BloodHorse.com

The Future is Now

163 Comments

Playing money on the Kentucky Derby future book is almost always a waste of money. We don't know enough about each horse yet and so many things can happen between now and May. Experienced players know it's a novelty more than anything, not a wise investment of money.

Knowing all of this, I usually find myself wagering a small amount around this time of year, mostly because it's fun, and if I do wind up with a future book play that progresses nicely in the early part of the year, I have something I can talk about and maybe, just maybe, can get a rush on Derby day. In reality, that's all I'm really looking for. I look at it as a donation to Vegas, because after all, the casinos really do need our charity.

Most years I find myself in Vegas around this time of year, so at the end of my trip I'll usually spread $100 around on about a half-dozen high-priced horses. Since I didn't make it out this year, I'll either give some money to a friend that is going or won't play at all.

For the sake of this blog, I'll pretend that I am playing. To make it fun, play along with me. We each have $100 to spend. Here's how I would waste it, I mean, spend it. The latest odds from Dec. 9 at Hilton are here. Here are others from Wynn from Dec 2. If you like a horse that isn't listed, they usually give it to you at about 150-1.

$25 on Sabercat (50-1)--I usually get suckered into playing the Delta Jackpot winner because he has already accumulated enough earnings to "make it to the gate." In reality, Z Humor is the only Jackpot winner to have even started in the Derby, finishing a thrilling 14th in 2008. Nevertheless, Sabercat made me some nice money in the Jackpot when scoring at 8-1, so I can afford to show a little support for him. He is by Bluegrass Cat and out of a Forty Niner mare, and trained by Asmussen. I could do worse.

$25 on Timely Tally (60-1)--I wrote about him in my last blog. He was third in the Kentucky Jockey Club after closing wide and making a strong stretch move. By Mr. Greeley, out of an A.P. Indy mare. I'll take Ian Wilkes' word and wager that this colt will keep improving. Maybe he'll even make it to the gate and I'll get Calvin on him.

$10 on A Boy Named Em (150-1)--I always play at least one Point Given 3-year-old and he's the one this year. Ironically, he's also out of an A.P. Indy mare. The gelding broke his maiden in his debut at Churchill Nov. 20, coming from the clouds, splitting horses in deep stretch, and somehow getting up when it looked like there was no way he would. Pretty impressive performance in a six-furlong race on the slop. Trained by Eddie Kenneally.

$10 on My Miss Aurelia (125-1)--She looked to me like the best juvenile at Churchill last month--male or female. Most likely she wind up in the Oaks, but you never know. Good price for a juvenile champion.

$10 on Sky Kingdom (150-1)--I need to have at least one Baffert horse on my list. This one is by Empire Maker, out of a Kingmambo mare. He broke his maiden in his third try last month at Hollywood, and seemed to relish two turns. He'll be in the CashCall Futurity this weekend, so I'm getting him now in case he wins.

$10 on Valediction (150-1): Another Asmussen trainee. I saw this one live in his debut at Keeneland; wired the field in a six-furlong Poly race. By Vindication, out of a Gulch mare. A homebred of Padua Stables, who breeds some nice horses.

$10 on Overdriven (100-1) Should be making his debut at Gulfstream in February after getting a few months rest. Sanford winner is unbeaten in two starts this year. Probably more of a miler type, but why not take a shot? Repole will need an excuse to take his crew to Louisville in May so he'll do everything in his power to get him there.

Happy hunting!

163 Comments:

It would be interesting to find the odds on Ancient Rome and Swag Daddy...both very interesting colts.  AR had an intimidating eye in the Spectacular Bid Stakes, and SD seemed to fly to the finish line ala Silky Sullivan at Aqueduct.

Slew 13 Dec 2011 4:01 PM

Though picking a Derby winner this early on is ludicrous, my current pick is Liaison.

Stevebiscuit 13 Dec 2011 5:12 PM

Good Luck I like your 1st 3 and your strategy for all the others using the same trainer or a Baffert trainee, or Overdriven I bet on his last on turf at the Spa is that the same one?BTW would like to see an Ap Indy in either side of the breeding to start to dispel the myth(is that the right word your a writer)on the blog by those that play by the theory of what are you capable of vs what have you done on the track and your connections.Breeding vs racing and management a quizentential reoccurring arguement on your blog and Haskin's.

NASCAR PRO 13 Dec 2011 5:13 PM

Talk about burning money?  Its Union Rags or give it to charity.

Ranagulzion 13 Dec 2011 6:22 PM

Like your topic, Jason, and also Sabercat.  But if I must be picky, he is by Bluegrass Cat.

derblin 13 Dec 2011 7:50 PM

Jason:

I made up my mind about the 2012 Kentucky Derby a month ago.

To me, it is all about whether Creative Cause stays sound. My money will be on him in Pool 1.

He is good for at least $50.

By the way, I am back blogging because Chelsea is back on track.

JerseyBoy 13 Dec 2011 7:57 PM

Thanks for the correction Derblin. I was looking at different horse when I wrote that.

Jason Shandler 13 Dec 2011 7:58 PM

I like the Steve Asmussen angle on your picks (3) -- I think that he is due.

skyfire 13 Dec 2011 8:20 PM

Since you're blowing your money -- and I usually make a couple of these bets each year in Vegas for fun-- you have to blow it BIG.

Kitten's Kid 250/1 between Kitten's Joy and Lemon Drop Kid, this one will get the distance. Has won and placed.

Seeker 175/1 By Hard Spun, has placed in a stakes. And he's a March foal.

Passing Game 300/1 2 starts 2 wins -- and 300/1

Black Rhino 250/1 Just like the thought of a horse named Black Rhino winning the Derby.

Tiznowbaby 13 Dec 2011 8:45 PM

Skyfire

Although I think Valediction could be interesting, difficult for me to cheer any horse in Asmussen's barn.

Mike Relva 13 Dec 2011 9:15 PM

Going with Gemologist

Kevin 13 Dec 2011 9:54 PM

here is how I would spend my 100

10 Algorithms(150-1) his maiden in June was strong

10 on Casual Trick(125-1) like his breeding with Zito and LaPenta

10 Sky Kingdom(150-1) I totally agree with on this horse. Saw his maiden win and was impressed

20 Hierro(50-1) Steve has this horse working well at Santa Anita and his churchill win was top notch

20 Motor City (75-1) he was great in Iriquios. Borel on top is not bad

10 Overdriven(100-1) I think he will impress at Gulfstream

20 My Miss Aurelia(125-1) She is just a winner and I feel she might be the filly to do it in 2012.

Thats what I would do with my c note

RJPPDP 13 Dec 2011 11:49 PM

Ranagulzion,

Union Rags was the runner up in the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile. He therefore has no chance of winning the derby. Why? History! No runner up in the BCJ has ever won the derby. I could be wrong but I doubt it. I would focus on homebreds as they have won 6 the last 8 Derbies. Grade one wining broodmares are overdue to produce a Derby winner. Creative Cause, Out Of Bounds, Take Charge Indy and Fort Loudon could be good future bets.

Coldfacts 14 Dec 2011 12:13 AM

Creative Cause has too many derby negatives to overcome. (a) His sire Giant’s Causeway bred 190 mares in 2008. Stallions that are so abused are very unlikely to produce a derby winner. (b) Storm Cat sons have poor derby records. None of the over 100 have ever sired a Derby winner. It is unlikely one of his abused sons’ will break through.(c) Grade one winning mares have a strained relationship with the derby. Only one or possibly two have been associated with a derby winner in the last 43 years. His profile as a derby winner is not encouraging

Coldfacts 14 Dec 2011 12:36 AM

If I bet the future pool for the Derby, I bet the last pool. Then, hopefully, my favorite will remain uninjured.

I came out even money with the pool because I bet several horses.

Even so, I think of the Derby Future Pool and I think of what happened with Quality Road; he never got to run in any of the triple crown races due to quarter crack injuries. And he was a monster in the Florida Derby that year.

I'm really looking out for Discrete Dancer to lengthen out. Although he has Storm Cat on his sire's side, his dam, West Side Dancer, is a daughter of Gone West. Storm Cat should be less of an influence than Gone West, as he is a second generation descendent of the Cat.

TerriZ 14 Dec 2011 2:02 AM

Margano

dianemhanson 14 Dec 2011 5:23 AM

Margano decisively

dianemhanson 14 Dec 2011 5:24 AM

Why/how is it ironic that A Boy Named Em is out of an A.P. Indy mare? I'm missing something.

SouthernChris 14 Dec 2011 9:42 AM

LOL over your comment about the casinos needing charity!  Always enjoy your blogs.  What's your opinion on the HBO series "Luck?"

Jacklyn 14 Dec 2011 9:52 AM

Jason - any promising Afleet Alex's out there?

2:24 14 Dec 2011 10:09 AM

$100 on Casual Trick.

Each and every one of the first 15 sires in his pedigree have won or sired a winner at 10 furlongs.

Carl 14 Dec 2011 10:21 AM

Coldfacts,

This is to get you to rethink your use of history.  What did history say about Breeder's Cup juvenile winners winning the Kentucky Derby before 2006 (remember Street Sense)?

It is one thing to say something has never happened and is therefore unlikely to occur (illogical/ fuzzy logic) but quite another thing to say something has never happened because ....(give your reason)... and is therefore unlikely to occur for the stated reason (logical). Tell me what's your hypothesis on the historical observation that, and I quote you: "No runner up in the BCJ has ever won the derby ...Union Rags was the runner up in the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile. He therefore has no chance of winning the derby. Why? History!" You see Coldfacts, history gives us the facts of the past but we have to interpret them and deduce the reason. History of itself is not the reason.

For example I argue, using historical observations, that AP Indy's chances of siring a Derby winner approximates to zero because his progeny invariably are late developers, implying a genetic cause behind their  history of dismal showing in the Derby. I therefore cannot be convinced by your line of reasoning about a BC Juvenile runner-up's chances of winning the Derby. Your argument is fallacious.

Provided that he remains healthy I will assert even at this early stage that you'll be proven wrong once again my friend. Union Rags to win the 2012 Kentucky Derby.

Ranagulzion 14 Dec 2011 11:11 AM

Coldfacts:

I hope everyone buys your theory about Creative Cause. It will help to boost the price.

I will give my reasons for choosing him after Pool 3 closes.

Keep up the good work. I had a great 2011 but I need extra funds for my 2012 European vacation. Thanks for helping the cause.

JerseyBoy 14 Dec 2011 11:34 AM

at this stage in the futures betting, i'll just put my $100 all on hansen to win at 18-1. the picking-based-on best-odds-time has kind of already passed, since now you have to factor in the race to make enough money to get in.

and i'll take hansen, even though bloodhorse is ignoring the fact that he's already at gulfstream and already exercising on the track  =P (funny how being squirrled away in ocala is news for the runner up of the BCJ, but actually training at the track isn't for the winner).

the hansen/rags debate should be settled way before the derby at least--since, if all goes to plan, they will have raced each other 3 times by the first saturday in may.

serious question: any guesses on how, badly biting one's tongue during a race effects a horse's speed? surely it must cause them to slow down a little bit...

papillon 14 Dec 2011 11:46 AM

I would put my money on My Adonis, Motor City, and O'Prado.

Frank J. 14 Dec 2011 1:06 PM

Sorry if this is off topic a bit, but I am really sad to hear of the death of Strike the Gold.  It is just a shame he ended up in Turkey.  If he had such a good stallion career there, how good would he have been if he had stayed here and bred to what would seem to be better mares?  I will always remember him as being my no doubt pick in the 1991 Derby.

derblin 14 Dec 2011 1:29 PM

Has anyone hear watched Fly Lexis Fly? He has already ran at a mile 1/2 and a mile 1/4. Not sure how the competition was that he beat in South America, but he sure looked nice when he rounded the far turn in his last race. Check him out!

b1ue_eyes03 14 Dec 2011 1:31 PM

I agree with Stevebiscuit.  Trying to pick a Derby winner at this point is ludicrous.  Did anyone hear of Animal Kingdom at this time last year?

I have a feeling that there is more to come.  Maybe this is the year that the Derby winner will not have raced at two.  Fusaichi Pegasus came pretty close to that by not having his first race until December.  Grindstone, though he raced twice at two, did not race past July 1 of his two year old year.  Hopefully there is a lot more talent out there.

LAZMANNICK 14 Dec 2011 1:34 PM

Union rags will be another Mo full of excuses when Hansen's done with him in Fla

datflippinrabbit 14 Dec 2011 2:00 PM

It is far to early for me to even consider a betting option for the 2012 KY Derby.

However, I like a couple of 2 year olds that are racing at Gulfstream this week. On thursday, Which Market in race 9 and on friday Consortium in race 3. Bet both horses to win and you might end up with more cash to dump in the future bets.

Forbidden Apple 14 Dec 2011 2:03 PM

Derblin

Yes, sad to hear about Strike the Gold. Wish he remained here.

Mike Relva 14 Dec 2011 2:08 PM

Datflippinrabbit

Guess we'll see. I think he's the real deal

Mike Relva 14 Dec 2011 2:10 PM

I may have just hit the wrong button and the post i was writing disappeared so i will start again.

Been busy for the last 2 days driving in my part time job. Now it is back to horses and horse racing and RAPID REDUX :)  How could anyone not love to watch him? I clicked on the video to watch the race last night not knowing what the outcome was yet. I didn't want to know. So the minute the gates opened and a horse came out of Gate 1 in front, i knew it was him.

Rapid Redux has a way of getting his legs ready to haul like a rocket the minute the gates open. He runs like a newly trained colt that has no idea what awaits him. I was thinking at first that the gray was going to catch him, but soon he tired and Rapid Redux left him.

Wire to wire. Again. But 'folks'

he is something else and i do admire him. Pleasantly Perfect has

no idea that he sired a son who is Pleasantly Perfect. Just because he won't be able to 'go to the breeding barn' does not mean that he should not be recognized for what he has accomplished. He should be a star pupil for all the other geldings to look up to and the trainers and the owners.  

Now mention of Bank Heist being retired to stud. Is he not the most beautiful black stallion after Vindication that you have seen? Related to Midnight Lute, i love all those names. And i really

think it is commendable that the breeder is offering a discount to any connections, with stipulations,to a black mare, if i am reading correctly. I love the blacks also, so that is great.

And as i opened the Bloodhorse.com

site, sadly i read about Strike The Gold. Having had laminitis already i am sure the vet had no

choice and considered his

comfort and well being before euthanizing him. I was glad to know that he was a 'happy horse' until his injury. May he rest in peace for sure.

And before i am able to submit this i read that Mr. Veitch had 5 violations. Now we hear. Five!

When Life at Ten refused to run or couldn't and the debacle started on the racetrack, i thought to myself, they will obviously send her for a blood test. Well, now we

know for sure, Veitch did not order a blood test. I imagine that is a good reason or one of them why this has taken so long. So conveniently that got others off the suspect list.

Now i will read your Blog Jason and since i am not a betting person, i will just hopefully attain a little more knowledge in that department by reading the comments.

I did take a peek at your selections. I watched Valediction win/wire that race at Keeneland and made a note alongside his name about who his sire is. Nice you mentioned them both.

Thank you, Jason

Linda in Texas 14 Dec 2011 2:40 PM

Papillon

Welcome to the world of east coast media hype.Their 2yo 'darlings' haven't panned out since the late 70's.I see Overdriven more of a sprinter/miler type while Union Rags should at least be effective up to 9f.

Hansen is 1,000% Alpha-type race horse and will be untouchable @ Talladega.. aka Gulfstream Park.18-1 deserves some of the "coinage" I pocketed after he dusted the BCJ field.Thank you Hansen,as I soak in hot springs with monkeys sipping on 30yo Glenfiddich here in Japan.Best company I've had since.. well,I even have some left to buy my kids' 2 pairs of shoes.Take that Jason! :}

BTW: Jason,I'm surprised you're not touting any grass/synthetic horse(s) this time,what happened?..

I'll also drop a few on Creative Cause and Take Charge Indy,though CC's trainer is not known as a route trainer,IMO.

Carlos in Cali 14 Dec 2011 2:49 PM

Part of the risk of some fun money, such as the amount one might spend at Starbucks in a week or month is that you don't get a refund if the horse doesn't make into the Derby. I'd still like to put something on Jersey Boy's pick, not to draw attention to him and lower the odds, but maybe Coldfacts has some info on grays success in the Derby. CC does go back to the first gray Derby winner, in 1954, Determine --a bit of trivia. Or I bet Laz would know the stats on grays.  Another question, as I've been reading the comments about which sire lines, broodmare sires, etc. have the most  Derby success in recent years, are Margano's Mr.Prospector genes on the "wrong" side of his pedigree? We know his full brother had a nice Derby win. Another one with a famous sibling I'm interested in, even knowing about lightning not striking twice, is Royal Delta's brother, Empire Way. Will he be just like big sis? Won his debut, lost his second start, what if he wins this Saturday? Gotta find somewhere to place these small wagers, as there is no online betting here. Do I send money with an adult child going to Vegas? Is that the only place that takes this wager?

Mary Zinke 14 Dec 2011 2:56 PM

Carlos: The only thing you're sipping is Milwaukee's Best.

Mary: Unfortunately, there is no place to bet online right now. Sportsbook and Bodog will have futures later, but they wont be up for another couple months. You have to find someone in Vegas.

Jason Shandler 14 Dec 2011 3:15 PM

Tiznowbaby- lol about the Black Rhino comment.  I do like Creative Cause, but as many have said, it is early days.

Footlick 14 Dec 2011 3:17 PM

Coldfacts - sure no runner up from the BCJ has won the Derby but plenty of runners up have gone on to have fantastic seasons (Easy Goer, Point Given, and Afleet Alex).  I would submit the latter two would have won the Derby had it not been for ridiculous paces.

2:24 14 Dec 2011 3:50 PM

Linda in Texas!  You're not a betting person?????  What is WRONG with you (aside from that fact that you live in Texas)??????  Do you go to restaurants and not eat food?  Life is one big gamble.  You might as well play along, unless your beating an addiction, in which case I say bet small.  Thanks for giving us Governor Rick Perry.  He is very funny.

Bob from Boston 14 Dec 2011 4:20 PM

Never even sniffed Milwaukee's Best,not even when you served it at your wedding reception and tried to pass-it-off as Bud light Jason,lol.Stay classy.

The impressive filly Applauding is worth some bucks @ 175-1,but I doubt her conservative connections will go that route.

Carlos in Cali 14 Dec 2011 4:39 PM

derblin, HUGE difference between being a leading sire in Turkey and a leading sire in this country.  Aside from Benchmark and Easy Goer (who had to be categorized as something of a disappointment) I don't recall any son of Alydar being anything remotely resembling a successful sire.  Someone help me out if I'm missing a good sire by Alydar.  I'm trying but I've got nothing.  My point being like him or not, had Strike The Gold remained in this country odds are as a son of Alydar he was going to be a bust at stud.

Smoking Baby 14 Dec 2011 5:20 PM

Baffert's big one will be Liason.  Yet another Indian Charlie with distance limitations.  

Householder 14 Dec 2011 8:33 PM

Smoking Baby---Maybe Turkoman? Perhaps as a broodmare sire?

Bob/Ted from Boston/LA---What exactly is your problem? At least some of us seem to know our place of residence.

Karen in Texas 14 Dec 2011 8:54 PM

Can't wait to see how Empire Way does in the CashCall this weekend! Also like the Moss's owned gelding Blingo www.pedigreequery.com/blingo broke his maiden at Hollywood, was on the grass, but really like sire Artie Schiller. Also like Drill and Majestic City, the Dale Romans trainee Cozzetti who broke his maiden by 5... then there's the Real Quiet stakes winner Rousing Sermon. And like Basmati, second in the Delta Jackpot... hard to choose

Other thoughts, good to see Dialed In back on the worktab, hope to see him return sound and to form.

Will be interested to see how Weemissfrankie recovers to race back this fall? hope all goes well for her.

RIP Strike The Gold.

Tiz Herself 14 Dec 2011 9:05 PM

Jason,

 Don't know what his odds are but I would throw another 10 bucks on Sky Kingdom. He has the breeding and the trainer, just hope he stays healthy. Still looking for a Hard Spun baby to follow but none have caught my eye just yet.

longwaytomay 14 Dec 2011 9:15 PM

Oh Jason, i think Carlos in Cali just zinged you. That was a good one Carlos, you are funny.:)

Jason, tell Carlos you had some unclassy friends invited to your wedding and obliged them with their favorite brewski, Milwaukee's Best, but Champagne and Caviar  for the others!

You have to be quick on this blog and if you aren't you are toast.

Me, i am as slow as a slug and enjoy it all.

Thanks Jason you are a good sport.

Linda in Texas 14 Dec 2011 10:13 PM

Well hello there Bob from Boston, i just sent a comment to Jason about Carlos in Cali's funny zinger about Milwaukee's Best Beer.

Then i thought i better read the ones i have not read. And there is yours.

No, i couldn't win a bet if i had a pair of loaded dice.

And I couldn't catch a fish in a stocked trout farm tank in Gunnison, Colorado either.  My dad paid for me to stand at a tank at a trout farm and drop a sinker in and the tank was 3 feet wide and 3 feet deep. The fish scattered.

So no, i don't bet and i will never get up at 4 in the morning to ride in a little boat while the sun comes up to catch a fish or shoot a deer, never. I might say I betcha' or you betcha' but no money is exchanged. I even lost at pinning the tail on the donkey. I used to be shy and it made my cry!

Now as far as Rick Perry is concerned. OMG, and the Cowboys, another OMG, and Bushie another OMG. I think i will change my name to Linda from Trenton or something.

Oh no i won't just remembered Brother Corzine, he is from New Jersey? Better stay away from Jersey too.

The only addiction i have is reading what people say on Jason's and Steve's blogs. Some pretty neat people for sure and the subject of horses isn't too bad either. Just good ol' down home neat folks with great personalities that shine thru the fog, Lost in The Fog, bless him too.

Linda in Texas 14 Dec 2011 10:31 PM

Smoking Baby,

Two other good sons of Alydar were Alysheba who was sent to Saudi Arabia for stud duties before being returned to the US. Turkoman dam sire of Point Given was also pretty good. You are correct Alydar's sons were good on the track but were bad as stallions.  

Coldfacts 14 Dec 2011 11:36 PM

2:24.

Your cold facts are spot on regarding Easy Goer, Point Given, and Afleet Alex. They were all runner-ups in the BCJ that failed to win the Derby. They were all better colts than Union Rags. This does not improve UR chances for Derby success. I made the point jokingly to annoy my pal Ranagulzion. It is not really a major negative. Union Rags is not a 10F horse. He appears to have some issue/s that need sorting out. He has tendency to run out in a number of his races when come under pressure. What is going to be doing when he is tiring in the last furlong of the derby? I guess he will be too tired to swerve. He was defeated by a colt that was short of experience and pedigree. When the well bred colts come to hand he will be in serious trouble.

NB: The Kentucky Derby has been won by a winner of the BCJ and a last place finisher.  Derby Street Sense holds the record for the widest winning margin in the BCJ. Mine That Bird a last place finisher in the BCJ, hold the widest winning margin in the Derby in the last 55 years.  Both colts closed from last but one to win their respective derbies. Amazing!

Coldfacts 15 Dec 2011 12:04 AM

Smoking Baby,

While they weren't by any stretch of the imagination notable, Wheaton and Turkoman were useful stallion sons of Alydar.

Tiznowbaby 15 Dec 2011 12:16 AM

Ranagulzion,

I know my post would get your juices flowing. The negative highlighted is unimportant and you points are valid. Union Rags will not be the winner of the 2012 Derby. He is not a 10F horse. He appears to be an exceptional miler. He will probably get 9F but 10F will be outside his comfort zone. He was defeated by a very inexperience colt running on dirt for the first time. Hansen had more negatives heading into the BJC than UR. He overcame them with honor. He is the better of the two and he will not win the Derby. Consider going out of bounds! His sire had 1:32 speed for a mile and his dam was a Breeder Cup Distaff winner who produced half brother Etched the 6th place finisher in the 2010 Breeder Cup Classic.  NB: The chestnuts from the Storm Cat sire line are very potent.

Coldfacts 15 Dec 2011 12:24 AM

 If I ever purchase a colt by Milwaukee Brew I'm naming him Milwaukee's Best.  Then after he's hugely successful and sent to stud at Tres Chimney's I shall call him "Old Milwaukee".

Smoking Baby 15 Dec 2011 8:35 AM

JS  while I like the strategy you are using for your proposed future bets,I wouldnt bet in to that pool strictly for the win.I can get more value and cover more than half the field with a low capital outlay betting into the Derby futures pool offered by probably all three(I have a new one)AW accounts that I have.The reason is that the exacta pools offer more value in this bet as well as any race in the US,thats just the way it works.Nowadays the Derby winner has probably just broke his maiden or is about to break it.BTW one of your picks Sky Kingdom is going to run in the Cash Call Futurity this Saturday(I know that you know this)just posting it on the site.Baffert has won this race 5 times and if SK wins you know your bet, if already made will be considered a value bet because his odds will drop from 150-1 to lets say the neighborhood of 35-1 to 50-1.Good Luck.

NASCAR PRO 15 Dec 2011 9:01 AM

Jason,

Sad to hear of Strike's passing.  Thanks for the embedded video of his Derby.  Enjoyed Nick Zito's exhuberance with his first Derby win.

Now, I love betting other people's money, so with your pretend $100.00 here goes:

$20 on Secret Circle(100-1)--He's my pick at this point.

$10 on Creative Cause(25-1)--Well bred, looking for longer.

$10 on Gemologist(20-1)--Can't beat the connections.

$10 on Hansen(20-1)--Just in case he's a front running monster.

$10 on O'Prado Again(40-1)--Multi-surface runner and a shot of Templeton Rye.

$10 on Union Rags(20-1)--Especially since Cold Facts says "No can do".

$10 on Motor City(60-1)--Street Sense and Calvin, can't go wrong.

$10 on Valediction(150-1)--Seattle Slew line comes through.

$10 on Sky Kingdom(150-1)--Well bred, watch him in the Cash Call.

On occasion Jason you should offer us all pretend money on a given "big race".  We'd all be on a level playing field with our picks BEFORE the race.  No one would have to resort to uploading a picture of a winning $100 bet on Blame in the 2010 BC Classic.  And with pretend money, even Linda in Texas could stick her toes in the water and give it a try.

trackjack 15 Dec 2011 9:30 AM

Indian Charlie is gone!  (I've already had a really, really, really bad week with humans becoming gone.  Didn't need more.  Sigh.)

mz 15 Dec 2011 10:22 AM

Dullahan

Hansen

Basmati

Aurelia

PomDeTerre 15 Dec 2011 10:58 AM

Tiznowbaby...WHEATON!!!  TURKOMAN!!!  Yes, good catch.  Cant' believe I missed those.

Smoking Baby 15 Dec 2011 11:32 AM

Coldfacts.  I actually did remember Alysheba but you've got to call him a total bust at stud wouldn't you agree?

Smoking Baby 15 Dec 2011 11:34 AM

RIP  Indian Charlie.  Another great one gone.  Makes Uncle Mo even more valuable at stud.

Does anyone think Sunday Silence would have done well here at stud?

Why do they send all of our Derby winners overseas?

derblin 15 Dec 2011 12:03 PM

In race 3 at GP on friday, Consortium is 2-1 while Algorithms is 8-5. Future book has the former at 40-1* and the latter at 100-1? Hmmm... Still like Consortium. Darley might finally have their Derby winner here. Debut was impressive. Great turn of foot.

The Rock 15 Dec 2011 12:31 PM

Well as long as we know we are wasting money(maybe we could get a job with the government), I would put a few of those wasteful dollars on Festive Spirit, consider it a Christmas present..... enjoy!

predict 15 Dec 2011 12:35 PM

It's very simple to pick a Triple Crown winner, simply look for a racehorse who is fearless, is focused on winning, has courage and heart, has stamina and speed, people that love him and whose sire is Afleet Alex

Fran Loszynski 15 Dec 2011 12:38 PM

Other sons of Alydar: Saratoga Six, Criminal Type and Benchmark.  I seem to remember seeing them in pedigrees.  Also, Lure and Gio Ponti has Alydar as broodmare sire.

And everyone knows Alydar was murdered at only 15 and who knows what other good horses he could have sired.  But I will agree that he was better at siring good racers than stallions.

derblin 15 Dec 2011 12:38 PM

Rock: Intersting you mention Consortium. I talked to Kiaran McLaughlin about him last month for a story I did on lasix, and he mentioned that he is very high on him. Ironically, he is not running him on lasix. I actually meant to put him on my list here and forgot!

Jason Shandler 15 Dec 2011 2:47 PM

Linda in Texas,

That post was a work of art. I'm going to see if Jason can come up with a betting voucher for you so you can bet his money as a reward for your writing skills.  What's with you neighbor Karen in Texas?  She's seems like an angry little elf.  I will not be able to pick the Derby winner on May 5, so I'm not going to try now.  On a more serious note, and in answer to your question, Karen in Teeheexas, I've moved around a lot my entire life.  My father thought he was in the military.

Bob from Boston 15 Dec 2011 3:05 PM

Who murdered Alydar?  Did he get shot from a grassy knoll?  Why does Dallas TEXAS have the only grassy knoll in the world?  One shooter or two?

Bob from Boston 15 Dec 2011 3:09 PM

derblin - the murder of Alydar is the blackest of the black eyes of racing.  Get physically ill whenever I think about it.

2:24 15 Dec 2011 3:36 PM

derbin- Hancock tried to keep Sunday Silence here, but couldn't get people interested enough because he was not fashionably bred.  Obviously, I think he he would have been successful anywhere.

Footlick 15 Dec 2011 4:42 PM

I'll take Gold Megillah please for $100.00. Broke Maiden by 18 1/2 at CD November 16th at 1 1/16th Mile. Under the radar. Shhhhh.

Cinco Gold 15 Dec 2011 4:43 PM

Howe Great can he be nobody knows not even the fortune tellers that are regularly quoted in the National Enquirer(used to buy to place ads in the back)He was good enough to ration his speed today in the 9th at Gulfstream,with a great ride by John Velazquez,Trained by Graham Motion,and yes Owned by Team Valor and bred by a sometimes poster on this site Barry Irwin.Interesting breeding ex pat Sunday Silence now in Japan and the dam from South Africa Ginger Sea can it happen again?

NASCAR PRO 15 Dec 2011 5:45 PM

I'm laying all $100 on Dullahan.  Don't want any piece of a horse that has peaked as a two year old.  Derby winners usually are non factors at 2.  Dullahan means "without a head" and is an Irish legend.  That's pretty cool in itself.  

JP 15 Dec 2011 5:51 PM

Coldfacts,

You need to take a good look at the Pedigree of Union Rags. I don't know whats the basis of your conclusion that he's just a miler but I'll tell you this: he can be any kind of horse. His pedigree is loaded with European classic blood as well as top class speed. Most of all, he acts like a colt that wants to go long. I know that you're in your element trying to beat the winterbook favourite ...good luck to you my friend. It will be a Northern Dancer in 2012.  

Ranagulzion 15 Dec 2011 6:05 PM

Bob From Boston

How's the weather, minus ten?

Now I understand, kinda like you think your clever.

Mike Relva 15 Dec 2011 7:05 PM

RIP Indian Charlie

Tiz Herself 15 Dec 2011 9:12 PM

Speaking of Dullahan, where has Draynay been?

Bob from Boston 15 Dec 2011 9:44 PM

Mike,

I know almost everybody hates you here, but I have given you no thought.

Bob from Boston 15 Dec 2011 10:18 PM

Now I understand, kinda like you think your clever.

Mike Revlon, "kinda" (kynd-duh) is not a word.  You mean "kind of."  Additionally, it's "you're" clever, not "your" clever.  I make many mistakes, but try not to when I am criticizing others.

Bob from Boston 16 Dec 2011 12:14 AM

I already mentioned Consortium in last weeks blog and at the top of this one. This little guy has talent and will be hard to beat today.

Who,

Did you see the super slow fractions that Howe Great set? He went 24,51, and 3/4 in 1:17, yet Rajiv Maragh still hugged the fence and waited and then waited some more. Which Market had plenty of run in him, but Rajiv's clock in his head is always broken.

Forbidden Apple 16 Dec 2011 8:40 AM

Bob From Boston

Must be nice to be the only one on the planet to never make a writing error. Perhaps if I work harder can aspire to approach your brilliant level. Only difference is will attempt to make certain I spell TEXAS correctly. As for the one's that don't like me, that's no consequence.

Mike Relva 16 Dec 2011 2:08 PM

Algorithms won the 3rd race today at Gulfstream. Lets hope he can stretch out with his pedigree.

Also I am excited about the also eligibles for the Derby and Oaks.

RJPPDP 16 Dec 2011 3:12 PM

Mike,

It was Teeheexas (Tee hee... get it?).  I was innocently flirting with my girlfriends from Texas and you come along and insult me.  Leave Bob ALONE!  I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Bob from Boston 16 Dec 2011 3:44 PM

Passing Game goes for 3rd win on Dec 26 at Santa Anita. Cal Breeder's Championship.

$100 on him in Kentucky derby .

william mac neil 16 Dec 2011 4:21 PM

Ya, where is Draynay? Mo's performance in the Classic must have been quite a reality check for him. I'm agreeing with way too many people on here. I need someone to laugh at for being wrong all the time. I guess AAF will have to fill that void.

Stevebiscuit 16 Dec 2011 5:06 PM

Smoking Baby...Alydar's son.. "Alysheba sired eleven stakes winners, of which his best was 1994 Canadian Horse of the Year Alywow.[4] Another offspring of note was multiple stakes winner Desert Waves."

AS to international horse trading, and great stallions at stud in other countries...where would we have been without Nasrullah?  He was an import.  The pendulum does swing both ways.  

Slew 16 Dec 2011 6:27 PM

I wanted to wish everyone a happy holidays. I will be publishing comments during my vacation, which begins Monday, but probably wont have a new blog until late next week. If someone wants to do a guest blog over the next few days please email me.

Jason Shandler 16 Dec 2011 8:43 PM

Forbidden Apple,

Glad you are back blogging!  Missed you.  How is the baby daughter doing?  Has she rattled off any horse names yet?  I believe as you do, that it is way too early to even attempt to predict any triple crown stuff as so much is going to change once the preps kick in.  I cannot believe there is one running named "Consortium."  Perfect name, it represents the fragmented industry.  Next we'll see ones with names like, Association, Alliance, Club,

Summit, Conglomerate, Group, and Round Table and Commissioner!!!!!

Jason,

Have a great vacation and happy holidays to you and yours as well.

Alex'sBigFan 16 Dec 2011 11:04 PM

Mike Relva,

Meant to says thanks for the info on the Simon Bray thing from the other article.  Glad you got to go visit at the KY Horse Park.  Seems like such a cool thing to do.  I was going to mention to you that during the late summer while in Morocco for two weeks I saw donkeys all over the damn place, in carts, pulling wares to sell, everywhere!!!!!  All I kept thinking as we were driving through the cities is that Pletcher (remembered your funny, funny comment awhile back) would be in his glory over here with all this livestock!!!!!  I could hardly get in to blog over there so I am remembering it now.

Alex'sBigFan 16 Dec 2011 11:14 PM

BOB

Thanks for correcting me, thought  Texas might be spelled that way. lol

Mike Relva 17 Dec 2011 12:03 AM

Ranagulzion,

“You need to take a good look at the Pedigree of Union Rags”

My learned friend I have evaluated the pedigree of the brilliant colt. I concur that he does have the pedigree for the Derby distance. However, my conclusion that he will not win the Derby was not based on his pedigree only. To some degree I am guided by historic data. In the case of Union Rags, his profile is not that of a Derby winner.

“Most of all, he acts like a colt that wants to go long”

I assume your conclusion is based on his Champagne Stakes victory. Those one mile races at Belmont have often been won impressively by sprinters and middle distance horses. He had every opportunity to go by Hansen in the BCJ and ran out badly under pressure. That is not the sign of a horse that wants to go longer. This colt is very powerful and uses a lot of energy in his motion. This characteristic is synonymous with sprinters and middle distance horses. Ideal Derby horses have energy efficient motions as oppose to power.

“It will be a Northern Dancer in 2012”

You have more A P Indy sire line horses in your initial list than Northern Dancer. What are the cold facts regarding the Northern Dancer sire line in the Derby. Well, it comes in a distant second to the Raise A Native sire line. The Northern Dancer sire broke through with Derby success in 1986 with Ferdinand a son of the great Nijinsky who just happens to be the sire of Union Rag’s second dam. The sire line struck again seven years later when Sea Hero won the 1993 Derby. Six year later it struck when Charismatic won the 1999 Derby. Nine year would elapse before success came again for the sire line when Mr. UPS (Big Brown) won the 2008 Derby. Careful evaluation of the intervals between Derby successes for the ND sire line reflects that it is not due for success anytime soon as only three years have elapsed since Big Brown’s victory. Now that conclusion should provide you and other a good laugh. The shortest interval between Derby successes for this inconsistent sire line is 6 year. Based on historic data that trend is unlikely to change and if is does it will not be from a Danzig line stallion.

The Storm Cat stallion line is overdue and has signaled its readiness for Derby success with its breakthrough in the 2011 Preakness with the Shack Attack. I have my eyes on a Storm Cat line colt out in CA by the name Out Of Bounds. The Kentucky Klown should enjoy this. Out Of Bounds just happens to be a chestnut. The chestnuts from the Storm Cat sire line have proven to be the most successful on the track. Is it any surprise that the first success in a TC race by a Storm Cat stallion was with a chestnut? (Shackleford) What do the following horses from the Storm Cat sire line have in common: Giant’s Causeway, Cat Thief, Tabasco Cat, Consolidator, Hennessy, High Yield, Lion Heart, Hold That Tiger, Pure Prize.  They are all chestnuts and just happen to be some of the best runners sired by Storm Cat. Could it be the fact that Storm Cat’s dam was sire by the greatest chestnut of them all - Secretariat?

For the records the coat of a horse has nothing to do with its performance. However, a talented chestnut from a Storm Cat stallion always bears watching.

As previously mentioned the Northern Dancer sire line is not due for another derby win as yet. But one never knows.

Do you have any Fusaichi Pegasus colts on your long list? I have neither seen nor heard of any that have performed creditably so far. Reports reflect that Fusaichi Pegasus bred only 100 mares in 2008. This could enhance his chances of siring a really brilliant one. He is normally over bred each year (150 plus mares)  This is horse’s pedigree, conformation and race record is not being matched by the quality of his offspring. Horse like Premier Pegasus was the expectation for the brilliant 2000 Derby winner. Let’s not forget he is from a sire line that is the Greatest Force in Triple Crown history.

Coldfacts 17 Dec 2011 8:32 AM

I am super excited to read about the also eligibles now for the Oaks and the Derby. That is awesome, that will mean good things if there are scratches during the week of and the next horse in line is able to move in.

Saw the replay for Algorithms, the Bernardini colt owned by Starlight. Can't wait to see him come back next year, could be a budding superstar.

It's only a matter of time before Starlight Racing has a Derby winner (not saying that Algorithms is for sure) I have followed many of their horses, starting with Harlan's Holiday who had been my pick the year War Emblem won. Then there was Ashado, Octave, Hilda's Passion, Take the Points, Purge, Monba, Position Limit (anyone know where this one is at?), and Ailalea.

www.pedigreequery.com/algorithms

Tiz Herself 17 Dec 2011 10:06 AM

Slew, thanks for that and yes, I'm aware of Alysheba's stats including the nice filly Alywow who now has a stakes named after her.  Easy Goer sire that nice Phipp's filly (Breeder's Cup winner I believe) also.  Both were disappointments no matter how you look at it.  I love how you said that the pendulum swings both ways.  Nasrullah is a perfect example.  Good post.

Smoking Baby 17 Dec 2011 10:44 AM

 Short list of also's for the Derby.  Got to love it.  Now you're less likely to have a couple of Ramsey Kitten's Joy rich turf horses that don't belong in the Derby keeping horses who do out.

Smoking Baby 17 Dec 2011 10:50 AM

Happy Holidays to you too Jason, and to all the BH bloggers!

Footlick 17 Dec 2011 11:42 AM

Ranagulzion,

I know you and the Todd Pletcher faithfuls will be trying to cash in on Finale in the Diana Beach Stakes. He appears to be the class horse in the field but as you know turf races are run more honestly than dirt races. There is a colt by the name Starforce that has captured my attention. I can just hear your laughter. Why would ah horse by Horse Chestnut out of Queenee’s Star by Outflanker capture anyone’s attention? Good question? This is why he is raced by his breeder. He won his only start that was at 81/2F in almost gate to wire fashion. He is a big strapping grey with a beautiful action.  It’s rarely a debutant win at 81/2F gate to wire and that speaks volume of this colt.  He is from his sire’s last crop before his return to South Africa. Horse Chestnut bred 59 mares in 2008 and was by no means abused. This colt must be a nice exotic horse with Finale and one to watch in 2012.

Coldfacts 17 Dec 2011 1:46 PM

Alex'sBigFan

Thanks for that! Happy Holiday!

Mike Relva 17 Dec 2011 6:32 PM

I'm looking at Blingo or Empire Way for the win.

Mike Relva 17 Dec 2011 6:32 PM

I like you, Mike Relva!!  Happy holidays..Go Tebow!

skyfire 17 Dec 2011 8:11 PM

Let's see if this brings Draynay out of hiding. My boy Liaison is 10 times the horse Uncle Mo ever was! Think that'll get em?

Stevebiscuit 17 Dec 2011 9:40 PM

On the subject of "the future is now", the Hollywood(CashCall) Futurity has been a key signpost to later success, often separating the precocious sprinter types from the true classic horses.  I think we just witnessed such a running.

Like the Starlet, the Futurity was dominated by the horses that ran 1-2 in the local prep, in the Futurity's case that prep was the Real Quiet.  However, unlike the Starlet when Killer Graces turned the tables on Charm the Maker, in the Futurity Liaison was able to once again beat rival Rousing Sermon for gr.1 glory.

Liaison bears watching for a number of reasons.  In the Futurity, like in the Real Quiet, Liaison had the race measured, winning both with more to give.  Even in the gallop out, Rousing Sermon wasn't able to go by Liason.  Liaison was up on a strong pace(for Cushion Track) yet was still able to finish nicely.  By the late Indian Charlie, I can understand if some have questions about 10 furlongs, but the dam is by Victory Gallop, which should definitely help in the stamina department.  In my opinion, 9 furlongs shouldn't be an issue, and I think 10 is possible, although fewer and fewer US bred horses seem able to get it.

Liaison joins a glorious list of Baffert horses to have won the Futurity.  First for Baffert was Real Quiet, who went on to win the Derby and Preakness, lose the Triple Crown by a nose, and then win the Pimlico Special and Hollywood Gold Cup at 4.  Baffert then won the Futurity in 99' with Captain Steve, who after a disasterous Triple Crown, bounced back to win the gr.1 Swaps(over Tiznow), the Kentucky Cup Classic, run 2nd and 3rd to Tiznow in the Goodwood and BC Classic, and then win the Donn and Dubai World Cup at 4.  Baffert repeated in the Futurity in 2000 with Hall of Famer Point Given, the Preakness-Belmont winner and 01' HoY.  Baffert didn't get another Futurity until 08' with Pioneer of the Nile, a horse that used that race as a launching point for a 4 race graded stakes winning streak, also taking the Bob Lewis, San Felipe, and SA Derby before running 2nd in the Kentucky Derby.  Then in 09' Baffert won the Futurity with 2 year old champ Lookin at Lucky, a 5-time gr.1 winner that went on to win the Preakness and Haskell on the way to winning another Eclipse at 3.  

Some may not like  the fact that Jason focuses heavily on Pletcher, Asmussen, and Baffert, but looking at  the history of Baffert's success with Futurity winners, it's hard to argue that Liaison could be with a better trainer.

Looking at the history of Baffert's past Futurity winners suggests that Liaison should be a horse to contend with in the future.  And physically, with good size and athleticism, as well having a good balance of speed and closing kick, Liaison looks prepared to fulfill the promise of this history.

Rousing Sermon ran an awesome race.  True, much like in the Real Quiet, he was not able to get by Liaison in the stretch(and personally I don't think he would have ever gone by Liaison in either race with additional real estate) but all this horse does is keep plugging away, firing bullets every race.  A small horse, perhaps the most unassuming horse in the Futurity field, Rousing Sermon has never run a bad race, proving himself over a variety of surfaces.  Keep in mind that Rousing Sermon had to go about 8-wide in the Futurity, yet was able to motor by some promising closers like Empire Way and Sky Kingdom.

For those who want to dismiss this race because it was on synthetics, remember that Liaison broke his maiden impressively on dirt(Santa Anita) and Rousing Sermon won the Cal Cup Juvenile on dirt(Santa Anita).  Dirt is not an issue for the top 2.

On the negative side, the Futurity seems like an early end on the Triple Crown trail for Drill and Majestic City.  Drill, it appears, is more of a late running synthetic-turf sprinter(maybe they try him around 2 turns on turf), while Majestic City looks to be a sprinter(not surprising given he is bred top and bottom for sprints).

The jury is still out on horses like Sly Kingdom, Empire Way, and Blingo.  Those three appear to want more ground and produced decent late runs in the Futurity, but it remains to be seen if they are brilliant enough to hang with a horse like Liaison that has speed and a kick.

GunBow 17 Dec 2011 10:53 PM

Forgot to post last week that Good Reason (Sa), a son of Favorite Trick, won Quarter Horse racing's most prestigious race, the $750k Champion of Champions in a photo at Los Alamitos.

All Good Reason does is win big races.  I wrote about Good Reason, and the fact he is a son of the thoroughbred champion Favorite Trick, in December of 09' when Good Reason won the Los Alamitos $2million Futurity.  He won that race in a photo.

Last year, at 3, Good Reason won the gr.1 Golden State Derby in another close contest.  In one of the few close races Good Reason did not win, in last year's trials for the Champion of Champions, when he ran 2nd in a photo, Good Reason actually only needed to finish 1st or 2nd to qualify for the Champion of Champions, so the 2nd place finish was exactly what was needed.

This year, Good Reason started the season by winning the Los Al Winter Championship by a half-length over a quality field to qualify for this year's Champion of Champions.  

He then finished 4th and 5th in a string of races for older horses, but he had his best reserved for the biggest race, as is his history.

In his career, Good Reason ran in 8 races decided by a half length or less, and he won 7 of them.  The only defeat was the aforementioned trial race in which he only needed to finish 2nd.  Good Reason was especially clutch in the biggest finals, like for the Los Al 2 million Futurity at 2, the Golden State Derby at 3, the Los Al Winter Championship, and the Champion of Champions at 4, all of which he won by a half length or less.  For his career, Good Reason made around $1.5 million, placing him among the elites of quarter horse racing.

GunBow 17 Dec 2011 11:11 PM

Coldfacts,

I think that we may getting a bit ahead of ourselves on the Kentucky Derby trail this early. I will reserve further comments on classic attributes of Union Rags for next year.

Chances are, according to history, that we've already seen the Derby winner strut his stuff on the track.  It will be a very tall order for any 2YO making his debut so late to become the Derby winner.  I already posted my Derby watch list of 17 colts and one filly, and now feel that I should make room for about three additions, none of which include your heavily touted Out of Bounds.  How about Finale, Lucky Chappy and Liason?   The latter looks ready to dispel the myth that Indian Chalie offspring can't get a distance of ground.

I do find your observation about the Storm Cat chesnuts fascinating as I myself like to trace the colour of horses on the pedigree table, especially grey/roan ones looking for "genetic routes" (not roots).  For example I was examining the pedigree of undefeated 2YO colt Exfactor, noticing that his gray/roan colour likely came through Spectacular Bid and wondering what else could be flowing along that genetic passage from the "Bid" himself. This colt is not super impressive but worth following because of his pedigree and his obvious propensity and determination to win races (signs of a champion's heart). The Danzig branch of Northern Dancer is well known for throwing classy individuals therefore pedigree connoisseurs should pay attention.

Regarding your mention of trainer Todd Pletcher, he seems loaded with some very good 2YOs and will be a force to reckon with in the 2012 Derby preps as usual. He has a well establised record of success in the prep races therefore astute punters know that they stand to profit from following his charges in those Triple Crown preps (ignore those silly detractors and agree with the "VET" on this score for a change). Even Carlos in Cali will tell you to follow Pletcher's charges closely on the Derby trail ...if indeed he remembers anything about handicapping 101 (LOL).

Please 'hold your horses' and refrain from further provocative comments about the imposing grandson of the derby-winner-producing influence,Dixieland Band. I will comment no further on that colt until after the eclipse awards are decided. Merry Christmas.    

Ranagulzion 17 Dec 2011 11:23 PM

Take Charge Indy.  

Mike from Michigan 18 Dec 2011 6:20 AM

Jason and family - hope your holidays are merry and especially safe ones if you are traveling.

And you all know i was choked up when Liaison won his race. Happy and sad feelings melded into a nice win filled with hope for his future.

Mike from Michigan - Indian Charlie has already taken charge and performed his first blessing on his off spring from the great green paddock in the wild blue yonder.

Barely gone 3 days,Indian Charlie

will not be forgotten. Rest Peacefully good fella. And thank

you for your contributions to the world of racing.

To those taunting Draynay, i do remember right after the BC Classic that Draynay posted "see you next year." Someplace. I don't know if that meant a year from the exact date of his post, or January 1, 2012. I guess we will just have to be patient for his return.

Merry Christmas to Draynay and the great friends who fill us all with so many thought provoking posts.

And thanks Jason.

Linda

Linda in Texas 18 Dec 2011 12:23 PM

GunBow,

I read your interesting evaluation and summation of Liaison’s Cash Call victory. Although I agree with your assessment I am finding it difficult agree with your conclusion that Liaison will be a major player in the Triple Crown races. The colt’s record does not reflect one of an exception horse equipped to fulfill any history. Listed Below is details of his four starts to date:

DEL- 1 Mile MSW 3rd  1:37.50

SAP- 7F MSW 1st 1:22.61

HOL- 81/2F Real Quiet 1st  1:44.72

HOL- 81/2F Cash Call 1st 1:42.86

The above times suggest he is just a good 2YO. I know it is unwise to use times in evaluations but they are a part of a horse’s race record. While he has won his last three races, those victories can hardly be considered impressive. The colt he defeated in his last two victories came from another zip code to get into striking distance. It is common knowledge that horses that close from that far back are volurable because of the amount of energy they have to exert to close large gaps. In the absence of a strong pace, deep closer are hopeless. Rousing Sermon was a victim of this as opposed to Liaison tenacity. It is my opinion that Liaison’s speed figures do not suggest he is anything special or warrants moving him to the top of the ladder in CA.

While I am aware that most horses do not run to their pedigrees, I find it difficult to dismiss this issue. Liaison’s pedigree is not a major positive in his Derby profile.  You correctly highlighted the obvious question about his capability to effectively get 10F based on late sire Indian Charlie. The stamina limitation from his sire’s side is expected to be supplemented by dam sire and Belmont winner Victory Gallop. I consider this a fair conclusion. However, Victory Gallop has not distinguished himself as a broodmare sire of classic horses.  Liaison is nice colt but I do not regard him as a colt that will figure in the Triple Crown.

Coldfacts 18 Dec 2011 1:00 PM

Ranagulzion - i seem to pick on you in a good way, i never disagree with anything you write.:)

The gray/roan comment regarding Exfactor's colour running from Spectacular Bid and what else might be running thru his bloodlines. "What else runs thru those bloodlines" has always intrigued me about every single one of them. Great post.

Of course there are a myriad of other's whose comments are equally fetching and send me off to research something new. That goes without saying.

Linda in Texas 18 Dec 2011 1:05 PM

GunBow,

I read you evaluation of Out Of Bounds a colt I like a lot. I gather you were impressed with him physically but concluded he belongs in the category of a grinder. I was surprised by that classification as I think the colt is any but a grinder. I respect your evaluation capabilities so I set out to verify your claim. I reviewed the videos of his two races to date to determine if the definition of grinder was justified.

Debut: SA, 61/2F MSW 4th  (1:09.02) He was last for the better part of the race and showed a good turn of foot to close within 4-5L of the winner. It was obvious from that race that OOB is not a sprinter and the burst of speed he displayed heading into the turn is not synonymous with that of a grinder.

2Nd Start: HOL. 7F MSW 1st (1:23.17) He showed improved tactical speed to be 4th in stalking position. When asked he responded to engage the leaders under moderate urging. He won the race easily without his rider getting into him seriously. The commentator specified that his win was deceptive. His rider had trouble pulling him up and as you observer he came back to the winner enclosure full of energy. It appeared he did not run.  OOB give the impression that he is a grinder because he is a big colt with long fluent strides that creates deception of his speed. You were not overly impressed with the race. I gather 1:23.17 for 7F is considered moderate at best. Was the race as average as it appeared:

Out Of Bounds: 7F MSW: 22.85,45.45,1:10.28,1:23.17

So Brilliant: Holy. Prevue : 22.94,46.64,1:10.60,1:22.96

Neither So Brilliant nor Brother Francis the winner and runner up in the Hollywood Preview can be considered grinders. In spite of this, they were running flat for 7F while recording a time of 1:22.96. Out Of Bounds under moderate urging run 1:23.17. I do not agree that OOB is a grinder. Based on what I saw in his maiden victory, he will be a force in the route races in the spring. His sire though unproven in the breeding shed was a phenomenal miler (1:32 speed) His dam has already produced a colt that finished 6th in the Breeder Cup Classic. His dam sire Unbridled Song has sired the winners of 4 Breeders’ Cup races. He sired the ill fated Eight Bells (2n In Kentucky Derby) He was broodmare sire of Bluegrass winner General Quarters and Lanes End winner and Travers Staked runner up Hold Me Back. When this colt pedigree is compare to that of now horse Liaison it shows who has the true potential to feature in the Triple Crown races

Coldfacts 18 Dec 2011 1:05 PM

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and Happy New Year to all of you.

Paula Higgins 18 Dec 2011 4:16 PM

Nice post GunBow.

I like Rousing Sermon a lot and he had to go the long trip yesterday, but you were right on the money with Liaison.  Some think that maybe Rousing Sermon hung and couldn't get by, but to me it looked like Liaison simply had more in the tank.  These two have shown ability on synthetics as well as dirt.  This was essentially a closer’s race, but the encouraging thing is that they, as well as others, closed into moderate fractions.

It’ll be interesting to see how the top six fare from here.  I was also interested in seeing how Handsome Mike would do, especially having that inside post and essentially having to go to the front early.  Maybe a middle post might allow them to rate him off the pace in his next.

LAZMANNICK 18 Dec 2011 4:30 PM

Liaison was the NOW horse out of the Baffert trio in the Cash Call,and the distance suited him.Baffert had his three on the lead Drill,tracking the lead Liaison and mid pack Sky Kingdom.As far as breeding goes I like Empire Maker as a derby sire but I wont play a horse unless he has shown ability on the track and or has a trainer that knows how to get a horse to peak in graded races. Sky Kingdom wasnt going to catch Liaison yesterday.He looks like a heavy horse that will take more workouts and races to get in peak condition.I dont know what has happened to Drill.JS after yesterdays race SK's odds should have dropped,did you actually make the bet and what are the odds NOW?

NASCAR PRO 18 Dec 2011 5:38 PM

Mike,

Be nice to Teddie/Bob from Boston/LA.  The Texas gals (Linda and Karen), mz from Canada and Jean in Chicago (although its been a long time) all enjoy flirting with him.  Anyway, Happy Holidays to all the two legged fans and the four legged  (and 2 legged) runners.

Jean in Chicago 18 Dec 2011 6:43 PM

Hi Jean in Chicago, how in the world have you been??? Have not read a post from you in ages. Hope you are doing well.

Flirting with Teddie/Bob from Boston/LA is better for the ticker then a shot of Four Roses like my dad used to prescribe for the Nuns at The Convent. Always knew what they wanted for Christmas in their stockings. Even Sister Bonafacio who used to tap me on the head with a ruler if i talked too much.

Yes Happy Hanukkah, Feliz Navidad,

and Merry Christmas to you Paula

Higgins and everyone tuning in.

Linda in Texas 18 Dec 2011 7:35 PM

Linda in Texas,

You're a sweetheart.  You can pick on me any day and in any way you like. Merry Christmas.

Its still okay to say Merry Christmas ...right?

Ranagulzion 18 Dec 2011 7:58 PM

Pletcher has another impressive maiden winner today at Gulfstream in the 7th.If you can watch the race check it out.The filly is named Ciao Bella.Pedigree buffs lets read what you have on the

pedigree by Giant's Causeway out of Bella Bellucci,by French Deputy

SACK THE SECRATARY 18 Dec 2011 8:17 PM

    RIGHT -  RANAGULZION  :)

  And i am all for putting the

Merry back in Christmas for sure

     and leaving it there

And not changing any of the others

            either

 JASON YOU BETTER GET PACKING

     DO HAVE A GREAT TIME

Linda in Texas 18 Dec 2011 10:14 PM

Jean in Chicago, what am I chopped liver? I too am a Ted from LA/Bob from Boston groupie. Also love Mike Relva. Clearly, I have divided loyalties. You too have a wonderful holiday season Linda from Texas. Jason, have a nice vacation.

Paula Higgins 18 Dec 2011 10:21 PM

I love Texas, Canada, LA, and sweet home Chicago.  Don't take religious holidays too seriously.  Religion, at it's true core, is what keeps poor people from killing rich people. It is all based on keeping social order.  I've met Jesus, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.  Therefore, I believe in all three.  Jesus Ortiz was the nicest of the three.

Bob from Boston 18 Dec 2011 10:54 PM

Mike R.----I can see how you could have been mislead by Bob/Ted's "flirting" behavior. Who knew?! It sure went right over my head--glad he cleared that up for everyone! Mrs. Bob/Ted must have the patience of Job....

I, too, wish everyone Feliz Navidad y Prospero Ano from deep in the heart of (yes) Texas!

Karen in Texas 18 Dec 2011 11:08 PM

I like Margano at 85-1 for the future book. He's progressed with Barclay Tagg over 3 starts in a steady fashion.  He's not the dominant force that Union Rags is, but he has moved up, nicely, the victim of a large field the first out, tiring in his 2nd start, and then rating well in his third start. Ironically, the Jacksons pulled Margano, Lentenor and Nicanor from Matz, who ended up with Union Rags anyway.  I'd have more faith in Matz if he actually made use of the talent in his barn, rather than trying to avoid Barabaro's ghost. Last year, Lentenor was 4th in the Florida Derby, and probably could have kept on a decent path, especially after beating standouts such as Rule. However, Matz, seemed to shy away from any further logical steps forward. In any case, Margano could surprise in the Spring. I think Tagg's a better trainer and doesn't have the Barbaro overhang.

jbluesbeatle 18 Dec 2011 11:53 PM

Coldfacts:

I want to make it clear that my support of Liaison as a Triple Crown prospect is still guarded, as it is with all 2 year olds.

I've never been a person to fall in love with a 2 year old and predict Triple Crown glory.  I usually only make my Derby picks a few days before the race, given the history of horses like I Want Revenge, Quality Road, Eskandereya, and Uncle Mo being declared from the race in the weeks and days leading up the first Saturday in May.

In reviewing the history of the Baffert winners in the Cash Call, I wanted to point out how successful Baffert has been in getting these horses to continue improving and fulfill their juvenile promise(if not in the Triple Crown then later like Captain Steve).  History is not a perfect predictor, but like I wrote, Liaison couldn't be with a better trainer.

As for Liaison's ability, I have him right there with Creative Cause atop the Cali juvenile standings.  I give Creative Cause the edge because he has proven he can ship and run well at Churchill.  I also think Creative Cause's pedigree is a little stronger, at least in terms of the classics.  

However, Liaison has alot going for him.  He has tactical speed and yet has shown the ability to consistently finish well.  An impressive aspect of his performance yesterday was that he ran the final sixteenth in 6 and 2(Rousing Sermon undoubtedly was sub-6).  Liaison clearly is versatile, breaking his maiden easily sprinting on dirt before scoring in 2 stakes on synthetic.

You are correct that Liaison hasn't yet displayed true "star" ability, and I'm not suggesting that he is ever going to become one.  Right now, he's a solid 2 year old gr.1 winner with a skill set that should make him competitive in the Triple Crown preps.  He will need to improve to have a shot at the big 3 races, but if we assume he does get better with age, I see him having as good a shot as Hansen, Union Rags, or Creative Cause.  In my opinion, Liaison is right up there with the best 2 year olds I've seen this year.

If we look back at Baffert's past Futurity winners, only Point Given and Lookin at Lucky were clearly ahead of Liaison at this point.  Real Quiet came into the 97' Futurity having been beaten a number of times as a 2 year old, and his winning performance in the race was more workmanlike than brilliant.  Captain Steve came into the 99' Futurity having already won 2 gr.2 stakes, but it wasn't like he was running holes in the wind.  Pioneer of the Nile went into the 08' Futurity having not won a stakes of any kind, and his Futurity Beyer was in the 80s(as was Lookin at Lucky's).

One thing I do feel confident about is that Liaison and Rousing Sermon are more viable Triple Crown candidates than were the 1-2 finishers from last year's Futurity, Comma to the Top and JP's Gusto.  While Comma and JP are admirable competitors and did have success this year, both had major stamina issues, with their pedigrees their downfall past 8.5 furlongs.  At worst, I see Liaison as a 9-9.5 furlong horse.

As for Out of Bounds, my main point about his 2-turn debut is that it would be a mistake to take him back and make him a one-run closer when they stretch him out.  Too often, at least in my opinion, horses that break their maidens rallying from off the pace in sprints are asked to run the same way when stretched out.  However, facing slower paces while then having to pack a big kick after already traveling further than they had when breaking their maiden, a number of these horses offer only meek stretch runs.

I'm not saying that Out of Bounds will necessarilly be such a horse, but I do believe the horse has some tactical speed and that this speed should be utilized when routing.  I just don't see him having the brilliance to make up large deficits around 2 turns.

Keep in mind, also, that "grinder" doesn't have to be a negative.  Royal Delta is more of a grinder, a horse that uses solid tactical speed with relentless endurance to run her competition into the ground in the stretch.

As for OoB's time of 1:23, it was very tepid.  And I didn't like that the final eighth was run in only 12 and 4.  Liaison was coming home in 6 and 2 at 8.5 furlongs while OoB went 12 and 4 at just 7 furlongs.  True, OoB's time wasn't far off the time of the Prevue, but I actually wasn't that impressed with the Prevue(even considering Brother Francis ran 3rd in the Cash Call).

As a fan, I'm just hoping all these youngsters remain healthy and fulfill their potential.

GunBow 19 Dec 2011 12:52 AM

Happy Holidays to you and your family Jason and Happy Holidays to everyone on the blog and that includes you, Draynay.  At this time of the year most of us are very forgiving about your cheerleading for Uncle Mo.  It's OK, you can come out of hiding.

I asked Santa for only one thing this year.  Just one thing in my stocking--the Derby winner.

Peace to all!

trackjack 19 Dec 2011 7:06 AM

Ranagulzion,

“Chances are, according to history, we've already seen the Derby winner strut his stuff on the track.”

I could not agree with you more on the above with exception of the gender bias.. Your open ended statement suggests that the Derby winner could be any colt that has debuted in 2011.  Why the gender bias? It could be a filly.

“It will be a very tall order for any 2YO making his debut so late to become the Derby winner.”

Two of the last three derby winners did not win a 3YO Derby prep or a race subsequent to their Derby victory. The last Derby winner started on Turf & Synthetic tracks before his Derby victory. The tall order to which you refer would be applicable to a horse race. The Kentucky Derby based on its history is an event in which horses participate. The winner of this event is not required to adheare to any specific historic requirements.

“I should make room for about three additions, none of which include your heavily touted Out of Bounds.  How about Finale, Lucky Chappy and Liason?”

Nice additions. Two turf and one dirt/synthetic campaigners; if Lucky Chappy can effectively transition to dirt he should be the best of the three. Regarding Out of Bounds he has the credentials to be very good. I am not surprised that you have chosen to dismiss this exceptionally well bred colt. He is physically imposing; has exceptional pedigree; fluent stride and has shown a lot of promise in his two starts to date. At your convenience revisit the video of his maiden victory. Focus on the gallop out and take a good look  at what you have dismissed, Then add exception ability to the imposing physique  and you might get the reason for my interest in the colt. He has not yet been given an opportunity to show his true worth as he wants longer than 61/2F & 7F to display his stuff.  

“The latter looks ready to dispel the myth that Indian Charlie offspring can't get a distance of ground.”

Liaison has bigger challenges than a distance of ground. In his last two victories he defeated a colt that came from another zip code. Those that were either in the pace or setting the pace failed to go on. Do you see the likes of Union Rags, Creative Cause, Hansen and other spotting Liaison 10L in any race? Liaison is a good colt but nothing exceptional.

“Mr. Pletcher has a well established record of success in the prep races therefore astute punters know that they stand to profit from following his charges in those Triple Crown preps”

Be careful that you are not classified as one blinded by your refusal to see. In 2011 the revered Mr. Pletcher won the Sam Davis, Gotham and Illinois Derby.  By his high standards it was a miserable 2011 for Derby preps. In 2010 his record was better; he won the Sam Davis, Risen Star, LA Derby, FOY and Wood Memorial.  A three and five record over the last two years is not overpowering. Good/exceptional 2YO always look awesome again weaker opposition. Contrary to the belief of the Pletcher faithfuls, he cannot work magic. Ask Uncle Mo.

“Please 'hold your horses' and refrain from further provocative comments about the imposing grandson of the derby-winner-producing influence, Dixieland Band.”

Well written! I will gladly accede to your request. Dixieland Band’s influence is as a dam sire. I suggest you get yourself a gift package that includes a lot of towels as you will be shedding a lot of tears in 2012. A Merry Christmas to you as well sir.

Coldfacts 19 Dec 2011 7:22 AM

Sorry! Verb should have been "misled" in my 12/18 post.

Karen in Texas 19 Dec 2011 10:16 AM

The way Storm Front played with the competition in the Dania Beach makes him an interesting prospect for the dirt next year. I don't see him listed on the future's list but I think he will be soon added. Racing so far only on the turf does not mean he cannot run on dirt. The main reason he has been on the turf is they didn't feel he was ready strength wise to race on the dirt. This should be interesting to watch what they do next with him, but if he likes the dirt when they try it, he could be an intersting Triple Crown prospect. What's he gong to do when he gets stronger? He could the real deal.

predict 19 Dec 2011 11:50 AM

Hey Who do you have a particular horse that you are following at this time for the Derby and the Triple Crown?I know how well you do on the TC races especially the Derby so if you dont mind.

SACK THE SECRATARY 19 Dec 2011 12:03 PM

Tiz(now) the week before Christmas and all through the (Free)House, all the creatures are stirring:

Coldfacts: Northern Dancer is an "inconsistent" sire line for the Derby?  There are more Derbies than are dreamt of in your philosophy< Horatio ... especially the GrandDaddy of them all in Epsom.  Ack! (I repeat: Ack Ack ... and didn't he start his HOY year about this time in California?)

Ranagulzion and Linda in Texas: Spectacular Bid owes his coat colour through Promised Land to Mahmoud to Mah Mahal to The Tetrarch, whose sire got a chance at stud in GB only because his owner wanted to try to "save" grey in TB's.  And look what breeding for colour got him: only the horse voted the 2YO of the 20th Century!  Whenever I see pictures of The Tetrarch, I have to smile -- he sure didn't look like anything that would be doing anything but playing in the circus.  Goes to show, ya never know.

Ted/Bob: don't you worry your pretty little head.  The Harem will always be with you.  (Although, didn't some of the best assasins come out of the harems during the sultanates?)

Anyways, to all a good night/health/peace/continued ability to blog whatever you want and damn the torpedoes! full speed ahead!  (Now, I am mixing my metaphors ... soon, I will be mixing anything-but-martini's.  Never again martini's.  It's a long and terrible story.)

Merry Christmas.  Buon Natale.  Be safe.  Pick winners (even if they do come from the Northern Dancer sire line)

mz 19 Dec 2011 12:15 PM

Paula,

You are nobody's chopped liver!  I'm sorry I left you out of Teddie/Bob's flirting list.  My only excuse is that  Victoria the cat decided it was time to try to lie down on my keyboard and I had to finish up quickly.

On a more horsey note, I'm afraid to say how much I like Hansen out of fear that its a long, long time until May and speaking from experience way too many things can happen.  Anybody want to bet that he'll be solid white by the time he's five?

Jean in Chicago 19 Dec 2011 2:48 PM

I wish there was an actual horse named Storm Front, that would make my last post make some sense... I was, of course, referring to Summer Front, who I still believe will be tried on the dirt at some point, with the Triple Crown as a target.

predict 19 Dec 2011 3:49 PM

Oh Sweet Jean in Chi Town - no worries, there are a bunch of us who think Hansen is something else.

Carlos in Cali says he is an "Alpha Horse."

Just hoping that he stays sound.

And i will stick my foot in the water as Trackjack suggested i do,

and i will bet you 'something':)

that Hansen will be white by the age of five. Crazy about him.

Thanks MZ for the information that is very interesting. I am going to look The Tetrarch up in my big

book and study his story.

You have to be a pro to drink Martini's, in those pretty stemmed glasses with a tiny white onion or olive in the bottom. They will sneak up on ya' and get you when you least expect it. And Buon Natale to you, i had forgotten the Italian greeting. My son taught Doctorate Students Italian while he was going for a Master's in Music at The U of Iowa. How could i forget?  Love the Italians.

I wonder if Jason is on the bus yet? Just kidding Jason, i know you are probably jetting someplace and probably already there.

            Ciao

Linda in Texas 19 Dec 2011 5:23 PM

Is it just me or has mz, Paula and Jean all lost weight?

Bob from Boston 19 Dec 2011 5:39 PM

Consortium hangs on strongly through very rapid fractions to finish second Gulfstream to another Bernardini colt; gotta like a 2yo from anywhere that's never ran on lasix...Zenyatta's faithful should follow this horse closely (along with Elbouissante, of course), since Consortium comes from the same Bernardini/Machiavellian cross as Zen, Jr. What are the Vegas odds Ebluoissante comes on fast enough next year to make the Oaks? (And who will die if she finishes a fast-closing second to be beaten by, say, a head or so? :P) ...And while I'm on the pedigree side, is it just me or does there seem to be an unusually high number of "purple-bred" 2yos looming as big prospects for 2012?

Age of Reason 19 Dec 2011 6:41 PM

Liason payed $12.00.  I knew he would be Baffert's big gun.

People it is December.  Animal Kingdom was still running AlwOC last March!

As the new year rolled around Ferdinand, Sunday Silence, and Winning Colors were harldy house hold names let alone more recent winners like Mine that Bird.  

This is the biggest sucker bet of the season.  The bet should be which 20 on the list will even make it in the starting gate?  

What did you eat 4-1 on A.P Indy, and 3-1 on Easy Goer?  

Naw I would rather go with 30-1 on the field.  

Householder 19 Dec 2011 7:03 PM

PAULA/ KAREN

Thanks! Billy's Empire would be jealous. lmao

Mike Relva 19 Dec 2011 7:12 PM

Speaking of Liason's dam sire Victory Gallop has there been any word on Jaycito?  Was he retired after his Aug AlwOC at Del Mar?  

Wasn't Victory Gallop standing in Chile or Turkey?  

Householder 19 Dec 2011 7:19 PM

Does anyone know if we are in the "wean off Lasix" period yet?  Are the winter preps going to be run on Lasix or off it?  I wonder how many of these two year olds are going to be "bleeders?"  And by the time these 2 yr. olds reach the BCC isn't it supposed to be Lasix free in 2012?  The "wean off Lasix" period could impact the Derby preps if some are one it and some are being weaned off and the playing field is uneven?  Any thoughts?

Alex'sBigFan 19 Dec 2011 8:03 PM

Wats up Imo no it is too early.I monitor Gulfstream on a daily basis right now especially since the meet has just started, and I post interesting maiden winners or 2yos that win and because of their connections and anything else that might grab my attention.The way horseracing is at the moment in the US is in a state of Flux because of the steriods that were banned and the regulatory bodies(if there are any nationaly)wanting stricter controls on many substances that are being used in one jurisdiction but not another.I think these factors have all contributed to breeding in the US and not by coinsidence the notion that horses of today are running slower(because of their speed figures)The 2yos and on Jan 1 3yos are running a lot less races leading up to the Derby so it is very possible that the winner of the 2012 Kentucky Derby has just broke its maiden this month or last month.

NASCAR PRO 19 Dec 2011 8:31 PM

Householder,

Jaycito worked 5f in 59.60 at Hollywood on the 11th

Tiznowbaby 19 Dec 2011 8:39 PM

These future bets are for bettors that use them as a hedge for their real wagers on the day of the race.The race is too far out for any outsider to bet into these pools. As far as picking the derby winner by his breeding if you are that good of a breeding expert your not making good use of your time posting opinions on this blog,you should at least be a bloodstock agent, or very involved in the breeding business.

ZORRO 19 Dec 2011 8:49 PM

All is forgiven Jean fron Chicago. I also have 2 cats and I know what that means. We live in their house. Bob from Boston, this is why we love you. When I tell my husband I think I've lost weight, he says "I think I've found it." Mike Relva, Billy's Empire should be jealous! About Lasix. I was on the fence, leaning towards banning it. I am not so sure that is such a good idea now. In fact, I think it isn't.

Paula Higgins 19 Dec 2011 10:09 PM

KINGKAPPER,

The arrogance of your post is surpassed only by its crassitude.

Your stated rationale for the future bets makes absolutely no sense from an investment point of view. Wise investors/risk takers do not hedge risky investment with riskier instruments. These fiture pools are undeniably riskier than raceday wagers and do not qualify as hedging instruments, except for a rookie. Therefore prudent horseplayers who do not wish to burn their money might as well place it where their risk is lowest (Union Rags, for instance) or give it to charity ... for heavens sake (my sound advice).

Your perspective on hedge investments doesn't give credibility to your scolding of blog posters about the use of their time or opinions.

Talk about flaunting arrogance to expose ignorance ...Oh boy ...Merry Christmas

Ranagulzion 20 Dec 2011 12:14 PM

And how could you NOT love that Street Sense colt, In The Beat? (just went  back and watched his impressive maiden win again). Exact same connections as Street Sense (Nafzger, Tafel, and Borel); by a Derby winner (Street Sense), out of a mare by a Derby winner (Fuasichi Pegasus); and descends from two different classic-type Mr. Prospector lines (Street Sense from the Machiavellian line; FuPeg, of course, by Mr. P. himself). Watch out for him and the other Street Sense horse, G3 Iroquois winner Motor City, next year for sure!

Age of Reason 20 Dec 2011 6:14 PM

Thanks Tiznowbaby.  Jaycito looks primed with that work.

I saw a quote in the LA Times from Baffert in regards to Liason. Baffert said something to the effect of Liason doesn't have a ton of speed like his dad Indian Charlie did but rather takes after his dam's side and Victory Gallop which I hated.  

Householder 20 Dec 2011 7:30 PM

KINGKAPPER? I HAD 10 TO 1 ON STREET SENSE ....BET 500 ON 8 LENGTH WINNER OF JUV. 10 TO 1? I STILL DONT KNOW HOW THEY GAVE ME THAT.........FIVE GRAND.....NICE HEDGE FUND!

KY VET 21 Dec 2011 12:55 AM

Jacob Bratcher,

Many thanks for bringing In The Beat to our attention. I did some research on the colt or more appropriate the pony since that is the physical statue he projects. He is rather small and I am hoping he is a May foal as he appears smaller than 2009 Derby winner Mine That Bird who was also a May foal. Why be concerned about the size horses when this factor does not determine the size of their hearts display on the track. He won a 6F race in 1:09.85 closing from last but one. Judging from his pedigree he should be a dead and consequently I was not surprised to see him closing from that far back.  While his closing kick did not surprise, the time of the race did. His pedigree does not suggest he would be effective at this distance against good sprinters. It therefore means he is a classy sort.

On the subject of his pedigree, it’s a rarity to see the dam line of a horse reflect such quality champions:

Dam sire:  Fusaichi Pegasus - Derby winner and Preakness runner up

2ns Dam sire: Seattle Slew - Triple Crown winner, HOY

3rd Dam sire: Northern Dancer - Derby, Preakness winner and Belmont runner up; CAN HOY; Leading broodmare sire, 1991

4th Dam sire: Buckpasser: Need no introduction - HOY, Leading Broodmare Sire (1983, 1984, 1988, 1989)

While the majority of horses do no run to their pedigrees this colt has shown 1:09.85 speed for 6F and he is suppose to be a router. He therefore has definitely inherited from the gene pool cited above. His third dam sire Northern Dancer was a small horse. Could his size be linked to ND? If this is the case let’s hope he has the ability to run 10F in 2:00 flat like ND did in his 1964 Derby victory. He does have some historic negatives. A Derby winner sired by a Derby winner and whose dam was sired by a Derby winner is literally unheard of. I have not charted the entire history of the Kentucky Derby but if this pedigree profile has won it is probably an isolated case. The last derby winner to be sire a derby winner was Unbridled (1996) a grandson of Mr. Prospector. Street Sense is a grandson of Mr. P. The last derby winner that was broodmare sire of a Derby winner was Triple Crown winner Count Fleet (1965). Two sons of MR. Prospector have been derby winning broodmare sires i.e., Carson City (Barbaro) Smart Strike (Mine That Bird). It has been 15 years since the last KD winner was sired by a Derby winner. It has been 46 years since a Derby winner has be broodmare sire of a derby winner. Based on both spans the recurrence is due and also overdue.

Street Sense was trained by an old school trainer; consequently it is safe to assume he was not subjected to the high powered race day cocktails use by the some of the prominent eclipse award winning high profile trainers. This stallion therefore cannot be considered damaged good and should be capable of breaking the Derby wining sires’ jinks.  Fusaichi Pegasus is undoubtedly the most physically imposing son of Mr. Prospector and he had the performance to complement his looks. His success as a stallion to date is moderate at best. Could he join the likes of Carson City and Smart Strike and be a derby winning broodmare sire? Could he be another Secretariat moderate as a sire but excellent as a broodmare sire? You never know!

Interestingly bred little colt who merits watching. If two unraced horses can combine for a derby winner (Determined 1951) I see no reason why a Derby winner and a broodmare sired by a Derby winner cannot combine for same.

Coldfacts 21 Dec 2011 8:57 AM

MZ,

“Coldfacts: Northern Dancer is an "inconsistent" sire line for the Derby? There are more Derbies than are dreamt of in your philosophy< Horatio ... especially the GrandDaddy of them all in Epsom.  Ack! (I repeat: Ack Ack ... and didn't he start his HOY year about this time in California?)”

Pardon me if I failed to understand your post in its totality. My response might not be as informed as it should be as it is based on your opening sentence.

The Northern Dancer sire line and by this I mean Northern Dancer and his sons, grandsons etc., tasted Derby success in 1986 with Ferdinand sired by his son Nijinsky. Between 1986 and 2011, Three of Northern Dancer’s grandsons sired Derby winners i.e., Boundary, Summer Squall and Polish Navy. In the aforementioned 25 year period this sire line produced three Derby winners, an average of one every 8 years.

The Raise A Native sires tested Derby success in 1969 with Majestic Prince sire by Raise A Native. Between 1969 and 2011 the sons, grandsons, great grandsons and great, great grandsons of Raise A Native sired the winners of 16 Derbies. In the aforementioned 42 year period the RAN sire produced a Derby winner, an average of approximately one  every 3 years. If the two dominant sire lines are compared from 1986, the Northern Dancer sire line accounts for 4 Derby winners while the RAN sire Line accounts for 14 winners.

I consider a sire line that has produced four Derby winners in 25 years at an average of one every 8 year, inconsistent. Storm Cat is a grandson of Northern Dancer and he supplied the breeding industry with over 100 stallions. It therefore cannot be concluded that the ND sire line is out numbered.

Coldfacts 21 Dec 2011 11:37 AM

Coldfacts,

Bravo buddy!! Those two posts were excellent. I'll be keeping an eye on In The Beat.  Notwithstanding I think I'm prepared to go down with the Northern Dancer "ship" on the Kentucky Derby trail in 2012.

KY VET,

Your luck with Street Sense offers cold comfort to KINGKAPPER'S ignorance.

Ranagulzion 21 Dec 2011 12:52 PM

Coldfacts: look up the Epsom Derby over the past few decades.  Look up the French Derby (Prix de Jockey Club) over the past few decades.  Look up the Australian Derby equivalents over the past few decades.  That's all I meant.  Not all Derbies are run in Kentucky.

(Argh!)

mz 21 Dec 2011 1:54 PM

In The Beat is 1-x :  La Troienne family. There´s you Derby winner.

Jorge Garcia 21 Dec 2011 4:03 PM

I wonder how many of those RAN sire line winners of the Kentucky Derby were bred to mares of the Northern Dancer sire lines? If I'm not mistaken, that combination has produced some very good colts.

predict 21 Dec 2011 5:11 PM

Predict,

Listed below are the winners of Triple Crown races from RAN sire line crossed with the Northern Dancer broodmare line:

Kentucky Derby

Street Sense

Monarchos

Fusaichi Pegasus

Thunder Gulch

Preakness:

Lookin At Lucky

Curlin

Hansel

Belmont

Drosselmeyer

Summer Bird

Jazil

Birdstone

Empire Maker

Sarava

Victory Gallop

Thunder Gulch

Hansel

The Northern Dancer sire line has been associated with the winners of 16 Triple Crown races. None of these winners were produced from broodmares sired by RAN line stallions. The RAN sire line has been associated with the winners of 47 Triple Crown races.

Union Rags is a cross of the Northern Dancer sire with the RAN broodmare line. His task is to be the first winner of a Triple Crown race produced by this cross that has work so well in the reverse. The chances of this occurring are very remote as the AP Indy sire line is surging.

Coldfacts 22 Dec 2011 9:11 AM

On the subject of future bets I would spent my mythical bank roll of $100 on five betting interest @ $20 each. This is a big sucker bet and consequently traditional selection criteria should be disregarded.

Take Charge Indy - He was produced by a member of the million dollar broodmare club. No million dollar club member has been associated with a Derby winner. His dam was runner up in the Kentucky Oaks. The top three finishers in the history of Kentucky Oaks are MIA on the Derby winner’s chart. He is well bred for the Derby distance and his dam falls into a category that is due to produce a Derby winner.

Alpha - He was produced by a Nijinsky mare and those mares are rarely seen as first dams. Nijinsky sired 1986 Derby winner Ferdinand and a win for Alpha would allow him to join the great Native Dancer who was the last sire and broodmare sire of a Derby winner. Native Dancer sire 1966 Derby winner Kauai King and two years earlier was dam sire of 1964 Derby winner the great Northern Dancer. Alpha is also well bred for the Derby distance. Both Native Dancer and Nijinsky were great horses. Nijinsky carried the Native Dancer blood in his veins via sire Northern Dancer. Nijinsky was so good that it’s a good bet that he can duplicate the achievement of the Grey Ghost.

Out Of Bounds: What an Odd name! What About Unbridled Cat as a name? He was also produced by a member of the million dollar broodmare club. In addition his dam is a Breeder Cup winner. No million dollar club member or Breeders Cup winning mare is associated with a Derby. He is bred for speed and stamina.  Breeders Cup winning mares are due for Derby success.

In The Beat: He was sired by a Derby winner out of a broodmare sired by a Derby winner. Both sire and dam sire are from the RAN line the most powerful force in Triple Crown history. Belmont winner and Breeder Cup Classic 3rd place finisher Ruler On Ice was bred along a similar cross. His sire Roman Ruler is a grandson of Mr. Prospector (RAN) and his dam sire Saratoga Six is son of Alydar (RAN) His pedigree profile has probably never won the Derby. The 10F success at the classic level by both sire and dam sire makes him an appealing prospect.

Unlisted Horses: I doubt a colt produced from a Brazilian stallion out of a German broodmare was amongst the listed betting interest in 2010.  Animal Kingdom emerged to win the 2011 Derby and provided a major lesson in how to wager sucker bets.

Coldfacts 22 Dec 2011 10:04 AM

Coldfacts,

Now that you're flowing with professorial wisdom, please tell us what is the lesson on how to wager sucker bets, from Animal Kingdom's 2011 Derby win.  I may be slow of learning on this one but all I comprehend is that bettors burnt a lot of cash and the bookies laughed all the way to the bank.  Teach me on this one my friend.

Your antagonizer KY VET showed his solidarity with KINGKAPPER's folly by bragging about a futures's cash-in on Street Sense in Derby 2007. With their brand of "hedging" philosophy do you think that he was able to keep his bonanza? (LOL)  

Ranagulzion 22 Dec 2011 5:30 PM

The more I think about this future bet thing the more I want to go to Vegas and actually make a bet, as foolish as it seems to me to bet on a race that is close to impossible to pick at this time. But, I have become,for lack of a better term, Draynayed, with a horse already. Draynayed, to anyone who follows the blogs here, would be to say you are beyond obsessed with a horse, and it's chances to win a race. And I coin this term with nothing but respect for someone who holds his opinion so highly and mean no disrespect whatsoever. The horse that I have convinced myself is the greatest horse since Secretariat is the horse I mentioned earlier, Summer Front. Even though he hasn't run on dirt yet, it is only a matter of time before he does, proving to all that he can. When I watch the way this horse runs and the way he looks I am reminded of the great Riva Ridge. I am fairly certain that he has the heart of that great champion and imagine it was passed on through his broodmare's heart lineage. I guess ultimately one could say this lineage actually descends to the greatest horse of all time, Man O' War. So I am thinking if I can get 300-1 on a future bet on the horse that will win this year's Kentucky Derby I should hop on a plane to Vegas and do it.  Jason, thanks for making me consider a bet I never would have made in the past. Win or lose it has been fun thinking about it.

predict 23 Dec 2011 3:38 AM

Predict,

When Animal Kingdom came home in 39 plus in the Spiral I was convinced he had to business being in the Derby. I was proven wrong. I now have an open mind about the chances of horses that excel on Turf & Synthetic surfaces. I have reviewed all his races and he appears professional. The early fractions in all his races were pretty moderate so it difficult to determine if he will be competitive when having to close in 45 & 46 tractions. Any horses produced from an unraced mare and shows such ability merits following.

Coldfacts 23 Dec 2011 3:26 PM

predict,

Summer Front certainly looks like a very good colt indeed.  Being by War Front he'll have to answer both the dirt and distance questions as memory of Soldat is still very fresh. However his pedigree on the dam side suggests that he'll stay.  I liked the way he disposed of Finale and Excaper with consumate ease and won with a ton in hand. If he takes to dirt he'll be very near the top of my Derby watch list for sure ...being from the Danzig branch of Northern Dancer is a bonus.

Ranagulzion 24 Dec 2011 10:31 AM

Ranagulzion

Subject to correction Animal kingdom was not listed amongst the betting interest in Vegas for the Derby as a 2YO. Therefore a wager on an unlisted horse @150-1 would have landed you with the Derby winner Animal kingdom. Any future wager at this point should include one on unlisted horses. This is the point I was trying to make and evidently did a poor job.

The Kentucky Klown is no antagonist of mine. He merely takes pleasure in attacking me and if that floats his boat more power to him.

I see my horse Riveting Reason is entered in the Sir Beaufort Stake on turf. His dam line is all turf and he works 58.4 recently. His dam race on turf; his sire Known Fact was a Champion 3yo colt in England (turf); 2nd dam sire Dynaformer is a dominant turf sire.  He is going to be a gigantic odds and as usual I will be using him in all potions as if he hit the board the exotics will be quit lucrative

Slew,

You took me to task for citing that Triple Crown winners are poor broodmare sires. Well Centralintelligence run in the 7F Malibu on Monday. His unraced dam was sired by TC winner Seattle Slew. His sole start on dirt was an impressive 31/2L victor of a 6F race in 1:08.19 at SA. He returns to the dirt in the Malibu and I am going to put your dissenting views to the test and make a wager. I am hoping your assessment is better than mine because if not I will be submitting a reimbursement claim.

Coldfacts 24 Dec 2011 10:55 AM

Hey Coldfacts,

I found another Tafel-owned Street Sense colt to watch on the 2012 Derby Trail. His name is Afford. Like In The Beat, Afford's also out of a Derby-winning mare (one of Tafel's homebreds,this time by Unbridled). Just search for him in Bloodhorse's search bar and include the words "Maiden Watch", that's where I found it. He won by 7 1/2 at Hawthorne on 11/26 and is trained by Greg Geier, who has strings at Hawthorne and Arlington but I don't know where Geier's winter base is at. Internal and closing fractions were both decent,with final time of 6f in 1:12.24, but take that with a grain of salt because of course Hawthorne isn't exactly known for its blazing fast times. I confess to being a fan of all things Street Cry, and won't be surprised by any number of future Derby winners his line produces. (How many other stallions do you know who've taken home the BC Juvenile, Kentucky Derby, Breeders' Cup Classic, Travers, BC Distaff and Sun Chariot (Eng-1) all in one crop?!)

Age of Reason 26 Dec 2011 1:43 PM

Coldfacts,

Do not listen to the people who are making jokes about Out Of Bounds. This colt is still green and has plenty of ability to work with in 2012. I rarely score with a Harty trained horse, but this one looks like a budding star.

Alex'sBigFan,

My baby is doing well, she is already 9 months old. I only brought her to the races one time over the summer. Next year my goal is to bring her to her first Travers day. I need to find a babysitter so that I can go and watch War Horse.

Consortium finished second recently, he should keep on improving and make some noise at Gulfstream before the winter is over. In my opinion most horses do not need lasix. Ask any top trainer how many horses in the barn are true bleeders. The answer would be very few, so why are horses subjected to race day drugs?

You mentioned commissioner as a horses name, a commissioner is what horse racing needs now! There are far to many race tracks in different states with different rules and regulations. The sport of horse racing needs a common rule book and a ruling commissioner. Instead we have a group of individuals here in NY who want to end Dutrow's career. And we have another group of cowards in KY who rudely ended the career of John Veitch. Veitch gets a death sentence for his job, yet Todd Pletcher walks free and assumes zero responsiblity for the health and welfare of his own horse. And now in CA I just heard about possible hedge betting. Hedge betting is bad for racing, I hope Betfair keeps their idea in England.

Forbidden Apple 26 Dec 2011 7:11 PM

Ah, I see some things never change. Happy Holidays everyone. Happy New Year also. Maybe the new year will start bringing Jason and the rest of the clan better luck betting. Talk to you next year.

Billy's Empire

Billy's Empire 27 Dec 2011 2:16 PM

If you are cosidering Timely Tally as a futures bet, don't. Latest from Wilkes:

“Motor City got a break after the Iroquois and he’s just come back into training,” said Wilkes. “I haven’t planned on anything for him yet, but he should be ready sometime around the end of February. Timely Tally, on the other hand, will be done for a while. He has a tendon issue. It’s not career-threatening, but I’m trying to work out now how much time I’ll have to give him.”

predict 27 Dec 2011 6:37 PM

Making future bet at this time is like lighting match to your $100 bill.......ridiculous bet at any odds........if required to make bet , it would be on Union Rags......but toooooo many things can happen between now and first Saturday in May.......ask any trainer or owner.

Your Only Friend 27 Dec 2011 9:30 PM

Jacob Bratcher,

Street Boss from Street Cry’s first crop was 3rd in the Breeder’s Cup as well. I consider his biggest winner to date to be from his second crop and that is Shocking who won the 2009 Melbourne Cup. Interestingly, Shocking and Derby/Traverse winner Street Sense were bred along the same cross. Street Sense dam was sired by a son of Northern Dancer and Shocking ‘s dam was sired by a grandson of Northern Dancer.

Coldfacts 28 Dec 2011 1:45 AM

Any way you look at it.....Future wager is a bad bet.......Horses mature differently.....those that were  great horse as two year old will face newcomers.....others are taking their time growing up.

Your Only Friend 28 Dec 2011 1:02 PM

Happy New Year to you too Billy's Empire, and to all the bloggers.

Footlick 29 Dec 2011 10:46 AM


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