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Baffert Back in the Mix

156 Comments

When trying to find West Coast Derby contenders, you always start with Bob Baffert and then work your way down from there. That tried and true rule didn't look so good after Liaison and Sky Kingdom, thought to be two of his top 3-year-olds, turned in clunkers in the Robert Lewis Stakes on Feb. 4.

But this is Baffert we're talking about, so those that discounted his current crop after that race should have known better. On Feb. 9, the good-looking Giant's Causeway colt Fed Biz responded with an impressive 5 3/4-length allowance win going a mile at Santa Anita. Almost immediately, several pundits proclaimed him to be Baffert's top threat.

Then two days later Baffert sent out another potential monster, Bodemeister, who dominated by nearly 10 lengths in a maiden special weight, also at a mile. And just like that, the three-time Derby winner was back on track.

On Thursday, Baffert made it clear that he is not ready to talk about the next spots for any of his top 3-year-olds, but he did talk about each one individually, and mentioned one horse that could be a major factor, if not for the Triple Crown, then later this year.

Although he wouldn't directly admit it, I certainly got the feeling that Fed Biz is the one that Baffert is most keen on:

"I think the natural talent is there with Fed Biz. And he has a huge pedigree to back it up, which makes him more intriguing. I know he likes two turns better. I like the fact that when he does run he's going really fast and just keeps going, and he doesn't even take a deep breath. It's pretty impressive.

"(The Derby) is a long way off. Everyone is dying for a horse to move up or move down. But until that last prep it doesn't matter. It's that last prep that tells you who your Derby horse is."

As most everyone knows, Bodemeister is named for Baffert's son, Bode:

"Bodemeister looked pretty damn impressive. He came out of the race pretty well. I'm sort of surprised by what he did, but this is the time of year that we want horses to surprise us. That day we just sent him on the lead and he kept going. He's going to be tough. He's a nice horse. His first race was very good too. We were a little late getting him going, but I'll tell you one thing: I've never seen, a slow, fit, seasoned 3-year-old win the Derby. You still have to have that talent."

On Liaison, who came back to work a bullet four furlongs in :47-flat 11 days after his disastrous Robert Lewis:

"Everyone is forgetting about him. You have to throw that race out. He's a better horse than that. He worked really well coming back. He just needs more distance. He broke and got a little rank with blinkers, then had a little trouble settling from off the pace. They just kept on going. Without blinkers he'll be fine. He just got a little fresh I think."

"I have no idea where I'm running any of them yet. Everyone wants to know, but I won't know until that week. They are all nominated everywhere."

On Sky Kingdom: "I was very disappointed. We'll figure it out. He hasn't worked back since. He came out of (the Robert Lewis) with a little bit of a bruised foot."

As for the one that may be making a splash in the near future:

"I have one I've always liked, but we're way behind on him; probably for down the road. His name is Paynter (by Awesome Again). He's running 5 1/2 furlongs on Saturday (at Santa Anita). It's too short for him, but it's a start."

156 Comments:

Tossing Liaison from Derby consideration based on one race is ludicrous. They'll take the blinkers off and then you'll see the real Liaison.

Stevebiscuit 17 Feb 2012 1:03 PM

Jason,

Did you have a contact or person who connected you with Baffert to discuss Liaison?

Bob from Boston 17 Feb 2012 2:02 PM

Jason, this guy Baffert has something no one else has. I'm not guessing anything illegal, but horses love to run fast for him. His whole barn runs the same way--either close or on the pace and then they ding-dong it the whole way home. They don't like the zoysia and they never have one run from the rear of the pack. Sorta like the complete opposite of  Graham Motion. Funny how that works. Every trainer is good at something. The late Bobby Frankel got the most out of older horses, usually over the turf; Whittingham the same. Woody Stephens, my all-time personal favorite, won five straight Belmonts but also won five Kentucky Oaks,  three Sanfords, four Futurities and won with milers Danzig and  Devil's Bag and turf routes like the D.C. International (twice), the Yellow Ribbon and E.P. Taylor. He did it all. But Baffert knows how to get all the speed out of every one of the horses in his barn.

steve from st louis 17 Feb 2012 3:25 PM

Great article Jason.  I just saw Fed Biz for the first time yesterday and he really did look good.  I look forward to watching his next race.

Draynay 17 Feb 2012 4:41 PM

Fed Biz looked good but Bodemeister is the monster on the rise. I hereby predict that he'll be the big horse out there in California very soon. His performance at this stage reminds me a lot of Curlin as a 3YO. Like Curlin was, he'll be a big threat in the Preakness. I believe that the Derby may arrive a wee bit too soon for him.

Ranagulzion 17 Feb 2012 5:02 PM

The Derby is just 77 days away and it's hard to imagine any of them except maybe Fed Biz will be ready to face Union Rags.  They all seem too far behind without enough time.

Draynay 17 Feb 2012 8:11 PM

Knowing Baffert he will throw everything he has at Creative Cause who beat up Drill pretty badly in the Norfolk.  He could have 2-3 horses in the Santa Anita Derby.  Remember Baffert/Zayat planned to gang up on the Pamplemoose.  

But CC has ran against the likes of Union Rags and Hansen.

Bodemeister.  I guess we have to start talking about breaking the "unraced as a 2-year old rule."

That Feb 11th race would set him up pretty well for the "acid" test in the San Felipe March 10th.

Householder 17 Feb 2012 8:20 PM

I just saw the greatest mare I have ever seen take on the very best and leave them in the dust.  Black Caviar is simply unreal.  20 in a row here we come.  Can you imagine a mare taking on the best and winning 20 in a row ?  I hope she is coming to SA for the Breeders Cup.  I think it would be great for Santa Anita fans to see the greatest mare ever up close and personal.

Draynay 18 Feb 2012 1:11 AM

MISTER Bafferts personal pedigree contains the perfect combination. He is just enough cowboy & just enough horseman. The combo provides the near perfect race trainer. many cheers for Bob Baffert.

an ole railbird 18 Feb 2012 1:53 AM

I'm glad Baffert has two new shooters, and Pletcher is loaded....Mike Harrington's Empire Way will continue to fly under the radar, but he closed into a strong come home time in the Robert Lewis, and a horse that can close at 'Anita can really close at Churchill, as Ferdinand and Alysheba proved--both at big prices! I am getting a strong case of Derby Fever, especially after last years unbelievably weak division! I thought the BC Juvy was very strong, thought all three were very legit--right now there seems to be contenders coming out of the woodwork, and they all seem to look good! Pletcher and Baffert have their usual strong hands, especially Pletcher--I don't think Mike Harrington would trade places with either one...

Matthew W 18 Feb 2012 3:02 AM

Am playin two tom, at Santa Anita, both big longshots, both with big shots, I believe! I love turf races the most, by far, and in race 7, I like a 20-1 shot, #1 Bud I Crushed It, to outrun his odds! His come hohe three races back, at this distance, would take this. his next two races were vs much tougher, and he ran well while hanging at 1 1/4, then was outclassed vs a very salty bunch at 6 1/2...back to a mile/and much class relief--Bud ran the race of his life three back and he hasn't lost form, I believe, and even though he turns around after only nine days, a similar 10-day turnaround preceded his career best race.....after I get my winnings, I might have a victory beer, maybe a carved sandwich, then saunter over to the betting windows, where I'll move on a horse in race 10, the getaway race--another of my favorite kind of races to play/win: the final race of the card! I like a speedy horse on the outside part of the track, #8 Back At You, who worked longer than the race, and it was a real solid work! Attracts a solid jock (Martin Garca), a speed jock--will box him with #1 What A Rush, and play him across the board, 12-1 and I'll take it--right down the street to the sushi bar, where I'll savor my two longshot hits, and my spider roll....

Matthew W 18 Feb 2012 3:35 AM

PS: Eddie Truman, trainer of Back At You, 0 for 3 this year and 2 for 66 in 2011---won his first race of the year Friday (yesterday)

Matthew W 18 Feb 2012 3:38 AM

American act will beat creative cause. He beat bode last out and will be tough to beat tomorrow.

Billy's Empire 18 Feb 2012 10:32 AM

Hhandsome mike wins the el camino. He has the best rags in the race and if runs back to his 9.5 should take this on tapeta

Billy's Empire 18 Feb 2012 10:35 AM

Off topic, but Black Caviar with a sub-9 split...holy cow!

Tiznowbaby 18 Feb 2012 11:50 AM

A horse with only 2 starts lifetime and who only broke its maiden in the middle part of February has no business taking part in the Kentucky Derby. There is no way he can he can get the race-fitness he needs for the Derby in the short time remaining. And it could ruin the horse forever if they 'go for it' despite its inexperience.

Remember Atswhatimtalknbout in 2003? Clearly a talented horse, didn't race at 2 but progressed mightily during the Santa Anita meet and went off 5th choice in the Derby. Finished a fast-closing 4th and never recovered from it.

Please everybody stop talking about every maiden winner at SA or GP as 'a Derby prospect.' They should be past the n1x stage by now at least.

Pedigree Ann 18 Feb 2012 12:03 PM

Looking forward to see how Secret Circle does in the SW on Monday.  Hope Bob does not rush Bodemeister.

Russian Greek to win with Lady of Fifty second in the El Camino Real.

Creative Cause will cruise in the San Vicente.  Good Luck to all!

trackjack 18 Feb 2012 12:16 PM

Lucky Chappy in the El Camino.

the_wiz 18 Feb 2012 12:17 PM

sad clown:

Could you please stop mentioning Fed Biz between now and......how about May 6th?

Please don't curse this horse by telling us you like his chances.

Minnesota Kid 18 Feb 2012 12:20 PM

See, Stevebiscuit. Janson did a nice article on Your favorite trainer too.

Rolling Thundar 18 Feb 2012 12:27 PM

Oops, meant a sub-10 for Black Caviar. She's fantastic.

Tiznowbaby 18 Feb 2012 3:01 PM

Draynay

The Santa Anita fans have already seen the greatest mare ever, up close and personal.  If Black Cavier ever did come to Santa Anita they might get a chance to see the greatest sprinting mare ever up close and personal.  But if the greatest sprinting mare is so good then I wonder if they would enter her in the BCC?  We know that wouldn't happen unless they shortened it to six furlongs.  I wonder if they would enter her in the BC Sprint?  We know that wouldn't happen because it's on dirt.  Stick to something you are an expert on Dray like picking Derby also rans

LAZMANNICK 18 Feb 2012 4:29 PM

After that performance by Animal Kingdom there is no point in ever talking about Game On Dude again.

Draynay 18 Feb 2012 4:54 PM

Horses that dont change leads.......at all or late, BAD NEWS.....FED and BODE...for the DERBY?................you people are really loving horses that are not that good....

KY VET 18 Feb 2012 5:01 PM

And by the way Stevebiscuit, Did you see that Madien Race at GP. Where the Non-Training Pletcher horse Scored another victory for the incompriable trainer. But Bobby B, has had a couple of more winners today himself. Just keeping it honest Bro.

Rolling Thundar 18 Feb 2012 6:34 PM

Lazmannick -

A lot of people in other countries around the world could not care less about the Breeders' Cup, especially the 'little' races aside from the Turf, Mile and Classic.

Black Caviar just won a race worth over Au$750K. Last weekend she won one worth over Au$400K and the race she was pointing toward next weekend is worth Au$500K+. The BC Turf Sprint purse isn't going to attract her people.

She is going to Royal Ascot because that is where the prestige races are for turf sprinters. She may go to France, or Hong Kong because they have prestigious turf sprints. There is no international prestige in winning the BC Turf Sprint. Sorry to break it to you.

Pedigree Ann 18 Feb 2012 8:56 PM

Lazmannaick, you are right about Black Caviar being a great SPRINTER on turf. Santa Anita did see the greatest race mare ever, you are right about that too. Black Caviar will either go to Dubai or Ascot. The race next week is out according to Moody. This last race pushed her to her limits. Regardless, whenever she races again, it will be a sprint. I even wonder if she and Frankel will meet up because he is more of a miler and she is more of a sprinter. She is the greatest female sprinter ever in all probability. The greatest sprinter of both sexes was Dr. Fager. The greatest race mare of all is Zenyatta. Zenyatta would have inhaled her at 10 furlongs. She proved her brilliance on dirt and synthetics at the longer distances and against tougher competition in the BCC. If Black Caviar races and wins in 9 or 10 furlong races we can talk.

Paula Higgins 18 Feb 2012 10:48 PM

The great creative cause!!!!! Bafferts gonna throw the kitchen sink at what? a horse that lost to who? in one of the weakest 2 yr old cup beyers ever? The great creative cause?  Please!!!!!!!!!

KY VET 18 Feb 2012 11:59 PM

Gee pedigree Ann

Thanks for breaking it to me.  Do you have anything else to break to me?

LAZMANNICK 18 Feb 2012 11:59 PM

Pedigree Ann, I could be wrong, but I got the feeling Laz's post was dripping with sarcasm.

Tiznowbaby 19 Feb 2012 12:12 AM

Baffert won ewverything today---his maiden breaker at GG Fields, Midnight Crooner--probably would've won the El Camino--Mama Kimbo looked spectacular at Anita, breaking her maiden...and they threw everything but the kitchen sink at his filly Ellafitz....Paynter also looked lights out--what a day for Baffert, he is coming on strong... Animal Kingdom looked great but too bad he's off to Dubai....

Matthew W 19 Feb 2012 12:21 AM

Junebugred takes Div I / Secret Circle wins Div II of the Southwest.

Before I logged in here, I told myself, I bet Draynay will be all over this Triple Crown Mania talking about Union Rags as the best horse in the world and will win the derby...

JayJay 19 Feb 2012 3:04 AM

What was so impressive about Animal Kingdom?

Forbidden Apple 19 Feb 2012 8:33 AM

The 2012 Kentucky Derby winner will most likely be a horse that isn't on anyone's radar at this time.  Who was talking about Animal Kingdom, Super Saver and Mine That Bird in February of their wins?  Nobody.  Lazmannick once again you prove that the water in CA needs to be checked. You and Bisquick have continuously shown that it hinders reasonable thinking.  Personal Ensign never once raced at SA.  

Sylvester 19 Feb 2012 10:15 AM

Lazmannick Black Caviar is going to travel the world (over mountains and everything) to take on the world's best.  Not hide at one track pretending to be the best.

Draynay 19 Feb 2012 11:04 AM

Pedigree Ann

Thanks for the advice.  Gee, I didn’t realize that I was one of maybe three or four people that follow horse racing that wasn’t aware of Black Caviar’s intended schedule.  I guess I also continue to have my head buried in the sand and wasn’t aware of the “disdain” or is it “ridicule” or maybe “who cares – it’s just another series of races” mind-set that the rest of the racing world feels towards the Breeders Cup.  Of course back in the days of the DC International, Canadian International and the early BC programs when the best Europeans did come in groves it might be best to comprehend the fact that it was because of the money.  It’s always about the money.

It would also be nice if instead of being so full of yourself you would make an attempt to understand what is meant by sarcasm, especially when the post was directed towards your friend and alter ego Draynay.  One last thing.  I don’t know if you understand what is meant when someone says “if”.  It is a two letter word and sometimes when we see it in a sentence, like in my second sentence when I wrote “If Black Caviar ever did come to Santa Anita” it gives us a true indication of what was meant by the statement.  Have a nice day Pedigree Ann.

LAZMANNICK 19 Feb 2012 11:54 AM

Draynay, you do realize Animal Kingdom was running against an allowance field on turf right? Now you think he can take on the best dirt horse in America? That sounds like your logic.

Rolling Thundar, Bob Baffert is not my favorite trainer, but I do think he is the best.

Stevebiscuit 19 Feb 2012 2:28 PM

A turf sprinter being considered the best race mare ever? Not in this country! Turf sprint races are so insignificant the BC Turf Sprint isn't even a grade 1, it's just a filler race on the card. Nobody goes to the BC to see that race. Nobody's going to care if Black Caviar comes to the Breeders Cup unless she's running in the Classic or at least the Ladies Classic. Those are the championship races.

JJW 19 Feb 2012 5:50 PM

Draynay,

Yeah sure, Black Caviar is freakin' awesome; we get it already. Stop drooling on yourself. It's obvious you are only babbling about Black Caviar as a thinly veiled pretense to rile up the Zenyatta fans. Sorry,but they at least have moved on with their lives and aren't taking your poison bait.

Age of Reason 19 Feb 2012 6:18 PM

Unbridled's Note morning lined at 10/1 in the Southwest looks intriguing to me. I think he'll run a good race.

the_wiz 19 Feb 2012 8:45 PM

JJW do you really believe anything you say ?  Black Caviar is the fastest horse in the world right now and has done something I have never seen.  Winning 19 sprints in a row ?  Unheard of.  This mare does it with such ease one G1 race after another.  To see a mare take on the very best again and again and win is something very special.

Draynay 19 Feb 2012 9:02 PM

This is what I know.  Animal Kingdom looked very impressive and the way he did it spoke volumes.  He only really ran the last 100 yards.  I guess I saw something you didn't but he was very monster like to me.  Game On Who ?

Draynay 19 Feb 2012 9:13 PM

The "great" creative cause lost? There goes the hall of fame......

KY VET 19 Feb 2012 9:47 PM

Draynay, you are being a bad to the bone again LOL. Just go to Youtube and look at Black Caviar's last 2 races and then look at Zenyatta's Breeders Cup races (yes, including the one she lost). You tell me who the better horse is. You would have to be blind not to see the difference and I know you are not blind. Black Caviar is undeniably great at what she does, which is sprint, but there is no contest in my mind as to which are the more difficult races to run. If you have two great horses, there will be things that separate them, making one greater than the other, and in this case, it's distance. Of course where Black Caviar races next, is probably going to be about money, which is their choice to make. If it were me, I would skip Dubai and send her up against Frankel at Ascot, but I don't think that will happen. Many people think she can get slightly longer distances, that would be one way to find out.

Paula Higgins 19 Feb 2012 9:48 PM

One misconception people make is, that trainers know how their horse is feeling....if horses could talk, it would be easy. Many times thru the years, i have predicted horses that have a problem...only to see them get hurt...."don't you think the trainer would know?" ive been asked.....well here is a perfect example...DRILL!....horses have many kinds of problems. from major to minor.....bad sign #1 his bad 1st race....then he started getting good....baffert knows talent, and was sky high on him....Drill was doing goofy things like changing leads late, running funny....i knew something was bothering him....then he started running bad....to my surprise baffert ran the heck out of him! Bad efforts! He kept running him! So i assumed the problem wasnt major...then i told my friend that the tide was gonna turn soon...why? running bad doesnt take anything out of a horse...bad races help a horse get good believe it or not. Drill showed improvement his next start then wins today.....Ends up that baffert backed off on his training....makes sense! This is the key to being a great handicapper, knowing whos coming around TODAY!  THERE IS NO BEST HORSE! ONLY BEST THAT DAY! somthing beginners(DRAYNAY) just dont get!

KY VET 19 Feb 2012 10:32 PM

junebug red.......1st division.....2nd division....secret circle? or horse better than people think...the A-KING? I think the king at a price will run big...if he gets 1st or 2nd, ill be fine.....................PRO!   WIN/place both...

KY VET 19 Feb 2012 11:31 PM

black caviar races against aged geldings who should be retired and adopted out as children's pets

bj 19 Feb 2012 11:48 PM

Baffert showed with Drill why he continues to beat the other Cali trainers senseless(in the standings).

I would venture a guess that well over 50% of trainers would have laid up Drill before the San Vicente.  Drill had run out of the money his last 4 races, and there were many voices saying it was time to give the horse a break.

But Baffert, and I love him for this, is stubborn.  Drill continued to look and train well, so Baffert thought why not keep going.  How many chances is a 3 year old sprinter going to have to win another gr.2?  Once Drill is forced to face open older horses, Baffert probably realized that the pickings would be slim.  In the San Vicente Drill was facing a vulnerable favorite on the comeback, and a horse coming from a straight maiden in American Act.  Why not take a shot?  It was the right move.

Now, Drill is a two-time graded stakes winner(a gr.1 and a gr.2).  Baffert's done this with a horse that can't Beyer over 90(and didn't Beyer over 90 today).

While many were calling for preventive rest, Baffert fortunately chose racing Drill over keeping him in a stall.  These are racehorses, and you absolutely can be too conservative.

On the subject of Creative Cause, I was disappointed in his effort.  Yes, it was strictly a comeback, but this is a horse that has run fast at 5.5 furlongs and won a stakes at 7 furlongs.  Finishing 3rd in a 4 horse field isn't what Easy Goer did in the Swale back in 89' at 7 furlongs.  Not to compare Creative Cause with Easy Goer, but a legitmately superior horse wins this San Vicente, prep or not.  Just haven't see any "wow factor" from Creative Cause.

One thing should be clear.  If horses like Hansen, Creative Cause, and Union Rags haven't improved from their 2 year old form, then they have already been surpassed.  The Bc Juvy was a solid race, but it wasn't like when Uncle Mo won and he was 5-10 lengths superior to anything else out there(up to 8.5 furlongs).  Hansen has already been spanked by Algorithms, and now Creative Cause runs 3rd out of 4.  If Union Rags is the same horse he was on BC day, he's not winning the Fountain of Youth.  It's all about who has improved, and then ultimately for the Derby, who can get 10 furlongs.  

GunBow 20 Feb 2012 12:20 AM

As for Fed Biz and Bodemeister, both did something very important, display elite level talent.  But they both have much to prove.

Fed Biz and Bodemeister received dream set-ups in their last races.  Fed Biz was able to sit behind a likely distance challenged horse as it went very fast, and then inherited the lead when that one stopped.  With nothing coming from behind, the race was over.  Fed Biz is going to see much more legit speed, and then have to deal with other pace pressers who want the same spot/position he does.

Bodemeister was allowed to set an unchallenged pace, a pace that was quite modest on top of it.  Bodemiester was able to cruise, uncontested, early and then break open the race before anyone could muster a run from behind.  Bodemeister certainly finished well, but a good horse should finish well when given everything his way early.

GunBow 20 Feb 2012 12:28 AM

Baffert's Paynter looked awesome yesterday, watching the replay,  and Baffert's Awesomemundo looked very good on-track crushing an allowance for older mares today.  

Baffert's Ellafitz will likely get the attention for the Santa Margarita, but if someone goes with her early in that race, Baffert found his "B" option with Awesomemundo.

It's Baffert's world out here.

GunBow 20 Feb 2012 12:33 AM

Paula Higgins:

Stop talking stupidity. Zen wudve no doubt beat Black Caviar at 9 or 10 furlongs. But trust me, if Zen was to run at 5 or 6 furlongs, Black Caviar would have inhaled her. So talk about reality. They are both great mares at their own respective distances. Every horse is not bred to race at the same distance. The difference is, Moss and Sherrifs didn't have that much courage to let the big Z fully prove what she was capable of. She was much better than what she was put up against in most of her career. Black Caviar is running against the best in the world in the best competitions against males and females and flying across the continents. That in itself is an achievement. With all due respect to Zenyatta, but people around the globe outside America do not respect her accomplishments as much as they do Black Caviar or Frankel or Sea the Stars. Just agree to it and move on. Zen was put to real task in probably 3 of her 20 races. The rest were a run away for her, she was too good.

sharjyl 20 Feb 2012 2:23 AM

JJW & Laz:

Guess what, the connections of Black Caviar won't even give a crap about BC Sprint. And trust me, BC Championships would be begging for Black Caviar to run here. Give me the real big names of racing which have previously run in Breeders Cup Championships ? Out of hundreds of horses run, how many international stars have landed here ? Even out of our local stars, only Zenyatta, Curlin and may be another couple had some international stature. It is one hyped tournament. Poor management, poor star attraction. Black Caviar won't land here even if BC begs for it. She is too special for an event like BC Sprint. Or if they raise the purse to $5 million, then I don't know if they consider it

sharjyl 20 Feb 2012 2:30 AM

Jason, a lot of people in Northern California must read the blog. I post to bet Handsome Mike, he gets bet down and goes off as the favorite.  HA

Creative Cause, did exactly what his trainer said he would, have a paid workout. When he stretches out, he could blow the doors off. Big Race(s)today at Oaklawn.

Billy's Empire 20 Feb 2012 8:50 AM

I have to disagree with this story.  I don't believe Baffert has anything to really talk about.

Draynay 20 Feb 2012 10:55 AM

LAZMANNICK, you've got to stop taking their bait! ♥

Rachel NH 20 Feb 2012 12:23 PM

Over the 40 years I've been involved with racing, I've had to deal with plenty of people who believe that racing overseas has to be worse than that in the US, otherwise why wouldn't they flock to the US and win all our races?

So maybe I jumped too fast to defend a mare who has dominated a division in which Australian horses are proven world-class.  And you are right, sarcasm can be hard to read without knowing the person involved.

Pedigree Ann 20 Feb 2012 12:55 PM

Going for the .50cent P4 at Oaklawn ($48) :

1,4 with 6,2,11,8 with 9,2,10 with 7,11,3,2

Good luck everyone!

Trackjack : any tips on picking jockeys / trainer for RTTR ?

JayJay 20 Feb 2012 1:56 PM

I just saw Black Caviar blow by some very very good horses on a weeks rest.  Greatest mare I have ever seen.

Draynay 20 Feb 2012 2:59 PM

here is a tip Jayjay. Julien Leparoux!!!!!!!!!!!!! Monster

Billy's Empire 20 Feb 2012 3:17 PM

Mama Kimbo the odd Baffert firster who paid well--and I thought she was more impressive than Paynter, thought she really quickened--and don't forget Midnight Crooner at Golden Gate, who set a strong pace then drew off with force! Within one hour on Sat, Bob Baffert won three, and I mean blowouts! He may be late for the Derby--but I think he's gonna have a torrid Summer! Creative Cause looked ok--that's a hard track to close on--against good horses, and those two in front of him are both good horses--Harrington doesn't need a win there, he got what he needed, they have enough earnings to map out their own plan, so they're fine--besides, I want Rosario to jump over to Empire Way--they might need to discuss shipping Empire--to a more closer-friendly surface--they don't have the luxory of mapping out his plan in comfort--they need graded earnings, they could not get them in the Cash Call, now they need them, he's a real comer, maybe stay put, and go to Pimlico....or ship twice, get the graded earnings and then go and get the roses?

Matthew W 20 Feb 2012 3:36 PM

Sharjyl

Take a breath.  Go watch a hockey game of something.  Who really cares whether the connections of Black Caviar care about the Breeders Cup Sprint?  It seems to me that the owner of our HOY in 2009 didn’t give a crap about the BCC and that was with a $5M purse.

My point is that back in the day when Japan Racing and Hong Kong Racing was very low key and there wasn’t even a Dubai World Carnival, the top European horses came to N/A to race in the Canadian Championship, DC International, The early runnings of the Arlington Million and the early runnings of the BC Turf and Turf Mile.  You and a few others can act as condescending towards the sport in N/A as you want, but it isn’t the lack of respect for N/A racing that changed the scene.  It’s the fact that there are now other venues where purses are large and the races have gained in prestige so why travel over here.  Great routers like Dalhia, Exceller (when he raced in Europe), All Along, Snow Knight, Youth, Alez France, Dancing Brave, Peebles, Sir Ivor, April Run, etc. (there are plenty more), raced here in the 70’s and early 80’s and there were still many champions that made the trip throughout the 90’s.  Where do you think that the inaugural million dollar purses began?

This bit about Black Caviar coming to N/A for $5M is also difficult for me to comprehend.  She is scheduled to run in the Golden Shaheen with a $2M purse.  The Diamond Jubilee has a 400 Pound (approx. $600K) purse.  Those purses are nice, but not exceptional.

It would be nice to see Black Caviar come to N/A, but it was also nice to see the unbeatable Dancing Brave come here too and run in the BC Turf.  BTW that race was the inaugural “But I have an excuse” race in horse racing.

And if you as a horse racing fan don’t think that the Breeders cup is special then maybe you really should follow hockey.  

LAZMANNICK 20 Feb 2012 3:40 PM

That's a helluva horse who could dial down from 7 furlongs from off the pace--to a straight 5 fur 750k purse--all within one week! She (the great Black Caviar) was tested the other day--they asked her to prove her mettle--she showed them all--now give her a rest cuz she has earned it!

Matthew W 20 Feb 2012 3:41 PM

Correction Draynay, Black Caviar was the greatest female turf sprinter you've ever seen. At a mile and a quarter on ANY surface, no mare in history could've been capable of beating Zenyatta.

Stevebiscuit 20 Feb 2012 6:43 PM

jayjay,

 You didn't ask me but I'll give you my two cents. I would think that you would have to take Pletcher and Baffert as your trainers.

longwaytomay 20 Feb 2012 6:49 PM

Bob Baffert:   WOW!! Gun Bow, you are right!!  It is Baffert's world, and why isn't he racing in Florida?   Who is he sending to New York?

skyfire 20 Feb 2012 7:22 PM

Stevebiscuit, I was there to see the State Restricted poly Champion at Churchill to finally take on the best on a dirt track.  I saw her get whipped for 300 yards and the best she could do is get within a head.  Black Caviar has won against the best again and again in blazing times and doing it with ease.  Black Caviar is the best Mare I have ever seen and she is undefeated need I say more ?

Draynay 20 Feb 2012 7:57 PM

I guess it's Baffert's world in Arkansas as well.

Sweeping both divisions of the Southwest.  Not a bad weekend for Bob.

Castaway looked very impressive visually, humbling the 1st division that included Junebugred, a leading local horse.  A big, long striding horse, Castaway looks the part of a Derby contender, and one has to like that he closed his final sixteenth in a shade over 6 and 2.  By Street Sense, Castaway has every right to stretch out further.

Now some perspective on the performance.  Castaway received a dream trip in the Southwest, sitting right to the outside of a sprinter while up on a soft half of 48 and 6 furlongs in 1:12 and 3.  Given this advantage, and given he's probably more talented than anyone in the race anyways, his widening margin of victory is maybe not quite as impressive as it appeared at first blush.  Also note that the rest of the field was fairly much bunched about 4-8 lengths behind him; this tells us no one else in the crowd stepped up to run a race that would have challenged had the race been run as a single division(and that those behind him are a equal and modest group-although to Longview Drive's defense, he received a poor trip and is much better near the pace).

Secret Circle had to struggle alot more than Castaway to win his division of the Southwest, and with a sprinter's reputation might not be considered as a big a Derby threat as his stablemate.  But make no mistake, Secret Circle was more impressive than Castaway today.

While Castaway was able to sit up on a slow pace, Secret Circle was dueling with the tough Scatman through a half in 46 and 4.  Secret Circle and Scatman completed the first 6 furlongs in 1:11 and 1, about 7 lengths faster than Castaway.  And though Castaway did outfinish Secret Circle, the difference in their final sixteenths wasn't great enough(12.56 compared with 12.85) to off-set the much faster earlier pace of Secret Circle.  Thus, Secret Circle's final time was a full second faster than Castaway's.  

It's hard to know if Secret Circle wants much more than a mile.  We know he has brilliant speed, running that insane first quarter in the BC Juvy Sprint, but this is now two solid performances at a mile in a row.  By Eddington out of a Dixieland Band mare, it's not out of the realm to think Secret Circle could get 9 furlongs.

Scatman clearly ran well in 2nd.  Based on times, Scatman would have won the 1st division by 4.5 lengths.  Distance has to be a concern given he was losing ground to Secret Circle in the stretch, but he had every reason to tire.  And, very importantly, recognize that Secret Circle was the only horse Scatman lost ground to in the stretch; through the lane, both Secret Circle and Scatman actually opened up more gound on every other horse in the field.

I suppose one can make the case that Adirondack King ran decently to be 3rd.  I think some are going to make a big deal that he was "closing" to be 3rd.  But while Adirondack King did put some space between himself and the others, he lost ground to Secret Circle and Scatman in the stretch, this even though the quick pace should have flattered his kick.  So, he actualy wasn't "closing".  More impressive to me is that his time would have made him a close 2nd to Castaway had he run in the 1st division.  Of course, had he run in the 1st division, he wouldn't have been given nearly as fast a pace to run into.

In the big picture, the Southwest shows that the Baffert program is really humming along.  After 3 springs dealing with synthetics, Baffert has hit full stride in the second year back to dirt out at Santa Anita.  With the dirt surface, Baffert is putting elite speed into horses bred to be very talented.  And, unlike last year, Baffert has a stable full of youngsters with classic pedigrees.  

GunBow 20 Feb 2012 8:00 PM

skyfire:

Why isn't Baffert racing in Florida?  I think a dude named Pletcher would have something to do with that.  And Pletcher doesn't come out here to Cali.  I think both realize they couldn't compete against the other's A Team with B-stringers.  Ask Asmussen how that's worked out so far in SoCal.

GunBow 20 Feb 2012 8:28 PM

For those who followed my Oaklawn P4, you're welcome :).  Not bad for a small ticket.  Secret Circle made me scream like a stuck pig but he came through.  I can talk about Black Caviar all day long but I thought I'd help you guys out win some real money hehe.

Jason : you're welcome, I'm sure you played my ticket  :)

BE : I thought about Julien but I don't know how many good horses he'll have for the prep races.  I'm not even sure he can win the preps with UR.  With Bejarano taking the Southwest, he's got a good chance in the Rebel with two horses to pick from.  I personally like Castaway over Secret Circle the way he won the 1st division.  SC looked all out trying to beat that 3 horse.

Longwaytomay : Yeah, I have both TP and BB right now.  I just thought maybe some other unknown trainers might be a good "longshot" pick.  I might drop TP and keep BB.  Watch him take all the prep races next weekend though just cause I said I'll drop him lol.

JayJay 20 Feb 2012 8:29 PM

sharjyl, as far as speaking stupidly (not stupidity, that's poor grammar or no grammar at all, take your pick), you have me beat there. Read my post, I ddn't say Black Caviar wouldn't beat Zenyatta at the shorter distances. In fact, Ms. Reading Comprehension 101, I didn't even address that point. What I DID say is that at the longer distances, Zenyatta would "inhale" Black Caviar. At the shorter/sprinter distances, many horses would beat Zenyatta.She never got going until 1/4 of the way through any race. My other point is this: the longer distances are the test of the greats. Black Caviar is a great sprinter and I admire her very much. But no one will ever talk about her in the same breath as Secretariat, Man O'War, Citation, Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager (who could also get longer and shorter  distances), Spectacular Bid, Sea The Stars, Red Rum, Ribot.. and yes, Zenyatta. As for Zenyatta not being on the British and Australian radars when she ran, you couldn't be more wong. She was widely covered by their media and they thought she was otherworldly. One Australian trainer described her 2010 Breeders Cup Classic race as the greatest race he had ever seen by a horse that lost in the 40 years he had been in the business. I read British internet coverage regularly to see what they thought of her and the Brits thought she hung the moon. Nice try. Here is the pathetic reality sharjyl, there are people like yourself, that look only at what she didn't do, and not at what she did do. But it is irrelevant, because her history is writ and it is one for the ages.

Paula Higgins 20 Feb 2012 9:06 PM

GunBow I have no idea what you are getting so excited about.  Baffert doesn't have anything that good.  I have seen better horses in a box of animal crackers.  California horses will do what they do best... show up and get beat badly.  Union Rags just seems much further ahead than anything I have seen.  74 days is not a lot of time to get better and beat him.

Draynay 20 Feb 2012 10:21 PM

Sharjyl you hit the nail on the head regarding Higgins. Bisquick I think it's time you wipe off all the kisses on that Zenyatta poster in your bedroom and take it down.  Move on.  Had all her races been on dirt she would have lost at least 5 of them.  NOT ONCE  did she face a filly with quick tactical speed on dirt.  If she did, she would've gotten beat.  Without question.  As Higgins stated, her history is "writ" and it is full of asterisks.  I'm looking forward to HDG, the two Awesome's, and Royal Delta mixing it up this year.  None of them will be hiding in CA.

Sylvester 20 Feb 2012 10:32 PM

Paula Higgins

Your words of wisdom will always be cherished by me.  I can tell by your posts that you are very knowledgeable about the sport and know what you are talking about.  There are a couple on here that could learn from you namely Sylvestor and of course Draynay.  Keep up with your good posts.

LAZMANNICK 21 Feb 2012 12:26 AM

Regarding the top ten horses by Time Form Rating and the Bloodhorse Top 100, only one horse in the Time Form Rating was a pure sprinter and that was Abernant.  Of the others, Tudor Minstrel was a miler and Brigadier Gerard, though thought of by many as being a miler, actually won five 10F races.  Judgment is still out on Frankel whether he is a 10F horse or not and I personally think he will be, but at least at this point he is a miler.  On the American list there are NO SPRINTERS.  In fact I don’t recall seeing a single pure sprinter in that top 100 other than TaWee.  Ta Wee only lost one 6F stakes in her career and that was to a male.  She won all ten other 6F stakes that she competed in.  However, when stretching out to 7F, Ta Wee suddenly wasn’t so invincible and lost two of her five stakes at the distance.

I also must say that I hold Black Caviar and her record in the highest regard, but I am also a realist and believe that if she had to race longer distances she wouldn’t be undefeated.   There have been many great sprinters over the years who, when asked to stretch it out to longer distances, have failed miserably.  And there is something to say about the majority of the world’s greatest races being lengthily routes, not sprints and not at the mile distance either.  But I will say I watched Black Caviar’s last two races on an extended feed and can see by the crowds and the high esteem in which they hold her that she will be as famous in Australia as Phar Lap, no doubt about it.  She is a true treasure and should be revered by us all.

LAZMANNICK 21 Feb 2012 12:39 AM

Sharjyl : I can say the same thing about Black Caviar's connections not having the courage to test her at longer distances.  How about you come back when BC has run longer than 7F, I don't even care if she wins, just let us see her go farther and see how she does.  Otherwise, you're just talking "stupidly."

Hi Paula :)

Anyway, back to triple crown mania...

JayJay 21 Feb 2012 12:47 AM

"show up and get beat badly..."

I wonder if Draynay watches horseracing at all or if he just stays home on his computer hitting the refresh button on the hundreds of websites he blogs at (really a full time job) to see if anyone responded to him.  Because if he did, he'd know that two cali horses showed up in the Southwest races and... well, I'll let him youtube it since he obviously is stuck on his computer lol.

I thought this was a blog about Black Baffert's horses, or is it Bob's Caviar ?  I forgot now...

JayJay 21 Feb 2012 1:30 AM

Draynay, who has Black Caviar beaten that's so good? Like someone else said mostly old timers past their prime. If you want to talk about a star foreign turf horse, Frankel's the best. Let's see how Black Caviar would do against a grade 1 winning horse in its prime like him.

JJW 21 Feb 2012 1:39 AM

 It seems alittle unusual to be talking about Baffert trained horses in February that are just breaking their Maidens or winning an Allowance as if they could possibly be Triple Crown threats. I would have to wonder why it has taken so long to get going on these horses, or is this a new strategy for Baffert, to move more slowly with his best stock. I think we won't know till after the Santa Anita Derby, who is the best on the West Coast.

Does anyone else think they need to let American Act run, and not strangle him early? How many horses finish like he did after being held so strongly early on in the race; he appears to be an exceptionally talented sprinter, I would even love to see what he might do in a turf sprint.

predict 21 Feb 2012 1:43 AM

Sylvester,

You don't know what your talking about.

Zenyatta faced  front-running and multiple Grade I winner "Ginger Punch" in the $500,000 Apple Blossom and once Zenyatta was through with her, she made Ginger Punch look like a $16,000 plater.

We enjoy listening to wisdom on these blogs, but if your going to act like a clown, your going to be treated as one.

Are you picking up what i'm putting down?

Secretariat 21 Feb 2012 1:45 AM

Game On Who, Draynay? I believe that's the one who ran that super horse Uncle Mo off its feet. What a horse! Can't wait to see him run again.

JJW 21 Feb 2012 1:53 AM

Sharjyl

You talk a big talk and come across as an international authority on racing.  Here, in answer to your post above, are some of the big names that have participated in the BCC since 1991.  I could go back further, but this will show you.  Like I said, you obviously don’t respect the BC Program and from what I can see you obviously don’t even understand what it’s all about.

Since 1991 the following European Cartier HOY winners participated in the Breeders Cup Program:

• 1991 – Arazi – won BC Juvenile

• 1994 – Barthea – won BC Turf Mile

• 1995 – Ridgeway Pearl – won BC Turf Mile

• 1999 – Daylami – won BC Turf

• 2000 – Giant’s causeway – 2nd BCC

• 2001 – Fantastic Light – won BC Turf

• 2002 – Rock of Gibralter – 2nd BC Turf Mile

• 2004 – Ouija Board – won 2004 and 2006 BC Filly Turf

• 2006 - Dylan Thomas – came for BC but raced in the JCGC first and finished last.  BC plans stopped.

• 2010 – Goldkiova – won BC Turf Mile.

These are individual Cartier European Champions in various divisions ranging from two year old champs to stayers, etc., that came over to race in the BC in the year that they were awarded their championship:

Mr. Brooks, Shiek Albadou, Stravinsky, Halling, Pilsudski, Swain, Kalanisi, Banks Hill, Galileo, Azamour (who in 2005 was rated the third best horse in the world and finished unplaced in the BC Turf), Duke of Marmalade, St. Nicholas Abbey, Johannesburg, Hold that Tiger and master Craftsman.

I could name more but I don’t think it would prove anything.  You are obviously an authority on Black Caviar and probably Goldi and Frankel, etc.  That should qualify you as an expert.

LAZMANNICK 21 Feb 2012 2:31 AM

Paula Higgins:

Lets put it your own way...I never overlooked Zen's accomplishments. And I never said she is not a great mare. Ms. Reading Comprehension 102, I said SHE WAS TOO GOOD FOR THE COMPETITION SHE WAS PUT AGAINST in most of her career. And yes, when you talk critically you do look at the negatives. It bothers me how over hyped her career is. I have no doubt about her talent. To me she was far more talented than most of BC Classic winners in the last decade.

sharjyl 21 Feb 2012 3:09 AM

Laz:

If you are going to tell me that all the BC Championship races are of significant importance to American racing, then yeah, I better watch hockey.

sharjyl 21 Feb 2012 3:14 AM

Draynay:

There are days when you can strut your anti-Cali bias, but Monday was not one of them.  Especially going the anti-Baffert route.  His two horses did just sweep both divisions of the Southwest, away from home.  

And let's remember what Baffert has accomplished.  How many Kentucky Derbys? 3. Preakness? 5.  8 Triple Crown race wins, and he still has many more years ahead of him.

The years between 2003 and 2009 were indeed lean ones for Baffert and Cali horses in general in the Triple Crown.  Lookin at Lucky put them both back on the scroeboard.  And now that the best Triple Crown trainer currently going, Mr. Baffert, has his preferred dirt surface back at Santa Anita, I expect more Triple Crown wins in the next few years.  

As for the rest of the SoCal trainers' colony, they are still trying to replace the likes of Lukas, Frankel, and Whittingham.  

A California based or prepped horse won a Triple Crown race: every year from 84'-89', 92', 94'-95', 97'-02', 05', 07', and 10'.  Cali horses, led by Lukas and Baffert, were awesome in the Triple Crown in the late 80s and for most of the 90s and into early 2000s.

GunBow 21 Feb 2012 4:46 AM

Draynay any predictions as to the Fountain of Youth this week and how Union Rags will do?

NASCAR PRO 21 Feb 2012 7:54 AM

Sorry I left out a question for YOU Draynay,how much will you be wagering on UR in the FOY is it a race to go for a score or will UR crush the field?

NASCAR PRO 21 Feb 2012 7:57 AM

Stevebiscuit - really?  You'd take Zenyatta at 10 furlongs on dirt against Ruffian?  Or Personal Ensign?  Or Lady's Secret?  On turf, you'd take Zenyatta at 10 furlongs over Quija Board?  Or Zarkova?  Or any number of overseas mares that run on turf?  You're entitled to your opinion but I believe you are wrong.

2:24 21 Feb 2012 9:42 AM

As much as it pains me I have to agree with draynay. Black Caviar is one impressive Mare. That being said she was even more impressive at 3 and is unqusetionably the best 3 yr old Filly the world has ever seen.

draynot 21 Feb 2012 9:46 AM

Union On The Rags will not win the KY Derby!!

House Majority Leader John Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell are currently focusing their attention on a bill that would ban any horse with a reference to Unions from running in the KY Derby. They claim the publicity of the name constitutes unfair positive attention to a way of life that believe be should be eliminated.    

Union Buster 21 Feb 2012 10:09 AM

Sylvester and Draynay,

You guys are so right about the vast superiority of Southern Hemisphere mares over American fillies. I recall a horse from Brazil named Zardana...

Age of Reason 21 Feb 2012 10:15 AM

Why does anyone care what the blogger named "Draynay" writes? He's wrong at least 67% of the time, posts bombastic remarks to get a response (Uncle Mo this and California that) and knows nothing about the history of horse racing except for what he has read on the subject because his "experience" goes back to post-1990.

He showed his "true" colors on this blog when he disparaged Mine That Bird's Derby win on a weekly basis until 52 of them had passed and then tried to get readers to believe he actually bet the horse because he "always bets Calvin Borel on Derby Day." Once a liar...

In addition, anyone with half a brain and any love for the "Blooded" horse is forced to respect the achievements of  Zenyatta and Frankel, two of the best horses of the last 50 years. Everyone that is except for the self-proclaimed racing expert. Ignore the child.

steve from st louis 21 Feb 2012 12:32 PM

GunBow I see you have included the Preakness and Belmont.  Let's stick with the Derby.  What have California horses done lately and how have I done tossing out the Santa Anita Derby winner each year for the last 20 years ???  NASCAR I believe Union Rags will win the Fountain of Youth and will do it with style.  There are only 71 days until the Derby and I don't see anyone getting good enough fast enough to beat him. Let's just hope he stays healthy.

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 1:08 PM

Sharjyl

There's nothing wrong with hockey.  It's my favorite sport without a doubt.  Too much is made about fighting (which is gradually disappearing) and not enough about the spead and grace of the sport itself.  Have a good day.

LAZMANNICK 21 Feb 2012 1:28 PM

I stand by my comment.  Baffert has a horse that runs a 137 mile big deal.  He doesn't have a real Derby contender.  I still like Creative Cause but he is not a Derby winner.  Baffert will come into play come Belmont time.

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 1:32 PM

In re "California horses:" Yeah, Paula Higgins. ...but not counting War Emblem, Silver Charm, Charismatic, Real Quiet, Sunday Silence, Alysheba, Ferdinand, Gato Del Sol, Bold Forbes, and still-reigning Triple Crown champ, AFFIRMED--may he rest in peace--Who ever heard of THEM?

Ra1nmaker 21 Feb 2012 2:01 PM

Steve from St. Louis get your story straight.  Mine that Bird was a one shot pony and I called it as soon as he won the Derby.  And I was 100% right.  What makes me a Derby expert is the fact that I have been going and winning since 1969.  Did I pick the winner in 2005 or 2009 ? Nope, no one did but my horse almost always hits the board like Nehro did last year.  Frankel is a champion and Goldikova is a champion and Black Caviar is a champion.  No one cares about a poly champion that didn't even race in the toughest races at the track.  Champions race on dirt or turf.  There is no such thing as a poly championship.

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 2:24 PM

Draynot - unquestionably the best three year old filly the world has ever seen?  Unquestionably?  I'll take Ruffian, Rachel Alexandra, Zarkava and a few others at 3 over Black Caviar despite her obvious greatness.

2:24 21 Feb 2012 2:33 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm

I just read where Black Caviar won't be running in Dubai.  I guess the Dubai World Carnival isn't all that important anymore either.

LAZMANNICK 21 Feb 2012 2:52 PM

Draynay,

You DID NOT throw out Pioneer of the Nile. He was the horse you wagered on Derby day and is the reason you dissed Mine That Bird fo an entire year.

longwaytomay 21 Feb 2012 2:53 PM

Age of Reason:  Wasn't Zardana the second stringer and Zenyattas understudy who whipped RA?

2:24: Ruffian maybe but RA not in a million years. Overated, beat nobody.

draynot 21 Feb 2012 3:04 PM

Dray: Once a liar.... You're like Commander McBragg, the cartoon b.s. artist on the Tennessee Tuxedo cartoons. You told the world you played Division III college football as an all-state quarterback in 1990. Were you betting in utero in 1969? See, when you start telling lies, it's hard to keep everything straight.

steve from st louis 21 Feb 2012 3:15 PM

"Champions race on dirt or turf"... Really, Draynay? Ever heard of Gio Ponti? Midshipman? Hansen? (Union Rags can answer that one!) How about Acclamation? Informed Decision? I could go on and refute other things you've said, but most of it is so mercifully incoherent that it is difficult to tell what you were actually saying in the first place. I'll leave you to finish that box of animal crackers--don't forget your sippy cup.

Age of Reason 21 Feb 2012 3:17 PM

Black Caviar is a sprinter on turf, I thought the KY Derby was run on dirt at 1 1/4 miles. I get the excitement over her, but enough already. When she can win four races in 1 week like the immortal Phar Lap, then maybe she will get her own blog and website. Until then, who cares about a sprinter on turf during triple crown season.

The same weak argument about getting good fast enough was used last year for Uncle Mo. And just like Uncle Mo, Union Rags needs to improve, not the rest of the 3 year old crop.

Why are any of you even writing back to a donkey named Draynay? This is a guy or being that bashes Secretariat and Zenyatta whenever he can. He would not recognize a racing great if one kicked him.

Forbidden Apple 21 Feb 2012 3:29 PM

Dray, you better get YOUR stories straight. You bragged to this blog on June 4, 2010 (4:43p.m.)  that you were the starting quarterback as a freshman in 1982 at Lenoir Rhyne College, a division II school. Let's say for sake of argument you were 18 years old as a freshman (repeating fifth grade had to be tough for you). That makes you conservatively born in 1963. So you were posting Derby winners in 1969 as a six-year-old idiot savant? You're so full of lies and B.S. your eyes have to be dark brown Once a liar.....

steve from st louis 21 Feb 2012 3:48 PM

Draynot:

Bingo! Zardana was Zenyatta's boot-polisher, an allowance horse from Brazil who exposed R.A. on her home track for the world to see.

Forbidden Apple:

re: "Why are any of you even writing back to a donkey named Draynay?" Your description is far too mild, and you should apologize to the Donkeys for insulting their species by comparison. But yes, you raised a good point. I would follow it more, but sometimes one must speak up and "Answer a fool according to his folly" (--Proverbs 26:5).

Age of Reason 21 Feb 2012 4:05 PM

Draynay, let me know when Black Caviar beats a horse that's made over $6 million. Or even half that! Zenyatta did that with ease!

Stevebiscuit 21 Feb 2012 4:41 PM

She lost. Get over it.

Jason Shandler 21 Feb 2012 4:50 PM

Steve I was the starting QB for Lenoir Rhyne and yes my first Derby was 1969 as a 6 year old.  I even had my picture taken with Citation.  I would go often with my Grandfather to Scioto Downs and didn't miss a Little Brown Jug for more than 20 years.  Do you think I am the first person to grow up with a gambling Grandfather?  I also saw nearly every Ohio Derby from 1969 to 1979.  Maybe you didn't know but Columbus Ohio has around 7 or 8 tracks within a 150 miles.

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 5:48 PM

Please don't compare Black Caviar beating the best on a surface they all have been bred to run on for hundreds of years to a poly horse that beat a few who dare run on it.  That plastic restricted champ took on dirt horses and got whipped and whipped good.

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 5:51 PM

Draynay you are betting UR wins the FOY.what is the bet,a straight win bet across the board key in an exacta?How much of your bankroll will you wager,is it a bigger bet than usual or the same amount as usual?

NASCAR PRO 21 Feb 2012 6:40 PM

Draynay if you played for Lenoir Rhyne College in that era,you might know a close childhood friend of mine that played there.He made it to the NFL and played Defensive line for the St Louis Cardinals football team.He played offense in HS so he might of played offense while in college.I think he transferred to Maryland before he graduated,but he made it to the NFL and played for Lenoir Rhyne so you should know him if you played there.

NASCAR PRO 21 Feb 2012 6:55 PM

Ra1nmaker.  You forgot a little filly who took the Santa Anita Oaks, wheeled back an took the Santa Anita Derby by 10, and then the Kentucky Derby.  Wake me up when something like this is done again.  

Throw the also rans in the Santa Anita Derby away and continue to play Indian Charlie off spring.  

I would also add GIACOMO Ra1nmaker just to drive home my point.

Householder 21 Feb 2012 8:10 PM

NASCAR the defensive terror of my time was Butch Gunter.  He was a Junior when I was a Freshman and chased me all over the practice field.  There was NO ONE on the offensive line that would go pro and no one on the defensive line as good as Butch Gunter.  My left tackle Pendleton was big but not very fast and the rest of our offensive lineman were under 250 pounds.  I do remember Jimmy Thicke our TE because he was a freshman like me and he punted too.  I will have you know I won Freshman of the year that year.  Anything else you want to know ?

Draynay 21 Feb 2012 8:14 PM

Yes Jason, the greatest racemare of all time lost one race. No shame in losing to Blame at his home track. But getting dusted by a grade 2 horse like Regal Ransom, now that's embarrassing.

Stevebiscuit 21 Feb 2012 8:49 PM

Biquick, you're mistaken.  The greatest racemare of all time Personal Ensign never lost and she never raced Blame.  Personal Ensign faced open company on dirt and won.  Like HDG, Lady's Secret and the phenomenal Rachel Alexandra. Zenyatta couldn't do it.  Pity for her.

Sylvester 21 Feb 2012 10:38 PM

Sorry, but the greatest racemare of all time has never lost.  Black Caviar 19 and 0.

Draynay 22 Feb 2012 12:11 AM

Stevebiscuit:

I got a horse who won more straight than your poly champion. You know who am I talking about, the Redux. Not to compare their talent and level of comeptition, all I and Jason, and Draynay are trying to say is that if you are the best, you beat the best in the best of the competition at the fair surface.

sharjyl 22 Feb 2012 1:59 AM

Stevebiscuit & Age of NO Reason:

Lemme give you a taste of your own medicine. Zenyatta beat who in 2009 classic by 1 length ? Gio Ponti ? Well, he got beat 1 3/4 length the same year by guess who ? Interpatation in Joe Hirsch. Same year he was 5th in Strub Stakes behind who ? Cowboy Cal and Blue Exit. lol.... Now, I take nothing away from Gio Ponti, he was no doubt an excellent horse, one of my favorites, but all I want to say is, that

1- Zenyatta didn't beat a great deal in her career. The best of her wins was over the mile expert gio ponti, Twice Over, Summer Bird, Colonel John etc. I mean come on..Quality Road would run horses like these into ground, then shouldn't he also be called great...What you think ?

2- RA did get beat badly, but that was her return. And she was never the same filly after her 3yr old campaign. Losing to less popular horses is not something unheard of. Take out Zen's Classic victory, and tell me how many graded or stakes winners did Zen beat in that year compared to what RA had beat in the same year ?

sharjyl 22 Feb 2012 2:14 AM

Zenyatta is the greatest mare of all time and she's up there with the legends like Citation and Cigar.  It's history, everyone that matters and that includes all but a very few journalists and bloggers knows this as a fact.  She lost the Classic to who ?  No one ever mentions the winner's name, and yet, the haters still blogs about HER.  Get over it! :)

Draynay does this every year, he hops on the "best" 2 yr old then hypes it up like he knows anything about horses.  He'll keep at it until the horse loses his first race as a 3 yr old then checks Mike Watchmaker's "list" and find himself a replacement, and so on and so on... then come derby day, he's so lost he dumps his money on Calvin Borel... then he loses all his money and then comes back here and hypes whoever won the derby and proclaims THAT horse as the triple crown winner... and the horse loses the next two jewels and ... and ... he takes out his frustration by berating Zenyatta. It's the same story EVERY YEAR.  LOL.

So... who's going to beat El Padrino ?  TP is loaded this weekend but I think there's going to be some longshots beating him in one of the two major preps.  El Padrino is one of my first horses in my RTTR stable but I just have this gut feeling that he may not like Oaklawn.  If he makes it to the Derby, he will probably be my first choice.  He's got the advantage in that he's already run on a sealed track and won easily, CD might be wet this come derby time this year.

Any news on Spring Hill Farm ??  I've been waiting and waiting to see where this horse is going to run next.  He's running out of time.

JayJay 22 Feb 2012 3:39 AM

Stevebiscuit, Black Caviar has earned $4.9 million, won 8 Grade 1 IN A row, AND SHE IS RACING MALES.....

Billy's Empire 22 Feb 2012 9:29 AM

Jason

Tell me you can't be serious!!Zenyatta lost?! Thank you for that revelation, oh Enlightened One!

Age of Reason 22 Feb 2012 9:37 AM

Draynay does the name Mark Duda ring a bell.He went to Lenoir Ryhne in that same era,but as I stated he transferred to Maryland before graduation.He made it to the NFL and played for the St Louis Cardinals as a DL,I saw him on Monday Night Football he played well as a quick DL.If you played at Lenoir Ryhne you should know him.That is a smaller school not a Notre Dame,USC,Michagan where a lot of the players play in the NFL.

NASCAR PRO 22 Feb 2012 10:02 AM

Draynay what I wanted to know is what is your bet amount in the FOY?Are you playing $1200 again like you posted that you were betting in the Classic only to win?

NASCAR PRO 22 Feb 2012 10:04 AM

My bad I meant $2000 isnt that what you posted you were betting on UM in the Classic?

NASCAR PRO 22 Feb 2012 10:05 AM

NASCAR you are not the sharpest pencil in the box are you?  There is this thing called Google just type in Denny NAY aka drayNAY and Lenoir Rhyne.  Denny Nay Lenoir Rhyne.... and see what comes up geez.  It's not rocket science.  By the way Mark was long gone when I got there and didn't get drafted until 1983 and I was gone from injury by then.  I will put a couple a hundred on Union to win since you want to know so bad but first I will have to get my Mercedes detailed after I get off my private jet from my vacation home in Florida.  By the way Jason, I may have to take a rain check on March due to opening a new club but I will keep you posted.

Draynay 22 Feb 2012 11:03 AM

www.e-yearbook.com/.../Page_68.html

There is the link you couldn't seem to find.  In the left corner you will see me Denny NAY #7 throwing the ball and NASCAR I don't have to lie my life has really been that good.  By the way notice the freshman of the year award below the pictures!

Draynay 22 Feb 2012 11:16 AM

Sharjyl,

I could try to respond to your comments in length, but your grammar is so wretched that I shouldn't dignify it with a response at all. Suffice it to say this: If you think you're such a infallible judge of all things Zenyatta that you can argue with the opinions of Penny Chenery, Allen Jerkens, Bob Baffert, Andy Beyer,and other racing legends who proclaimed her an all-time great, then knock yourself out! I won't be so foolish.

Age of Reason 22 Feb 2012 11:19 AM

Jayjay wrote:

"El Padrino is one of my first horses in my RTTR stable but I just have this gut feeling that he may not like Oaklawn"

He is racing at Fair Grounds in the Risen Star, just wanted to clear that up

Before we go to the new blog, I just want to say that you can't change the past. What happened, HAPPENED! Was Zenyatta good? Yes, she was a good race mare. Did she beat anything good in her races? Not really, but that is all subjective depending on what side of the argument you are on. We can all talk about this for years and years to come, but it changes nothing. The argument is old, tired, and boring. We have a ton of great 3yo's right now making a splash on the scene, a decent handicap division, and much better things to talk about. If you want to keep talking about this, go to another site. I just puked in my mouth....

Billy's Empire 22 Feb 2012 11:51 AM

Sharjyl

Just to let you know your MONSTER hasn’t won a race past a mile yet.  In his last, in case you forgot, he stared a so-called inferior horse in the eye at the 16th pole and couldn’t get past him.  It might be best to at least let Union Rags run and possibly win the FOY before doing your best Draynay imitation and crowning him one of the best ever.

It also makes me laugh how you and others can say that certain mare, in spite of one of the best closes ever in the history of the BCC, got beat and wasn’t all that good and yet Union Rags hasn’t even won past a mile, stared Hansen in the eye at the 16th pole and couldn’t get past, and proclaim him a MONSTER.

BTW, I must have missed your informative rebuttal to the list of European champions that I posted that have contested past Breeders Cups.

LAZMANNICK 22 Feb 2012 3:51 PM

Bravo, Lazmannick. Bravo.

Age of Reason 22 Feb 2012 4:22 PM

sharjyl, Gio Ponti won the grade 3 Sir Beufort on pro ride, loved 10 furlongs, and was in the peak of his career when he faced Zenyatta with 4 grade 1s in 09. His loss to Interpatation was due to the condition of the track(just look at the fractions!) and not Gio Ponti's inability to win. Had got a perfect ground saving trip in the Classic but it simply wasn't enough.

sylvester, when will you get a clue? are you really going to compare Personal Ensign's competition in the Whitney to the males Zenyatta beat in both Classics? Let's see, Zenyatta has defeated 21 males in her career. Personal Ensign defeated 2! And they were both sprinters! Of the fillies you mention there is no doubt Zenyatta beat far better males on dirt and synthetics.

billy's empire, Zenyatta won over $7 million dollars, 9 grade 1s in a row including the Breeders Cup Classic. Money-wise, stakes-wise, and competition-wise, Zenyatta wins!

Draynay, I want to hear from you, at a mile and a quarter on dirt would Black Caviar beat Zenyatta? Before answering I'd like you to do something you've never done before...think before you type! Let's see if you can reach back into your infinite reservoir of thoughtless comments, underlay worship, and weak excuses and see if you can find even a shred of objectivity.

Stevebiscuit 22 Feb 2012 4:28 PM

Bravo yourself Age of Reason.

LAZMANNICK 22 Feb 2012 5:03 PM

DRANAY also has his OWN place.......its called FANTASY ISLAND!

KY VET 22 Feb 2012 5:45 PM

Draynay thanx for the compliment.So your not trying to get back the $2000 you lost on one of this blogs favorite animals good ole Uncle Mo.As far as using google to find you,guess what after blogging on here I did that with Mark Duda and he was on there.There is nothing about his Lenoir Ryhne days but he is a head coach of another small college in Penn.I found his contact info and e-mailed him,lets see if he replies.I wont google you,I dont know who you are or care if you played QB at Lenoir Ryhne.What I do know is that you picked Mo for two grand and now are picking UR for a measely $200.Geez take a mortgage out on your private plane so you can bet $3000 on UR and be known as a winner on this blog.GL

NASCAR PRO 22 Feb 2012 6:06 PM

NASCAR PRO

It's possible that Draynay got his colleges mixed up.  He says he went to Lenoir Ryhne but maybe he really meant LeAnn Rhimes.  

LAZMANNICK 22 Feb 2012 7:10 PM

Stevebiscuit I would say we will never see Black Caviar win on dirt at 1 1/4 and I know for sure we will never see The State Restricted Poly Champion win at 1 1/4 on dirt.  One will never try and the other has tried and got whipped a lot while getting beat.  NASCAR I am saving the big bet for the Florida Derby.  UNION RAGS WILL ROMP.

Draynay 22 Feb 2012 11:19 PM

Lazzmannick, let me know your thoughts on Union Rags after the Florida Derby.

Draynay 22 Feb 2012 11:23 PM

Black Caviar TOP Timeform Rating 135

Zenyatta TOP Timeform Rating 132

Black Caviar Wins!!!

A few notes,

"IT'S official - unbeaten superstar Black Caviar is the best thoroughbred racing anywhere in the world"

"For Australia to have Black Caviar Timeform-rated above gallopers of this quality is a major achievement and something that has never happened previously," Racing and Sports founder Gary Crispe, the respected official Timeform handicapper for Australasian racing, said."The performances of Black Caviar have captured the attention of racegoers around the world."

"A 135 Timeform rating for Black Caviar not only places her fourth-highest in the modern era of Australian gallopers, but also puts her in elite company as far as all-time world-class sprinters are concerned."

"A review of Timeform ratings since the 1950s reveals Black Caviar is the ninth highest-rated sprinter of all time."

"Black Caviar's 135 Timeform rating also fell a pound short of the sprinter/miler Manikato, who sits on 136 as the highest-rated Australian sprinter in the modern era."

Billy's Empire 23 Feb 2012 9:01 AM

Draynay betting only $200 leads me to believe that YOUR belief in UR in the FOY is not as strong as it was when you bet $2000 on UM in the classic.Bloggers caveat emptor.

NASCAR PRO 23 Feb 2012 10:04 AM

NASCAR if you know anything about racing you would know that a win by UNION RAGS is not needed in the FOY.  This is his first race back and just needs to run well.  The Florida Derby and Kentucky Derby are races they will be looking to WIN.

Draynay 23 Feb 2012 12:23 PM

Billy

Do you know how a Time Form rating is calculated and what information is taken into consideration?  Do you not look at the top Time Form rated horses and come to the conclusion that they are all turf horses, that dirt horses are well down the list with Cigar being the highest rated at 138 and Easy Goer, Sunday Silence and Ghostzapper rated at 137.

LAZMANNICK 23 Feb 2012 1:43 PM

Billy……..I also wonder what Black Caviar's Time Form Rating would be if she had to race beyond 7F.

Draynay……..Do us all a favor and wait until after Sunday before you continue with your hype.  Like I posted above, Union Rags hasn't even won past a mile yet but then, let's see, Black Caviar runs well at 6F so maybe the fact that Union rags won at a mile but failed miserably trying to go an additional 16th doesn’t really matter and qualifies him as being the best.  Let him win at 9F first.

LAZMANNICK 23 Feb 2012 1:49 PM

What does that statement mean are you still betting $200 on UR in the FOY or not Draynay?

NASCAR PRO 23 Feb 2012 1:50 PM

Laz, I know how they work, or else I wouldn't of posted it. That is quite disrespectful actually. Did you read the rest of my post, with quote's about how difficult it is to have a timeform rating that high for a sprinter as opposed to gallopers/routers. It is an amazing feat, yet all you do is crow about her not going long.   You disparage one great horse to make you feel better about Zenyatta's lack of accomplishment. In the last 5 years, we have had bigger accomplishments than Zenyatta's on the race track, Rachel, Zakarva, Black Caviar, Goldikova, just to name a few. I could throw in rapid redux, but I know better. They raced males on multiple occasion and beat them like a drum. Everyone always says it's about the competition, the company you keep, right? moving on

Billy's Empire 23 Feb 2012 2:51 PM

Zenyatta humbled Rip Van Winkle in their only meeting and yet RIW has a Time Form rating of 134 and Zenyatta 132.  This makes a lot of sense.

LAZMANNICK 23 Feb 2012 3:13 PM

Billy, you’re the one who always brings it up so maybe you should take your advice and move on.  BTW the fifth highest rated horse all time on the Time Form rating at 142 is a pure sprinter.  He never won a race beyond 6 furlongs and won the majority of his races at 5F.  He tried 8F once and lost.

LAZMANNICK 23 Feb 2012 4:58 PM

I knew it would happen sooner or later! First Draynay gloats about how Union Rags will destroy the FOY field, now is he saying he just needs to run well and a win isn't even important. It's rare for him to start his spin even before a race is run...I guess that's why they call it blind loyalty...

Age of Reason 23 Feb 2012 5:16 PM

Hello everyone Im new to posting on the blog eventhough I have read it periodically.I decided to post my opinions like everyone else.

ZORRO 23 Feb 2012 5:55 PM

100 dollar exacta box on Union/Desert

Florida Derby 1000 on Union Rags to win.

Draynay 23 Feb 2012 6:51 PM

I guess everyone forgets that the BC was on a synthetic track, which they have now replaced with dirt. Failed experiment, with flawed results.

Billy's Empire 24 Feb 2012 9:23 AM

Union Rags destroyed the field and ran well.  Just like I knew he would.  Union Rags is the Derby winner.

Draynay 26 Feb 2012 6:49 PM

Union Rags.... I am always right.

Draynay 26 Feb 2012 6:56 PM

Everytime I start to think I can read a blog of Jason's, someone has to take a pot shot at Zenyatta.  I didn't realize that she transformed herself into a 3 yr old on the TC Trail.  And was being trained by Baffert.  Are you people obsessed or what?  It is absurd.  Leave the animal alone.  She isn't racing anymore.  There is no need to comment about her.

Billy- actually Zarkava only raced males once, albeit in the most important race in Europe.  But she did embarrass Goldikova twice.  ;)  IMO, one of the greats-period.  But people do debate that because she only ran 7 times.  But I know what I saw and to me she was the equal of Allez France and Dahlia.  But we will never know for sure.   Have a good one.  I hope one day Jason will have a Zenyatta-free blog.

Footlick 27 Feb 2012 11:58 AM

I meant Zarkava is one of the greats-period.  Looking at my post, it was confusing which horse I was referring to.  Goldikova was wonderful, but Zarkava was just scary good.  She was the equal of Allez France or Dahlia, imo.  Goldikova, as good as she was, was still a cut below.

Footlick 27 Feb 2012 3:01 PM

Afraid not, Draynay -- regarding your remarks at to Black Caviar, who --fast as she is, I don't believe would get past The Factor, right now (who, finally, is rating kindly, at age Four).

But no, Draynay. ...Of the greatest thoroughbred racemares Never to Have Known Defeat (and otherise), one stands alone. And that is "My Precious": KINCSEM (Hungarian), whose lifetime record remains 54-0-0 !

You wrote:

< Sorry, but the greatest racemare of all time has never lost.  Black Caviar 19 and 0. >

Ra1nmaker 28 Feb 2012 1:07 PM

Black Caviar may be the greatest sprint mare ever but I doubt if she could beat Zenyatta at a mile and a quarter.  

Let's hope she takes on Frankel this summer.  Then we will have a better guage of her ability.

Tiara Terces 16 Apr 2012 8:20 AM


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