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Who Will Have the Lead at the Eighth-Pole?

After scanning many of these current Derby lists (which, by the way, mean less this year than any other year, if that's possible), the consensus seems to be that the favorite is Dialed In. Rounding out the top 5, in no particular order, are Archarcharch, Nehro, Toby's Corner, and Uncle Mo.

The interesting thing about the new consensus top 5 is that three of three of them--Dialed In, Nehro, and Toby's Corner--are dead closers and a fourth, Archarcharch, came from way off the pace in his Arkansas Derby win despite laying closer to the pace in most of his previous starts. So if things stay the way they are, a lot of the public's money will be landing on closers two weeks from now. It has already become increasingly clear to me that Nehro is going to the wise guy horse. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see him as the third choice by post time.

But how realistic is it that a dead closer will win the Derby? Obviously, pace has a lot to do with it. If horses like The Factor and/or J.P's Gusto run, which will pretty much ensure at the very least a solid pace, it helps Dialed In, Nehro, and Toby's Corner. But even if the pace does favor deep closers, history doesn't. Longshot winners like Giacomo are easy to remember recently, but over the years it has been horses that have remained closer to the front that have had more success.

According to research compiled by TrueNicks's Ian Tapp, since 1950 77% of Derby winners had the lead at eighth-pole. Of all eighth-pole leaders, 95% finished in the exacta and 98% in the trifecta. The only horse to have the lead at the eighth-pole and not finish in the money in the last 60 years was Sea Cadet in 1991, who finished eighth after having to lead with a furlong remaining.

Here are the 14 horses that did not win the Derby after having the lead at the eighth-pole:

2005       Closing Argument (finished 2nd)

2001       Congaree (3rd)

1999       Cat Thief (3rd)

1996       Cavonnier (2nd)

1992       Casual Lies (2nd)

1991       Sea Cadet (8th)

1987       Bet Twice (2nd)

1975       Avatar (2nd)

1967       Barbs Delight (2nd)

1962       Roman Line (2nd)

1961       Crozier (2nd)

1959       Sword Dancer (2nd)

1958       Lincoln Road (2nd)

1956       Fabius (2nd)

Now, just because a horse has the lead at the eighth-pole doesn't necessarily mean he isn't closing from off the pace. In 2009, Mine That Bird came from last but had still taken over before the eighth-pole. But in many cases, horses that have tactical speed have an advantage in the Derby for the simple fact that many of them are going to be backing up in the stretch because they are running 1 1/4 miles for the first time.

For these reasons, I am inclined to favor horses that will be on or near the pace. In this year's Derby, that might include Uncle Mo, Soldat, and/or Shackleford. There is good reason to believe that one of them will have the lead at the eighth-pole.

256 Comments:

Decisive Moment.

Ted from LA 22 Apr 2011 3:57 PM

if the speed conserves their speed early which i think they will do, the far turn will a very crowded space. the lucky horse will get thru and have a good chance to win. the factor may be the speed horse that has something left on the front end and the least bothered or blessed horse closing will test that speed to the wire. so who is it?

rjb92 22 Apr 2011 3:58 PM

Ted from LA -

Please keep typing that name.  It's nice to see it in print once in awhile. :-)

sherpa 22 Apr 2011 4:16 PM

Soldat will have the lead and have me excited for my 2 future bets on him, Hope he holds on.  Bring on the rain, like my chances even more.  Although the rain at the Derby last year sucked.  

Antman 22 Apr 2011 4:24 PM

When closers win, they need to have the lead by the 1/8 pole as well-77% of the time. You couldn't ask for a more stone cold closer win than in 2007 with Street Sense and he had it by the 1/8. Whack-a-mole, I mean Giacomo, was an anomaly because of a sprinter burning up the early fractions and on purpose I might add. We don't have that and I think the pace will be tempered.

I am with you on Soldat being able to sit in the catbird seat and get a jump on everyone at the top of the lane, I also like MM, Nehro, and AAA to do about the same. They top my top list of potential 1/8 pole leaders right now----workouts/weather to come.

Horses like POF, JP, The Factor, UMoe, WMeGo, will all be fading. Some will be unable to make up ground from the midpack. This will make it very congested for deep closers like Dialed in. You cannot swing wide and hope to win,  you must thread your run and it must begin in the far turn and proceed with luck picking off as many of those not making up ground before the front runners come back to them between the 8F & 9F point and create a wall of confusion.

Jason, based on Nehro's LD, where he was never further back than 4th by 4 lengths or so, I believe he can lay closer to the pace if necessary. If Nakatani is riding him, throw out that advantage. He will have to have a set plan before the gates open as I don't have confidence in him to adjust to race condition-calvin, nehro needs you :0

I don't care what anyone thinks of this year's class, this is way more fun than having a great one sitting back and ruining all this speculating and postulating. I just hope we don't get punched in the gut by a complete sleeper like  in 2009 with MTB=Twice The Appeal=Midnight Interlude=Decisive Moment=Watch Me Go. I hate feeling like Linus walking out of the  pumkin patch, disillusioned and with nothing to show for 5 months of free time spent scowering for clues of a KD winner. Not to mention the ear chewing from Sally.

EL Kabong 22 Apr 2011 4:38 PM

U Mo has been at CD for 4/5 days still no work posted so that is no work since The Wood VERY INTERESTING SAY I -What day are they going to announce no derby for MO ???????? I thought he was supposed to work tuesday and that got moved back to thursday ???? its Friday Honestly I think there will be 4/5 defections from the top twenty list some are already announced I believe no derby for Astrology, J.p.s Gusto,Animal Kingdom,Jaycito,The Factor and MO I think Ill have more right then wrong! But I am about 0-16 in the last 3 prep weekends including first race at Keeneland today .I liked the #8 wow whatta  ride that horse was spent 3/4 of the way thru the race !!!! oh well I got the #1 in the 2xdogdare

Bluegrasscat 22 Apr 2011 4:40 PM

Mo is working on Tuesday. He is ready to work now, but they are giving them a couple extra days.

Jason Shandler 22 Apr 2011 4:52 PM

It's obvious to me that Uncle Mo(for whatever reason)is nowhere close to being the same colt we saw last year. To me he's a terrible bet. Soldat was exposed in the Florida Derby as a one dimensional speed horse who needs an uncontested lead with no dirt being kicked in his face. Shackleford also appears to be a need to lead type who's never proven he can pass horses. With all of the other speed most likely to enter the race,I can't envision a good trip for either colt. I'm looking at horses like Archarcharch and Midnight Interlude who can lay midpack or even closer and be in front at the eighth pole.

KR 22 Apr 2011 4:56 PM

Doesn't this all hinge on who Calvin Borel will be riding? I hope not.. I want the winner to be the horse... because of the horse. (not to discredit Mine that Bird.. he did awesome in all 3 races of the TC.)

jonette 22 Apr 2011 4:57 PM

Jason, I know that to you Mo' is the best 3 year old out there right now. And I agree with you completely. But at the same time, when you see horses start to develop issues a couple of weeks before the Derby or for any other race for that matter, how often do you see them perform well?

As of now, Jaycito with his foot issues, and Uncle Mo with the grabbed quarter & GI infection, are my two tosses. Value shouldn't sit well with them either.

The Rock 22 Apr 2011 5:00 PM

Superfecta time @ GP for the Christine Daae Race. Only way to make money. 7/8,9/8,9/2. Or just smash the tri. might get 8-1 on it.

The Rock 22 Apr 2011 5:17 PM

I have been trying to get ideas early however it is hard. This Derby can play out 2 ways right now-#1 The Factor,CTTT,JP's Gusto all enter and the closers will all be ready to pounce #2 CTTT,Shackleford,and Soldat will be out front and either Soldat or Shackleford win on the Top end

TJ 22 Apr 2011 5:20 PM

Throwing out Uncle Mo makes since, but consider just for a minute this fact.  None of these horses have ever run as fast as Uncle Mo.  

The Fish 22 Apr 2011 5:28 PM

If Uncle Mo is in the race he will have to hold off Nehro.  If he isn't Soldat will have to hold off Nehro.

Draynay 22 Apr 2011 5:35 PM

It must be really tough to let go of a dream and I can't say that I can imagine how it would feel because I've never ever been close to owning a horse that's a contender for the Kentucky Derby.  Having said that, UM, if he's really that good can make his impact in the races after the Derby.  I would rather wait on him that possibly hurt him by running him in a 10F off of 1 prep race, 2 workouts and an infection.  It just doesn't seem like a good idea.

He can win the Preakness and the Belmont, the Travers, JCGC and the Classic and he will still be thought of as the best 3 yr old since Point Given.

The Rock : Are you from east or west coast ?  Just curious as I don't remember you handicapping the west coast races, or maybe you have and I just missed it counting my millions from hitting Tris, P4s, P6s and Exactas...

I wanted to see what you think of the races here.  I'm looking forward to Hollywood Park but it also means Summer is almost here and I really don't like the fair races.  I don't even like betting Delmar but I will try and go there one weekend this summer and check it out.

jayjay 22 Apr 2011 5:45 PM

Master of Hounds first at the finish, followed by Shackelford and Dialed In.

DJC 22 Apr 2011 5:48 PM

WOW that just happened --M/L  #1    6-1    I bet him -he goes  fav and is the PICK and JV flies home on a 9-1 for his 4th win of the day     ---0-17   I will try and post my derby picks early so you guys can cross thru those horses LMAO ARCHARCHARCH or hahaha  I guess if you say his name fast enuff it kinda sounds like a laugh Oh by the way they named him that to make sure people remembered it!!!!!!! I have short term memory loss I played him a couple back-28 $ to win and nice ex--- but could not see past Brethren in the AD Hey there is a TC chat at brisnet.com from 7-9 tonite and no I do not work for them .

Bluegrasscat 22 Apr 2011 5:50 PM

I'm at least glad to see that no mo mo has not found this blog yet.

I agree that the final turn could end up being a very crowded place this year. El kabong is right, whichever closer horse can start picking off horses at the START of the final turn and not swing 8 or 9 wide, and still be in the top 5 coming out of the final turn will have a great chance to show their closing speed. Certainly Midnite, Nehro and Tobys Corner have shown that they can do that. But I am really curious as to why everyone (handicappers and bloggers) are leaving Mucho Macho Man out of this group? Granted his beer isn't great, but neither is anybody elses. And everybody keeps Nehro in their closer group, yet MMM was right there with him in the LA Derby with only 3 shoes on!  I can't leave MMM out of my superfecta.  I have MMM, Archx3, Midnight, and Nehro in mine, with Tobys Corner, and Pants on Fire in hot pursuit.

And also like el kabong said, for all of the cry babies whining about this years crop of 3 YO's, this is a LOT more fun than if we just had Uncle Mo as shoe in to win.

Bill in Atlanta 22 Apr 2011 5:59 PM

In 2001 Monarchos took up the running inside the final furlong and won by five lengths. I do believe that Dialed In is just as explosive as Monarchos.  Soldat, Shackleford, The Factor and perhaps Comma to The Top will be gunning for the lead, thus ensuring a wicked pace.  Dialed In will be within striking range by the time they get to the quarter pole ...just immagine the rest.

Ranagulzion 22 Apr 2011 6:04 PM

I see Mo, Pants on fire, Shackelford and Soldat all having the lead at the turn. Then horses like AAA, MMM, MI, Toby's Corner will have first crack at the pace meltdown. AAA, MMM and Toby's will have first crack. With DI bobbing and weaving. When the smoke clear I think it will be Nehro, Tobys, AAA and Shakelford trying to hold on!

It aint easy being good 22 Apr 2011 6:09 PM

Dang, If I just reverse the 3rd and 4th hole in the super i hit the super. $1 pays $57! Ugh, missed opportunity. 7/89/289/289 =$4....ugh, And I obviously would've played it multiple times. Only had $3 in my acct. lol. Just wanted to mess around a bit. Oh well. Christine Daae looked strong coming back, just like her 1st two races.

Jayjay,

I live in Miami now. I grew up in the Bay Area by Bay Meadows in San Mateo, CA. I used to love going to the fair circuit as a kid. Bay Meadows was a dump after the 90's. Lived in So cal from 07-09. Went to Santa Anita & Del Mar often. Growing up I almost exclusively played the West Coast races. Now i'll spot play and play both coasts. I've always felt the Hollywood meet was more formful than the others. Del Mar is really tough to figure out sometimes. But I love opening day there! Lots of Eye Candy.

FYI, look out for Squad in the 4th I believe (MSW on turf). I know the Asst. Trainer out there who's handling Proctor's string. I think Quinonez will do the trick today at an inflated price. Bullet work last time. She usually doesn't work them like that.

The Rock 22 Apr 2011 6:35 PM

This year there is not going to be one or two horses with the lead at the 1/8th pole. With this group, there are going to be 14 strung across the track with the lead at the 1/8th pole... and they're all going to be 7-1.

RickS 22 Apr 2011 7:08 PM

Jason : I guess it didn't get through the first 1000 times you told me you don't make your picks until the posts have been drawn...but just watched the Live Blog and seems to me you contradicted yourself again.  I did a doubletake when I saw you predict (with a lot of confidence  it seems) that Uncle Mo will win the Derby if he makes it to the gate.  I believed it when you said it again as your last comment.  Uncle Mo MUST be a super horse if you're willing to make that kind of prediction without knowing his post position.  I hope for your sake he wins, maybe he is a super horse considering he's going to a 10F race with 20 horses off of one prep, possibly two workouts and an infection.  OR, maybe the infection will save your credibility by his connections scratching him out of the derby.  If he does win, I'll jump on his wagon but my money is going to a slow horse :)

Remember I proposed a bet to you awhile back that UM will NOT be in the lead at the 8th pole ?  Since you already made the prediction, I'm re-proposing the bet.  Can't say "I don't make my picks until the posts have been drawn!!!" anymore...

I don't get why people are still talking about Shackleford, he needs 2 horses to defect to even make it to the Derby.  Unless ( and I hope it doesn't happen ) 2 horses get injured prior to the Derby, he has no shot at making it to the gate.

I predicted Dialed In will win and still believe that.  I don't see anyone else except if the weather plays into it, then Soldat will be the other horse on top of my bets, otherwise Dialed In will inhale these speedballs and will probably have the lead going away at the top of the stretch.  The other horses I'm thinking of playing with DI at the moment are Nehro, ArchX3, MMM, Jaycito, Soldat and Brilliant Speed.  The latter I had to add to my list because Steve H wrote a good article about him.  He's probably one of the best writers out there.

I normally wait for the post position to be drawn to figure out who I'm betting but I'm dead set on Dialed In and post position doesn't affect him that much since he's a closer.  

Billy : Since you don't like the way I bet, how about you post your STRAIGHT WIN, STRAIGHT EXACTA, TRI and SUPER...don't want to see you doing any wheel bet or multiple horses bet...after all, you told me it's all bs right ?  PICK ONE HORSE AND LAY OUT YOUR PICKS!  Let's see how it works out for you :)  

jayjay 22 Apr 2011 7:15 PM

I think Uncle Mo will have the lead at the 1/8 pole.

timgsmith10 22 Apr 2011 7:47 PM

Christine Daae is a freak.

Jayjay: zzzzzzz

Jason Shandler 22 Apr 2011 8:12 PM

The Derby looks, right now, like it is going to set up perfectly for Dialed In.  He can close into a speed favoring track (if that happens to be the case that day) and we all know there will be more than plenty of pace up front.  As long as traffic isn't against him, which I doubt will be a factor, I think he'll be tough to hold off as he makes his charge down the stretch.  

Equination.net 22 Apr 2011 8:45 PM

DRAYNAY

What's this about Mo "holding off"?

If he's as good as you think,comparing him to Secretariat he shouldn't have a problem holding off anyone.

Mike Relva 22 Apr 2011 8:53 PM

The Rock : I totally agree about BM being a dump.  I still believe that was a hit put on Hansen because of all the race fixing happening at that track.  Glad to know about opening day at DelMar hehe.

Jason : HAHAHA...that's what I figured, guess when you can't argue the fact, you just dismiss it and pretend you never said it.  It's okay, I'll let you pretend.

Just so it's on the blog for everyone to see and pat your back when Mo wins the Derby :)  

Excerpt from the Live Blog 04/22 :

12:33

Jason Shandler: If Mo makes it to the gate he will win

1:00

Jason Shandler: Talk to you all next week. Remember, Mo wins if he's in the gate!

jayjay 22 Apr 2011 8:54 PM

I don't see why this is so overlooked.  All the Indian Charlie's have not fared well this pre-Derby season once they stretched to 1 1/8 miles.  Uncle Mo is a fine looking individual.  But his sire will always be Indian Charlie.  Dialed In has the obvious running style, but he's inexperienced, and will have to put it all together to get the job done.

Valrico Gold 22 Apr 2011 8:59 PM

Bill in Atl.

I left off an M. MMM. not MM. I'm with you on Mucho all the way. I haven't forgot about him at all. Works have been terrific. Can't wait for Steve's eyeball report.

EL Kabong 22 Apr 2011 9:15 PM

We obviously have to wait for the draw, conditions and such but, all else being equal, I'm leaning toward Dialed In right now for objective and subjective reasons.  History has proven that the running time of the Florida Derby is meaningless - we have to look deeper than that.  Remember when Barbaro was all out to beat "somewhat cheap" speed to win the Florida Derby.  It was not impressive until you remember that horses won route races from extreme posts at Gulfstream back then about as often as Halley's comet visits.  Dialed In has to be given credit for overcoming some severe track biases as well; perhaps not as extreme as those of Barbaro, but still worth taking into account.  That's the objective side - now for the subjective.  The folks at Lanes End were kind enough to show me around a couple of years ago and when they pulled Mineshaft out I pretty much lost my breath.  I've been around horses a good share of my life, and he was the most impressive piece of horseflesh I have ever seen.  His offspring haven't proven to be precocious thus far, but he's just too darned good looking to not be a successful sire, and I'm pulling for his offspring to do well.

shaban 22 Apr 2011 9:32 PM

Why are some people still toting Uncle Mo in the Derby?

Check out these recent headlines regarding Uncle Mo:

"Uncle Mo Seems To Be Improving..."

"Uncle Mo Making Progress"

"Pletcher Will Be Keeping An Eye On Uncle Mo"

I'm suppose to have confidence for Uncle Mo with these reports?

Uncle Mo will have two workouts prior to the Derby, and then and only then will Mr. Pletcher make a decision to run Uncle Mo in the Derby?

Good grief.

John 22 Apr 2011 9:47 PM

jayjay, try some Kaopectate I am sure it will help with the problem you're having.

draynay 22 Apr 2011 10:18 PM

"Christine Daae is a freak."

Interestingly, she's bred on the same (TN-rated) cross as Decisive Moment...

sherpa 22 Apr 2011 10:19 PM

1$ Seperfecta Box .... Dialed In,Toby Archx3,MMM,Neahro,and Animal Kingdom.Ther will be major heat up font no matter who goes in the gate . It's a 360$ bet that covers the mid pack and deep closers.Gonna pay huge.

Playfriskyforme 22 Apr 2011 10:30 PM

No matter who has the lead at the 1/8 pole unca schmoe will not win.That being said, it won't be shakelford either he'll be backfiring like and old model t before that. He finished his last race pathetically slow. I'm seeing archarcharch, toby's corner, or the factor on the lead at that point with mucho macho man hovering closeby. unca schmoe will not win the Ky. Derby!!  

no mo mo 22 Apr 2011 10:48 PM

Eh? don't tell anybody,O.K.? The "Hound" will leave them in his wake.Those 90 Beyers will be panting in the stretch.A bunch of sprinters and nobody's.Hail the "Hound" at 12 to 1.Don't tell anybody Eh?

keroquackian 22 Apr 2011 10:53 PM

Sherpa, when are we meeting for you to carry my ****?  I think we're on to something.  

Ted from LA 22 Apr 2011 11:23 PM

draynay : No thanks, where's your $10 P3 bets for the weekend ?  Are you not too confident now ?  No more loud mouth bashing of "inferior" horses to Uncle Mo, no more TC winner talk ?  What's up with that ?  I asked you to post one bet and you can't even get 2 of 'em right.  I guess that talk of posting winning tickets is all but gone too LOL.

jayjay 22 Apr 2011 11:23 PM

Saturday Gulfstream DD.

Evil Powder and Dance Pal did everything right last time don't expect it this time.  Dance Pal ran against restricted and finally got the job done and Evil Powder ran the race of his life with a jockey that cannot find the wire. Huff n Hughes is first off the claim and has the 1 hole so he will have to be on the gun from the start.  A rail trip should help him look for him to get back in the winners circle and dropping 9 lbs should really help. Race 2 I am going with the 3 Successful Score.  The trainer is on fire and when he joins with Trujillo they win 33% of the time. Turf to dirt angle doesn't hurt and his works have been spot on.  Good Luck.

Draynay 22 Apr 2011 11:36 PM

So Uncle Mo is going to have two four furlong works after being sick and is supposed to go a mile and a quarter in a stampede after not even coming close to his two year old brilliant form. Not buying for one moment. Please don't run this animal! I don't care what Pletcher thinks he sees in a workout. Red flags all over the place.

derbylock 22 Apr 2011 11:53 PM

I'd love to have Uncle Mo win, being the fan favorite and all, but he just doesn't have the bottom under him.  Pletcher has really screwed him up by training him so light and not getting works into him.  He looked like a freak in the BC Juvenile, but now he's obviously too out of shape and inexperienced.  Same sire and same distance questions, but I expect Comma to the Top to be in the money if his owners take him to KY.  He's got a solid bottom and the experience.  Nehro looks like a good mid-money bet, and if there are enough defections I'll put something down on Shackleford.  

Michelle 22 Apr 2011 11:56 PM

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but shouldn't Hard Spun be included on your list?

fleetfoot 23 Apr 2011 12:16 AM

Midnight Interlude takes the lead inside the 1/8 pole, wins easily....

Matthew W 23 Apr 2011 12:20 AM

Jayjay,

Hope you got Squad. 9-1 Turns out it was the 6th race. Rolling on P3's. Need Samba School in the next. 3 deep in the last

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 12:33 AM

I don't know who will lead at the 1/8 pole but my gut right now says it is mucho macho man with a slim lead on decisive moment. Then coming into the picture will be AAA, nehro, brillant speed. Just look out that comma to the top and shackleford(if he gets in will fight for the lead). Dialed in is worrying me because the workout pattern is very light prior to the derby. I think they might skip the derby and go for the preakness to make some cash. I will have a better understanding after trainings begin at Churchill.

RJPPDP 23 Apr 2011 12:47 AM

Jayjay,

There were a lot of whispers about Hansen and race fixing. There were also rumors about Brian Campbell being involved in the same situation. Funny how the latter left after Hansen died. I miss those days. Slew of Damascus winning on both dirt & turf. Soviet Problem, Delineator, Lykatil Hill, Cavonnier, Macho's Issue, Dixie Dot Com, Lazer, Yearly Tour, Work The Crowd, Event of the Year, American Day, Bai Brun..etc... Miss those days when good horses ran often and when it was a big deal for a jockey or horse to ship from the Bay to So Cal. Always rooted for our locals.

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 12:48 AM

I heard they gave Mo a few extra days because they wanted to wait until he was 2000% sound.

MikeM 23 Apr 2011 6:58 AM

I see the race shaping up as The Factor,Soldat and Shackleford seting the pace with shackleford leading into the turn for home with Dialed In and Toby's Corner closing fast.Dialed In will get the nose advantage over Toby's Corner with Shackleford getting the Show spot.

Susan Eckard 23 Apr 2011 8:22 AM

Fleetfoot, I was thinking the same thing about Hard Spun. Im guessing Street Sense had already taken the lead by the eigth pole. Speaking of Hard Spun, his foals are hitting the track. I went to Pimlico last Friday to see his first runner, Filare L'oro start. I took photos and They posted them on Maidenwatch (more Filare L'oro) She looks a lot like her sire, even has that stand up mane like he does. She finished a closing fourth after a rough start. I noticed she had ripped the chestnut off of the inside of her right rear leg during the race, ouch! I was very excited to hear about his two recent auction successes. Highest priced colt at Doncaster and 2nd highest at OBS.

Criminal Type 23 Apr 2011 8:56 AM

If you are looking for tactical speed plus the ability to run mile and quarter, it will be Arch x 3.

Old Timer 23 Apr 2011 9:19 AM

I like Midnight Interlude and Archarcharch to be on the lead at the 1/8th pole right now with Mucho Macho Man and Toby's Corner looming nearby and Nehro and Dialed In in position to contend. It's all speculation at this point without seeing how they all work over the track. I'll be particularly interested in watching Master of Hounds work over the track but am concerned about his seeminglty late arival. Jason, how long will he be quarantined after he gets there?

I'm making no final decisions until the day of the race.  

the_wiz 23 Apr 2011 9:23 AM

Borel up on and working Stay Thirsty? Scratch that one from the win possibilities. They won't be giving him a rail trip this time around. If he tries he'll get choked off.

norail 23 Apr 2011 9:32 AM

Midnight Interlude: as sleeper? A colt that got beat by 1/2 in an 8F race run in 1:35 flat; returned to break his maiden in1:36 1/5 on a sloppy track pulling a bus; returned to win a 9F Gl in1:48 .66 defeating a seasoned Gl winner; whose trainer has the best TC record in the last 15 YRS (9 TC wins) A SLEEPER??? How can anyone think the task at hand is beyond him? Difficult task Yes! Sleeper No!

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 10:05 AM

Uncle Mo is going to win it.

darlene 23 Apr 2011 10:09 AM

The Rock

Remember Doonesbury, Silveyville & Moment To Buy?  I'll go back a little farther...Thunder Papa?  Those were some good ones but I may be dating myself.  I always liked Bay Meadows WAY better than Golden Gate (nicer part of town) but hated it when they built barns in the infield.

Smoking Baby 23 Apr 2011 10:22 AM

fleetfoot,

Hard Spun ran huge, but Street Sense took the lead before the 1/8-pole. Check official chart and replay.

Ian

ITapp 23 Apr 2011 11:01 AM

The average 8F split for the last 10 derbies is 1:36.64. The average 9F split for the last 10 derbies is approximately 1:49.37. Based on the derby preps at 9F any colt that has won with mile split 1:36 and a final time in the region of 1:49 should have a shot at the lead:

SA Derby :     1:36.05/1:48.66  Midnight Interlude

AK Derby:     1:36.18/1:49.34  AAA

FL  Derby:     1:36.38/1:50.07  Dialed In

Wood             1:37.26/1:49.93  Toby’s Corner

LA Derby:      1:37.24/1:49.92  Pants On Fire

B Lewis          1:35.07/1:48.63  Anthony’s cross        

The AK derby best reflect the likely leader at the eight pole as it is contested on a track that is not as fast as the one at SA. With that said the SA track seems to hav been delivering realistic times close to the end of the meet. The FL derby was run at derby pace up to 8F but not in the last furlong. If the SA derby time requires no adjustment for speed then Midnight Interlude should be the leader.

The synthetic and turf times were not considered in the exercise as it impossible to convert those time into derby fractions. That said Master Of Hounds, Animal Kingdom and Brilliant Speed could possibly be in the lead at the eight pole.

The above is not terribly scientific by it give a guide.

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 11:20 AM

Ranagulzion

“Midnight Interlude, that has no seasoning, having not raced as a 2YO”

I try my best to educate you and like a stubborn child your reluctance to learn is bothersome. We are evaluating Kentucky Derby contenders and not just some regular race. I have been accused of being historic. It appears with our spirited exchanges you have caught the history bug. No 2YO start? I would appreciate if you could direct me to the rules the governing Kentucky Derby contenders. Do you think MI is saying I cannot win the derby because I never made a 2YO start? It used to be said that the winner of the BCJ would never win the derby. Street Sense put that to rest. Which would be harder to do? (a) To win the derby in without a start as a 3YO (b) Breaking the maiden in the derby (c) To win the derby as a maiden in first 3YO start (d) To win the derby after spending two days on a plane. The aforementioned challenges faced eventual derby winner. The great one can overcome adversities and the simple matter of not making a 2YO start is pale in comparison to negatives associated with eventual derby winner. Big Brown made one start as a 2YO. Do you believe it would have made a difference if he did not? He was the best 3YO from his crop and would have whipped them irrespective of  zero starts at two. There is too much weight being placed on this irrelevant fact as those that made multiple starts at two were not in the same ZIP Code as BB.

A fellow poster who should by now be punch drunken from the beatings he has taken for Uncle Mo said the exceptional colt went from maiden to G1and that sets him apart from the rest. It is in fact an unusual progression and only the very talented can achieve success moving from maiden to GI. Not many heading into the derby boast such an achievement. The connections of the celebrated Dialed In were frantically looking for a 9F race and eventually found an allowance against older horses. He got beat in 1:51  and in spite of the leader swerving badly you big closer could not get by. Speedy Bob was not looking for a NW2 race for MI. He took his shot with MI in a G1 and the colt rose to the occasion.  

“Now you are backing an inexperienced colt”

Cold facts check: Dialed In has made four starts. Midnight Interlude has made four starts. Who has the experience edge? I merely compare the records of both colts to highlight that Dialed In is not as good as you and others think.

“You've jumped from a sinking ship to clutch at a straw like a drowning man”

I am amazed at your characterizations above. Master of Hounds is conditioned by one of the best trainers of rout horses in the world. I have previously outlined his achievements on dirt with horse that raced exclusively on turf. The colt is regally bred and his pedigree has had repeated success in Triple Crown races. These factors must be respected. He is the only colt heading into the derby that has contested a race beyond 9F. The race was his first in 4-5 months on an unfamiliar surface. The race was on a tiring track and he could not have been 100% race sharp. MOH performance in the UAE Derby is one of the top three heading into the derby. The next tow belong to Midnight Interlude and Nehro. The trainer is one of the best in the world and what you characterize as sinking ship does a disservice to promising colt, his great trainer and connections. Kindly post a retraction.

Speed Bob has been the most successful Triple Crown trainer in the US in the last 15 years. (3) Derby wins & (3) Runner ups; (5) Preakness; (1) Belmont. He is better than everyone else at preparing them for the big race. This must be respected. If he has material to work with, he should not be discounted. The extension on this colt strides is unprecedented on the derby trail. His sire is a Breeders Cup winner and a son of Danzig. Two of Danzig’s less accomplished sons have sired derby winners. Tulips are not the only things that bloom in abundance in Spring.

“I look forward to your post race comments”

I am not afraid to loose or be wrong as in the end it’s just a horse race and life must go on irrespective of the results. I will post the top six that will comprise my wagers in due course.

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 11:20 AM

THE ROCK

Noticed you mentioned you're from Miami. I'm org from there,also. I've always said "to hell w/ cold weather". lol

Mike Relva 23 Apr 2011 11:21 AM

Why do ya'll keep picking on Dranay? I think his Uncle M pick is brillant. Also the favorite Dialed in will be a great bet.  With the advice of all the expert prognosticators in here I will be betting the bank on those two horse.

The only horse in this race I would never put my money on is Toby's Corner, what a nag.

I can't wait to collect all that money after the race!

McGuane 23 Apr 2011 11:44 AM

Ranagulzion

“I do believe that Dialed In is just as explosive as Monarcho”

Should I start a fund to cover the cost of the therapy you will require to restore your faculties? At the end of the of the 2001 FL the next edition to the BloodHorse had Monarchos on the cover with the following: THE MOVE! When Monarchos passed his rivals they all appeared glued to the ground. Dialed In benefited from a swerving rival to secure a victory. You are comparing the lumbering Dialed In to the grey Flash. Name an institution of your choice and I will start the fund.

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 11:58 AM

Best horse in the race for 1 1/4mi is Nehro. But the best horse won't win, just like last year with Looking at Lucky losing. 20 horse fields should stop. 1 gate limit should go into effect.

okjoey 23 Apr 2011 12:21 PM

Uncle Mo----Dont like his running style. But distance, if conditioned right, should not be a problem.

Stamina is influenced mostly via the dams side. He is out of an Arch broodmare. Arch won the Super Derby going 10 Furlongs.

Indian Charlie had a milers speed. This is a classic bred horse. Speed on top of stamina.

Premier Pegasus would have won the KY Derby. Its now up to N--ro. Very much like Curlin was going into the Derby. Very inexperienced, but very talented.

Fire Slam 23 Apr 2011 12:41 PM

Like a pick 4 @ HOL from races 2-5 - If Amazombie gets beat in the 3rd leg, which i think he will, value floats.

$.50 - 5,(4)/1,2,5,7,8,9/1,3,5,9/9 = $24 if you add the 4 in the first leg. $12 without.

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 1:06 PM

With all due respect to Mr. Haskin, here's the scoop.

3  greatest Derby trainers of the last 25 years are Baffert, Lukas and Zito. Plus Jinks Fires is the obvious pick of the Derby Gods. Plus Arch x 3 has won at both 6 furlongs and 9 furlongs. If that's not "tactical speed" I don't know what is. There is your exacta box... Dialed In; Midnight Interlude and Arch x3. I still just can't see either The Factor or Uncle Mo getting 10 furlongs.

Old Timer 23 Apr 2011 1:40 PM

Is there anywhere that we can see Churchill workouts right now?

Rjppdp 23 Apr 2011 2:02 PM

If Mo makes the gate, we better know just how fit he is.  If he's putting back weight and healing from his GI issues that's one thing, but if he's not we better be fully informed.  Similar to The Factor (displaced palate) and Jaycito (foot problems) - if they have issues going into the gate, the public should be fully aware.

Ed K 23 Apr 2011 2:03 PM

Midnight Interlude is a toss !!!

draynay 23 Apr 2011 2:26 PM

McGUANE

You're kidding,right? So,it was "brilliant" back in Jan. for your pal Draynay comparing Mo to Secretariat and claiming MO will win the TC?

RIGHT!

Mike Relva 23 Apr 2011 3:13 PM

It is not impossible for Master Of Hounds to be on the lead at the eight pole. He has tactical speed and will be forwarded placed from the off. In addition to this, he is likely to race with lasix that wonderful performance enhancing drug. Considered the following, he excited a maiden race to run in the Gl Racing Post Trophy and finished 3rd. (No lasix) The 9.5F UAE Derby was his first start in approximately five months. He finished a close second. (No Lasix) The juice will be added to his already impressive list of positives.

For those who like this colt the following cold facts should further boast your confidence:

War Emblem (Our Emblem – Sweetest Lady by The General)

Our Emblem a son of Mr. Prospector; Sweetest Lady’s sire The General had an overwhelming turf pedigree.

Unbridled (Fappiano - Gana Facil by Le Fabuleux)

Fappiano a son of Mr. Prospector; Gana Facil’s sire Le Fabuleux was bred in France and had a overwhelming turf pedigree

Thunder Gulch (Gulch – Line Of Thunder by Storm Bird)

Gulch a son of Mr. Prospector; Line Of Thunder’s sire Storm Bird  raced on turf and was a son of Northern Dancer.

Master Of Hounds ( Kingmambo – Silk and Scarlet by Sadlers Wells)

Kingmambo a son of Mr. Prospector; Silk and Scarlet sire by Sadlers Wells raced on turf and was a son of Northern Dancer.

Like everyone else I am wondering if MOH can bring his A game to dirt. It appears all the derby winners sire by sons of Mr. P had strong turf influence in their dam line.

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 3:23 PM

Smoking Baby,

Unfortunately those horses were before my time, but I'm sure there were just as fun to watch. I was introduced to the game in 91' when I was 8 years old. And the funniest thing about Bay Meadows is that you will see the exact same people working the concession stands, pari-mutuels & self service machines. Now they just have an OTB adjacent to where the track is. I try to get out there once a year, and every time i do, its the exact same people there, gamblers as well since I was a kid.

Mike, to hell with the warm weather! lol. This heat is killing me. And its only going to get worse! I would take the 4 seasons of the bay area anytime. Wish I was there now. But professionaly, I'm stuck here.

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 3:40 PM

Why are some people toting Dialed In as their Derby horse?

The last time I checked Dialed In has this habbit of falling way behind the field in his races then makes a rally in hopes to win.

By looking at past 20 horse Derby races, Dialed In will be approximately 27 lengths and 19 from the lead going down the backstretch.  No horse in Kentucky Derby history has ever overcame such obstacles.

It won't happen.

John 23 Apr 2011 3:47 PM

Man! Russel Baze made a hell of a move with Lady Railrider and almost stole the 2nd at Hollywood. Chalk gets up. And I didn't play the EXA. Still rolling at KEE & HOL.

I was just thinking about the blog subject. Do I handicap the derby like its 9f's now?

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 4:40 PM

Just checked out the trials going on at Delta Downs tonight! Love Jess Like Alabama in the 3rd race. The breeder is a good friend of mine and this horse is sharp. 8-1 ML. Also, with the upcoming Giants Causeway being taken off the turf, Midst might be tough at a good price. Left her out by mistake without keeping in mind of the surface switch.

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 4:44 PM

Master of Hounds has run a 16th further in his prep, in 148 4/5th, which is as fast or faster than most of the others have run 1 1/8th. If he runs well on dirt(thats the big question), he will be in the lead at the 1/8th pole or about to take it and should be able to finish and win.

predict 23 Apr 2011 5:15 PM

Coldfacts,

Your post 23 April 2011 11:20AM was very good.  I have to say that you surprise me by projecting a break with the historical trend, in relation to Midnight Interlude having no 2YO seasoning yet you expect him to win the Derby.  That's not your normal line of reasoning therefore your conclusion is either very arbitrary (self-justifying) or you are venturing out of your league and comfort zone by not going with the historical pattern which is your forte.  

I do believe that I have a better track record than you in predicting trend-breaking results in the Derby, therefore you could learn a thing or two here Pal .  For instance, in recent years I picked Barbaro and Big Brown to defy history and Todd Pletcher last year to break his Derby-duck (where did you stand on the likes of these my friend, that we could put some credibility on your Midnight Interlude forecast).  This year I have been strident in my criticism of AP Indy's abysmal Derby record as sire and grandsire and have put my Blood-horse blog future on the line, predicting a continued shut-out in the Kentucky Derby for the pensioned stallion's immediate offspring (Astrology, Shadow Warrior for example) and his heir-apparent son Bernardini (To Honour and Serve, Stay Thirsty, Arthur's Tale, Crossbow, Buffum, Biondetti, Break Up The Game etc).  Notwithstanding, I've made exceptions for a few of his sons, including his most brilliant racer Mineshaft, the sire of Dialed In and Nehro, the two most likely to breakthrough in the Derby for the AP Indy line.  You can quote me on this; an AP Indy grandson will win the 2011 Kentucky Derby.  I say it will be Dialed In but I wouldn't rule out Nehro or Pants On Fire entirely.  My trend-breaker forcasting is not a venture beyond my comfort zone professor.

As for comparing DI with MI; the level and quality of the company that the former has been racing against is like chalk to cheese.  Be honest about it Coldfacts.  The Holy Bull Stakes still has to be regarded as perhaps the most hotly contested Derby prep this year and on paper the Florida Derby was the summit of Derby preps, if one can forgive the final time of the race.  I guarantee you that the graduates from those two Florida preps are going to be major forces in the Derby (barring a return to his glory by Uncle Mo).  You discount the chances of Dialed In, Mucho Macho Man, Soldat and Shackleford at your handicapper's peril.

Regarding Master of Hounds, you are preaching to the choir.  I have the greates of respect for the ability of horse and trainer, however my perception is that the RAN line will not prevail this year, therefore I'm tossing him.  Simple as that but if he were to win I'd not be surprised in the least.

Your comments reacting to my comparison of DI with Monarchos was hillarious (LOL).

Ranagulzion 23 Apr 2011 5:19 PM

Draynay, Cal Nation was quite the superhorse today. You sure have an eye for greatness. Please, enlighten us some more!

stevebiscuit 23 Apr 2011 6:06 PM

I can't shake the feeling that after all his heartbreaks and near-misses last year with Ice Box, Morning Line, and Fly Down, that this will be Nick Zito's year. He certainly has a horse capable of winning, and it's easy to root for him. The amount of emotion he showed after Dialed In's Florida Derby spoke volumes on what this horse means to him and how special he thinks he is. Maybe the gods were testing him last year to reward him this year. ;)

Flynne 23 Apr 2011 6:16 PM

THE ROCK

Moved to TN,near Nash. years ago,not much snow here,but winters are damp and can be cold.

Mike Relva 23 Apr 2011 6:32 PM

Cal Nation.......... beast? or beat.  Why is it that everybody calls a horse a beast after an impressive maiden win.  But, now let's wait and see how he comes out of the race.  There could be an excuse.  But beast and freak have to be earned.  At lest Astrology ran well enough that they should be pointing him to the Preakness.

Footlick 23 Apr 2011 6:46 PM

The dominance of the sons of Northern Dancer as Triple Crown broodmare sires is unknown to most. There are two colts in the top 20 whose broodmares were sired by sons of Northern Dancer. They are Stay Thirsty (Storm Bird) and Master of Hounds (Sadlers Wells)

Below is the record of Northern Dancer’s sons as broodmares sires in the TC series of races:

Big Brown – Nureyev (Derby/Preakness)

Street Cry - Dixieland Band (Derby)

Monarchos  - Dixieland Band (Derby)

Grindstone - Storm Bird (Derby)-

Thunder Gulch – Storm Bird (Derby/Belmont)

Empire Maker – El Gran Senor (Belmont)

Victory Gallop - Vice Regent (Belmont)

Fusaichi Pegasus – Danzig (Derby)

Colonial Affair – Nijinsky (Belmont)

Hansel – Dancing Count (Preakness/Belmont)

Eight sons of Northern Dancer have combined as broodmare sires for ten winners of 13 TC races. It is ironic that no grandson of Northern Dancer has been a broodmare sire of a derby winner. If Dialed In, Jaycito or Watch Me Go win the derby they will be the first in this category. Both Stay Thirsty (Storm Bird) and Master of Hounds (Sadlers Wells) have a significant historic positive going into the derby

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 7:03 PM

Below are the horses that either won or placed/showed in graded races that contested the SA Derby

Indian Winter 3rd Glll

Silver Medellion 1st Glll

Comma To The Top 1st Gl/Glll

Quail Hill 3rd Gll

Anthony’s Cross 1st Gll, 3rd Glll

Bench Point 3nd Gll

Below are the horses that either won or placed/showed in graded races that contested the FL Derby

Soldat 1st Glll/Gll, 3rd Gll

THAS 1st G11, 3rd Glll

Stay Thirsty 2nd Gl,1st Gll

Flash Point 1st Gll

Midnight Interlude was the only horse that entered either Gl races that excited a maiden race. Consequently, this maiden winner defeated six horses that had won, placed or showed in a graded race. Graded winner Dialed In, faced allowance and graded winners. By every measure Midnight Interlude’s performance superseded that of Dialed In. In a truly run race Dialed in has no chance of beat Midnight Interlude as he is simply a better colt.

“I've made exceptions for a few of his sons, including his most brilliant racer Mineshaft”

Are you serious about the above assessment?

Mineshaft  - 18 Starts: 10-3-1, $2,283,402

At 3: 3rd Prix Daphnis (G3-Fr)

At 4: Won Jockey Cup Gold Cup (G1), Pimlico Special H.(G1), Woodward S.(G1), Suburban H.(G1), New Orleans H.(G2), Ben Ali S.(G3), Diplomat Way H; 2nd Stephen Foster H.(G1), Whirlaway H.(G3)

2003 Horse of the Year and Champion Older Male.

Bernardini -   8 Starts: 6 - 1-0, $3,060,480

Jockey Club Gold Cup(G1), Withers Stakes(G3), Preakness Stakes(G1), Jim Dandy Stakes(G2), Travers Stakes(G1)

2nd: Breeders Cup Classic(G1)

•  U.S. Champion 3-Yr-Old Colt (2006)

•  Co-World Champion 3-Year-Old (2006)

Never raced as 4YO.

Coldfacts 23 Apr 2011 7:47 PM

Cal Nation did not perform at all. Lost a bit on that one.

draynay 23 Apr 2011 7:50 PM

Calvin is working Stay Thirsty and Mo? Looks like Repole is going to win it after all...

GoldenBroom 23 Apr 2011 8:45 PM

Jason : That was some coming out party for Cal Nation...the beast.

BILLY : I HAD THE EXACTA 8-1!!! (Anticipating another blog blowout LOL)

" Race 2 I am going with the 3 Successful Score.  The trainer is on fire and when he joins with Trujillo they win 33% of the time. Turf to dirt angle doesn't hurt and his works have been spot on.  Good Luck.

Draynay 22 Apr 2011 11:36 PM "

Unless of course, you pick the horse, then they finish way off the board.  This is really comical LOL.  Don't get me wrong though, keep doing what you're doing...and do it ALOT on Derby Day please.

jayjay 23 Apr 2011 9:15 PM

Everybody knows the fl derby on paper was strongest preps...the favs dissapointed.....you are saying the s a derby on paper was strongest? come on....nobody in the world thought that.....there were the best beyer fig horses in the fl derby....duh....the race wasn't as strong as , only a couple fired....so time wise neither was great.....but you are forgetting one of the most important things.....are you ready to learn something coldfacts.....time isn't everything...a horse can run like a champ if the get to relax....when thrown into race with great horses, the run bad....its called class....this is what happened in fl derby....soldat couln't get lead after being asked...same for the sprinter flashpoint! and others....so the horses gave up... so many contenders didn't fire.....and you keep thinking dialed in closed in 14!....horses cant move strong for 5 furlongs...diale in  used alot of energy to just get up to the field!  

KY VET 23 Apr 2011 10:08 PM

Jess Like Alabama came through at Delta, winning his trial by over 2 going 350 in 17:38. Price dropped from first flash of 44/1 to 3 to 1 second choice. Cheese n rice.... winner winner chicken dinner.

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 10:11 PM

Went in with six guys on Gulfstream Rainbow Pick 6. It was mostly chalk until last race but it paid over $3k. Of course, I have to split that seven ways. Not bad.

Jason Shandler 23 Apr 2011 10:19 PM

This Borel love affair makes me laugh.  It takes a good horse as well, not just the jock.  Does Borel win every race?  No!  He had his run, time to move on. He made history, don't think he will add to it.  

Really looking forward to the works and post draw to final have some information that matters.  The races have turned everyone's thoughts into a jig saw puzzle. Every week new winners, and new excuses.  Ready to sign my biggest winner ever if I just have alot of luck.    

Antman 23 Apr 2011 10:31 PM

Congrats Jason,

I played a 24.00 ticket and hit 4 of 6. Tried to add to much value and toss some chalks didn't work out to well.

Antman 23 Apr 2011 10:33 PM

Jason,

On your live blog Friday you said Cal Nation was going to run huge. The only horse in that field that could go on and do anything is the winner Adios Charlie and possibly the runner up.

Another over-hyped Pletcher horse bites the dust.

Geronimo2123 23 Apr 2011 10:36 PM

BTW,

At least Draynay posted that Cal Nation did not run at all and that he lost quite a bit on that one...

I am always reading on here how Dray does not own it when he gets beat. Well, he owned that one. You guys need to acknowledge that...Hopefully, Jason can tell us all why Cal Nation was so convincingly whooped by the winner and runner up in the Jerome.

Maybe Cal Nation hates a sloppy track. The winner Adios Charlie just looked much the best period, however. Indian Charlie over a Northern Afleet mare. Nice win...

Geronimo2123 23 Apr 2011 10:41 PM

Jason,

The question is, who's signing the 1099? lol

The Rock 23 Apr 2011 11:22 PM

KY VET,

I like your arguments.  Keep them coming.

Ranagulzion 23 Apr 2011 11:30 PM

Coming out party for Cal Nation? Just another draynay blown pick. Why listen to anything this guy says? You all could do better drawing names out of a hat!!

mr pibb 23 Apr 2011 11:31 PM

Calvin is working Stay Thirsty and Mo? Looks like Repole is going to win it after all...

GoldenBroom 23 Apr 2011 8:45 PM

Broom,

Stay Thirsty is a toss especially with CB on board. Borel will never win another Derby.

norail 23 Apr 2011 11:39 PM

Really, who knows. People predict one to win and they end up dead last etc..

Anne 24 Apr 2011 12:50 AM

So now some of you are going with a horse with only ONE Derby Prep in Dubai? Newsflash, people - the only Euro who has hit the board at the Kentucky Derby was Bold Arrangement (second in 1986), who had a prep in the Blue Grass and finished third. Those that came in off of races in Dubai or elsewhere were all SHORT horses; several made menacing moves on the turn but came up empty down the lane. The Derby is one of few remaining races in this country in which fitness makes a difference.

And one can't compare this to Euros who come later in the year, as for the Breeders' Cup. By then, they are race-fit, probably fitter than our horses are. But not in the spring.

Pedigree Ann 24 Apr 2011 8:27 AM

As a racehorse, I preferred Bernardini to Mineshaft.  Of course, I preferred Rags to Riches to both re: A.P. Indy's most brilliant racer.

2:24 24 Apr 2011 8:52 AM

Here's an oddball stat.  1990 (Unbridled) was the last time a horse won the Kentucky Derby after finishing third in his final prep.  In his last start, Mo didn't look like a horse capable of breaking a 21-year-old trend.          

And another stat - since at least 1962, no horse has won the Kentucky Derby after finishing worse than 4th in his final prep.  Adios Soldat.

And another - since at least 1993 all but two Derby winners came from a final 9f prep that was run in less than 1 minute 50 seconds.   And the two Derby winners that had "slow" final preps were both ridden by Calvin Borel (MTB and Street Sense).  This year's Florida Derby was run in 1:50:07 and as far as I know, Borel isn't riding Shackleford.    

So IF there isn't a pace meltdown, I think Pants on Fire or even Comma To The Top are more likely to hang on than the horses you mentioned.  

Kris 24 Apr 2011 9:40 AM

Just before the Arkansas Derby I went to the DRF website.  Somehow I clicked on a piece that included some of the jockeys entered in the race.  The face of Jon Court staring at the camera, I don't think he blinked in the minute or so piece, telling everyone who wanted to listen ArchArchArch will show what he's made of.  2 across the board did help ease the pain of finishing 1,2,4 on my Trifecta.  It's not always about the numbers of the previous races, more often then not it's what's said before the next race.  Good Luck everyone!!

Scott's Cause 24 Apr 2011 9:45 AM

I have to ask the Master Of Hounds touters here - why do you think he's the KD winner?  It's sure not in his pp's.    

He has one career win, a 7f turf maiden.  The chart from his last start calls the race a "subpar renewal".  Horses with a last start in Dubai have done awful in the KD.  His last race was at the Preakness distance but was more than a full second slower than the slowest Preakness in the last 50 years.  And he's never raced on conventional dirt.    

Then there's the issue that his trainer has never won a race (dirt or turf) at Churchill Downs.

If a US trainer were running this horse in the KD, most people would be rightfully bashing him for it.   So again, why do you folks believe Master of Hounds is the next KD winner?  Is C. Borel the jockey or is there something else I'm missing?  

William 24 Apr 2011 10:23 AM

I like Pants on Fire, Dialed in, Soldat, Arch3, Nehro,Tobys corner

I believe its 120$ for a 6 horse Tri box. This is what im doing!

PS Why dont people give BOREL hi credit he has dominated the derby the last 4 years so why say he cant do it again?  1 name for ya  Dennis of Cork ya thats right he got that nag into the money .

timgsmith10 24 Apr 2011 10:39 AM

GERONIMO2123

Really? What about the other 999,999 times he didn't own it? Please.

Mike Relva 24 Apr 2011 11:47 AM

Mike R

I was being sarcastic. In previuos post you see my pick and bet for the wood was

1 - Toby's Corner

2 -

3 - Uncle Mo

Maybeck 24 Apr 2011 11:55 AM

Ice Box made his move at the 3/8ths last year and it was enough time to get there but the traffic made it impossible for him to win and he was closing like a freight train too.

Bigtex 24 Apr 2011 12:33 PM

William- it is very deceptive to categorize Master of Hounds by his pps.  He is Group 1 placed, and ran a deceptively good race in the BC considering his troubled trip.  It is absurd to compare a time in Dubai on a deep, tiring Taoeta surface to any Preakness.  If the chart called it a subpar race, the certainly haven't called the winner subpar, so I doubt that they would have called Master of Hounds performance subpar.  He is beautifully bred for the distance, he has already run the Preakness distance and proven that he can handle it.  Dirt is a big question mark, as he is turf bred top and bottom.  We won't know how well he will take to the dirt until he runs.  Sakhee certainly took to it in the BCC where he just missed to Tiznow I believe, and he was purely turf bred.  He would not be my pick unless he is scintillating at Churchill prior to the Derby, but I will certainly have some tickets that include him, especially this year.  You may go ahead and throw him out and then gloat if he runs poorly.  That's fine.

Footlick 24 Apr 2011 1:03 PM

William

“Horses with a last start in Dubai have done awful in the KD”

Regal Ransom 8th of 19

Worldy Manner 7th of 19h

China Visit 6th of 19

I do not believe they have been awful they have just not been good enough. They finished ahead of 10, 12 & 13 horses trained for the derby in the US. Your conclusion is therefore without merit.

“He has one career win, a 7f turf maiden”

Giacomo had only a maiden win to his credit going into the derby. Sir Barton was a maiden going and eventually won the Triple Crown. It’s the derby weird results are achieved.

“His last race was at the Preakness distance but was more than a full second slower than the slowest Preakness in the last 50 years”

The configuration and the bias of the track on the particular day has to be taken into consideration.

“Then there's the issue that his trainer has never won a race (dirt or turf) at Churchill Downs”

Did Mine That Bird’s trainer win a race (dirt or turf) at Churchill Downs before his derby?

Some of your questions are valid but you are missing the most important one. Why would a world renowned trainer point a colt to the world toughest race to win if he has not chance? I am a supporter of MOH and I am aware of the negatives. However, I am confident the connections of this colt believe he can be competitive. He has not been tearing up the turf course with victories so dirt is another option.

Coldfacts 24 Apr 2011 3:18 PM

Pedigree Ann,

The derby has a history of delivering weird results. There are no rules governing preparation. Regret and Sir Barton never made a 3YO start before their derby victories. MOH has a brilliant trainer who would not bring as unfit horse to run in the world toughest race. The connections have won some of the world biggest races. They are not irresponsible or desperate people. There a negatives but the good one can overcome them.

Coldfacts 24 Apr 2011 3:27 PM

For all of those who have to start a comment with Newsflash and then give us the negatives for Master of the Hounds....we know them.  Please name us a horse without any negatives.  Here is the biggest difference between this year and previous foreign invasions.  Master of Hounds like every other invader had beyers that would be in the 98 range going into the Derby.  In previous years this would be up against beyers of 107s and such for american runners, while THIS year the best was 98 for Archarcharch, so if an invader would ever win it, this is the best chance even including all the negatives.

So, yes he is an easy throw out, but then again, compared to this year's contenders, he is worth a shot at big odds.

Alexaso 24 Apr 2011 3:54 PM

How good is Master of Hounds?

Here is the Timeform updated rankings, dated April 17, 2011.

Number 10 on grass in Europe.

       THREE YEAR OLDS

133p FRANKEL

128 DREAM AHEAD

121p PATHFORK

121 HOORAY

120 CASAMENTO

119p RODERIC O'CONNOR

119p SEVILLE

119p WOOTTON BASSETT

118 BLU CONSTELLATION

118 MASTER OF HOUNDS

117p DUBAI PRINCE

116 KING TORUS

JerseyBoy 24 Apr 2011 3:58 PM

Geronimo2123

Is Jason going to cut your meat for you too?

LAZMANNICK 24 Apr 2011 4:27 PM

Ranagulzion

Stay Thirsty worked well today and he is a Bernardini. However, his biggest positive is his dam sire Storm Bird was dam sire of Derby and Belmont winners Thunder Gulch and Birdstone.

Will the Derby jinxes associate with Storm Cat broodmares continue?

Nobiz Like Showbiz - Albert The Great – Nightstorm by STORM CAT

2007 winner of the Wood Memorial and Holy Bull; 3rd Fountain Of Youth.

Kentucky Derby finish 10th

Sidney’s Candy – Candy Ride – Wise Exchange by STORM CAT.

2010 winner of the Santa Anita Derby, San Vicente and San Felipe

Kentucky Derby finish 17th

Dialed In – Mineshaft – Miss Doolittle by STORM CAT

2011 winner of the Holy Bull & FL Derby

Kentucky Derby finish pending

Can your #1 pick break the trend?  

9F in 1:50 & 1:51 can provide the answer

Coldfacts 24 Apr 2011 4:31 PM

The Kentucky Derby is one of the greatest mysteries to solve. The idea that we are trying to figure out who will be in the lead at the 1/8 pole makes this puzzle even harder to solve. Each day I read this blog a find a tasty piece of information that allows me to create my exactas, tris and supers for the derby.

Some things I do not want to change:

1. I like the 20 horse field. The last preps we have that have been no bigger than 14 have not come up with a chalky result.

2. Calvin is a derby jockey. I agree he can't win them all, but I do not think MTB would have ever won w/o him. If he gets a mount, he will be on my exotics.

Right now I have MMM, Nehro, Toby's Corner, Dialed In and ARCHx3 as my horses that can win the derby. I do not believe 1 horse is a obvious lock because of the complexities of derby race.

Coldfacts and Ranagulzion keep it going, I always stop and read your posts.

RJPPDP 24 Apr 2011 5:21 PM

"Geronimo2123 Is Jason going to cut your meat for you too?"

Lezmannick

No, I did not bet on the horse and unlike Jason I do not think Pletcher is a great trainer. Not for 3 year old males, anyhow. I think Cal Nation was another overhyped runner from his barn.

Jason was actually the one who said Cal Nation would run big and have a coming out party. I can understand feeling that way since Dance City ran a nice Ark Derby...

The only person touting Cal Nation who has owned it here is Draynay...and that does not normally happen. Which is why I pointed it out (Mike R). I realize how often this does not happen even though I don't usually post here. I do post often at DRF's Illman blog under another name and have done so for years.

And actually, this is an excellent subject (the eighth pole) that Jason started on this thread of his blog.

But I handicap my own races. If Jason likes what I like, fine. If not, I still bet what I see.

For the backers of MOH, what makes you think he will not get in trouble and get beat rather easily like he did in the BC Juv? Is it because he was forwardly placed on the synthetic track at 9.5f? Does he have the speed to be forwardly placed with American dirt horses first time out on dirt in a 20 horse race without the faster pace compromising him?

I did see his race in Dubai and he did run pretty gamely in that race.

However, it's the trip and the pace that make the race--if the horse does not get a good setup and he encounters trouble like in the BC Juv. the pedigree will be an after thought.

Geronimo2123 24 Apr 2011 7:10 PM

Coldfacts,

It's not often I put the winner of the SA Derby as a sleeper,  but I don't think his odds will be below 25 to one. That would make him a sleeper by that standard alone, but with all the seasoned and tough runners out of the SA Derby, it's just not the same race. Nor can the effort be judged as such. Combine that with his lack of foundation and you will not have a leading candidate in Midnight Interlude. Baffert bucks will drive his odds down and so will other West Coast biased money, but his chances of WINNING, not placing, will be based on his winning odds. I don't think he is battle tested enough to be considered with some of the rest of the field to win and will be quite the surprise if he does. I believe his odds will be in the bottom ten, not the top 10 of this field. But, you raise a good point. Perhaps I was a bit harsh on him. I should have said Animal Kingdom instead.  

El Kabong 24 Apr 2011 7:25 PM

Geronimo: If I took "ownership" of every loser I had I would never be able to stop writing. Relax pal. Cal Nation ran a bad race. There will be better days for him and he will will plenty of stakes.

As far as Pletcher, please keep betting against him. I thank you in advance. Thanks for betting against Embur's Song at 9-1 and his other two winners on Friday too. My bank account is very happy for that.

Jason Shandler 24 Apr 2011 7:40 PM

GERONIMO2123

Agree with you regarding Pletcher.

Mike Relva 24 Apr 2011 7:56 PM

Uncle Mo has become the reverse wiseguy horse. Everyone wants to throw him out.

Reinier 24 Apr 2011 8:04 PM

Geronimo2123

Relax.  It was just a joke.  Actually I thought your post was very good and informative.

LAZMANNICK 24 Apr 2011 9:19 PM

Geronimo2123,

What a dumb derby question.  Every single entrant has to overcome the question...what if he gets into traffic problems and gets beat rather easily?

Alexaso 24 Apr 2011 9:25 PM

Jennie Rees had an article saying that Todd Pletcher think Mo's stomach inflammation is better and that he is eating well. He feels like he is improving. He says he hasn't lost confidence in Mo at all. I know everyone here has, but if he makes it to the Derby, he shouldn't be counted out.

Paula Higgins 24 Apr 2011 9:31 PM

To the post in the first five.  I agree.  MTB was a 1/2 length from Rachel and came in third in the Belmont with that premature move by Calvin.  People call him fluke, but he is another damn tough horse that a triple crown run and was never the same!  And he was Canada 2yo Champ!!!   Fluke.......I think not.

PMAC14 24 Apr 2011 9:55 PM

JerseyBoy,

Not meant as a negative comment on Master Of Hounds, but I take Timeform rankings with a "grain of salt".  

In other words, they're meaningless to most of us here in the States.

John 24 Apr 2011 10:26 PM

El Kabong

You made some interesting point and below are some comments:

“Combine that with his lack of foundation and you will not have a leading candidate in Midnight Interlude”

Midnight Interlude reminds me a lot of Big Brown in many ways. Big Brow made one start as a 2YO and in his 3rd career start he won the Gl Florida Derby in 1:48.16 exiting an allowance race.  Midnight Interlude won the Gl SA Derby in 1:48.66 in his 4th career start exciting a maiden race. Boundary the sire of Big Brown is a son of Danzig. War Front the sire of Midnight Interlude is also a son of Danzig. Based on the Report Of Mares Bred, Boundary bred 37 mares in 2005 and one of the resulting foal was Big Brown. Based on the same report War Front bred 49 mares in 2008 and one of the resulting foals was Midnight Interlude.  I love off springs from stallions that cover small books. Big Brown’s allowance race preceding the FL Derby was won by a large margin pulling a bus. Midnight Interlude maiden race preceding the SA Derby was won by a large margin pulling a bus.  Big Brown won the derby convincingly in his 4th start despite his lack of foundation. What makes you think Midnight Interlude cannot do the same in his 5th start? His sire War Front was a Breeder Cup winner and has sired a Breeders Cup winner. These talented horses from small books are in most cases far better than those produced from over bred stallions with large books. This colt should be one of the leading contenders for the derby based on his PP.  He will be on top in several of my bets as what he lacks in foundation has in talent. He is far more impressive than the majority of top 20 earners. A lack of foundation did not prevent Curlin from performing in the TC series.

“I don't think he is battle tested enough to be considered with some of the rest of the field to win and will be quite the surprise if he does”

Dialed In and Uncle Mo both have 4 career starts the same as Midnight Interlude. How are they more battle tested? He has a better derby pedigree than both and is a much better mover over ground. He ran the most impressive race of the three in their respective final preps. No other colt on the Derby trail has the extension in their strides like MI. I will take ability and Speedy Bob  any day over  the likes of the battle tested Santivo, Soldat, MMM, Comma To The Top etc.

Midnight Interlude is the colt to beat in the derby.

Coldfacts 24 Apr 2011 10:54 PM

COLDFACTS

     You been in the game awhile noted- don't take this the wrong way

          I am thinking there have been a lot of RAN horses over the last 20-30 years run in the derby- you seem to be using the ones that won to prove your point and forgetting the ones that did not do well !! It stands to reason that is an old line that a lot of american bred horses go back to it and there are probably 4-6 RAN line horses in every derby.Actually I counted 7 horses that go back to RAN once in 5x ped and 6 more that are line bred to the RAN line.Thirteen picks  in a 20 horse field yeah I like them odds- Its as simple as this you are making that out to be a factor in a horses chance of winning the derby I have just shown that the RAN line and $5 will get you an overpriced coffee at starbucks and yes thats the  COLDFACTS OF THE MATTER.I couldnt resist LOL--- SO   Here is my question to you since you seem to be all  about breeding why are you not all over Pants on Fire  ?????

 Be careful on MOH -A.O. seemed to be coming over to run at least one other so MOH was an afterthought -IMO and yes I will include MOH lightly he is not a toss out friend I say friend because if you love this time of year like I do then we could go back and forth for hours never agreeing but still having fun !!!!!! Just so you know I had not cashed on last 18 tries in the last 3/4 prep cards leading up to this weekend and I should have had both Adios Charlie played Justin Phillip at last minute but first choice was AC - actually won for the day with Prime Cut W/P and ex 1/3box 10$ so I am off the schnide so on to the oaks and then some name signing on derby day just like when I had the whole enchilada when the Cat came second to the GREAT ONE.well I did not have the super -thats another story     LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR ANSWER ON P.O.F  

Bluegrasscat 24 Apr 2011 11:14 PM

Coldfacts,

Stay Thirsty is a toss out for me with respect to the Derby for the following reasons:

1) Hes just not good enough yet and so far has proven to be nothing but hype

2) As I've stated repeatedly, I dont envision Bernardini being a first crop Derby-winner-producing sire

3) Neither Todd Pletcher nor Mike Repole has confidence in him, evidenced by the fact that he has no assigned jockey to date and they made the odd decision of skipping the Wood Memorial after he'd proven himself at Aqueduct over basically the same field that defeated Uncle Mo in that race, coupled with the fact that they put blinkers on him in the Florida Derby (where Mo should really have started), after his winning Gotham effort.

4) The Todd Pletcher operation this year seems like guess work and a shot-in-the-dark operation in getting to the Derby.  This is definitely not his year IMO (I wish Uncle Mo would prove me wrong).

The trend that will be broken is that AP Indy will become a Derby-winner-producing influence via the progeny of his most brilliant son, Minshaft.  I believe that it will be Dialed In but Nehro could also win it.  In the case of Dialed In, it would also be a breakthrough for Storm Cat as a broodmare sire of a Derby winner.  This has been long in coming and I consider it a bit of an anomaly since Storm Cat represents the prolific Derby-winning broodmare sire line of Northern Dancer.  

I don't fancy AP Indy's other grandson, Pants On Fire very much, being a son of Jump Start (another typical "AP" late bloom producer IMO).  However Pants On Fire does have significant inbreeding to the blue hen mare and great Classic influence La Troinne, which could explain his forwardness at this time.  I figure that he's likely to be stalking a hotly contested pace and may falter in the lane after trying to cope with big mid-race movers like Decisive Moment, Mucho Macho Man, Uncle Mo and Archarcharch.

Coldfacts, your reference to 9F times 1:50 and 1:51 are going to be redundant and irrelevant because of improvement by my pick.  Dialed In is a lightly raced colt thats been winning off fairly light training and raw talent so far.  Being an AP Indy/ Seattle Slew line runner he's only going to get better with each race and as the season wears on; a cold fact that you choose to ignore but thats okay.  Although most posters/bloggers seem to think that a major upset is looming in this year's Derby I beg to disagree.  The cream of the crop will rise to the top.  I'll post my race/pace scenario when the field has been finalized with assigned jockeys.    

Ranagulzion 24 Apr 2011 11:48 PM

Jason,

I was merely ribbing you. I actually love your blog and think this topic is one of the most important and most overlooked there is...have to disagree about Pletcher and 3 yo males.

He is among the best with fillies and older horses, although I thought he trained QR softly last year. Then again, with his injury issues, who can blame Pletcher?

Mike R,

Glad someone else agrees with me on that. It is kind of heresy to mention it on some forums.

Lazmannick,

Thanks for clarifying that for me, and thank you.

Alexaso,

Actually, it is only a stupid question if you do not understand what I was trying to get at.

No, every horse does not have to overcome trouble...the ones forwardly placed, especially in the Derby field, have lots of concerns. Traffic will not be one of them. Much will depend on the break and how fast they really are, and how much going near the front will compromise their staying ability (to carry that speed). MOH has shown the ability to run close up on the pace, and sit off it as well. With the former you worry about pace, with the latter you worry about traffic issues and overcoming trouble.

If I recall trainers like Larry Jones and Bob Baffert and even Dutrow said they were sending their horses early to take the lead (or in Dutrow's case he took post 20 to keep Big Brown out of trouble). Despite the warning, their horses did EXACTLY what the trainer said they were going to do because of their tactical speed. And their speed kept them out of trouble. It is a huge handicapping angle if you can find a horse that can carry speed in an American route race.

The problems start when the connections start to try and rate these types. Then, it becomes hit or miss. Usually miss. Speed is a huge asset in US dirt races. You saw that in the Rebel Stakes this year. But when a speed horse of that caliber is forced to throttle that speed down and run behind horses, it usually even further compromises that horse's chances of getting a route of ground. This year in major Derby preps. The good news for MOH is that he can rate.

It happened this year with The Factor. Garcia is on record saying he put a strong rating hold on the horse to keep him from going with JP's Gusto. In retrospect, it would have been better to let the horse go and see what he could do with pressure. Because the hold may have helped displace his palate. But hindsight is 20-20.

The unknown is--does MOH have the tactical speed to avoid trouble in the Derby field? Because, if your horse has tactical speed but you choose to sit mid pack you may really have to deal with traffic and trouble in the Ky Derby.

I was trying to find out where MOH's backers thought he was going to be placed early on if he runs. MOH displayed some tactical speed in his last race, and, regardless of what you claim, did NOT have to worry about traffic or overcoming the field from where he was placed-- as he sat right off the leader the entire race.

Think it through. If a horse with tactical speed breaks well and is near or on the lead, there is no traffic in front of him and no traffic coming back. The main concern then is pace and will the horse stay the trip.

So no, not every horse has to deal with and overcome trouble in every race. The real question for MOH, if he can run well on dirt, will be can he avoid trouble and stay the distance near the lead? Or will the connections take him back and make one run and risk traffic?

We know he has the pedigree to get 10f. Along with Arch Arch Arch I think he has the best pedigree of any horse in this field. It's the trip he gets that concerns me--and whether he can run on dirt first time out.

Those are NOT concerns that every horse has in the race. But they are MOH's concerns. But against this field, who knows? I am sure that is why AO wants to take a shot.

Geronimo2123 25 Apr 2011 12:24 AM

Gee that was profound P Higgins. Uncle Mo will have a hard time getting 10 furlongs coming off a stomach ailment. Nehro is your winner.  Mike, instead of criticizing everyone here, why don't you post your pick?  The blog waits to see you get it wrong again.

Sylvester 25 Apr 2011 8:21 AM

Jayjay, you are a joke!

"BILLY : I HAD THE EXACTA 8-1!!! (Anticipating another blog blowout LOL"

you had 5 different wheels that you posted on the blog, just for 1 race. None were exacta's, and you only had the 8 on top in 1 of your five wheels. What you call handicapping is what most people call guessing. So, good guessing. I am glad that you posted 8 different wheels and you hit 1 of them, an exacta. So, just for the b.s factor, IF you bet exacta's as well as your tri's and supers, you hit 1 out of 16 or 1 out of 24,  and this is just on 2 races???

That sucks man. You expect everyone to praise you and give you an attaboy for 1 out 24? This is for you and Revla, LOL!!! Better luck next week

Billy's Empire 25 Apr 2011 9:08 AM

i will stick with dialed in....

remember his race 2 back vs. older runners..slow pace..almost won..

also mucho macho man and pants on fire should be there at the top of the stretch..

smartyjones1 25 Apr 2011 9:22 AM

Mucho Macho Man is the derby winner !!  He will be 24-1 and will win by 2-3 lengths.  Hes working well and in his last he threw a shoe and still finished in the triple.  He will be right off the pace.  Close enough to take the lead from mo and will be able to hold off deep closers.

Frankie shuffles 25 Apr 2011 10:14 AM

"MOH has a brilliant trainer who would not bring as unfit horse to run in the world toughest race."

But he has already done so; in 2002 he shipped over Johannesburg and Castle Gandolfo, who finished 8th and 12th in their Kentucky Derby. And Jo'burg was the 6/1 favorite (and Saarland was 6.90/1 second choice, which was an incredible joke). People hadn't learned from the Arazi debacle; one overseas prep is not enough.

One prep, or even no prep, is often enough for the Guineas because everybody is in the same boat over there; the flat season has just begun and nobody is significantly fitter than the rest. Not so over here.

Oh, and Cold Facts? War Emblem's damsire is not The General (who's that?) but Lord at War, a marvelous Argentine runner who came over here to win the Santa Anita H, etc.

Pedigree Ann 25 Apr 2011 10:47 AM

Geronimo2123,

speed horses have to overcome traffic problems at the first turn. We all know, except for you, that the derby is always a calvalry charge to gain position for the speedsters at the beginning. Who are your favorites? It is so easy to give a 20-1 one shot no chance at winning. Even the favorite has an 80% chance of losing.

Alexaso 25 Apr 2011 10:49 AM

Geronimo 2123- I expect Master of Hounds to be mid-pack.

Pedigree Ann- M. Boutin did not want to send Arazi.  Mr Paulson said Arazi was going with or without M. Boutin.  Arazi took much longer to recover from having chips removed, which M. Boutin considered unnecessary since the chips were not bothering Arazi.  Johannesburg was not a 10 furlong horse.  Castle Gandolfo was not good enough.  It does not mean they were not fit- maybe one couldn't get the trip and the other was not good enough.  Mr O'Brien is a top trainer.  We will see what Master of Hounds will do, but I would think that the problem will be dirt and not fitness.

Footlick 25 Apr 2011 12:22 PM

Pedigree Ann,

A horse can be fit and not good enough to win the Derby. Johannesburg was champion 2YO but I never liked him in the derby. He was sired by a son of Storm Cat. None of his sons to date have sire the winner of a TC race. Castle Gandolfo was not a very classy horse and might have been entered because of his dirt pedigree. There loss should not be blame on lack of fitness.  My statement focused on unfit not ability: MOH has a brilliant trainer who would not bring as unfit horse to run in the world toughest race. The aforementioned statement made no reference to ability. Your post focused on one prep before the derby and questioned the fitness of MOH.

“People hadn't learned from the Arazi debacle; one overseas prep is not enough”

Does it matter where the one prep is recorded? The last four derby winners all had two 3YO races before their respective victories. Would Big Brown have lost if he had only one prep? There are no rules, there just traditional trends. You are advised not to be so absolute as the KD has a history of producing unbelievable results.

Oh, and Cold Facts? War Emblem's dam sire is not The General (who's that?)

You could have advised that I made an error with War Emblem’s dam sire. General who was bred in France is the sire of Lord At War. I was not difficult to find out, who's that?

Coldfacts 25 Apr 2011 12:27 PM

Ranagulzion

“Coldfacts, your reference to 9F times 1:50 and 1:51 are going to be redundant and irrelevant because of improvement by my pick.”

His last work was 49 and a bit. He will need a miracle. Doe Dialed In has a monopoly on improvement? I gather those that have run faster have ceased to improve. How much faster do you expect him to run with that heavy neck and laborious action? Revisit the videos for the SA & FL Derbies and focus on the action of both winners and advise which has the more energy efficient action. A more energy efficient action equated to more sustainable speed and the capacity to carry it further.

“The cream of the crop will rise to the top”

A rather rhythmical quote! On sire line has a monopoly of the cream of every crop i.e., The RAN sire line that has two representatives that will be at huge prices. The sire line that is second in Northern Dancer. My top two colts are MOH/Midnight Interlude. Can you imagine Kingmambo and War Front only bred 65 and 49 mares respectively in 2008? Giant’s Causeway bred 176 and is represented by the ambulance racing Santiva; With Distinction bred 177 and is represented by another ambulance racer, Decisive Moment. All other stallions are either over a hundred or in the high nineties with the exception of Bowana Charlie (66) and unraced West Acre (29) By the way Tapit who bred almost 200 mares in not represented. Stay away from horse from those over bred stallions.

Coldfacts 25 Apr 2011 12:54 PM

Coldfacts,

"Dialed In and Uncle Mo both have 4 career starts the same as Midnight Interlude. How are they more battle tested?"

You can't tell me you don't see the difference in competition between Dialed In's 4 races and Midnight interludes(I don't support the use of Mo here, he is not battle tested and I never mentioned his name. In fact, I don't believe he will be running in the race and I have been a huge critic of Pletchers campaign with this horse.That said,  who you race against and the distances count. A lot! There is no comparison between MI's 4 races and Dialed In's.

"A lack of foundation did not prevent Curlin from performing in the TC series."

A lack of foundation is exactly what cost Curlin the Kentucky Derby and that is the race we are talking about here, not the TC series. I'll even give Midnight Interlude a great chance in the Preakness if he hits the board at Louisville, but he won't win here. He'd have to be better than Big Brown and Curlin. That would make him the sleeper of the century.

And for the last time please stop comparing the times at SA to the times at Gulfstream Park as if they were apples to apples. Look at the track records for both tracks at 1 1/8. There is a  full 2 second difference for the 1 1/8 distance. SA runs much faster at the 1 1/8 distance so your continual use of this to support SA times against GP is a ridiculously moot point.  

El Kabong 25 Apr 2011 1:06 PM

Bluegrasscat,

I was all over Bluegrass Cat in the Derby and took no chances and played him with the field for a nice $500 plus exactor. Who said Mr. Pletcher cannot prepare them to run in the derby.

RAN SIRE LINE:

Are you aware that Storm Cat’s has more sons at stud than Mr. Prospector? I agree more RAN sire line horses accounts for the largest composition the derby field each year. However, they had to acquire the graded earning like every other sire line. The evidence suggests they are just superior horses. Premier Pegasus gave an example of the power and speed of the line. I do not believe the success of the line is due to the large numbers represented in TC series of races each year. In 2010 eight of the 20 starters belong to the RAN sire line only one hit the board.

I could be guilty of over analyzing the MOH entry in the Derby. Time will tell.

PANTS ON FIRE:

Number of  A P Indy sons that have sired the winner of a Triple Crown race – Zero

Number of Mr. Prospector’s grandsons that have been broodmare sire of the winner of a Triple Crown race – Zero

He might be well bred but not for the Derby of and other Triple Crown races. That said I like the colt but can safely state he will not be the winner o the 2011 Derby. He will not be fast enough to cover 10F in 2:02 and a bit.

Coldfacts 25 Apr 2011 1:17 PM

I am still thinking Uncle Mo and Nehro in a exacta box and my 5 horse tri and super box will be UM, Nehro, Santiva, MMM and Soldat.  I may add a 6th horse to the box but I will wait until after the works to decide.

Without The Factor in the race Soldat is going to be a tough runner for sure and if it comes up wet he is a beast.

Draynay 25 Apr 2011 1:41 PM

LOL @ BILLY : you're the joke, I put that there specially to get your reaction dingbat.  HAHAHA, man that was great.  I knew you'd go off.  I don't need praising from any of the 3 stooges, I win, I lose, and then I win some.  Sucks for you that you spend all this energy blogging about my way of winning LOL.  Like I said, get a life dude. HAHAHA

JayJay 25 Apr 2011 1:54 PM

Is Rosie the listed jock to ride Pants on Fire????????????????? i like this horse to upset the apple cart.

datflippinrabbit 25 Apr 2011 2:18 PM

Billy, we all know jayjay is full of it.  I went to the track yesterday to bet my DD at Gulfstream and got there 2 minutes late.  But before I left I looked at Aqueduct and noticed it was sloppy and with 2 minutes before post looked for a speed horse and found the 6 and bet 100 to W/P.  He won and I took the profit and put it all down on Cal Nation to win in the Jerome.  The rest is history lol.  Unlike jayjay I posted my win ticket on my facebook.  You will never see jayjay post a winning ticket.  He creates his winning tickets AFTER the race.

Draynay 25 Apr 2011 2:39 PM

AAA, Nehro, Dialed In, Uncle Mo, Midnight Interlude, MMM, Pants on Fire.  Think your winner, exacta, and trifecta come from this group.

2:24 25 Apr 2011 3:00 PM

forgot to include Toby's Corner in my last post.

2:24 25 Apr 2011 3:02 PM

Moving on

Weather forecast as of today on Accuweather shows Sunny skies and no rain from Wed thru Sunday Derby week.

Billy's Empire 25 Apr 2011 4:40 PM

I JUST SHAKE MY HEAD MOST OF THE TIME READING THESE POSTS!...WHERE TO START? COMPARING MIDNIGHT I TO BIG BROWN? THEY ARE ALIKE? REALLY? BECAUSE YOU SAID THEY BOTH WON AFTER 4 STARTS? CURLIN LOST BECAUSE HE HAD NO BOTTOM? WHAT? BIG BROWN WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT..HE WAS GREAT RIGHT AWAY! MIDNIGHT WAS SLOW THEN STARTED IMPROVING...CURLIN WAS GREAT, RIGHT AWAY!!! HE FREAKED! AND YOU THINK HE LOST DERBY BECAUSE HE WAS GREAT BEFORE...THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN HAD A BOTTOM 2 WEEKS LATER? SOMEONE KEEPS TALKING ABOUT A HORSES ACTION...THEY SAID THE FACTOR HAD AN ACTION THAT IS PERFECT TO GO A DISTANCE!! HE IS NOT EVEN GONNA BE IN THE RACE BECAUSE HE ISN'T A MILE AND QUARTER HORSE!!! OR HOW SOMEONE SAYS TAKE OFF THE FIGURE 8 BRIDAL....REALLY? HOW DO YOU KNOW MORE THAN A GREAT TRAINER? YOU REALLY THINK YOU KNOW BETTER? WHAT COLOR IS THE SKY IN YOUR WORLD?

KY VET 25 Apr 2011 5:19 PM

After the draw I'm seriously thinking I'll be putting the 20 entrants on my son's dartboard.  I'll position the horses with the shortest odds towards the center and the longer the odds, the further to the outside of the dartboard they go.

Then I'll do my best to direct my dart towards the center and see what I hit.  That's going to be my win wager.

I'm not very good at darts.  No telling where on the board I'll hit.  Much like trying to figure out the winner of a wide open Kentucky Derby.

Runfast159 25 Apr 2011 5:37 PM

Now that there's a possibility that Shackleford will make it to the derby, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of wagon jumpers jumping on his but I say wait for the post draw before you start posting how he'll be on the lead at the 8th pole.  Same thing goes for UM and Soldat.

The one thing about the Derby is that often you'll find 1 or 2 horses that you don't expect to be on the lead, go for the lead, it's the effect of the 20 horse field.  So we might see some stalkers actually go to the lead and stay there if the speedballs gets in trouble or have bad posts.  That's what I'm worried about MMM, but really can't do much handicapping until the posts are drawn.  That's when the handicapping starts.  Anything before that is just wishful thinking on my part hehe.

JayJay 25 Apr 2011 5:38 PM

Alexso,

I do know that many of the speedy types will be vying for the lead on the first turn. Most of their concerns will be trying to avoid being pinched back or being hung 6 wide into the turn. Typically a horse trying to wire the Derby is not a good thing given the 20 horse calvary charge, the pace and the pressure. So, you raise valid concerns...

Every once in a while we get horses that are a threat to wire the Derby field, or at least sit just off the pace and pounce. War Emblem, Smarty Jones, Hard Spun, Big Brown...even Super Saver had a lot of tactical speed a received a perfect trip last year under Borel.

Certain speed horses did not have to contend with traffic on the first turn in the Derby. Hard Spun did not have to deal with in either the K Derby or the BC Classic because he had so much speed and stamina that he could get the lead any time he wanted it (and was still a threat) and any horse that went with him would not hit the board. Big Brown was another--what traffic did BB have to worry about on the first turn? Kent D had so much horse and speed that he merely had to break well from the 20 and stay 5-6 wide outside of trouble the entire race.

At one point I thought Uncle Mo might be another Big Brown type and The Factor could be another HS type, but now I am not so sure either is up to the task at this time--although both are threats if healthy and fit. I do have concerns about 10f with both of their pedigrees BUT the damsire of each is very classy (and sometimes a horse has so much speed that they can outrun distance limitations).

But generally, I agree with you about the calvary charge and the 1st turn. It has been the undoing of many forwardly place types. On the other hand, being inside and getting pinched back is even more of a concern with stalkers and grinders (remember LAL and Curlin)? Curlin got up to a distant 3rd in his Derby due to his ability, but he never was a threat in the race.

I will post some of my picks when we get a def. 20 in. I look forward to yours as well.

Footlick,

I expect them to probably take him back between 8-12 place as well. MOH does show some speed, just not sure if being near the front with American speed is the correct choice--so I am with you.

And he needs to get over the dirt effectively (and not like the typical turf horse) to be a threat at all here. Soldat did it...but for now it is an unknown.

Geronimo2123 25 Apr 2011 5:50 PM

Posting pictures of winning tickets and owning up to them probably makes the IRS very happy.  And if you don't think they look for those things, think again.  Their computers are programmed so that certain words trigger a search.  Their computers search the cyberspace for trigger words and then home in.  They may be doing it here, who knows.  I'm sure they have already seen all of Dray's winning tickets and are running a tab-lol.  Posting proof of winnings may not the most intelligent thing to do in this economy.  We do have a deficit and they probably want all the money they can get.

Footlick 25 Apr 2011 5:52 PM

Comparing what Master of Hounds accomplished in the UAE Derby, which was running approx. 1 3/16th mile in 1:58:83 to what the winner of the UAE World Cup, which was running approximately 1 1/4 mile in 2:05:94 on the same track and same day, should leave no doubt that he will definitely need to be reckoned with in the Kentucky Derby. Considering he was running for first time in 5 months, and his race results were 7 seconds difference for 1/16th mile less in distance. And it was older horses in the World Cup, which included among its losers, Gio Ponti,Gitano Hernando, Twice Over, Richards Kid, and Fly Down; who all loss to the Japanese horse Victoire Pisa.

I am just saying Master of Hounds has shown he can run a distance of ground, while running just off the pace and finishing strongly for a first time out race. If he takes to the dirt, and I will bet he will, then he should be first at the eighth pole and will finish first.

predict 25 Apr 2011 6:48 PM

predict- thank you for that comparison.  People cannot wrap their heads around the times run in Dubai. All they see is the final time and they compare it to dirt here.

Geronimo2123- exactly.  It all depends on how he gets over the dirt.  I do know he has the stamina.  What trainer in this country in this era would dare run their 3 yr old 9.5 furlongs after being off for 5 months.  Mr O'Brien showed huge confidence in the horse.  

As far as ducking Frankel in the Guineas, would you really expect Mr O'Brien to cut Master of Hounds back to a mile after running him 9.5 furlongs in his first race back?  I don't think the Guineas was ever a target for him.  His next would have had to be the Kentucky Derby or one of the preps for Epsom.

Footlick 25 Apr 2011 9:04 PM

Why should we pay attention to Master of Hounds, reason #2:

Similar breeding as Henrythenavigator, who ran second (when he was 3 years old) in the 2008 Breeders Cup Classic, losing to Raven's Pass, but ahead of Curlin. The race was on the Santa Anita surface,not dirt at the time, but this was a surface that we saw many a horse transfer their form to the dirt, and sometimes improving when on dirt after the SA track.

 Still not sold? Reason #3 will be when we see how he works on the dirt at Churchill.

predict 25 Apr 2011 10:10 PM

Don't worry Footlick you and jayjay are safe.  The IRS only tax those with winnings and you both have made it clear you can't pick a winner and ACTUALLY bet on it.

Draynay 25 Apr 2011 10:14 PM

Master of Hounds even looks alot like Henrythenavigator, so much so it's kind of eerie.

predict 25 Apr 2011 10:31 PM

John:

My provision of the Timeform Rankings was not an attempt to support or detract from Master of Hounds. I supplied the information because there were so many comments about the horse. It was purely for information purposes.

JerseyBoy 25 Apr 2011 10:32 PM

"Dialed In and Uncle Mo both have 4 career starts the same as Midnight Interlude. How are they more battle tested?"

Uncle Mo has 5 career starts. I realize the Timely Writer was pretty much a joke but it does count officially as a career start.

Geronimo2123 25 Apr 2011 11:40 PM

Footlick : Yes, I totally agree.  It's specially worse when you post tickets that's not even yours.  LOL

JayJay 26 Apr 2011 4:23 AM

Jason:

While we are on this topic, here is a movement we can start.

We should ask tracks to move the fence on the last turn outward so that when the front-runners enter the homestretch they end up some distance away from the inside rail. This will create room on the inside by spreading the field across the track in the homestretch. It will reduce the chance of the closers being blocked on the inside.

The Calder turf course is an example of this. It is so obvious , I cannot see why it has not been done.

It will be fairer to bettors, owners and jockeys. It will also be safer.

This might not be possible in the Kentucky Derby because the track is so narrow at the top of the stretch.

JerseyBoy 26 Apr 2011 7:56 AM

Quick workout note. midnight interlude may of worked a bullet this morning, but he never passed his workmate and he was blowing HARD coming off of the track. The Factor looked lathargic, tired, and not interested at all. He loped off the track like someone stole his breakfast this morning.

archarcharch, MMM, and Shackleford looked really good, the other's that were out did not impress. Santiva is tiny, twice the appeal and decisive moment did not look comfortable over the track. Best looking of the day goes to Plum Pretty. She had the look and she came off the track on her toes and not blowing at all.

Billy's Empire 26 Apr 2011 10:29 AM

If there is such a thing as a lock in racing R Heat Lightning is it in the Oaks.  No filly comes close to the speed and talent of this amazing filly.  I think it is telling that Pletcher has not even talked about running her in the Derby considering many are talking about Dialed In being the favorite and the filly ran a full second faster on the same track on the same day.

Draynay 26 Apr 2011 10:30 AM

Just booked a flight to the Derby.  Would love to meet anyone who will be there.  I will be hard to miss as I will be wearing a light blue pinfeather suit (think Matlock), have a beard, and semi-long, although recently cut hair.  I am also gigantic. Please come up and say hello if you see me.

2:24 26 Apr 2011 10:32 AM

Thanks for the infor Billy.  Good stuff.

2:24 26 Apr 2011 10:58 AM

Coldfacts, I am quite familiar with Lord at War's pedigree and his sire General (he is a French horse, so it has accent marks and is pronounced 'zhenerahl'). I am aware that he has also sired an Argentine Oaks winner in Abloom and a G1 winner in Panama in an otherwise less than stellar career at stud. I know that he won the Prix Thomas Bryon as a 2yo, but did not improve at 3, when he could only place in group 3 races, leading to his export. I was even a fan of General's sire, the splendid Brigadier Gerard, and was happy to see the Fair Trial sireline extended by Lord at War, a new option in the sea of Northern Dancers and Raise a Natives.

But you did not cite 'General' as War Emblem's damsire; you named 'The General', of which there are two in the ASB of the right age to have been WE's damsire, neither of any distinction.

A simple 'oops' would have been sufficient, you know. We all nod over the keys now and again.

Pedigree Ann 26 Apr 2011 10:58 AM

The Derby is a special race and we have 100 + years of history to draw upon but this year may be different.  Common wisdom tells us the future Derby winner must have experience behind him like MMM or Nehro.  Going into the Derby with only 4 or 5 races behind you is tough but this is not a normal year.  There are no 100+ Beyers to speak of and the highest Beyer is by a filly going 2 turns.  However this year we may find out if you can train your way into winning the Kentucky Derby.  Uncle Mo has been training perfectly and with vigor.  His work today was impressive and this horse still has 14 days to get even better.  Uncle Mo as a 2 year old posted a 108 Beyer at CHURCHILL and doesn't need to be that good to beat this bunch.  History tells us MMM, Soldat or Nehro have the foundation to win but this year we will find out once and for all if talent alone can topple foundation in the greatest race of them all.  My money is on talent for the win.

Draynay 26 Apr 2011 11:01 AM

Billy, midnight interlude is a toss for me and I am sticking with little Santiva on my ticket.  MMM and Nehro and Toby's Corner have a lot more appeal than Dialed In.  Nehro will have the jump on deep closing Dialed In and I will bet money Dialed In will NEVER pass him in stretch.  Dialed In is just not fast enough.

Draynay 26 Apr 2011 11:08 AM

Excellent Billy,

Thanks for that workout report. I know  most heard but MI's #'s looks exactly like Soldat's at Palm Meadows  24.01  47.28 59.07 gallop-out 1:12.76 and 1:27.82. Kiaran said he came out so well, he didn't even think he needed any of the two planned workouts scheduled before the derby. I guess they are going to work him once more this week and "try" to slow him down. Then ship to CD on Saturday.

El Kabong 26 Apr 2011 11:28 AM

Billy,

Your eyeball on The Factor was confirmed. Keep up the good work bud.

El Kabong 26 Apr 2011 11:50 AM

Poor Gilded Gem. She was working with PLum Pretty and broke down and was euthanized on the track. I thought it was Plum Pretty at first b/c I was watching her start her work on the backside and the horn went off about 45 seconds later.... Factor OUT, Shaq IN!

Billy's Empire 26 Apr 2011 12:01 PM

Nobody's waiting to the field is announced---OK then the breeding aspects--Boundary anyone? If you back into the 5 th generation back blah blah blah--talent trumps bloodlines I heard this from a good friend that past away a little while ago his name was John Henry---maybe a famous name trumps breeding or brown trucks just deliver on time.

Again I think anybody professing knowledge before the field and conditions are known show little talent in the picking department --AND FOR YOU CALVIN FANS (ENOUGH!)---good rider--knows Churchill---but he has never carried a horse over the finish line---Although I certainly wouldn't be disappointed with him riding my pick---he is NOT the best rider out there right now--- Derby inclusive --Julian L is the leading KY (Churchill) rider and would be my first choice because horses just run for him. Joel R would be my second choice because he is just in a zone---BUT LIKE IN CALVIN'S CASE THE HORSE RUNS THEY JUST ARE PASSENGERS----GIVE IT A BREAK AND STOP SHOWING YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.

USE THE SAME SYSTEM AND PICK THE PRETTY HORSE. It has the same credibility ----Ever hear the statement missed the wedding why go to the funeral? I hope all you wizard's still have your money from last year and the previous one--easy tri/super if you had MTB.--

Good luck to all. Happy posting your tickets.

sniper 26 Apr 2011 12:13 PM

They you go---Factor is out--pace scenario just completely changed early pickers

sniper 26 Apr 2011 12:19 PM

Plum Pretty may have something to say about any lock in the Oaks.

predict 26 Apr 2011 12:28 PM

No one with the name

"Sylvester" should ever use the word "profound." By the way buddy, Uncle Mo's 5 furloings today were better than Nehro's. How's that for profound.

Paula Higgins 26 Apr 2011 1:51 PM

I like the way you think predict.  Plum Pretty...Medaglia D Oro out of an A.P. Indy mare.  Could also be the "set-up" for ZAZU.

Householder 26 Apr 2011 2:09 PM

sniper : I don't think the pace scenario changed that much since Shackleford is now in after all these defections.  I also think regardless of whether TF was in or not, there will be a hot pace.  DI's odds just went down to probably 2-1.

How come no one's talking about Uncle Mo's workout in the slop ??  

Billy : Were you there for UM's workout ?  And yes, thanks for the workout reports.

"  My money is on talent for the win. "

Draynay 26 Apr 2011 11:01 AM

Draynay : What did you think of Uncle Mo's workout today ??

JayJay 26 Apr 2011 2:09 PM

Ah good memories Jason!  1992 is what the Derby is all about.  A $7,500 dollar purchase that one writer in Bloodhorse referred to as "Dumbo."  A relative unknown trainer, Riley, with a stable of 7 horses including Casual Lies, based at the Pleasonton Fair.  8 months later she would be offered 2.7 million for "Stanley."  An offer she would decline.  Second in the Kentucky Derby, Third in the Preakness, and I think 5th in the Belmont after developing a quarter crack.  She ran him anyway in hopes of earning the 1 million dollar bonus for the best finisher in all three races.  Could not quite hold off Little E Tee but bested the other Nor Cal owned entrant MC Hammer's Dance Floor. (Hollendorfer?)

Householder 26 Apr 2011 2:18 PM

predict.  Not sure about Plum Pretty's work to day.  Pretty slow 7 furlong for Baffert.  She has been hanging with the best of the west though.  Gotta watch the next work.  She may not like the track.

Householder 26 Apr 2011 2:31 PM

Jason:

Was just reading this.

Master of Hounds is slated for a trip to Churchill Downs next week for the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (G1), but his connections have left the door open to switch targets to the QIPCO Two Thousand Guineas (Eng-G1) on Saturday at Newmarket.

The Kingmambo colt is one of 15 horses, headed by unbeaten champion Frankel, who remain eligible for England’s first classic of the year. Final entries will be taken on Thursday.

Master of Hounds’ trainer, Aidan O’Brien, has two other Guineas candidates in French Group 1 winner Roderic O’Connor and Alexander Pope. O’Brien earmarked Master of Hounds last week for a flight to Kentucky on May 2.

tcc 26 Apr 2011 2:35 PM

jayjay, I was not there for Uncle Mo. He was supposed to work at 830, but Pletcher sent him out early at 545 am. I just woke up at 545. I did see the end of his work though, and he did it easy. He was even at the qtr pole with Calicbrocha, then cleared him by a legnth at the wire and 3-4 on the gallop out. I always use the horse's head bobbing action to gauge how easy he was going, and UNCLE MO's head was bobbing much slower than his workmate, meaning his strides were longer and he covers much more ground. If he fires a bullet next week, be wary of MO.

Billy's Empire 26 Apr 2011 3:49 PM

Householder, Plum Pretty also had her workmate fall down in the lane. Plus, as I stated above, she was not tired at all after the work. She passed the eye test wish I could post pictures on here...

Billy's Empire 26 Apr 2011 3:53 PM

Man, Mike Repole is a breath of fresh air. What a great news conference today.

Billy's Empire 26 Apr 2011 4:25 PM

Jason:

Ramon Dominguez will retain the mount on Stay Thirsty for the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (G1), owner Mike Repole said on Tuesday.

tcc 26 Apr 2011 4:29 PM

It would be odd for Mr O'Brien to cut back to a mile after prepping at 9.5 furlongs, especially with Roderic O'Connor committed to the race.  If they opt not to go to the Derby I would have expected them to target one of the longer preps for the Epsom Derby.  Interesting.

Footlick 26 Apr 2011 4:50 PM

Uncle Mo is the horse to beat in the Derby and everyone knows it.  The only two horses with a chance to beat him is Nehro and Soldat.  The rest of the horses are running to hit the board.  Secretariat was able to put the Wood behind him and I am sure Uncle Mo will do the same.  4 to 1 on him on Derby Day will seem like a gift.  With the Factor out deep closers are a non factor.  I will not spend a penny on Dialed In.  The pace sets up perfect for Mo and Soldat.  The distance will be an advantage for Nehro.

Draynay 26 Apr 2011 4:53 PM

JayJay, why no love for Mo? Let's give the little guy a chance to come back.

Paula Higgins 26 Apr 2011 4:58 PM

Some good observations there Jason and if we get an off track those closers will have even more of a challenge to overcome. I have liked Soldat from the get go because of his versatility. He can rate close to the lead and the distance or track conditions shouldn't be a problem. Of course in a field of 20 a bit of luck never hurts either.

Giddyup 26 Apr 2011 5:20 PM

THE FACTOR OUT?  DUH! IV'E BEEN TELLING YOU PEOPLE THAT FOR A WEEK! COMMON SENSE!  AND THE PACE DIDN'T REALLY CHANGE MUCH...THE DERBY WILL ALWAYS FAVOR COME FROM BEHINDERS!!! IT'S ALWAYS GONNA HAVE 20 ENTRIES NOW....THE PACE WILL BE TOO FAST AGAIN.....

KY VET 26 Apr 2011 5:22 PM

Ted, darling (can I call you "darling", considering you and Single appear to becoming an item?): I got my tickets and I am in worse than steerage: Sec 128, Row P, Seat 63!

Am I even in Kentucky?

Anyways, I will be in approximately the same seats for the Oaks (Joyful Victory and Zazu).

When you say "buy better seats", do they allow you to try to get RUSH better seats on the 3rd Floor?

I also noticed that the Rules do not allow you to bring umbrellas.  From what everyone has been saying, it appears that we will need rainproofing of some kind for Fri and Sat next week.  Am I out in left field about that too?

Soldat looks better to me when I think about mud (which I will feel like, sitting in the next state over -- what is it again? New Jersey?)

Love to you and Single.

(Jean from Chicago: where ARE you?)

mz 26 Apr 2011 5:22 PM

Footlick;

Do you know anything about Pathfork? I liked him early last year, he was pointed for the B.C. juvenile, then he had a minor setback, and didn't run in the race. Was just reading this: Pathfork, a colt with deep Kentucky ties, is definite for the Two Thousand Guineas.

tcc 26 Apr 2011 5:35 PM

Pletcher's filly entrance in last year's Derby was a disaster.  His filly would have been more competitive with Blind Luck and Evening Jewel than the "rodeo" getting bumped and banged up.  He has R Heat right where she can compete. In fact, I'm getting more excited by the Oaks than this year's Derby.  Although the "dart board" play does sound like fun.  It's at least worth a $1.00 superfecta. Runfast159 let us know when you have the numbers ready. I'm also planning on putting the form in my cat's litter box the morning of, just to see what he likes.

Householder 26 Apr 2011 6:07 PM

SYLVESTER

First,can't take you serious with that name. lol Also,how many pics do you get right? Please.

Mike Relva 26 Apr 2011 6:41 PM

Billy- I know Johnny V was on Uncle Mo but who was on Calicbrocha?  Another jock or an exercise rider?

Footlick 26 Apr 2011 6:45 PM

ONE SOLID DERBY PREDICTION BEFORE THE FIELD IS SET (and on any surface condition)---bet your house on it because unless a Sheik spends his $110 a barrel oil money in mass or China wants to invest on betting the KY Derby --I can say without any fear of being wrong Jayjay

NO ONE WILL BE 2-1 off odds in the Derby.

I forgot Act of God or computer malfunction.

Still a safe bet

sniper 26 Apr 2011 7:08 PM

PS not even if Uncle Mo scratches

sniper 26 Apr 2011 7:12 PM

SNIPER GOES WAY OUT ON LIMB!!! GENIUS!!!!CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!

KY VET 26 Apr 2011 8:30 PM

Although I am probably old enough to be your mother, I think I love you Mike Relva. Well said. Touche (accent over the e) SYLVESTER.

Paula Higgins 26 Apr 2011 9:04 PM

tcc- Pathfork is nice speed over stamina as he is by Distorted Humor out of a Sadler's Wells mare.  He has been second favorite and has an explosive turn of foot. He is certainly being talked about like he may be a threat to Frankel, but it is speculative if anyone will be if Frankel runs his race.  An interesting side note is that Peslier is coming into ride outsider Native Khan, and he usually doesn't come to England to shop.   Not that I think he will win, seems a cut below the best, but Peslier does too much damage when he ships in to ride a local to ignore completely.  

Footlick 27 Apr 2011 12:26 AM

@ William (posted 4-24): I like Pants on Fire, Dialed in, Soldat, Arch3, Nehro,Tobys corner

I believe its 120$ for a 6 horse Tri box. This is what im doing!

PS Why dont people give BOREL hi credit he has dominated the derby the last 4 years so why say he cant do it again?  1 name for ya  Dennis of Cork ya thats right he got that nag into the money .

---------

Haha, that's great, and true.  Borel has won 3 of the last 4 Ky Derby's...the most prestigious and arguably most difficult race to win in the USA...so I totally agree that he does deserve more credit than he is receivng in this blog.  If Johnny V. or GG or any other big name jock from the East or West Coast did it, ppl would be all over his jock.  Your Dennis of Cork example was funny and at the same time informative...C. Borel is no joke in the Derby!  And he almost beat Castellano's ass on B.C. day...lol

Chaos_King 27 Apr 2011 2:26 AM

I see Pletcher has confirmed what I already knew. No CB on Stay Thirsty. CB's run is over, he will never win another derby and any money on him will be more money in my pocket. One of the best in the business has no confidence in CB, you shouldn't either.

slyder 27 Apr 2011 8:52 AM

yeah, more rain. more flooding. Tornado warnings in Lexington. Rain forecast for derby now, clear on Oaks. so much fun. I bet Baffert just wants to go back to Cali... Louisville is a complete mess.

Billy's Empire 27 Apr 2011 8:58 AM

slyder - what does CB have to do for you to give him credit and not downgrade him on this blog?  CB is clutch.  CB's rides in the Derby have been amazing.  CB has the stones to do things in a 20 horse field that most jockeys will not do.  Give the man his credit.  Unless you're the type that would rather have a Alex Rodriguez rather than a Reggie Jackson up to bat for your team in a clutch spot in a World Series.

2:24 27 Apr 2011 10:47 AM

and slyder,the only thing Pletcher's announcement of Ramon as jockey for Stay Thirsty proves is that they are expecting Uncle Mo to be in the race.  They were likely holding off on the jockey announcement because if Mo was a no go, Johnny V. was going to get the mount.  Instead, it went to Ramon, who has ridden Stay Thirsty in his last two races.  The decision had NOTHING to do with a lack of confidence in Calvin.

2:24 27 Apr 2011 10:55 AM

Such comments about one of the great all time Derby jockey's is childish and unwarranted.  Calvin Borel is soon to be a Hall of Fame jockey show some respect.

Draynay 27 Apr 2011 11:25 AM

2:24, almost like criminal type on haskins saying he did not like mo's work and liked M.I better. If Mo would of worked 6 furlongs, he would of worked in in the exact same time of M.I. But, mo broke off slow in 13 2/5, and then clicked off 12's the rest of the way around the track. Mo passed his 4yo workmate, M.I never did. Mo galloped out legnths ahead of his 4yo workmate, yet M.I never even passed his workmate and was dropping back when the work was over.

Holy Heavens worked in 103 and could not even gallop out past the 3/4 pole. She was done. Toss

Lastly, Calvin is the man at CD. If AC gets in, Calvin will ride.

Could we see the Flying Frenchman double. Kathmanblu, Dialed In? Doubt it, but a lot of folks will bet it...

Billy's Empire 27 Apr 2011 11:55 AM

Billy, everyone in California is upset that The Factor was what I said he was going to be- NO FACTOR in the Derby.  Now they are climbing aboard MI and he doesn't have a prayer nor does he have any foundation to speak of.  He is a complete toss as is every SA Derby winner.

Draynay 27 Apr 2011 12:33 PM

PAULA HIGGINS

Thanks!

Mike Relva 27 Apr 2011 12:57 PM

Looks like Martin Garcia will be another jockey looking for a mount in the Derby, with The Factor out.

Bob Baffert is sticking with Victor Espinoza on Midnight Interlude.

tcc 27 Apr 2011 1:08 PM

Billy : That's what I wanted to hear about his works although I'm not sure 5F will be enough to make him ready for the grueling 10F race coming off of an infection.

Paula : I see your posts about Uncle Mo and I read it everytime.  I don't know if you saw my other post about letting him beat me in the Derby.  I seriously wouldn't mind losing if Uncle Mo turns out to be a special horse.  Having said that, my comments about Uncle Mo are all coming from a betting standpoint.  I just can't bet my money on a horse that has had one prep race, an infection, and 2 workouts to run in the Derby.  I also posted that he doesn't need to run in the Derby to prove that he is the best 3 yr old.  There are other races that can carry him to a championship year.  Preakness, Travers, Whitney, JCGC and the Classic should be enough to make him the best horse for this year.

A lot of people questions Todd P's handling of Uncle Mo and regardless of whether Mike R has a say in it or not doesn't matter.  Mike R is not a trainer, he's an owner who wants to win the Kentucky Derby.  He's not the typical owners out there who buys colts to specifically win the Derby then retire for a quick return on their investment.  I read Steve's article and really believe that this guy cares about the horse than winning the Derby.  I don't know what it is about Todd and the Kentucky Derby, Jason has said it many many times, this guy wins anything and everything but every year, months before the Derby, he's had a few of the best colts but as we get closer to the race, he seems to lose them to injuries or they peak early and doesn't fire in the Derby.

My question about his workout was genuinely a question because I have no idea whether it was good or not since it was in slop.  I did afterwards that Nehro's work, there was an article where they said it was a brilliant work (or something to that effect) and UM's was faster.

If UM wins the Derby, I promise to buy you dinner in his honor :)  I'm not going to bet him though and that's not a reflection on his talent, just can't put my money on him with the way he's going into the race.  Honestly and this is just between you and me, I don't think UM should run in the Derby, it was too quick to run back after an infection and only having 2 works, already the first one at 5F.  I just don't think he'll have the bottom but he could be what you always believed he is, a superhorse.  I'll probably have to sit on your lap on his wagon if he wins the Derby.

JayJay 27 Apr 2011 1:09 PM

I find it puzzling that Calvin Borel doesn't have a Derby mount yet. That's kind of weird, considering the amount of success he's had in recent years. Billy you say that if Anthony's Cross gets in, Borel will ride? I find it ridiculous that he has to wait for another defection. What's going on? Do I smell a bit of snobbery on the part of some trainers? With 3 wins and a 3rd in the last 4 Derbies, Borel is still not good enough for them? Hmmm!

Zookeeper 27 Apr 2011 1:23 PM

I would like to think they would give the mount to Calvin, but who knows. This year is crazy. There are still a few days left for trainers to decide, but if anyone was going to give him a mount, I thought he would go on a Pletcher horse. Now, we wait and see...

Borel has not been on any contenders this year, so it would be unfair to take the jockey off of the mount that got them this far.

Billy's Empire 27 Apr 2011 2:14 PM

There is one rider (A. Garcia) that has been the jockey of these two horses that are listed as Derby starters, (Animal Kingdom and Soldat).

tcc 27 Apr 2011 2:20 PM

Now that The Factor is out:

Schackelford has three 11/8 races under his belt. Nice bottom..

Everyone is saying he is looking good and he has won at Churchill..

If he gets a 47 half watch out..

P.S.

What is with all the signing in now??

Johnny 27 Apr 2011 2:21 PM

2:24,

I'd rather have Kirby Puckett at bat than either one of those in the clutch.

slyder 27 Apr 2011 2:38 PM

calvin on twice the appeal

Billy's Empire 27 Apr 2011 2:43 PM

calvin on twice the appeal

Billy's Empire 27 Apr 2011 2:43 PM

Calvin on Twice the Appeal.  That horse just moved up 5 to 10 lengths.  Smart ownership group.

2:24 27 Apr 2011 3:07 PM

Ky Vet I hope you don't read a racing form like blogs as a professional gambler you may be in trouble if so. I responded to the Dailed In will be 2-1. Yes I know it is obvious answer. Doubt if the fav will be under 4-1 or about 5-1 ala Harlan's Holiday.

I respect Calvin have no problems with him being in HOF and was on to his talents long before.

I remember him being so humble and thankful in the early 90's when they didn't bump him for a big name jock on "Rockamundo" after he won the AR Derby. How many remember his interviews from then????? Boral is not knew to me as some spouting now after he wins 3.

That said, as before, great rider, especially at Churchill, but I still would rather Julian L ride my horse in the Derby or Joel R.. JL because if records don't lie he is the best in KY the last few years, cool as ice and horses somehow run better for him--Joel R is probably the best jock riding at the moment period.

And AGAIN--- that said---- if you didn't bet the last two (Anyone that didn't have Street Sense in their tickets shouldn't be posting pretending to have a clue on the 3rd) "If you did bet MTB" You should not be riding in any car older than 2009.

If you didn't have all 3 of his KY D winners bet in the past get off the pot you Johnny Come Lately's. It's like saying Montana was "the man" in the Super Bowl now--brilliant! One had the teams and knew what to do with it and the other had the horses. Did they play a big part-yes!---could they win without the team or horse-no!

Jockeys don't win races horses do!

Let you fluke guys in on a secret--MTB ran exceptionally well in the Preakness as well and to throw something else in Calvin "My opinion" didn't ride him well in the Belmont losing all sorts of ground and moving early. Every Jock mistakes so I am not knocking him in any way. Mine That Bird ran great in all TC RACES--he wasn't a one time fluke! He might well of given Mike Smith his second if he rode him in the Derby that year or JV his first. He won by open lengths 5 or 6 had he gone wide he still probably would have won--although seeing him skim the rail so tight was awesome.

He's still a great rider---but he can't make a horse that isn't good enough-- a winner. I suspect he will find a mount.

sniper 27 Apr 2011 3:11 PM

I would play Anthony's Cross over Midnight Interlude.  MI had things all his way in the Santa Anita Derby after Anthony's Cross failed to break coming off a 2 month layoff.  Look at Anthony's prior stakes race at 1 1/8th. A-C makes the lead in the Santa Anita Derby it comes up different.  Looks to have a win route at Churchill as well.  Borel aboard...I say this Indian Charlie would make it at least to the 1/8th pole.  

Householder 27 Apr 2011 4:38 PM

Well my question got a quick answer. lol! You were right Billy, Borel has a mount. Now, I have another question: how much is Borel riding Twice the Appeal going to influence the horse's odds in the Derby?

Zookeeper 27 Apr 2011 4:52 PM

Totally agree with Johnny about Shackleford...if people (and a great many are) are downgrading Soldat b/c of his one poor lifetime performance, albeit in his last race in the FLA Derby, why then are people not upgrading Shaclkeford, who, in the words of the track announcer sorry i forget his name the guy who does MTH and GP and is awesome) "ran the race of his lifetime"???  Shackleford has to be upgraded after that race...Dialed in barely got up to beat him and great point Johnny abiut him having run well in three 1 1/8 races.  

Me personally I believe Soldat will return to his classy self and hit the board and for me hopefully win...I love Garcia and I believe he deserves it and he will be the premier jock in the country in years to come.

Chaos_King 27 Apr 2011 6:04 PM

Loved Mr. Repole in his telephone news conference today. Would not confirm or deny direct question concerning Mo having surgery over the winter. I guess that would be none of our business.

longwaytomay 27 Apr 2011 6:22 PM

I'm guessing Twice the Appeal will be 30-1 on the morning line.  He would have been 40 to 1 with another jockey.  He will be bet down to 12 to 1.

2:24 27 Apr 2011 6:47 PM

Zookeeper....I would guess that Twice the Appeal's odds went from something like 65-1 to around 45-1 with Calvin on board.

I agree with sniper on the jockey angles.  I'm giving B Speed a long look primarily because of Rosario, and I always play Julien somehow.

Stones 27 Apr 2011 6:51 PM

SNIPER....CAPTAIN OBVIOUS...I FIGURE YOURE NEW, SO I WILL EXPLAIN WHY A HORSE WILL NOT BE 2 TO 1.....THERE ARE 20 HORSES!!!!!!! EVERYONE KNOWS THE LOWEST ODDS WILL BE HIGHER THAT 2 TO 1!!!! IT'S MORE A NUMBERS THING! 3 TO 1 IN A 20 HORSE FIELD IS ACTUALLY LOW FAV....2ND....YES IV'E HAD 4 OF LAST 5 DERBYS!!!! IV'E WON MORE MONEY IN DERBYS THAN EVERY OTHER RACE...YES I HAD 500$ ON STEET SENSE AT 10 TO 1 IN FUTURE BET...LOVED HIM!!!! STILL CAN'T BELIEVE NO INQUIRY WAS CALLED WHEN HARD SPUN CLIPPED HEELS!  THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SWEAT....90 PERCENT OF THE TIME, JOCKEY NOT IMPORTANT!(THEY ALL ARE ABOUT SAME ON THIS LEVEL) ..BUT STREET SENSE AND MTB WERE GREAT RIDES!!! BET THE HORSE!!!!

KY VET 27 Apr 2011 8:33 PM

KY VET : YOU KEEP CORRECTING PEOPLE LEFT AND RIGHT, QUESTIONING OTHER PEOPLE'S PICK BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN YOU TELL US WHO WILL WIN THE KENTUCKY DERBY.  IF YOU HAVE WON MORE MONEY  ON DERBY'S, CAN YOU PLEASE SHARE TO US WHO'S THE WINNER THIS YEAR THAT WAY I DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT, JUST NEED TO PICK WHO WILL COME IN 2ND, 3RD AND 4TH FOR THE SUPERFECTA, UNLESS OF COURSE YOU KNOW WHO THE 2ND, 3RD AND 4TH FINISHERS ARE TOO.  IF SO, PLEASE SHARE, I'LL PLAY IT STRAIGHT.  thanks!

JayJay 27 Apr 2011 10:28 PM

JUST ANOTHER RACE JAY!! THIS GAME IS LIKE BASEBALL...YOU HIT OVER 300 YOURE AN ALL STAR...IV'E HAD 4 OUT OF LAST 5 DERBYS....2 HOME RUNS,A TRIPLE, DOUBLE, AND A SINGLE.....I EXPECT TO LOSE...THIS GAME ISN'T THIS EASY....BUT I SEE A FASTBALL COMING RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE........UNCLE MO SKYS ABOVE THIS GROUP UNLESS SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH HIM.....IT'S A JOKE!  BUT ON PAPER, I DON'T KNOW HOW HE CAN LOSE THAT WOOD....DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDICAP AN INFECTION....SO I USE LOGIC....THOSE RACES TOOK NOTHING OUT OF HIM...DONE NOTHING TO HURT HIMSELF...UNLESS THAT CUP RACE HURT HIM.....SO...I PICK UNCLE MO BY 4!!  DIALED IN 2ND BEST ON PAPER, DON'T LIKE ALOT OF BAD SIGNS, LIKE LUGGING...THROW OUT EVERY CLOSE TO PACE HORSE EXCEPT MO...MAYBE KEEP MMM....NERHRO WILL DISSAPOINT...ARCH3 NOT SURE OF..ALOT OF BAD SIGNS....TOBYS C I THINK WILL SURPRISE PEOPLE..ESPECIALLY THE BREEDING PEOPLE.....ONLY HORSES THAT CAN WIN OTHER THAN MO....DIALED IN,TOBYS C,MOH,ARCH.SOLDAT,ANIMAL K...IF MO LOSES, ITS PRETTY MUCH WIDE OPEN...LIKE MO!!! LONGSHOT SURPRISE TOBY...

KY VET 28 Apr 2011 12:01 AM

KEY MO/DIALED,TOBY,MMM,MOH,SOLDAT,ANIMAL K,AAA3/SAME AS 2ND PLUS MIDNIGHT I AND BRILLIANT...1X7X9= 63$ TRI   PRETTY WIDE OPEN AFTER MO

KY VET 28 Apr 2011 12:30 AM

KY VET :  THANKS, I'll play your bets but I will have to leave Mo out.  I'm probably the only person in the horse racing betting world that will not have UM on any ticket.  As I said to Paula, nothing against Mo, nothing against his abilities.  I just don't think he will be a factor in the race because of the infection and his prep for the race.  Everytime I start thinking about UM in the Derby, two words jumps at me..ten furlongs.  Other than luck, I just really believe that you need some pretty good conditioning to be effective.  Well, unless all the others are pretenders and UM is the only true horse in the race or he is really the reincarnation of Big Red.

Right now, here's who I like, this will most likely change after the posts are drawn except for DI:

Dialed In with Soldat, AAA, MMM, Nehro, Brilliant Speed, Stay Thirsty, Pants On Fire, Twinspired.

I will single Dialed In on top, regardless of the track condition.  I said before if it rains, I'll put Soldat on top too but I think this is DI's race and if DI doesn't win, all my tickets will be a sad reminder of how stupid I played the Derby this year lol.  I just have a lot of confidence on DI, this is Zito's year and I think there'll be a pretty wicked pace that will set the race up very nicely for him.

I won't wheel all the horses I mentioned behind DI, I will have different combinations and will duplicate my tickets on some horses.  My main goal this year is to play 75% of my money on superfectas, I want to retire by May 5th.

The Rock  :  Here's my play for the Derby Trial :

$1 TRI and .50 Super:

TM/Machen with TM/Machen/Dominus/Beamer with TM/Machen/Dominus/Beamer/JJLT

Machen with TM/Duca/Indiano with TM/Duca/Indiano with TM/Duca/Indiano/BGS

$5 EXB :

Machen/TM

$5 EXA :

Machen with Beamer/Dominus/Duca/Indiano

I'll play HP tomorrow, I'll post my winnings after the races lol.

JayJay 28 Apr 2011 11:34 AM

Twice The Appeal is a toss, I don't care who is riding him. He won't finish in the top 4. Go ahead and bet him down please.

slyder 28 Apr 2011 12:49 PM

twice the appeal may have moved up a few lengths but he won't be there at the finish. cb's run is done.

slyder 28 Apr 2011 2:25 PM

Dialed In has done nothing to make me believe he can hit the board at the Kentucky Derby.  I will not have hin on a single ticket nor will I have Toby's Corner.

Draynay 28 Apr 2011 2:50 PM

Jason:

Thirteen colts have been entered for Saturday’s 203rd running of the Qipco Two Thousand Guineas (Eng-G1) at Newmarket, but nearly all eyes will be on one horse in particular—Frankel.

Regular rider Tom Queally gets the return call on Frankel.

The field may have gotten a bit lighter for Frankel on Thursday when Aidan O’Brien decided against entering Master of Hounds, who probably will be entered in the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (G1) on May 7 at Churchill Downs.

Instead, O’Brien will be saddling Roderic O’Connor at Newmarket on Saturday. By Galileo, Roderic O’Connor will make his three-year-old debut off a successful juvenile campaign that included a victory in the Criterium International (Fr-G1) and a runner-up finish in the Dubai Dewhurst Stakes (Eng-G1).

Other notable entrants include Racing Post Trophy (Eng-G1) winner Casamento, Boylesports.com Vincent O’Brien National Stakes (Ire-G1) winner Pathfork, Group 2 winner Saamidd, multiple Group 3 winner Native Khan, Group 3 winner Rerouted, and multiple stakes winner Dubawi Gold.

tcc 28 Apr 2011 5:45 PM

KyVet oh or do I mean Dray--are you the same?

I totally admit be humbled at times as a gambler quite unlike it seems you or the same.

Didn't have MTB or Super Saver bet Lucky and Musket Man--Street Sense I did have tri more than once but it wasn't anything to get excited about---I had the winner but didn't pound--as for Big Brown I bet him to but very very little--the race was a pass for me with him so short of price---DID cash and when I say cash I think about $12K or a little more on Unbridled--- Nice lick but nowhere close to 12 G's on Smarty Jones. Been wrong plenty. I admit it---but if I was posting???? I love to compete against you 2 or 1

PS Vet as a Newbie---Yes Edward Plunket Taylor knew me by name--Yes Ron Turcotte when walking and after Secretariat came to my house. Yes I saw the Arc in person when Nijinsky got beat by Sassafras. I have only been to the Proud Clarion Derby when he beat Damascus---a "true newbie"---

Vet what starts with an "I" and ends with a "T" and has 3 other letters???? 5 the same as KYVET

As mentioned the guy sitting next to me at the track (he can't yell or boast or show tickets on close calls or I wouldn't be sitting next to him/her)would have no idea if I am up or down large or small.

sniper1 28 Apr 2011 6:45 PM

SNIPER....YOURE ALL OVER THE PLACE.....WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU SAYING?  WOW!  GOOD LUCK ON YOUR DERBY!

KY VET 28 Apr 2011 10:11 PM

Some interesting pedigree statistical info I ran across today for those that are interested in things like Dosage Index and Tomlinson Speed Figs:

Dosage Index- 3 Lowest Figures:

1. Master of Hounds 1.07

2. Twinspired 1.15

3. Animal Kingdom/ Santiva 1.67

Dosage Index- 3 Highest Figures:

1. Nehro 4.33

2. Dialed In 3.62

2. Shackleford 3.62

Tomlinson Distance- 3 Highest Figures:

1. Animal Kingdom 365

2. Master of Hounds 342

3. Santiva/ Brilliant Speed 336

Tomlinson Distance- 3 Lowest Figures

1. Mucho Macho Man 188

2. Decisive Moment 242

3. Twinspired 248

Again, I'm not sure how much stake any of you put into these attempts to measure pedigree statistically. But, for what it's worth, a few things certainly stick out here if these numbers are assumed to have any handicapping value at all:

- Based on these two measures alone, Master of Hounds appears to have the best distance pedigree on paper. This probably is not a surprise. And also obviously does not mean anything about his ability to handle the surface or about his fitness.

- What is a surprise is that Nehro has the highest Dosage Index number in the field, suggesting that his speed pedigree is stronger than his stamina. His performances to date have suggested the exact opposite. Dialed In coming in with the second highest number is also very surprising to me considering the way he has won his races.

- Not only does Mucho Macho Man have the lowest Tomlinson figure, he has the lowest figure by a wide margin. Does this mean he can't get the distance? Probably not, but it certainly bears mention. The highest Tomlinson figure in last year's race belonged to Super Saver.

- Santiva and Animal Kingdom appear to have the next best distance numbers. Again, this says nothing about speed, surface preferences or conditioning, but is interesting nonetheless.

Monarchos Matt 28 Apr 2011 11:09 PM

Animal Kingdom has never raced less than a mile in 4 lifetime starts, winning 2 and placing in 2. He is a huge question mark this year. I am going to watch him and Summer Soiree work in the morning.

Please go watch a replay of the Bourbonette Oaks. Summer Soiree crushed that field, and the 4th place filly, Lilacs and Lace, came back to win the Ashland. Just sayin, Larry Jones could of been training the Oaks exacta before she was sold. I know THS Star Jason likes her too...

Billy's Empire 29 Apr 2011 8:53 AM

Billy: I have a $10 future wager on Summer Soiree at 50-1.

Jason Shandler 29 Apr 2011 9:47 AM

being the wide open race that it is, with such low numbers in most of the preps, if ANIMAL KINGDOM runs he will be my win place bet. he has won near the lead, and he has won coming from far back. he seemed to win the spiral so easy, with plenty left in the tank . i wouldnt be surprised if alan garcia chose ANIMAL KINGDOM over SOLDAT.

nm sol 29 Apr 2011 9:58 AM

Vet you are right I am all over the place--of course you can't remember your comments or read well it seems.... but this is not my way---good luck professional

Sorry I can't resist---who on the Idol Blogs are you touting--- pro

sniper1 29 Apr 2011 10:44 AM

Working tomorrow

Animal Kingdom

Shackleford

Watch me Go(maybe sunday)

Mucho Macho Man

Pants On Fire

Twinspired (trackside)

Kathmanblu

Lilacs and Lace

Summer Soiree (maybe sunday)

Proctor's horse Banned, 5th in the BC Juvenile Turf, then 2nd or third last out at Keeneland, may start in the 3yo turf race on Oaks day, the American Turf, and race against Great Mills, Powhowtan County, Adirondack Summer and some other really classy 3yo turf horses.

Billy's Empire 29 Apr 2011 11:13 AM

They made the right choice for Master Of Hounds. Could have had Borel but without blinking they took Gomez instead. This proves owners/trainers don't believe Borel has any special "magic" at CD and view the last couple of years as "flukes" as far as he is concerned. There were a number of open horses and CB had to settle for Twice The Appeal as his best shot. The rest just didn't want him on.

slyder 29 Apr 2011 5:16 PM

In my very, very best Jimmy Durante now...

Archarcharch Arch

He looks like the real thing for Jinx, John and the "Junkman" (warm heartedly with the utmost respect and good wishes)

Zen's Auntie 29 Apr 2011 11:36 PM

Jason:,

Jayjay;

Just going to see if I can get lucky in the Cliff's Edge, and catch a bigger Superfecta using the 1,5,9. Using those 3 horses in the 1st,2nd,3rd,and 4th positions with all-all-all.

tcc 30 Apr 2011 7:11 PM

Billy,

Thanks for the info and updates.

We leave in the morning for Louisville.  This race is so wide open, I can look at 14 horses and would not be surprised if any of them win.  Trying to narrow down to 4 or 5 horses for boxes is hard.  Post position may alter things and I will be watching, listening and reading these blogs while I'm there but right now my five are:

Archarcharch

Nehro

Uncle Mo

Shackleford

Mucho Macho Man

with Shackleford to win.

Good Luck to everyone.

trackjack 30 Apr 2011 10:26 PM

For the record jayjay.  Having Dialed In on top of any ticket is plain nonsense.  Thinking he has done ANYTHING to make you believe he will circle 19 horses is just plain crazy.  If Dialed In hits the board it's because he jumped the fence and ran into it.

Draynay 01 May 2011 4:38 PM

SLYDER

Yeah that's what it is,a fluke that Calvin won three of the past four Derbys. Question? How many riders go their entire career without winning ONE? Please. Has Gomez ever won? lol

Mike Relva 01 May 2011 6:01 PM

DRAYNAY

Please do what you always do,when you're wrong about Dialed In "not hitting the board",ignore you even said it like you always do.

Mike Relva 01 May 2011 6:03 PM

Draynay : You need to learn more about horse racing before you start talking to me about horses.  Picking a horse because EVERYONE picks him doesn't make you a horse racing expert.  You haven't picked a winner in any of the prep races so save it LOL.  You're a joke, everyone knows it...just keep your picks to yourself and stop cursing the horses.

JayJay 02 May 2011 12:41 PM

Nice even spits of 12 coming from Plum Pretty today (Monday May 2) over the slop. Much better workout.

Householder 02 May 2011 1:57 PM

Mike-

Lots of great jocks don't win the Derby--Gomez (2nd) is just one of them Solis (2nd by head), Johnny V (2nd with 30-1), Hawley (2nd to Seattle Slew), The Mig, Rafael Bejarano and on and on--just off the top of my head coming to mind. Gomez is a great rider.

Mike Manganello and Robby Franklin did---Does that mean they are better? AND Mike M did a Borel exploding up the rail with a longshot. Probably before your time.

Did he or Franklin ever even get another try at it?  

Horse runs the race---NO JOCK can make an overmatched horse win.

That said, if Borel wins this one he will be magic---let him win I just won't have money on him and suggest yours stays in your pocket as he will be less odds than he should be with Borel and the like people thinking with you he is a Derby God.

Would be a hell of a story if he can do it again. If the horse I bet isn't in the hunt let him win another. He will have a cult following if he does.

Note he bumped a rider that got his horse into the Derby C. Santiago-Reyes and that may be the only shot he will ever get the honor of riding in the Derby.

Try this

Horse   70%

Trainer 26%

Jockey   4%

Horse has to have talent or the other 2 are void---trainer is very important because you can make a great horse speed crazy or for the gusto in his 2 yr season or never find the key to making him give his best or cultivate his talent.

I would say there are about 100 good riders in NA that are within 1 length of each other. If given the best horse they will win.

Couple of years ago Steve Elliot won won and Pino was second in another Derby---do you know how many races these two have won  between them? Would these guys have lost on Uncle Mo last year? Who won two Breeders Cup races last year on longer priced horses and doesn't get calls in many stakes races? Hint he rides in KY. Where's his Derby mount?

Heads Up Borel couldn't make Rockamudo or Arctic Boy win --just 2 that come to mind that had no shot entering the gate.

sniper1 02 May 2011 3:41 PM

Nehro might well be picking up that label as the “buzz” horse for the 137th Kentucky Derby, and trainer Steve Asmussen isn’t all that happy about it.

“I don’t want any ‘Mushes’ on the bandwagon,” Asmussen said slyly. “I don’t want them bringing any of their bad luck around.”

He's talking about you draynay, get off the Nehro bandwagon!!

draynot 02 May 2011 3:45 PM

Draynay : THANK YOU for posting that you will NOT have Dialed In in any of your tickets.  At least he's got a chance.

The Rock : Did you play my picks it the Cliff's Edge ?  Not a bad payout although I thought it  would be more since TM never hit the board.

JayJay 02 May 2011 5:39 PM

JAYJAY

Agreed

Mike Relva 02 May 2011 6:24 PM

Who's going to the Derby?  I'll be in Sec. 321, row k.  Come by and say hello.

2:24 02 May 2011 9:01 PM


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