the horse to beat then you do have to consider Dunkirk.  That said, General Quarters has intrigued me since the Sam Davis.  I like a value, but I am having a hard time going too deep this year.  Any of the top 6-8 could get there.

Springsmom83 28 Apr 2009 5:13 PM

pioneer of the nile or chocolate candy so mark get ready to walk home.

beast1997 28 Apr 2009 5:16 PM

Curlin-- Flat Out is on the shelves as of this past Sunday,came out of his last work with a slight hairline fracture on his right shoulder,too bad.

Jason-- I believe Pletcher declared Advice in for the Derby,TTP is pointing for the Preakness.

Slew.em.All 28 Apr 2009 5:17 PM

JASON:  The possible wire to wire winner has to be Regal Ransom and the possible "hell for leather" closer to win has to be Win Willy.

This Derby has gotten tougher to handicap each day. Its a really knotty affair, however my top four are 1) Friesan Fire 2)POTN 3)Win Willy 4)General Quarters (replacing Square Eddie).  The Dubai duo have also become more appealing in light of the exercise reports and the confidence of Saeed Bin Suror.

Ranagulzion 28 Apr 2009 5:28 PM

TO SPEEDBALL: Those in my "eliminated" list are just the horses I think won't win the Derby. Sure, any of them can hit the board. As mentioned, I respect several of them, but one has to take a stand somewhere.

When handicapping, I try to evaluate a lot of information, particularly for route races like the Derby. I look at pedigree, the horse's current condition, two-turn races, race record this year, and so on. I use speed figures as a guide, not as a be-all-and-end-all.

Re the closing fractions, I only have the complete fractions for the last seven derbies. Would prefer more data points, but of those seven, the average fractions are 22.88, 46.44, 1:10.91, 1:36.61, and 2:03.06. The average quarter miles are 23:16, 24:47, 25:30, 26:05. That equates to an average closing speed of 31.53 for the first 1 1/6 miles and 38.33

for the 1 1/8 miles.

I looked at all likely 2009 Derby entrants, noted which horses won at least one two-turn race this year, calculated their closing times for those races, and found the following:

Final 2 1/2 furlongs in winning races at 1 1/16 miles:

I Want Revenge - :29.56

Friesan Fire - :30.12

Pioneerof the Nile - :30.13

Advice - :30.37

Musket Man - :31.22

General Quarters - :31.29

Chocolate Candy - :32.34

Win Willy - :32.34

Final 3 furlongs for winning races at 1 1/8 miles:

General Quarters - :35.55

Pioneerof the Nile - :36.45

Quality Road - :37.06

I Want Revenge - :37.17

Hold Me Back - :37.20

Papa Clem - :37.46

Chocolate Candy - :37.49

Musket Man - :38.01

For speed figure aficionados, yes, these are "raw" times. What I'm attempting to do with these calcs is simply to identify which colts are most likely to have the closing turn of foot necessary to win most derbies.

Also, please note that we don't have fractional times for the Dubai horses. Like most observers, I suspect that Regal Ransom will be on the lead and Desert Party will come late.

RacingPost.com, the overseas equivalent of the DRF (www.racingpost.com/.../seasonal_stats_home.sd), rates Desert Party 10 points higher than Regal Ransom. However, Racing Post ranks DP 9 points behind their top rating for an American colt: Friesan Fire, 121. They have DP behind I Want Revenge, Dunkirk, Pioneerof the Nile, Win Willy, General Quarters, Papa Clem, and tied with Chocolate Candy. Presumably, the foreign racing media knows the Dubai colts better than we do. However, by all accounts, the two colts are both training great and look super at Churchill Downs, so it's hard to ignore them.

For Big Red 28 Apr 2009 5:34 PM

For Big Red... Dunkirk ran a 108 Beyer at 1 1/8th and no horse is really close to that at that distance.  IWR has a 103, Papa and West Side Bernie have a 101, and MM a 98.  If Dunkirk improves just 3 Beyer points he is at 111 and every other horse in the field would have to improve 10 or 15 points to beat him.  It seems like it is really Dunkirks race unless someone can make a HUGE move forward.  I guess POTN or CC could do that but it seems to be a stretch.

draynay 28 Apr 2009 5:55 PM

I'm taking I Want Revenge as my top pick no matter what right now. I don't think post will hurt him all that bad. Then my longshot will be General Quarters. I like the way he runs and I don't see much he has done wrong either. Friesian Fire I'm still not sure about. I know he is training well, but when I see him I can't see derby written all over him like POTN and IWR.

For Revenge 28 Apr 2009 5:56 PM

TO SPEEDBALL: Several reasons why I don't put Mr. Hot Stuff in my "horses most likely to win" group. By all means, don't let me talk you off him if you like him. Bottom line, it's your money, so you have to be comfortable when you spend it.

Still, here are my reasons for not liking him for the win: No 2-turn stakes wins. A low average 2-turn Beyer of 84.6. Best 2-turn Beyer is 93, one of the lowest in the field. Only 1 lifetime win so far. Hasn't been at CD getting acclimated and accustomed to the track surface.

On the positive side: He does have a route pedigree and should relish the distance. Everyone seems to agree that the Beyers for synthetic surfaces are too low. I love Tiznow and always root for his babies.

I believe Mr. Hot Stuff arrived at CD today, so we will get some insights into his condition when he gallops tomorrow. He had a solid if unspectacular work at Santa Anita two days ago, going 5f in 1:00 2/5, 12th of 47 at that distance, that day. He broke his maiden at a mile in a nice 1:35 4/5. Last, but not least, he appears to be a colt on the improve. It would be a shocker if he won the Derby, but I think this colt will win some stakes before his career is over.

For Big Red 28 Apr 2009 5:57 PM

Dont you think you need to wait till tomorrow before post postions are out. horses 16-20 have no chance this year. If all horses are even as far as speed those outside horses will be coooked. The reason BB won was because he was the fastest horse and was juicing!

anti draynay and thong song! 28 Apr 2009 6:00 PM

I LIKE THE CHANCES OF MUSKET MAN. HE IS LIKE WAR EMBLEM...KNOWN BUT NOT FAVORITE, HAS A GOOD SPEED, WELL BUILT.

ALTHOUGH I MIGHT GO WITH PIONEER OF THE NILE, MUSKET MAN IS MY NEXT CHOICE...GO..GO....GO...

WINDBLOWN 28 Apr 2009 6:19 PM

For Big Red and Mark, you are crazy imo if you dont give Dunkirk a chance - I think he is the most likely to win besides FF. He will have a little more air this time and we have seen the move he is capable of and he is probably sitting on a big race.

Mike 28 Apr 2009 7:09 PM

anti draynay and thong song!, Half the horses were juicing last year -BB was just a superior horse. I think a Dunkirk could survive and win from 16 maybe even a FF but I would rather them be in more.

Mike 28 Apr 2009 7:12 PM

For Big Red- Thanks for the info on the speed figures and closing speeds.  It seems as though the class of 2009 is a speedier group compared to previous years.  It is very interesting as well about the RacingPost.com.  It does seem as though the Dubai horses are training very well.

Actually, all the horses on your "shot to win list" are on my short list also.  I liked GQ but many think he's not been looking so hot this week, but Steve thinks he seems to be recovering from his Blue Grass win.  He thinks Choc Candy is looking very good,and I think Mike Smith was a great choice for the colt.  I'm anxious to read what you think after the post draw.

PS.  MHS is my long shot, and I'm not much of a gambler anyway.  Glad John V will be riding him.

I enjoy reading  your opinions because they are more based on statistic performance than personal bias.  Thanks!!

Speedball 28 Apr 2009 7:32 PM

FOR BIG RED,

I love and respect your comments so I would love your input on the fractions set for this years Derby. It seems to me that we might end up with a wet or semi-wet track this year. Speed seems to hold fairly well on a damp track because alot of horses of course don't like mud flung in their faces. Sure, some it doesn't bother. I see Regal Ransom and Join in the Dance up front so I may put one of them below Friesan Fire in my tri's and super's. Really don't know yet. What is your take on the fractions to be set this year and I know we don't have the pp's til tomarrow but take a stab at how you think the race may unfold. Again thanks for all your input.

Horswld 28 Apr 2009 7:32 PM

Fell in love with Chocolate Candy as a 2 year old in the Cash Call.  Been touting him ever since. Watched him fall asleep in the paddock right before the Santa Anita Derby. LOVE Mike Smith picking up the mount as he fits his style a little better than the previous 6 or 7 different jockeys.  With POTN and IWR being under odds of 5-1 and Chocolate Candy 10/15-1 what's not to like?  The 59 and change works just makes me want to dig into my wallet a little deeper.  Way to stick with your guns on this one Jason.  THE PICK for an upset. He just does not corner well.  This won't be as much of an issue in the long stretch at Churchill.  Look for him to be flying in the middle of the track where no one can see him.

Householder 28 Apr 2009 7:36 PM

friesian fire over chocolate candy in the slop.

landaluce 28 Apr 2009 7:58 PM

It will be Chocolate Candy's day. I've been waiting for this since February!

MRO 28 Apr 2009 8:08 PM

I agree with the other ladies, General Quarters for under dog to super dog. I would love to see this horse do well.

Paula Higgins 28 Apr 2009 8:15 PM

DRAYNAY: The Beyer numbers for the Florida Derby were "adjusted" upwards by EIGHT POINTS, and the adjustment occurred more than a week after the race. How the heck can I trust that?

Beyers are just a tool, nothing more. They are not the be-all-and-end-all of handicapping.

I look at Dunkirk's past performances and see a colt with three lifetime starts, with a maiden win and an allowance win. He won both in rather ordinary times despite the fact that Gulfstream Park was playing super fast all winter.

I watched videos of all three of Dunkirk's starts and came away unimpressed each time. To my eye, the colt became leg weary in mid stretch in both his ALW win and FLDerby second.

Dunkirk has not won a stakes race, let alone a tough G1 like the Kentucky Derby. In addition, the FLDerby appears to have been a strong negative key race. In finishing order, the starters were: Quality Road, Dunkirk, Theregoesjojo, Stately Character, Sincero, Casey's On Call, and Toby the Coal Man. Quality Road had nothing but physical problems since that race. Theregoesjojo regressed badly, and we haven't heard from any of the others since.

Dunkirk has been kept down at the Palm Meadows Training Center rather than bringing him up to CD to let him get acclimated. Can't know for certain, but I suspect one reason is that they were hoping the quieter atmosphere at PmM would help the colt recover better from that extremely taxing FLDerby.

In any case, picking this horse to win over the several very accomplished colts in this field is nothing but a pure crap shoot. Don't be fooled by those bullet works he's had down at PmM. It's easy to throw bullets when you're one of only a handful of horses working at that distance, that day. Here's the three works Dunkirk had at PmM since his last race:

Apr. 10 4f :48 4/5 B 1 of 7

Apr. 18 5f :59 4/5 H 1 of 12

Apr. 25 5f 1:01 B 1 of 4

That second work is listed as handily, not breezing. That means he was being pressured for speed. The works seem rather ordinary to me.

You can point to Big Brown, who also had only three races before the KD. Huge difference, however. Big Brown was undefeated in those three starts. He raced once as a 2-year-old, blowing away his maiden field by 11 1/4 lengths. As a 3-year-old, he returned in an ALW race, blowing away that field by 12 3/4 lengths. And he won the Florida Derby by 5 lengths.

Barbaro was also lightly raced, and he was also undefeated, having won three straight graded stakes before the Kentucky Derby. Smarty Jones, also lightly raced, was undefeated and had won the Rebel and Arkansas Derby. Grindstone had five races before the KD. He won the Louisiana Derby and was second (just a neck back) in the Arkansas Derby.

If Dunkirk somehow jumps up and wins the Derby, so be it, but it will be a cold day in hades before I'd ever bet on a colt with so little to recommend him in the Kentucky Derby.

For Big Red 28 Apr 2009 8:21 PM

Hold Me Back

Win Willie

Musket Man

Ex Box

Deadheat 28 Apr 2009 9:25 PM

Big Red ... you make some interesting points but I think you are missing the one thing that will keep you from picking the winner on Derby Day.  Dunkirk is a very talented athlete.  He has a Michael Jordan look about him... I guess that is why they paid 3.7 million for him because they saw it too.  I saw it in the Florida Derby... before the Derby I called him every name in the book after the Derby my opinion had changed. There is very little I can say to change your mind but all you need to do is watch his maiden race and you are basically watching what will happen in the Derby.  Cheap speed will die and the table will be set for Dunkirk. Do I expect CC,POTN, and MM chasing after him yes... do I expect him to get caught...no.  If you can't see the athlete in him I can't help you but I can tell you this much... he is the best horse in the field and he will win the Kentucky Derby.  IF he doesn't I will come back here and tell you how wrong I was and ask for forgiveness but if I am right and I am pretty sure I am, come back here and tell me again all the reasons he couldn't win. Deal ?

draynay 28 Apr 2009 10:22 PM

What I will be playing is how the track comes up , looks like it could be good to sloppy, with the weather they're having, and what I'll want to know is what type of shoe the horses will be wearing, without knowing this information it makes picking the winner and his entourage all that more impossible in this stellar cast of characters.

Maybe I'll just box up those with the same first and last initial:

Friesan Fire

Regal Ransom

Musket Man

Chocolate Candy

Win Willy

that could make for a nice Superfecta.

predict 28 Apr 2009 10:31 PM

For Big Red (and others):

Can't disagree with what you are saying about Dunkirk's inexperience. However, Gulfstream had not being playing fast the entire meet. The track only started playing fast the week of the Florida Derby, which is why there were so much discusiion over the track records set that Saturday. Before that week, I believe the fastest 9 furlong time of the meet was by older males, at 149 and change.

The reason why Quality Road's Fountain of Youth received a 113 Beyer is that the 1 mile time of 135 flat was considerably faster than other horses had been running that meet; before Florida Derby weekend, horses were simply not running miles under 136 and 9 furlongs under 149, except for Quality Road with that 1:35 mile.

The fact that Gulfstream sped up incredibly during Florida Derby week is reflected by Dunkirk's improvement in 9 furlong time from his allowance win to the Flordia Derby; Dunkirk ran about 1:48 in the Florida Derby while only 1:50 in that allowance, a difference of 10 lengths, while the Beyer difference (108 in Fl Derby to 98 in allowance) is only 5 lengths. Thus, the track on Florida Derby day was 5 lengths faster than it was on the day of that allowance.

As for Dunkirk's Derby chances, I agree that it is asking alot of him to win. I can completely understand Derby veterans and others for taking a "show me" stance on a horse with only 3 career starts and none at 2. On the positive side, he has 2 starts at 9 furlongs, he has excellent distance breeding, and he has demonstrated top-level talent. Dunkirk is not explosive, but he has a long, smooth stride, creating the appearance that he isn't covering as much ground as he is. Before the Florida Derby I brought up that his way of moving reminded me of Rags to Riches; Riches' didn't have that brilliant "wow" factor like a Rachel Alexandra, but she sure was good. I really didn't give her much chance in the Belmont vs. Curlin and Hard Spun, but she proved herself a champion.

Dunkirk had alot going against him in the Florida Derby, and ran a courageous race to lose by less than 2 lengths to a horse, Quality Road, that had a tactical advantage and is extremely fast on top of it. I can certainly understand the "if you liked Quality Road you have to like Dunkirk" rationale, just as I understand those who feel the Derby is too much and too soon. I lean more towards the former, although I like others in the field a little bit better. Thus, I have him ranked #3.

GunBow 28 Apr 2009 11:03 PM

Flying private needs some love as a super long shot. Go bakc and look at a replay of the Mountain Valley Stakes at Oaklawn. I know, it wasnt exactly a talented group, but he was blocked, cut off, had to alter course several times, and still almost won.

The only horse who has shown the ability to take up, alter course and come again is I want Revenge.

Pioneer of the Nile is the winner. He refuses to lose. Reminds me a lot of Afleet Alex. Sits back and waits, and then come running.

$5 tri box Pioneer of the nile, F-fire, Dunkirk, Flying Private, and I want Revenge.

Fire Slam 28 Apr 2009 11:30 PM

I love Hold Me Back as my longshot! I also loved the 1:01 and change work as I think they're gonna go too fast early---I will box him with POTN.....

Matthew W 28 Apr 2009 11:34 PM

Mike i dont think all the horses were juicing if they were it sure didnt help there cause. What i was saying is that big brown was faster than the rest of the horses that is why he won at 20. Besides last year when has a horse hit the board from 16-20 they usually have no chance and wont this year no matter who it is, post 1 scratch that horse to that will eliminate 5 horses for you!

anti draynay 28 Apr 2009 11:35 PM

    For Big Red, I can't argue one bit with your analysis of Dunkirk.  You're right, we could see any kind of performance from him Saturday.  He could jump up and leave this field in the dust or finish up the track.  I'm leaning more towards a big race than a regression.  Now where that puts him again is anybody's guess.  I think in due time, he will be a monster.  However, maybe I look into things a little too much, but after going back through his past performances, outside of the FL Derby, which I think was a very good race for him for reasons I've stated previously, the competition he has beaten down south hasn't exactly set the world on fire.  He beat Santana Six handily in his maiden win, but Santana Six came back to finish next to last in the Derby Trial on opening day.  He next beat Warrior's Reward, who was soundly defeated in the TB Derby and is being pointed to an allowance race on Oaks Day.  Dunkirk has been training on even terms with Checklist at Palm Meadows and Checklist could do no better than 3rd in the Derby Trial this past weekend.  Those things make me wonder just how good he might be at this point or more so how good the competition was at Gulfstream.

    With that being said, I still think he is more than capable of hitting the board on talent alone Saturday and suspect he will do so.  However, I'm now not as big on him taking the roses as I previously was.  The horse I'm starting to look more towards now is POTN.  I've been fortunate enough to be at Churchill these past few days in the morning and he looks fantastic.  Baffert is beaming with confidence and I'm starting to see why.  It's not a stretch to think he can increase his Beyer figure 10 points on the dirt in the Derby which would put him around the 107-108 range.  That is plenty good enough to win Saturday.  Maybe Gomez did make the right call.  POTN didn't seem to have the same kick down the stretch in his last 2 races, but he was also closer to the pace than usual.  He won't be as close Saturday since there will be pace to run at, which should allow for that same closing kick we were accustomed to back in December-February.  How ironic would it be if the proverbial rabbit (Join In The Dance) turns out help the horse Gomez chose more so than Dunkirk.  I guess it's food for thought.

Curlin 29 Apr 2009 12:02 AM

Before the Quality Road injury, I had him just slightly ahead of I Want Revenge, and I had those two horses a tier above any others. So, I will likely stick with I Want Revenge on top. However, before Quality Road was withdrawn, I was confident that either he or IWR were going to win the Derby. I believed that even if one ran poorly, the other would fulfill its side and win. Unless both were to run poorly, which I really didn't see happening, I thought it was going to be difficult for someone else to break through.

Now, IWR is my lone "potential monster". I always thought there was the possibility IWR (or QR) would throw in a clunker, and there are ample examples of "big horses" coming up short in the Derby. Snow Chief, Easy Goer, Arazi, Holy Bull, Unbridled's Song, Point Given, Empire Maker, and Bellamy Road all looked formidable before their Derbys as well.

For me, picking the winner has become SO much more difficult w/o Quality Road. Like I said, I was fairly confident that if IWR did run poorly, QR would be there to hold down the fort (or vice versa). Now, if IWR should run poorly, I can see a number of horses winning. Yet, one has to feel positive about IWR's chances in the Derby given the trash talk from Jeff Mullins. I don't think it was appropraite, but Mullins wasn't taliking today about winning the Derby, he was talking about winning the Triple Crown!

Pioneer of the Nile would be my mid-season Eclipse winner, but I still have concerns about the dirt, have not liked how rank he was in his last 2, and wonder if he is good enough to deal with IWR now. Clearly Pioneer has the class to run and defeat IWR, at least on synthetics.  I do not believe synthetic Beyers are directly comparable to dirt Beyers (just like turf Beyers are not directly comparable to dirt Beyers), but even if a 7 or 8 point adjustment is made to Pioneer's figures, he STILL appears to be slower than IWR. If Pioneer is to beat IWR he not only has to be as good on dirt as he is on synthetics, he needs to improve about 5 lengths, because that is exactly what IWR has done. However, I do love the way Pioneer has been training. Still, he's only my #4.

#3 is Dunkirk, who I discussed in an earlier post. My #2 is Friesan Fire. I love his breeding and tactical speed, and know he will run well if the track is off. As with many, I have concerns about the 7 week break and the fact he has never run beyond 8.5 furlongs (Mile amd 1/16th). Yet, Larry Jones is an expert horseman, and he has had good experiences bringing horses off of layoffs. The mile work seemed great, and Jones clearly wanted to put some speed in with that 5 furlong work. I do have minor worries that his final eighth in that work was the slowest eighth, in addition to the gallop out.

Quality Road's defection, however, opens the door for other horses in the race as well. While IWR is my top selection, if he doesn't run well I think contention runs deep. Friesan Fire is #2, Dunkirk #3, and Pioneer #4. However, I do not believe these 3 horses are that much better than a number of others, like #5 General Quarters, or Musket Man, Chocolate Candy,or Hold Me Back. It appeared Chocolate Candy and General Quarters were not working well last week, but they seem to have turned things around. The two horses I now have questions as it concerns recent works are Papa Clem and Musket Man. Those two have not been receiving strong reviews from two of the writers I have been reading.

I respect the Dubai horses, but Godolphin has brought over horses before that looked good, like Express Tour(8th) in 2001 and Essence of Dubai(9th) in 2002. In fact, Essence of Dubai was Steve's #2 ranked horse as late as April 17th, and went off at only 10-1 in the Derby. It's an absolute myth that Godolphin hasn't brought over quality horses before. Again, just  like those who pass on Dunkirk for reasons of precedent, I can understand those, which will probably include me, passing on the Dubai horses. However, both Regal Ransom and Desert Party have classic pedigrees and have tactical speed. There simply is not much speed in the Derby lineup, so Regal Ransom on the lead and Desert Party stalking have to be given some respect. There are no Beyers for the Dubai races, but the Racing Post figure of 112 for the UAE Derby (very) roughly translates into a 102 Beyer. However, the final time for the 9 furlong UAE Derby was 1:50, on a track that Well Armed ran 10 furlongs in 2:01. If it is assumed that Regal Ransom/Desert Party would have been able to run another eighth in 13 or 14 seconds, the UAE Derby 9 furlong time translates into a 2:03-2:04 10 furlong time, or 10-15 lengths slower than Well Armed. That still would have been good enough for 2nd in the World Cup, given that Well Armed won by 14, but do you think Well Armed would win the Derby by 14 lengths? I don't.

Looking for long, long shots, I would think about some of the Arkansas Derby also-rans like Flying Private, Win Willy, and Summer Bird. Flying Private was severely impreded by a retreating Ziegfield around the turn in the Ark. Derby, Win Willy ran a better race in the Rebel and could run back to it, and Summer Bird is rapidly improving with a solid pedigree. All 3 should be HUGE odds.

GunBow 29 Apr 2009 12:42 AM

West Side Bernie.

I don't think anyone has made a positive comment on Bernie. I think he fits maybe just a little behind Chocolate Candy and Hold Me Back, and ahead of MHS, Summer Bird, and Win Willy. Unlike those last 3, Bernie is both a graded stakes winner and grade 1 placed. He won the graded stakes at 2, so he has foundation, and was most recently 2nd in the gr.1 Wood. His Beyer for the Wood was a 101, and only 5 other horses have a better figure. I am not saying I would put alot of money on him to win, but no one has mentioned him and I think the general public is going to drive his odds way up. Unlike Join in the Dance, Atomic Rain, Mine That Bird, and even Advice, Bernie has at least some shot, even if it is small.

GunBow 29 Apr 2009 1:22 AM

I'm not going to bash this Derby field, but the defections have really taken a toll on its overall quality. This is a strong crop of 3 year olds, and a month ago it appeared we would have an absolutely loaded field for the Derby, a field in which even some of the top graded stakes winners would be higher than 20-1. However, you just can't throw away horses like The Pamplemousse, Old Fashioned, Square Eddie and, especially, Quality Road. In the place of those last 2 horses injured just this week, we have  Join in the Dance and Atommic Rain. Neither of these two horses has won a stakes race of any kind, nor have Mr. Hot Stuff, Flying Private, and Summer Bird. Mine that Bird is a graded stakes winner, but at 2 and in Canada. However, it should be noted that there is another horse that has never won a stakes of any kind, that horse being Dunkirk!

The bottom of the lineup has really fallen off. Whereas a month ago I thought this was going to be a well above average Derby, now it looks like most every other Derby: 4 or 5 complete throw outs (Mine that Bird, Atomic Rain, Join in the Dance, and maybe Advice and Flying Private as it concerns winning), 6 real long shots (Regal Ransom, Desert Party, West Side Bernie, Mr. Hot Stuff, Summer Bird, and Win Willy), 5 so-called "longshots" (General Quarters, Musket Man, Chocolate Candy, Hold Me Back, and Papa Clem), and the 4 "favorites" (I Want Revenge, Friesan Fire, Dunkirk, and Pioneer of the Nile).

It's a good field, but no longer exceptional. With Quality Road there would have been 5 "favorites", and in my opinion there would have been two potential superstars, with QR and IWR going in as one of the strongest 1-2 Beyer tandems in recent Derby history.

GunBow 29 Apr 2009 1:49 AM

Great information everybody.  Keep posting For Big Red! I am trying to learn how to understand times and your stuff is very helpful.  I Want Revenge is the winner for me.  My handicapping has the depth of a kiddie pool though.

I Want Revenge 29 Apr 2009 2:01 AM

Don't dismiss Regal Ransom. He will be the spoiler at big odds. He is bred to run all day, lead on no lead. And if the track is wet, back up the truck. He is from several families of mudlarks. Box Regal Ransom, Desert Party and Friesan Fire, and watch the fun begin. Nature is going to throw everybody off just when they thought that they had it all figured out. Alan Garcia wins the Derby. I told you so.

bulldog 29 Apr 2009 2:49 AM

For Big Red,

Musket Man's final 3 furlongs at 1-1/8 miles was not 38.01, it was 37.07. That is both my figure and the figure at The Downey Profile. Where in the world did you get 38.01 from? He also ran the final furlong in 12.47 and was the only winner of a 9 furlong race who ran a strong 2nd quarter split in under 24 (23.30).

Just thought I would correct the error even though I am sure your mind is already made up anyhow.

Geronimo2123 29 Apr 2009 3:02 AM

mr hot stuff will take the last spot

trifectakid86 29 Apr 2009 3:09 AM

If it comes up sloppy FF and Summer Bird Exacta box. Otherwise FF,HMB,POTN,and DP Exactas and Tris

KOUBIE 29 Apr 2009 5:22 AM

Big Red, I couldn't agree with you more about the Florida Derby emerging as a strong negative key race; in fact, I do believe I made a similar point in an earlier post. (In fact, I strongly felt that Theregoesjojo would come out of that race and do better in the Blue Grass, but he clearly regressed.) In any event, since this is a board that's supposed to be devoted to the five longshots, let me make a nominal contribution: I had some interest early on in using Papa Clem in some exotics, as I rather liked his Arkansas Derby victory -- it seemed to me that he showed a new diminension, coming off the pace and displaying gritty determination while doing so. But the general consensus I'm getting is that his workouts at Churchill have been lackluster (with some noting that the lightly regarded Summer Bird was actualkly gaining on him in the Arkansas Derby), so I'm likely to revise my opinion and toss him. If I audible and use one of the others in this quintet, it may be Hold Me Back. (I had a severe case of Court Vision fevor last year, so perhaps Mott's entry this year can make amends!) Ultimately, I envision keying Desert Party come hell or high water. Some denigrate his chances, insisting he's apt to be simply too slow, but Hell, many are also saying the same thing about FF, right? What I find rather amusing, though, is that many are quick to insist that because Todd Pletcher, a three-time Eclipse Award winning trainer, has gone 0-21 in the Derby, he's too good a trainer to remain on the schneid forever and that he's "due" to win a Derby eventually -- and it's apt to be this year, with Dunkirk. Well, I think that's a fatuous argument, if only because Dunkirk doesn't know about Pletcher's past failures and can only run to his ability. Moreover, I can only point out that Godolphin has won 146 G-1 races throguhout the world -- just think of how breathtakingly astounding that accomplishment that really is! -- and yet they were shut for five consecutive years in the Derby, ending in 2002, when Essence of Dubai finished nineth. Chastened, they haven't even returned for seven years, although Lord knows with their stable, they've certainly had the firepower to have thrown something into the mix during this time. So now they're back again this year. And that's why I'll take a chance with DP, who I think will be a generous  overlay.

On a somewhat unrelated point, I've seen Pioneer of the Nile's workouts and read that he's looked really good on the track, but I do recall Colonel John, another  California import, leaving the familiarity of the synethics behind and trying dirt in last year's edition of the race, only to check in a dismal sixth. (I seem to recall him getting the worst of it, but he wasn't winning even if he had a dream trip.) I only bring up this matter because I'm wondering if anyone here remembers how Colonel John WORKED OUT last year at Churchill Downs, prior to the Derby. Answes anyone? I know workouts sometimes get over-valued by handicappers, but my feeeling is that working out well at Churchill Downs (like Street Sense did) can sometimes be a bit more significant than some think. Hence, I'm trying to discern if there was any hint last year that Colonel John might not have been taking well to teh Churchill Downs strip; if so, well, then there's perhaps a greater reason, if only by a smidge, to suppose that POTN might show vast improvement in his speed figures on the dirt, as did IWR, rather than to be a similar bust. So, who has a memory good enough to tell me how Colonel John worked last year at Churchill?

Thanks to anyone who might know!

Phileboy 29 Apr 2009 7:34 AM

I know Appolo was the last horse to win Derby not raced as 2 year old. Does anyone know how many horses have attempted to win the derby w/o racing as a 2yr old?

MILKBUD 29 Apr 2009 8:53 AM

for longshots i like cc musket man and general quarters if the track comes up sloppy i like ff and desert party on a fast dry track i like ff to win and six others in an exacta tri and super..that cc dunkirk p.o.n. musket man general quarters and i.w.r. in no particular order...

J.B.STONED 29 Apr 2009 8:56 AM

For Big Red,

    Great Info, Comments spot on...

    One Long Shot, I don't think anyone mentioned,  "Summer Bird"..., He closed from last to finish a close third in the Arkansas Derby, Summer Bird held his own in the Arkansas Derby despite making his stakes debut in only his third lifetime start. He is by a Belmont winner and out of a mare by a Preakness winner.

    Bottom Line, Have him coming in third or forth....

Greg J. 29 Apr 2009 8:58 AM

This is quality loaded field and the good news is that we are in front of three very exiting triple crowm races. Very difficult to choose the winer but worth to take a shot.

Hoping young jockey Talamo will show again he is cool enough as in the Wood, I will go with I Want Revenge. He´s all about courage and can rate, make the lead or come from behind. It is difficult to find a versatile horse in a 20 horse field and that can make the difference. His damsire Roy gives him the stamina for the distance.

Second choice is no doubt Friesan Fire, another versatile horse that is very pro and LJ knows what to do. Again his dam line will provide the strengh to stay and if it rains ...

I´m sticking with young riders as my third choice and longshot is Regal Ramson with my fellow peruvian Alan on top, who knows how to wire a field and he did wis this horse in Dubai as with Da Tara last years and some others ... There is not to much speed with defections of QR, The Pample, Old F., etc. Watch out if nobody chace him real close.

I do have respect for a lot of others including POTN, Dunkirk, Papa but you have to choose and my superfecta will be completed by Chocolate Candy. He´ll come from behind ans is another proven pro by an undefeated sire that will give us plenty to talk about in the following years.

Good luck to everybody.

The Peruvian 29 Apr 2009 9:35 AM

Chocolate Candy definitely. His second in SA Derby showed its longer the better.

Very interesting pedigree. By champion miler Candy Ride out of a

"double copy' mare ( which make him an x-factor horse).The dam,Crownette is by

Seattle Slew, a triple crown winner,

by Alydar, second to Affirmed in all three triple crown races, out

of In Memory, a half sister to Affirmed, a triple crown winner, by Crafty Admiral, a champion older

Handicap male, out of a Blue Hen mare Wont Tell you, dam of four stakes winner including Affirmed.

The 4th damsire, Volcanic broke four course records.

GOOD LUCK TO US CHOCOLATE LOVER!!

EddieSr 29 Apr 2009 10:05 AM

For those of you who consider Papa Clem then you have to like Summer Bird, if you watch the Arkansas Derby Summer Bird was closing fastest of all, that was only a mile and one eighth, any longer Summer Bird would have won.  The Derby is 1/8 longer, "Bingo" go to the window and cash in,lol.

Roamin 29 Apr 2009 10:11 AM

I was on the backside Tuesday morning and talked to the exercise rider of both Regal Ransom and Desert Party. He told me that Regal Ransom trained himself into that Dubai win, and that DP was not geared up as he could of been. The track was pure speed, and DP still closed at the end. DP is sitting on a big race, and they expect him to run great on Derby day, and all indications right now say he will. With that said, RR is going to the front with Pletchers horse, Join in the Dance. FF, DP and POTN will be stalking, and the next tier will be IWR, MM, and GQ, with Dunkirk and CC near the back. If the fractions are faster than 47, the closers might have a shot, but I beleive they will be about 47 and change, setting up great for FF, POTN and DP. Hold Me Back is my long shot. I do not like Dunkirk at all..

Billy's Empire 29 Apr 2009 10:16 AM

win willy is out horses are droping like flys out of this race at a rate of 1 a day.we got 3 days left.

beast1997 29 Apr 2009 11:00 AM

Phileboy: Colonel John fired a bullet last year

Milkbud: Im not 100% sure but I want to say 46 horses have tried

jshandler 29 Apr 2009 11:02 AM

To Big Red, Excellent analysis of the FL derby.

I look at the derby as a unique race, and find that looking for a key race can be very successful.  Secondly, until one wins, I will throw out the synthethic surface horses - which was a very good indicator last year's thoughout the triple crown.  

Where do I stand today?  The FL Derby is the prep race with the strongest field to date.  However, with the scratch of Quality Road, the significance of this race is reduced, or perhaps "negative".  My view of Dunkirk in the FL Derby is, like Big Red's, Dunkirk ran a big race (as I said in the strongest 3yo field of the preps), but finished tired.  Can he rebound?  Without the foundation, not in my view.  Look for him in the Travers, or maybe the Preakness, the home for late bloomers.

So what is the key race?  I believe it is the the Wood.  IWR is the obvious favorite for the Derby.  Just A Coincidence ran a strong third, and West Side Bernie greatly improved with a strong close to finish second.  

Out of this group, West Side Bernie is measurably the most improved horse in the Derby.  His brisnet time jumped to 107, ran 4 wide and  closed for second vs the derby favorite, and has a 2yo foundation.  The primary question is his ability to get 1 1/4 mile.  So, look to West Side Bernie to be on the board.

FYI - this is my first participitaion to this forum, but I did have the triple last year, and the triple and superfecta in the Preakness.....good luck to all.

Twostep 29 Apr 2009 11:23 AM

Put Nowhere to Hide in Win Willy's place. Yet one more horse that has Zero shot. I few eeks ago it appeared we might have a Derby in which 18 or 19 of the horses have a real, although maybe small, chance to win. However, Atomic Rain, Nowhere to Hide, and Join in the Dance have entered the field this week, joining Mine That Bird, and Advice. Flying Private has the slimmest of chances, only because I think he will show speed and was impreded by Ziegfeld in the Ark Derby. Mr Hot Stuff and Summer Bird have promise, but they appear considerably behind others in development, and have yet to prove themselves as consistent graded stakes performers.

Jason:

What are you hearing about General Quarters, Musket Man, Papa Clem, Summer Bird, and Flying Private?

Last week, GQ was supposed to have not looked impressive, but most feel he has turned things around. I've been reading some negative opinions regarding the condition of Summer Bird, Musket Man, and especially Papa Clem.

GunBow 29 Apr 2009 12:06 PM

TO HORSWLD: Looking at Derby final times since 1959 (50 races), 33 were won in final times between 2:01.00 and 2:02.80. Only six were won in under 2:01.00. On the slow side, 11 were won in 2:03.00 or slower, but only four over 2:03.60.

As mentioned above, I only have complete fractions for the last seven derbies. However, they are a good sampling of the historical range of final times. Here they are, listed from fastest final time to slowest:

22.28 - 45.38 - 1:09.59 - 1:35.75 - 2:01.13

22.63 - 46.07 - 1:10.48 - 1:35.88 - 2:01.19

22.78 - 46.23 - 1:10.88 - 1:36.56 - 2:01.36

22.96 - 46.26 - 1:11.13 - 1:36.70 - 2:01.82

22.99 - 46.73 - 1:11.14 - 1:37.02 - 2:02.17

23.25 - 47.04 - 1:11.75 - 1:37.04 - 2:02.75

23.30 - 47.04 - 1:11.80 - 1:37.35 - 2:04.06

No one can predict the actual fractions of a race until they run it, but you can use this data to get a realistic view of the fractions we're likely to see on Saturday.

Horses will run slower the farther they go (Secretariat being the only documented exception in history). In the overwhelming majority of derbies, the winner sits within a few lengths of the lead in the early going, moves up to the leaders by the head of the stretch, then has a good closing kick.

Here are the final quarter-mile times for the last seven derbies: :24.58, :24.51, :24.40, :25.12, :25.15, :26.11, and :26.31. Most Derby opening quarters are run in :22 or :23 and change, so you can see that the winner's closing kick doesn't have to be blazing fast. On average, the winner just has to have enough stamina to kick home in roughly a :24 to :25 and change final quarter.

As for wet vs. dry tracks, the term "sloppy" means a very wet, waterlogged surface with water pooling up. Churchill Downs historically has a high clay content in the track surface. When muddy, it can be "cuppy," meaning that when a horse strides on it, the hoof forms a distinct print on the surface. Muddy, cuppy tracks can be sticky and tiring.

This morning, the CD main track was listed as muddy. Here's a photo of the track taken this morning during workouts and before maintenance: www.churchilldowns.com/.../backside3.jpg

A sloppy track would not hold such distinct hoofprints, and would appear more like soup.

Most track maintenance managers will "seal" a dirt track when it rains. In other words, they roll and compact the surface so that water runs off the surface and drains away. Therefore, running on a sloppy dirt track is roughly comparable to running at the edge of the surf on a beach.

"Opening" a track surface after it's been sealed means they harrow it deeper to break up the compaction. However, even when a track is opened, some compaction can remain and the track would tend to get harder as it dries. A harder, compacted track produces faster running times on average.

I hope this info helps.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 12:07 PM

TO GERONIMO2123: In your 29 Apr 2009 3:02 AM post, you wrote, "Musket Man's final 3 furlongs at 1-1/8 miles was not 38.01, it was 37.07."

I have been using an online time calculator (C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\My Documents\Horse Racing\Time_Calculator.html) to break down the fractions.

According to the Daily Racing Form chart for the Illinios Derby, the fractions were: :23.84, :47.67, 1:12.30, 1:37.44, 1:49.91. Using that time calculator, I subtracted 1:12.30 from 1:49.91. The result is :38.01.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 12:24 PM

TO DRAYNAY: At 28 Apr 2009 10:22 PM, you posted: "IF he doesn't I will come back here and tell you how wrong I was and ask for forgiveness but if I am right and I am pretty sure I am, come back here and tell me again all the reasons he couldn't win. Deal ?"

See, that's the difference between you and me. For me, this is all about fun, not ego. I do my best to analyze the big races based on all I've learned in 49 years watching Thoroughbreds run. Such experience also informs me that even the very, very best pro handicappers will win only about 30% of the time. So anyone whose ego can't take being wrong a lot, shouldn't be handicapping horses. If we all have to go around apologizing every time we lost a horse race, none of us would have time for anything else.

I'm calling it like I see it with Dunkirk (and all the others). If I turn out to be wrong, so be it. I'm no pro handicapper and rarely bet the races. I just like talking horses and racing, and sharing info that might help others. You are free to take it or leave it, as you wish.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 1:14 PM

I will wait to find out what the track will be like on Saturday but this race is really going to be perfect for Dunkirk.  He is simply going to follow him to the top of the lane an then blow by him in stretch.  This should be a very easy race for Dunkirk.

draynay 29 Apr 2009 1:48 PM

For Big Red:

Thanks for the info on past Derby fractions and the difference between surface conditions.

Isn't 1:49.91 - 1:12.30 = 37.61, or 37 and 3?  Additionally, because Musket Man was not on the lead at 6 furlongs, his 6 furlong time would not be 1:12.30. Instead, he was 3 lengths off the lead, or 3/5th (.60). Thus, Musket Man's individual 6 furlong split was 1:12.90 (112 and 4).  

1:49.91 - 1:12.90 = 37.01 (37 flat).  

If you did the same thing for the other horses, you got the final 3 furlongs for the race, but not neceessarily the winner's individual final 3 furlong time unless the winner was in front after 6 furlongs.

GunBow 29 Apr 2009 2:14 PM

The winner's odds will be double digits.Big payoff for those that go for double digit odds.

Sitting Bull 29 Apr 2009 2:23 PM

Big Red maybe you can help me out with this... how many horses in the Derby have run a mile fraction in a 1 1/8th race under 1:37 ?  Since most Derby's seem to be run under that split time....

draynay 29 Apr 2009 2:39 PM

Ok folks it's time for a nay nay reality check. What you have here are just a few of draynay's comments from his previous posts about what he really thinks of Dunkirk. Read them and get a good laugh. This guy is not to be taken seriously, he can't even remember from one day to another who he likes. So now all of a sudden Dunkirk is his chosen one?  

"Every time I talk or think about Dunkirk I get sick to my stomach. The same feeling I got last year when everyone told me how good Colonel John was last year."

"I am saying a colt from Unbridled Song CAN'T win the Derby."

"Dunkirk ? You have to be kidding!  Dunkirk is not a derby horse and the total lack of foundation makes him a toss in the Derby."

"No races at 2 and only 3 races going into the Derby?  There is nothing here... move along."

"Dunkirk... you have to be joking."

"Can the Dunkirk fans please explain WHY you want to see this tired horse run again before the Derby ??? Even if he was to run again do you really think he would be a factor running AGAIN in the Kentucky Derby?  If you do you need to be told these are animals and not machines.  ANYONE who witnessed the Florida Derby saw Dunkirk was a very very tired horse.  Enough already...let it go."

"Dunkirk...lol.. get real."

"If Pletcher was a football coach he would have been fired long ago. 0 for 21 in the Derby tells you he has no idea how to get a horse ready for the Derby."

"For the record Dunkirk and Old Fashioned have no chance at all in the Derby and any money bet on them will be a complete waste."

"I just saw Jeff Siegel place Dunkirk No. 1 on his derby list.  Is he serious? SIMPLY unreal."

This guy is a hoot!! He has no idea what he's talking about ever but he loves to bash you.

gw_bushwacker 29 Apr 2009 2:41 PM

The post position draw seemed to work out well for everyone. By the way nice article Jason that you and your co-workers wrote. The speed is where they want to be and the deep closers are where they want to be. Does anyone know how far it is to the first turn from where the gate is set up?

Wanda 29 Apr 2009 2:47 PM

hold me back is a non-contender .his fastest true speed-rating is an 88 in lane end.very slow in this derby.

steve s 29 Apr 2009 3:02 PM

I guess you have no pick huh... just what I thought.  Bushwacker come to the party with a horse I am not crazy about Dunkirk winning this Derby but there is no horse in the race that can stop him.  I am not a Dunkirk fan but you have to face facts... with what is left he can win without even really trying against this field.

draynay 29 Apr 2009 3:06 PM

Bushwacker---Although your 2:41 P.M. post is amusing, it is also almost sad at this point. True, but sad.

Gunbow---Regarding your 2:14 P.M. post...I didn't understand the arithmetic either. Thanks for helping to clarify.

Karen in Texas 29 Apr 2009 3:10 PM

TO GUNBOW: You wrote, "If you did the same thing for the other horses, you got the final 3 furlongs for the race, but not necessarily the winner's individual final 3 furlong time unless the winner was in front after 6 furlongs."

I'm not looking at it that finely. Also, I prefer to work off actual published race times, not estimations. A winner has to close off whatever actual fractions are set. That's what I'm looking at. It gives a good sense of the winner's quickness late. I'm certain that if someone goes to the trouble of estimating and calculating the individual fractions for each winning horse in each 2-turn prep, the closing-time order will be the same.

Like all other handicapping measures, it's a rule-of-thumb, no more, no less. Horses rarely run the same twice, so a rule-of-thumb is more than sufficient to guage what I'm looking for here.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 3:21 PM

DRAYNAY, I'm sorry, but I simply don't have enough data to give you an answer re how many horses have run a mile in 1:37 or less in a 1 1/8m race.

It would be great to have a computer program that could calculate the individual fractions of horses in a race. I do all my research and calcs by hand, so don't have the time or tools to come up with that kind of data.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 3:25 PM

FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT POST POSITION STATS: The following post position stats are for the 69 KD's run since 1940, the first year the starting gate was used for the Kentucky Derby.

To emphasize, this info is since 1940 only. The average number of starters per derby: 15. Number of derbies with fewer than 10 starters: 6. Number with 10 to 15 starters: 29. Number with over 15 starters: 34.

PP 1 - 6 winners

PP 2 - 7 winner

PP 3 - 5 winners

PP 4 - 4 winners

PP 5 - 5 winners

PP 6 - 2 winners

PP 7 - 5 winners

PP 8 - 6 winner

PP 9 - 4 winners

PP 10 - 8 winners

PP 11 - 1 winner

PP 12 - 3 winners

PP 13 - 3 winners

PP 14 - 2 winners

PP 15 - 3 winners

PP 16 - 3 winners

PP 17 - 0 winner

PP 18 - 1 winners

PP 19 - 0 winner

However, the trend since 1980 does not favor horses with inside PP's. From 1980 thru 1989, winners came from PP 1, 3, 7, 10 (4x), 11, 15 and 18. From 1990 thru 1999, winners came from PP 3, 5 (twice), 6, 8 (twice), 10, 15 and 16 (twice). Since 2000, winners came from PP 5 (twice), 7, 8, 10, 13, 15, 16 and 20.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 3:28 PM

FF will love it if the track is slop on saturday.Any other horses who like the slop?

2 time valley player of the year 29 Apr 2009 4:36 PM

TO KAREN IN TEXAS and GUNBOW: The rule of thumb that 1/5th equals a length is only an estimation. Without timing each horse in a race individually, all we can do is estimate their individual fractions, and most people do it using this rule of thumb.

Do a Google search on this question: How accurate is 1/5th of a second equals a length in horse racing? You'll get over 473,000 hits, with all sorts of ways to calculate fractions, pace, etc.

So, lacking computerized tools to maybe do it better, I just use the "raw" closing time as a rule of thumb. If either of you has the time, how about doing the individualized calcs and posting them here?

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 5:17 PM

Only one horse has run a mile under 137 going 1 1/8th and since that is the average Derby pace only 1 horse has proven he can run that average Derby pace.  I think we all agree the real running starts after a mile.

Dunkirk is the only horse to run a mile split running in the Derby UNDER 1:36... fact is no other horse did in under 1:37 !  So Dunkirk has been more than a FULL SECOND faster.  Food for thought !

draynay 29 Apr 2009 5:24 PM

ALL: Mike Welsch, the Daily Racing Form clocker, wrote the following about Dunkirk in his column this morning: "Dunkirk is a slightly built colt who does not carry a lot of weight, and there is some thinking that he could still be feeling the effects of his hard effort in the Florida Derby."

For Mr. Hot Stuff fans, Mike Welsch reports that the colt "made a very nice appearance Wednesday while putting in a strong gallop of his own."

Several Derby horses schooled in the gate this morning. Mike Welsch reports:

"I was eager to see how Friesan Fire bounced back out of his extremely fast and taxing workout Monday, and he passed the test with flying colors. He was on his toes and very happy during a busy morning that included the aforementioned visit to the gate and a brief trip to the paddock. He looked like he wanted to do much more than trainer Larry Jones had scheduled and actually seemed to come out of his work looking a bit more fluid than he went in."

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 5:40 PM

ALL: Only the owners of Win Willy (now withdrawn), Friesan Fire and Papa Clem opened their horses' full medication histories for this New York Times article: www.nytimes.com/.../30racing.html

The records show that Friesan Fire has "received nothing but vitamins and electrolytes since arriving in Kentucky from Louisiana, though he has been treated by a chiropractor."

If there was any justice in this world, Friesan Fire and Papa Clem would finish 1-2 in the Derby.

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 6:05 PM

Big Red---All I'm saying is that 1:49.91 minus 1:12.30 is not 38.01 as you stated in your 12:24 P.M. post. It is 37.61. Both Gunbow and Geronimo took it a step further, saying that MM's individual time could be adjusted to 37.01.

Karen in Texas 29 Apr 2009 6:15 PM

Draynay,

I still think you are putting too much into the times.  Those times you keep quoting were done at different tracks.  That doesn't mean the horse will run that same time at CD or even come close.   I think it comes down to the ability of the horse to handle a rough trip, handling the huge crowd and having to split horses to get position unless they get a dream trip and some do.  the KD isn't like any other race because of the size of the field.  It's hard to guess the outcome when a horse has never run with that many and never will again.  So many factors and so many variables.  This looks to be a hell of race and I'm excited to see who does it.

Monica V 29 Apr 2009 6:28 PM

    Dray, here we go again with you just wanting to look at raw times without taking anything else into consideration.  It's an absolute joke.  Someone has previously mentioned it, but if you really want to see how raw times transfer, simply look at the Withers last weekend.  Based on raw times and speed figures, This Ones For Phil should have easily beaten Mr. Fantasy by 8-10 lengths.  Well, obviously that didn't happen so just going off raw times is a huge mistake.  Go ahead and pick Dunkirk to win.  If he does win, nobody will give you credit, it's that simple.  You can boast that you had the winner and told everybody, but you're only allowed so many mulligans.  If Dunkirk finishes up the track would you be willing to concede that maybe the FL Derby was a negative key race and not what you thought it was?  Throw enough darts at the board and eventually one can hit a bullseye.

Curlin 29 Apr 2009 7:28 PM

For Big Red interesting article  but for one comment.They talk about how the "lower levels" have less chances to start. Quite the reverse as bottom claiming races are written on average every day in the condition book. NW/Y,NW/2 etc. You could run them every week except for running or entry dates depending on the track.

Wanda 29 Apr 2009 7:51 PM

Big Red---Actually I can't speak for G and G. I'm sorry. Perhaps you could go back and reread their posts at 2:14 P.M. and 3:02 A.M. today. Again, I'm sorry.

That a couple of the owners have opened their medication logs for inspection is a step in the right direction. Thanks for calling that to our attention.

Karen in Texas 29 Apr 2009 7:52 PM

SITTING BULL:  Mine that bird you've been having for supper...turns visions into nightmares.  Here's a prediction for you, Friesan Fire is going to blow your psychic fuse on Saturday.  After that no more bull.  Okay?

Ranagulzion 29 Apr 2009 7:59 PM

MonicaV you are 100% right.  I am sharing with you my angles and what is leading me to my top choice.  I am putting the Beyer, splits, and final times together with the visuals to come to a conclusion.  His 6f split and mile split in the Florida Derby were MUCH faster than any other horse in the Derby at the distance.  His Maiden race was a large field and he got stuck behind a wall of horses while waiting he finally found some room and swung out wide and blew by the field.  His next race made headlines because of his very wide first turn and his Florida Derby speaks for itself and with his final time and Beyer. The thing to understand is this MonicaV... any move forward by this horse puts him out of reach.  If you want to believe his 4th race will only be AS GOOD as his 3rd he is still out of reach unless a few others improve greatly.  I like my odds.  Good luck.

Draynay 29 Apr 2009 8:00 PM

Boy bushwacker that was funny. I have to add that draynay is right about Dunkirk's interior fractions though. They appear to stand out above the others. I do agree with you though that draynay was insistant that no horse sired by unbridleds song could ever win a Derby. He does change his mind after making some outrageous claims when it seems to suit him. That's why I don't put much stock in anything he says.

Back to Dunkirk. I give him a shot here but he's not alone. He's run faster perhaps because he had to. Without a 2nd place or better in the Fla. Derby all hopes were gone for a Derby start. He was primed for a big race that day and up against not only Quality Road but Theregoesjojo who had put up a nice 100+ Beyer fig in his previous. It appeared to his connections that he needed a very fast race to get at least second so he was forced to run those fractions to keep up. In other words he had to. Remember how tired he was when the race was over? If he tires like that after a little over a mile again forget it. Different track, different situation, all things are not equal here. A horse like Friesan Fire for instance was brought up to this race in a very orchestrated manner by one of the best in the game. I don't think we have seen his best yet. He's capable of going faster. I give him a big shot to win. If I Want Revenge hasn't peaked too early he'll be more than a handful. Desert Party has been compromised by his post draw. This is not 2008 where it was an inherant advantage to draw post 20. Unlike last year there are more runners even with the defections this week. Desert Party doesn't have the turn of foot to clear the others. He'll be stuck wide or have to lay back and fall too far behind in order to save ground. I liked him until the draw. Baffert is high on Pioneer Of The Nile but I look at his works and they don't seem to fit Baffert's normal pattern. He always seems to work them fast and you are likely to see a bullet before a big race like this. Pioneer Of The Niles works have been good but not up to the standards I'm used to seeing from a Baffert horse. Makes me qusetion him. I'm going to say Hold Me Back and Chocolate Candy are my top choices to crack the exotics.

Best of luck to all you with the courage to put your money where your mouth is. I'll spread mine out and see what happens. After all I'm a gambler and a gambler never puts all his eggs in one basket. Last year I played Big Brown on top only, nowhere else and just in case he faltered I was covered. Sure it cost me a couple of dollars but when I hit the Super once and the Tri multiple times it mattered none. Sometimes it's harder to handicap the second thru fourth place finishers than it is to handicap the winner. Last year turned out to be one of them. There was no huge challenge to pick the winner in a field so weak, it was picking those to finish on the board behind him that stumped most people.

the_wiz 29 Apr 2009 8:14 PM

I've been quiet all season, mainly because I just wanted to wait and see how the horses all developed.

I've decided to go with Friesan Fire! I just love the way he's progressed so far this year, and with the good reports about him right now, he's just the one I had to choose. Plus, he is just one gorgeous animal.

Best of luck to all of us, and all of the horses and their connections. Here's to a safe and happy Derby Day!

Melissa 29 Apr 2009 9:04 PM

TO KAREN IN TEXAS: Re your 29 Apr 2009 7:52 PM post, no need to apologize. As we discussed before, the slowness of this particular board format makes it difficult to carry on a more natural written conversation. You are just trying to share your opinions and info, like the rest of us, and I appreciate all of your posts, whether or not you agree with me on any given point. :)

For Big Red 29 Apr 2009 9:09 PM

Thanks for everyones comments, it's interesting seeing all the opinions. Special thanks to Big Red for all the data.

Have to disagree with Wiz a bit about Desert Party. I think he does have enough speed to put himself in position, especially against a fairly slow field. I ask you, is there a big difference between #19 and #16 (POTN)? I think post positions are overrated.

Anyway, back with a full analysis on Thursday afternoon. Thanks again!

jshandler 29 Apr 2009 9:32 PM

Jason,

If Desert Party can break alertly and avoid getting parked out wide he has a good shot. I do like the way he's coming into the race and since I have him on top and underneath in exactas from pools two and three I won't have to worry about laying anything more on him come saturday. I can afford to keep him off any new tickets I buy. If his odds climb that may be another story. As for his post position he's in much better shape then being stuck down inside. There is usually more room to manuever on the outside and maybe that will make the difference. He's not a total toss but i'll be more conservative with him now.

the_wiz 29 Apr 2009 10:08 PM

Forecast is DEFINITELY going to play a major role in handicapping this race!!!! 70% chance of rain on OAKS Fri. and Scattered showers approximately 50% chance...HMM,HMM makes one think who will TAKE to an off-track...BIG RED(GREAT Horse though, still have issues w/ a bobby-pin and Spec.Bid would be w/ HIM) if weather is going to play a definitive role Sat. Friesan Fire not only has proven himself in the slop, but as WE all know on an off-track at Churchill, the inside track seems to be ALOT faster and FF is in PRIME position at #6.

The Bid 29 Apr 2009 11:49 PM

"Only one horse has run a mile under 137 going 1 1/8th and since that is the average Derby pace only 1 horse has proven he can run that average Derby pace.  I think we all agree the real running starts after a mile.

Dunkirk is the only horse to run a mile split running in the Derby UNDER 1:36... fact is no other horse did in under 1:37 !  So Dunkirk has been more than a FULL SECOND faster..."

Wrong again Dray.  Go back at look at the splits for the AR Derby and the SA Derby and you'll see that both Papa Clem and POTN, respectively, were on the lead at the mile point and those splits were under 1:37.  Both were at 1:36 and change.  You could even say that Mine That Bird was just under 1:37 judging by the fractions for the Sunland Park Derby and his position at the mile point.  By the way, looking at Mine That Bird's past performances and those fractions, I'd be willing to bet he's right up there with JITD & Regal Ransom on the front end.  He won't last, but he'll be there for the 1st 6f.

Curlin 30 Apr 2009 12:42 AM

Draynay, you're a funny guy, although unfortunately for you, it's doubtlessly unintentionial on your part. Gw_bushwacker really took you to woodshed by pointing out how you had insisted, time and time again, in comments you posted here, how Dunkirk was essentially a no-talent stumblebum -- and look, now you've become a convert, not unlike someone who succumbed to demon rum only to prostelytze against about the virtues of abstinence! In between your rants denigrating others' opinions, ask yourself, "Am I really so lacking in self-awareness not to realize how my postings seem so silly to so many so often." And as for your doctrinaire insistence that Dunkirk's interior splits somehow make him ready to have his picture taken in the winner's circle even before the Derby is run, well, I want to remind you of just two words: Bellamy Road!

Phileboy 30 Apr 2009 2:50 AM

This is for you ROAMIN;

Summer Bird, by Birdstone, won Belmont S., by Grindstone, won Kentucky Derby, by Unbridled, won Kentucky erby, Preakness S.

The damsire Summer Squall won Preakness S., 2nd in Kentucky Derby,

2nd damsire, Alysheba, won Kentucky

Derby, Pewakness S., 4th Belmont S.

3rd damsire Nijinsky, English Triple crown winner.

Summer Bird is part of my exotics but will set aside a small amount for win. Hope he runs at Belmont.

EddieSr 30 Apr 2009 3:19 AM

FOR BIG RED,

Thank you so much for your wisdom. I agree with your thoughts and wish you nothing but the best. God bless you and God bless all who will be watching and partaking in the greatest race in the world.

GO "FRIESAN FIRE"!

Horswld 30 Apr 2009 7:43 AM

Come on Dray give it up Dunkirk is not QR and has no shot. I heard Dunkirk is not that big of a horse and QR was a beast! Team QR is on the shelf. Dont start hyping Dunkirk he is not that baller. Go with your gut buddy and get on  CC bandwagon he has a live chance to win and you know it!

anti draynay 30 Apr 2009 8:50 AM

Curlin ... your right I missed those two but the point remains the same Dunkirk ran a full second faster than those two and almost 2 seconds faster than the rest of the field.

Phileboy... I am fully aware of what I said about Dunkirk.  However, the Florida Derby changed my mind and when Quality Road went down I HAD to admit who the best horse left standing was....Dunkirk.

Say what you want the fact is Dunkirk is going to win this race and I have to be honest and call it like I see it.  Things change but the funny thing is months ago I thought the most talented 3 year old was a horse named Rachael Alexandra... I was told I was crazy back then and told to pick a real horse..... what do I know right... come back here after the Derby and let me know how Dunkirk finished......I promise you BUSHWACK won't have the winner.

Draynay 30 Apr 2009 9:16 AM

Horswld,

    I posted this on other blog For "For Big Red" regarding Fire's #6 Post:

    Honestly, At this point in time, I have blinkers on, Nothing can sway me from Friesan Fire, The Six post isn't perfect for him, but he has won before with traffic to his left and right, Blinkers play a big part for his concentration, I think he will be at or near the front(3rd or fourth maybe) at the turn, BUT with the forecast for rain(YES!), I am now thinking he will be on the lead at turn, and go wire to wire....wishfull thinking, yes, but with so few horses in the field who have actually run on a off track, it is more and more possibe...

    Only six of the 20 Derby starters have ever raced on a track listed as other than fast: Desert Party, Flying Private, Friesan Fire, Join in the Dance, Nowhere to Hide, and Papa Clem. And, In my opinion, of those, Fire and Desert Party are the only legit contenders...

    Muddy or OFF Tracks info:

Desert Party won the six-furlong, Grade II Sanford over a muddy track last year.

Flying Private was fifth, beaten 11 1/2 in his sole off-track try.

Friesan Fire won the Grade II Louisiana Derby on the slop by 7 1/4 over Papa Clem.

Join in the Dance finished second in his debut on the slop, but in the six-furlong NATC Futurity last year on a sloppy track, he was fourth by 13.

Nowhere to Hide, in his third start, was second by a half going a mile on a muddy/sealed track at Belmont Park.

No other runners have off track experience.

Also, On Chocolate Candy:

     A few of the Reasons why I think Chocolate Candy will be third or second to Fire:

1. His race in the Santa Anita Derby was huge. Former jockey great Gary Stevens, who did the TV commentary for NBC, said he would have upset Pioneerof The Nile if the pace hadn't been so slow.

2.  There's a big chance it'll rain on Friday and Saturday, and, says assistant trainer Galen May, "He just loves the mud. I hope it does rain."

3. Hollendorfer, who is headquartered in Northern California, is always in the conversation, along with Bill Mott and Todd Pletcher, when the topic is "Best Trainer Who Has Never Won the Derby." He has never gotten to the starting gate with a horse as good as this one.

4. His pedigree indicates he'll like the Derby's mile and a quarter, which is an eighth of a mile farther than any of the contenders has won. His sire, Candy Ride, won the Pacific Classic and his dam, Crownette, is a daughter of 1977 Triple Crown winner Seattle Slew.

5. Instead of sticking with Russell Baze, who rode him in both his Golden Gate Fields victories, Hollendorfer has opted for Derby veteran Smith, who won the roses with the longshot Giacomo in 2005 and has finished second three times in his 15 Derby rides since 1984. In two Derby rides, Baze finished 13th and 14th.

   Assuming that everybody who likes chocolate candy won't bet on Chocolate Candy in the Derby, he ought to be a big price - maybe 40 to 1 or better.

  Worth a shot....

Good Luck, Horswld....

Greg J. 30 Apr 2009 11:02 AM

Greg J.,

Thank you for all of your comments and thoughts. The more I look at CC the more I like him but I still don't know where I would put him. Of course I have to put our boy "Fire" on top. Blinkers, yea, I'm wearing them too. I would like to see the track come up muddy but I don't think it matters either way. Just can't see him losing. Anything is possible but I have to stick with my guns on this.

Much good luck to you, Greg J.!!!!

See you on the other side........

Horswld 01 May 2009 3:16 PM

I had not looked at MM.  I kind of like him...the Cherokee Run influences.  He may be this years Recapturetheglory.  He could run an "even" fourth and hit the superfecta.  

Householder 01 May 2009 7:46 PM

Well done Jason.  I hope you save a few dollars to play these!  Thanks for stearing me towards MM.  MM, Papa Clem, Chocolate Candy, and Summer Bird (picked the wrong Birdstone) were all included in my exotics with POTN on TOP!  The dreaded Santa Anita curse lives on!  

Householder 02 May 2009 7:29 PM

Where were the real Long Shots - Atomic Rain, Summer Bird, and WINNER!!! Mine that Bird?

merrywriter 03 May 2009 2:35 PM

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