Why don't they have some sort of a "Triple Crown" for older horses? The major problem with running past the three year old season is that there really isn't anything other than the BC to look forward to. There are no races for older horses that gain the attention that the Triple Crown does. An older horse Triple Crown ran at the same time(maybe even on the same day) would really give people something to cheer about.

They could also make the earnings greater for older horses. The bottom line is money, so make it worth their while to run their horses longer.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just finished watching Kip Deville and Hystericalady win their respective races and I loved it. I too hope Curlin stays here, but I do like what his owners were trying to do.Let Curlin finish his career here, where his fans are.

There is an older horse Triple Crown.  I know a couple of time I have heard it be named as the Older Horse Triple Crown.  That's run at the New York racing circuit with the Suburban, Brooklyn, and the Whitney Handicaps (I think) are the ones to be in that triple.  Just like in the Fillies Triple Tiara (all run in New York) there is the Older Horse Triple Crown.  But even that doesn't get the attention ast the Triple Crown as we all know it.  It would be hard to push the Triple Crown we all know well and love to the four-year-old ranks to get the attention that it does now.  It wouldn't be as prestigious or in the same leagues as the other Triple Crowns around the world (Canada, UK, etc.).  So that would be quite difficult.  Plus, it would also take away the accomplishments of the Eleven (the eleven Triple Crown winners) that did win it at age three.  Would their pursuit of winning the Triple Crown as a three-year-old be in vain as they were able to go through the rigors of the Triple Crown?  It might and then again it might not, but those that follow in pursuit if the Triple Crown does get forced to the four-year-old ranks will be forever scrutinized and have an asterisk next to their name.

In all retrospect, I think America got really spoiled because of the 70s, so now we seem to expect that the Triple Crown should be the one to save the sport, but it shouldn't be the only one.  It should be those horses who continue to race for several years, in which case I applaud Curlin and his connections to keep racing.  We don't “need” to have a Triple Crown winner; we need horses like a Cigar or a John Henry who can capture the imagination for several years while still in training.  Or we need to Derby winners to duel it own to fuel excitement in the Classic, as in Ferdinand and Alysheba.

As for one thing, the 70s definitely set the standards of our perception of what a Triple Crown winner should be.  Everyone always compares to the winner of the two-legs to be that of Secretariat (which I'm finding to be a curse/ jinx so people should just stop comparing and maybe we'll see results; after all, I don't believe today's horses can duplicate that kind of prowess through his sweep of the Triple Crown), to Affirmed fighting it out with such tenacity and heart, and Seattle Slew, the only undefeated Triple Crown winner.  We have truly gotten spoiled because of the high standards they set in our minds.

And for one last thing, does anyone see this or am I just imagining things:  Eleven Triple Crown winners and eleven horses that attempted to take the Triple Crown.  So does that mean that the Twelfth Triple Crown winner would come to be the Twelfth horse to attempt it?  Just a number that had to be thrown out there...

Chin up people, there will be a Triple Crown.  As long as we respect it with great reverence, and remain in awe to the "freaks" that did surpass everything to win it (and stop the comparisons to Secretariat and the like - I'm actually starting to get annoyed by it), then through our patience, we shall be blessed by a Triple Crown winner.

VERY well said; and I agree with you completely.

I have loved Curlin ever since the Rebel Stakes, and I even told people: "Hey, this horse is really something to watch.. and he will be special" and a lot of people actually, did not agree with me at all.

Well, just look at him now.

Curlin ran a phenamonal race considering the pace that was set up front. They say he had no " late kick" but he was gaining steadily and didnt flatten out. I agree with a Triple Crown of sorts for older horses, to give the owners some incentive to race past the three year old year. Watching Curlin grow up and turn into the incredible awesome specimen he has become has been very exciting. Kudos to his connections for thier management of him.

Jason-- as you well know, this is all about the economics of racing, or better said, the economics of the breeding shed. Jess Jackson a great owner, but let's face it, without the legal tangle surrounding Curlin, he would already be in the breeding shed, right along with all the other horses you reference.

To make your point another way, when was the last time you saw three previous BC winners in the same field as we did in the Man 'o War? Yes, that WAS Better Talk Now, 2005 BC Turf Winner, pressing Curlin before finishing 3rd. I believe that was Better Talk Now's 46th career start, with winnings over $4 M. Need more like him-- a throw back to another era and just think, he is obviously still having fun training and running, and HG Motion somehow managing to keep him fit and his coat with a nice shine without resorting to the 'roids. Props to everyone at Motion's Herringswell Stable at Fair Hill and all connections of Better Talk Now.

I agree with you completly when you say we love those classic horses. It's true. I'm a big racing fan but when Curlin's got a race coming up I get excited. I say he put in a game performance for his turf debut.

I could not have said it better Jason,thanks.

Although the Triple Crown is on dirt I've become more of a turf and sprint race fan because you see those horses stay around longer unlike the dirt horses who run at the classic distance.

Bryce, It is nice to see someone recognizing BTN. I love him. He was actually my pick for the Man O War and think his late drive was awesome and feel had the race been longer he would have caught Curlin although still think he would have come up short behind Red Rock but what an awesome horse and yes, still rocking and rolling at the great old age of 9.

I don't know if I agree that Curlin was all that game. He didn't seem to be the fighter on the turf that we are use to seeing. Not sure he likes the turf all that much. The pace was blistering up front but I don't think that mattered much to  Curlin and RR. They settled in nicely and didn't seem to upset by the boys in the front.  In response to their not being that many good races for older horses, I agree with that to some degree, but when a horse like Curlin runs, people start paying attention to these races that are otherwise somewhat unknown to the casual racing fan. Curlin is a rock star. To bad the legal troubles we always hear about in regards to Curlin are such a downer but the truth of the matter is if they didn't have all these troubles, he would be in the breeding shed already and we wouldn't be getting the thrill of watching him race anymore. I will be extrememly disapointed when Curlin retires. Nice race by Hysterical Lady. She is another "Rock Star" in my eyes.

Even to people who have never seen a horse race, Curlin looks like a star. He just walks in like he owns the place.

I am so grateful to Mr. Jackson for letting us see him at four. Luckily, I was able to see the Stephen Foster at Churchill.

Curlin is a very special animal. Go see him if you can.

I am just amazed that I keep hearing complaints about horses being retired too early, but there is a real champ still running in California that gets no respect. Lava Man is his name people.  The only horse in America to win grade ones on dirt, turf, and synthetic surface all carrying high weight, a three time Gold Cup winner, two time Santa Anita winner, and only horse to win grade ones on turf and dirt in the same year since 1988 and still he got absolutely no respect because he didn't win outside of California. In 2006, the year he only lost one race, he wasn't even third chose for Horse of the year.  Well, if someone can tell me which horses Curlin has beat that are better than those Lava Man has beat, I will say he is a better champ than Lava Man.  When Lava Man switched from dirt to turf, and ran in the Grade One Charlie Whittingham, he carried 124 pounds against grade one winning turf horses who were not past their prime, and all I heard was whining that Lava Man was only carrying 124 pounds, eight to ten pounds more than the other horses. When Lava Man ran in the 2007 Gold Cup on synthetic surface for the first time, the so called expert announcers for ESPN made Jeanine Edwards ask a trainer of a horse that had just won by five lenghts on synthetic surface in a grade two stakes, if he was upset that Lava Man was only carrying five more pounds that his horse. Yet when Curlin switched from dirt to turf, he was carriing only 116 pounds against good horses, but ones that have not won in over a year, seven to nine years old, and I did not hear one person ask if anyone was upset that the horse of the world, the reigning 2007 horse of the year was not even carrying  high weight. In fact he was carrying four pounds less than Better Talk Now,a great horse at one time, but now a nine year old who has not won since 2005. I am sorry but if he was that great, he should have won with that big of an allowance. Yes, I am a Lava Man fan, but he deserves my appreciation for the great horse he is. He is still running at age seven folks, and he has lost a step or two, but he is still forced to carry high weight in his races, and he has lost, but his last race in the Charlie Whttingham was a testiment of a true champ, with a heart as big as he is.  Maybe we should appreciate a horse who is not a Golden Boy, but a true legend in his own time. One that I do hope someday will get the respect he not only so deserves, but has truly earned.  Lava Man folks, that's his name.  Not a good horse, a great one.      

I think Curlin ran a race.  Just think what he might have been thinking.  For example:  "oh, grass, that's great, play time." or maybe, "grass, great let me jump and play, no business today.  They let me play on the grass when things are slow."  By the time he woke up to the fact that there was business to attend to, there wasn't time left.  The opposite is when you take him to dirt he thinks, "oh, oh work today but I really like this job!"  Give him more time on the turf and he'll win the Arc.  Running in Frace won't stop his fans, just build more.

I thought Curlin ran a great race for his first time on turf.  I also think his connections need to be given more credit for racing him as a 4yo, I have a feeling Mr. Jackson would have raced him regardless of the legal issues as he seems to really care about the racing industry.

I LOVE CURLIN HE'S WHAT A CHAMPION SHOULD BE. I REALLY WANT TO SEE BIG BROWN VS CURLIN IN THE B.C.C. IM A FAN OF THE SPORT AND THAT'S WHAT THE U.S OF A NEEDS IN THIS SPORT. A TRUE RACE OF THE BEST. IN THE END I BELIVE EVERYONE WILL BE SEEING CURLIN WIN. PASSING CIGAR ON THE MONEY LIST AND GOING OUT A CHAMPION. LOTS OF LOVE CURLIN KEEP DOING WHAT YOU DO!!!

The real question is whether or not Curlin is a potentially great horse beating up on very good horses, or a very good horse beating up on an abnormally pathetic handicap division this year.  At this point, I think it's the latter.  An all-time great? No chance.  The best horse we've seen this millennium?  Probably not.  A talented horse with a great owner and a forgettable trainer?  That one fits best.  

I was disappointed to see Curlin lose, but if he had to lose - I was so glad that it came under Red Rocks! Love that guy. He's a hard trier.

That's why I loved Funny Cide. He was a decent horse who did well and raced into his 7yo year.

lecy;  

chill. he's not that good.

he can't even beat the California crop anymore, much less an allowance race at Saratoga!

Nobody that can "talk" horse racing would even think Curlin's first race on grass a failure.The winner is a Grade One stakes winner who is coming around again and the third place horse is a old horse who is still gutsy at the Grade One level.Class,class,class.These are very good horses and it's a treat to see them run.I love the old man cause he shows up every time and doesn't miss to many checks.Thanks to his connections for keeping him sound and happy at age 9.

Very familiar with Lava Man and appreciate someone drawing a little attention to him.  He is the type of horse this sport needs.

I THOUGHT CURLIN RAN A GREAT RACE!!!  IT SEEMS LIKE ESPECIALLY IN THE MEDIA, THAT THERE IS ALOT OF JUMPING ON AND OFF THE BAND WAGON!! GO CURLIN!! AND STAY HEALTHY!!!

The bookies in Europe are very rarely wrong and this is how they see it for the Arc.

Soldier Of Fortune 5-1  

New Approach 6-1  

Duke of Marmalade 6-1  

Youmzain 8-1  

Getaway 12-1  

Tartan Bearer 16-1  

Curlin 14-1 to 8-1 to 16-1 (after Man O War)

Casual Conquest 20-1  

Coastal Path  20-1  

Prospect Wells  20-1  

Zambezi Sun  25-1  

Montmarte  25-1  

Doctor Freemantle  25-1  

High rock  25-1  

Curtain Call  33-1  

Ask  33-1  

Lucarno  33-1  

Curlin is All-World on the dirt but would he be able to hang with the horses in Europe? Red Rocks would never be confused with the best of those aiming for the Arc.

So what now?

I agree with you completely Jason.  I was at Belmont for the Man 'O' War and the response from the crowd was sparked with excitement when Curlin emerged in the paddock.  He was greeted with cheering and applause through the paddock, which redoubled with his emergence onto the track.  After the race he was given a greater ovation than the winner, and the affection and awe given by the fans was evident.

 It was a great first effort on the turf.  It just goes to show how high the bar of expectation is raised with this horse when people start saying how dissapointed they with this loss.  He ran against some of the best turf horses around, and still got up for second.  If this was any other horse, people would be saying how amazing the first time performance was against the competition, but with Curlin you expect perfection, and that's usually what you get.  But for him to put in the kind of effort he did off only one light turf work, is simply amazing.

 He slammed into the left side of the starting gate at the break, and I think he was way to far off that suicidal pace, and was asked to cover too much ground in the stretch.

 After watching numerous replays of the Man 'O' War, I am confident that he will be able to improve off this effort and go on to conquer the best of "both worlds", turf and dirt.

Go Curlin, your still the champ!!

I agree with you Lecy... Lava Man is a great horse. He just doesn't get the exposure. I don't care how good you are, if you aren't part of the "triple crown series", you just don't get the respect and the attention of casual racing fans. Lava man has proved himself in California and I have utmost respect for him. It's hard to compare him to Curlin as Curlin is only a 4 year old, but Curlin has won some high profile races. Not to mention he has had some talented opponents. Street Sense, Hard Spun, Rags to Riches, Lawyer Ron,Better Talk Now just to name a few. I would say he has taken on some stiff competition. He did just beat Better Talk Now who is a multiple Grade 1 winner. Better Talk Now did win the (GR 1)Manhattan Handicap in 2007 at the age of 8.

Thanks Brian A. for the down low on Curlins race.Had to much on my plate at work to see it but I caught the headline on this website.Why wouldn't he improve off that start? I think it was a great first effort on grass and remember he's bred for the green stuff.

That was a MIGHTY 3yo season Curlin put together last year--he danced all the dances and still won the Classic by many widening lengths over a stellar field--this year he's won the Dubai Cup and three other races vs lessor than he beat last year, but you can hardly blame the horse for that, Art! Why this horse keeps getting put down as just a nice horse boggles the mind--he just ran 2nd in a GrI in his first try on turf---hope you'll book me that 16-1 odds for the Arc Pat! But I wanna see Curlin v Big Brown in the Classic--THAT'S HUGE! But, yes, Curlin IS a rock star, and for a while so was Lava Man around So Cal--horses that dance all the dances, turf/dirt/poly--they're to be honored and cherished!! Right now there are MANY top horses, and I hope they ALL show up for the Breeders Cup! Horses like Curlin, Big Brown, Heatseeker, Casino Drive, Georgie Boy in the Classic....Ginger Punch, Zenyatta, Hystericalady in the Filly/Mare...that alone would be a great Cup but there are even more really nice horses around right now--despite the lack of quality 3yolds racing's second season looks rock solid!

I agree with "tekandtolo" that Curlin may have been confused about his purpose on grass. Mr. Jackson would have kept him in training regardless of the Midnight Cry debacle; he cares about the quality of the sport and can afford to pay the ever increasing insurance premiums on this champion!

I thought Curlin's MOW race was really good.  He finished well with two BC winners in a GI race on a surface he had never tried before after winning the worlds richest race this year a world away in Dubai.  Give him a break!  Do I think he's Arc material, nope.  Do I think he should stay on the turf - yup - and why not try for the BC Turf????

As for wanting to see older champions - I think it's a great idea - but unrealistic.  You can't say no breeding until 5yo.  What about those who are truly injured at 3?  Should those owners be punished?  What about those who would run their 4yo horse a million times to make up for lost breeding fees that year?  Should the horse be punished?  And what about the fans?  Should we be punished with always wondering if the 4yo we see running is there because he/she truly belongs or if he/she has nothing better to do.  It's not fair!

Though, I do agree the public loves to watch a star for as long as possible.  But, we also have to realize that these are animals.  You only get one shot with a Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Cigar, Forego, etc.  You don't get do-overs.  So why don't we just enjoy the time we do have with these amazing athletes and say thank you.

I think it was pathetic that only 9,000 fans showed up to see the race.There was no media coverage or promotion of the race by NYRA.I know they had free parking etc.but i did not hear one promotional spot on the airwaves...Regarding the race,the outcome was no suprise as Curlin clearly does not have the right racing style for turf racing.It was a testament to his class that he finished secound.If he runs in the Arc he will not hit the board.Lets get back to business and get ready for the BCC,on dirt,where he belongs.

Great article. I am a horse racing fan and not a gambler. I love the history. I saw Secreatariat, Slew and Sunday Silence but would loved to have seen Native Dancer, Swaps, Nashua, etc etc just like I would have loved to see Babe Ruth play baseball. I respect the decision to race Curlin past 3. Its a treat. I think we all understand turf vs dirt is hard to measure. I think Curlin will have more problems racing in the opposite direction that it would create in the Arc. I am more inclined to hope Curlin stays on the dirt but I respect Asmussen and Jackson for a right decision. Another point some of the turf horses are very under rated. I really enjoyed watching English Channel the past two years and he retired a champ racing his best race as his last.

Hats off to Hystericalady, Harlem Rocker, and Kip Deville for some great racing this past week.

Why would we need a new governing board to raise breeding ages of racehorses?  We already have the odd rule in place that racing TBs must be the product of a "natural cover," not artificial insemination.  If that rule can be put in place by the Jockey Club, why can't they put one in about a minimum age for parents?  Why would you need a new organization?

Of course, a ban on AI benefits breeders, while a minimum age on horses does not, so whether the JC would be willing to do that is a whole other issue.

Why is everyone writing Curlin off for the Arc? Do they have a crystal ball? That race is a long ways away.Sorry it's not that cut and dried in horse racing.The comment about running the wrong way is way off to. They come over here and run the wrong way.The connections said IF he goes over he'll go early to get used to everything including running right handed.I rubbed a mare in the 80's imported from Aus,she trained for about 5 months here before she ran. She bore out her first start but was fine after that.Trust me they figure it out pretty quick,and Curlin's no dummy.

To keep Horses racing why don't we open the triple crown races for 3 years olds and older instead of limiting it to 3 year olds . Whats wrong with giving a Horse another crack at the Classics.

Everyone knows Curlin is an outstanding horse - but how about a little respect for Red Rocks, the WINNER of the race?  Here we have a Breeder's Cup Winner who has trained his way back to beating the horse of the year.  Let's give some credit where credit is due.  This is what horse racing is all about - the horses that don't give up and make great comebacks.  I say job well done to the underdog!

The big dissapointment ... he runs 2nd.  He's on a surface he's only set hoof on on twice in his life and never raced.  He ships in for a grade one, he's in against older horses who are champions and who ONLY run on grass.  he's going a mile 3/8.  Do ya think we ask for his life every time he goes out, or what?  any one read a conditon book lately?  how much tuffer could we have entered him?

To generate more interest in the sport, copy the British model.  Why do we always have to reinvent the wheel in the US?

• Have all racing on the turf, rid the dirt and the synthetic debate.  Doing otherwise has proven to be bad business

• Run right-handed, not left-handed so when they come pounding down the stretch you can feel it – this will single-handily create fan interest

• Have a racing series highlighted by the Triple Crown races.  Series would start in March and end in Oct w/ about 25 highly selective Grade I events, all worth $3m and $5 for the TC races.  This would be very easy to market and for ESPN / press to follow along

• The Derby would be the 2nd or 3rd leg of the series (i.e. fewer prep races to allow for fresher horses thru out the year)

• Move the Preakness back a few weeks, but don’t overlap Memorial Day, Fathers Day or the US Open

• Move the Belmont Stakes to the Fall – this will allow the anticipation to build all year long

• Have the Brooklyn’s and Pimlico Special’s of the world on the undercard of the TC races, again to build marketing for the Series

• Have the 3 yr olds compete vs. olders outside of the Triple Crown races.  

• Horse w/ most pts at the end of the year is Horse of the Year.  An extra bonus if they can defend.  Again easy to market

• If we don’t do something we risk more Hialeah’s, Bay Meadow’s, Rockingham’s…

In what world is finishing Second in a Grade 1 event to a Breeders Cup Winner defeating another B.C. Winner not an impressive feat? Not to mention in his first trial on grass, in the heat and in my opinion being WAY under seasoned and prepped for it, being galloped around on the grass without a huge impressive move does not prove to me he was ready to take on such a task, no matter how great he is, and I do think he is GREAT. Now as far as racing older horses, I agree that it should be mandated to not allow breeding under 5 years old, sure, they can be retired if injured or becoming uncompetitive for pshycological or declining physical conditioning but if they are sound and at the same level, they should race, that way also we are preserving the sound horses in the breeding sheds, horses that are proven at 2,3, and 4, if not longer are obvioulsey sounder,more durable, with more heart and if they do well, that would improve the breeds standerds beyond what we could hope for. You ever look at the pics of the real good old Thoroughbreds? Big boned, big bodied, holy heck Secretariat looked like an 8 year old adult show stallion as a 3 year old, amazing! Curlin is turning into that as well, impressive and imposing. I have an 18 year old Thoroughbred jumper and he has only gotten better and more durable with age, faster, jumps cleaner, all tho he might not have the same physical stregth and endurance, he finds it because he is mature and developed. We don't need to resort to steriods if we are willing to wait untill our horses are developed, their bodies will develop the correct muscle mass and denseness needed if we would just listen to the horse and not are pocketbooks, some horses are totally ready at 2, others need to wait even untill 4 or 5. Look at Cigar...its plain to see but people just turn the other way.

Nancy you go girl! Bang on the money,this ain't Nascar.

Because Americans have the attention span of a flea. ESPN will bump us for tiddly winks. Unless there is a very popular TC contender with very popular connections going into the Belmont no one attends or watches it much right now.Belmont expected way over 100 thou and had supposedly 94.  Turf racing to most Americans isn't exciting like watching the dirt or poly dust fly. We aren't the English we're pioneers with the pioneer spirit who want our own identity. If you require Turf racing, there will be more tracks than the few you mentioned closing, all the smaller tracks with no turf course (even some of the ones with bigger and bigger purses all the time like Sunland Park). Japan racing is much bigger than English racing,(ever watch it on TVG, looks pretty empty) why don't we model it after them or better yet, try to improve our own product, horse, p.r. etc.

Curlin's basic problem to draw fans is like someone said way back on another blog: you can have a superstar horse but if you don't have connections that er connect with the public and casual racing fan it doesn't do much for racing. Most of the folks I know who are casual fans were cheering for Street Sense in the Preakness and were then cheering for Rags to Riches in the Belmont. Right or wrong that's just the way people are. We've seen it time and again and a lot of it on the various blogs on BH. There are too many nefarious (someone else used that remark I'm stealing it)and obnoxious characters associated with the horse, not a lot of likablility there outside of Robby.

Jason: Like you say it's nice to see a horse like Kip Deville still banging heads with the up and coming speed balls. Next up the CCA Oaks any thoughts?

JASON:

TOO BAD CURLIN'S TRAINER ISN'T ALSO A BELOVED FIGURE ALSO LOL.

Curlin does not have the style or turn of foot to win arguably the toughest race in the world.I give him tons of credit for running secound in a grade 1 but don't think he will hit the board in the Arc. Sure,nothing is certain in horse racing and if every thing set up for him he would have a chance, but over coming the trip, the course and the competition would seem to put him up against it.

Umm...okay, I just have one question for Tim Maz:  Have you ever been to an American racetrack?  What do you mean they should run right-handed instead of left-handed so you can feel it?  I was just at the track this weekend, standing next to the rail, and let me tell you I had no problem feeling it!  Are you trying to say that horses run lighter on their feet around left-handed turns?  You don't make any sense.  I'm not even going to address your other ideas, but I will say you have some lofty expectations there with the purse sizes.

As for Curlin, he's a champ, and anyone disappointed by a second place finish in a GI in his first try on a new surface needs to just take a deep breath...did you take it?  Okay, now go back and watch that race and enjoy the fact that you are seeing 3 BC champs in the same race!  Then, enjoy the fact that Curlin shows the heart of a champ not giving up in that stretch run.  He's still awesome in my eyes!

Lava Man definitely should get some respect and he should have been Horse of the Year at one point in time. I trust his owners and trainer are just happy to have such a great horse. He is super

Am I missing something???? I haven't seen anywhere where Curlin is being disregarded because he came in second in the Man o War. In fact, to the contrary. All I see is pure respect for the big guy.

The only thing that will keep the classic colts racing is classic owners who love horse racing more than money...or "investment portfolios" as they are known now ;-)

 I'm so pleased to see so many people acknowledging Curlin's valiant first effort on turf.  This was the first time since the early 90's that mutiple breeders cup winners ran in the same race.  That in itself speaks volumes for the quality he ran against, you really can't get any better than that.  

 I'm convinced that Curlin will be able to rise to the challenge of the turf (and the distance to those doubters) and conquer all comers.  He's been able to adapt to everything thrown at him so far, and I don't think he'll have any trouble winning on the turf.

Go Curlin!!

Lecy - Lava Man is a gelding.  He basically has nowhere else to go but a nice pasture.  He still seems to like his job, the way other great geldings have.

The problem is with our STALLIONS who get rushed off immediately to stud so their greedy owners can cash in quickly before they prove themselves failures.  If these guys stuck around the way Jackson is keeping Curlin in the mix, we'd learn more about what we might be breeding from horses like Curlin, instead of constantly speculating because the horse is done at three.  

I just wish Jackson would keep him going at 5, the way they do in Europe. There's a place where fully grown horses are appreciated and allowed to show their fully developed talents.  If only it was like that here!

I wish we could count on our "stars" for more than three seasons, though.  Only the second tier good horses seem to run at five and beyond.  Really sad and very bad for the breed and racing.

CURLIN..WHAT A HORSE. ANYTHING HE DOES IS JUST BREATH TAKING.TURF HORSE IS ALREADY PROVEN HE BEAT A BREEDERS CUP CHAMP IN BETTER TALK,WHO BEAT KITTEN'S JOY WHO IS PROBABLY THE BEST TURF HORSE IN AMERICA SINCE MANILA.

Now, I understand where Jason is coming from about you bloggers who do not bother to read his post and go right to "leave a comment".

Lecy and m burry-- we recognize Lava Man-- his place in history secure-- richest claimer in history, only one to register GI victories on three different surfaces, winnings over $5M, etc, etc. Forget the propensity for laying huge goose eggs when shipping out of California-- he remains for posterity an outstanding horse and a great story by any objective measure.

As Little Guy Breeder points out, however, Lava  Man is not intact, so the breeding shed not an option, so those compelling economics do not come into play when the decision made to continue to race him, as it was with the likes of John Henry. That IS the point. I referenced yet another top notch gelding still racing, Better Talk Now, because he had just raced in the same field with Curlin, the focal point of Jason's inquiry as to how we get older horses to race past 3. The answer: you have to figure out a way to shift the economics away from the breeding shed and back to the track. Good luck on that one.

So, enjoy the fluke of complex litigation and ownership issues which have kept Curlin on the track, resulting in another "non-decision" to keep him racing. You can applaud Jess Jackson if it makes you somehow feel better, and while Jackson certainly a class act, he had basically no choice but to continue to race him-- to do otherwise would have placed Jackson at odds with meeting his fudiciary responsibilities to the other owners, two of whom were then facing Federal wire fraud charges (although Jess how has his share up to 80%, I believe, after buying out partner George Bolton's share of Curlin), and Jackson being a lawyer before deciding to press grapes as Kendall-Jackson, I can assure you he knows what being a fudiciary means :-).

In sum, citing Lava Man only serves to make Jason's point, without addressing his question of how to keep the high profile horses racing past 3 and out of the breeding shed. I would never make it as either a handicapper OR a blog administrator.

Now, Little Guy Breeder, I know of a nice gr/r filly  with a great heart just retired off-the-track after a modest career who is by multiple graded stakes winner Wekiva Springs, who if bred to the right stallion....

Do you think that maybe Lava Man doesn't get as much attention as he gets because he doesn't race in the east? He is great and deserves lots more than he gets.

people people what's all this excitment about Curlin and how great on turf he was,granted he was ok and a game try it was, great no,and he was bet to 3/5 madness 3/1 max (6/1 on Red Rocks a steal)Rockenchef he did flatten out, next 20yds Better Talk Now gets 2nd running an 1/8 less then hiow best distance,he would never have caught Rocks if ran another 3f,for Darla,Kelly,Wanda let him stick to dirt what he does best at a mile and 1/4,Bc Turf NO! when there is no competion for him on dirt poly or not,and Wanda the Arc is not like running on any American turf track at all,its 1 1/2 miles,usually on good-soft ground,all G1 turfers that are distance specialists running clockwise with a grueling stretch oh and carrying 131,like Art said let him stay at home beat up on a very average division and retire he not Cigar,Skip Away,Tiznow,Ouja Board,Azeri need I go on these were great horses he is good not great even if he passes Cigar in earnings (purse sizes)Curlin 5 in row how many did Cigar manage against better competion.....

And Jason I agree when all said and done, let him stay cash his big cheque and ride into the sunset

Lava Man suffers from the same thing Best Pal did.  Cal Bred geldings are pretty low on the "Classic Totem" pole.  In his 5.6 million dollar lifetime, Best Pal at three, is second in the Kentucy Derby, steps up to older horses in the Pacific Classic and beats a Derby Winner in Unbridled, takes the Santa Anita Handicap (Older Horses) over Farma Way and Itsallgreektome, and finishes up his three year old year with a second place finish in the Breeders Cup Classic.  He continues his terror of Southern California(Packing in the fans) through age 7 taking a close (heartbreaking second) in the Santa Anita Big Cap in his twilight.  Does he even make the top 100 of all time greats?

Bryce, While I agree with most of what you say and you seem passionate about Thoroughbred horse racing, you yourself have said you are an eventer. Therefore I must disagree with you that Jess Jackson is a class act. This is a man who has taken litigous action against nearly everyone he has come into contact with in the thoroughbred racing industry. He basically threw us under the bus when he testified in front of Congress. Curlin is a beautiful colt. Helen Pitts put the bottom on this colt and even Asmussen has said that. Someone was scandalized that there were only 8-9000 at the race and someone else explained that. A lot of the comments on here are responses to others comments that make no sense to them or that they disagree with. And if you know about blog boards, you know that Jason has the abililty to edit, does so frequently does a great job of it. I'm sure he thinks that discourse like we have here, as long as it isn't attacks on EACH OTHER help boost the interest.

Curlin is a rock star.  He's also the best looking rock star I have ever seen, Robert Plant and Steven Tyler move over.  He tried his best on the turf, like he always does, and hopefully we'll see him go against Big Brown in the Breeder's Cup Classic, since the turf thing didn't work out. In a way,  I'm kind of happy the turf didn't work because I want to see him run here.  He is America's horse.

The unregulated greed of corporate capitalism has ruined the American economy in the last eight years and it is ruining horse racing "industry." A regulatory body that would force owners to keep sound horses on the track until after their 5th year is so badly needed for the owners themselves have succumbed to the greed of an unrestrained materialism that sadly reduces the former "Sport of Kings" to the business of breeding to amass extravagant fortunes. As Rachel remarked, the "Sport of Kings" needs owners who love the sport more than money, but unfortunately the Jess Jackson's of the racing world are the rarest of exceptions now and it will take a regulatory body to force owners to do what they no longer will do willingly for they love mammon more than racing. What a breath of fresh air it would be if Jackson allows Curlin to tell this owner and Steve Asmussen when he's ready to leave the track and not the allures of the lucrative breeding stall. We might have another great handicap horse on the order of a Damascus, a Buckpasser, or a Dr. Fager to enjoy for years to come. We'd have a horse that took on the best - not one with whom an owner picked his spots so as to assure an untarnished success that meant megadollars in the breeding stall. If Jackson would so act with Curlin, he would go down as the greatest sportsmen in modern racing history. He should take a cue from the enthusiastic response of the racing public to Curlin in victory or defeat and be enlightened enough to see that this is just what racing needs to revive its reputation as the "Sport of Kings."

Agree with Maggie.  We need to have more horse races like the 1988 San Bernadino Handicap.  You Tube this and enjoy Alysheba and Ferdinand carrying 127 pounds each dueling through fractions of 109 1/5 and 134 3/5ths.  These handicap races for older horses are our Tripple Crown.  The 1988 Santa Anita Handicap is almost as good.

If you don't try... All I'm saying is they want to take a shot and why not? Would it be easier to stay home and beat a bunch of "mediocre" horses yes it would.I understand what they are up against but it's their call.Have you never stuck your neck out Steveuk30ca and did something everybody said you couldn't do? There's a million storys out there about people that took a shot at 50-1 odds. Think about it.

Curlin like Afleet Alex and Smarty Jones has a deep bottom that can keep him racing and winning as long as his owner wants.

Lava Man is exactly what the sport needs. However, and this is difficult for me to say (as a person who grew up in Cali but now lives in Midwest), Lava man is largely a regional phenomenon. Because lava Man has run so few times outside of Cali, and because he has lost all these races (usually running poorly), East Coast observers have never really embraced him as a star. Of course in Cali, Lava Man is a true rock star. In fact, Lava Man is much more a rock star in California than Curlin is in the midwest or east. It is estimated that for last year's Hollywood Gold cup Lava Man's presence doubled the attendance (up to 20,000). Given Lava Man's amazing accomplishments in the state, many Californians rate Lava Man among the very best horses ever; Lava Man is frequently thrown in the same sentence as Seabiscuit and John Henry. And given what Lava Man has accomplished, such comparisons are valid. At one point Lava Man had won 12 of his last 13 Cali starts, 7 in grade 1 (on dirt, turf, synthetic), including a sweep of the Big Cap + Gold Cup 2 straight years (winning 6 of the 7 Cali handicap "majors"). When one really compares resumes, Lava Man has been the most successful/accomplished handicap runner in Cali histroy. With all this said, I don't think Lava Man would crack most Midwesterners' and east coasters' top 10 list of the decade. The divergence of opinion on Lava Man reminds me somewhat of SlewO'Gold. When easterners would swear that SlewO'Gold was one of the best handicap horses of recent times, californians would stare with the same puzzled look that east coasters make today when the subject of Lava Man comes up. Curlin, on the other hand, is much more of a national or even international figure, having been exposed to fans all over in the Triple Crown races, Breeders Cup, and Dubai World Cup. Racing needs more than just its top 3 year old returning to race; it needs its Triple Crown stars to return. Tiznow, the 2000 horse of the year at 3, returned as a 4 year old, but his career never garnered cross-over fame because he did not run in any of the Triple Crown races. Whether we like it or not, the Triple Crown races are the portal to greater national exposure;  the pool of true "rock star" horses is limited to those horses that run in the Triple Crown races. The irony is that by virtue of running well in the Triple Crown, these are the horses most likely to be sent to stud early.

Katsan--

Would like to hear you and others speak more about Jess Jackson-- I guess I too easily excuse his litigating tendencies because he is, after all, a lawyer by both training and disposition.

I am a HUGH Helen Pitts fan, so you will get no argument from me about the excellent foundation she laid vis-a-vis Curlin. Look at the job she is doing with Einstein on the turf, among others in her barn. If she isn't "offically" among the "trainer elite", she sure will be soon enough. Sidebar No. 1: I came off my first horse, a hard-headed Bureau of Land Management Mustang, eventually rolling into a corn field, less than a mile from where Helen grew up in Monkton, MD.

As for Jackson's Hill testimony, where he basically called for giving the industry one last chance to clean up and organize its own governance act before Congress steps in, he was actually less pejorative than what both Arthur Hancock and Jack Van Berg had to say as part of the same panel (Sidebar No. 2: Jack trained Gary Stevens' mount in the 1986 Derby, Wheatly Hall, with Wheatly Hall's first crop in 1989 featuring the now 19 YO accomplished eventer who is my dream and horse of a lifetime, Bryce Be Quick).

Also, it was Jackson who concluded the "industry's business model broken" because it rewards breeding (and in his view, too much "inbreeding") to the determent of racing. Jackson's testimony thus seems germane to Jason's line of discussion, here, yes?

In sum, if Jackson was, as you allow, throwing anyone under the bus, what was Jack doing when he called modern day racing "chemical warfare" and Hancock concluded "we are a rudderless ship"? Frankly, I find much to agree with in the testimony of both Jack and Hancock.

Sure, the panel was stacked, but that is typical Capital Hill Theater of the Absurd, particularly when Dutrow wisely decided not to play the role of desiganted sacrifical lamb, and didn't even bother to call the Committee staff to say he was, in his words, "off his game" and unable to travel to DC to testify, after initially accepting the invitation to appear. You're a gem, Rick.

So, in a lame attempt to have the "last word", being unable to compell Rick's testimony (I wonder if Committee Counsel ever decided if Rick would be sent questions and be asked to respond for the record?), the Committee left Dutrow's name plate on the witness table in front of the empty chair. Not sure if the chair would have been any less empty if Rick had been sitting in it-- would have been entertaining, if nothing else, to watch that mouth of his engage, as it frequently does, before what little is left of his own chemically-altered brain kicks in. Rick, like Helen and me, a Marylander by birth. The yings and yangs of life with horses in the Old Line State.

And finally, yes, of course, you are right about the digressions (or as I call them here, "sidebars")-- actually a strength of this blog, and not the handicap (shouldn't use that term here) I made it out to be, so please accept my apology. Wish I could exhibit that same degree of healthy flexibility in the saddle, and in falling off.

Yes Wanda every day when I provide and work for my kids with no complaints or objections....and yes he should stay here I am not knocking Curlin as a racehorse but there is no need to risk him on soft ground, at 1 1/2 miles,carrying 131 pounds in the toughest turf race going against far higher ranked turf horses than he faced this past weekend running on a nice flat manicured lawn.......just to feed his trainers ego,please research the ARC go to youtube watch it see how the track is  almost looks like Dubai going clockwise ....my problem is horses are so fragile,race 3 maybe 4 times a year have to wrap them in cotton wool no rivalries ..

he goes back on the good old DIRT where he belongs...he's not JOHN HENRY(if they had wrote a race on I95 JOHN would have found a way to WIN on it)THE FREAK ...but CURLIN is one hell of a HOSS...Long Live The Dirt!!!

No disrespect intended Steveuk30,but I don't think Curlin is fragile.However what I think means nothing. They got him this far sound and happy and top and bottem he is bred for the grass and the distance.It's nice to see a fellow Canuk on this blog are you BC bred? I'm right next door in cow town.

If Curlin was my horse I would take him to California and start acclimating him now. Start training him on the synthetic surfaces and see how it goes. If the Breeders Cup is being run on a synthetic track this year I would want to find out now if he can handle it or not.  If he can not,  then I would go for the Breeders Cup Mile because I don't think a mile and a half is his best distance, although much depends on who is going to show up.  Then again, do we know if Big Brown is going to like the synthetic tracks?  He may not like it either and then again he may love it with those tender feet of his.

I think that most people are rushing to judge Curlin's performance on the turf as unimpressive because they want him back on the dirt and racing against Big Brown. I for one would like to see Curlin continue on the turf as his first effort showed that he could handle it but that it is a lot different from dirt so he needs the time to train and adjust to the difference. I give Curlin credit as I believe he will show that he can win and win big on the grass. It would be nice to see him continue to race on both surfaces as I believe he can handle Big Brown as well.

With respect FormerFan most turf horses can handle synthetic tracks.You see more "turf" pedigree using this surface,less scratches cause it's off the grass.I will say this again as I have said it before.Curlin seems to be able to run on anything.Good ones don't carry their track around with them.

I read the entire blog and I didn't see this so with a chance of repeating someone the Older or Handicap Triple Crown was the Metropolitan, the Suburban and the Brooklyn handicap.  I don't remember if anyone since Tom Fool has won it recently.

Wanda: I would have to respectfully disagree with you regarding good horses being able to run on anything. Synthetic is new. None of the good or great horses of the past have ever ran on it. It is hard to know where these horses would stand given a sythetic surface. I do agree a turf horse "seems" to be able to handle synthetic better because it resembles turf more so than dirt but even some turf horses struggle with it. Too bad horses can't talk. I would love to hear what they have to say about running on synthetic. I went jogging the other day on a gravel road. What a disaster. I will never do that again.

Julie L: The poll taken in response to Jackson asking the fans what should be done with Curlin is coming up with more people wanting to see him continue on the turf. My hope would be that he stays in America. I just don't feel good about the Arc.

Lava Man heads up this Sunday's 400,000 Eddie Read Handicap (Gr I) at Del Mar.  He's not BC nominated but some other local horses that love the synthetics are Zenyatta, Georgie Boy, and Col. John.  I agree with FormerFan and would add Big Brown to the list of early shippers who should be taking in a race or two at the Oak Tree meet before the Breeders Cup.  

Wanda none taken,from UK originally yes in Vancouver now....Curlin yes he his quite the horse...but a majority others are so fragile could you have imagine Curlin,Invasor BC Classic...to close to call

Karen2 - I saw the poll and participating on it and was glad to see that people do want to see Curlin stay on the turf. Thanks.

In an age of stars retiring early, Evening Attire is well deserving of winning this weekend at Philly and even if he doesn't, to me he still deserves Curlin like attention.

Can't wait for Casino Drive @ Oak Tree in September.His handlers are doing the best thing for him by giving him a prep on the synthetic.He's my early-bird pick for the BCC..As for Curlin: I feel he's much better on Dirt,but the BCC is @ Oak Tree so I think they should try him on the stuff.If he goes in the Arc,he will get clobbered!He just doesn't have that acceleration on turf needed to win the toughest turf race on the planet,I think.

Regarding Rggc's comment about the Handicap Triple Crown: Only four horses in history have swept it, with the last being Fit to Fight in 1984.

The Handicap Triple Crown is indeed moribund as a concept these days, and given the current stakes schedule, it's unlikely to be revived any time soon. This summer, the Met Mile came less than two weeks before the 1 1/2-mile Brooklyn, which has now been packaged as a stepping stone to the new BC (Dirt) Marathon.

I just heard about Evening Attire! That'll be a treat to see him run again! And about Curlin. I try to think of the Arc like to Kentucky Derby. (I know there not the same whatsoever) BUT. Not always does the best horse wins. Curlin could end up really enjoying the turf, he had what? Two works before the Man o' War, and yeah he didn't run on it like he does on dirt but get some more works in him and another turf race and he might turn out to really like it. I give him a legitimate chance to show up for the Arc. I rarely hear about a good US horse going over to Europe so I give him and everyone involved Kudos for even thinking about it! Then again I could be totally wrong......

I looked at the entries for Philly this afternoon and seen the other old man in what a kicker Jason.I hope he gets the job done too.How about Surf Cat at Del Mar. He's pretty good right now.

I'm looking forward to seeing Red Rocks continue his racing career here in America, because I think that this year he could win his 2nd BC Turf. Also, I'm rooting for Tin Cup Chalice to complete the Big Apple triple in the Albany Stakes, after winning the NY Derby here in CNY.

As far as Curlin's performance, I think that it is exciting to wonder if he's going to improve over the turf or to see if he's met his match.  So many owners are afraid to really challenge their horse because it could negatively impact their stud fee.  It's more sporting to keep challenging Curlin (as they have) to see what he can do.  Whether he runs at home or abroad, whether he wins or loses, I enjoy seeing him get out there and race.

Jason: I'm also thrilled to see that Evening Attire is still fit and ready to race at 10.  I say this very tongue-in-cheek, but how come it seems like geldings are made of sterner stuff that can hold up to years of frequent races?  Whenever an expensive stallion prospect (such as Smarty Jones) is retired due to mild injuries found in training, I can't help but wonder if he is actually fine and that is code for "we can't afford to risk him". I guess in the old days, owners weren't so much in the business of racing as they were in the sport of racing.  

ANyway, I definitely appreciate the owners of horses that run into their five year old season such as Medaglia D'Oro, Aldebaran, and Black Tie Affair.  Thanks for letting us watch them run for so many years before sending them to the shed!

Rggc

In answer to the Handicap Triple Crown being won since Tom Fool the answer is yes in 1961 Kelso did who was a great gelding.

BB is bred to be a turf horse. I wouldn't mind seeing him run on the turf again and if its a must, on synthetic (yuck). Curlin could get better on the turf as the MOW definately wasn't a "bounce" by any sense of the imagination. I would love to see them race eachother. Curlin is mature and experienced but when BB is on he is a force to be reckoned with and could prove to be a handful for Curlin. Curlin may end up with the last word though. I don't know but it would be exciting.

Bryce, Jackson sued almost every agent who ever bought a horse for him, he sued others regarding a farm puchase. He made his fortune in Wine, I believe, not as much as a lawyer. He testified that owners have no representation (news to the TOBA)in his normal petty way he said that trainers should have no say in simulcast issues, they are only the 'agents for the owners'. As far as Ricky Dutrow is concerned I'm afraid that you are totally correct. However I think he could have done terrible harm if he were allowed to speak. He is the epitome of a loose cannon. What a shame because I understand from a trainer who knows him that he is a superb horseman who is constantly shooting himself and this industry in the foot. Kind of like a Barry Bonds of the equine world. As far as the others testimony I understand from a lot of sources that there wasn't really time for anyone to offer any concrete solutions. Knock on wood I haven't fallen off since I was a little kid. Have had them fall with me, come up over the top of me when ponying them to the track, buck with me but haven't gotten me off in a long time. My sister on the other hand has had them fall on her, run her into a fence, lay down with her, flip over backwards etc, she hasn't been bucked off or fallen off ever. But she's the better rider and does it for a living.

P.S. Bryce,

Jack was just being Jack, he'll say the same thing to your face that he does to Congress. Hancock, well no comment. Really though none of them that testified did much to help racing and I can't quite figure Randy Moss being called to testify.

The NY Handicap triple (Met Mile, Suburban, Brooklyn) is basically dead. Anyways, it was a regional series and not really comprable to the Triple Crown, especially as racing in California became stronger. The decline in prestige is similar for the Triple Tiara, as 3 New York races do not really reveal the country's best filly. With the numerous changes in scheduling and distances, the NY handicap triple is rarely discussed by the media these days. Historically, the Met Mile has been run Memorial Day weekend, the 1 and 1/4 mile Suburban on Independence day, and the 1 and 1/2 mile Brooklyn a few weeks later. However, in 1991 the Brooklyn was shortened to 1 and 3/8 mile and reschuduled. Since then, the Brooklyn has been shortened further to 1 and 1/8 mile before being returned to 1 and 1/2 mile this year, and has been run at a number of different dates, including September 22 last year, and lost its grade 1 status in 1993. The last I remember the Handicap Triple receiving much attention was in 1995 when You and I won the Met Mile, then the Brooklyn (changed that year to before the Suburban and at 1 and 1/8 mile) before failing in the Suburban. In 1991, In Excess won the Met Mile and Suburban, but because of scheduling, couldn't make the Brooklyn. Instead, In Excess ran in and won the Whitney, and a number of people commented that they considered those three wins as equivalent to winning the Handicap Triple, especially considering the greater prestige of the Whitney (as a "marathon" the Brooklyn was increasingly losing favor). As a side note, In Excess would go on to win the Woodward as well, giving him 4 straight New York grade 1s.

How can Lava Man not be Breeder's Cup nominated when he's already run in the Classic?  That doesn't make any sense.  

Curlin is a 4 year-old that never ran at two.  He has 20 less races in his career than Cigar.  Let him run through his six year-old season with 20 more races and how many more millions do you think he will win?  I guarantee it would be higher than Cigar's inflation adjusted figure.  

It amazes me why people knock this horse.

Will W,

Agreed that the duel between Alysheba and Ferdinand at SA was a classic - Still get chills recalling how great Alysheba looked walking onto the main track - Head was bowed - Reminded me of a Tennessee Walker - His prancing almost turned into a frolic -

Didn't the late Eddie Gregson send Super Diamond to the lead with Ferdinand and Alysheba far behind until the middle of the back stretch?  Then, they sorta eyeballed one another and the real race was on - Head to head, nose to nose, for over a half a mile - True Champions.

Thanks Kellie and Cyd, I knew it had been done but I couldn't remember the stars that did it.  Your right Kellie, the Handicap Triple is dead now that they changed that schedule. Its a shame, hope they come up with an official one to fill the void.

I think that the supposed "poll" that Jackson has posted on the Go Curlin website is rigged. I am heavily wired to the North American horse racing industry and I do not know even ONE person who wants to watch Curlin struggle through a turf campaign. His stride simply isn't conducive to being as great on grass as he is on dirt. Either Jackson is afraid to face Big Brown or Big Brown's connections are fixing that poll to come in favoring turf. Seriously, who among us does not want to see the 2 great Thoroughbreds of our time in a match race, besides the owners who are concerned about stud fees?????

Karen2 I get what you are saying but dirt tracks are not all the same.You'd think dirt is dirt but it depends on the location. My husband is the race operations foreman for the track here and depending on the time of year he may add sand or even shavings to the track.I've seen alot of racetracks all over the US and Canada and they can range from deep dirt to almost pure sand.The old saying "horses for courses" comes into play here.A good horse can ship anywhere and still run well. A differint surface does not faze them at all.That's what I meant to say and didn"t yesterday.I am a firm believer in synthetic tracks and as I quoted on another site, I'd take soft tissue injuries over catasrophic breakdowns anyday.

Karen 2-- I am all for/with you on having bad vibs about Curlin running in the Arc. What makes his connections think he can navigate that roller coaster of a course?

If he has to run on turf and it for whatever reason it has to be some venue other than in North America, I think the better spot would be the Irish Stakes, with a course which looks more forgiving and more US turf-like, save for the uphill grade in the final stretch.

Frankly, if I were mapping out a turf-based plan for him, I would point to the Arlington and then bring him back in the BC on the turf. The only recent Triple Crown winner I have seen with a turf turn of foot who I think would have been a legitimate threat in the Arc was Barbaro.

Taking nothing away from Curlin or Red Rocks, but the later a middle-of-the-pack turf runner on the international stage, and he handled Curlin with comparative ease. Curlin would have to make a quantum leap to be competitive with the even better horses he would be seeing in the Arc. Bottom Line: can't see what Jess Jackson apparently sees.

Berttheclock - I was there at Hollywood Park for the Classic between Alysheba and Ferdinand and for me the most impressive was watching Alysheba on the turn for home putting in his run with his saddlecloth waving and hearing the announcer call out "and here comes Alysheba". I believe it was Super Diamond but I also remember Judge Angelucci, they both overtook the two and made their powerful stretch run, it was awesome.

Um,sorry..got lost reading the memoirs' of katsan..Anyways,if Curlins' people are hesitant to race him on turf or synthetics then 1 other option would be to keep him on dirt tracks,where there's plenty of prestigious/big money races on tab.And then they can ship him overseas for the Japan Cup,where if he wins,he would truly become an International Rock Star!..yes?..no?

Wanda: When the research is in and they can show synthetic is really much safer than dirt, I might fall for it. But right now there just isn't enough evidence. I personally feel that all the great ones ran on dirt. They had no where near the catastrophic break downs we see today. Yes, it happened and it always will to some degree, but I believe the problem lies elsewhere and synthetic tracks are probably the quickest fix to what is a complicated problem. I will agree with Steve Haskin when he says synthetic tracks are causing an inbalance in racing right now.

I think that Curlin should go to the Pacific Classic, follwed up by another California prep, in preperation for the BC Classic. Or he could go to a race like the Arlington Million and then another turf race and go to the BC Turf. I don't know why the latter route is being overlooked. I mean to me it seems as though it's the Classic, the Arc or retirement, when the BC Turf is a very viable option.

Berttheclock...Julie L

Ferdinand and Alysheba met for a total of 4 races.  The first meeting was the 1987 Breeder's Cup Classic at Hollywood Park.  They sent Judge Angelucci and Candy's Gold to the front.  "The Two Derby Horses hit the wire together."  (Ferdinand by a nose taking horse of the year honors).  The second meeting was a little later that year with Super Diamond and Judge Angelucci being sent in the 1988 Santa Anita Handicap.  Ferdinand and Alysheba (who were about 10 lengths behind those two) collared them (more like inhaled them) at the 3/4 pole.  Nod went to Alysheba.  This set up the rubber match, the 1988 San Bernadino Handicap 6 weeks later.  Check this one out on You Tube.  Top 5 races ever!  I still remember Trevor Deman's call as they rounded the corner.  "This is the match race that we have been waiting for!"  Nose goes to Alysheba.  They met once again in the 1988 Gold Cup with both loosing (Alysheba 2nd, Ferdinand 3rd).  Pretty impressive for a horse (Alysheba) who had only 1 maiden win (2 for 10) entering the Kentucky Derby.  (He had also won the Blue Grass in his final prep but was DQd).  It's a good thing he was not retired after the Triple Crown.