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Kentucky Derby Analysis and Selections

It seems as though it was light years ago that names like Vineyard Haven, Midshipman, Charitable Man, Old Fashioned and Square Eddie were at the top of many of our watch lists. More recently, Quality Road, who was perhaps the probable post time favorite, was at the center of everyone's attention. With none of those colts even making it to the starting gate, it just goes to show you how hard it is to win this race.

And so here we are here, finally, left with 20 horses standing (and probably 8-10 that don't belong) for a chance at Kentucky Derby 135. You could say nearly every year that "the Derby is wide open," but that phrase is especially true in 2009. From talking to people at Churchill all week, it seems that almost everyone has a different opinion.

For what it's worth, here is my analysis on the Derby, including a few sentences about the chances of each, and a final selection.

First off, from a pace scenario, I believe that Join in the Dance, Regal Ransom, Nowhere to Hide and even Mine That Bird will be the quickest out of the gate and take the field into the first turn. I don't expect a pedestrian pace, but something in the range of :23 and change and :47 and change. By six furlongs I expect Chocolate Candy, Desert Party, Friesan Fire, Pioneerof the Nile, I Want Revenge, Musket Man and perhaps General Quarters to get involved.

Weather could play a significant role. It is raining as I write this on Thursday morning, and there is a 60% chance of rain on both Oaks and Derby days, which means there is a decent possibility the track will come up wet. For horses like Pioneerof the Nile and Chocolate Candy who have raced exclusively on synthetics, how will they handle an off track?

And now the horses. First, the ones I give little chance of hitting the board and even a smaller chance at winning. Some of you will disagree with these, but the Derby is all about elimination. You can't back everyone.

Advice: One of three WinStar starters, Lexington winner was off-the-board in only start on natural dirt and doesn't look like he's fast enough to be any kind of factor. Enters off two-week layoff.

Atomic Rain: A late entry into the dance, his Wood run was decent enough, but the bottom line is, he hasn't won since breaking his maiden last summer and hasn't hit the board in either stakes effort this season.

Flying Private: Has posted just a single victory from 10 lifetime starts, that coming last August in maiden company. Didn't show much of anything in the Arkansas Derby or in his lone effort on a muddy track last year.

Mine That Bird: Highest Beyer speed figure (81) isn't even close to making him a contender. Has shown some speed in the past, but it probably won't last for long. Best races have come on the Woodbine Polytrack.

Mr. Hot Stuff: Yes, he's improving and comes from hot, winning connections, but the fact is he has only a maiden win in seven starts and no dirt experience. He's a good-looking, smallish colt and there is always the possibility he could come flying late off a hot pace, but he's difficult to back.

Summer Bird: Oaklawn shipper's lone win came in a maiden claimer, in mid-March. There are some people who feel he is an exotics possibility based on his Arkansas Derby where he was closing on the leaders late. I say he's in over his head.

West Side Bernie: The second of two starters for Kelly Breen, has plenty of two-turn experience and likes to hang around, but rarely wins. Will probably be too far back turning for home to make any noise.

*The following are horses I feel have the best shot to win or hit the board:

Chocolate Candy: The son of Candy Ride seems to be the longshot pick of many. You can't disregard his recent form, in which he has won three times and hit the board in his last five. And if you like Pioneerof the Nile, how can you leave him out? He lost to him by only a length in the Santa Anita Derby after a five-wide trip and he'll be a much better price than his rival. Has good foundation and is versatile. Don't forget, he showed decent speed in the El Camino Real, so he's not the dead closer that many think. Negatives are that he has no dirt experience and low speed numbers. But Hollendorfer is one of the best out there, so he has to be respected. He will be on the bottom of my exotics.

Desert Party: The more the week has gone on, the more I like this colt. In my opinion, he has taken to the track as well any anyone in the field and looks dead fit. Saeed bin Suroor has been quietly confident in his comments. He hinted at the fact that he wasn't completely geared up for the UAE Derby, when unable to catch stablemate Regal Ransom in the stretch. Many have tossed him after he drew the 19 post. Not me. If you like Pioneerof the Nile and Dunkirk, is there really that much difference between the 15 or 16 post and the 19 post? I don't think it's an issue; he should have enough speed to clear some of the other horses on the first turn and put himself in nice position. The son of Street Cry gives Godolphin its best Derby chance. He will be all over my tickets, including on top in my main trifecta play.

Dunkirk: There are plenty of things to like and dislike about him. If you're a backer, you have to like his tremendous progression in all three starts, including his Florida Derby run when making the big move around the turn. In that last effort, he closed on a speed-biased track and finished up in a terrific time while earning a 108 Beyer. His bullet works since then suggests that he is ready for another big effort. He's obviously a well-bred colt as his $3.7 million price tag backs up. If you're taking a stand against, you can point to the fact that he had no 2-year-old foundation, is making just his fourth start and isn't even a stakes winner. All of this while probably going off as the second choice. Based on talent alone, I feel that he must be included in exotics. Unless he gets stopped, he should make that big middle-move at some point and be a factor turning for home. I have decided not to use him on top because I'm not overly-impressed by his stretch kick, but certainly wouldn't be surprised if he won.

Friesan Fire: If you would have asked me before this week, he wouldn't have been my pick. But with Quality Road out, he is my top choice, for several reasons. I like that he comes into the race fresh. The seven-week layoff isn't a concern. Think about it: How many times in our daily handicapping do we see horses who come off three, four or five-month layoffs to win? It happens all the time, so why is it such a big deal in the Derby? Jones has him ready, proved by his bullet work in :57 and change earlier in the week. He's won three straight and seems to be getting better with each start. I don't think we've seen the bottom of him yet. And you have to love his A.P. Indy pedigree that suggests he'll get the distance and like a wet track, the latter which he proved in the Louisiana Derby. He has the right running style for a Derby winner. I think he'll be closer to the pace than many think, and if he's good enough, will be in perfect position turning for home.

General Quarters: Has two major prep victories over different tracks, a win at Churchill, is more experienced than anyone in the field (11 starts), so many are taking a hard look. Hasn't been the best-looking mover this week, but for me, the addition of Leparoux, who broke Pat Day's single-season meet record at Churchill last year, makes him worth using on all exotics. Also, pedigree-wise, he should relish a wet track.  

Hold Me Back: Not many horses have improved as much as this one since the start of the year. For me, his poor effort on dirt wasn't so much that he had trouble with the surface as it was his physical immaturity, so that's not a big concern. If he gets a solid pace to run at, he's a dangerous closer who will go off at an attractive price for Hall of Fame trainer Bill Mott. That being written, this will be his third race in six weeks, which might be a bit much. My first instinct is to toss him because he'll likely be too far back turning for home, especially if he's caught too wide. He might be sprinkled in the bottom of exotics, however.

I Want Revenge: The Probable post time favorite has to be respected based on Gotham and Wood wins, which were done in completely different ways. He's the only horse in the field with two Beyers over 103 and has enough tactical speed to place himself where Talamo wants. Say what you will about Mullins' checkered past, but he's an outstanding trainer who takes a legitimate horse into his fifth Derby. There are no real weaknesses to speak of here, at least on paper. If you're playing against him winning, which I am, it's because you are looking for a bigger price and hoping his 19-year-old rider makes a mistake in his first Derby. Other than Mr. Fantasy, who looks like a miler, I also don't believe he beat all that much in New York and didn't wow me with his times. Will he be on all exotic tickets? Absolutely. But I am looking to beat the favorite in a wide-open field.

Musket Man: The fact that he won a pair of major Derby preps automatically makes him a legit contender. All he has done is win five of six starts, including a pair of graded stakes at two turns. There aren't many in here that have done that. His pedigree limitation is major concern, but he keeps proving us wrong by outrunning it. Will he do it again? I don't think it's likely, but he speed makes him worth using in exotics at a big price.

Papa Clem: Like Chocolate Candy, if you are backing Pioneerof the Nile this one has to be considered since he finished only a half-length back in Robert Lewis. He proved his versatility and tenacity in Arkansas Derby (101 Beyer) and now has two good starts over dirt, including one on a sloppy track. Running style, which should place him close to the pace, makes him a threat. I like the Thursday blowout by Stute, who obviously felt he needed to stretch the legs. Bejarano has been sensational for a long while too and won't hurt his cause. He'll be a big overlay and certainly deserves to be used on many tickets. Wouldn't be the most shocking upset winner either.

Regal Ransom: The second of two Dubai starters, he defeated Desert Party in the UAE Derby. That, along with his early speed, makes him one to consider. Without anything concrete to base my opinion on, other than reading between the lines in what Suroor is saying, I think he is the weaker of the Godolphin pair and I will not use him.

Pioneerof the Nile: With four consecutive graded stakes scores, all he does is win. And it can be argued that the California horses were the strongest group this prep season. If you ask most people on the backside who were here all week, many would say this colt looked the best, which alleviates many of the concerns about whether he will handle the dirt. It's not an issue. In fact, he could improve on it. Three-time Derby winner Bob Baffert and reigning two-time champion rider Garret Gomez makes him even more attractive, especially since Gomez chose him over Dunkirk. Gomez has won more grade ones than anyone the last two years and is due for a Derby. The main knock on POTN is the Beyers, but there is a good possibility the synthetic numbers are too low. Also, doesn't blow you away with his margin of victories. But he looks just too good not to have on the top end of tickets.

The Pick: If karma plays any role in Derby 135, Larry Jones will get his Derby. After what happened to Eight Belles last year and his upcoming retirement, it would be a storybook ending. That, based on what was written above, has me landing on Friesan Fire as the winner.

After a win bet on Friesan Fire and a smaller one on Desert Party, my biggest ticket will be a trifecta structured the following way:

$1 trifecta - Friesan Fire (6), Pioneerof the Nile (16) and Desert Party (19) with 2,6,7,12,13,15,16,19 with 2,5,6,7,11,12,13,15,16,19. The ticket costs $168.

As for the Oaks, Rachel Alexandra is a beast. I will certainly not try to beat her and she will be a single on my late Pick 4 ticket.

No matter who you settle on, best of luck to everyone. Enjoy the weekend!

139 Comments:

You know me I'm not a big or expert gambler but I'm going to Box a 1$ TRI FF,GQ, and Dunkirk. If I don't like the way Dunkirk looks in the paddock I'll sure look at one of your Dubai starters. If the track is off I'll stay with FF and GQ in an EX Box, maybe even a 5$ one!

Wanda 30 Apr 2009 1:17 PM

Jason,

     Spot on with Analysis!, Frisan Fire is great pick, you have seen the light, lol.  I think Fire will go off as the Post time favorite, due to sloppy track.

     Honestly, At this point in time, I have blinkers on, Nothing can sway me from Friesan Fire, The Six post isn't perfect for him, but he has won before with traffic to his left and right, Blinkers play a big part for his concentration, I think he will be at or near the front(3rd or fourth maybe) at the turn, BUT with the forecast for rain(YES!), I am now thinking he will be on the lead at turn, and go wire to wire....wishfull thinking, yes, but with so few horses in the field who have actually run on a off track, it is more and more possibe...

   Only six of the 20 Derby starters have ever raced on a track listed as other than fast: Desert Party, Flying Private, Friesan Fire, Join in the Dance, Nowhere to Hide, and Papa Clem. And, In my opinion, of those, Fire and Desert Party are the only legit contenders...

   Muddy or OFF Tracks info:

Desert Party won the six-furlong, Grade II Sanford over a muddy track last year.

Flying Private was fifth, beaten 11 1/2 in his sole off-track try.

Friesan Fire won the Grade II Louisiana Derby on the slop by 7 1/4 over Papa Clem.

Join in the Dance finished second in his debut on the slop, but in the six-furlong NATC Futurity last year on a sloppy track, he was fourth by 13.

Nowhere to Hide, in his third start, was second by a half going a mile on a muddy/sealed track at Belmont Park.

No other runners have off track experience.

Also, On Chocolate Candy:

    A few of the Reasons why I think Chocolate Candy will be third or second to Fire:

1. His race in the Santa Anita Derby was huge. Former jockey great Gary Stevens, who did the TV commentary for NBC, said he would have upset Pioneerof The Nile if the pace hadn't been so slow.

2.  There's a big chance it'll rain on Friday and Saturday, and, says assistant trainer Galen May, "He just loves the mud. I hope it does rain."

3. Hollendorfer, who is headquartered in Northern California, is always in the conversation, along with Bill Mott and Todd Pletcher, when the topic is "Best Trainer Who Has Never Won the Derby." He has never gotten to the starting gate with a horse as good as this one.

4. His pedigree indicates he'll like the Derby's mile and a quarter, which is an eighth of a mile farther than any of the contenders has won. His sire, Candy Ride, won the Pacific Classic and his dam, Crownette, is a daughter of 1977 Triple Crown winner Seattle Slew.

5. Instead of sticking with Russell Baze, who rode him in both his Golden Gate Fields victories, Hollendorfer has opted for Derby veteran Smith, who won the roses with the longshot Giacomo in 2005 and has finished second three times in his 15 Derby rides since 1984. In two Derby rides, Baze finished 13th and 14th.

  Assuming that everybody who likes chocolate candy won't bet on Chocolate Candy in the Derby, he ought to be a big price - maybe 40 to 1 or better.

 Worth a shot....

Friesan Fire, Chocolate Candy, General Quarters, Summer Bird my main four, plus a few with my wildcards, Dunkirk and I Want Revenge...

    Good Luck to Everyone, Great Knowledge and Wisdom from the majority of posters here,   Hopefully it will be a Safe and Rewarding Race for Everyone involved....

Greg J. 30 Apr 2009 1:34 PM

Also,

    Larry Jones Deserves this, and hope he gets a double taste of Victory with Friesan Fire and Just Jenda......Good Luck!!!

Greg J. 30 Apr 2009 1:37 PM

Looking over the past performances as I write this and I have one question that everyone who handicaps this race asks to himself: How much money did the owners of #18 Nowhere to Hide pay for this stiff to have him run in the Derby? Off all the things to spend money on to prove you have (pardon the expression) a big shvanz, couldn't they have found something more practical and possibly winnable?

Alex 30 Apr 2009 1:44 PM

HI JASON:

Since Jan. was mostly backing Pioneer,but also liked FF. Great writing today on your part,I'm going with FF for the win,agree w/you regarding Oaks. Zenyatta will prevail if she still runs.

Mike Relva 30 Apr 2009 1:54 PM

Okay now that I've gotten my periodic post with a yiddish word thrown in to amuse the Jewish crew in the blog, it is time for my fearless predition.

On top, I must put I Want Revenge. His gutsy performance in the Wood as well as Joe Talamo squeezing through that narrow seam to break through is enough for me. Along with him, I will be making boxes including Dunkirk, Desert Party, and Friesen Fire. It may not bring home the biggest prices but just remember that a money market fund's yield will deteriorate with inflation before the maturity date.

Hit'em hard at the windows everybody!

Alex 30 Apr 2009 1:57 PM

Jason,

Nice comments on the horses. I agree with most of your remarks, but here are my quick observations on a couple of the horses.

Do you have Mr. Hot Stuff confused with another horse? He certainly isn't "smallish." He's a big, beautiful, long bodied horse with the conformation of a stayer, similar to his full brother Colonel John.

Friesan Fire  - We know A.P. Indy imparts stamina to his offspring, so lets take a look at Friesan Fire's female family.  His damsire Dehere was mainly a sprinter, but he did win the 8.5F Fountain of Youth Stakes. While most of his offspring run in Japan or Australia, his best U.S. performer, Take Charge Lady, was a multiple Graded Stakes runner who won up to 9F against Grade 1 competition, but was second in both tries at 10F.  Friesan Fire's second damsire the Australian Marscay, second dam Bint Marscay and his dam Bollinger all  won up to 7F.

Friesan Fire easily swept the Louisiana prep races for the Derby. His Louisiana Derby win was flattered when runner-up Papa Clem came back to win the Arkansas Derby. On the plus side, Friesan Fire has recorded four consecutively faster speed figures, including two at triple digits and has one of the best trainers in the business. . On the downside, he hasn't raced since mid-March, and the last time he had a layoff that extensive, he finished fourth in the Nashua stakes going 8F, which was his only off the board finish in his career. Besides the extended layoff, he'll attempt to run an additional 1.5F  

Papa Clem is one of the "can he get the distance" question marks.  His sire Smart Strike can certainly sire long winded runners, but those runners also had stamina on their distaff side.  Papa Clem's damsire Belong To Me was a sprint specialist at 6F.  His dam Miss Houdini won the Grade 1 Del Mar Debutante at 7F, but was injured before fulfilling her potential on the track. Second dam Magical Maiden competed against the best fillies of her time, winning Graded Stakes up to 8.5F and finishing in the money behind the likes of Paseana, Versailles Treaty and Desert Stormer.  Pappa Clem's second damsire Lord Avie won the Florida Derby at 9F, but was third behind Willow Hour and Pleasant Colony in the 10F Travers.

Papa Clem was second to Pioneerof the Nile on Pro-Ride, and again finished second, this time in the mud against Friesan Fire. He surprised almost everyone when he changed his front-running tactics and beat Old Fashioned in the Arkansas Derby at 9F, earning a lifetime best speed figure. The lifetime best figure can go one of two ways. He’s either going to improve or bounce.  I believe Papa Clem beat a suspect field in the Arkansas Derby and I feel his stamina challenged pedigree will cause him to fall short of 10F against this competitive group.

Laura R 30 Apr 2009 2:00 PM

Laura: I was standing trackside when Mr. Hot Stuff galloped on Wednesday. He struck me as a beautiful dark colt, but on the smallish side, as far as his build. My impressions could have been wrong.

jshandler 30 Apr 2009 2:05 PM

Jason I love your short, consise Derby prognosis---I'm gonna try to beat Friesan Fire as I think he'll be used early from the six hole---I'm gonna try to win this race from the outside, #16 to be exact as I just think POTN is the best horse...I'll include I Want Revenge on top, I can't do that high a ticket, probably 1/2 that so I'll only have those two (#'s 13 and 16) on top.....for second/third  I'll use #5 Hold Me Back, #6 Friesan Fire, #11 Choc Candy, #12 Gen Quarters, #13 IWR, # 15 Dunkirk, #16 POTN, #19 Desert Party...I think thats $84 buckeroos...maybe backwheel those two for a buck with those underneath for another $12...that's $96 total which is about my Derby max....I think I'll cash on this, if only to get my $ back....it's looking outside for me this year...with Hold Me Back as my longshot...my pick to win is POTN....

Matthew W 30 Apr 2009 2:07 PM

Even though I'm standing by my horse, Chocolate Candy, I've been saying all week that this is more and more shaping up to be a win for Friesen Fire. Overall, I think your analysis is spot on.

Blue Blue Sea 30 Apr 2009 2:19 PM

west side bernie belongs in race.his race in delta behind big drama was nice.

steve s 30 Apr 2009 2:26 PM

I disagree, I think the weather will be a huge issue and we will see this instead: Pioneer of the Nile, Friesan Fire and Regal Ransom.  

Bee 30 Apr 2009 2:30 PM

Thoughts:  In everyones opinion do you think the exacta will pay over $42?  Reason, I am thinking of doing a $1 7 horse exacta box with FF, CC, MM, RR, IWR, POTN & Dunkirk which will cost $42.  If the two favorites hit what would somethink like that pay?  Also huge on FF so I will be playing $30 to win and place.  

Hopingtohit 30 Apr 2009 2:35 PM

JASON: Thank you for your insights, and for these enjoyable blogs. Much to mull over, but am glad to see you pick the horse I've been high on since first seeing him run early this year. For what it's worth, I think as highly of Friesan Fire as I did of Risen Star in 1988.

Sentimentally, and for the good of the sport, I'll be cheering for the only two colts whose owners opened their veterinary records to the New York Times, Fire and Papa Clem.

From a pure logical analysis point of view, I've eliminated the following horses (alphabetically) from my win consideration: Advice, Atomic Rain, Desert Party, Dunkirk, Flying Private, Join in the Dance, Mine That Bird, Mr. Hot Stuff, Musket Man, Nowhere to Hide, Regal Ransom, Summer Bird, and West Side Bernie. Several of these do have things to recommend them, but one has to take a stand somewhere. If any of them beat me, so be it. The sun will still come up the next day (let's hope that's literally true for every horse in the race). :)

That leaves Chocolate Candy, Friesan Fire, General Quarters, Hold Me Back, I Want Revenge, Papa Clem, and Pioneerof the Nile. As mentioned, I'll be cheering for FF and PC, and I can't bet seven horses, so I have a bit more narrowing down to do.

For Big Red 30 Apr 2009 2:50 PM

I am surprised that West Side Bernie is not getting more attention - His last Beyer was great and his dossage numbers are good - I am certainly going to include him in my Derby bets.

AnneM 30 Apr 2009 3:01 PM

all true breeding expert know that Friesan fire willnot win.he may finish second.you just have too see the name Dehere in breeding line too know it will not go the distance inspite of everything else in his favor.

steve s 30 Apr 2009 3:05 PM

I'll admit the #19 scares me--Desert Party...

Matthew W 30 Apr 2009 3:14 PM

I have to stay with the two horses that have had my attention since last year and that is Pioneerof theNile and I Want Revenge so I think these two may have some memorable duels coming up in this year's classics and my choice in order of finish is Pioneerof theNile passing I Want Revenge with Fresian Fire taking third and Dunkirk fourth spot. My main concern is if it rains and not being sure how Pioneerof theNile will handle it or even I Want Revenge but we do know that Fresian Fire likes it so rain may see Fresian Fire taking it all.

Julie L. 30 Apr 2009 3:19 PM

The people that are talking about Chocolate Candy hitting the board are nuts. That's my opinion, I rather take my chances with Summer Bird who is bred to like the wet and we know will get the distance, probably better off in a few weeks in the Belmont. I'll reach out there and say that West Side Bernie is a better play than Chocolate Candy. He's coming into  his third race off a layoff and he is getting better and is bred also to like the wet.

Who has Chocolate Candy beaten?  Axel Foley who has shipped to NY and is running in Allowance races and getting trounced each race he runs in.

I said it the other day if anything this horse running second to POTN doesn't Flatter POTN. Chocolate Candy will finish in the back of the back Saturday. So the people that like him go ahead waist a play on him.  

Rocker 30 Apr 2009 3:22 PM

Big Red: I've like FF ever since Larry told me it was the best 2YO he ever had. I am kicking myself for not buying a future ticket on him last year. A friend of mine was supposed to get one when in Vegas, but didnt do it. Bad mistake.

Matthew W: An old teacher of mine used to say, "if you're scared, get a dog."

jshandler 30 Apr 2009 3:27 PM

Who is the lone Grade One winner on the dirt??? I WANT REVENGE. His race in the Wood made me think of Afleet Alex almost falling. Key it with a few longshots and dont forget HOLD ME BACK, Kent D will have him running late

Jeffrey C 30 Apr 2009 3:30 PM

It continues to be difficult to separate and gauge the abilities of several of this year's Derby prospects. However, with the weather forecast for a wet track and good Karma for Larry Jones, I think Friesan Fire may be the winner. Mostly, I hope we see a race without injuries or accidents.

Karen in Texas 30 Apr 2009 3:49 PM

Regarding pace any front runnerWILL like 23 and 47 and change.

steve s 30 Apr 2009 3:59 PM

LAURA R: Although one can make a case for or against Friesan Fire on various grounds, pedigree isn't one of them.

Not only is he by A.P. Indy, but his dam, Bollinger, has numerous stamina influences in her pedigree.

Bollinger's damsire, Marscay, was a leading sire and broodmare sire in Australia. His daughters have produced many G1 winners at 1 1/2m or more, including Eremein, Packing Winner, Diamond Quest, and Pantini to name a few. His daughter, Bint Marscay (Friesan Fire's granddam), is also the granddam of Victoria Derby (over 1 1/2 miles) winner Benecio.

Dehere's sire, Deputy Minister, sired numerous routing stakes winners, including Breeder's Cup Classic winner Awesome Again, Travers winner Deputy Commander, the great (and tragic) Go For Wand, Kentucky Oaks winner Keeper Hill, Santa Anita Handicap winner Mr. Purple, Kentucky Oaks and Coaching Club American Oaks winner Open Mind, and Belmont winner Touch Gold.

Friesan Fire is inbred 3s x 4d to Secretariat and, therefore, linebred to highly influential stamina influence, Princequillo through his daughter, Somethingroyal, a Broodmare of the Year. Other stamina influences in FF's pedigree include: Hail to Reason, Round Table, Tom Fool, Sir Gaylord (1/2 brother to Secretariat), Northern Dancer, Damascus, Star Kingdom, and Sir Ivor.

Further back in Bollinger's pedigree we find stamina influences Bull Lea, Hyperion, and Alycidon.

None of this is a guarantee he will win the Derby, but he should relish the distance.

For Big Red 30 Apr 2009 4:00 PM

Prediction: #6 Friesan Fire (5-1) and #19 Desert Party (15-1) will be LOWER than those odds......#15 Dunkirk (4-1) and #16 Pioneerof The Nile (4-1) will be HIGHER than those odds....

Matthew W 30 Apr 2009 4:00 PM

For Big Red,

     Like your comments up above, but I think summer bird will have a late kick at end to finish top four, I will be honest, I want Revenge and Dunkirk could spoil everything, as far as myself, but in the end, Nobody ever really knows, also Kudos for Friesan Fire and Papa Clem Connections for opening their medical records, That should be a requirement for every horse, if not, then they shouldn't be able to race! Good Luck Red...

Greg J. 30 Apr 2009 4:02 PM

I chuckle when I read folks dispparaging POTN and CC for low numbers on synthetics..IWR's highest Beyer on synthetics was a 92 for a third behind POTN and PC....

His Beyer before that was an 86 behind POTN and just ahead of CC...

It'll be a great KD!

da3hoss 30 Apr 2009 4:13 PM

since track record at daubi is 1:46:60 It would reason 1:50 is slow time so desert party has no chance to hit the board.

steve s 30 Apr 2009 4:18 PM

Food for thought:

Byron King of DRF was told the following while casually talking to Larry Jones:

"He has never had a horse with the wind capacity of Friesan Fire"

Best Regards,

Dave Johnson

Dave Johnson 30 Apr 2009 4:30 PM

Great insight steve s, I'm leaving them off of my ticket.

Travis L 30 Apr 2009 4:36 PM

if the forecast is rain on Derby Day,then there'll be more things to gum up the works--i saw Empire Maker win the Belmont in the slop, so POTN isn't automatically knocked out of the money; or is he? Just something else to consider. Good luck & don't live or die on those beyers

bumpy 30 Apr 2009 4:51 PM

Great analysis-I love Friesan Fire. It's Larry Jone's turn

katy746 30 Apr 2009 5:02 PM

Good luck to you also, Greg J. :)

For Big Red 30 Apr 2009 5:06 PM

DAVE JOHNSON: Don't know if you are THE Dave Johnson. If so, I met you years ago when Marge Everett was still the CEO and Hollywood Park hosted handicapping seminars in the Casino. You were always personable and kind, I respect you a lot.

Anyway, whether or not you are THE Dave Johnson, thanks for that tidbit of info about Friesan Fire. He has "the look," about him.

For Big Red 30 Apr 2009 5:11 PM

JASON:  Impressive analysis and conclusion.  I enjoyed it very much.  Best of luck.

FOR BIG RED:  I am hoping that FF redeems AP Indy's very poor Derby record and moderate Triple Crown performance as a sire.  AP certainly passes on stamina and class to most of his progenies but not precocity in time for the Kentucky Derby.  Friesan Fire's exotic damline (australian) could be the reason for his readiness this year.

Ranagulzion 30 Apr 2009 5:19 PM

Dave, I can only hope Larry is right about Friesan Fire, he is my pick to win. Now if I can only get the other two or three horses behind him I will be very happy. I believe this man is honest and no doubt knows what he has and what he is doing. He proved that with Eight Belles and Hard Spun. He also said last year that Freisan Fire was the best horse he has ever trained. That being said, should lead us to the winners circle on Saturday.

DONNA 30 Apr 2009 5:44 PM

O.k. so if it's sloppy FF has another advantage. I think that's certainly possible but let's see how POTN and IWR like the slop too. I still think this race is wide open for about 4 or 5 horses. But I think putting FF at the top is a good choice.

Paula Higgins 30 Apr 2009 5:50 PM

From all indications it should be a wet track. Friesan Fire then warants a closer look, also desrt party, Think those two will love the off track.

Unfortunately, what started out looking like the most competitive derby ever has turned into a race with five serious contenders and a host of long shots.

I see Five horses with a serious shot at winning.

Pioneer of the Nile

Friesan Fire

I Want Revenge

Dunkirk

Desert party

I give an outside chance to

Chocolate Candy

Hold Me Back

CB Man 30 Apr 2009 5:58 PM

Ranagulzion: The list of superior sires who never got a Kentucky Derby winner is longer than the list of winners. Similarly, there are plenty of stallions who were not in the top tier of sires of their eras, but who did sire a Derby winner.

Breeding fashion of the day, as well as luck and a whole lot of other variables go into the making of a Derby winner. Just sayin...

For Big Red 30 Apr 2009 6:05 PM

Finally! The Derby is upon us.The track will be off,so I'll keep that in mind.

Off the bat,I'm tossing-out: WSB(not good enough),Advice(no thanks),MTB(seriously?),JITD(should set solid splits for 6f),RR(facing much better here),Atomic Rain(Ky Derby fever,no shot),Summer Bird(pass,in too tough),Nowhere to Hide(owners just couldn't resist,foolish,the horse is tired),FP(Lukas should know better,his form is off).

In with a fighters chance: MM(tough,but not against these),Mr.HS(should make late impact,too late though),HMB(too much,too soon.plus he'll be too far back early),PC(improving,but not enough to win),CC(plodder,needs a perfect set-up),GQ(my upset special,love the way he's been galloping,looks good & should get a nice trip),Dunkirk(very talented,no work over the surface though.only 2 horses in the last 20+ years have pulled that off),DP(looks primed,but the 19hole means either he'll be swung wide on the 1st-turn,or he'll drop-back too far off the pace,too much to overcome?).

My top 3,since mid-Jan: IWR-my top pick. (he's a Beast on the dirt! pace/trip will not be a factor for him & has had the best looking week @ Churchill,IMO.Looks to be sitting on his best race yet.Scary!! POTN (very good horse who does what he has to in order to win.don't underestimate his #'s,dirt/mud should not be a problem.also has been looking very good @ Churchill). FF (has definitely turned it around since last year,is still improving and should be in the cat-bird seat throughout.Beat him to cash.

Bets: It's hard for me to separate these 3,so I'll stick to my earlier conclusion and Box-them on top of my exotics,with #'s-2,3,5,7,11,12,15,19 on the bottoms...I feel very confident about this ticket!Class should prevail.Good luck folks!

Slew.em.All 30 Apr 2009 6:08 PM

You heard it here first: General Quarters will win the 2009 Kentucky Derby....

Value Plus #1 Fan 30 Apr 2009 6:15 PM

Steve S,

I have to differ with you on Friesan Fire.  There are no absolutes in horse racing and certainly not in breeding.  Dehere in his pedigree doesn't mean he can't get the distance.  No one can predict that.  Have you any idea how many horses outrun their pedigrees?  FF has plenty of endurance in his pedigree beginning with his sire and grandsire.  There are horses that are full brothers, one is exceptional and the other a washout.

Nope, you can't predict anything because one horse in his pedigree is not a distance horse.

Monica V 30 Apr 2009 6:41 PM

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents...FF has been my pick since Jan. when pool#1 came out. He justified it by TORCHING The Fairgrounds and by some REALLY Solid works leading up to THE GREATEST 2 MINUTES IN SPORTS!!!!! Derby Day has been a passion of mine since 1979 when I was 8yrs. old, and Spectacular Bid was going to be the NEXT GREAT ONE. Plus it also helps that being from Baltimore...Triple Crown is held in high regard just like Lexington and NY. Good LUCK to Everyone...especially Jason and RED, love the Inside info. and the daily crushing of Dray. Got to go and place my order in for FF hat!!!

The Bid 30 Apr 2009 6:44 PM

Awwww, no Mr. Hot Stuff or Papa Clem...I think you should bet anything hire than 50-1 to at least show by default. Would you suggest that Jason, for some possible extra loose change?

aspradling 30 Apr 2009 6:48 PM

Hey nay nay,

Just wondering if you have changed your mind on this too. It's hard to keep track of all your flip flops. Here is what you said before the Fla. Derby about Pletcher and throwing in a rabbit to set things up for Dunkirk. Since he's throwing in a rabbit for the Derby but you have changed your mind for the 15th or 16th time who you like and it's now Dunkirk I suppose it's ok by you to do it now.

nay nay said,

"you seem to think throwing in a horse for the sole purpose of messing up anothers race is ok even when he has NO intention on winning the race.  I call THAT trying to steal a race. Now I know why Pletcher has never had a colt win a triple crown race. Trying to alter the race by throwing in a rabbit may be ok by you but I think its pathetic. Doing anything to get your horse into the Derby explains why he has never had a Derby winner and probably never will with that attitude. These tactics and attitudes will fail again. There is a right way to do things and a wrong way and this is clearly the wrong way."

I think Dunkirk is going down. He's going to get pushed around and spit the bit just like Big Brown did the first time he faced adversity and didn't have things all his way. Take a look at the replay of the Wood and watch IWR. Now that is how a classy horse handles the unexpected. Watch the SA Derby and see how PON handled an unexpected pace and how he turned it on then throttled down then turned it on again when needed, that's another good example of how a good horse handles adversity. Those two are coming into this race battle tested. Both Friesan Fire and Desert Party are going to be a handful for Dunkirk as well. I see another Pletcher sob fest when this is over.

gw_bushwacker 30 Apr 2009 7:03 PM

first the greatest horse of all time was Quality Road, and now it seem's to be Friesan Fire. Hard spun he's not. atleast Hard Spun had run a mile and an eighth. I Want Revenge towers over this field. in 15 years of going to the track though, i have never cashed a ticket so my thoughts mean very little. keep pounding Friesan Fire.

laz 30 Apr 2009 7:04 PM

After further consideration the highest percentage of my bankroll will be on Friesan Fire. He's one of a handful that I have futures exactas on and some of those are doozy's. I play one or two horses every year in the superfecta pool and besides him it will either be IWR or PON. The rest of my bets will be determined by where the odds are upon gracing the track with my presence on Saturday. I'll be playing tri's and exactas off of those odds and my picks for the underneaths. Good luck to everybody and god willing I'll see you at the IRS window once again after the race.

the_wiz 30 Apr 2009 7:14 PM

Jason,

Absolutely spot on analysis. I agree with Fresian Fire. Especially with the track coming up wet. I've POTN to replace Desert Party on top, but basically have the same ticket as you do. Would you even consider an Oaks/Derby Double play? I've seen all the prep races and am so afraid to look at the form that it might sway my selections. It just looks pretty clear cut to me as far as who the contenders are. The only exception would've been IWR based on excuses, except he won his race so. Good Luck to everyone. I'm playing a Oaks/Derby double with RA/IWR,POTN/FF. Hope I get some value with FF, but the more rain that comes, the more I see my value going down.

The Rock 30 Apr 2009 7:32 PM

da3hoss...SHHHH.  They don't get it.  The "west" moves up 10-15 points on Beyers once they hit dirt.  Just keep talking about how slow POTN and CC are and how fast Dunkirk is.  

Householder 30 Apr 2009 8:21 PM

Seems like a spot on analysis to me. I fully agree with Friesan Fire and Pioneer OTN.  Also I have to include General Quarters, not only for sentiment but the horse has done nothing wrong and he seems to love CD. It seems the BLue Grass no longer gets any respect. For IWR, I question Talamo's experience, but he certainly should be somewhere in the mix. My quandary is with the bottom of the exotics. I have to agree with Rocker above, Choc. Candy has Smith aboard, which is a plus, but horses seldom win the Derby that have raced in Northern California. It is a lower level circuit. So he was close to POTN in SA Derby. POTN does not win his races by much. Papa Clem has come close to POTN and improving with every start. Also don't underestimate West Side Bernie. His Wood M. and his second to the speedy Big Drama in Delta Jackpot show that he may get at least a piece of it.

That's my take - good luck to all.

Old Timer 30 Apr 2009 8:23 PM

If the track is going to be like it has been the bet is FF and all and all for the tri and hope 2 bombs hit.

capper 30 Apr 2009 8:46 PM

Thanks Rock. I dont see Rachel losing unless Calvin falls off. Pound the Oaks/Derby double with the horse you like in the Derby. And single Rachel in the late Pick 4. If we have time, lets go over that late Pick 4 on Friday morning.

jshandler 30 Apr 2009 8:50 PM

How about the Humana Distaff on the same card? I'm going with Informed Decision on top with Bear Now and Game Face in a EX Box.

Wanda 30 Apr 2009 9:31 PM

FOR BIG RED:  Don't leave out that Dehere has been a champion sire in Australia and New Zealand.

There are no holes in FF's breeding.  To suggest otherwise is crazy.

I have FF and IWR on top in my exotic plays, and am trying to decide between Papa Clem and Dunkirk for some others.

jamesb 30 Apr 2009 9:40 PM

This article should be read by da3hoss & Householder and everybody else that loves POTN and Chocolate Candy and all the other phony synthetic horses from Cali.. Please go ahead and bet down all the phonies from Cali on derby day.  But read the article by Andrew Beyer " Based on dirt form, the choice is obvious"

www.drf.com/.../103379.html

However, the fact that I Want Revenge made this successful transition has absolutely no relevance to the chances of the other synthetic-track specialists in the Derby field. Perhaps one of them will improve on dirt, too, but the probabilities are against them. Last year, four horses came into the Derby with solid credentials on synthetics and no proven dirt form; they finished sixth, ninth, 16th, and 19th. I will bet against all of the synthetic specialists in Saturday's race - Chocolate Candy, Advice, Hold Me Back, Mr. Hot Stuff, and particularly Pioneerof the Nile.

As a 2-year-old, Pioneerof the Nile was trained by the astute Bill Mott, who launched the colt's career by running him on the grass at Saratoga and never tried him on dirt. It is plausible to assume that Mott didn't think he was a good dirt runner. Under the care of Bob Baffert this year, Pioneerof the Nile has blossomed at Santa Anita, which favors horses with his stretch-running style, but he may be strictly a synthetic-track horse.

I love this article, so true.... For the record i'm reluctantly using POTN for third just because I respect Baffert and what he has done but as far as any of the horses from Cali winning the race not a shot!!!!

Rocker 30 Apr 2009 10:24 PM

I am pulling for General Quarters, but tend to believe that I Want Revenge will prevail.  General Quarters has an old fashioned tale to tell! Quality Road was my pick until he was injured because I like Elusive Quality and Smarty Jones.

DK Thomas 30 Apr 2009 10:39 PM

Quote from Andy Beyer, " But this much about the Derby seems clear (at least to me): I Want Revenge will win it, and none of the synthetic- track specialists will finish close to him.

That's a great statement!

Rocker 30 Apr 2009 10:52 PM

I'll try and beat the heavy favorite RA in the Oaks.

Looks like she'll be facing better horses this time and with the speedy/classy Justwhistledixie,along with Baffert's and one of Lukas' charge contesting the pace,these 3 'might' put enough pressure on her to soften her up and allow the improving,late-charging,mud loving Flying Spur to swallow them up.She'll enjoy the 1 1/8th distance for sure.

And...if not,then I think I'll be cool with my Oaks/Derby Double ticket of: RA,FS w/IWR,POTN,FF,GQ...good luck folks.

Slew.em.All 30 Apr 2009 11:26 PM

The best athlete will win the race this year and its obvious the best athlete is Dunkirk.  Chalk up another Derby win for Prado. If you place any other horse on top your ticket is a loser.  There are going to be a lot of very surprised people when they see what Dunkirk does to this average group.

draynay 30 Apr 2009 11:43 PM

Here's my superfecta box for Derby 135: 19-Desert Party: Only horse who has won carrying 126 lbs. in a big field; 16-Pioneerof the Nile: Respect connections; 6-Friesan Fire: Saez & Jones would love to erase '08 heartbreak. 3-Mr. Hot Stuff: should be flying at the end.

Chic1978 01 May 2009 1:06 AM

I told you. Regal Ransom with Alan Garcia will pull off a shocker in the Kentucky Derby at 30-1. I told you to box Regal Ransom, Desert Party, and Friesan Fire. I told you nature was going to play a large role in this year's Derby, just when everybody thought that they had figured it out. Come on rain. I told you so.

bulldog 01 May 2009 1:33 AM

Looking at the odds, I think these horses are overlays:

General Quarters, Musket Man= 20-1

Why are they higher than Hold Me Back and Desert Party? I think GQ and MM are better than the latter, although MM doesn't seem to be working well.

30-1 Regal Ransom, West Side Bernie. I think both fit w/ the 20-1 horses, and are alot better than the other two 30-1 horses, Mr Hot Stuff and Advice.

50-1 Summer Bird. Should be at 30-1.  His Arkansas Derby was just as good, if not better, than Mr Hot Stuff's SA Derby 3rd and Advice's win in the Lexington. No way SB belongs with the likes of Join in the Dance, Atomic Rain, Nowhere To Hide,and Mine That Bird.

The same could also be said of Flying Private. Watch the Ark Derby and focus on this horse. He was trying to do something around the turn, but ran flat into a rapidly retreating Ziegfeld. He never gave up despite the trouble, and I think he will show alot more speed in the Derby, which he will need to do breaking from #20. In the Lanes End, he was up stalking and put in a good move around the turn to finish 2nd. He also has proven himself on dirt, although not in stakes.

GunBow 01 May 2009 1:44 AM

Watching a Derby history show on ESPN Classic, I was struck by the information given by Arthur Hancock, the owner of Derby winners Gato Del Sol and Sunday Silence, concerning outside post positions in the Derby. He said that the prior to the 82' Derby, with Gato del Sol breaking from post 18, he calculated (using geometry) that horses breaking from that far outside only had to run 2.4 feet further. Hancock had prviously believed a post that far outside to be a death knell, and would cost a horse about 10 lengths. Relieved after the calculation showing 2.4 feet, Hancock contacted Eddie Gregson (trainer) and Eddie (jockey) to tell them the news and give both more confidence.

There is always the chance a horse breaking from the outside could be carried wide on the first turn, but that doesn't always happen, and given the distance to the 1st turn, there is plenty of time for jockeys to move down closer to the rail. One of the reasons so few horses have won the Derby from the outside posts is that many Derbys had fields smaller than 15.

GunBow 01 May 2009 1:54 AM

FF

CC

Potn

Papa

See you all when the bank opens on Monday morning!  Hope they all come home safely.

Friesan_Light_My_Fire 01 May 2009 2:18 AM

Alot of us have been asking why there is so little speed in this year's Derby. Andy Beyer, yes he of the Beyer speed figure, offers the best explanation. Many of the Derby preps, as we all know, are now run on synthetic surfaces. On all of the synthetics, although some more than other, speed fares worse than it does on dirt. Since most jockeys and trainers know this, those with frontrunners try to slow the pace down as much as possible, hoping the slow pace will cancel out the anti-frontrunner bias.

One result is that the pace of almost every synthetic prep run over these past 3 or 4 years has been moderate or slow. The second consequence of the synthetics is that even with slow paces, most of the preps have been won by either stalkers or closers. The majority of frontrunners in these synthetic preps  either ran too poorly to continue down the Derby trail, or did not earn the requisite money to get in the field.

This is all in contrast to the previous runnings of the Santa Anita Derby/San Felipe/Sham/El Camino Real etc, and Blue Grass/Lexington/Lane's End. California used to be known for its speed. After moving to the Midwest, I made some decent money betting Cali shippers in sprint races; there really was nothing like California speed back then. Now, with all of the major tracks in Cali having synthetic surfaces, the speedy types that used to dominate are now really struggling. Did you all see the way Well Armed absolutely folded in the San Antonio after setting a rather moderate and uncontested pace?

If anything, Keeneland during its Spring meet used to be even more speed friendly than Santa Anita. Horses on the lead and on the rail moved around Keeneland as if they were on a conveyor belt. Horses like Sinister Minister, Millenium Wind, Songandaprayer, High Yield, Wild Syn, Quintons Gold Rush, Scrimshaw, Keats, and Star Standard went out and set fast paces in the Blue Grass or Lexington and then never stopped, earning huge Beyers in the process. As a result of running well, the trainers of such horses  pointed them towards the Derby even though they would not be getting easy leads again, and would have to run 10 furlongs.  All of these horses fared poorly in the Derby, but they contributed to some of the fastest quarter, half, and 6 furlong splits in Derby history.

GunBow 01 May 2009 2:26 AM

Which Derby winner had the highest career Beyer....Big Brown or Giacomo?

Tie. Both ran a top of 109, Big Brown in the 2008 Derby, and Giacomo in his final start, a 4th in the 2006 Breeders Cup Classic behind Invasor, Bernardini, and Premium Tap.

GunBow 01 May 2009 3:24 AM

Here are all but 2 of the Kentucky Derby winners' Beyers 1984-2008(figure for Kentucky Derby)

Swale- 117

Alysheba- 111

Winning Colors- 111

Sunday Silence- 105

Unbridled- 116

Strike the Gold- 107

Lil E. Tee- 107

Sea Hero- 105

Go For Gin- 112

Thunder Gulch- 108

Grindstone- 112

Silver Charm- 115

Real Quiet- 107

Charismatic- 108

Fusaichi Pegasus- 108

Monarchos- 116

War Emblem- 114

Funny Cide- 109

Smarty Jones-107

Giacomo- 100

Barbaro- 111

Street Sense- 110

Big Brown- 109

GunBow 01 May 2009 3:32 AM

Looking at the last prep of each Derby winner from 1975 to 2008 (34 runnings):

17 won their final prep

10 ran 2nd

4 ran 3rd

3 ran 4th

Extending it to include the Derby winners' last 2 preps (75'-08'):

13 won both of their final 2 preps

6  won one of the preps and ran 2nd in the other

3  ran 2nd in both preps

22 ran 2nd or better in BOTH of the final 2 preps

11  ran 3rd or worse in one prep but 1st or 2nd in the other prep

1   only 1 horse ran 3rd or worse in BOTH of the last 2 preps. That horse is Sea Hero, who ran 3rd in a turf allowance and then 4th in the Blue Grass.

25(of 34)  won at least one of the final 2 preps.

9 did not win either prep.

Derby winners typically run well in BOTH of their final 2 preps. The majority of the last 34 Derby winners ran 2nd or better in both of their final 2 preps. Those that did run 3rd or worse in one of the preps ran well in the other.

Giacomo ran 4th in the 05' SA Derby, but had run 2nd in the San Felipe. Thunder Gulch ran 4th in the 95' Blue Grass, but had won the Florida Derby. Unbridled ran 3rd in the 90' Blue Grass, but he too had won a Florida Derby. Alysheba ran 3rd in the 87' Blue Grass(by dq), but had run 2nd in the San Felipe. Fedinand ran 3rd in the 86' SA Derby, but had run 2nd in the San Rafael. Genuine Risk ran 3rd in the 80' Wood, but had won an allowance race before.

Charismatic ran 4th in the 99' SA Derby, but would then win the Lexington and the Kentucky Derby.  Go For Gin ran 4th behind Holy Bull in the 94' Florida Derby, but then ran 2nd in the Wood(Behind a horse, Irgun, who was injured before the Derby). Gato del Sol ran 4th in the 82' Santa Anita Derby, but then ran 2nd in the Blue Grass. Foolish Pleasure ran 3rd in the Florida Derby as a heavy favorite, but then won the Wood before his Derby triumph. Pleasant Colony is the only horse to run worse than 4th in either of the final 2 preps. Pleasant Colony ran 5th in the 81' Florida Derby, but then won the Wood on his way to a Derby-Preakness sweep.

GunBow 01 May 2009 4:37 AM

I saw Friesan Fire's first race at 6F and was very impressed. Winning first-time out for AP Indys is not usually the case. He has the smarts to rate, and if Saez can keep him off a really hot pace and rides him like he handled Eight Belles in '08, he'll be in a perfect position for turning on the after burners for the stretch. He used to running on dirt (and a muddy track) and on that long, long Fair Grounds' stretch...similar to Churchill Downs' stretch. Fire is fit; it's just a question of if he's good enough. Saez needs to be patient. I agree with Jason that we haven't seen the best of Friesan Fire. The best is yet to come.

Larry Jones lets the phrase Triple Crown slip into conversations about Fire, and he hadn't done that with Hard Spun or Eight Belles who both ran excellent Derbies. What a tribute to Seattle Slew and Secretariat (who is in both sides of his pedigree) if he did win the Triple Crown.

Go get 'em Cowboy!

Sandy 01 May 2009 4:46 AM

I'm going to stick w/ IWR. I wouldn't be shocked if he won impressively, but conversely I always have felt there is a chance he might completely bomb. However, he's fast, strong, in form, training well, and has proven he can overcome adversity.

Friesan Fire looks to be sitting on a big race. I think, and believe it to be a good idea, that Friesan Fire will be just a little off the pace, closer maybe than some are expecting. I expect him to be on the lead entering the stretch. His tactical speed is a big weapon in what should be a slow pace.  Larry Jones knows what he's doing.

Dunkirk has alot of history to overcome. On top of it, he's not the most robust horse, and his late run depends on pace and racing luck. Still, the talent and breeding are there. Unlike the Florida Derby when he made a premature move so that Quality Road wouldn't sneak away on a track playing to speed all day, when Dunkirk makes his move in the Derby there will be no wilting or fading. I expect him to be running best of all late; although it will probably take him some time to get rolling, once he does that huge stride is really going to eat up the ground. However, he just might not have the tactical speed and acceleration to make that run in time.  

I have full respect for Pioneer of the Nile, and would vote him the Eclipse award for the first third of the year. Yet, he simply has too many questions to answer for such a short price. Even if he can travel over the dirt well, how will he take the dirt hitting him? Maybe that is one reason why Baffert took the 16 post.

Of the mid-priced horses, I like General Quarters most. I like his tactical speed and his ability to accelerate, he is proven on dirt + synthetic, and he has a good race over the track. I would've had Musket Man right with him, but what I'm hearing about his works concerns me.  I was able to see Hold Me Back win the Lane's End in person, and think he his a wondeful looking horse with a lot of promise. However, dirt is a question, and the 15-1 ML odds are not as appealing as others. I think Mike Battaglia put him that low because he and other Kentuckians are very familiar with him, having prepped in Kentucky for both his 09' races. Papa Clem, Desert Party, and Chocolate Candy are all really nice colts, but Desert Party is breaking from 19th post and has faced unkown competition, Chocolate Candy has never run on dirt, and Papa Clem has distance questions and hasnt worked that well from what I've read.

For the true longshots, I like West Side Bernie and Regal Ransom at 30-1. RR is going to have much to say about how the race unfolds, and Bernie is a proven graded stakes winner with solid dirt form.

I might have thrown Summer Bird into the mix at 50-1, but his works have not drawn positive remarks. If I do put a bomb horse in, it will be Flying Private. I really liked his 2nd in the Lane's End, and he has an excellent classic pedigree, being a $700,000 yearling purchase. He has alot more tactical speed than he displayed in the Ark Derby, so I expect him forwardly placed. Then hopefully, that pedigree kicks in.

Mr. Hot Stuff has a very outside shot, whereas I think Advice, Join in the Dance, Atomic Rain, Mine that Bird, and Nowhere to Hide have no shot.

GunBow 01 May 2009 5:20 AM

Lol, Jason, sorry for being nitpicky but Mr. Hot Stuff is far from "smallish". I was there for the Santa Anita Derby and not only was he striking but he was also pretty big, one of the tallest in the field. He's a well built stout colt who has good things coming for him, but right now I'm only sticking to him out of pure sentiment - I love his sire too damn much.

Right now the horses I like the most are Friesan Fire and I Want Revenge. Jones has done great with horses coming off of a layoff and FF has really blossomed this year. A muddy track? More power to the bay. IWR has improved by leaps and bounds, and has both the style and the heart. Not much more you can ask of him. Just hope he doesn't get banged up or throw in a bizarre performance on Saturday. I'm holding out hope that Pioneerof the Nile will improve as well as IWR, but not all horses are as successful transitioning from synthetic to dirt the first time around, or the second time, or the third, fourth, fifth...same with Chocolate Candy and, naturally, MHS.

What can I say? Gotta stick up for the SoCal horses!

Justine 01 May 2009 5:54 AM

Jason,

    Question, How is RA in the Slop?, And, Off subject, Did you see Mission Impazible(Good write up on JUVENILE, by the way), Bad start, then great speed to catch up, then all over the place down stretch, and still got third!, He will be one heck of a three year old.... Congrats to Wesley Ward with Aegean and Jealous Again taking one, two....

Greg J. 01 May 2009 9:01 AM

Steve S,

    The world cup and some other races that were run on dirt that day were slow. The winner of the World Cup that won by 14 lengths went in 2.01, when the record is somewhere in the 1.59 range. Plus, Desert Party wasn't even fully cranked. Also, if you just look at raw times, take a look at how DP has been working over the CD strip. His five furlong works beat almost everyone elses in the field, except for FF and his speedy stablemate. Based on works DP has more than just a shot to win.

LDP 01 May 2009 9:20 AM

nay nay,

What happened to "if it's a wet track my pick is Desert Party"?

Just another flip flop I guess.

gw_bushwacker 01 May 2009 9:22 AM

Friesan Fire, Pioneer Of The Nile, I Want Revenge, and Desert Party have been in my top 5 since back in March. I would have been all over Quality Road if he could have made it here. I replaced him with Dunkirk. I'm just hoping a longshot like Hold Me Back, West Side Bernie, Flying Private, Regal Ransom, or Cocolate Candy finishes underneath for some value.

slyder 01 May 2009 9:27 AM

going with pioneer of the nile chocolate candy i only hope these trainers didnt shoot themselves in the foot with ther post position picks they could both haven been in the 5 to 10 where most derbys are won.

beast1997 01 May 2009 10:31 AM

Great Derby preview.  

Utley 01 May 2009 10:32 AM

What  ashame that the weather will not be sunny but that's mother nature. Bodes well for FF and papa.Mystery horse Desert will he like the slop?Great afternoon of racing coming up both days too bad Zen has opted out for today -weather will cause scratches.

2 time player of the year 01 May 2009 11:58 AM

Justine,

You go girl!  I love your sticking up for the West Coast horses!  Seems like many think them less than average.  We've always had good horses on the West Coast.

Monica V 01 May 2009 12:58 PM

Justine,

Did you see the post that the California horses are phony???  That's what IWR is, a California horse!

Monica V 01 May 2009 1:13 PM

its easy too figure out who could have a lone lead:  Join in the dance: easy

steve s 01 May 2009 1:47 PM

What's up with Hollywood Park?  First, they cancel a card due to lack of entries and then I hear that the race that Zenyatta was originally pointed for was cancelled this year.  How bad is it???

Bill 01 May 2009 2:08 PM

FYI,

   Here’s a news flash. Friesan Fire is the early betting favorite for the Kentucky Derby at 4-1, with morning line favorite I Want Revenge second choice at 5-1, Pioneerof the Nile and (get this) General Quarters co-third choices at 8-1, and Dunkirk and Chocolate Candy next at 9-1 each. The Louisville bettors are obviously smitten by the Tom McCarthy saga, the story of the former hometown school teacher and principal with a horse stable and a Derby dream. I’m guessing the early play on Friesan Fire is based on his superior off-track form in the Louisiana Derby.

Greg J. 01 May 2009 2:36 PM

SPOT ON!!!

My superfecta box; Chocolate Candy - Friesan Fire - I want Revenge - Summer Bird.

I am limited to $30 so will risk $6 win on Summer Bird.

Pretty ambitious i guess but what the heck, KD always produce surprises.

Seriously, my first pick is CC.

He was gaining on POTN. Pedigreewise, He is an X-FACTOR and an RF horse so class and stamina is not a question.

EddieSr 01 May 2009 3:10 PM

one caroline just lost {slam dunk winner on paper}mother nature has ruined the derby.Only sure thing FRIESAN FIRE TOO PLACE.                                            

steve s 01 May 2009 3:26 PM

Slew.em.All:  You are either a very brave soul or a wild and crazy guy to be opposing Rachel Alexandra in the Oaks.  You would have a better chance taking Todd Pletcher's "Advice" in the Derby than going against RA.  

The method in the madness of suggesting a reasonable longshot in Advice is that he was just outrun by Jose Adan (remember him?) in the Arlington Washington futurity and showed in the Lexington that his stamina and stretch running prowess is no fluke.  Also form a pedigree standpoint, he has Derby-winner-producing sire Buckaroo(Spend A Buck's sire) within the 1st three generations, nicely hid behind an ostensibly sprinter's pedigree.  

I'm not a wild and crazy guy by any means but I think that my "advice" has a better outsideer's chance than your Oaks dream.

Ranagulzion 01 May 2009 3:39 PM

FYI,

   Scratch Justwhistledixie from the Kentucky Oaks…apparently a stone bruise that isn’t serious but enough to take her out of the race.

Greg J. 01 May 2009 3:53 PM

dont knock nick zito.his horse only lost by four Lengths to FF and MM,besides he getting ready for belmont where a slow horse can win.

steve s 01 May 2009 3:54 PM

TO:SLEW.em.ALL

Not picking RA,you've got to be kidding!

Mike Relva 01 May 2009 5:09 PM

TO:JASON

Hi Jason,good luck tomorrow! I think Zenyatta's connections were correct in pulling her out of the race today.

Mike Relva 01 May 2009 5:10 PM

With my faves The PM and QR out, I gotta back GQ. For all his quirky movement, this horse just grinds out one solid honest performance after another.

For a longshot, I'll take Advice.

ttimsan 01 May 2009 5:39 PM

Bushwanker.... what happend to making a pick at all ???  Desert Party will be on my ticket if it comes up wet but I am all in with Dunkirk and Rachel just held up the first half of my Double so all I need now is Dunkirk and I am a happy man !!!  Still no derby pick?  lol...figures...

draynay 01 May 2009 6:13 PM

Rachel WoW! 20 lengths. Borel said that she would beat the boys tommarow. But the owner said emphatically that colts should run with colts and fillies against fillies, that the derby is just a showcase for future stallions. I don't know about that one, this is the  greatest race in the world, to make history.              Anyway I've changed my pick in the Derby to Chocolate Candy. This horse is going to love the distance. Worked great on the dirt. This horse will pass Pioneer, and will win a close one.

Clay 01 May 2009 6:14 PM

Well,I tried to beat the heavy favorite RA with a lil juicier shot(knowing she was a Monster),but as it turns out,she's a Beast!! no surprises there.Hey,I tried and failed...  :(

Been saying my upset special GQ has been looking good all week,now I noticed Haskins is all over him. Is that good or bad?..lol...he's a very live longshot play.Should sit a nice trip.  My short ticket will be: exotics box--IWR,POTN,FF,GQ....good luck all!

Slew.em.All 01 May 2009 6:54 PM

FF or Gen.Q for the win.

Mike Relva 01 May 2009 7:22 PM

I love all the phoney horses from California. Got kind of tired of listening to people talk about how IRW was going to "fall down" in New York.  Then we (the west) had to listen to "It was a fluke" "Bounce" and some story about the inner track vs. the outer track and coming out parties for Imperial something or other.  What Papa Clem is posting 100 Beyers!  He ran mid 80's on the synthetics.  Is he THAT better or dirt?  Continue to believe the Beyers are correct.  I'm taking multiple graded stakes winners over Beyers and probably won't go past the Cash Call as all involved have improved.  POTN, CC, IWR, and Papa Clem or MM.  

Householder 01 May 2009 7:29 PM

I don't even know what to say about RA. She looked amazing. Calvin never even really asked her for anything. I know this will be said forever...but I wish they would have run her with the boys..she just has no competition with the girls. Lets just hope she meets up with Zenyetta later this year. As much as a fan of Zenyetta I am I would have to say she would have her work cut out for her taking on RA. She is just a beast. I was hoping to get past this weekend without a single breakdown and of course we have already had one. My deepest condolences.

Karen2 01 May 2009 7:53 PM

Writing from a (cheap) hotel in the Louisville area. As any can see from my posts at 4am last night, I had trouble getting to sleep even though I was planning on driving to Louisville from the Detroit area that morning. Well, after an hour  of shut-eye, I hit the road this morning for the 5 and 1/2 hour drive, planning everying  so I could make it to Churchill for the Louisville Br Cup, and Zenyatta, at 3. I get there at 230, only to find the Louisville was just run. I was livid with myself for getting the time wrong and missing my chance to see a legend; suffice to say I've never been happier to find out about a scratch. However, from what I just read, the Louisville was a well run race, with a final time about 8 lengths faster than the pitiful older males ran the Alysheba. It sounds like One Caroline ran well, but having looked over the Form I've noticed the winner, miss Isla(? I'm on an old computer and cant look up multiple pages), is a Churchill horse for course.

I've been to the Derby and Oaks 4 of the last 5 years. Even with an infield general admin ticket, I've found the Oaks and Derby to be surprisingly good spectator races. Infield gen admin allows one access to the paddock. Moving from infield to paddock, and back again, is tough work, as you have to wade through the crowd. However, although there is probably about 3,000 in the paddock area, most people just stand around talking and drinking. If you're a real fan, you can get right near the paddock fence separating the horses + crowd. Now I'm very tall so I can see all the horses being saddled and walked around very easily, but even for those shorter, you'de be surprised at how few people are really paying attention to the horses. Then after the call to the track, if you you hurry back under to the infield, there is about a 15 yard long spot, directly across from the twin spires, that allows for a view of the first and last eighths of 2 turn races.  Additionally, one is right across from the winners circle used for most of the stakes, and just a little to the side and behind the Oaks + Derby winner  circle. I was  able to catch alot of the  pre-race drama, the race itself, and the post-race celebrations. I do the infield to paddock and back to infield trip for every stakes race. so Im exhausted now.

GunBow 01 May 2009 9:55 PM

Having been at Churchill Downs today, I want my tombstone to read:

He saw Rachel Alexandra Run

GunBow 01 May 2009 9:57 PM

TO:KAREN2

It's about this simple,if the connections wanted RA to run in the Derby should would have. Make no mistake about it they have her best interests first. I think she could have possibly won tomorrow,but glad they left her in the Oaks. Some owners/trainers I admire cause they don't "cave" to what fans want,they do what's best for the horse only!

Mike Relva 01 May 2009 10:07 PM

Baffert is no doubt a great trainer,but with his attitude I'm pleased he "got his head handed to him" in the Oaks!

Mike Relva 01 May 2009 10:08 PM

I've seen FF run three times, once in the pouring down Louisiana rain, thin crowd that day.  I've never doubted him.  After him POTN and Papa.  Everytime that horse runs he wins me money I can't back out now.

One sentimental shoutout for the teenager from my hood and a good sized bet on his horse I Want Revenge.

NOLA 01 May 2009 10:21 PM

The best performance since Secretariat in the Belmont.  Simply awesome... RA by 20 lengths...unreal. Now its Dunkirk by 5 tomorrow.

draynay 01 May 2009 11:20 PM

Rachel Alexandra is why I love this sport. Her performance is why I got up after 1 hour of sleep and drove 5 1/2 hours. I love being a witness to greatness, and that is exactly what Rachel was in the Oaks.

I got a perfect view of her in the paddock. I was expecting a monster, but she was so peaceful, calm, and sweet. Just about every person connected with her gave her a pet, including a young boy being held by his father and Calvin Borel when he came out of the jocks room. Actually the whole field was so well behaved and calm; Since the horses were brought to the paddock late, most just stood in their saddling stalls receiving pets and pats.

As demure as Rachel was then, once Borel got atop her she turned up the intensity; it seemed she literally doubled in size, and on the track she completely dwarfed Baffert's filly. The race itself was a masterpiece. When I'm at the track and get excited, I start commenting out loud. As the field entered the far turn, I started paraphrasing Trevor Denmen's call of Sunday Silence in the 89' SA Derby; I started talking aloud "I think the Oaks is over. Rachel's going to romp". Then, as she bound away at the top of the stretch, I turned to others with "It is a romp, she's destroying this field, she's going to win by 9".

Having seen the horses run the stretch the first time with my own eyes, and then following the next parts of the race on a big screen, the field (or  should I say Rachel) came into sight again  a little after the eighth pole. Just as in previous races, Borel was virtually motionless atop her, except, of course, all the finger pointing and hand waving as he turned towards the grandstand crowd. Although not asked to run much in deep stretch, she still ran that final eighth in 12 and 1! And she didn't win by just 9. When I watched the replay for the first time afterwards, I couldn't believe how long it took the rest of the field to cross the finish line after Rachel. I have seen alot of great horses and alot of great performances in person, but I have never seen anything like that; a 20 length win in one of the premier grade 1 races!

The final time of 148 and 4 embarrased the 8.5 furlong time of the Alysheba, 144 and 1. The Alysheba translates into a 151 and 1 time for 9 furlongs, or about 12 lengths slower than Rachel. She ran about 12 lengths faster than grade 3 older males. However, having missed the Louisville Br Cup, I didnt know immediately after the Oaks that Miss Issela had gone 142 and 3 for 8.5 furlongs in the Louisvile. That translates into a 9 furlong time of approximately 149 and 3, or about 4 lengths behind Rachel.

Along the Beyer scale, I think Rachel ran about 7 points higher than Miss Isella/One Caroline and about 19 or 20 points higher than the Alysheba. The filly that ran 2nd in the Oaks came in with a top Beyer in the 74 range (Lukas entered 3 totally overmatched fillies, but w/o Justwhistledixie he gets one of them a grade 1 Oaks placing and all the breeding value that comes with it). However, I assume she ran a career best in here, although beaten by 20 lengths, and her Beyer will be about 32 or 33 points lower than Rachel's.

So, we are not talking about Rachel running in the 120+ Beyer zone, something I haven't heard about occurring w/ a 3 year old filly at the beginning of May. I know Princess Rooney ran a 120 and Inside Information a 119 as 4 year olds in the BC Distaff, and the fairy-taled (a movie was made about her) Mariah's Storm ran a 119 or 120 as an older mare when she beat Serena's Song at Turfway in the mid 90s. The brilliant,but fragile, Akinemod ran a 118 or 119 when she won the grade 2 El Encino for 4 year olds by 18. As a 3 year old Silverbulletday ran a 115 when she won the Alabama, but that came in August not May. I believe Lakeway might have come closest, with something like a 117 when she crushed Kent Oaks winner Sardula in the 94' Hollywood Oaks. Serena's Song ran a 114 in March when she beat the boys in the Lane's End(Jim Beam), and Winning Colors ran (I think) two figs of 111 when winning the 88' SA and Kentucky Derbys. Go For Wand is the one 3 year old filly I can think of who I believe ran a 120; I believe she came close to that number three times, in the Test, Alabama, and Beldame of 1990. Yet, not even Go For Wand was running close to 120 in May!  In fact, Go For Wand lost in the Oaks.  

I think the Louisville is going to get a solid Beyer. Miss Isella loves Churchill, and had run a 100+ Beyer there. Given her and One Caroline's form, the Louisville could get between 103-107. The Alysheba, therefore, will get 90-94. Rachel will probably be given 110-114. However, the figs may go higher than that, given that a low 90s fig for the Alysheba is well below par for graded older males.

I bring up the Beyers only because I feel a compulsion to do so after I witness a great performance. I want to make sure all the comparative numbers make sense.  But really, this wasn't about speed figures. This was about greatness, about a type of dominance the Oaks has never seen (At least since records have been kept). And Rachel won by 20 lengths without really being asked.

Borel wanted her to run at the top of the stretch, and he waited until he stopped riding her later than he has been in their last 3 races. But make no mistake, this filly was going on her own that last eighth, and as I mentioned, she did it in 12 and 1. Perhaps she's like Bernardini and, although Borel has never had to ride her hard, this is her best; she gives her best w/o having to be asked. Pat Day said Perfect Drift was that way, and while it appeared he would win certain races very easily, in other races when he was asked much harder there really wasn't an extra gear. But what if this is nowhere near Rachel's best?

It's hard to imagine that Rachel wouldn't have won any of her 4 races this year by about 3 lengths more than she did had Borel really ridden her hard. The 100 and 101 Beyers she brought into the Oaks were more like 108-110 performances. Because Rachel has been so dominant, her Beyers really don't reflect her perfromances. A fig, whether 101 or 110, is not going to reflect the fact that Rachel has been winning her races being eased.

It is somewhat like Cigar, who some criticize for "not being fast enough", because in many of his races in which he earned "only" a 114 or 117 Bailey was gearing him down at the wire. Thus, Cigar ran alot of figs between 114 and 118, with a top of 121(his only 120+ Beyer) while horses like Formal Gold, Skip Away, and Gentlemen each ran at least 3 figs of 120+, with highs of 125+. However, in some of those races, they were facing each other, so they were forced to run fast, to run maximum efforts. Perhaps Cigar could not have run faster than a 118 when he won the 95' Hollywood Gold Cup, but having been there in person, I strongly believe there was alot more in the tank.

I, and no one else, should need to see a 120+ Beyer for the Oaks to know that Rachel turned in a performance for the ages. Hopefully, I will never forget it.  

GunBow 01 May 2009 11:44 PM

None will withstand the finish of Hold Me Back. LOOK OUT!!!

EddieD 01 May 2009 11:59 PM

TO FOR BIG RED AND GREG J.

Well its go time! I'm sure about two things and that is Friesan Fire will set on top of all my tri's and super's and that MM will be played as my longshot. The horses that I will play under Fire I won't know until I see the post-parade. I have to see them on the track to help me decide on who and where I'll stick them under "Fire".  I have some ideas but the pos-parade helps me to sort out the rest. I'll still have time to run back to the computer and my tvg account to place my bets. As usual I wait til the last minute but it seems to  work well for me.

 I want to thank you guys for all of your wisdom, thoughts, and feedback.  You've been great.

Much good luck to you both and God bless you and this years Kentucky Derby.

See you all on the other side......

God bless "Friesan Fire"!!!!!!!!!

Horswld 02 May 2009 1:13 AM

I Agree... Rachel Alexandra Is A Monster! And Poor Stormalory... He Was Always One Of My Favourites.

As For The Possibility Of An Off Track, It Could Play Out Just As Well For The Synthetic Horses If They Take To It As The Dry Track. Look At I Want Revenge! He Comes Off A Solid Synthetic Race In Which Pioneerof The Nile Beat Him By A Nose, Then Comes Back To Run Two Excellent Races On The Dirt. Albeit, The Track Wasn't Muddy Either Time, But One Has To Take Into Consideration That Horses Such As Pioneerof The Nile And Chocolate Candy Have Never Had The Chance To Run On A Conventional Dirt Track, At Least Not Without Being Shipped East.

All Of The Californian Tracks Are Synthetic, And, Since There Are So Many Horses Out In California That Win The Synthetic Prep Races At Santa Anita Or The Other Tracks, The Owners And Trainers Have Never Felt The Need To Ship Them East Until The Derby. I Want Revenge Seems To Be An Exception. He Came East And Rolled In Two Dirt Preps.

Does That Tell Us How Pioneerof The Nile Will Handle The Dirt... No. Nor Can The Morning Workouts Alone Tell Us How Mr. Hot Stuff Or Chocolate Candy, Even Mine That Bird Or Advice Will Take To The Dirt. The Might Look Good In The Morning, But Not Run Well On A Sloppy, Or Even On A Fast Dirt Track. Then, There Is The Possibility That, Like I Want Revenge, One Of The Synthetic Horses Will Adore The Dirt Track, Even More So In The Slop, And Blow The Field Away.

With The Synthetic Tracks Popping Up Across North America, It Will Get Harder And Harder To Find True Superstars In The Derby Fields, Simply Because Of The Uncertainty Of How The Horses Will Take To The Dirt.

If I Had To Pick My Top Three Based Off Of Prior Dirt Performances, I Would Go With Friesian Fire, Because We Already Know That He Likes The Off Track, I Want Revenge, Because, Again, He Has Put In Solid Efforts In His Last Races, And Dunkirk, He Has Run On Dirt For All Three Races And His Florida Derby Move Was Awesome To Watch.

If I Had To Pick Three Longshots That Would Surprise Everyone, I Would Go With Flying Private, Who Looks Like He's Sitting On A Big One, General Quarters, Who Seems To Be At Rather Long Odds Despite The Bluegrass Win, And Then A Toss Up Between Join In The Dance And Atomic Rain (One Of Which, Atomic Rain, I Have Liked For Awhile, Maybe Not To Win, But To Fill Out Those Exotics). I Would Say Join In The Dance Because I Don't Think That Mine That Bird Will Be Up Too Close (Based On The No Dirt Experience, It Will Feel Odd To Him). Regal Ransom May Be Up There, But He Is Shipping In From Dubai And There Is The "Dubai Bounce", Probably More Common In Horses Not Coming For The Derby, But After The World Cup, And I Feel The Same For Desert Party, Although I Am More Comfortable With Him Because He Has Run Here Before. Nowhere To Hide May Be Up At The Front End, But (Even Though I Personally Like Him) I Think He's In Over His Head. As For Join In The Dance, I Think That He Could Surprise Us All By Posting Pedestrian Fractions Then Squirting Away At The Quarter Pole.

Those Are Just My Opinions, Not My Picks, Save For The Longshots. My Longshots Haven't Done Too Badly In The Last Couple Of Years. They Ran Three, Four, Five Last Year And Four, Six And Ten In 2007.

That Probably Didn't Help Anything, But I Wanted My Two Cent's Worth.

Whisperoak

Whisperoak 02 May 2009 1:32 AM

GunBow, I have a world of respect for your posts -- they're consistently well-reasoned and display a savvy understanding of the subtle intracies of this often vexing passtime we all enjoy. I particularly enjoyed your reference to the slow Beyers being posted on the syntethics and how some horses -- even talented ones -- are being adversely affected; I couldn't agree more with your parallel observation, i.e., "Did you all see the way Well Armed absolutely folded in the San Antonio after setting a rather moderate and uncontested pace." It dovetails, perhaps by sheer coincidence, with your suggestion that Regal Ransom is an intriguing play at 30-1 or better. I say this because following Well Armed's lackluster run in the race you cite, he absolutely whistled next out while on the dirt in the Dubai World Cup, winning as easily as could be in the world's richest race. Who would have thunk it off the race you mention? Perhaps it's meaningless, or merely a simple coincidence, but that blowout performance came shortly after the UAE Derby, in which Regal Ransom was able to hold off Desert Party at a mile and one-eighth in what was said to be an off-track, when both were some fifteen lengths clear of the other ten horses in the race. I bring this up because it could mean, just possibly, that Regal Ransom's ability to hang on to a lead, when allowed to settle, is vastly underestimated. Yes, he was beaten twice previously by Desert Party, so he's perhaps an improving horse, always dangerous at this time of the year -- or else you can take the posture that Desert Party was less than fully cranked that day (an alibi that is often offered when a prohibited favorite comes up short, perhaps?) and/or that Frankie Dettori gave DP a less than stellar ride by being too conservative. (It certainly wouldn't be the first time he's been maligned for a questionable trip on a vaunted horse; I still get violently ill when I remember how he butchered Swain in the 1998 Breeders Cup classic, whipping him relentlessly in the stretch left-handed and causing Swain to bolt 15-wide to the grandstand side, only to see Swain resurge yet again to finish a narrowly-beaten third to Awesome Again.) If there's a point to this it's that it wouldn't at all stun me to see him get brave on the lead tomorrow, particularly since there isn't, so far as I can see, any killer speed types that you allude to in one of your posts. Join in The Dance may help Pletcher with Dunkirk, but JITD doesn't invoke memories of Spanish Chestnut, let's say, and he won't, to my reckoninig at least, be able to go with RR at about the seven furlong marker. Few things are as easy as they seem, particularly in horseracing, so there is the threat, amid the prediction of possible slop and the Hard Spun-like workout given to FF, that FF might be a bit rank and could launch his bid prematurely, ruining my scenario entirely. Still I can't easily see using FF, other than in a secondary  or tertiary position. Now, a fair number of bright people seem to really like his chances -- a pal I respect simply loves him and plans to bet him like you're supposed  to vote in Chicago, early and often -- although personally, despite Larry Jones' seeming hubris, I'm not big on bucking TWO trends simultaneously, those eing the seven week layoff and no 1-1/8 mile prep, particularly with a trainer who seems to have already earned a "hardluck" label, by way of running second in consecutive editons with Hard Spun (thanks, in no small part, to the astoundingly fortunate trip Calvin Borel enjoyed with Street Sense; thank you again Calvin!) and with Eight Bells, who inexplicably died just past the finish line in such an inexplicable manner.

Most people have a "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" posture when it comes to their selections and I'm probably no different, as I have been eyeing Desert Party since January, even before he beat Vineyard Haven (alright, VH was not thriving there, but still). I can add that my only regret is that when I was e-mailing pals months ago about DP longshot chances to make some noise come today, I could have unquestionably gotten 100-1 had I tried to place a future book bet on him in Las Vegas. (Ugh!) Still, I'm going to use DP, despite his disadvantageous post, and I'll probably save with a smaller win bet on RR, while using both with POTN and IWR.

The Beyer crowd likes to cite Colonel John's sixth place finish last year as a reason to wave the caution flag at POTN's chances, but nobody without wings was beating Big Brown anyway that day, and what's lost, I think, is that it wasn't the track that did CJ in, so much as it was the rodeo-riding rough trip he suffered; forgotten by many is how he redeemed himself on dirt, quite courageously, in the Travers. (And yes, as Andy Beyer notes in his column how there were THREE OTHER synthetic horses that also bombed, too, last year, with Momba being one of them). Still, POTN's two G-1s and two G-2s victories this year -- along with three-time Derby winning trainer and on-thetop-of-his-game jockey Garrett Gomez ain't chopped liver. The clincher, so far as I see it, is that he's already beaten the likely favorite, IWR, not once, but TWICE, as well as Papa Clem, too. So, let me try to wrap my head around this, alrigh? All of us are to believe that these two --that is, IWR and PC, to a lesser extent-- can improve by leaps and bounds on the dirt and remain viable win candidates today, while POTN is a "throw out," given his record and connections? Well, I just can't fathom that, I'm afraid.

Moving on, I will use IWR warily --and probably a bit reluctantly on top, too -- but let's be real, here: despite his 113 Beyer in the Gotham and the visually impressive performance in the vaunted Wood that garnered him a 103 Beyer, he seemed to be running, for the most part, against a bunch of tomato cans, particularly in a Wood that was weaker than in years past. Am I supposed to believe that he absolutely towers over this field while WSB, with a 101 Beyer -- just two points lower! -- is to be universally dismissed? That simply doesn't make sense to me. (I do know, GunBow, that you mentioned him as a deep longshot play. The kindest thing I can say about WSB's chancces, GunBow, is his hidden "back class" appeal, in that aside from his maiden win at first asking, he's never run in ANYTHING other than a graded stakes race, never stepping foot in a single allowance contest. My larger point, really isn't to lambaste WSB -- he's perhaps as good a stab for a Giacomo-like payoff as any, I suppose -- but to note that any ironclad reliance upon his figures is a bit silly. I still enjoy reading what Beyer has to say, but my best guess is that in succeeding years, his figures will have a declining value as a predictor of success, much like the Dosage Index has fallen out of favor.)

Rather than a slavish devotion to any one handicapping system, I think, it's worth remembering that old maxim that has been noted by many smart players -- "The key to this game is making good bets, not necessarily in betting good horses" -- and that's why, so far as I can see, the "toss out," if you pressed me on it, could arguably be Dunkirk.

Yeah, I know this is a sacrilege to many and there si the likelihood -- not an entirely unreasonable one at that -- that this horse can blow the field away with such authority that he may  make Big Brown's performance a distant memory. Still, in a race like this, it seems that you ought to allow a horse like this to beat you, as he's the classic paradigm of a "good horse, but not a good bet," and I can't, for the life of me, envision getting on his bandwagon, despite his prodigious talent. Highly touted prodigies like this, it seems to me, are often all they're advertised and more and he may be the next Pegasus -- or at least Fusaichi Pegasus, who some have likened him to, in so much as FP did not start in his 2-year-old campaign until mid December. And yet . . . it seems to me that Pletcher has been playing beat-the-clock trying to get him ready for this race and he stands almost as good a chance of regressing as he does of moving forward. Yes, his move in the Florida Derby was breathtaking, but does anyone remember Arazi's run in the Breeders Cup Juvenile that palled in comparison? (Get it on YouTube; the announcer seems ready to faint). Moreover, does anyone recall his subsequent flop in the Kentucky Derby, the following spring? There is also the matter of the Flordia Derby emerging as a negative key race. (Has anyone heard much about Theregoesjojo lately?) And then there's the seemingly justifiable questions about whether DK, an athletic sort, is physially imposing enough to muscle through a 20-horse field, if that's necessary; that he was taxed too much in his hard-fought effort last time out to get the necessary graded money in order to race Saturday; that he's being managed by a a trainer who's justifiably desperate to end his embarrassing 0-21 skein in this race. It's all too much for me -- at what promises, for me at least, to be an underlaid price.

If I go a bit deper into the exotics, I anticipate using FF defensively, simply because he's a logical candidate to outrun the so-called ironcald "rules" that seem to be falling, one after another, year in and year out. Perhaps they do fall for FF.

Let's face it: this race isn't always won by the best horst, but rather, by the horse who is ready to run his best race on the first Saturday in May. Lil E. Tee. Sea Hero. Go for Gin. Giacomo. there are too many to count.

With that in mind, if I was looking for YET ANOTHER candidate to toss into the mix -- a horse who could show up if the metaphorical light bulb goes off in his head -- I couldn't do much better than HMB. He does seem to be getting a bit of the "wiseguy buzz" that I had envisioned would surround CC, but nonethless, what I see here is a horse that some are wrongly denigrating as just another synthetic surface specialist who has demonstated a clear animus for the dirt by virtue of his mediocre performance in last year's Lexington, in which he finised fifth to Old Fashioned, who was presumably loose-on-the-lead that day. Well, let's forget about HMB's sprightly look in the a.m. at Churchill Downs. And let's also ignore his six-wide finish to miss against the more widely appreciated GQ in the Blue Grass, when he was battling slow splits that doubtlessly doomed his chances. I won't even dwell on the fact that the conservative, but ever-dangerous Billy Mott has elected to bring this horse -- only his sixth lifetime! -- to the Big Dance. And while we're at it, please forget that since Ken Desormeaux, in search of his fourth Kentucky Derby mind you, has hopped aboard in the two starts this year, HTB's Beyers -- those all-important and sacred Beyers! -- have soared a whopping 20 and 16 points, respectively over the top fig he earned last year, as a juvenile. No, rather than getting caught up in any of THOSE tiny points, let's just focus on this: HMB broke his maiden, at very first asking, when he ran 1-1/16 miles in Arlington Park ON THE DIRT, albeit in an off-the-turf affair. Seems to me that we have here what some are claiming that Dunkirk is supposed to be -- a lightly raced, fast-improving colt.

However, depiste the buzz he's received in some quarters, he's still apt to be flying under the proverbial radar screen at 15-1 or better, while Dunkirk, unless I'm under some sort of self-induced delusion, won't be much more than a third his price.

Anyway, Good luck to all -- even you, Dranay!

Best,

Phileboy

phileboy 02 May 2009 3:15 AM

Pioneerof the Nile at the wire, I Want Revenge, Mr Hot Stuff, Musket Man follows.

TexSpect 02 May 2009 7:01 AM

I have just one horse to suggest for the Derby, recommend you use this horse in all tickets:

Flying Private

predict 02 May 2009 8:45 AM

RA was the best horse this weekend. To bad espn dumped the Oaks. I think RA would have buried most of The Derby field. I am surprised with the morning odds GQ the 3rd choice???????? IWR is at a higher price very strange indeed. I like CC to hit the board and won't ignore HMB,DP,PON,FF.

rowner 02 May 2009 8:48 AM

TexSpect, I can see MHS maybe getting a piece of it don't think he will win but sure can win a beauty contest wait until later this year. I also like IWR and he is now higher odds. Can't get my head around MM though but worth an exotic bet maybe.

rowner 02 May 2009 9:07 AM

Isn't karma wonderful? Milkshake Mullins and slew em all dead in the water.

jacass 02 May 2009 9:59 AM

Getting ready to leave for the Downs w/ that terrible news of IWR scratching. Unfrekinbelievable! To lose QR and IWR, as well as ThePP, OF, WW. Better they find the injury now than after he brokedown. What's the matter with this breed?

GunBow 02 May 2009 11:11 AM

I was actually wrong about Miss Isella having run a 100+ Beyer before. Her top was only a 88. I didnt have the drf in front of me when I wrote last night, and was thinking of the fig I saw in the program. Still think she ran 103-107.

GunBow 02 May 2009 11:13 AM

Friesan Fire, General Quartes, and Pioneerof The Nile.  There is no doubt in my mind that FF will win.  And Sandy, you are right, he has Seattle Slew and Secretariat running through his veins.  FF's pedigree is beautiful; he may have Princequillo's large heart.

General Quarters will be right up there and POTN also has a good pedigree; but it doesn't compare with FF.  I like all three of these horses.  

Mary 02 May 2009 12:03 PM

Yo J,

You're a "Smart Guy" in the Philadelphia Inquirer today?

Like your picks - especially since you didn't have I Want Revenge before he got scratched. I like the 10.

Good luck to all.

Manoa Tommy 02 May 2009 12:38 PM

GunBow---What's the matter with this breed? The equine geneticists and veterinarians are working on it with a boost from the completed equine genome map. Right now, I hope we're seeing the connections of these horses attempting to err on the side of caution, finally.

Know you're having a great day at Churchill!

Karen in Texas 02 May 2009 1:11 PM

Move CC up on a wet track. POTN daddy liked off goings and his mother won at Churchill by 10. With the track coming up like it is, it is FF's to loose (which he will).  No horse has ever won off a 7 week layoff...and he has never ran beyong 1 1 /16.

Householder 02 May 2009 1:52 PM

lol jacass...well,if the name fits,so be it!!!  I'm still alive!!!

Slew.em.All 02 May 2009 2:00 PM

TO GREG J

Good luck today! I like FF,if not then Gen. Q.

Mike Relva 02 May 2009 2:34 PM

Isn't Saratoga still a dirt track?  All the experts keep saying that this horse has never run on dirt.  My PP's say that he has run on it twice, and broke his maiden on it.........

Debra B 02 May 2009 4:17 PM

    Alright, I've just looked over the Derby pps for the final time.  I had some luck yesterday in the Oaks so I've got a little money to play with.  I had a $50 straight exacta 6-3.  I got back a little over $1000 so not too bad for a 1-5 favorite on top.  We were sitting at the 1/8 pole and when I saw the Stone Legacy making a move for 2nd, I was yelling like a fool.  Everyone around me was just looking like 'don't you see the 6 horse way up there?'.  The race was over by the 1/4 pole so all I was hoping was to see the Stone Legacy get 2nd.  I got my wish.

    Anyway, in regards to the Derby, I think there will be a bit more speed than most of us think.  I think they will go in 46 and change, not in the 47 range (most Derbys are run in the 46 range).  With that, I've landed on Hold Me Back.  He's 3rd off the layoff, which is an angle I like.  He ran huge to win the Lane's End off the bench and regressed just a little in the Bluegrass, which is to be expected.  He will improve 2nd time over dirt and he's seemed to really strive over the Churchill oval this week.  It doesn't hurt that Desourmeaux is very confident, but then again, when isn't he.  He won his maiden debut going 2 turns, which tells me the horse has natural stamina.  He's seemed to make pretty good middle moves in his previous races, which the winner will need to do.  I'll play HMB over FF, CC, Dunkirk, POTN & DP and run those horses again for 3rd.  I'll run that combo with HMB in all 3 spots.  A $75 bet and a ticket I obviously think has a real good chance at hitting.  Good luck everyone.

Curlin 02 May 2009 5:18 PM

SITTING BULL WAS RIGHT AGAIN! HUGE DOUBLE DIGIT UPSET.  "The Derby Winner will have first prepared on synthetics" (Householder).  "Do not bet anything that has not first prepared on synthetics." (Householder).  

Mine that Bird-Synthetics

Pioneer-Synthetics

Musket Man-Dirt

Papa Clem-Synthetics

Chocolate Candy-Synthetics

Summer Bird-Dirt.

I believe that POTN, Papa Clem, and CC are also from Cali.  

I am glad that Andrew Beyer singled these horses out "I will bet agaist all of the synthetic specialists in Saturday's race."

"...none of the synthetic track specialists will finish close to him" [I Want Revenge].

With Mine that Bird's wopping 81 Beyer can we all say collectively that BEYERS were/are completely useless!!!

Householder 02 May 2009 7:24 PM

Well, I've not been on here in a long time, but I just had to come on and congratulate my neighbor Leonard and also Chip we had a few $ on the colt. Doesn't do well to make fun of anyone.

Leonard had a stallion that we bred to a couple times. He had some of the greatest QH sires in the world Go Man Go etc.

Like I've said on here a bunch of times, some pretty amazing horsemen  (jockeys, owners and trainers) have made their way from New Mexico or through here.

Katsan 02 May 2009 7:51 PM

TO:JACASS

Great point,couldn't agree more! Just goes to show people that comes off as rude and thinking they know everything usually get it back in spades! lol

Mike Relva 02 May 2009 8:10 PM

ALL: Friesan Fire lost all chance at the start when Papa Clem came over sharply and body slammed him sideways into the horses on the inside. The Daily Racing Form is reporting that Friesan Fire was stepped on, which tore his left front quarter.

For Big Red 02 May 2009 8:45 PM

What happened today is exactly what I predicted.  A huge upset and the best horse didn't win but he was the best horse today.

Monica V 02 May 2009 10:22 PM

It's Saturday night and the Derby is in the history books.  I just reviewed all the posts on this blog, and not one person picked Mine That Bird to even hit the board.  It just goes to show you that nothing is certain, longshots really do come in, and even the best handicappers can be wrong.  I hope all the small breeders and owners take heart at Mine That Bird's victory.  Score one for the little guy!  

Daisy 02 May 2009 10:54 PM

Giacomo was close to unimaginable, but this...this was into the realm of fiction. Compared to Mine That Bird, Giacomo came into the 05' Derby with a much more realistic shot, even though both went off at 50-1. In Giacomo's last Derby prep he ran in a grade 1 in California and was only beaten 2 lengths, and had pushed Lion Heart when beaten a length in a grade 1 juvenile race. Additionally, while Giacomo didnt have a Beyer of 100, he had run figs of 97,95,94. I think alot of people focused on how Giacomo was 4th, rather than the fact he only lost by 2 lengths in the SA Derby, and dismissed the Cali contingent that year, with even the SA Derby winner, Buzzard's Bay, a relative longshot. Frankly, the Derby bettors just underestimated the Cali horses, because those that came out of the Santa Anita Derby ran 1-4-5 in Kentucky (Giacomo, Dont Get Mad, Buzzrds Bay..note that Dont Get Mad won the Derby Trial between the SA + Kent Derbys).

Unlike Giacomo, Mine that Bird deserved to be 50-1; actually, I thought he should have been higher. Perhaps one of the reasons he wasnt higher is because the memory of Giacomo is still somewhat recent? In my opinion, the two upsets shouldnt be compared, yet that's all the general public is talking about "it's like Giacomo, both 50-1..". No, this was unlike any other Derby upset, save maybe Donerail, and I wasnt around for that. This was an upset of true historic significance. Donerail in 1913 is the record Derby longshot at 91-1, Mine That Bird and Giacomo are next, and then Gallahadion in 1940 at 35-1. Yet, I truly believe Mine That Bird should be seen as the undisputed #2, and the greatest in the Derby's modern history. I know this field fell apart, with what I believe to be the two best males of this crop not in the race (IWR,QR), but I still think few saw this coming. On top of everything, he won by the largest margin since Assault in 46'. Crazy, crazy, stuff.  

GunBow 03 May 2009 3:53 AM

Let's see, here are Mine That Bird's credentials going in-

Class: Ran 2nd and 4th in non-graded New Mexico stakes this year. No horse had ever won the Derby via Sunland or any other track in New Mexico(I believe). The horses that beat him in N.M. were allowance horses in SoCal, led by Kelly Leak (a horse I saw at Santa Anita's opening week) and Scorewithcarter. MTB was 12th and last in his 2 year old finale, the Breeders Cup Juvenile, his only grade 1 race prior to the Derby.

Speed: He had the lowest Beyer figures in the field. His career best was a 81. I wonder if Andy Beyer is going to review and revise his Sunland figs? Since Beyers have been published in 1991, only two horses had won the Derby without having run a figure of 100 or higher, but at least Sea Hero had a 99 and Giacomo a 98. We're talking 81 here. That put Mine That Bird about 10 lengths behind Giacomo!

Breeding: Birdstone is turning into a nice sire and all, but Mine That Bird had the Highest Dosage Index in the field at 5.40. The lowest Beyers and the highest Dosage!

Surface History: Mine That Bird had not won a race on dirt. His only victories had come on Woodbine's synthetic surface.

Trainer: Mine That Bird's trainer Bennie Woolley is a virtual unknown nationally, and was a Derby rookie. Woolley had only had MTB since the beginning of this year.

Auction History: He was purchased for a paltry $9,500 as a yearling.

Sex: Mine That Bird is a gelding. Previously, only 8 geldings had won the Derby, but Funny Cide in 2003 had been the first to do it in almost 75 years, since Clyde Van Dusen in 1929.

Layoff: Mine That Bird entered the Derby off a 5 week layoff. Recently, Big Brown and Barbaro had won the Derby off just such a layoff, so it probably doesn't hold that much significance anymore. Still, prior to Barbaro, one had to go all the way back to Needles in 55' to find a horse that won the Derby off a 5 week layoff.

Works: Mine That Bird only worked once at Churchill, Monday April 27th. He worked 5 furlongs in 1:02, which ranked 19th of 26. So, no bullet work.

2 year old foundation: Here we have some positives, finally!  He started 6 times as a juvenile, and won 4.

2 year old back-class: Mine That Bird had won a graded stakes prior to the Derby. It was only a grade 3, and in Canada. However, the race, the Grey Stakes, is traditionally Canada's top open (not just Canadian breds) juvenile race, and had already produced one Kentucky Derby winner before, Sunny's Halo (won the Grey in 82', Derby in 83'). Yet, as mentioned, Mine That Bird had run last in his only US start, the Breeders Cup Juvenile at Santa Anita.

Jockey: Probably the best thing Mine That Bird had going for him was his jockey, Calvin Borel. Borel had already won a Derby just 2 years ago with the late-running Street Sense, and is known for his mastery of Churchill, particularly the rail. He also has had a history of winning big Churchill stakes at huge odds, such as the 06' Stephen Foster on Seek Gold, yet another late runner. Combine Borel's knowledge of Churchill, his ability to navigate the rail, and his past success in winning big stakes at the track with late-runners, and you have the perfect jockey for Mine That Bird.

I suppose it all balances out.......not! Or, at least it shouldn't have had if all this stuff we have been discussing the past 3 months means anything. I'm only half kidding, but this is just one crazy head-scratcher.

What makes it all the more absurd is that Mine That Bird won by 7. The race wasn't even close. However, the final time of 202 and 3 was fairly solid for what had been a slow, tiring track. The race did fall apart, given the fact no other horse was within 7 lengths of MTB at the finish, but horses like Pioneer of the Nile, Musket Man, and Papa Clem did not run terribly. I fully expect Mine That Bird's Beyer to be in the 103-108 range.

GunBow 03 May 2009 4:47 AM

Looking at Cannonero's pps again, maybe you can say he was as improbable as Mine That Bird. Cannonero went from a 3rd in a $3,500 Venezuelan allowance (although against older horses) to winning the Kentucky Derby. He was part of the mutual field so we will never know what his true odds were.

GunBow 03 May 2009 6:42 AM

Big props to Einstein. Grade 1 win # 5.  He's won grade 1 races on turf and synthetic, won a grade 2 on dirt, and ran 2nd and 3rd in grade 1 dirt races.

Cowboy Cal was also game, but he was up against Einstein.

GunBow 03 May 2009 6:44 AM

Hard not to think that Quality Road would have been just infront of Pioneer on the backstretch, moved a little sooner than that one, opened up a lead and then been near Mine That Bird at the wire, if not infront of him. Who knows about I Want Revenge. I think he could have won by 3, or, conversely, been bumped around like almost every other horse in the race, spun his wheels in the slop, and then spit the bit.

Even if Quality Road and IWR don't make the Preakness, there will be alot of questions to be answered. Almost every starter faced some trouble, and all have the slop to blame (although we cannot know for certain which horses were negatively affected by it, and which horses just simply ran poorly).

GunBow 03 May 2009 6:52 AM

I am told time doesn't matter... but of all the horses in the race the winner had the fastest 6f time at 1 1/8th.  The freak race combined many things to bring about such a result. Pioneer of the Nile showed us once and for all how important foundation really is when 3 year old horses run in the Derby.  But Borel combined his racing style with the track bias for the day and got a break being pinched back and saving the speed horse from running with the cheap speed.  Check out the fractions Mine that Bird ran in his last race and you will see what I mean. POTN and MM got there like I thought they would but who would have thought Borel would be allowed AGAIN to run free on the rail .... unreal.

draynay 03 May 2009 10:34 AM

How about Mine That Bird having Raise a Native on top of sire line and the dam's sire line? That's a first. I think only Barbaro had RAN on top of dam's sire line.

david 03 May 2009 10:53 AM

Draynay,

    I actually agree with you on the Track Bias(Rail), and Bo-Rail...You would have thought that the other Jockey's might have realized the speed on the rail in Friday's and Saturday's races and tried to take advantage of it...

Greg J. 05 May 2009 11:18 AM

I think jockeys get so paranoid of getting boxed in on the rail in a 19-horse field that they automatically look to the outside for running room.  And Borel is smart enough to capitalize on their paranoia, over and over again. What I can't believe is that none of the inside horses chose to follow MTB when he flew up the rail past them.    

Daisy 05 May 2009 7:37 PM

     I think the derby would have had a different outcome if IWR QR and  Old Fashioned plus Square Eddie would have ran in the Derby!!

Pedigree Shelly 07 May 2009 5:28 PM

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