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Eclipse Awards Review

273 Comments

The 2011 racing season officially came to an end Monday in California with the Eclipse Awards. Save a few categories, the ceremony was almost as anticlimactic as the racing was last year. Whether or not your favorite horse won last night or not, I think most of us will agree that 2011 was one of the most uneventful years in recent memory. If that sounds too harsh, the Eclipse Awards was the perfect reminder that last year's handicap division, turf divisions for both sexes, and 3-year-old males were some of the most uninspiring we've seen in many years. Injuries and early retirements certainly played a large part in that, but it was our reality nonetheless. Here's to 2012 making up for what 2011 was not.

As far as the ceremony goes, let me say that thank heavens they made a wise choice to have Jeannine Edwards host the show. She was the perfect host--classy, polished, knowledgeable, funny, and passionate--and she helped make up for an amateurish production that reminded me of a 1980s local cable show. I said helped. The awkward pauses and silences between segments, long periods of black TV screen, frequent interruptions and skipping as if we were watching on a poor web server, the same ads that were run over and over again, and an overall boring presentation made a long ceremony that is usually a yawner, nearly impossible to get through. I was watching on HRTV, but some people told me that the webcasts on DRF and NTRA were riddled with stoppages and interruptions, making it very difficult to follow. From what I heard, HRTV picked up the telecast at the last minute in order to save the industry the embarrassment of having it untelevised. If that's the case, it sure looked like a last-minute production.

Here's an idea: Just scrap the ceremony altogether. Going forward, they should just name two award winners each day for a week. That's how they do it in baseball. Gold Glovers one day in the National League, Gold Glovers in the American league the following day; Cy Young winners in each league on other days, MVPs in each league after that. The Eclipse Awards ceremony has been a boring, second-rate production for many years now. Last night reinforced that more than ever.

Of the few highlights that I saw, one came from Cot Campbell, who earned the Eclipse Award of Merit and gave a passionate and inspiring speech. Even retired and at 84, it is still evident that Campbell loves this industry and put everything he had into it.

I also thought John Doyle, who was honored as the National Handicapper of the year after winning last year's championships in Las Vegas, gave a nice little acceptance speech. His enthusiasm for the game really came across and he reminded us all that it's the horses and the horse players that are the lifeblood of this sport. Too often the latter is overlooked, and Doyle did a nice job of pointing that out in an inspired speech.

Bill Spawr and the Amazombie crew were easily the most animated group of winners. It was nice to see (and hear) their enthusiasm and real joy when winning. Spawr's speech was entertaining to watch.

As far as the award winners, the voters had a pretty easy time this year. There were only a handful of categories that took some critical thinking and research. I would have voted for Game On Dude for Older Horse, but I was Ok with Acclamation winning. He was deserving. Musical Romance winning by such a large margin for female sprinter was surprising too, as was Hansen in 2-year-old male, but I was fine with both of them too.

The two categories where voters failed were 3-year-old male and trainer. I like both Animal Kingdom and Bill Mott, so it is nothing personal against either. But when you look at the numbers, it was pretty clear that wrong horse and person won in both categories.

As far as 3-year-old male, Animal Kingdom defeated Caleb's Posse by three votes. I genuinely felt bad for the connections of Caleb's Posse, especially small-time breeder/co-owner Don McNeil and trainer Donnie Von Hemel, who is a class act and did not do one bit of lobbying for the award. Unfortunately, that may have cost Caleb's Posse in the end.

Caleb's Posse was one of two 3-year-old males to win two grade I races in 2011 (The Factor was the other). He raced 10 times, won five of them including four graded stakes, defeated champion Uncle Mo in a prestigious grade I sprint at Saratoga, destroyed the field in the grade I BC Dirt Mile, which included Eclipse Award finalist Shackleford, and raced at seven different racetracks at five different distances. When compared to Animal Kingdom, he won two more races, one additional grade I, and raced a complete season. Those that voted for Animal Kingdom did so obviously because they thought in a weak year he won the most important race for 3-year-olds. But the horse did not race beyond June 11. The only time I can give a pass to a horse that raced only half the year is if he won at least two Triple Crown races, just as Smarty Jones did in 2004. Yes, Animal Kingdom did show up in all three Triple crown races, but he won only one. If voters wanted to reward a horse for running the entire Triple Crown they should have voted for Shackleford. He did so too, won one of them, and still ran a full season.

Where is the rule that says a 3-year-old has to run in the Classic races to win an Eclipse Award? This year, voters rewarded horses like Amazombie, Hansen, Musical Romance, and Royal Delta for winning their all-important Breeders' Cup races, and Bill Mott for winning two races. But when it came down to 3-year-old male, those that voted for Animal Kingdom said that BC Dirt Mile was not important enough. In doing so, Animal Kingdom joins Prairie Bayou as the only other 3-year-old male to win an Eclipse Award with just a single grade I victory to his credit.

In the trainer category, Mott obviously won because he had a superb November when he scored the biggest Breeders' Cup races on both days and had a phenomenal six-week run at Churchill Downs and Aqueduct. But let's look at the numbers:

Mott had about $10.7 million in earnings, which was well below that of the other two finalists, Bob Baffert ($14.1 million) and Todd Pletcher ($17.1 million). He also had significantly less wins (101) than the other two 130 Baffert, 254 Pletcher), and his win percentage of 17% was much lower than Baffert (26%) and Pletcher (25%). When compared to Baffert, Mott sent out 578 starters compared to 503. Yes, Mott actually had more starters than Baffert.

More glaring was the fact that Pletcher won 43 graded stakes and Baffert 28, compared to Mott's 15. And Baffert had an incredible 11 grade I victories, more than double that of Mott and Pletcher. In summary, Baffert had a monster year from January to December. You could make a strong case for Pletcher too, but Baffert, who also had a Breeders' Cup win by the way, was your deserving Eclipse winner this year. Take nothing away from Mott, who is unarguably one of the best trainers we've ever seen and is a classy guy, but his two Breeders' Cup wins should not have trumped a year's worth of excellence from the other two candidates, especially Baffert.

273 Comments:

There wasn't anything wrong with the DRF webcast that I watched.  I didn't have any issues with it.  I think some people may need to upgrade the RAM in their computer or upgrade their internet connection or both. My reception was fine.  

I also think Animal Kingdom was a deserving winner. He would have gotten my vote because to win the 3yo award, I think you need to defeat other leading 3yos, which Animal Kingdom did in the KD and he finished ahead of many of them again in the Preakness. It's not like he chose to sit out the second half of the year.  He was hurt. IMO, he showed in the TC that he was the best horse of that group, even putting in an impressive run in the Belmont while suffering from a fractured leg. Caleb's Posse did great, but I can't say that I think he proved he is the best 3yo. He didn't defeat any of the leading ones, and that is why I would not have voted for him.  

MAT 17 Jan 2012 3:08 PM

MAT: Sounds like you put in the same amount of research as other voters. You say Caleb's Posse didnt defeat any of the leading 3YOs. He beat Shackleford in the Dirt Mile, Mo in the King's Bishop, and To Honor and Serve in the Amsterdam.

Jason Shandler 17 Jan 2012 3:17 PM

Jason: Let's face it...you're going to receive alot of negative and criticizing comments (don't you always?  Lol) but, I for one totally agree with your insights.  Baffert deserved Trainer....Shackleford was the consistent one who always showed up and isn't that what racing is truly about ?...we can go on and on and argue and argue.  Bottom line is...it is about money !  All about money...who has the most...kiss-ass...any horse could run till they dropped and still the bottom line would be MONEY !  Sad that racing has reached the point it has.  Let's just hope that 2012 is a FAR better year in all aspects...or, I fear more fans will be lost in clearly an industry that can not afford to lose the horse or horseplayer.

I appreciate your insight.

breeze10 17 Jan 2012 3:28 PM

I would have picked AK.  He won the big one in a fairly run race and was a game 2nd in the Preakness.  Not to take anything away from Caleb's Posse but the BC dirt mile is not even close to being in the same league as the Derby.

Carl 17 Jan 2012 3:41 PM

The crowning of Animal Kingdom was a bit upsetting to me. I have always said that to much weight is given to the KY Derby. I don't buy the argument that Animal Kingdom was hurt, therfore he missed the rest of the season. Tizway only missed his last start of the year due to injury and he received zero respect in the voting. Caleb's Posse was the deserving 3 year old champion.

Forbidden Apple 17 Jan 2012 3:44 PM

both Tizway and Caleb's Posse had award winning seasons and it is an absolute joke that either one came away empty handed.  Incredible, just incredible.

Mike from Michigan 17 Jan 2012 4:51 PM

I agree with the eclipse award review. HRTV gets a pass if they agreed to televise this at the last moment but the production  came across as second rate at best. The Thoroughbred industry would be better off not televising this at all, or perhaps consider investing its own money into creating a more professional telecast.  If it wasn't for the classy Jeannine Edwards, It would have been more painfull to watch

dms 17 Jan 2012 4:52 PM

Yes!  HOY was given to the horse that earned it on the track unlike last year!  Well done turf writers. The two categories they missed were trainer (Baffert) and 3 year old male (Caleb's Posse). The older filly division will most likely again be the most competitive with the deepest talent pool.  Too bad Blind Luck isn't available to get kicked around like she did last year.

Sylvester 17 Jan 2012 4:53 PM

Agree, Eclipse Awards presentation left a lot to be desired. It might be a good idea to allow justone or no more than two persons to accept an award. The proceedings started to drag when the stage was turned into a winner's circle picture. As for announcing the awards in the same manner as the MVPs or Cy Youngs, we would miss some of the truly touching moments of the ceremony that were mentioned in the blog.

lenben 17 Jan 2012 5:25 PM

Most of the choices were ok but I was not able to view it. I only get TVG which for some reason was not carrying it in addition to HRTV. When I tried to watch it online on DRF - it kept timing out

on me so I gave up.  Not a good thing for racing fans.

AnneM 17 Jan 2012 5:46 PM

I agree with jason scrap the ceramony all together. First of all the ceramony should be done right after the breeders cup why wait until January anyways? 2nd scrap all the catagories and just have one or two trophies not 10 thats just dumb.

It aint easy being good! 17 Jan 2012 6:35 PM

Watched on drf.com, had no trouble, other than the audio going out for a few seconds in parts. Other than that not trouble viewing, the TV version sounds dreadful though. Agree on Ms. Edwards, terrific host, hope they consider bringing her back. She was the only spot of life in an otherwise dead-zone room. When has this show been anything but a bore?? They say the Oscars drag, but here it seemed as though every single person who got to the podium, non-winners, had to give a long speech. I thought it would never end. Overall I agree with the winners, was surprised than Animal Kingdom won, I just didn't think he would. I'm personally fine with Mott winning trainer. HOY, I'm a bit disappointed, maybe its because of the lack of true standout, I sorta thought no one actually was truly and completely deserving, and the winner was by default. I personally picked Acclamation, but I'm fine with Grace winning. This year I'd like to see if she can win at 1 1/4. Well indeed hoping 2012 is a better and more inspiring season than 2011, and really hoping they can somehow inject some life into these ceremonies for next year.

rorschach1992 17 Jan 2012 6:40 PM

The problem is that one, the Eclipse Awards on the whole are a farce, not just from a production standpoint.  There are quite a few horses in past years that were CLEARLY the best in their divisions and were not properly honoured either by division awards or HoY.  

That said, we need to have two separate categories when it comes to trainers like Pletcher, Baffert, Lucas, and then the other guys like Jones or the other small time guys on the big stage that are actually TRAINERS and not MANAGERS like Pletcher/Baffert/et al are.  You simply cannot be a trainer when you have barns on both coasts.  You manage.  Your assistants are the trainers.  There's a difference and that needs to be acknowledged like the assistant trainers need to be acknowledged.

skyringer 17 Jan 2012 6:44 PM

I am disappointed by the voters decision to crown Animal Kingdom as champion 3 year old male. He did beat alot of the top 3 year olds in the KD, but I think consistency is vital and unfortunately he never got to show he had it. I mean there are horses that had superb races, and have not been able to follow up on them. For example, if Stay Thirsty only ran in the Jim Dandy and Travers this season, I guess he would be neck and neck with AK for 3 year old champ.  In the Travers he essentially beat the same horses Animal Kingdom did, at the same classic length. The thing with Stay Thirsty is that he couldn't remain consistent, and lost against older horses in the JGC and got beat badly in the BC classic. Long story short, one great win is awesome, but I don't think a horse should be named 3 year old champ until they can prove they could win consistently throughout the year. That being said, I love AK, and I hope this award is the start of a great year for him. I don't think he couldn't have been consistent, but since he never got to show that he could, I don't think he should have been crowned 3 year old champ.

dryice55 17 Jan 2012 7:03 PM

Congratulations to Havre de Grace! Look forward to seeing her compete again in 2012. If memory serves me correctly, the United States now stands alone as the only nation with three consecutive Distaff Horses of the Year--all 3 of which will no doubt go down in history as having made unique and lasting contributions to the sport.

Sylvester: No sour grapes here! Zenyatta was long ago retired, put out to pasture, and your vitriol against her should be also. Please, let's move on.

Age of Reason 17 Jan 2012 7:10 PM

One would think that an industry desperately trying to attract a new fanbase and maintain their existing one would put on a worthy production, especially one broadcast from California, wouldn't one?  I agree Jason, a lackluster awards ceremony except for Jeannine.  Why not invest industry monies and show it on ABC or NBC (following suit with the TC races and BC races) so the "mainstream" fan gets to see the culmination of the horseracing year and how it ended.  They (industry) cannot, as a whole, even come up with viable marketing ideas and strategies let alone produce an awards ceremony show which is sad.  There is so much creativity that could have been put into that awards show.

As for the awards themselves, congratulations to Havre de Grace, et al.  Baffert should have gotten the trainer award and I love AK but Caleb was slighted, that was the tough one, the 3 yr. old male category.  

So we sit now in a time period of 3 consecutive back-to-back female HOY winners...........the newly turned 3 year old males have a lot to overcome and prove this year, c'mon Rags and Hansen, bring on the TC run.

Alex'sBigFan 17 Jan 2012 7:12 PM

Jason,

I'm in shock that Caleb's Posse lost out to Animal Kingdom ...still can't believe it ...absolutely incredible. Yes the Kentucky Derby is a very important race but in a year of no-standouts among the Triple Crown contenders, Caleb's Posse's accomplishment towers over the others like a collusus. I just don't get it. What were the voters thinking? They got it wrong. I don't like the mentality on display in this one. I'm also in agreement on the loss of Bob Baffert to Bill Mott.

There needs to be a discussion on what values/criteria should guide these Eclipse awards. Perhaps some kind of survey of voters could be done to find out what criteria guided the voters in their decision on certain  controversial categories.  This could help bring some understanding as to what the values of voters are in assessing championship honours.

The margin of Hansen's victory for champion 2YO was also a surprise. Nevertheless its congratulations to the connections: that colt is something special. The Union Rags vs Hansen debate was so intense that I expected the result to be closer either way but the Breeders Cup photo finish result was the trump card in this case ...no so for Blame last year and no respect for Caleb's Posse's Breeder's Cup humbling of "iron horse" and Preakness winner Shackleford (whose revenge victory over Animal Kingdom should also have redounded to a championship for Caleb's Posse). The winds of democracy certainly blow in unpredictable directions. Anyway congratulations are in order for all the winners.

Ranagulzion 17 Jan 2012 7:47 PM

I love Caleb's Posse and his owners and trainer:  class acts all.  I would vote for them; I found the campaigning by Rick Porter and Larry Jones, starting with whining after the Delaware Handicap, very distasteful,  as well as that by Team Valor.  As you pointed out,  Shackleford would have been worthy if classic wins are a requirement.  

Bill Mott had his horses peaked at the right time -- guess that is the goal.  If so, Caleb should have won.  Inconsistent voters.

skyfire 17 Jan 2012 7:48 PM

It doesn't take a lot of research to figure this one out, Jason.  By BEST I was thinking of those who won 3yo G1 races this year (which leaves out 2 of your 3). On that score AK is way ahead. AK finished in front of far more of them than Caleb's Posse did, including the winners of the Travers, Florida Derby, Santa Anita Derby, Arkansas Derby, Blue Grass Stakes, Preakness Stakes. Easy decision for me. Glad the vote confirmed it.

MAT 17 Jan 2012 7:57 PM

Baffert seemed to be firing on all cylinders last year.  Did anyone catch The Factor's Malibu Stakes? or Game on Dude's Santa Anita Handicap or Breeder's Cup Classic after the later was given no shot?  I'm pretty sure First Dude had a pretty good run under his direction as well, as well as Drill and Euroears.  I'm pretty sure he had some 2 year olds in his barn as well.  Other than turf, I can't think of a division he did not have a grade 1 horse competing and winning. In fact, I can't think of a time (other than coming close to winning the Triple Crown with Real Quiet) where he was any better.  

Householder 17 Jan 2012 8:08 PM

I couldn't agree more with you Jason. Caleb's Posse was the rightful winner, as was Bob Baffert. I was really shocked to see they didn't give it to Caleb's Posse. I was also miffed that Blind Luck didn't get Older Female. She should have been rewarded with something because everyone knew that HDG got HOTY. For my money, she is better than HDG when all the chips are counted. Jason, your comments about the broadcast were spot on. Very cheesy. Jeannine saved it as much as she could. But I would miss it if it weren't televised. I like to hear the acceptance speeches etc. As you noted, some are worth hearing. Nice to see how happy Rapid Redux's connections were about their win. As they said, they will probably never get an Eclipse Award again for anything.  Great comments/post Jason.

Paula Higgins 17 Jan 2012 8:11 PM

I was terribly disappointed to see Caleb's Posse non win in the Sprinter category. Watching him run in the Rebel in person was such fun. This little horse never gave up and always came running at the end. Quality horse and trainer. Looking forward to more Von Hemel horses.

dasheffi 17 Jan 2012 8:28 PM

Winning the Kentucky Derby is its own reward. The importance of the Derby doesn't need the promotional help of crowning as champion 3YO colt, a horse that doesn't deserve it while denying the deserving Caleb's Posse because he didn't compete in the Triple Crown races. This is absolutely ridiculous. Animal Kingdom was not a dominant force among the 3YO colts. He won the Derby but lost the Preakness. I wouldn't hold his Belmont misfortunes against him but there's no guarantee that he would have won that either with racing luck. Caleb's Posse was much the best 3YO colt defeating the mighty Uncle Mo and thrashing a good field of old horses in the Grade One Breeder's Cup Dirt Mile with a rare (for 2011) 111 Beyer. This Eclipse result is very upsetting.

Ranagulzion 17 Jan 2012 9:52 PM

I'm back....Lisa T will win the Derby!  Just kidding....

Last night's eclipse award show on HRTV was a disaster.  Here are some ideas on how to improve the show:

1).  Hire Peter Tolan (Rescue Me) as the writer.  The man is a genius and a horse player.

2).  Hire Neumy as the 2013 MC or Jason and Tom!

3).  One speaker can accept an award and that speaker actually has to have a personality.  

4).  Give Cot Campbell an award every year!

5)  Have the show in a theatre rather then in a the local VFW.

6)  Award winners should use the microphone.  

7)  Get more celebrities involved.

I agree, Caleb's Posse got screwed last night.

I actually find the Eclipse award for the top trainer to be boring.  Its' always the same 3-5 trainers that are nominated.  

I also heard from a reliable source that Jason is the person who voted for Uncle Moe for three yr old champion.

I'm back in the saddle again!!!!

Trebloc 17 Jan 2012 9:52 PM

Overall, I am okay with the awards but I feel that everyone should be forced to announce their selections. For example, the three year male category, everyone should be asked who was their selection. Selecting horses like Ruler on Ice and Uncle Mo should be explained over other more deserving horses. I am glad you explain your vote to the public on this blog. Whether we agree with you or not, at least we know where you stand on the vote.

RJPPDP 17 Jan 2012 9:55 PM

Excellent recap.  Even though the  show wasn't flawless, and a tad boring as usual, I'm still very glad I could watch on HRTV.

I agree totally on Caleb's Posse - many people including myself felt he was the best 3 year old Male. The voting was close huh.? It was the only surprise in the evening I thought. His connections should have stumped for him more. It seems like many forgot what he accomplished, but thats the way it goes sometimes.

Here's to hoping that all the horses and riders stay safe in 2012.

Zen's Auntie 17 Jan 2012 9:57 PM

Speaking of Von Hemel Horses,  dasheffi, Its not hard to like his pretty girl, Know I Know - a   snowflake pewter Gray homebred he co-owns with Wayne Stockseth. Shes a peach!

Zen's Auntie 17 Jan 2012 10:31 PM

This was the first Eclipse Awards ceremony that I saw live. I was not that impressed. I agree that Ms. Edwards did a nice job but overall the show moved at a glacial pace. Those accepting awards were asked at the start of the ceremony to keep their remarks to a minute. Apparently a minute is much longer on the west coast. That might explain why they are 3 hours behind us in the east.

I have no real issues with the winners except for 3-year-old colt. I love Animal Kingdom but feel that Caleb's Posse had the better season and deserved the Eclipse.

DaleinVa 17 Jan 2012 10:33 PM

The top rated horse in the world for 2011 is a turf miler named Frankel, a 3YO colt that beat older horses once (never run two turns) and you mean to tell me that Eclipse award voters thought that they would be killing some sacred cow or committing racing sacrilidge to vote two time Grade One winner and Breeder's Cup Dirt mile victor, Caleb's Posse as champion 3YO colt in America? What kind of insanity came over those voters?  "Something is rotten in the state of denmark!!!"

Ranagulzion 17 Jan 2012 10:45 PM

I completely agree with you!!  And I also agree that Jeannine Edwards was a great hostess!  MUCH better than past years!  I hope they keep her!

HorseRacingFan 17 Jan 2012 10:54 PM

Ranagulzion- Frankel ran against older twice.  The Sussex and the QEII are both for 3 yr olds and up.

Footlick 17 Jan 2012 11:48 PM

She is of course, NOW I KNOW sorry for the typo...

Zen's Auntie 18 Jan 2012 12:10 AM

I see there is consensus that Caleb’s Posse was the best 3YO and was robbed of the eclipse award. Well what do the cold facts reflect about the best 3YO? The answers to the following questions should give some insight:

How many derby preps did he win? None! He contested three and finished 6th, 2nd & 12th

Did secure the requisite graded earnings to enter the Derby or Preakness? No.

Did he enter the Belmont where graded earning was not an issue? No.

Did he participate in the ultimate test for 3YOs? No.

How many of the other top races for 3YO did he participate in i.e., Haskell, Jim Dandy and Travers? None!

Did either face or he defeated the Derby and Belmont winner? No

Did he face all the top 3YO? No.

Was he hidden from top class completion when at their best? Yes

Did he defeat Uncle Mo and To Honor and Server when both were retuning injury/sickness? Yes

Did reengage Uncle Mo and To Honor and Serve in the Kelso and PA Derby when they were much fitter? No

The alleged top 3YO won the following graded races:

Iowa Derby G3 defeating Marco’s Fling and Irish Lion.

Amsterdam G2 defeating Redeemed and Wine Police. The brilliant THS was returning from injury and total fitness was suspect.

King’s Bishop G1 defeating Uncle Mo and Justin Phillip. The brilliant Uncle Mo was returning from a serious sickness and total fitness suspect.

Breeder Cup Dirt Mile G1 defeating Shackleford and Tres Borrachos. Top class colt Shackleford was at the back end of demanding season i.e., Derby Preskness, Belmont, Haskell, Traverse and Indiana Derby. Six G1 and one G2.

Folks the Top 3YO defeat the top three colts he met when he had the advantage. He avoided Uncle Mo and To Honor and Serve in the Kelso and PA Derby. Why should he when he previously defeated both. The only horses that the best 3YO defeated that entered the Triple Crown series was Shackleford. Top rated Uncle Mo and To Honor and Serve missed their Triple Crown opportunity due to the issues. Caleb’s Posse defeated the like of Marco’s Fling, Irish Lion, Redeemed, Wine Police and Justin Phillip. The aforementioned horses like Caleb’s Posse were not good enough to make the cut for the either the Derby or Preakness and bypassed the Belmont and other major 3YO races. Take away the victories over Uncle Mo and To Honor and Serve due to their lack of fitness and it becomes blatantly obvious that the better of the second stringers won those races. Caleb’s Posse did not have a strong pace to run at in the Iowa Derby was beaten by Wilburn & Shackleford . He returned the favor in the BC Dirt Mile. Both he and the Preakness winner share victories over each other. Yet he got 111 votes and Shack got 12.

Folks it’s time to replace the emotions with the cold facts. Caleb’s Posse was neither the number one nor number two 3YO in spite of the number of voted he secured.

Coldfacts 18 Jan 2012 12:32 AM

Jason, You get a lot of criticism, but I apreciate that you at least have the guts to stand by your thoughts, and not flow with the flow, like these BS voters and fans did in Eclipse awards.

I am stunned at everybody who is supporting AK. As big of a fan as I am of AK, I am an honest horse racing fan. And YOU THE VOTERS, you just killed the charm for me. I have a question, "If winning a Big won, or perhaps the Biggest one is enough for winning an eclipse, Then Why Are We Not Voting For Drosselmyer as Older Horse or may be HOY ?" After all, he won the biggest one of the year, unquestionably, fair n square. Eclipse award is for the one who performs best overall, during the year. American racing fans, and especially voters are cruel when it comes to awarding horses which are not bred to go long. I bet if Posse had won at longer distance, he would have been crowned. Just look at what he has done in this year, I mean how can you knock him down, and against a horse, who despite of all the talent, IS STILL A ONE HIT WONDER.... do you guys forget Mine That Bird, who ran 1st in KD, 2nd in Preakness and 3rd in Belmont. Does AK have a resume better than MTB at this point ? not much.....

Hey.... the award is Best 3 yr old,"NOT" THE BEST 3 YR OLD AT CLASSIC DISTANCE..... gimme a break

sharjyl 18 Jan 2012 12:43 AM

And those of you who think the voting for the trainer was fair..... Lets rename Breeders Cup Championships as "Eclipse Award Determining Championship While Not Giving A S*** About Rest of The Year"

I feel for you mr. Baffert. I hope your son is well. All my respects for Mr. Mott, great trainer, but the voters...i mean......seriously ?

sharjyl 18 Jan 2012 12:49 AM

How Animal Kingdom beat out Caleb's Posse is one I don't understand. Caleb definately had the better year. Funny, Mine that Bird ran in all 3 legs of the triple crown and walked away with a first, second, and third. He was branded a fluke and received a crown of thorns. Animal Kingdom ran first, second, and sixth in the triple crown races and no more the entire year and he reaps the reward of champion 3 year old. Only in horse racing folks, only in horse racing.

ksweatman9 18 Jan 2012 1:50 AM

Q: Jason, it would be most interesting to see the balloting results from the voters (who voted for who).  Is the public privy to such info?  If so, can you publish same?  

Mike from Michigan 18 Jan 2012 2:23 AM

I didn't get to watch the awards show this year as my carrier offers only TVG, so I was disappointed TVG did not carry the awards show this year.  Though it sounds as though I didn't miss much.

I'm in complete agreement with Jason's comments regarding 3-yr old colt and top trainer.  Ranagulzion said it well, winning the Kentucky Derby is it's own reward.  No doubt it puts a 3-yr old on the fast track to the championship, but for that to be AK's only G1 win?  Not enough.  Not when a nice colt like Caleb's Posse sustains a full season with impressive wins in good competition.  It's apparent 3-yr old colts are severely penalized in year end voting if they don't compete in the classic races.  

In regards to Bill Mott; he is probably my favorite trainer.  A great horseman and you never hear anything bad from him or about him, but.... he didn't have as productive a year as the other two finalists.  Yes, he ended with a bang, but last I heard they race horses year 'round now.

robinm 18 Jan 2012 4:41 AM

Paula; I enjoy your posts and generally am in agreement with most of your comments, but they could not have given divisional honors to Blind Luck and HOY to Havre De Grace, or are you saying Blind Luck should have been HOY also?

robinm 18 Jan 2012 4:45 AM

It was an award show, folks, what kind of riveting drama did you expect?

This was a GREAT year for racing! No one horse dominated the conversation, Turf writers actually had to talk about all the horses, not just fawn over and over ad nauseum about one horse...

The betting was the most fun in years! Who knew who would win?!

Lots of fun last year.

Rachel NH 18 Jan 2012 5:25 AM

Ceremony was no worse or better than any previous years.  They simply must find a way to move it along more efficiently.

Caleb's Posse deserved 3-year old award.  I'm somewhat less disappointed that the vote was so close - 114 - 111.  Good case for Baffert winning the trainer award, but I'm happy Mott got it.  I'm in the minority, but Union Rag's resume is way better than Hansen's.  It'll be interesting to see if both or even one of them get to the Derby.

Jeannine looked lovely and did her very best to carry the show.

I do get HRTV and was able to watch it live, but I must admit that I switched to the debates and Johnny Depp in CRY BABY for some of the acceptance speeches.  :-)

Here's to 2012 - good horses that stay sound and a better retirement plan for ALL of, regardless if they're not the stars.

fanofallthree 18 Jan 2012 6:07 AM

Jason, I can agree with your analysis, except for one point.  The worst thing that could happen with the Eclipse Awards would be to eliminate the production.  Do it like baseball, and so few people would know about them, or even care.  Baseball has a fan base that can simply announce awards.  Racing needs a bigger and more diverse fan base.  So, put time and money into a quality production, promote it, and get more people to watch on a cable channel like ESPN. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but racing needs more, not less, television exposure.  Thanks for keeping the conversation going... and real.

SuiteLife 18 Jan 2012 6:09 AM

I too was disappointed in Caleb's Posse being shut out in the 3 year old category.  I did expect AK to win the category, though I didn't agree with it.  I think that folks just chose a router over a sprinter, and if that's the case, CP came very close to upsetting that apple cart. I was surprised that Shackleford was nominated, because he won only one race all year.

I has happy to see Bill Mott win the Trainer award.  Considering that he doesn't send out as many horses as Baffert, taking the BCL and the BCC seemed to be the pivotal weight in the decision made.

Because I felt that BL was every bit as good as HDG, and couldn't separate their accomplishments, I wouldn't have chosen HDG for HOY.  (It seems everyone forgot about Blind Luck once her stats cooled down, but she did best HDG more than once.)  If Acclamation had made it to the BC, I would have been comfortable if he won it.  But the spectacular run by Game On Dude in the BCC, and all of his dogfights leading up to that Classic race put him in the lead for me for HOY.

Let's not forget, The Eclipse awards have usually been a private ceremony for those directly involved with the nominees.  Isn't this just the 3rd time the award ceremony has been televised?  The Eclipse awards and a television production are new to each other...give it time...we may someday get to know who wore Valentino or Armani.  The show has a lot of growing up to do.  Jeanine Edwards was fun...a bright spot in the evening.

And absolutely delighted to see Rapid Redux reap his own award.  If not that, I think he might have been a threat for HOY.

Slew 18 Jan 2012 7:22 AM

I felt badly for the connections of Blind Luck. She had no chance to win anything when Zenyatta was running. And now she is retired and is ineligable to win anything. However, she surely knew how to win on the track against Grade 1 horses including Harve de Grace and Switch. An Eclipse Award for best older female would have been in order.

TerriZ 18 Jan 2012 8:40 AM

Wasn't Caleb's Posse crushed by Wilburn in a Grade 2? Get real.

How many Grade 1's did Wilburn win?

JerseyBoy 18 Jan 2012 9:02 AM

Coldfacts,

This is rather off topic, but what are your thoughts on the Hollendorfer colt, Russian Greek? (The replay of his California Derby win over the weekend should still be up in Bloodhorse's video reel; it was his second consecutive stakes win over the Tapeta at Golden Gate, though he broke his maiden on dirt, at Santa Rosa, I believe.)

Age of Reason 18 Jan 2012 10:35 AM

That was pretty amateurish by anyone's standards.  If racing cannot produce a more professional ceremony for television just don't do it.  That's not the image you want to project to the public if racing expects to be considered a serious sport.  

Bill Two 18 Jan 2012 10:52 AM

Blind Luck had no luck when it came to the second half of her season.  Without doubt, the most impressive performance of the year was her win in the Delaware Handicap against Havre de Grace.  I think the energy it took to win that race must have taken something out of her.  What an effort!  I'm glad that Porter finally mentioned her and Hollendorfer.  Long overdue.

Bill Two 18 Jan 2012 11:03 AM

2012 is setting up to be a lot like 1973.  Very few talented older horses should set up a great 3 year old like Union Rags to have a huge year.

Draynay 18 Jan 2012 11:35 AM

Agree with most of your points, Jason, except one.  This is an awards show, and as such, it will always be boring to all but the participants!! Heck, even the Academy Awards with all its resources is usually a big gummy mess, Billy Crystal notwithstanding!  An award show is primarily for those who toiled, sweated and worked in the industry, and those outside are invited to watch, or not! Every industry outlet posted each win immediately, so it was not necessary to watch “live” to get up to the minute news of who won what.  As to the whining about not being able to watch, many must have missed the announcements made everywhere that the DRF live streamed, for free, no sign up required.  TwinSpires ran it, HRTV ran it (free no sign up). And, you aren't required to watch....just turn it off!

As to making the categories more clear as to what the voters should consider when making their choices, the voters are INDUSTRY INSIDERS, for Pete's sake! If they aren't voting like you think they should, then do a better job of educating them!  There's only 260-270 total voters (certainly under 300) and it's not like they hide, you as an industry insider can communicate with them!  Jeeeez.  Also, remember that there were some newbies voting this year, I believe, as the broadcasters were added to the Turf Writers group.  

Finally, if 2011 had been a better year, I don’t think any of this would have come up.  The fact is, as another writer (sorry, forget who) pointed out recently, 2011 was a muddle, similar to 1970!  Know who won HOY in 1970?  Personality and Fort Marcy shared the honor!!  Know what else happened in 1970?  Secretariat was born, also Forego!  But, it was also the start of the greatest decade in the history of the sport!  To come was Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, and John Henry was born in 1975!  Wouldn’t it be great if the next 10 years would be half as good as the 1970s for the sport?!  Heck, anything would be better, I would think.  JMHO

Deltalady 18 Jan 2012 11:38 AM

It was a sham for AK to win...what did he really do for the year to win the award?  Win one prestigous

race.  While Shackleford also won big race, the consistent horse was Caleb's Posse who was dismissed because he did not run in Breeders Classic but chose the Mile. Also, Baffert with his year overall was the best trainer for the WHOLE SEASON.  The Triple Crown has three races and none of the winners produced spectacular season.  I find it odd that it always appears that the voters place to much emphasis on the Breeders Cup day and on the Triple Crown races while forgetting that we are looking at a whole year.

LarryD 18 Jan 2012 12:14 PM

@TerriZ, Blind Luck was certainly eligible for year-end championships and in fact won one, in 2010 being named champion 3yo filly. She was nominated for 2yo filly champ in '09 but lost to the fluke She Be Wild. Obviously being only 2, and then 3, she couldn't compete with Zenyatta in the Older Female category. Don't feel too badly for Blind Luck or her connections. She had a stellar career, and was crowned a champion one year, and her other two year nominated for Championships.

rorschach1992 18 Jan 2012 12:25 PM

Jason, spot on regarding every one of your bullet points. That sub-rate televised production is a microcosm of thoroughbred racing's problem in marketing itself. Obviously, it's more than a TVG or HRTV production shortfall. Racing can't get out of its' own way!

Hold it in Las Vegas a week   after the Breeders' Cup and give it ESPN or NBC to produce as part of the Breeders' Cup package. Do something out of the box or racing will slowly die on the vine as it has for the past 20 years.

steve from st louis 18 Jan 2012 12:28 PM

ksweatman9 - Every year is different. Canonero II won champion 3yo of 1971 with a win in the Derby and Preakness, then a 4th in the Belmont when he shouldn't have run and went on the shelf. The winners of later races that counted were all horses he had defeated soundly and none could contend with the elders in the fall championship season.

Ah, yes,the Breeders' Cup Mile - the consolation race for the horses who can't run competitively in the Classic because of distant limitations, ala Corinthian. Won by such horses as Dakota Phone and Furthest Land (didn't he run in Claiming Crown race earlier in the year?). Maybe a better field this year, but hardly a race with a history of determining championships.

Just tacking the name Breeders' Cup on a race doesn't make it an important race - take a look at the two turf races for juveniles and this year's abysmal experiment, the BC Juvenile Sprint, aka the BC open allowance.  

Pedigree Ann 18 Jan 2012 12:44 PM

Dray - older horses in 1973 included Hall of Famers Riva Ridge and Cougar II, Prove Out (1 of two horses to break 2:26 for 12 furlongs on dirt at Belmont ever), Key to the Mint (1972 3 year old eclipse winner), and Kennedy Road.  Three year olds that year included Secretariat, Sham and Forego, two of those three being HOF horses.  Don't quite understand your last comment.

2:24 18 Jan 2012 1:07 PM

I was surprised and disappointed that Caleb's Posse did not win as top 3 Year Old Male.  Judging by the comments posted, general consensus has been in favor of this horse over Animal Kingdom.  It is a shame that the voters did see the big picture.  In this case, one major race (and perhaps the horse's connections) seemed to influence the voting just enough to win.  It will be interesting to see how Animal Kingdom performs this year.  Already his connections have very ambitious plans for him since the horse is being pointed towards the Dubai World Cup.

The show itself was boring with few highlights and the poor production values made it an embarrassment to watch.  For goodness sakes--this show was out in LA.  Do you mean to tell me that with all the talent in Hollywood, no one could come up with a better production team?  There are cable shows produced in people's basements that are better than what I saw on Monday night.

Jeannine Edwards was a good choice to host the show.  It is nice to see female representation, and I for one, am thankful that Jerry O'Connell was not a part of it.  Hopefully, next year's show will be an improvement over this one, but then again, I am guessing that I will have a better shot of picking the 2012 Derby winner than the latter happening.

genie918 18 Jan 2012 1:28 PM

Next year I hope they take Ted from LA's advice and have Sarah Palin, Pauly Shore, Kim Kardashian, and Pee Wee Herman run the Eclipse Awards.  And they need more clowns.  Everybody loves clowns.

Bob from Boston 18 Jan 2012 1:43 PM

One would be hard pressed to find a horse like Cougar II in racing's "modern era."  

Take a look at his race record sometime.  

But, in 1973 he was taking down some grade 1s like the Santa Anita Handicap and then a little trip over the turf in the Century and Sunset Handicaps.  

In between he shiped and faced the likes of Secretariat.

We don't have horses or trainers like this anymore.

Householder 18 Jan 2012 2:13 PM

Jeannine Edwards did an admirable job hosting a program that generally lacked 'polish', as almost everyone has agreed. In recent years TVG and now HRTV have shown the Eclipse Awards live, but as far back as 2004 (maybe even before) ESPN produced and aired it about a week later on ESPN2. I assumed they were no longer involved for some business reason(?)

It is unfortunate that Caleb's Posse did not merit an award. Maybe he will either stretch out or hone in on sprints only as an older horse in 2012. I wish his team good luck this year!

Karen in Texas 18 Jan 2012 2:39 PM

TerriZ and Higgins it doesn’t work that way.  Blind Luck was 3-4, beaten soundly by Always A Princess twice, HDG at equal weights and came in last place her final race.  Her only stirring victory was with her getting a weight allowance which gutted her.  You can’t have that kind of year and expect to win your division when others were clearly better and had better batting averages.  They did that last year with HOY and turned it into a joke sympathy award.  Higgins just when I think you’re starting to grasp things you post something ridiculous like that.  

Sylvester 18 Jan 2012 3:34 PM

Hello everyone I would like to know what receiving the eclipse award includes.I admit I didnt watch the presentation so I only see pictures that include recipiants toteing heavy trophies,Is their any type of financial compensation awarded when you win?

CHIEF PICAWINNA 18 Jan 2012 4:47 PM

Russian Greek.

I have taken note of his last two victories and have placed him under the Northern Dancer category of my spreadsheet. Below are things I have noted regarding this colt:

His pedigree reflects no inbreeding in his first five generations. Just like that of Secretariat, Curlin, Invasor Candy Ride etc.  I cannot definitively state that this is a positive but the aforementioned champions had no inbreeding in the first five generations.

His dam was lightly raced and that’s a positive in my books. The negative about her is the fact that she was sired by a Derby winner. Derby winners are poor Triple Crown broodmare sires. Grindstone her dam sire is a son of Unbridled the greatest extension of Mr. Prospector. Unbridled was dam sire of Tapit, Wood Memorial (G1); Shackleford Preakness (G1) and Denis Of Cork, 3rd Kentucky Derby (G1). Grindstone could therefore turn out to be a good broodmare sire.

His sire Giant’s Causeway is bred to almost 200 mares each year. Overbred stallions do not have a good record in the Triple Crown sires. This might just be the colt’s major negative.

He is dkb/br colt and I would be more excited about him if he were chestnut like his sire.  Some of Giant’s Causeway’s best horses are chestnuts. Red Giant: Set a world turf course record in the Clement Hirsch, running 1¼ miles in 1:57.16.  First Samurai: Champagne S. (G1), Hopeful S. (G1); 3rd Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1) Fountain Of Youth S. (G2) Eskendereya: Wood Memorial (G1) Fountain Of Youth S. (G2) Giant Oak Clark H. (G1); Steven Foster,  Donn H (G1) ; Aragorn; Eishin Apollon ; Suzuka Causeway, My Typhoon, Swift Temper and  Heatseeker.

Some Giant’s Causeway best dkb/br horses were Hold Me Back, A Shine G Line and Air Mccool. They are nice horse but not classy. What does the kind of coats have to do with horses? Nothing! However, in the case of Giant’s Causeway his chestnuts seem to be better.

He is an interesting colt who seems to have an abundance of stamina and appears very honest. However, I do not see him as a major player in the Derby. Too many negatives! That said any horse that make the Derby field has a chance to win.  Mine That Bird won one race as a 3YO which just happened to be the Kentucky Derby in what was his only win on dirt. Giiacomo won the Derby with only a maiden win to his credit. Russian Greek already has three wins to his credit.

Coldfacts 18 Jan 2012 10:00 PM

robinm, no not HOTY for Blind Luck, just Older Female. I don't think the all or none principle necessarily apllies here. I mean, she was nominated after all.Sylvester, did she or did she not beat HDG in one of their matchups? I understand your point but I thinks she needed to be recognized for the superior horse that she was. She had only one shot, in the Older Female category. For goodness sakes, enough already with the HOTY Sympathy Award. She won,get over it. To the person who said Billy Crystal for emcee next year-YES!

Paula Higgins 18 Jan 2012 10:43 PM

Slew,

Shackleford won two races in 2011 and not one as you have highlighted. He contested six consecutive G1 races and seven overall in 2011. Stay Thirsty contest 7 G1 races as well. Caleb’s posse contested 3 G1 races. I cannot see why you are disappointed that Caleb’s Posse was not given the nod. How could you explain the fact the champion 3YO male never participated in any of the top races for 3YO? He never participated in any of the top races for older horses. I could understand if he was considered a late developer and won some of the top 3YO races at Saratoga or some of the top races for older horses. Take Stay Thirsty, he finished second in the Belmont and went on to win the Jim Dandy and Traverse. He then went on to be nosed out for second in the Jockey Club Gold Cup by Drosselmeyer the eventual BCC winner. He got 4 votes. Neither Shackleford nor Stay Thirsty connections’ would have wasted the time sending them to contest the Iowa Derby against the like of Marco’s Fling and Irish Lion. To be champion you have to beat the best. He did not.  

Why was Caleb’s Posse kept out of the top races for 3YO? The colt you think should be champion 3YO romped in the $150,000 Amsterdam. He comprehensively defeated THS in that race. Three weeks later the $1M PA Derby was on the slate. He did not consider this race as the possible starters were likely to be the Belmont winner and Haskell 3rd place finisher Ruler On Ice; The Wood and Jim Dandy runner ups and THS who was coming of a 10L romp in an Awl/OC. THS went on to set a stakes record for the PA Derby.  Consider the following, Uncle Mo. Stay Thirsty and THS could have entered the Dirt Mile. They chose the BCC. The connections of the Caleb’s Posse would not enter their champion caliber colt in the BCC at gun point. I specified that if Caleb’s Posse secured the eclipse award for Champion 3YO it would be a disgrace.  How he got 111 voted will remain a mystery.

Coldfacts 18 Jan 2012 11:04 PM

Riva Ridge as a 4 year old won a few minor races and that was it.  Racing in the early 70's was very average until the later 70's.  I made the comment because I see 2012 being a lot like 1973 when a 3 year old did well because the older horses were weak.  Union Rags may benefit with a weak older field.

Draynay 19 Jan 2012 3:39 AM

Eclipse Awards are not popularity contests - it is to determine who the had the best overall year in each category.  For those who think AK deserved it, you're dead wrong.  So if you're saying that because AK won the Derby he gets top billing than you're probably the people who think the Euro horses - off of one victory on US soil - should be crowned the US champ.  How stupid can you be?  Do you think if a US based horse won ONE race in France/UK/Ireland that they automatically deserve the Cartier Award?  Stop kidding yourselves about being knowledgeable about horse racing.  Although your responses here are good to laugh at.  Caleb's Posse had a better year AND actually showed up to race the entire 12 months AND beat older horses in the Dirt Mile.  I guess you need to be a filly/mare to have that type of resume to get any recognition.

AJRNova 19 Jan 2012 8:36 AM

AJRNova. Your first sentence made me chuckle. If the Eclipse awards weren't a  popularity contest, then how the hell did Zenyatta beat Blame?? It sure wasn't on the track...

Billy's Empire 19 Jan 2012 9:42 AM

Really Draynay?  Really?

2:24 19 Jan 2012 10:16 AM

AJRNova

You wrote.

“How stupid can you be?  Do you think if a US based horse won ONE race in France/UK/Ireland that they automatically deserve the Cartier Award?  Stop kidding yourselves about being knowledgeable about horse racing”.

What do you mean by “ the Cartier Award”? The award for the European Horse of the Year?

Your words apply to you.

Animal Kingdom was VOTED top 3yo male. He won more than one race. His award is not the equivalent of the Cartier Award for Horse of the Year.

The first mark of an educated writer is that he makes clear how he is using terms. Go back to school.

JerseyBoy 19 Jan 2012 10:32 AM

All the sturm und drang over Caleb's Posse not winning champion 3 YO makes no sense to me at all.

The reason the thoroughbred was created, was not to create a leggy sprinter, but to create a horse that could carry speed over a few miles--without that, it serves no purpose.  True stamina already belongs to the Arabian breed (which can run for miles and for days on end) and true speed already belongs to the American Quarter Horse (the fastest horse in the world) and true athleticism already belongs to the warmbloods.  The thoroughbred's claim to fame was its unique ability to be fast, truly fast, over a distance that before cars was actually quite considerable (bear in mind that 1 1/4 miles used to be the short end of their range).

The challenge of the 3 YO season has always been to determine which horses can get the classic distance--which ones show that they are truly breed thoroughly.  Period.  We do not argue and speculate over which 3 YOs will be able to succeed at 6-8 furlongs and in one turn races--most can and most do.  

In fact, any of 2011's 3 YO's could have opted to follow Caleb's Posse's path of least difficulty--and had they done so, arguably, we wouldn't even be talking about Caleb's Posse at all, but horses like Dialed In (who really seemed to be a superb one turn closer).  But Caleb's peers didn't take the easy road, and we never got to see if they were better than he at his preferred distances.  

Consider all the promising 3 YOs that tried the Derby, but were unsuited for it, either due to fitness or distance limitations or bad luck, whose 3 YO seasons (and possibly careers) were ended by that attempt.  To have rewarded Caleb's Posse's connections for taking the path of least resistance, would have been the most unforgivable insult to horses like Mucho Macho Man, Nehro, Animal Kingdom, Dialed In, Soldat, the Factor, and all the others who stepped up, took the test, and suffered the consequences.

But it really would have insulted the 3 YO iron horse--Shackelford, who would have had 3 grade one wins at classic distances but for a total of 10 measly inches; he raced from January to November, without injury, also beat older horses in the BC mile, ran his heart out in every race, and beat Caleb's Posse easily at two turns.  

We usually wait until the 4 YO season to sort out the less than classic-distance standouts of any give crop. And to me this support for Caleb's Posse is the canary in the coal mine, alerting us to the fact that we have truly given up on the breed in this country.  A great and noble heritage is almost dead here--think of the effect on breeding and racing choices in the future had a one turn sprinter won champion 3 YO...it is unlikely we will ever see another TC winner again, but had that happened I guarantee we would have never seen one again.

Lastly, it would be funny if it wasn't so galling that all of a sudden the BC dirt mile--a race that you, Crist, Watchmaker, Beyer, Hasken, the Left at the Gate blogger, and just about everyone else, said was a race so unworthy that it was better for Uncle Mo to try and to flop in the BCC, than to try and to win in the BC Dirt mile--is now on par, or even more important, than the KY derby.  If the BC dirt mile was a joke for Uncle Mo, it was a joke for Caleb's Posse too.  As for the King's Bishop--when has a 7 furlong race ever been on par with a route? And when does beating a horse of questionable fitness and health, who though a champion at 2, was a noneity at 3, merit the same consideration as winning the most important, and most difficult race in this country?  Caleb's Posse could have run the BC Sprint--had he won it, he would have won his eclipse, had he lost it, he would have been exposed just like Mo.  But as per usual, his connections made the prudent choice, they put him in the race he had the best shot of winning.  I do not fault them for that--it is sound and wise management of their charge.  But I do fault those who think that doing so merits an Eclipse, who are gnashing their teeth in angst and rage that he did not get one.  If that is the case, then Rapid Redux should have won HOTY and Older Male.

I understand being upset when a horse you like doesn't get the recognition to think it deserves, but the Eclipse awards (however silly) unfortunately have real consequences--horses that win one, and especially stallions that win one, have a profound effects on the breeding choices and racing choices in this country. We do not need more 3yos who can't even get a 2 turn mile. We just don't.

papillon 19 Jan 2012 11:47 AM

And that's why most of the Turf writers know as much or little,as the folks who pick horses because of the names or the pretty colors of the silks..

Some of the votes made no sense at all!

Speaking of SOY of the year.. Someone had to win it by default,I guess.

Carlos in Cali 19 Jan 2012 11:57 AM

Coldfacts,

Many thanks for the info on Russian Greek. He should make easy work of the El Camino Real (G3)--unless they take the Animal Kingdom route and go for the Spiral (also G3). Either way, assuming he makes it this far, I expect his last start to be the Blue Grass, for obvious reasons. Surely Hollendorfer won't run him on the Santa Anita superspeedway, not with that running style.

While I'm off chasing under-hyped Derby contenders...Any idea on what happened to In The Beat? I know he was in that allowance vs. Discreet Dancer, but he was so far back the entire way that I never saw him on the screen! (and I've watched the replay 3,4 times.) As it's already been pointed out, even making up 2-3 lengths at Gulfstream appears to be difficult for the closers; sometimes Gulfstream makes the old Keeneland look tame by comparison, so maybe ITB never had a chance. Or was he just outclassed?

Age of Reason 19 Jan 2012 12:17 PM

papillon- nice post.  I wish people would realize what breeding for speed has done to the American thoroughbred.  Maybe we need to adopt categories, as Europe has, and then we can have many top horses in each age group.

Carlos- yes, somebody had to back into the award.  A non-threatening 4th doesn't inspire me as it has others.  She backed into it, jmho.  Would rather have seen Cape Blanco or Acclimation.  But U knew it wouldn't happen.

Billy- at least Zenyatta made her presence felt in the race.  Can't be said for HDG.  

Footlick 19 Jan 2012 1:21 PM

Draynay, please don't tell me you're comparing Union Rags to Secretariat. Not every promising 2 year old is gonna a legend you know. I made plenty money betting against your Triple Crown lock Uncle Mo last year and I plan on doing the same this year. Keep your picks (tosses) coming!

Stevebiscuit 19 Jan 2012 2:06 PM

papillion,

The Europeans have no problem with a miler (Frankel) that's never been around two turns being HOTY and #1 in the world, and no racing tradition values stamina more than the Euros.  Caleb's Posse was the best 3YO miler in America and had the most successful all-season campaign among his age group last season. He was far more impressive in his performances at Grade One level than any other 3YO.  Forget all the crap about why his victories over Uncle Mo, To Honor and Serve, Shackleford and older horses were not genuine and tell me if and why American standards are superior to the Europeans? Your statement, which I quote: "the Eclipse awards (however silly) unfortunately have real consequences--horses that win one, and especially stallions that win one, have a profound effects on the breeding choices and racing choices in this country" shows a misunderstanding of the purpose of the Eclipse Awards. They are intended to reward the best overall performers of the season, not promote breeding.  According to your view of the purpose of the Eclipse awards, Blame should have been HOTY last year (for the records, I thought that both he and "Big Z" deserved it last year).

Tell me who gets it right, the Europeans or us North Americans.

Ranagulzion 19 Jan 2012 2:17 PM

Jersey Boy - AK won two "important" races - that one in Turfway really jumps out as a stellar race so I should have remebered it.  Touche on the Cartier Award.  My point being regarding that was that one race does not make a champion.  Go back to Jersey

Billy's Empire - At least Zenyatta raced an entire year to have people judge that she was or was not better.

AJRNova 19 Jan 2012 2:38 PM

Billy,

If Zenyatta would've finished a non-threatening 4th like HDG she wouldn't be a HOY,trust me.

Carlos in Cali 19 Jan 2012 4:21 PM

Draynay, how old were you in 1973? Six Hall of Famers were 3-year-olds that year. Please talk about something you know. Oh, well, never mind, that would limit you to Division 3 NE Pennsylvania football in 1998. Period.

steve from st louis 19 Jan 2012 5:01 PM

Sorry, I was incorrect in above post--only five foals of 1970 were Hall of Famers: Ancient Title, Dahlia, Forego, Desert Vixen and some big copper stud with three white stockings.

steve from st louis 19 Jan 2012 5:18 PM

I enjoyed watching the awards, altho a couple of recipients' idea of 1 minute was sort of odd. I was delighted to my core to see Fox Hill and Team Jones rewarded by Havre de Grace as Horse of the Year; if ever an award was earned in blood, sweat and tears it was this one - a wonderful thing in the light of the unconscionable and heartbreaking events of a couple of years back. Thank God they all had the courage and the dedication to come back and try again. Congratulations from my heart to all of you who worked so hard and were finally so aptly rewarded.

If there was a disappointment however, it was that 3-year old colt seems to have been in recognition of what a horse MIGHT have done if he'd had a whole season. Maybe Animal Kingdom would have deserved the honor; as it stands, I feel it was awarded based on potential performance rather than actual performance. I think several others, most notably Caleb's Posse and even Shackleford, showed more of what they are simply because they were out there running. Oh well, who ever said life was perfect ...

Convene 19 Jan 2012 6:51 PM

Most of the people voting for the Acadamy Awards admit to never seeing the movie.  

Householder 19 Jan 2012 7:21 PM

2:24 Really ?  Prove Out ?  A horse who won 2 major races in his entire career and he is a example of a great horse in the early 1970's ?  The horse won 9 of 39 races and he is something to remember ?  He beat a tired Secretariat that had trouble winning on dirt after Belmont big deal.

Draynay 19 Jan 2012 7:21 PM

It is too bad (not to take anything away from Mott, Baffert) or anyone that Aidan O' Brien didn't even get a nomination for Champion Trainer.

In 2011, he sent over 13 horses for grade ones and one for a grade two event.. in which five of those horses won seven grade ones and that included sending Cape Blanco to and from the US three times and he had two Breeders Cup winners, not the Classic or Ladies Classic.

Again I am not saying any of the nominateds were not deserving because they were, I was really happy for the success that O'Brien had in the US and hopes that he sends another cavalry here for 2012!

And here comes the Spring! Seeing first foal notifications for Super Saver, Lookin at Lucky, Desert Party, The Pamplemousse, sigh it's the best time of the year!

Can't wait for the Sunshine Millions! With Awesome Feather, Mucho Macho Man, Apriority and Musical Romance... cannot wait!

Really like Sweet Nothings for the Cal Oaks

Crossing fingers for Believe You Can in the Silverbulletday

and either Mr. Bowling, Seven Lively Sins, Shared Property or Hero of Order in the Lecomte

Amazombie of course if he runs this weekend! Cannot wait for the weekend!

Tiz Herself 19 Jan 2012 7:48 PM

Hello everyone Im new to the sport and I gotta tell you that show the eclipse awards was so boring I changed the channel.But I like betting on the horses and look forward to the Kentucky Derby.Does anyone know when the nominations come out?I have a friend that goups the horses by their breeding into groups of the sires that have accounted for the most winners.He told me that for the most part their were three stallions going back I dont remember how many generations that have sired the majority of Kentucky Derby winners.If you have any thing else about this please reply to my post.

NASCAR PRO 19 Jan 2012 8:09 PM

Steve, I went to my first Derby in 1969 and followed racing ever since.  I stand by my statement that this year is shaping up to look like 1973.  I see a weak older horse field much like there was in 1973.  I believe Union Rags can take advantage of this and have a break out year many of us have been looking for should he stay healthy.

Draynay 19 Jan 2012 8:25 PM

A couple of the comparisons on this blog are more examples of 50-Cent being compared to Beethoven. But what can I say? In the writers’ minds 50-cent does compose something which can loosely be described as music.

JerseyBoy 19 Jan 2012 8:50 PM

Draynay,

I believe that you are on to something here. This will be a big year in racing and the big horse will be Union Rags.

Coldfacts,

Call me a prophet if you will but I know that I'll be proven right as long as he remains healthy (thats the only caveat I'll put on this prediction).

Ranagulzion 19 Jan 2012 9:09 PM

Tiz Herself, ITA that Aiden O'Brien should have been nominated. He raced here consistently and won enought that he should have been nominated. Still, Baffert should have won.

Paula Higgins 19 Jan 2012 9:20 PM

Whatever else they did right or wrong the two year old categories were perfect.  They voted by the year they were suppossed to vote on. Congrats to Hansen & Aurelia. Saw them at the BC myself and I know they were the best there.

Betty S 19 Jan 2012 11:06 PM

Dray - when did a say Prove Out was an example of a great horse from the 70's.  I simply included him in a list of strong older horses from 1973 in response to your uninformed comment that 1973 had weak older horses.  But since you want to talk about great horses who were older in that crop:

A) Riva Ridge - HOF, ranked 57 in Bloodhorse's top 100 horses of 20th century, won three significant handicap races as a 4 year old

B) Cougar II - HOF, iron horse, won Big Cap plus several other significant races in 1973

C) Kennedy Road - Canadian HOF

D) Key to the Mint - 1972 eclipse award for 3 yr old male; won several races as 4 year old in 1973

These were all great older horses in 1973.  Add in good horses such as Onion, Prove Out, Annihilate Em and you have an extremely strong group of older horses, especially compared to the classes of older horses we see today.

Simply put, you're wrong about 1973 no matter how you choose to phrase it.  On a side note, I do realise that you say some things just to get a rise out of people.  I appreciate the effort and am truly glad you're back.

2:24 20 Jan 2012 9:29 AM

It's a girl!

My broodmare produced my first grand-foal early Thursday morning. Mother and daughter doing fine, baby stood within 5 minutes of birth. Like her mom, she is a dark bay or brown, but unlike mom she has no white at all.

Looking forward to being the breeder of the 2015 Kentucky Oaks winner!<many, many grins>

Pedigree Ann 20 Jan 2012 11:02 AM

Ranagulzion,

Are you sure the statement below should have been directed to me.

Coldfacts,

“Call me a prophet if you will but I know that I'll be proven right as long as he remains healthy (thats the only caveat I'll put on this prediction)”

I do not recall labeling you a prophet.  Your trainer started the Smart Strike colt Spring Hill Farm last Saturday. I suggest you focus on him instead of Union Rags.  Three of Mr. Prospector’s sons have sire derby winners i.e., Our Emblem, Gulch and Fappiano. Smart Strike sired Preakness winners Curlin and lookin At lucky

Spring Hill Farm’s dam Colonial Minstrel shares a pedigree feature that is worth noting. Her pedigree reflects inbreeding to siblings Misty Morn and Mist Flight both being by (Princequillo/Grey Flight) Dams whose pedigree reflect inbreeding to siblings have produced a number of champions. See below:-

Mien dam of Big Brown inbred to siblings Thong and Lt. Stevens both by (Nantallah/Rough Shod)

My Charmer dam of Seattle Slew inbred to siblings Striking &- Busher both by (War Admiral/Baby League)

Won’t Tell You dam of Affirmed inbred to siblings Bull Dog  & Sir Gallahad both by (Teddy/Plucky Liege)

Won’t Tell You dam of Affirmed inbred to siblings Fighting Fox & Gallant Fox  both by (Sir Gallahad/Marguerite)

Legato second dam of Dark Star inbred to siblings Bull Dog - Sir Gallahad both by (Teddy/Plucky Liege)

You never know!

Coldfacts 20 Jan 2012 12:43 PM

Congratulations Pedigree Ann, you are a grandmother!!!

How delightful that your mare had a filly. You mentioned she does not have white,i guess that includes no blaze. Usually i like to use the shape of their blazes to i.d. them in a race because i can never read the numbers on the silks when they are flying. That is why i love Shackleford, he has a real wide blaze and a different way of running.

Anyway, how lucky and nice for you and of course your mare. They are the unsung heroes if i may include my opinion of all of them.

Linda in Texas 20 Jan 2012 12:43 PM

Wow Im relatively new to this sport but I read that two bloggers are already making predictions as to the winner of the Kentucky Derby.I think you two are way too early, and I found out the colt you are picking is Union Rags the early book favorite.When does he run next.I dont think I nned to know too much to figure out that I wouldnt make that bet,theres no value.Everyone knows he is the favorite.

NASCAR PRO 20 Jan 2012 12:48 PM

Draynay:  Two of the minor races Riva Ridge won were the Derby and the Belmont.  Had it not rained on Preakness day, his name would be up next to his stablemate for the Triple Crown.  Was this shoddy research, or did you think we wouldn't remember, while you were busy making your point.  

By the way, at this time last year, Uncle Mo was supposed to be the 2011 savior.  I'm still waiting... Oh wait, he's done...

31-lengths 20 Jan 2012 1:33 PM

NASCAR PRO. WHOA, You mean to tell me that in your sport of nascar racing and using NASCAR PRO as your blog name,that some fans aren't already predicting that one of the following: Jr., Jimmy, Matt, Kevin,Tony,Kyle, Denny or Cal 'might' win the Daytona 500??

Well guess what, folks do the same thing here. Yes, there are some who talk about which horse could possibly take the derby, even now.  

You have a lot to learn. And if you stay with this long enough you will find out. I hope you enjoy it as much as we all do.

First Lesson: The RPM'S are a little different from nascar racing.

Linda in Texas 20 Jan 2012 2:01 PM

Where can I post my "yelling"?

How come Fascinators are no longer acceptable at Royal Ascot? What a rip off.  Kate looked good and if you have to have a hat thing on your head, fascinators are wonderful!

p.s.  I had Animal Kingdom, Hansen and Havre de Grace.

kisses to Ted/Bob and love to the harem: Paula, Linda(s), etc.

Coldfacts: I love the fact that Dark Star made it as a broodmare sire (at least a little bit).  

mz 20 Jan 2012 2:26 PM

Draynay, what's sad is that despite all of your "experience" you display a greater lack of understanding of racing than some people who have only been in the game a couple years. Keep the comments coming though! By the end of 2012(and the world for that matter lol), we'll see who's horse is on top, your Union Rags or my Liaison.

Stevebiscuit 20 Jan 2012 2:37 PM

To the person who claimed the warmbloods have the corner on athleticism over a thoroughbred.  I foxhunted both and give me an off the track t-bred any day of the week to hunt. They are the best, will go all day and do anything you ask.

Couldn't see the Eclipse awards but am sorry that Baffert did not get trainer of the year.  Agree with other posters that criteria for winning trainer needs to be clarified and needs to be more than most money won.

Just like gaining entry to KD needs to be redone to reflect quality of races won over amount of money.  And maybe limit field by either number or minimum requisite of graded wins.  If you don't reach minimum you don't get in even if field is less than 20.

T-bred Fan 20 Jan 2012 3:01 PM

Coldfacts----Um, I'm somewhat confused by your 12:43 P.M. post to Ranag today. Did I not bring up the colt Spring Hill Farm on a previous thread on the afternoon of 1/14, saying he looked "nice"? You replied that his broodmare sire "had a strained relationship with the Triple Crown"; further stated that you had not seen the race in question, that he was not among his trainer's first string, and that he would most likely be a late developer--probably as a 4-year-old. I then posted a link to the race, which was his first ever. So, what has changed since 1/14? Did you actually view the race? You are now directing both Ranag and another poster (Forbidden Apple?) to the Smart Strike colt Spring Hill Farm as a "focus" for the Derby, rather than Union Rags. You are saying that Colonial Minstrel now has a pedigree feature worth noting--was it not present last Saturday? I'm just wondering. I thought SHF looked promising and "nice" last week and said so. Why is he a "focus" for you now, but not then? Really, share your thought process, please. Thanks.  

Karen in Texas 20 Jan 2012 3:38 PM

Karen in Texas

You might be on to something big with that horse Spring Hill Farm.

After your latest post, I looked at the replay. He was visually impressive. He accelerated in the final furlong.

He completed it in 12.09 seconds. I completely missed the race.

Thank you.

JerseyBoy 20 Jan 2012 4:34 PM

Karen in Texas,

Good job holding Coldfact's feet to the fire.

Ranagulzion 20 Jan 2012 5:11 PM

Hello Linda in Texas yes there are those that make those wagers.But you know sonethin I dont do it.Thats why Im surprised that two bloggers on this site,which I thought was more breeding oriented,these two are already touting a colt that I couldnt find out when he races next.I read about where Hansen races but the future book favorite Union Rags,I dunno.Do you know where he races next?hey do you already have your Derby horse.

NASCAR PRO 20 Jan 2012 5:17 PM

Cold facts,

Your argument against Caleb's Posse winning is ridiculous. You are basically saying the 3 year old division has to be won by a horse who specializes in classic distance races. Nonsense. AK was a nice horse for two months, Caleb all year. If you read most post-Eclipse awards commentaries most people think CB got robbed and I am one of them. It was a joke. Maybe you own a piece of the horse,who knows. AK just didn't cut it.

SophieK 20 Jan 2012 5:17 PM

 I've been trying to stay away from the 1973 argument but I can't help myself.  Didn't Riva Ridge set a world record for 1 3/16 miles as a four year old in 1973?  Add Cougar II and company to the mix and I don't agree that it was a bad bunch of older horses that year.

Smoking Baby 20 Jan 2012 5:19 PM

Who do you like in the leconte?

SACK THE SECRATARY 20 Jan 2012 5:48 PM

31 Lengths... if you are going to join the conversation please try to know something about what we are talking about.  In 1973 Riva Ridge was a OLDER horse and not a very good one.  The great Kentucky Derby winner and Belmont winner could only win a couple of MINOR races as a OLDER horse proving the weakness of horses running in the early 1970's.

Draynay 20 Jan 2012 6:43 PM

Liaison ? You can't be serious.  Let me remind you the Kentucky Derby is a 1 1/4.

Draynay 20 Jan 2012 6:53 PM

Paula and others, thanks for sticking up for Blind Luck. I've said all along that there would be no HDG without Blind Luck. The 2 faced each other 5 times, and Blind Luck won/came in ahead of HDG 3 out of those 5. I was sorry to see her retired. I think she still had something more to give. And I think she definitely deserved at least Older Female. She was all heart, that girl!

Big Brown's Buddy 20 Jan 2012 7:03 PM

NASCARPRO,  welcome to the world of Thoroughbred racing!  Glad to have you as a new fan!  Yes, we speculate all year - right now it's the Derby and Triple Crown,  then it will be the Breeder's Cup, and lastly who will win what year end championships!  It's always fun!

Racingfan 20 Jan 2012 7:48 PM

IF ANYONE GIVES A HOOT I AM PERSCRIBING A 10 CENT SUPERFECTA BOX USING FIVE NUMBERS IN THE LECONTE.COST OF BET $12 PROFIT TARGET

$36>

ZORRO 20 Jan 2012 7:52 PM

I would call the 1973 "also rans" a pretty weak group.  I mean Sham only ran a 1:59 4/5 in the Derby closing in under 24 seconds (how many have closed quicker?) with 2 broken teeth left at the starting gate.  I think he also shipped to the hollowed grounds of New York and won some minor Derby prep there in addition to something called the Santa Anita Derby.   Second in the Derby, second in the Preakness...I mean this happens all the time right?  Very weak indeed.  

Householder 20 Jan 2012 8:23 PM

Jersey Boy and Ranagulzion----Thanks, guys. It's nice to know one doesn't need a freakin' spreadsheet to observe a horse with one's own eyes! I had the audio low while HRTV showed the race, but noticed George Bolton's silks and began paying attention. It looked like he (SHF) controlled the pace pretty much and then sprinted to the wire. I intend to follow his progress, but have no idea if he's pointed to the TC. He was apparently the last foal named by Mr. Evans before his death, and was part of the dispersal sale of Spring Hill Farm.

Karen in Texas 20 Jan 2012 8:28 PM

Well I guess we all know where Dray went for all those months.  Back to 1973 in his hot tub time machine.

Householder 20 Jan 2012 8:29 PM

Riva Ridge won 5 of 9 as a 4 yr old and set 4 track records, one of which was a world record at the time.

Footlick 20 Jan 2012 9:43 PM

Draynay, let me remind you that your Triple Crown lock (Uncle Mo) was also by Indian Charlie. The difference is that Liaison has Victory Gallop on his dam side, which should help his endurance. He has the perfect running style for a race like the Derby and in the hands of America's greatest trainer, Bob Baffert, he has the best shot at this point at winning the Kentucky Derby. Judging 3 year olds based on their early 2 year old form is for amateurs. Draynay's infatuation with Uncle Mo is a prime example of that.

Stevebiscuit 20 Jan 2012 9:58 PM

Karen in Texas,

I wish to endorse the views of Jersey Boy and Coldfacts in relation to the potential of the "Todd squad" inmate, Spring Hill Farm. This colt is regally bred to relish every leg of the Triple Crown and could turn out to be Todd Pletcher's ace if Discreet Dancer shows stamina limitations.  I'll be putting Spring Hill Farm on my watch list even though I think that the Raise a Native line colts will be shut out of the Kentucky Derby winners circle again this year in keeping with historical trends. Being a May foal out of a Pleasant Colony mare he should be really good later in the year and as a 4YO (I concur with my pal Coldfacts on this point) therefore I hope that he is not forced to do too much too soon.

Ranagulzion 20 Jan 2012 10:06 PM

SophieK,

Are you new to the Mr. Shandler’s blog? I probably have not been paying attention as I do not recall ever seeing a post from you.  Welcome to the roster of contributors who take pleasure in attacking me. It appears I have to be very careful with my responses as you appear to be a very feisty.

“Your argument against Caleb's Posse winning is ridiculous”

Your disagreement with the points I have advanced against Caleb's Posse selection as Champion 3YO does not make them ridiculous. What makes the points you have advances in support of Caleb’s Posse meaningful? I am not the only contributor that is of the opinion that Caleb's Posse did not deserve the eclipse award for champion 3YO. Why have you chosen to attack me? Could it be the fact that my case was the most detailed and convincing? Do you believe that a colt that never participated in any of the top races for 3YO is deserving of being crowned champion 3YO ahead of those that did? Tiznow was voted champion 3YO and like Caleb's Posse did not participate in any of the top races for 3YO. However, he won major races against older horses including the top race in the US the Breeders' Cup Classic.

“You are basically saying the 3 year old division has to be won by a horse that specializes in classic distance races”. Nonsense!

Assuming your interpretation above is correct, your disagreement does not make this assertion nonsense.  Nine of the last 10 winner of the eclipse award for champion 3YO participated in a number of top 3YO races. Tiznow was the only exception. Horses that cannot perform effectively at the distances of the top 3YO races do have the opportunity to secure the eclipse award for Champion 3YO Sprinter. Caleb's Posse was also nominated for this category. The ultimate test for 3YO is the Triple Crown. Eleven horses have successfully completed the TC. Are you suggesting that the distance of the respective races should be shortened? You not only feel empowered to label comments ridiculous and conclusion nonsense, but also to impose your own evaluation parameters for a champion.

“ AK was a nice horse for two months, Caleb all year”

Shackleford performed all year as well. He contested 7 G1 races in comparison to Caleb’ Posse’s 3. He won a Triple Crown race and defeated Caleb’s Posse in the Indiana Derby. He had the most demanding body of work and with better racing luck we would not be having this exchange. He defeated the Kentucky Derby and Belmont Stakes winners and for his enormous effort he got 12 votes.

“If you read most post-Eclipse awards commentaries most people think CB got robbed and I am one of them. It was a joke!”

It is indeed unfortunate that many including yourself are driven by emotions. I suggest you embark on a change of policy and be guided by the cold facts. A colt that was not good enough to qualify for the Derby or Preakness; choose not to enter the Belmont, Haskell, Jim Dandy and Travers can in no way be considered a champion of the 3YO division. Those are cold facts as oppose to emotions.

“Maybe you own a piece of the horse, who knows. AK just didn't cut it.”

For the records I selected Shackleford for the eclipse award. I do not own a piece of AK and was not supporting him. In you quest to attack you missed this pertinent point. I am prepared to engage in exchanges with all contributors with the exception of Mr. More Stupider. However, I find offensive contributors who feel they are at liberty to express their disagreements in a disrespectful manner. One Love!

Coldfacts 20 Jan 2012 10:12 PM

SophieK,

Are you new to the Mr. Shandler’s blog? I probably have not been paying attention as I do not recall ever seeing a post from you.  Welcome to the roster of contributors who take pleasure in attacking me. It appears I have to be very careful with my responses as you appear to be a very feisty.

“Your argument against Caleb's Posse winning is ridiculous”

Your disagreement with the points I have advanced against Caleb's Posse selection as Champion 3YO does not make them ridiculous. What makes the points you have advances in support of Caleb’s Posse meaningful? I am not the only contributor that is of the opinion that Caleb's Posse did not deserve the eclipse award for champion 3YO. Why have you chosen to attack me? Could it be the fact that my case was the most detailed and convincing? Do you believe that a colt that never participated in any of the top races for 3YO is deserving of being crowned champion 3YO ahead of those that did? Tiznow was voted champion 3YO and like Caleb's Posse did not participate in any of the top races for 3YO. However, he won major races against older horses including the top race in the US the Breeders' Cup Classic.

“You are basically saying the 3 year old division has to be won by a horse that specializes in classic distance races”. Nonsense!

Assuming your interpretation above is correct, your disagreement does not make this assertion nonsense.  Nine of the last 10 winner of the eclipse award for champion 3YO participated in a number of top 3YO races. Tiznow was the only exception. Horses that cannot perform effectively at the distances of the top 3YO races do have the opportunity to secure the eclipse award for Champion 3YO Sprinter. Caleb's Posse was also nominated for this category. The ultimate test for 3YO is the Triple Crown. Eleven horses have successfully completed the TC. Are you suggesting that the distance of the respective races should be shortened? You not only feel empowered to label comments ridiculous and conclusion nonsense, but also to impose your own evaluation parameters for a champion.

“ AK was a nice horse for two months, Caleb all year”

Shackleford performed all year as well. He contested 7 G1 races in comparison to Caleb’ Posse’s 3. He won a Triple Crown race and defeated Caleb’s Posse in the Indiana Derby. He had the most demanding body of work and with better racing luck we would not be having this exchange. He defeated the Kentucky Derby and Belmont Stakes winners and for his enormous effort he got 12 votes.

“If you read most post-Eclipse awards commentaries most people think CB got robbed and I am one of them. It was a joke!”

It is indeed unfortunate that many including yourself are driven by emotions. I suggest you embark on a change of policy and be guided by the cold facts. A colt that was not good enough to qualify for the Derby or Preakness; choose not to enter the Belmont, Haskell, Jim Dandy and Travers can in no way be considered a champion of the 3YO division. Those are cold facts as oppose to emotions.

“Maybe you own a piece of the horse, who knows. AK just didn't cut it.”

For the records I selected Shackleford for the eclipse award. I do not own a piece of AK and was not supporting him. In you quest to attack you missed this pertinent point. I am prepared to engage in exchanges with all contributors with the exception of Mr. More Stupider. However, I find offensive contributors who feel they are at liberty to express their disagreements in a disrespectful manner. One Love!

Coldfacts 20 Jan 2012 10:13 PM

Smoking Baby,

Yes, Riva Ridge set a world record at age 4, winning the Brooklyn Handicap in 1:52 2/5 when it was run at 1 3/16 miles (still the world record for dirt). The following year (as a 4-year-old), Forego would run the Brooklyn two second slower.

Also at age four Riva Ridge equaled the track record at Suffolk Downs when winning the MassCap in 1:48.2.

In the 1973 Marlboro Cup, though he finished second, Riva Ridge bettered the world record for 1 1/8.

That year he also set the track record at Aqueduct when he won the Stuyvesant Handicap in 1:47 flat under 130 pounds (still a track record).

Yeah, he wasn't much of an older horse.

Tiznowbaby 20 Jan 2012 10:15 PM

NASCARPRO-I am not a pro here at all I just love the horses and the races, have all my life. And in answer to your question, no it is a bit premature for me to zero in on "the one" that i like for the Kentucky Derby. I just hope they stay sound, as it is a long way to May.

There are many fans of racing who post here and from whom you will learn much. There are handicappers,

and that sounds like your prime interest. If you have TVG, HRTV or sign up for DRF, you will find those and of course, Bloodhorse.com all include horse racing information on upcoming races and interesting articles.

Thursday thru Sundays HRTV shows live horse racing from Delta Downs, The Fair Grounds, Aqueduct in New York, Calder, Gulf Stream in Florida, Laurel in Maryland, Golden Gate in California and Santa Anita in California and many more race tracks.

If you enter into the search window on Bloodhorse.com located at the top right what you are looking for, it will bring up subjects you are looking for, like races, trainers, horses, etc.and videos of races which i watch from my computer.

Are you sure you are not KY VET in

disguise??  Just kidding. I guess you have not met him yet.

Big Brown's Buddy, totally am with you and Paula as i mentioned Blind Luck right after the Eclipse Awards. There was no reason she should not have been given older female. The award goes to all the horses for their actions on the racetrack within the year. Not for what happened to another horse 3 years ago as much as i loved Eight Belles and was devastated when she broke down. I still have her head shot on my sign in page so i see her photo every morning when i turn on my computer and every evening when i turn it off. She also had a huge heart to please.

Yes, Blind Luck does have a big heart also and i will miss seeing her. Just like i miss all who retire. I am so glad she doesn't know she didn't get an award.

And how is Big Brown Big Brown's Buddy?? Miss him too.

Linda in Texas 20 Jan 2012 10:33 PM

MZ - Don't throw your Fascinators

away just yet, you will be able to wear them in 'the grandstand' just not in the Royal Ascot Enclosure!

It would really be interesting to know what in the world is wrong

with them. At least with a woman wearing one of those gives the person behind them a better chance of seeing around them instead of a big obnoxious full brimmed chapeaux.

Thanks Jason.

Linda in Texas 20 Jan 2012 10:43 PM

kisses to Ted/Bob and love to the harem: Paula, Linda(s), etc.

~mz

Did someone mention Couger II????

Nascar Pro, welcome.  Open up a Busch Light and remember.... it ain't racin' if you don't have mud in your beer.

Bob from Boston 20 Jan 2012 10:44 PM

mz, back at you. You are numero uno in Ted/Bob's Harem fyi. Hope you are having a nice winter in beautiful Canada (We went there on our honeymoon).

Congrats to Pedigree Ann on the new baby in the family. Keep us posted.

Big Brown's Buddy, I wa more than happy to stick up for Blind Luck. Both girls were special but I always thought Blind Luck was the superior of the two. By the way, I was a major fan of Big Brown too. Nice to see I wasn't alone.

SophieK right you are about Caleb's Posse and distance not necessarily being the determining factor for awards. I think in this case Caleb's Posse's consistant winning trumped distance. If you had a horse consistently winning at the longer distances than we could have a different conversation. But not this time. He should have won it imo. I am not happy he came away with nothing.

Paula Higgins 20 Jan 2012 10:47 PM

A few more 1973 horses that seemed to accomplish things:  Big Spruce, Tentam, King's Bishop, True Knight and the sadly named Quack (a son of T.V.Lark).

NASCAR PRO:  almost every foal born in 2009 was nominated for the Derby.  As more fees become due, fewer horses are left.  The nearer it gets to May, fewer and fewer are left, many really hot prospects dropping out because of injuries.  There will be a cut-off based on amount of earnings.  (Some horses that seem likely just won't have enough earnings.)  But the final list of 20 won't actually be known until they load the gate.  This year there will definitely be 20 because there will be several 'supplemental' entries in case somebody has to be scratched at the very last minute.  

There is no guarantee that either Hansen or Union Rags will run.  People here just like to argue whenever possible.

Pedigree Ann:  Congratulation!  Best of luck to baby and Mama and keep us posted.  Please give her a good name (I still cringe at Uncle Mo).

Jean in Chicago 20 Jan 2012 10:48 PM

Draynay:

Go check out Steve Haskin's blog on Prove Out.  Its in the archives.  I think it was sometime last year.

Jean in Chicago 20 Jan 2012 10:53 PM

Riva Ridge also carried 127 in the Marlboro Cup to Secretariat's 124, and both beat the world record for 9 furlongs in that race.  But, as Dray says, "he was an OLDER horse and not a very good one".  He won 5 races and was second twice out of 9 races that year.  He set 4 track records, one which was a world record for 9.5 furlongs, and I believe it still is the world record for that distance.  I hope we are blessed with an older horse as "bad" as Riva Ridge was at 4.

Footlick 20 Jan 2012 11:58 PM

 I'm with Draynay (did I actually just write that?).  I think Liaison is a stretch for the Derby.  Nice colt though no doubt.  I just don't see him as a Derby horse (yet).

Smoking Baby 21 Jan 2012 9:49 AM

In 1973, Riva Ridge won the G1 Brooklyn H, then part of the Handicap Triple Crown (NWR, under 127lbs); the G2 Mass 'Cap (NTR); and the G2 Stuyvesant, NTR at Aqueduct under top weight of 130 lbs, defeating G2 winner True Knight (won the Seminole, the Hialeah prep for the G1 Widener: equivalent to the Donn H), who would go on to win the G1 Suburban the following year. Not minor events in the context of the time. Won 5 of 9 races, and was second to Secretariat in the inaugural Marlboro Cup. Not too shabby. Wins like this would have him in the running for HotY these days. As it was, he did get the Eclipse statue for top older horse.

Pedigree Ann 21 Jan 2012 9:56 AM

I cannot view any horse-racing channels on Kabletown (TWC) in my area (they are not even OFFERED), so I had to watch it on DRF. The audio was over-driven & distorted for most of the time, then barely there at all. If you can't produce an awards show that is broadcast worthy, then don't broadcast it. The comments tweeted from the side of the broadcast board were childish & insulting, so I didn't pay any attention to them. I love horse-racing, but this show lacked the professionalism it deserved.

NancyA 21 Jan 2012 10:44 AM

Jason  ... I just want to say that you were *very* kind to Jeannine Edwards and leave it at that. You're a bigger man than than I.

As far as the awards, I was 'ok' with most of it. The one that really bothers me was Hansen over Union Rags because the voters did not apply the same reasoning that they used to give Zenyatta her HOY Eclipse award. If you recall, they said that her defeat in her second BC Classic proved her greatness more than the majority of her narrow victories over overmatched rivals because she overcame considerable adversity and would have won in another jump. I agreed with them. That race put a very fine point on the greatness of Zenyatta even though she lost. Is that not exactly what happened to Union Rags? Overcame a distinctly troubled trip and would have won in another jump?

Oddly, Michael Matz did not seem to be pressing the case for his horse in an interview that I saw in which he said that if the voters use the Breeders Cup race as the deciding factor then the award goes to Hansen. Huh? Did he watch the race?

I keep hearing what an outstanding horseman Matz is. If true, than I know he knows better than that. He might be one of those people that is so understated that they shoot their own foot off. If that is the case, it is time to grow up. I would have recalled for the press why Zenyatta was given the award in spite of a BC loss; overcoming adversity to the degree that she did only to suffer a narrow loss to a horse that had a perfect trip underlined her greatness. I would have said that is an app description of Union Rags' BC race and that same reasoning should be applied to it. I would have said that if I had to choose a horse to buy or breed to based on that one race it would be Union Rags because he showed more. A lot more. And I do like Hansen. A lot.

Speaking of Matz, and his reputation for being such a great horseman, why can't he get Union Rags to run straight down the stretch? Does he think he will grow out of it on his own? I gotta believe that Todd Pletcher and Bob Baffert and Bill Mott and a host of others could get him to run straight. If I were his owner, he better run straight in his next race, win or lose, or the horse would go home with a different trainer that same day.

Mary in VT 21 Jan 2012 11:29 AM

Dray

I hope you didn’t quit your day job.  Your calling Riva Ridge not very good as a four year old is Dumb Off.  In 1973 RR set or tied four track records.  He started his year off with a 6F allowance score in 1.08.4.  He tied the track record in winning the Mass Cap of 1.48.1 for 9F, running the distance 2/5ths faster than Cigar in his 16 race win streak.  In his next race he set the 1 3/16 mile world’s record on dirt when he won the Brooklyn Handicap, a world record he now shares with Farma Way that still stands, and he did it while carrying 127 lbs.  When he ran in the Marlboro Inv. he finished second to Secretariat’s 1.45.2, then the world’s record on dirt, and was individually timed in the race in 1.46 for the 9F while carrying 127 lbs (3 more than Secretariat).  In his next race the Stuyvesant he set the 9F track record at Aqueduct of 1.47 while carrying 130 lbs.

Riva Ridge wasn’t very good in 1973?  Duh……….Your posts are beginning to rival Sylvestor and Afleetalexforever’s as the most uninformed on the blog.

Stick to something you know Dray, like touting Kentucky Derby losers.

LAZMANNICK 21 Jan 2012 1:33 PM

He won the mighty Brooklyn Handicap ?  Wow who did he beat some mighty New York breds on souped up tracks in 1973.  Seems there were plenty of track records set in 1973.  Gee I wonder why that was? I guess in 1973 horses were just suddenly faster than ever before right?  Or is it possible tracks were setting up tracks fast to set records and make headlines ?  Riva Ridge won 2 minor races as a 4 year old and I could care less if he set a track record while winning some meaningless race. Care to guess how many races Riva lost as a 4 year old ????

Draynay 21 Jan 2012 2:25 PM

For all you Riva Ridge fans I have posted all of his G1 wins below as a 4 year old.  Whoops I'm sorry that's right the Belmont and Kentucky Derby winner didn't win a single one as a 4 year old did he.

Draynay 21 Jan 2012 2:30 PM

NASCAR PRO----Somewhere above I believe you asked about Union Rags' next start. I think it's listed as the Fountain of Youth (at Gulfstream). Many of the colts on the TC trail will ultimately drop out due to some form of attrition, but there is a site called Horse Racing Nation that lists literally hundreds of potential starters. It is very easy to navigate and fan-friendly. If you go there and click on the Kentucky Derby 2012 heading, you will find a ranking list of the horses with their next start if it has been announced.

Karen in Texas 21 Jan 2012 2:52 PM

Are all the arguements on this blog from 50 years ago?Im probably not going to get the type of interchange of information that I thought I would.Its 2012,hello who do you like in the Leconte TODAY

ZORRO 21 Jan 2012 4:18 PM

Forbidden Apple,

Do you have Tiger Walk on your watch list? If not I think he merits watching. He just came to my attention. His record reflects: (starts 4-2-0-0). His first two starts were at Saratoga where he finished 4th & 10th. He broke his maiden a Laurel Park in an 8F MSW on turf. He followed up that victory with a win in an 8F Awl/OC on dirt. I consider his dirt victory very impressive as he was timed in 1:37.78 for the mile. That’s a very good time for the Laurel strip. He is a handsome son of Tale of The Cat out of an unraced Kris S mare. He has a beautiful action and appear to have an abundance of stamina.

His dam sire Kris S sired five Breeders Cup winners but is probably best known for being the dam sire of two times Breeder Cup winner Zenyuatta.  He was also dam sire of Breeder Cup winner War Chant. Kris S son Arch was dam sire of BCJ winner Uncle Mo and sire of BCC winner Blame. In spite of Kris S’s success in the Breeder Cup he is MIA on both sides of the Triple Crown chart.

I am of the opinion that a Kris S broodmare will eventually produce a Derby winner and consequently I am on the lookout. Could this colt be the one? Well you know my views of unraced mares. An unraced Kris S mare is a premium. Tiger Walk second dam was sired by Danzig who was dam sire of the 2000 Derby winner Fusaichi Pegasus. His third dam was sired by His Majesty who was dam sire of Secretariat’s best son and Preakness and Belmont winner Risen Star. Tiger Walk has and outstanding line up dam sires in his pedigree.

What are the prospects of Tale Of The Cat siring a derby winner? They are good! Who is Lion Heart? Runner up in the Kentucky Derby (G1,10F), Blue Grass S.(G1,9F  and winner of the Haskell Invitational. Who is Gio Ponti? Multiple G1 winner that earned $6M in purses. Lion Heart was produced from a Mr. Leader broodmare. Mr. Leader was a son of Hail To Reason. Yes, the same Hail To Reason who is the sires of Roberto the sire of Kris S. Tiger Walk is therefore bred along the same cross as Derby runner up Lion Heart. However, Kris S is a significantly better broodmare sire than Mr. Leader.

I am of the opinion that this colt has all the ingredients to be a Derby winner. His two victories were achieve easily and are very encouraging. He is a probable for the Holy Bull and I hope he is entered as it will provide an opportunity to further evaluate him. I think he is a serious race horse but I could be proven wrong.

Coldfacts 21 Jan 2012 5:08 PM

Ty for the website Karen In Texas,and thanks to your neighbor Linda in Texas for the info.Bob and Jean TY for the welcome  hope I didnt leave any one out.I will be honest with you I have been reading this blog for awhile before I posted(no internet connection)I believe KY Vet is actually Jason Shandler the blogmaster.Another observation I have is that Draynay seems to post on here so that others can poke fun at his posts(nothing against Draynay)

NASCAR PRO 21 Jan 2012 7:23 PM

@Linda in TX - my buddy BB is doing well. He topped the FTK sale in 2011 for freshmen sires, and several of his foals (2 colts and one filly that I know of) sold for 6 figures. Man,I miss his personality!

@Paula Higgins - glad to see * I * am not alone in having been a Big Brown fan! Always thought he was underrated by everyone in "the biz". Would have been interesting to see how far he would have gone were it not for that dastardly foot problem.

Big Brown's Buddy 21 Jan 2012 7:29 PM

Racing Fan sorry for the slight Thanx for the welcome.I like playing the trainers that have already done well in the stakes race in question.Today in the Leconte Larry Jones won it for the 3rd time.The trainer of the 2nd place finisher Assmussen and Amoss trainer of 3rd place finisher have also won it twice before.I am new but I have learned a lot from a friend of mine who post on this site.The numbers were 4-2-11.

NASCAR PRO 21 Jan 2012 7:52 PM

To everyone who is trying to convince Draynay of his lack of perspective, especially LAZMANNICK and Footlick with your fact-filled posts re: Riva Ridge:

 Some people cannot be convinced even when presented with the facts; they will go the other way as Draynay just did trying to rationalize his faulty opinions with speculative claims of tracks posssibly souping up their dirt to

produce faster times 39 years ago.  Dray's sticking to his opinion no matter what anyone says just like the Rachel hater Chucky when presented with her 3 y.o. season.  Riva Ridge(1973) and Rachel Alexandra (2009) can have outstanding years as we have seen but all their detractors have to say is "What's the big deal, they ran against weak fields".

2:24: I'm sure you recall that it was about this time last year we went through this same one-sided arguement when Dray started declaring UM's 2 y.o. year as better than Secretariat's, which got us into this same discussion.  By the way are you going to the Tampa Bay Derby? I'm trying to get down there again for that weekend.

Coldfacts: I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate you sharing your breeding knowledge. However in your post on Russian Greek you stated; "That said any horse that make the Derby field has a chance to win". I agree, that is a Cold Fact.  By the way, I like Russian Greek.

Pedigree Ann: Congrats on your new foal.  I hope she stays healthy and progresses well for you.

Bob from Boston:  Have you ever been to a Nascar race?  I'll bet you ran into NASCAR PRO at one.

Draynay:  Do you think Union Rags is capable of winning the Triple Crown?  I'm going to the Belmont this year and I want to witness a TC winner before I die.  Seriously, though, I'm glad you're back.    

trackjack 21 Jan 2012 8:28 PM

Hello Karen in Texas I like that website,but they dont list the next start for Sky Kingdom out of Empire Maker.From what I learned Empire Maker was one of the best bred colts to ever run in the Kentucky Derby by using as a guide the grade one winners from his dam Toussand.I know he ran 2nd in his derby and Pioneer of the Nile ran 2nd I wouldnt bet on it now but I like this colt and his future in two turn races.If he dosent win the Derby maybe he can win the Belmont like his daddy Empire Maker.I could not find out his next race on Horse Racing Nation.I did a little research and he is owned by Westrock Stables they run a lot of horses in Oaklawn so he might run in the Southwest.What do you think? will he stay home and run in Santa Anita or will he run at Oaklawn.

NASCAR PRO 21 Jan 2012 9:09 PM

Am excited to see Howe Great register his first stakes win! Not only do I faithfully follow Team Valor horses from the time they are named until they retire and beyond, and he's trained by Graham Motion, I love Hat Trick for North American breederse and am adding every progeny of his that I can find to my virtual stable.

www.pedigreequery.com/howe+great

Love the pedigree on Howe Great. Deeper into the pedigree there are many of the great sire lines from sire Phalaris (who of course is represented by Northern Dancer, Raise a Native, Nasrullah, Buckpasser, Pharamond, etc.), there is also Damascus, several strains of Teddy (through many of his sons Bull Lea, Sir Gallahad, Bull Dog, Bull Page, etc.) and of course Man O'War, Whisk Broom, Equipoise, Khaled (one of many different strains of Hyperion), Blue Larkspur, Mahmoud. Lost Code of course brings Ribot, Rough 'n Tumble, etc.

Am super excited to see how Howe Great turns out... he has several decades of Whitney blood, etc. coursing through his veins. Obviously not sure about Derby, but seeing him throughout the year... I am excited.

Anyone know what his speed figures for the Kitten's Joy?

Tiz Herself 21 Jan 2012 9:17 PM

trackjack- I cannot let some comments go by without presenting facts.  Then, that gives the person the choice of looking intelligent and saying that they may have been mistaken, or looking like a fool and not acknowledging the facts put before them.  I knew which he would choose, as it is the path he always chooses.  And then, I can ignore.

I will give him credit on the souped up tracks, though.  I was at Arlington Park for both Buckpasser and Dr Fager's WR miles.  And the track was a freeway both times.  So it is plausible.

Footlick 21 Jan 2012 9:21 PM

NASCAR PRO----Sometimes if the next race is not listed it just means the connections haven't decided yet. I found a news item on that site that quotes Baffert as saying (on 1/13) that he wasn't certain of Sky Kingdom's next start. He did not know where it would be, but it would be a stakes race. I'll try to link that article here for you.

www.horseracingnation.com/.../Santa_Anita_Park_Sky_Kingdom_Strolls_Home_123

Karen in Texas 21 Jan 2012 10:17 PM

Draynay.  The Brooklyn was a G1 race in 1973. Go back to touting Kentucky Derby losers please.

LAZMANNICK 22 Jan 2012 1:31 AM

In my opinion, Riva Ridge was not a GREAT older horse.  He had a Hall of Fame CAREER, but just as an older horse I wouldn't label him great.  Especially for the era, he was an average older male champ.

Again, especially if we look at it in context of the era, 73' was not a banner year for older males.  Key to the Mint was solid at 4, but he just didn't have the consistency he had at 3, and in any event went off form badly after July. Cougar, a legitimately great horse, was probably better in 71' and 72' given he won just 3 of 9 in 73, and the Marlboro Cup and Woodward(vs. Secretariat) were the final 2 races of his career.  Quack and Kennedy Road, stablemates of Cougar, were quality handicap horses out West but were hardly GREAT.  Back East, Big Spruce and Tentam were admirably versatile warriors capable on dirt and turf, and placed in many stakes races, but were a combined 20 for 71 in the win department for their careers.  True Knight was another tough handicap horse of 1973, and he pushed Forego through some great duels in 1974, but like many of the others he wasn't a big winner, going just 14 for 52 in his career.

Then, there was the Jerkens giant killing duo of Prove Out and Onion.  As for Onion, he beat Secretariat in the Whitney when that horse clearly was subpar, and didn't win a race of equal importance at any other time during his career.  Prove Out was absolutely outstanding when beating Secretariat in the Woodward and then crushing the Jockey Club Gold Cup; Andy Beyer believes Secretariat ran to his Derby and Preakness efforts in the Woodward, but that Prove Out was simply better(something like a 129 Beyer figure).  So, I acknowledge that for a couple of races, Prove Out was an elite runner.  But in the other 30+ races in his 39 race career, he was not the same animal.  Hence, Jerkens received so much credit for beating Secretariat with the likes of Onion and Prove Out(horses relatively unknown prior and who did relatively little after).

Unlike Draynay, I'm not writing this to detract from Secretariat.  For me, Secretariat is the greatest horse ever.  But I think because it's Secretariat, and because there have been so many books, television shows, and even a movie about him, the horses that Secretariat ran against(or were contemporaries of Secretariat) are very well known to even those born many years later.  And typically, we tend to rate horses we know higher than those we are less familiar with.  Thus, most everyone of us is familair with Sham, this even though he won only one graded stakes race.  Yes, Sham was fantastic in winning the Santa Anita Derby and running 2nd in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness, but that's pretty much his career accomplishments; he wasn't a 2 year old of note and he wasn't able to stay sound and prove himself against open competition after the Triple Crown.  Less known from that same crop(because he never faced Secretariat) is Ancient Title, a horse that was not Sham's equal early in 73', but a horse that would ultimately win 18 graded stakes races.  Or how about a horse like Menifee, a horse that also ran 2nd in the Derby and Preakness, won a gr.1 prep(Blue Grass), then bombed in the Belmont?  However, Menifee was able to rebound from his Belmont to win the Haskell and place in the Travers and Super Derby(when it was still a gr.1).  I'm not saying Menifee was anywhere close to being as talented as Sham, but his accomplishments were in Sham's ballpark.

Secretariat did not beat up on a bad group of older horses, but they weren't a great group either.  As top older horses go, Riva Ridge was an average older male champion, and horses like Key to the Mint(73' form), Cougar(73' form), Big Spruce, Tentam, and Prove Out represented a solid but hardly an historically elite group.  This wasn't like Affirmed facing Seattle Slew and Exceller or Spectacular Bid facing Affirmed.  Unfortunately, we never got to see Secretariat against an older Forego.

GunBow 22 Jan 2012 5:34 AM

@ Pedigree Ann......CONGRATS!  You must be proud.  I really hope your wish comes true for 2015.  Hey, that might be a good name.............'15 Wishes'  :{)

Mike from Michigan 22 Jan 2012 6:20 AM

It does seem a little convoluted that Havre de Grace's Horse of the Year candidacy was strengthened by the fact that she was beaten by Drosselmeyer and not just Game on Dude in the Breeder's Cup Classic.  Is there not some irony that Havre de Grace clinched the HoY by running 4th in the Classic but had she run 2nd to just Game on Dude the HoY would have been thrown open for debate(like Zenyatta the year before)?

Most racing observers acknowledged prior to the Classic that Game on Dude was a viable HoY contender.  Some even commented after the Classic that he would have been their HoY choice had he been able to hold on and win the race.  But, didn't Game on Dude still finish ahead of Havre de Grace in the Classic?  Did he not beat her, head-to-head, on the racetrack?

Let's pretend Drosselmeyer didn't run in the Classic.  That means Havre de Grace would have finished 3rd; she would have been in the money, something that you think would carry a good deal of weight(any female finishing in the money of the Classic is a big deal). And one would think that finishing 3rd rather than 4th in the Classic would have strengthened Havre de Grace's HoY resume.  

However, no Drosselmeyer means that Game on Dude would have won the Classic, and such a win along with wins in the Big Cap, Goodwood, and a close 2nd in the Hollywood Gold Cup would have given him the same number of gr.1 wins that Blame had last year, equaled Havre de Grace's gr.1 tally for the year, and given him a 3-1 advantage over Havre in terms of open gr.1 wins.  

Thus, we see the irony in the fact that Havre de Grace basically sealed HoY by getting beat by Drosselmeyer, because Drosselmeyer just happened to also defeat Game on Dude(something Havre de Grace had no control over). While Havre de Grace was struggling in amongst a pack of horses down the Churchill stretch, her HoY was being clinched by Droseelmeyer in the shadow of the wire.  

It doesn't make much sense that Havre de Grace's chances at HoY were enhanced because she allowed 2 horses(actually 3) and not just one to finish in front of her, but had Droselmeyer not run by her and then Game on Dude in the Classic, it's possible Game on Dude would have emerged from Monday night with the hardware.

Finally, let's imagine that the 2010 Breeder's Cup Classic was won by Fly Down, and he beat Blame by one and a half lengths.  Let's also say that Blame finished a length and a half and not just a nose in front of Zenyatta.  Let's also say that Paddy O' Prado was able to outrally Zenyatta in a photo for 3rd.  How would the HoY vote have gone?  

Maybe I'm naive, but I believe most of the people that in the real world voted for Blame last year and then Havre de Grace this year would have voted Zenyatta in this hypothetical scenario for the same reasons they voted Havre de Grace.  Sure, there would have been a few anti-Zenyatta zealots that would have still voted Blame even though he would have had just 2 gr.1 wins(to Zenyatta's 5), but I think most of the real-world Blame voters would have gone with Zenyatta; like with Havre, Z was the pro-tem HoY going into the Classic last year, and without either Blame, Lookin at Lucky, or Quality Road winning, she would have won by default.

So, the irony is that had Zenyatta allowed Fly Down and Paddy O' Prado to also finish in front of her in last year's Classic, her HoY would have been relatively controversy free, assuming that Fly Down also beat Blame.  However, wouldn't Zenyatta's place in history have been harmed by a 4th place finish in the Classic?  Most certianly it would have.  And that's why I just never got invested in the 2010 HoY debate.  The way I saw it, the point Zenyatta proved by running such a great race in the Classic transcended the 2010 HoY vote.  In the end, the sport is going to remember Zenyatta as much more than just the 2010 HoY.  Every year, some horse is awarded a HoY, but how often can you say that you saw one of the 3 or 4 greatest, if not THE greatest, female thoroughbred in (North American) history?

And for the record, I would have voted Havre de Grace HoY for 2011 if I had a vote.

GunBow 22 Jan 2012 6:53 AM

Jacob Bratcher,

In The Beat did not raise a gallop. Some horses do not ship and race well. The time of 1:36.32 is turning out to be more like 1:34 and change since graded stakes winner Jackson’s Bend ran 1:37 for a mile.  I refuse to believe that a colt that is supposed to be a router and wins a 6F race in 1:09 and change at CD should be outclassed in a mile race won in1:36.32. I would not drop support for In The Beat as he as one never knows the impact shipping and the new surface had on his performance.

There was another colt that won at CD in the raced that I liked. He is the oddly named A Boy Named Em a son of point Give. He finished fifth and it was evident he was struggling with the track. He was produced from an unraced AP Indy mare and should problems with a mile and longer. I expect both colts to  rebound as they have shown encouraging talent.

Coldfacts 22 Jan 2012 7:11 AM

Finally, a column without everyone piling on Jason. Hear ya, Jason, about the Eclipse Award broadcasts. However, if the always easy on the eyes and ears Jennine Edwards was made the permanent MC, I'd vote for retaining this boring droll with awkward pauses and silences all just to see Jennine light up the screen. (Is she spoken for, Jason ? Never heard mention she was married. How about a column on her ? She's definitely more interesting and exciting than some of this year's Eclipse Award winners. Who wouldn't want her in their barn ! Furthermore, I bet you'd find her to be more pleasant on the phone and more amiable as a dinner companion than, say, Hollendorfer. Wouldn't you agree ? ). As for Eclipse Award trainer, there was too much emphasis on one week at Churchill and the BC. Agree with you, Jason, that the numbers  reveal Pletcher and Baffert - particularly, Baffert - were more deserving.

Will 22 Jan 2012 8:58 AM

Howe Great looked pretty good yesterday.  Team Valor is on fire!

Trebloc 22 Jan 2012 11:15 AM

Nascar Pro,

I think I read that Baffert had said he would probably ship Sky Kingdom out of Cali. Most likely Arkansas. I would expect his next race to be the Southwest followed by the Arkansas Derby followed by a romp in the Kentucky Derby.

longwaytomay 22 Jan 2012 1:12 PM

Hey guys: I'm off to Florida for a week. Be back Jan. 31. If anyone is going to be at Gulfstream next weekend, let me know. Talk to you soon.

Jason Shandler 22 Jan 2012 1:47 PM

Will, those are very kind words you had about Ms. Edwards.  How many restraining orders do you have out against you?

Bob from Boston 22 Jan 2012 4:02 PM

GunBow, thank you for once again being the voice of reason.

Stevebiscuit 22 Jan 2012 4:06 PM

I have been to one Nascar race.  I found it fascinating for 4 minutes.  Unfortunately, they last for hours.  I went me my wife/second cousin.

Bob from Boston 22 Jan 2012 4:07 PM

GunBow the State Restricted Poly champion never won HOY.  She was given HOY.  She did nothing on the track to earn it and everyone knows it.  Blame was the real HOY and always will be.  The poly champion will forever be known as the horse who never beat males on dirt and hid from the toughest races in her own state.  She was given HOY after winning no races at 1 1/4 and not beating a single G1 winner all year for the first time in racing history.  What a joke.

Draynay 22 Jan 2012 5:17 PM

Rub it in Jason. Low 30's for me tonight. Again.

Have a great trip. But don't forget

your adoring audience here.

Safe journey.

Linda in Texas 22 Jan 2012 5:47 PM

As soon as Jason says he's heading to Gulfstream for a week so he can figure out who, if any one, will be able to run down Hansen at a mile on the Gulfstream speedway, the Blame/Zenyatta blame game rears it's ugly head.  

Jeez!  The 2 y.o. champ is making his 3 y.o. debut and we're still debating last year's horse of the year.

Can anyone run down Hansen on Saturday?

Have a great time Jason, enjoy!

trackjack 22 Jan 2012 7:34 PM

Watched my DVDs of the Breeders Cup Classic in 1997 and 1998 while cleaning house this weekend and it feels so good to fall in love with the sport all over again. I still get all starry eyed watching the 1998 Classic even though Skippy didn't pull that off. Skip Away's 97 Classic was what really changed things for me in terms of following the sport. Before that was a casual interest (would watch the Triple Crown and Breeders Cup races when they were on)... remembering Da Hoss's comeback, Silverbulletday and General Meeting finishing 1-2 for Baffert in the Juvenile Fillies... Awesome Again beating to this day one of the best fields ever assembled (just my opinion)... the battle between Escena and Banshee Breeze... and to be reminded how it was all on one day and the Distaff still had its name...

I may order more of those at some point. If is so awesome to go back and relive all of that now, especially when I was only eleven in 1997.. amazing

Tiz Herself 22 Jan 2012 8:04 PM

And congratulations to Rachel Alexandra for delivering her baby boy! That was another warming and uplifting thing for me to see/read this weekend! And relieved that both were delivered safe and healthy... interesting that she's going to Bernardini for 2012... that'll be an amazing baby as well!

Now will eagerly wait for the news of Zenyatta's foal and all goes as well for her :)

Wouldn't it be neat if she had a colt as well? Maybe they'd meet up at some point? I know getting ahead, but that's the OCD dreamer in me.

Tiz Herself 22 Jan 2012 8:08 PM

Correction: the Holy Bull is Sunday.

Rachel just foaled a bay colt by Curlin.  Looking forward to the pics.

trackjack 22 Jan 2012 8:11 PM

Speaking of Eclipse award winners, I can't wait to see the first pictures of the Rachel Alexandra-Curlin foal.

Tiznowbaby 22 Jan 2012 8:31 PM

GunBow:

Dazzling post on the blatant inconsistencies of some who supported HDG for HOY, yet also were anti-Zenyatta(not to point any fingers). Let's get together for dinner sometime.

Draynay: When did you escape from Bedlam? Zenyatta "never won HOY"? Oh dear, you forgot to take your medicine again (or you've had too much of something else). One of the first signs of mental illness is a patient who refuses to admit the obvious (I rest my case). This is the same Draynay who, on two previous blogs spewed such things as, "Mo will dominate [the BC Classic] and leave no doubt [who the HOY is]", and "Write it in stone: Union Rags will win the Derby [because] I am never wrong." Sit down, please. Children should be seen and not heard.

Age of Reason 22 Jan 2012 8:40 PM

Tiz Herself;

Howe Great recieved a Beyer speed figure of 85 for his Kitten's Joy victory.

-Keelerman

-Keelerman 22 Jan 2012 9:16 PM

Gunbow, you are right and Draynay is wrong. Good and cogent argument on her behalf. Draynay, she won. Get over it. Bob/Ted I didn' know you came from the Ozarks. I think that's the only place left in America where marrying your second cousin isn't frowned upon. Yes, regarding Nascar racing. Four minutes is too long, forget an hour. Jason, have a wonderful time and a safe trip. Congrats to Rachel Alexandra and her connections on their new foal. Wonderful news!

Paula Higgins 22 Jan 2012 9:38 PM

Gunbow would you please give it a rest!  It's easy to sit at your computer and pontificate but the fact remains that Blame earned HOTY on the track.  She left CA and raced a legitimate field on dirt and got beat.  Fair and square.  Some people forget that she was carrying 3 lbs less than Blame.  He won.  She lost. No excuses.  Blame was by far the best horse in 2010.  At the start of 2010 everyone was talking about Rachel, Quality Road and the overrated Zenyatta but by the end of the year, Blame had proven he was better than all of them.  Give it a rest!!

Sylvester 22 Jan 2012 10:53 PM

Dray- grow up and move on.  She was more of  champion than any that you touted.  Get over it.

Footlick 22 Jan 2012 11:45 PM

Draynay:

Dang, you again completely missed my point.  I wasn't discussing the 2010 HoY.  I didn't say that Zenyatta deserved it or not.  My point was that had Fly Down beaten both Zenyatta and Blame, Zenyatta probably would have won HoY with less controversy, even though Zenyatta would have then been beaten by more than one horse in the Classic.  As long as Fly Down would have also defeated Blame, Zenyatta's HoY claim would have been stronger under such a scenario even though she would have run worse in the Classic.  

Zenyatta gets nosed out by one horse, but that horse happens to be Blame, and the HoY is rightfully open to debate.  But if she got beat by Fly Down and Paddy O' Prado in addition to Blame, as long as one of those two also finished ahead of Blame, and the HoY is open and shut.  

In 2011, if Harve had been beaten by just Game on Dude in the Classic, it's very possible Game on Dude wins HoY.  However, because Drosselmeyer was able to beat both Havre and Game on Dude, Havre's HoY candidacy actually benefitted from the fact she was 4th.  To me, it just seems weird.  

Run 2nd in the Classic to just Game on Dude, and Havre might not win HoY.  But get beat by Game on Dude, Drosselmeyer, and Ruler on Ice, and Havre wins HoY in a landslide.  All because Game on Dude was caught by Drosselmeyer, something Havre had nothing to do with.  Ironic.

GunBow 23 Jan 2012 1:32 AM

FIRST & FORE MOST...GET RID OF ALEX WALDROP AS SOON AS U CAN!!!...SECOND...WHEN IT COMES TO PRODUCTION "THE GAME" IS WAY WAY WAY OUTTA TOUCH!!!...THATS ABOUT TO CHANGE!!!...TY...

Bellwether 23 Jan 2012 4:37 AM

Bob from Boston: Geez, Bob, I've only had two filed against me. Come on. What are you trying to turn me into ? I see perceptiveness failed you and you did not pick up on the comment about Hollendorfer. It was directed to Jason and concerned a previous experience he'd had with that rather gruff and hard spoken gentleman. Merely, trying to draw a contrast with the fair and pleasant-natured Ms. Edwards in hopes Jason would do a column on her. Actually, if I step out of character and quit acting, I've been married to one woman for 32 years. By the way, what's your track record ?

Will 23 Jan 2012 9:28 AM

First, I have a problem with this statement..."Shackelford, who would have had 3 grade one wins at classic distances"...mostly I have a problem with the wording "would have won".  It means he didn't.  

Second...I didn't think AK won his division merely by his win in the KD.  I think he won it because he competed in all 3 legs of the TC admirably, and interference and an injury were responsible for a loss in the Belmont and going on the shelf.  If we find it a negative to crown a miler over a router. why did Europe crown Frankel this year, and Goldikova last year...both milers....as Cartier HOY.  Maybe we just can't appreciate what we have while we have it.

I have to give credit to a trainer who knows where to run his horses.  Keeping Caleb's Posse at sprints and miles was not an "easy out".  It was a wise decision made by a trainer who knew his horse and it's limitations.  Which makes more sense than a trainer like Pletcher who embarrasses the 2010 best US miler by putting him in the BC Classic, and watched while Quality Road came in last.  And in 2011, puts the best US sprinter, still recovering from a liver ailment, into the the BC Classic, only to watch Uncle Mo come in 10th.

I can take nothing away from the heart of a runner like Shackelford, I simply didn't see the wins.  Someone took exception with me because I said he won one race all year, and then took 3 paragraphs to explain he won two. Unlike AK who was injured and out, Shack kept running, and not winning.  I love him, but he just didn't cut into the winning column often enough.

I simply thought Caleb's Posse was the most consistent 3 year old of 2011, miler or not.  And, he was exciting to watch.  And he won the BC mile.  And to those who don't feel the mile has produced great horses...what?  It's a young race.  This was only its 5th running.  Give it time.

And to anyone under the delusion that the Eclipse awards are NOT a popularity contest, I've got a great little bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

PS..Congrats to Rachel and her lovely new crowned prince.  Can't wait to see what is to come.

Slew 23 Jan 2012 9:29 AM

Tiz Herself -

I've always liked Hat Trick, too, but I liked him better at $6500 than at $15K! At $6500, I would have bred my mare to him in a minute, but at $15K, he's out of my price-range.

Pedigree Ann 23 Jan 2012 11:57 AM

I like how the eclipse awards are done.

surfset 23 Jan 2012 12:18 PM

[OK, late comments again]

If you were the owner of Riva Ridge, would you be unhappy?

I concur with Lazmannick: the Brooklyn was a Grade 1 (and a high end Grade 1) when Riva won it.

For myself, I would have been happy to own any of the 1973 "low level" older horses.  

Jason: isn't Florida sort of boring (except for the horse racing)?  Nice to have holidays AGAIN.

Linda in Texas: it seems like you're getting all of our cold weather this year -- I wonder why I bought the parka and how come I bothered to put snow....er, winter tires on my car!

Bob:  kiss, kiss.

mz 23 Jan 2012 4:05 PM

Wish Maritimer the best in his career, wherever it may take him. It is hard to see him sold, however should he come back for the Kentucky Derby, I will  be all for him. He was one of the best three year olds in Canada this year. I hope he does himself proud!

Tiz Herself 23 Jan 2012 6:38 PM

Slew,

Since I was the one that corrected you on the number of races Shackleford won in 2011, I taken the liberty of reposting the section of my post that addressed the correction.

“Shackleford won two races in 2011 and not one as you have highlighted.”

The remainder of my post address addressed several issues to enlighten you as to why Caleb’s Posse was undeserving of the eclipse award. For you to state that three paragraphs were used to specify the number of races won by Shackleford is simply incorrect. If you do not wish corrections do not post inaccuracies and when you take offense to said corrections, do not try to be funny with further inaccuracies.

Coldfacts 23 Jan 2012 7:20 PM

First The Factor runs a 106.98 and then Frumious runs the half in 42 seconds finishing up in 107.28 in the Palos Verdes.  You "dirt lovers" are going to love the Breeder's Cup at Santa Anita.  

Householder 23 Jan 2012 7:22 PM

Will,

I have been married to three first cousins and a goat.  None of them ended well.  I drank with Ms. Edwards at the Irish bar in Arlington Heights at the now closed hotel next to the track.  She is nice and her eyes would melt an iceberg.  Still, mz is the next Mrs. Ex Ted Bob.  Did anyone besides me find it difficult to believe Newt's children from his first wife defending his third wife at the expense of his second wife?

Bob from Boston 23 Jan 2012 7:47 PM

I'd rather vote for our old friend Tim G (remember him?) than Newt. Are Republicans serious about this guy? How many million people live in this country and this is the best they can do?

Jason Shandler 23 Jan 2012 8:36 PM

GunBow

When you try to make sense to both Draynay and that wealth of knowledge Slyvestor, you have to realize that you're dealing with thick, really thick.

LAZMANNICK 23 Jan 2012 8:46 PM

Jason, how can you take Republicans seriously.  Romney is a robot and Newt is crazy.  Vote for the guy who got us out of Iraq and killed Osama Bin Laden.  And by the way since Obama took office the Stock Market is up over 50%.

Draynay 23 Jan 2012 9:01 PM

Bob/Ted/Jason, I live in the town Newt Gingrich and Marianne (his second wife) lived in while he was in Congress. He did in fact ask for a divorce 2 weeks after she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis so he could marry his mistress of at least 4 years (wife #3). As for Newt's children, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. During a radio interview, they tried to whitewash the infamous meeting with his first wife (their MOTHER) while she was in the hospital for a surgical procedure. No, he didn't actually ask for the divorce at that meeting. That is correct. But he DID try to discuss the fine details of the divorce, including money. A family minister was there and he heard the whole thing. Newt is a real gem. At a minimum, he is guilty of having really poor timing. The other, and more likely possiblity, is that he is a cruel jerk who doesn't have the character to be president. Sorry, I know this isn't about horse racing but I had to respond to your comments.

Paula Higgins 23 Jan 2012 10:05 PM

Sylvester:

I direct you to my response to Draynay.

I didn't make an argument about whether Zenyatta deserved the 2010 HoY.  My point was that like with Havre de Grace, had Zenyatta been beaten by more horses in the Classic her HoY candidacy could have actually been strengthened so long as one of these other horses finished ahead of Blame and the winner was not a viable candidate himself(example: Fly Down).  

Hence, quoting myself, "Zenyatta gets nosed out by one horse, but that horse happens to be Blame, and the HoY is rightfully open to debate."  But had she finished 3rd(or 4th) to Blame and a victorious Fly Down, she probably wins the HoY comfortably. Note, I wrote that given the actual result of Blame winning the Classic, the HoY debate was RIGHTFULLY thrown open to debate.  My objective is not to point out any hypocrisy in voting.  I just wanted to show how circumstances made for ironic HoY votes the last 2 years.

To this day, I'm not sure how I would have voted if I had a vote for the 2010 HoY.  I didn't have a problem with Zenyatta winning, but I don't think I would have had a problem with Blame winning either.  In fact, I was fully expecting Blame to win HoY.  

GunBow 24 Jan 2012 12:15 AM

Gentlemen (and Bob/Ted):  I don't think that you fully understand the wonderfulness of a Newt running for President.  Does a Newt not open the race to other amphibians?  Will we not in the future see Salamanders and Frogs and even Toads in the run for the White House?  Although come to think of it, there seem to be a lot of Toads already in the race.

And  Amphibians today open the Presidency to the possibility of Reptiles and Mammals tomorrow  ( not including Snakes and Weasels, who have been in politics from the very beginning).  

Yup.  The race will be to the swiftest.  Maybe we will soon see a female in the White House but she will have four legs.  I'm sure there are a lot of us on this  blog who would love to see a Rachel Alexandra / Zenyatta ticket.  (Havre de Grace can be appointed Secretary of State.  Blind Luck, Speaker of the House.)

Bob/Ted:  I feel honored to be nominated as a future Mrs. Ex Bob/Ted but unfortunately, not being your first cousin, I do not feel qualified.  I think it makes more sense to just have an open marriage with the Linda(s)' the Karen(s), and Paula.

mz 24 Jan 2012 1:38 AM

THE BEST WOULD NEVER GET NEAR DC UNLESS THEY WENT THERE TO OVER THROW "THE GANG$TER$ RUN N THIS NATION N THE GROUND!!!...WAKE UP FOLKS???...ty...

Bellwether 24 Jan 2012 2:47 AM

Jason,

When you run into Todd P. down in Florida, could you ask him when he is going to put Gemologist back into training.

longwaytomay 24 Jan 2012 8:51 AM

Jason - the Republicans are a joke.  Hilarious to see 7 or 8 people in a debate for President of the United States raise their hands when asked "Who doesn't believe in evolution?"  Um, ok.  Ron Paul is the only one who knows what he wants to do and he is unelectable because he is seen as crazy.  So, I'll vote Obama unless Paul gets the nomination.

trackjack - I'll be at the Tampa Bay Derby barring any unforeseen circumstances.  Hope to see you there.

2:24 24 Jan 2012 10:07 AM

Draynay: If a "polytrack" mare is one who gets beat a head in the Classic, what do you call one who finishes off the board and gets beat by daylight? Give me the polytrack mare any day of the week!

Sylvester: Don't forget in your blind loyalty that "restricted"-quality fields come in TWO genders: Zenyatta isn't the only female HOY in recent history (cough, cough) to beat up on weak fields because the competition got scared off--and I'll take Switch and Zardana over Rule at any odds!

Age of Reason 24 Jan 2012 10:23 AM

Draynay, on Obama:

Sure, the stock market may have risen 50%, but gasoline prices have risen 100.6%. Does the concept of hyper-inflation mean nothing to you?

Age of Reason 24 Jan 2012 10:41 AM

I like Jason's all-purpose blogs! Jason, how is Tim G., and how did you come to associate him with Newt? Do they resemble each other? Also, my request re: Todd P. is that you ask him what his plans are for Spring Hill Farm in the near future. Consider yourself our man-on-the-scene!

Paula---I think your assessment of Newt's character is probably accurate...

Karen in Texas 24 Jan 2012 11:43 AM

JASON

Tim G was a credit to your blog.

Mike Relva 24 Jan 2012 12:37 PM

DRAYNAY

Tell me what's it like being old and your only source of attention is disparaging a once in a lifetime mare? Same old tune! Thought you would still be licking your wounds with your asinine predictions, especially regarding Uncle Mo last yr.

Mike Relva 24 Jan 2012 12:43 PM

mz:  I feel really left out.  At least I'm not far from the Arlington Million so Bob/Ted could visit between races.  (I still feel guilty for not meeting up with you at the Derby.)

Jean in Chicago 24 Jan 2012 12:50 PM

Let's all remember this is a horseracing site.  Enough with the politics.

Bob from Boston 24 Jan 2012 1:39 PM

Not to mention the guy (Perry) who wants to get rid of the Education Department.  Let me guess, his kids went through private school.

Vote Pro Gaming and the candidate to least likely gouge away at the exotic pool.  

Householder 24 Jan 2012 2:35 PM

Thanks for the very brief answer, other Mary. Just keeping my identity.

Mary Zinke 24 Jan 2012 3:21 PM

Union Rags will not win the KY Derby!!  You heard it here first.

Union Buster 24 Jan 2012 3:44 PM

MZ, open marriage LOL??? I think we would be too much for Ted/Bob to handle altogether. He would need two more alter egos. MZ, I would vote for either Zenyatta or Rachel for President. They would certainly do better. I vote we try for a woman. I ACTUALY heard my husband, who is slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun, say Hillary would have done a much better job. My teeth almost fell out. Gunbow, I totally understood what you were saying about Havre de Grace and Zenyatta. So did Sylvester and his soul mate Draynay. But anytime they can take a shot at The Queen, they do. If nothing, they are consistent. Did anyone see that adorable picture of Rachel's foal "kissing" Rachel shortly after his birth? He's a beautiful foal. Hoping for great things from this boy.

Paula Higgins 24 Jan 2012 5:49 PM

I have no idea who he is or how he is doing. I just know he had some very angry opinions, most of them wrong, much like Newt.

Jason Shandler 24 Jan 2012 6:45 PM

My 403 (b) of $80,000 paid $350 the fourth quarter.  My $80,000 in my state pension retirement plan paid $800 in interest for the entire year! 1% What stock market are you looking at?  

I would like to pull them both and buy a thoroughbred.  At least I could watch my money "burn" in person not just on paper.  

Householder 24 Jan 2012 7:48 PM

It's a lot easier to tell who won't win the Derby right now then who will win.

In March of last year Animal Kingdom was running second in an AlwOc on turf at Gulfstream.  

Householder 24 Jan 2012 8:02 PM

That was supposed to be posted at the other blog, other Mary.

Mary Zinke 24 Jan 2012 8:37 PM

Geeze, Jean!  Consider my head thumped.  I am so sorry to have missed you (both times).

Maybe I can make it up to you.  How about you and I being Flower Girls in the Open Wedding?

mz 24 Jan 2012 8:38 PM

Yeah, Obama's the answer, right? lmao

Mike Relva 24 Jan 2012 8:51 PM

UNION BUSTER

Hansen won't either.

Mike Relva 24 Jan 2012 8:56 PM

I think Bob/Ted is right. We need to stick to fighting about horse racing. However, Bob/Ted did start the conversation about Newt.

Paula Higgins 24 Jan 2012 9:58 PM

mz,

Could I be the minister?

Tiznowbaby 24 Jan 2012 11:09 PM

I  know who else wont win the derby.......ANDY BEYER!

KY VET 24 Jan 2012 11:24 PM

Coldfacts: No matter what you may believe, Shack won the Preakness and an allowance race in 2011.  Period.  Caleb's Posse won 5 Stakes races including the BC Mile. Your 3 paragraphs were then spent knocking CP's preferred distance.  As a matter of fact, I believe To Honor and Serve was the best 3 year old...but he didn't get to race often enough because of an injury, didn't get to win often enough, and didn't earn the right to win the Eclipse.

As far as humor is concerned, if you can't smile or giggle once in a while, you don't really have a life.  Thank God for the Bob's and Dr. Drinkinbum's and Ted's.  At least they make my day a little brighter....even Dray.  

As to, hmmm, politics...someone please let me get away from it somewhere.  Right now I'm torn between Garfield the cat and Snoopy the dog.  They seem a lot smarter than anyone I've seen this past year....especially Snoopy who never says anything.

Slew 25 Jan 2012 8:17 AM

In one of my first posts on these blogs I predicted that Saint Liam would end up with several stars on the racetrack. Some of you folks laughed it off. Havre de Grace has carried on the champion bloodlines of Saint Liam with a classy trainer by her side. I give all the respect to Larry Jones for making a comeback in this sport. He and his horse are full of class and I wish them luck in 2012.

I posted 3 or 4 weeks ago that neither Hansen or Union Rags will be a factor in the 2012 KY Derby. But I am in the corner of Union Rags, his potential can not be ignored.

Trackjack,

The horse who will run down Hansen is Consortium.

ColdFacts,

I have never heard of Tiger Walk, I'll keep an eye out for him.

Ranagulzion,

Pletcher's ace is Gemologist, the horse likes to win. I responded to your last comment in the previous blog. I'm surprised that you did not get the last word.

Draynay,

I am not sure what souped up means, but the tracks sure were lightning fast every time Quality Road stepped on to Gulfstream Park. Every post you make is a joke!

Amazombie is lucky that he skipped the Palos Verdes. Frumious has turned into a monster and he is getting little repect. He is now headed to Dubai. Jeff Bonde is an excellent trainer too, keep up the hard work.

Newt is very smart and will be the republican nominee. His personal life is none of my business, let him be the quality politician that he is.

There are plenty of fights going on around here in the horse racing world. At least horse racing fans have not started making death threats like some simple minded and sick NFL fans.

Forbidden Apple 25 Jan 2012 10:38 AM

Paula Higgins:

Thanks for the local summary on Newt.  Also during the time he was married to his second wife, he began an affair(1993-2000) with a congressional staffer who is now his third wife.  During this time, as Speaker of the House, he led the impeachment of President Clinton and the attempt to remove him from office(for lying under oath about his sex life).  I agree, he does not have the character to be President.

Jacob Bratcher:

I'm saddened that Michelle Bachmann dropped out.  She promised if elected to bring gas prices down to $2.00.

Jean in Chicago and others familiar with Arlington Park:

We have a niece getting married in downtown Chicago on Aug. 17 and we'll be attending. Back in 2002 we invited the bride-to-be and some friends to attend the BC with us at Arlington Park.  It was a cold day with seats in the temporary stands near the top of the stretch.  The whole group had a great time and we initiated some new fans to thoroughbred racing.  The bride-to-be has connections with the catering service at AP through her current job and she wants to plan a day at the races for anyone coming in for the wedding on Sat Aug. 18 which happens to be Arlington Million day.  She has asked me to help out.  We would probably have a small group(6-12).  My wife needs to be inside with A/C.  I've checked the AP website and am aware of their package deals and pricing but would appreciate any first hand suggestions from true fans about indoor seating(clubhouse and up) on Arlington Million day from anyone, even if you are part of Ted/Bob's harem.   Thanks in advance.

trackjack 25 Jan 2012 12:46 PM

Animal Kingdom was the top three year old of last season--did he have the best year? Yeah, I think his was best! Just as was Amazombie's! He won big races, was dq'd from another, and won the big one! A true 6 fur horse, trained by one of the best you've never heard of! Zombie was my big horse in this year's Cup--and he was my only winner on Sat....gotta use those Cal-bred sprinters!

Matthew W 25 Jan 2012 3:11 PM

224 you didn't even name the best older horse of 1973: Quack, or as Harry Hensen said in 72 Hol Gold Cup: "KOOO-WHACK!!!!

Matthew W 25 Jan 2012 3:17 PM

Adios Charlie wins easy at Gulfstream.  And please do not talk about Sham as if he had a career.  The horse won 1 major race as a 3 year old and never won again. Pioneer of the Nile did more.

Draynay 25 Jan 2012 3:19 PM

Hey Draynay: I think it would have been nice to line you up with Sham and Riva Ridge and see who would have gotten to the finish line first at 1 1/4 miles.

Too bad they're gone.  Anyone know where either Sham or Riva Ridge have any descendants?

(I would pay to see that race.)

mz 25 Jan 2012 6:11 PM

IMO,Out Of Bounds' win in the Sham wasn't as impressive as some might think.He had to be urged with the whip while Gomez gave him a strong hand ride in order to catch Secret Circle who was making his comeback and first time past 6f.Yes,Secret Circle had the back-class but he wasn't hand ridden as aggressively as OoB was.. plus he didn't even feel the whip.To me,SC has the most upside out of the 2 to go longer based on pedigree alone,we'll see.

Liason looks ok,but he's an Indian Charlie... let me know when an Indian Charlie is competitive past 1 1/16th, dam-side be dammed! Ditto for the Dixie Unions'.To all you Union Rags fans, the facts are the facts.. numbers don't lie.

Alpha reminds me of Stay Thirsty.He's rather smallish and will probably prefer the NY climate/tracks.I can see him clean house out there leading up to the Derby now that my 'Early visual KY Derby pick' Stephanoatsee is off the trail.

The Holy Bull should be fun to watch,but the Champion 2yo Hansen is just too much horse for that field right now,even coming off the lay-off.

I'll be looking out for the lightly raced El Padrino(The Godfather),trained by Pletcher from now on.He was supposed to go in the LeComte but Pletcher said he wasn't quite ready and instead will enter him in an allowance @ GP pretty soon.I Like his pedigree... Love is a strong word.

Carlos in Cali 25 Jan 2012 6:34 PM

Forbidden Apple.  Jeff Bonde trained Smiling Tiger as well.

Frumious ran a 42 second 1/2 mile but The Factor has also lit that dirt up as well.  

My early BC Spring Cup pick:  A horse from the west.

Householder 25 Jan 2012 7:44 PM

Sorry for being away.  I've been making wedding plans.  It's difficult keeping many brides happy at once (thank goodness Newt has been a mentor to me).  I have to tip my hat to my personal assistant (Dr. Drunkinbum) for all he has done to make the planning less painful.  trackjack, which day are you attending the races?  I am sure you stated it, but due to the pressures of the wedding, I find myself scatter-brained.  If it's Million Day, it will be difficult.  If Thursday or Friday, I'd suggest the owners suites first, Million Room second, and International Room third.  If it is Million Day, the International Room is expensive, but comes with an open bar and buffet.  The Million Room is nice too.  The Million is a great day.  I too froze at the Breeders' Cup in Chicago.  Paula Higgins, don't be telling everyone my dirty secrets.  Ted from LA hates winter with a passion.  Bring on the Derby preps.

Bob from Boston 25 Jan 2012 11:14 PM

yes but is the distance not 1 1/8 Dray? That bodes well for The Duke, 1 1/8 dirt is a specialty distance!

Matthew W 26 Jan 2012 1:41 AM

Forbidden Apple,

Not only does Gemologist like to win, he likes to win at Churchill Downs!!

longwaytomay 26 Jan 2012 8:35 AM

Forbidden Apple,

What does someone as synical about Todd Pletcher's training abilities like you know about which 3YO is the ace of his stable? Gemologist is just one of his potential stars but not the leading light right now.  Discreet Dancer and Algorithim are ahead of him and Spring Hill Farm is capable of eventually becoming "top dog" by Derby Day.

Union Buster,

Unless you can tell us why he can't win the Derby since there are hundreds of other 3YOs including nineteen that will enter the starting gates on May 5, that also will not win it, you are a fraud and mischieve-maker on the blog. It is easy to repeatedly say which horse will not win, now tell us which one will win.

Ranagulzion 26 Jan 2012 5:35 PM

trackjack;

I wish I could help, but I'm  down in the cheap seats.  I will hope for everybody's sake that its not a  typical Chicago Aug (i.e., way too hot and humid).  Last summer I spent about 4 hr/day just watering the garden.

mz:  

You betcha!  And thank you for reminding people that Canadian horses do a whole lot more than just wander around a racetrack.  Am I the only one who remembers fondly a guy by the name of Northern Dancer?

And, yes, it's not likely a great racing mare will produce champion offspring.  It's not likely ANY mare will produce champion offspring!  Those few  mares that have great influence, that everybody looks for in a pedigree, usually don't become apparent until several generations have passed.   The same may hold true for stallions.  How many times have people said 'not a great sire, but a great damsire'?  This is the whole reason people look not just at sire & dam, but at a 5 generation pedigree.

At least a good racing mare has shown she carries the 'right' genes.  Whether they get passed along is anybody's guess (and hope).

And Draynay, come on.  There is a long, terrible list of horses who won only a few races and then suffered career ending injuries.  Please don't talk about them as if they kept racing for years and never won again.

Jean in Chicago 26 Jan 2012 6:37 PM

I find it difficult to believe, in this instant electronic age, that the the oxymoronic myth of an "honest politician" still exists.

That's akin to expecting a trainer to say of his Derby hopeful,      

"Well, he's really not that talented, and we're just putting him in this race where he'll be outclassed, but we'll keep our fingers crossed and hope for a lot of luck."

Slew 27 Jan 2012 8:03 AM

Dray:  Sham "was one of the fastest horses of the 20th century, but was overshadowed by his larger-than-life peer and half-cousin, Secretariat."

Star crossed by being born the wrong year, he ran the 2nd fastest time in the Kentucky Derby..a split second behind Secretariat.  If not for a fracture, he would have continued a glorious career.  He was a beautiful bay, who was discovered to have the 2nd largest heart of any TB..again...right behind Secretariat.

Now tell me...exactly where did your hero Uncle Mo finish in the Kentucky Derby?  How about your other monster, Quality Road?  Oh...they never made it...did they?  How would they have managed against a competitor like Secretariat?  Heck, they weren't fit enough to polish the hooves of 3 x HOY, Forego who came in 4th in that particular KY Derby...

Slew 27 Jan 2012 8:25 AM

Slew, when i watched the Sham Stakes i looked up to see who he was. I discovered the heart anomaly as you stated. Yes he was born in the wrong year indeed. But he was something else and to be admired. And i see you think the same.Jason won't mind i am sure, but Steve wrote a great article on Sham on July 9, 2009 and

i went back and found it when i was

researching Sham when Santa Anita opened 2 weeks ago to learn about him. The article is entitled Sham Rocks.

Thanks Jason, it's all about the horse on Bloodhorse.com and it would be a pretty dismal life without all the knowledge from so many authors.

Linda in Texas 27 Jan 2012 5:10 PM

Caleb was robbed of his Eclipse Award- IN THE SPRINT.  AK was the deserving choice- winner of KD. place at Preakness... and an injury not of his connections at the Preakness.  It's not as if they sat out the season intentionally.  As I recall, AK finished 6th in the Belmont- on a leg injured at the gate.  Not as if he was a DNF like Big Brown.

Hansen earned the juvie, and I'm happy it was a landslide.  Those who say Rags ran wide are simply making excuses- coudda, woudda, shoudda.

As for those who felt the ceremont not worthy of watching, you have only yourselves to blame- next time yurn off the TV.  These are not, with Baffert being the exception, professional actors; they are entitled to their nervous moments.  As for Pletcher/ Baffert- at least one of them should not have made the ballot.  Motion was a far more deserving nominee.

Finally- the biggest loser of the eveing?  Hilda's Passion.

PomDeTerre 27 Jan 2012 6:53 PM

@ Silvester- Dude, I think it's YOU that needs to "give it a rest".  That 2011 argument is sooo over and sooo last year.

PomDeTerre 27 Jan 2012 7:04 PM

Another older horse that will be fun to watch for as I didn't realize he was in the US (And maybe he isn't now) is Pathfork, a son of Distorted Humor who is a group one winner in Ireland. I did see photos of him working at Santa Anita

www.pedigreequery.com/pathfork

Anyone know if he's staying in North America for this year? I am excited to see that!

Tiz Herself 27 Jan 2012 7:53 PM

My money is going to be on Ron the Greek in the Sunshine Millions Classic.

And I'll take Consortium in the Holy Bull.

ColdFacts,

Consortium is first time Lasix on sunday. With the juice and minus 2 pounds, he just might run a big race.

Ranagulzion,

Gemologist was born with talent and already has 3 wins.

Householder,

Bonde is sending out Sway Away in the first at Santa Anita tomorrow. I think he will win.

Forbidden Apple 27 Jan 2012 7:54 PM

Slew, how bad was the racing in the early 1970's that a horse that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn as a 3 year old suddenly becomes 3x HOY.  Thank goodness Seattle Slew came along with Affirmed and Spectacular Bid to change what was a weak crop in early 1970's.  Sham won one race that means anything and never won anything again.  Please stop bragginhg about second place.  His race at Belmont was a disaster.

Draynay 27 Jan 2012 11:31 PM

 Didn't Forego win the Florida Derby?

Smoking Baby 28 Jan 2012 9:42 AM

NASCAR PRO----Did you see that Sky Kingdom's next start is now shown to be the Robert B. Lewis, G2? I posted on Steve's blog as well.

Karen in Texas 28 Jan 2012 12:33 PM

Alright Draynay, you did not just call Forego weak. Wait a minute, you did! Well there goes whatever shred of credibility you had left. You truly no nothing.

Stevebiscuit 28 Jan 2012 2:24 PM

Dray

Maybe you should stop acting like the Village Idiot.  Leave that up to Sylvestor.  Because of Forego's size he was a late developer and really didn't even win a graded stakes race until his 17th start in November of his three year old.

Let’s see.  In his final 40 starts he won something like 14 G1 races and 23 graded stakes over-all.  He won G1 races at 7F, 8F, 9F, 9.5F, 10F, 12F and 16F.  He carried 130Lbs and more in 24 starts (guess why…..because he was really good).  He won 14 of those races and finished in the money in 20 of them.  He won carrying as much as 137Lbs and finished 2nd by a neck to Quiet Little Table in the 10F Surburban carrying 138 Lbs to QLT’s 114 Lbs.  He ran a mile in 1.33.4 carrying 136 Lbs.  He won at 6F in 1.09.4; 7F in 1.21.3; 8F in 1.33.3; a 9F Woodward in 1.45.4 (barely winded) while carrying 135 Lbs. (didn’t your sweaty struggle to win this race in a much slower time and carrying much less weight?); 9.5F in 1.54.3; 10F in 1.59.4; and 12F in 1.27.1.  He also won FOUR consecutive Woodards.  In 1978 he also defeated the same Dr. Patches who later that year would defeat Slew.  Any talk of all time great must include Forego at least somewhere in the top ten N/A horses all time.

LAZMANNICK 28 Jan 2012 2:31 PM

 There is certainly no doubt about the greatness of Seattle Slew.  Having said this, if we are to impugne a crop of horses from the '70s it should certainly be the bunch of foals of 1974 instead of the bunch from 1969 (Riva Ridge) and 1970 (Secretariat).  I mean Run Dusty Run, Jatski, Iron Constitution, Cormorant (to be fair sire of Derby winner Go For Gin), Royal Ski, Affiliate, J.O.Tobin?  Not exactly a list of who's who in racing lore.  Why dump on Secretariat's year over this bunch of quesionables?  Now, as bad as the three year olds of 1977 were, I would certainly take them any day over Mine That Bird, Munnings, Summer Bird, Papa Clem, etc. who were the world beaters that Rachel Alexandra managed to outrun.

Smoking Baby 28 Jan 2012 3:20 PM

Yes Dray, POTN was another horse who got no respect and who's career was cut short in the Preakness.  Beyer gave him a full page right up as to why he was too slow to win the Derby.  Seems he faired pretty well despite that endorsement.

Householder 28 Jan 2012 3:32 PM

Draynay, what are you thinking?? They are absolutely right about Sham. Sham was a great horse who had the bad luck of racing against Secretariat, a horse from another planet. He is considered one of the fastest horses who ever raced in the 20th century.  As stated above he he had a huge heart, literally (18 pounds). Not as large as Secretariat's but darn close. As for the Belmont, as stated above, they found out he had a hairline fracture. That race was a throwout for him. Even if he didn't make your list of all time greats, he made Blood Horse's list pretty decisively.

Bob/Ted,please pick another mentor, not Newt, or you will be paying alimony to 2 wives, be 75 pounds overweight, have your credit line at Tiffany's cancelled, and have delusions of becoming the next President.

Paula Higgins 28 Jan 2012 4:30 PM

Forbidden Apple,

I'll agree with you that Gemologist is a talented colt. He's already shown glimses of his sire Tiznow's gameness and determination to win. However I do believe that right now he lags behind his Todd squad stable mates Discreet Dancer and Algorithm in readiness to tackle the bestof the age group. Coldfacts alluded to a quirk in his left front leg action while galloping and I concur but am not sure that it necessarily implies unsoundness issues. I recall Friesan Fire and St Trinians having similar awkward front leg action without soundness problems.

BTW I noted your comment about being surprised that I didn't have the last word in our last skirmish. My preference is always for the last laugh over having the last word. Peace.  

Ranagulzion 28 Jan 2012 5:35 PM

Liaison ? You can't be serious.  Let me remind you the Kentucky Derby is a 1 1/4.

Draynay 20 Jan 2012 6:53

Adios Charlie wins easy at Gulfstream.  

Draynay 25 Jan 2012 3:19 PM

Uncle Mo wins The B.C. Classic.

These are Indian Charlie horses.

tcc 28 Jan 2012 6:37 PM

Both Mucho Macho Man and Awesome Feather were outstanding today! Ron The Greek put in a solid effort to be second to MMM as well. I don't see anyone beating Awesome Feather if she holds the form she has. 2012 is unfolding as I'd hoped it would! :) It is too bad that Awesome Feather missed her three year old season, however I am thrilled she is healthy and love to watch her run! She is one of few I can actually say that I saw race in person, as was there in 2010 at Churchill and I loved her from the time I saw her. It feels good to fall in love with a horse again. And Mucho Macho Man... I love him very much too. They both have a great 2012 ahead of them!

Home Sweet Aspen was tenacious in the Santa Monica - interesting horse to watch for in the future?

Tiz Herself 28 Jan 2012 11:19 PM

Jean in Chicago and Bob from Boston: (hey, that has a ring to it)

Thanks for your input about Arlington Park.  Million Day may be too much to bring a group to, we may try it Sunday, but if I'm in Chicago on Million Day, I'll be there Jean and do General Admission, which I prefer.  I just hope they don't shut out GA folks from the paddock and grandstand as they did at the 2002 BC.

Awesome Feather and Mucho Macho Man both looked, well AWESOME!  Good to see them back and doing well.

The Holy Bull: Cannot go against the White Tornado, looking for Hansen to win with Algorithms second.  Glad to see these preps are underway.

trackjack 29 Jan 2012 12:22 AM

Dray: you're really so funny and so pathetic at the same time.

But then...morons usually are.

Slew 29 Jan 2012 8:56 AM

 My  bad.  Forego ran 2nd to Royal And Regal in the Florida Derby that winter.  I couldn't find out how far he got outrun but Royal And Regal ran the distance in 1:47 2/5 so I'd say Forego's performance would qualify as hitting the broad side of a barn no?

Smoking Baby 29 Jan 2012 10:45 AM

Sham is a sham but Forego is not.  But Forego did benefit from lack of talent that didn't show up until 1976 and 1977.  Forego and The Bid were my favorites growing up.  I was lucky enough to meet Forego in 79.  Sorry Paula Sham was not a great horse the Belmont proved that.

Draynay 29 Jan 2012 12:43 PM

Hansen wins for fun today!

DRAYNAY

The last horse you insulted carried a ton of weight on bad ankles. Like Laz, Paula, Stevebiscuit says quit while your behind, which is standard for you. You aren't a true fan of racing!

Mike Relva 29 Jan 2012 4:38 PM

Forbidden Apple,

The Todd squad is a coming ...how do you like it?  That Pletcher punch is a knock out with Discreet Dancer, Algorithim, El Padrino, Spring Hill Farm and Gemologist ...wow. It looks like only Union Rags will be able to halt this Derby juggernaut. Pletcher is going to cream the Prep races as I warned you.  The writing is on the wall my friend.

Ranagulzion 29 Jan 2012 6:25 PM

The second quarter of the Holy Bull was much too fast IMO, especially when Hansen was out there all by himself.  No need to run an uncontested second quarter in 22 seconds when the first was 23.3 and he already had the lead.  This to me spells a head strong horse that will not be allowed to be rated.  I love Tapit as a sire, but not for classic distances.  Hansen is not going to be a 10F type IMO.  He seems to be the type that has to have the lead and with his slow break today he could have been held back and rated and let the others do something to speed the opening quarter up.

I think Algorithms has a lot of upside and has done everything right.  Excellent breeding by Bernardini and the dam has produced some decent progeny.  However, I think that she has more of a sprinting and short distance influence with the likes of Gallant Romeo and Brown Berry and Sunny Romance in her pedigree and I don’t see where any of her progeny has won a stakes beyond 8.5F.  In the Holy Bull the final quarter tailed off drastically IMO and even though Algorithms won convincingly, he still needed a personally timed 25.66 seconds to get home in a mile race.

It'll be interesting to see how the Derby picture develops as others begin to show their mettle.  I think I'm going to look west for the Derby winner this year.

LAZMANNICK 29 Jan 2012 10:50 PM

Well Draynay, we are going to have to disagree about Sham. Yes, Forego and Spectacular Bid were great horses, but so was Sham. Spectacular Bid had a safety pin problem and Sham had a hairline fx. Awesome Feather was awesome once again. Look forward to seeing her again and I was thrilled to see Mucho Macho Man back on track. Very happy for Kathy. Wonder what happened to Hansen?

Paula Higgins 29 Jan 2012 11:07 PM

Growing up.  You mean you actually attempted to grow up Draynay?  I think you had better work a little harder at it.  If you do it's possible that by the time you retire you might actually be pretty close to getting there.

LAZMANNICK 29 Jan 2012 11:19 PM

Soundness should count, and fragility is a grievous fault, but being injured because another horse fouls you is not unsoundness.

Barbaro did not leave the scene due to unsoundness, nor did Animal Kingdom, so that does not detract from the dominance he displayed in his Derby victory, his good Preakness in the mud, and the awesome move he made in the Belmont while seriously injured after being mugged leaving the gate.

Can anyone think of Afleet Alex's Preakness win without remembering he was knocked to his knees at the head of the stretch?

We value wins on how overpowering they were, who was in the field, and what adversity was overcome. Animal Kingdom gets bonus points for all these factors.

Cassandra.Says 30 Jan 2012 9:50 AM

RANAGULZION

So you're on the Pletcher bandwagon again? Wow! Bet LAT is proud of him.

Mike Relva 30 Jan 2012 10:50 AM

Pletcher can win prep races, that's about it. He could have half the field and he still won't hit the board in the Derby.

Stevebiscuit 30 Jan 2012 12:46 PM

Mike Relva,

I was one of the first ones, along with Criminal Type, on the Union Rags waggon and I see no reason to get off.  However I have the greatest of respect for Todd Pletcher's record in the Derby prep races and have been warning the Pletcher detractors on here that his 3YOs are a force to reckon with. That's it. Five of his charges are on my top twelve Derby aspirants list.    

Ranagulzion 30 Jan 2012 4:01 PM

I hear that they have magical hay in the Pletcher barn. They import it from Columbia for the slow workers, and Jamaica for the rank horses. You should all jump on board. I hear it is lonely at the top, and Todd is starting to wonder why he is all alone....

Like Rana, I see how loaded Pletcher is again this year. It is hard to deny the numbers. He will make all kinds of noise on the TC trail. You can keep hating on him and not betting him, and I will keep caashing tickets while the haters keep getting me juicy odds! Thanks

Billy's Empire 30 Jan 2012 4:49 PM

Jason,

Hoep you had a GREAT time at Gulfstream and got to see Awesome Feather and one of my very faves, Mucho Macho Man win their respective races. IF they both stay sound and healthy I would expect they will be top older horses in their divisions this year. It was SO awesome to see them both come back and win!!

If you were there PLEASE do tell how it went!!

Afleet Treet 30 Jan 2012 7:31 PM

Cassandra Says,

Afleet Alex's Preakness STILL gives me goosebumps to watch. That horse was and is one of my faves ever (I just about melted when I met him in KY...what a sweet horse he is)...His Preakness victory was perhaps the MOST amazing recovery I have ever seen and then to see the way he came back in three weeks and annihilated the Belmont field! While not nearly as impressive by margin of victory, Afleet Alex's final quarter was ran even faster than the mighty Secretariat. OH!! If only Giacomo and Closing Argument hadn't nipped him at the wire I am certain he had what it took to win the entire TC!! The jockey even said it was his ride that cost Alex the race because I firmly believe that while nice horses, Giacomo and Closing Argument were not necessarily better horses. ALEX WAS AWESOME!

Afleet Treet 30 Jan 2012 7:35 PM

ahhh, the Preakness Alex won was awesome. I was in a wedding in South Carloina, so I could not watch it live, but I remember having a dream a few days before that he won by 5.5 legnths, so I bet quite a bit on him. Without that stumble, he wins by 5.5.... He was an awesome horse, another horse that people speculated had distance limitations b/c of his sire, but ignored the fact that he had a world record holder at 1.5 miles on the dam side. off the top of my head, Hawkster I think was the name. Now I have to look up the pedigree again

Billy's Empire 31 Jan 2012 10:55 AM

Is this Eclipse Award Review article from 2011 or 2012?

Bob from Boston 31 Jan 2012 1:41 PM

Ranagulzion,

You always have the last word because you are never wrong. I hope the Pletcher barn has something better than Algorithms. I don't think anyone is surprised when Pletcher wins prep races. With 300+ horses in training he should be winning. I actually had win bets on Soaring Stocks and El Padrino, they beat up on weak horses. I was more impressed with the front running wins by Redding Colliery and Aqsaam. Ron The Greek was the best horse on saturday. Lezcano dropped him to far back just before the far turn and cost himself the win. Consortium was awful, I hope he is okay. So which Pletcher horse is going to win the triple crown this year? Oh I forgot, you have already declared Union Rags as the next triple crown winner. Keep an eye on Alpha this saturday, he will improve again.

Forbidden Apple 31 Jan 2012 2:33 PM

Afleet: I wound up not going to Gulfstream on Saturday. My son wanted to go to the beach instead. Had to make the family sacrifice.

Awesome Feather is indeed awesome.

Jason Shandler 31 Jan 2012 3:07 PM

True family man Jason.  I admire that.

LAZMANNICK 31 Jan 2012 4:26 PM

Which beach?  There are some great ones down there.

Bob from Boston 31 Jan 2012 5:19 PM

Mike Relva,

Regarding Pletcher and the Life At Ten issue, one shouldn't hold a grudge forever. I too was upset about it but the ownwers of the mare appear to be forgiving so why shouldn't we? Lets move on from that. Its Kentucky Derby fever time Bro and the Todd squad are on fire.

Ranagulzion 31 Jan 2012 5:33 PM

Delray

Jason Shandler 31 Jan 2012 6:26 PM

You have to admit that Affirmed and Seattle Slew in the 1978 Marlboro Cup was pretty spectacular.  The first and probably last time 2 Triple Crown winners face off.  

1979 was pretty cool as well with a 3 year old Spectacular Bid taking on and older Affirmed in the Jockey Gold Cup.  

But speaking of Giacomo, Alysheba, who also went into the Derby with only a Maiden score to his credit, did pretty well in the late 80s facing off against a rival Kentucky Derby winner.  I think he ran 3-4 sub 2:00 races in a single year.

And what about Winning Color's trifecta of the Santa Anita Oaks, Santa Anita Derby, and the Kentucky Derby?  I doubt this will ever be repeated.  

Householder 31 Jan 2012 7:58 PM

Alysheba was probably the best physically looking horse that I have ever seen.  He would just kick his hind legs up in the walking circle.  Rock Hard Ten or Quality Road would be a close second.  The later were just covered with muscle.  

Householder 01 Feb 2012 2:49 PM

RANAGULZION

Guess you heard about Pletcher losing one of his clients who is moving his horses to Mott and Brown. That's what I call smart.

Mike Relva 01 Feb 2012 7:36 PM

Mike Relva,

How much do you know about that situation?  A client switching trainers can be for any number of reasons. Also, who's to say that it is a loss to Pletcher?  It could be a relief ...I don't know but your grudge shows in your remarks.

What has the trainer done to you ...why have you been against him from even before the LAT situation?

Ranagulzion 01 Feb 2012 10:18 PM

Pletcher HATERS keep betting.......you are just plain stupid.....ranagulzion almost always makes sense.....you all just knock whos on top......get used to it! pletcher willl be on top for a long time!

KY VET 02 Feb 2012 12:23 AM

KY VET

Please.   lmao

Mike Relva 03 Feb 2012 10:27 AM

Ranagulzion

Why don't you ask a few why they harbor a "grudge" regarding a certain trainer that actually displays class and is a credit to racing?

Mike Relva 03 Feb 2012 10:30 AM


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