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What Did We Learn From Big Brown's Haskell?

 

It is not often that a horse wins a $1 million grade I race and people still walk away scratching their heads.

Was it a good performance or not?

It is a difficult question to answer. Then again, we should not have expected anything less. From the very start, everything about Big Brown seems to be complicated.

On Sunday at Monmouth Park, Big Brown won the Haskell Invitational, as he collared front-running Coal Play inside the sixteenth-pole to win by 1 3/4 lengths. In one respect, Big Brown did exactly what his connections wanted him to do - rebound from his disappointment in the Belmont Stakes and restore his reputation.

On the other hand, it was not the visually impressive performance that many expected - including trainer Rick Dutrow Jr. - and it was far from a resounding win. In fact, the horse he struggled to beat, Coal Play, had only maiden and allowance wins to show for his eight-start career.

So, what did we learn?

For one, the most important thing is that Big Brown did what he had to do to continue his racing career. Had he come up empty down the stretch, as it appeared for a short while that he was going to do, there is a decent possibility that we would have seen the last of the dual classic winner. After hearing Mike Iavarone afterward, it seems fairly certain that Big Brown will race at least twice more before his career ends. In that respect, it was an important win.

Also, after looking at the replays several times, I give Big Brown a little more credit than I did while watching the race live. One must take into consideration that he was entering off a nearly two-month layoff and won despite coming off a last place finish in his most recent race, something no horse had ever done in the Haskell.

More importantly, after seeing the fractions and final time, it must be pointed out that Coal Play ran a terrific race. As stated above, Coal Play had done nothing prior to this race for people to say he was anything but an average 3-year-old. But you can take nothing away from the fact that he ran a :23 opening quarter, :46 2/5 half-mile, 1:10 4/5 for six furlongs and 1:35 mile. They are very solid splits. Anyone, let alone Big Brown, would have a difficult time running down a horse who runs those numbers. And the final time of 1:48.31 was respectable.

And while it was obvious that Coal Play was leg weary in that final furlong, give Big Brown a lot of credit for having the grit to run by him when he was obviously not at his best.

On the flip side of this debate, anyone who watched the Haskell could see that Big Brown did not have the same explosiveness that he showed in every one of his other races (save the Belmont, of course). Kent Desormeaux certainly did not have a "freak" under him, as he has in the past. He had a very good race horse that used his talent and experience to get the job done. And as all of know by now, he got the job done against a very average field.

So what did Big Brown's Haskell win really tell us? Other than it appears he has regressed a bit from the first half of the year, not much. I am going to need to see him run these final two races before I make my final judgment on him. I will also need to see what Coal Play does the rest of the year to really see who Big Brown beat.

The early rumors are that Iavarone will send him to either the Massachusetts Handicap or the Pennsylvania Derby (Wow, imagine Big Brown coming to Philly Park). But this won't be decided for a week or more. In the meantime, let's do what we do best - analyze this performance until we're blue in the face.

268 Comments:

To me Hard Spun's Kings Bishop and Big Brown's Haskell, were very similar in that close to the wire they came up on a challenger and then they pulled away by 1 to 2 lengths for the win.

Huh 03 Aug 2008 10:30 PM

Oh and both Hard Spun and Big Brown displayed the amount of heart each of them have and the amount of guts they can display in the heat of the moment.

Huh 03 Aug 2008 10:31 PM

I was really happy that Big Brown won but I was not real impressed with the performance - especially with the competition.  I suspect he got tired from the layoff but I still personally question continual short works to get a horse ready for longer distances....? I suppose the trainer knows best so who is anyone to second guess.  He won and that was the goal! No consideration for the Travers...?  Too bad - that may be a more competitive race.

Racingfan 03 Aug 2008 10:32 PM

I still love this horse, even if he would come the dead last - for me he showed enough in his previous races. Did anyone see any other horse having such an acceleration (except Belmont and Haskel, unfortunately)??? He is a great horse, nobody can take that away from him, I hope he will show us his "late kicks" in the next races :-)

Go, Brownie GO!!!!!!

Ruffian Windy City 03 Aug 2008 10:35 PM

Jason:

Big Brown should have won this race and I am glad he did.  He also "needed" to win this race to not suffer for his race in the Belmont.  I think over time his Belmont will be forgiven as a result of inadequate training (referencing Billy Turner's masterful analysis of the Triple Crown campaign).

As Big Brown was coming up to this race, I was happy to see Dutrow working him steady.  I especially liked the blowout the other day.  Every great horse is going to have races like this.  A classy horse, who needs a race, should find a way to win.

I am also happy with the time.  Obviously, Coal Play is on the improve.  I think a worse outcome today would be same order of finish and same type of finish, but in 1:50 and change.

May the fall 3 year old races heat up and be exciting especially with Macho Again and Zito's horses.  The disappointment today was Atoned.

Donovan Colt Torp 03 Aug 2008 10:43 PM

I think Big Brown's race was more impressive the more you watch it. He has a ton of heart, which all great horses have. As you noted, Coal Play ran a great race, which Big Brown had to beat, and he did. Forget the other horses, they weren't the competition, Coal Play was and he was rock solid. So Big Brown didn't beat a claimer, he beat a horse who ran a very good race. As you also noted, he came back to win the Haskell after being pulled up in the Belmont. From last to first, pretty impressive. I also agree that these short, intermittent workouts are not great when you're trying to win at longer distances. Remember Curlin was third in this race last year. I don't think he is the horse he was at the start of the year, but he is still a great horse and deserves Horse of the Year. Maybe he will be back to full form by October.

Paula Higgins 03 Aug 2008 10:44 PM

The rider said Big Brown always liked to drift in the stretch, which is OK. Kind of. Don't remember him doing that in the Derby or Preakness.

He was getting out in the turn, and thats not too good. It suggests something bothering him on the left side. It is not necessarily a huge problem, but it could be. It could be one of a hundred things, from a sore tooth to a suspensory. I imagine Dutrow is concerned, whether he would say it publically or not. Hope he is fine, but I bet they find something.

I live near Louisiana Downs. Would love to see them send him here for the Super Derby. There has been some great horses come thru that race.

Sherrie 03 Aug 2008 10:47 PM

I think Big Browns race was pretty good.He did what he needed to,why do more?He did not beat a steller field but i can't say many of the other 3 year olds he would run against are "steller".It seemed as if it took him some time to get going.Not as push button.Even though if I were a horse who was pulled up in the exact spot he stop in the Haskell I would like to stop running as well.We will just have to see what Big Brown does in his next starts.But Overall I think he did well,he had to dig down today and give it a little more.

opps 03 Aug 2008 10:51 PM

Big Brown was drifting out from the turn and all thru the stretch.  Something is definitely wrong and he should be shut down until the middle of next year.

leot6161 03 Aug 2008 10:57 PM

First, Coal Play ran a 102 Beyer winning by 9 lengths two races back at Monmouth. So he has shown before that he is a good horse. Second, the track was favoring speed and was very difficult to make up any ground. These two facts makes this race much more impressive to me for Big Brown. Not to mention he hasn't raced in two months.

Rick 03 Aug 2008 11:01 PM

Action Jackson, Steve, Scott and Curlin, made the right play by ignoring Big Brown, and especially Dutrow's mouth.  As it appears right now Big Brown is not Breeders' Cup Classic material.  Long season, it doesn't end in May like most people who tend to label horses in early spring!

The race speaks for itself, the Big Brown team of faces said it all.

Though I am a big fan of Big Brown, and hate to mention this, but I don't believe the horse is comfortable with the feel of his feet in such situations anymore, i.e. racing.  Smart horse.

Curlin HOTY 2007-2008 03 Aug 2008 11:02 PM

Big Brown was not at his best, but I think that has a lot to do with the trainer.  I have never felt that Dutrow was the best trainer for Brownie and have always thought he would do MUCH better with Pletcher or Zito.  Seeing him today going into the final stretch reminded me strongly of the Belmont.  If Brownie could win this race looking like he was beat, it makes me wonder if he could've shown the same guts & grit to win the Belmont had Kent not pulled him up.  I hope they don't replace the jockey on him, as Brownie does trust Kent, but at the same time, I'm a little disappointed in Kent right now.  

Overall, Brownie ran a great race and you can't take a single thing away from Coal Play.  Obviously, Zito sees something in him to have entered him into the Haskell.  I don't think Brownie should have another 2 month lay off, although I do understand why they aren't aiming at the Travers, it might be a bit too soon.  The Brownie we saw today could not beat Curlin, but hopefully by the time the Breeders Cup rolls around, he'll be ready and fit to make the Classic a good race!

Racing Fan 03 Aug 2008 11:02 PM

He got out quite a bit in the Florida Derby, it's nothing new.  

I'm happy with the race, without Coal Play in there (who deserves credit for running a very good race), he wins by six lengths in 1:48 1/5 and everybody's happy and talking about how he's as good as ever.  It was good to see him tested and he finished up strongly.  I'm proud of him.

Johanna 03 Aug 2008 11:03 PM

While he did show true heart, he should still be looked at again. I know they said it isn't too strange for him to drift, he still seemed a bit off. Maybe he got a bit confused because where he didn't charge was exactly where he'd been eased in the Belmont. And coming off a long lay-off he may have been a bit out of it mentally. I guess we'll hae to wait for his next race.

Kekira 03 Aug 2008 11:13 PM

Thank you Opps.  When I saw Kent ask Big Brown to run and nothing much happened, the first thought I had was "Why should he?"  If anyone thinks BB doesn't remember what happened the last time he was in the same position, they're sadly underestimating his intelligence.  As far as the drifting out, first, he seems to like the middle of track better and second, BB knows it's where Kent D. always seems to be dragging him.

Unfortunately, what I also saw was a thoroughbred who wasn't having as much fun racing as he did before he got manhandled in the Belmont.

Harrison 03 Aug 2008 11:20 PM

O.k. one question, why do you have to see what Coal Play does the rest of the year to decide how good a race Big brown ran? What matters is the kind of race Coal Play ran today and it was darn good. That's the horse Big Brown beat, the Coal Play that showed up today. It's irrelevant what Coal Play does the rest of the year. Although Big Brown did not have the explosiveness that he showed in the Derby and Preakness, he sure did have another gear and he used it to win.

Paula Higgins 03 Aug 2008 11:20 PM

Paula Higgins: We need to see what Coal Play does the rest of the year, and his career for that matter, to be able to judge Big Brown's place in history. Horses are judged not only by the races they win, but by who they beat.

jshandler 03 Aug 2008 11:24 PM

Good points Rick. I hate to say this but I am wondering if it's the way kent Desormeaux is riding him. I still don't think he should have been pulled up in the Belmont. I think Desormeaux sensed that he didn't have quite the same horse under him and panicked.

Paula Higgins 03 Aug 2008 11:29 PM

jshandler: I understand your point but look at what he has done. Some people think he ran the greatest Kentucky Derby ever from the 20th post. I could go on but I know you know what the horse has actually accomplished. No, he isn't the second coming of Man O'War or Secretariat but he is still a great horse. He isn't going to run as a 4 year old like Curlin. I wish he was. Then we could really see what his legacy would be. I still think he is a great horse.  

Paula Higgins 03 Aug 2008 11:35 PM

I was there, thank God! I knew there would be remarks like this. BB did NOT take a while to get started! Coal Play broke like a bullet! Very nice run...but, BB went right where he needed to be and stayed there. He did what he had to do and beat a horse that was running a great race. When I first saw him today, I was just floored. He was incedibly fit, lean and just gleaning. And humidity was low, no sweating, he was perky, shiny, tail swishing and ears pricked. He looked so happy to be there, he literally took my breath away. Any worries I had, faded away, I knew he had it! And it's so sweet to be able to stand by everything I've said about this horse and watch him win. Jason, I just said to my husband on the way home that Dutrow would have loved to go to the Travers but 3 weeks between races worried him. I then said, 4 weeks is the PA Derby, wouldn't it be fabulous if he came there. We agreed! So glad to hear they could actually bring Brownie to Philly Park! I will be waiting for news on that one!!

normajean81258 03 Aug 2008 11:37 PM

Paula: The second half of his season is very important in judging his place in history.

jshandler 03 Aug 2008 11:38 PM

Rick....I'm going to have to get my programs out of the car, but if I remember correctly, ny program showed that only Big Brown had run a 102 or higher out of the 7 horses in the Haskell. I'll check tomorrow....

normajean81258 03 Aug 2008 11:43 PM

While at first glance Brown's performance was less than exhilerating, his time was very decent and he's coming off a race in which he was pulled up.  If my records and memory are correct, there have been only 3 sub 1:48 Haskell's in the last 20 years and Brown's time today would have beat the past 5 winners. He did what he needed to do, what everyone gets paid for: he won.  And he showed that he could grit it out if needed.  That said, I don't think he is as fit or sharp right now as he needs to be to run with older horses.  Dutrow needs to get this horse ready for a Fall campaign.

Runfast159 03 Aug 2008 11:43 PM

I am glad and applaud that Big Brown won; however, I am not too overly impressed that “He is back” by the effort, especially being the kind of colt that showed that "explosive turn of foot" that many referenced to that of Secretariat.  (To me, no one could possibly utilize any kind of turns in the same manner as Secretariat.)  I do have to say, seeing Big Brown going around the far turn in the Haskell, he looked like he was struggling, and I felt like déjà vu (the Belmont) flashed before my eyes.  He literally struggled down the homestretch to catch the front runner, which is not a very good sign, especially one that was touted as the best of the crop.  (If anyone cared to notice, Kent Desormeaux looked like he was literally pushing and working hard on the colt to win).  By mere observance, he ran lack luster today.    He needs to show a much, MUCH better performance for anyone to think that he could match strides with the older horses, such as Curlin.  The long layoff and the odd work schedule possibly contributed to the subpar performance, but I am not all that too entirely convinced.  The win will most definitely boost Big Brown's confidence to the maximum, which is a plus and might contribute to a better effort next time out.

What I am more looking forward to is Big Brown facing a larger field and very much the improving and the better half of the three-year-old crop in the Travers.  Going against a much stiffer competition will surely produce to the public the TRUE TEST, rather than running in the PA Derby (I love the PA Derby, by the way, but the way the Travers is shaping up, it just won't hold the same type of caliber as the Travers, at least in my opinion).  Either that or go up against the ol' veteran but still awesome champion in Commentator in the Mass Cap; now THAT will be a race that I'm definitely eager to see.

Remember, Big Brown hasn't really faced all that much, whereas Commentator still keeps kicking (images of him beating the eventual Horse of the Year in Saint Liam come before my eyes) while beating the best every year and bringing his game all the time, and Curlin has run against and beaten THE BEST in the world in Dubai.  Unfortunately, Big Brown hasn't even gotten the chance to go overseas, but if you look at a Horse of the Year perspective, Curlin has a much better chance at receiving it (and with two wins in Dubai, a G1 win in the US, and a very good effort in a G1 on turf, and still with room for more great races) than does Big Brown (who has faced an only mediocre crop of three-year-olds, won four grade ones this year and never really receiving a good heart-testing performance - meaning he hasn't even been looked in the eye and really challenged, unlike to that of Curlin facing Rags to Riches in the thriller at the Belmont – even though he only lost with such a short margin and still managed to face his trials and tribulations later in the year).  The only question mark that is a gray area is that they haven't run on a synthetic surface.

The way it sounds where Big Brown is being pointed, the connections are steering away from the tougher competition in the Travers and going for a more softer spot, at least from it being this early before the Travers and the PA Derby.  He needs to be placed against the older crowd in order for the public to witness a colt that rounded back to his form that he had earlier in the year and still show the real class against a much more mature, experienced, and professional generation.  It'll be interesting to see if Big Brown is entered in the Mass Cap and whether he can catch the brilliant front runner in Commentator.  The only thing that will bother me is that the connections of Big Brown aren't facing or keeping an eye on where Curlin's connections are hinting whichever direction they seem to be leaning towards (a path in which I'm having trouble to decipher myself).  Curlin, if running on dirt, will most likely run in the Woodward and the Jockey Club Gold Cup (most likely winning those in style), and if the connections are still teasing with the idea with another run overseas, expect to see him be running in the Japan Cup Dirt (with a win, no doubt).  So that'll leave Curlin with three wins in two different continents (two of them group ones), a possible three grade one wins on dirt in North America, and a good placing in a grade one on grass.  That's an amazing resume for a Horse of the Year.  (And I'm neither a fan of both Big Brown and Curlin!  I just love watching them run when I can.)  Unfortunately, Big Brown was born a year later after Curlin, so that makes it a HUGE difference that the older one that has faced much more and done more possesses the eye-popping credentials to be Horse of the Year rather than the young grasshopper.  Another point, remember, just because you win the Kentucky Derby and/ or the Preakness, doesn't mean you WILL BE GUARENTEED to be Horse of the Year; case in point:  Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, Tiznow, Curlin, Azeri, Mineshaft, Invasor, Cigar...to name a few.    Of course, this is just my opinion from mere observation; I don't know the truth of the stories that goes on behind the scenes.

Coal Play, on the other hand, ran an outstanding performance in the race despite the fact that the winner beat him by an uncharacteristically small margin.  Of course, he would most definitely improve off of that effort and go for the PA Derby and possibly make a run at the Super Derby.  He could be a force to be reckoned with once he ages into the older ranks next year.

The question mark of the day is Atoned.  If anyone has any sure details to what happened, I would like to know.  I hope the horse is okay.

Maggie 03 Aug 2008 11:45 PM

One more comment: enough of the "he didn't beat anyone" or "this 3 yr old crop is weak".  You can't judge a crop of horses until the end of the year, and many horses come back from what appears to be mediocre 3 year old seasons to be very good 4 year olds (remember Lawyer Ron?).

Runfast159 03 Aug 2008 11:46 PM

I agree with you Jshandler.  Coal Play ran superbly against the Kentucky Derby and Preakness champion, yet he could just as easily slump the rest of his career, which will make the historians in later years believe that Big Brown wouldn't be placed in the top 10 of the past three-year-old champions from the first time year-end honors were bestowed to present day.  I would much rather him run against Harlem Rocker and other three-year-olds that he hasn't faced and developed late in the second half of the year to become very good competitors and could just as easily defeat Big Brown if they are that much on the improve.  Now, I'm not much of a Harlem Rocker fan, either, but Paula Higgins, you have to put that into perspective.  For example, Smarty Jones beat the likes of Borrego, Rock Hard Ten, Lion Heart...and they ran back and won grade one races.  Many other horses he beat ran well after the Triple Crown season.  So that will be seen as a very good quality crop of three-year-olds that Smarty Jones trounced in the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness and the many other times before those two.  Not very many people believe in the gernal rules of thumb in racing (1/5 of a second or .2 seconds equals to that of a length; or that if A beats B and B beats C, then A can and will beat C; or if a horse beats the others in the field and the others win/ lose afterwards, then the winner of the race is either flattered or considered not be that much of quality), but often times, those general rules are blatantly obvious and cannot be afforded to be ignored.

Maggie 03 Aug 2008 11:56 PM

I agree with what Chris McCarron said after the race.  He looked like a horse that hadn't run in 2 months, but with that said I still wonder if something is wrong with him.  He has run with 2 months off before and ran huge but today he labored at the end.  The fractions were legit but so were the ones in the Florida Derby and he ran HUGE in the stretch.   I too am not a fan of short works for horses thats running style is near the pace but the trainers today are not like the Whittinghams, Delps and Stephens. If I were the connections I would find a race in either late August or Early Septemeber and another in early October before going to the Breeders Cup.   I also would look for  soft spot for his next race.   If he struggles in that one then we know he is not right.

I hope we have the "real" Big Brown show up for the next race.

HomeOnTheRange 03 Aug 2008 11:57 PM

It would not have been the first time that a good horse was beaten in the Haskell by early speed that refused to stop; it's happened so many times at Monmouth that this track too should be called the Graveyard of Champions; but anytime that you can track a pace of 23, 46, 1:10, 35 and change and 48 and change, you had to be running, and running hard...I dont think that Big Brown's customary kick could be seen with that tempo, but he did have enough to beat the front-runner.  And it was a game performance by any standard.

Definitely not his best race (at least "visually"), but under the circumstances leading up to it, I think that the Dutrow camp would have a good reason to think that he can improve 5 lengths off of this win in his next start.

Suffolk and Philly are perfect spots for his next race.  I expect a much more convincing performance, and I think that he will stack up well (on paper) against any of the older horses, (save Curlin) in the Breeder's Classic.  And if he can't handle the synthetic track and gets beat, his stable has the perfect alibi as he gets carted off to the breeding shed...they actually don't have as much at risk in that final race as people might think....anything can happen on synthetic, and good horses are getting a mulligan on the surface...for now.

Phil 03 Aug 2008 11:59 PM

Runfast159, you are right that we shouldn't judge that he isn't good, but he isn't great, at least not yet.  Very many people are proclaiming him to be Horse of the Year already, but I'm skeptical about that.  Not after the seventh consecutive win of Zenyatta or the overseas and grass efforts of Curlin or the ever dangerous Commentator, or who knows?  Their might be a suprising star that we haven't seen or the media hasn't complety given appropriate attention to just yet.  What everyone should do instead of handing the year-end honors to the horses now, they should have a wait and see attitude and observe.  With some of the best competitors on dirt (Ginger Punch and possibly Curlin) steering clear away from synthetics, the year-end honors might cause a huge problem and an uproar once the voting commences and the results come in.

Maggie 04 Aug 2008 12:00 AM

I kept thinking, he needs the race, but he didn't look leg weary in deep stretch (when Coal Play did tire). What concerned me was how much effort it took Kent D. to get him moving. And, drifting out under a right-handed whip...they make a movie about this horse, they can call it Strange Days.

Tiznowbaby 04 Aug 2008 12:04 AM

He won. barely. not like he SHOULD have. look at the caliber of these horses! they are decent 3-year-olds, they are racing in a grade 1 race. but, like what people have said before, where was big brown?? he struggled at the top of the stretch, KD was ridin him hard at the top, he drifted like a green horse, lookin around, then beat coal play by 1 1/2 lengths.....he beat the top 3-yearolds in the country by what, 5 lengths in teh derby?! BB is not back....winning yes....but not the same BB i saw in the first 2 triple crown races.

I'm not a big fan of him, but i hoped the belmont had not affected him like it would many racehorses. i have now decided that KD did make a mistake that day in NY. Pulling him up, that's what. it left the horse emotionally effected, which with most smart horses like BB, it effects their running.

flyinhome 04 Aug 2008 12:11 AM

One thing is for sure, if Coal Play and Big Brown, with maybe a couple other 3-year-olds are the stand outs of this crop, after watchign this race, the talent may be quite even come the end of the racing year.

So I expect a lot of good races surrounding the Breeders' Cup. Whether the 3yos be deemed "lesser" or not. Good racing is still entertaining. =)

aspradling 04 Aug 2008 12:18 AM

Johanna: i would have to disagree with you on finishing strongly..he was working it pretty hard to beat coal play. watch the replay....also, stop talking about the Florida derby.....this IS NOT the race.

Rick: a two-month layoff is a sorrid excuse....the best horses can usually blow it out of the park. Red giant anyone? 10 months. he FLEW down that stretch...Lawyer Ron, he had a 5 month lay-off after his derby because of chips in his knees. he had his best season after that and crushed the feild coming back off the layoff.

flyinhome 04 Aug 2008 12:27 AM

I think he came around the turn into the stretch and remembered being pulled up.  When Kent made it clear that he was supposed to run on, BB picked it up and did what he needed to be.  Hopefully next time he will believe he is there to run the whole race  Did you watch what he was like when Kent tried to pull him up?  He fought him for a quarter mile- looked like he had a lot of run left in him after the finish line.

Crib Glas 04 Aug 2008 1:00 AM

If voting held today:

Horse of the Year:  Curlin  (Dubai, Stephen Foster, Manhattan placing)

Champion 3 year old:  Big Brown

I think 3 weeks for the Travers would actually be better for Big Brown off of today's race.  He could work 2 or 3 more times and get the "canoe."  

Ironically, by waiting the extra week and going to the PA Derby, we have a similar situation to Spend A Buck in 1985.  Although Big Brown is not skipping the rest of the Triple Crown his owners would be going for the money versus the prestige.

Big Brown handled the Preakness just fine after the Derby and I think the Travers would be in his wheelhouse.  It also provides better spacing for the Classic.

Also, Spend A Buck "only" won the Derby, the Jersey Derby and the Monmouth Handicap in his 3 year old year was horse of the year and champion 3 year old.

That being said, Big Brown good as he is would have to win out (Travers and Classic) to upend Curlin in Horse of the Year honors unless Curlin does nothing else for this year.  

Donovan Colt Torp 04 Aug 2008 1:14 AM

Frankly, I don't care what anyone says about Big Brown, his trainer, or his connections (I believe I heard his owner indicate much or all of the purse was being donated to a policeman's family and a horse rescue facility-shows me he is a real class act), BB is a great horse and a class act.  I am a horse owner, and I wonder if BB has some type of problem on his left side-maybe he has a problem with his foot again.  Whatever the problem, Brown was first because he is a true talent who has the heart to overcome adversity.  Lets not attack anyone connected with Big Brown or Big Brown.  If Big Brown was my horse, I would end his career on a good note.  He won the Haskell and now would be a good time to retire him and allow him to be a horse.  Great Job BB!

Doz 04 Aug 2008 2:19 AM

I have always read these posts and have never cared to write anything myself, but I am so tired of all the negativity displayed by these pompous airbags whenever it comes to anything concerning this horse.  He won, and no, he didn't win handily, but he won by putting in a really gutsy determined effort, and by doing so, he not only won but proved he deserved to win.  All these people can do is go on and on and on about how he can't be compared to Secretariat or Curlin or blah, blah, blah.  Well, who's trying to compare him but they themselves?  It's the same old story every time - enough already!  The horse ran well, look at the replays - he tracked Coal Play and overtook him in the stretch.  I swear, if the horse had won by twenty lengths they would still be saying it was a fluke because we have a weak group of three year olds this year, the race at this track or that does not supply the right kind of competition, his pedigree is not right - whatever.  No matter what Brown does, it's never enough, because I have a sneaking suspicion that these folks just don't want the horse to win anyway, for whatever petty reason.  And while we're at it, cut the connections some slack - maybe you don't like them, but really, could you do as well? You may not like them, but they are winning, they're the first to take a stand to try to clean up steroid use, they're building a state of the art equine facility, they're donating portions of their winnings to good causes such as ReRun - come on, people, just lighten it up a little!  Can't you just enjoy the sport for the beauty of these majestic animals flying on the wind instead of always having to tear each and every performance to shreds?  

Brownfan 04 Aug 2008 3:02 AM

The connections of Big Brown are satisfied that he won the Haskell and can add another grade 1 to his resume.However,he is not the same horse that he was in his first five races. He was all out to beat a small field of secound tier three year olds.

MikeM 04 Aug 2008 6:14 AM

Yes, BB did win The Haskell.  Did anyone notice the " strain / anguished " look on BB's face as Desormeux pushed him to the finish line ? He is NOT the same horse that ran in theTriple Crown. He looked so washed out as he came past Coal Play , as if any energy he had , was gone.  What  " should of  / could of  "  been a great horse was diminished , in my opinion , during the Triple Crown. Something happened to that horse and only those around BB know for sure.

The Haskell win was a redeeming race for Kent Desormeux , give him the credit for BB's win. There will be other horse's to ride in the future. As for BB, his future is the breeding shed. I just can't see him running against the competition that will be in The Breeder's Cup , based on his performance in The Haskell.   Perhaps they should consider shorter races for any of BB's future races. Maybe the time is now to retire BB , go out with a win under his belt and halt any further speculation.

UCLinden 04 Aug 2008 7:07 AM

My first thought after the race was 'What if Kent had gotten after Big Brown like that in the Belmont, rather than pull him up?'  At any rate, Big Brown managed to eke out a win vs a horse who finished third in an optional claimer last out.  I also wonder if some of us are watching the same race.  Coal Play may have gotten a good start, but Big Brown fired out of the gate, only to once again have the brakes put on-and not very smoothly-by his rider.

Someone said lay him off til mid '09-Big Brown will retire at the end of the year, his owners have said so from the get go.

This crop is slow, everyone has acknowledged that all year.  Seems the Big Brown of earlier this year has been caught by his peers, which happens in this sport.

This is not a GREAT horse.  That moniker gets handed out far too quickly these days.

deb 04 Aug 2008 7:21 AM

Yawn,

The Big Ole Browneye struggles to put away another group of unproven animals.

Brownie just hasn't faced much in the way of competition and peaked way before they did. On the bright side at least the other 3 yr. olds are catching up to him as he spins his wheels. Too bad his connections continue to race him against horses struggling to come into their own and choose to duck seasoned veterans.

If there had been any decent competition in this race he would have now been riding a 2 race losing streak. Kudos to the connections for having the foresight to know that to get back on the win track they had to keep him facing nothing. This may be the luckiest horse in history as he continues to pile up GR1 wins without having to face quality competition.

draynot 04 Aug 2008 7:50 AM

I am happy that Big Brown win this race!

He ran to win the race, and it is in good effort. Let see him ran again in Travers Stakes and then judged him if he is the Big Brown we used to know!

Cheers for Big Brown!!!!

Windblown 04 Aug 2008 7:52 AM

Showed me BB has some fight and that the late maturing 3 year-olds have a shot at him.

Rachel

da3hoss 04 Aug 2008 7:57 AM

Horses are not machines.Like humans they have their good days and their off days.Those "experts and fans" who deride any horse for an off day performance should be kinder with their comments.

mike williams 04 Aug 2008 8:39 AM

Big Brown is a wonderful horse, and he has been a pleasure to watch, but he is no Curlin.

If you look at him after the race he was a tired boy and came down the stretch like a classy, short horse.

As far as him drifting down the lane, that is not a terrible problem, but with the amount of times he has raced, he should be over that habit.

Getting out in the turn is a different story. There is a reason for that, and it is usually a left side problem. I hope it is nothing, and he can train on and face the big boys.

I agree with some of the others, this crop is not that great. They are running races and someone has to win, but that does not make them special, except to their owners. Maybe they will manage to step up.

Sherrie 04 Aug 2008 9:19 AM

If you look at the last 20 years, the Haskell has been a difficult race for any 3YO coming off the Triple Crown trail.  Horses like Point Given, Spenda A Buck, Funny Cide and Curlin all have run dull races in the Haskell.  If he moves forward, the race was a perfect set up.  Just like Curlin, he was asked to do a whole lot in a short amount of time and he make still be recovering.  To me, when he kicked in and changed leads, he was explosive, especially since Zito's colt wasn't stopping.

Gene 04 Aug 2008 9:23 AM

Big Brown Won, That's all that matters,why does he have to blow horses away all the time?I do agree with someones comment about his health,They should scan him,and do whatever is necessary to make sure he is ok,health wise.

Look at lost in the fog!,ran he butt off,then boom,he starts losing and losing,comes to find out he's ill.But,I do think BB was just getting started at the end.He has nothing to prove in my eyes.

ruffian518 04 Aug 2008 9:34 AM

Others have stated their views well as to Big Brown overcoming the layoff and the effects of his last race.  However, did anyone watch the race on TVG.  One of the funniest calls in memory.  A sort of a Gilda Radner character calling, "Coal Play is on his way to a huge upset, er, oops, no he's not".  It was not a Trevor Denman moment.  He would have seen the changing of leads and the momentum building.  But, a great race by Joe Bravo and Coal Play on the lead.

berttheclock 04 Aug 2008 9:45 AM

Well he won and banked $600,000 plus whatever he received as an up-front appearance fee. Win ugly or win pretty, he got the job done.

Isn't that what he was supposed to do in the first place?

Alex 04 Aug 2008 9:48 AM

With that gutty win in the Haskell, it's worth reexamining the Belmont and what he might have been able to do if Kent had urged him in the stretch instead of pulling him up.  

Melissa G 04 Aug 2008 9:57 AM

I think Big Brown needed the race...but I sure expected a better race visually.  He was all out to beat a 22-1 shot?  

And, I still can't say I like the way Kent rides this horse!  When is it ever okay to let the horse drift out like that?  What if there had been another horse coming up on the outside, and he drifted out and interfered only to have BB taken down in a $1 million race!?!?  C'mon, Kent!  Doesn't it indicate something brewing physically when a horse drifts out like that?  I just don't know.

You cannot judge a horse fully until the end of his career.  I think they're crazy to retire him at 3 now that he is NOT a TC winner.  What will be saying at the end of the year about BB?  Probably exactly what we're saying after the Haskell.  There's no way he can beat Curlin in the BC Classic.  No way at all.  Maybe if he starts running now (and Kent gets his head out of his hind end and actually rides him well)...

So now BB has the same accomplishments as War Emblem!?  HA.  Bet Iavarone loves that! Three Chimneys should be getting nervous.

I will finish by saying he ain't no Silver Charm.  Nor even Point Given!

Kelly E. 04 Aug 2008 10:01 AM

It was better than Smarty Jones return.

derbyme 04 Aug 2008 10:01 AM

If Big Brown has been trained properly and given a good bottom, there is absolutely no reason why he could not be run back in three weeks.  This is the debate about the loss of thoroughbred stamina.  Race him!  That could be the best thing in the world is to put him back out in another race.  So what if he loses, if he goes out with class, fine.  Run him again!  Curlin's connections have a much more well thought out goal for their horse.  I hope they continue with the turf program as his finish was fine for a first time out--against a grade one turf winner at that.

dianne 04 Aug 2008 10:07 AM

Yes, Runfast159, mediocre 3-year-olds can develop into monsters at four, but in Big Brown's case, we aren't likely to find out unless he continues to throw in Haskells for the rest of the year.  Then, they may be forced to keep him in training to try to salvage his falling star.  Personally, I hope they do.  He's not a real stallion prospect to me until he's shown how he matures as a racehorse, and so far, if he was accurately priced, I still wouldn't be getting out my checkbook just yet.  

I want an Older Horse division that isn't populated soley with geldings and imports from Europe.  Lawyer Ron was a great example of a horse getting sooooo much better with age!

LittleGuyBreeder 04 Aug 2008 10:07 AM

Big Brown was defitely giving it his all in the stretch, I wanted him to pull it off for his sake and not his connections. I also think he could be a better horse if he had a trainer like Zito. Big Brown Three Year Old Champion, Curlin Horse of The Year.

DONNA 04 Aug 2008 10:11 AM

I’m amazed how so many people continue to down play the talent of Big Brown especially in comparison to Curlin.  Now I love Curlin however he did loose 2/3 triple crown races one of them to a filly. Came back in the Haskell after a long layoff like Big Brown only to finish 3rd where the race was won by Any Given Saturday in 1:48.35.  This year Curlin won a big race in Dubai against what I believe was an average field.  Curlin than followed that up with a second place finish in the Man O'War Stakes.  I think racing fans can't get pass the connection of Big Brown and because of it get blinded when comparing these two great horse (Curlin/Brownie).  The bottom line is that Big Brown has only lost once in his career, the Haskell was more impressive than we are giving him credit winning after a long layoff and this will serve only to tighten the horse even more come this fall.  This is why I'm going to stick my neck out and say that he will win the Breeders Cup Classic and the Curlin connection understanding the true talents of Big Brown will skip the race and not enter in the Classic.  So racing fans be prepared for some elaborate excuse from the "Curlin Camp" like ankle twist, fever etc.  I think we need to keep our eyes on this developing story and understand that Curlin will end his career before the Classic and we should see it for what it will be...."DUCKING BIG BROWN"!

Pat 04 Aug 2008 10:12 AM

OK Runfast, I won't use "weak crop of three year olds" or "he didn't beat anyone." How about instead of a "weak crop" we insert it's the worst crop of three year old, to date, in a long, long time, and he has beat a bunch of nondescript and undistinguished three year olds. If your waiting for this generation to step up and be anything other than mediocre your going to have a heck of a wait. You refer to "Lawyer Ron" as an example of a horse that turned into a very good four year old but fail to mention he had alredy shown he was a very nice three year old before a series of setbacks. But you don't mention one horse when judging a crop of horses. The only members of this bunch to show any promise, other than BB, have been on synthetic tracks and maybe they will prove to be nice horses on plastic, but on dirt the term mediocre would be a compliment.

If you want people to stop knocking something - how about stop knocking Dutrow and Desormeaux. Both deserve a great deal more respect than those bloggers who by their inane comments only show they are uneducated in the horseracing game. Let's see - a trainer that is annually amongst the top in his profession with two Dubai World Champions to his credit this year (where by the way they do not race on any steroids), and a jockey who is in the top 10 alltime money earners and just past a milestone of 5,000 winners.

In conclusion, "What did we learn from Big Brown's Haskell?" We should have learned that Big Brown is a very nice horse and the best of his crop. You can't knock the horse for who he has to run against in his division. Is he - as the media and part time racing fans that seem to garner exceptional horseracing knowledge during the Triple Crown Series then disappear til next year - a great horse - no. And the term "great" should be reserved for the very, very few that deserve it.      

mg 04 Aug 2008 10:46 AM

How many times has a strong Triple Crown horse come up a little weak in the Haskell? Heck, we just saw Curlin throw somewhat of a stinker in the same race last year. And we know how that turned out.

I think we'll know the deal with Big Brown soon enough...he's going to have a prep and then the Classic...if he wins both, the questions are answered. Based on the Haskell, you have to credit the horse for winning and wait to see if he'll round back into form.

Big Brown is a lot like Curlin, if not as talented, in that he jumped way up in class very soon and is running a lot of races for being (basically) unraced as a 2 year old.

Sean 04 Aug 2008 10:50 AM

Also remember that Big Brown was juiced for the Derby & Preakness.  By the Blemont & now was/is off the steroids.  We are now seeing the clean BB run.  I think he needs another race or 2 before Breeder's Cup, as long as he come out of this race in good shape.  If he has a problem (feet again?) I hope he is able to get one more race in before Breeder's Cup.

Carolyn 04 Aug 2008 10:56 AM

I think BB was confused.  When he raced in the Belmont, his human passenger pulled him up hard--saying, in effect, 'Don't run!'  On Sunday, BB looked as if he was waiting to be pulled up again, but no!  'Oh, you want me to run, today,' BB thinks!  'OK, here I go.'  Folks say horses are creatures of habit--now maybe BB realizes he's supposed to run all the way!  I hope so--he's a beautiful guy.

bigdoc 04 Aug 2008 10:59 AM

Runfast,

Waiting until the end of the year to judge Big Brown based on who he ran against doesn't show the true picture. These are 3 yr olds we are talking about and alot of them are still on the improve. I judge a horse based on who he runs against and where they were at that point in their development. If one horse beats another then the beaten horse improves dramatically later it doesn't make the winner better. He only beat that particular horse when it hadn't reached its full potential. It diminishes the win.

Make no mistake to this point the 3 yr old class is anything but great. They are beginning to improve but when Big Brown faced them they either weren't that good (as most have shown) or hadn't reached peak yet (as in the case of Coal Play).

I don't qulify the Haskell as a race Big Brown proved his gutsiness either. To pass a horse in the lane who is obviously struggling isn't what I would want to see to prove that. If he had raced eyeball to eyeball down the stretch while neither were tiring that would show something. He simply ran into another 3 yr old who ran a tough race but was tiring, is not at the top of his game yet, and needed more seasoning. This bodes well for Coal Play's future but not neccesarily Big Browns and it goes to show that horses like Cool Coal Man weren't that good to begin with when Brownie faced them before. If Coal Play continues improving and wins out for the year it wouldn't change the fact that when Brownie faced him he was short of his best.

Big Brown reached his peak well before the rest of his class did. This class may end up proving they sre stronger than they appear but Brownie won't have the resume to show he beat them when they were.

the wiz 04 Aug 2008 11:17 AM

BB's Haskell was a gutsy win and he had to belly down to do it. That's good to see but drifting out in the stretch is not good to see. The jock was repetedly hitting him right handed down the lane(equibase chart).The two month layoff is a no factor,Red Giant won off a 10 month layoff. It would be nice to see him hook older horses next start that would make sense to me as this time of year 3 year olds can and should hook older horses. Running him back against 3 year olds will prove nothing.

Wanda 04 Aug 2008 11:18 AM

no rocket fuel no rocket.

i saw race 04 Aug 2008 11:26 AM

Brownfan: I agree with you 100%. BB can't do anything right for some people. Like Draynot. BB can set solid fractions, come off of a 2 month layoff after a disaster at Belmot (caused by his jock) and then show heart and determination against a horse that broke like a bullet and he still doesn't get the respect he deserves. BB has been a thrill this season and this win was not only needed but deserved. He is talented and that can't be denied.

FlyinHome: Im glad you agree that Kent made a huge mistake by pulling him up in the Belmont. Kent didn't ask BB to get on his belly in the Belmont. Instead he pulled him up confusing him. Im sure BB has some significant emotional issues he needs to over come because of that. Horses are smart. They don't forget.

Karen2 04 Aug 2008 11:26 AM

There was nothing close to Hard Spun or Any Given Saturday in the Haskell.In regards to the quality of this years 3yr olds,dont tell me what they might be tell me what they are now.

Mikem 04 Aug 2008 11:40 AM

What race? I have reservations about his fitness and I think he exuded what class he had to pull that off, but he isn't his old self and I don't think(although I would be glad to see it) he will be able to return to his previous form. I think that a trainer change might help alot!  I don't see IEAH pushing the horse and (I am not a fan) but quit blaming Kent for the horses poor performance!  I can only forsee Curlin wiping up the track with big brown @ oak tree for the Breeder's Cup.  He was obviously short and if he doesn't get some real training there isn't much chance of him beating a good field of horses anytime soon.  I don't know what state his hoof is in but after some rest it should be better and I think there is something else amiss with Big Brown.  

jmewill 04 Aug 2008 11:44 AM

I agree with bigdoc completely. He did look like he was expecting to get pulled up as he was going around that last turn. it looked like it wasn't until they got past it and on the stretch that he figured it was o.k. to run. The more I've seen Kent Desormeaux on him, the more i would like to see a different rider. He manhandled Big Brown from start to finish in the Belmont and he jerked him up hard after the finish line on the Haskell. They are not working as a team and the jockey has little rapport with the horse.

Karen in Indiana 04 Aug 2008 11:58 AM

I say give Zito credit for having Coal Play ready to run. Absent BB showing he also has some true grit in his make-up, Zito would have added yet another notch to his "knock the king off his throne" belt.

BB still strikes as a horse suffering from a dubious training regime, this regime perhaps being driven by those chronic poor feet he apparently inherited from his Dad, Boundary.

At least Rick found the time to blow BB out for three furlongs before the race. If only he had done that before the Belmont.

BB's place in history  thus far from being established. The racings gods willing, the next two starts will settle that, maybe.

Bryce Be Quick 04 Aug 2008 12:13 PM

Big Brown in essence beat 6 allowance horses Sunday. The best of this weak crop of 3 yr olds is up here in Saratoga right now.

Anyone who thinks Big Brown can beat Curlin are closing their eyes to the facts. One only has to compare their past performances including the Beyer Speed Ratings, times of the races, and the quality of competition to see the writing on the wall. IF they ever race each other, which still appears doubtful, Curlin wins by 6+ lengths. And remember this fact... history has proved that much  more often than not, the good four year old will beat the good three year old. It's like an adult running against a teenager.

Saratoga AJ 04 Aug 2008 12:20 PM

After the Haskell, I'm more certain than ever that the things hurting Big Brown the most are his trainer and his jock. IEAH needs to search the phone books for another trainer, and what is going on between Dutrow and Desormeaux, anyway?? I think it was Randy Moss who called this bunch a "dysfunctional family" yesterday. I think this is far worse than a dysfunctional family, and the one paying the price is the horse. SHEESH, guys...PLEASE, for one second, think of the horse and get over yourselves!

While I'll always have problems with Dutrow, I really don't have any with Mr Desormeaux......unless he's riding this particular horse...but then, didn't he say (BEFORE the Belmont) that he wanted to "redeem" himself for his ride on Real Quiet in the same race? Then, when he eases BB, dismounts and says "there's nothing wrong with the horse"....what ARE we supposed to think?????????? Maybe I DO have problems with Mr Desormeaux, after all.

Curiouser and curiouser.............

needler in Virginia 04 Aug 2008 12:26 PM

I watched race via you tube. Yes, it wasn't "explosive" but he was off a 8 week layoff. So he wasn't as sharp but he turned it on, dug down and won. Imagine how much better he could have won if he was race sharp? You cannot expect a horse to win a race as convicingly as BB did in the KD and PS every time they go to the starting gate.He should have won and he did. Just because it wasn't a cake walk doesn't take away the fact that he won.

susanne 04 Aug 2008 1:05 PM

I TOTALLY AGREE W/MIKE WILLIAMS AND KAREN. SO MANY INDIVIDUALS HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE REGARDING RACING. YET,THEY ATTEMPT TO COME OFF AS "EXPERTS". M. WILLIAMS IS CORRECT,PEOPLE SHOULD STOP PLACING UNNECESSARY ON THE RACE HORSE IF THEY HAVE AN OFF DAY. THESE ARE ANIMALS,NOT MACHINES! ALSO,I'VE SAID THE SAME THING! I ADMIT THAT I THOUGHT BB WOULD WIN BY A HUGE MARGIN,BUT HE DID SOMETHING THAT HE WAS NEVER ASKED OF HIM EVER,TO "DIG DOWN". THAT ILLUSTRATES WHAT SEPARATES A GREAT HORSE FROM A GOOD ONE. BB WON EVEN IF HE WASN'T AT HIS BEST. RACING FANS,LIKE MYSELF HAVE BEEN SPOILED BY HIS IMPRESSIVE WINS PRIOR TO THE BELMONT.

MIKE RELVA 04 Aug 2008 1:33 PM

I find it funny how after two ugly races people are now saying Kent and Big Brown don't work together.  They didn't seem to have any problems when BB was crushing his peers.

Jockeys can cause their horse to lose a race, but the horse still plays the biggest part of the pair.  BB was not the same horse on Sunday that he was earlier in the year.  All the fault can't lay at Kent's feet.

Pollas 04 Aug 2008 1:33 PM

He needed the race.  Throw out the Belmont and it's his first race back since May.  He'll be sharper next time out for sure.

dave 04 Aug 2008 1:37 PM

Who won the Haskell last year and where is he now? I watched the race, bet on the winner and I had to look it up to remember. I'm young, of clear mind right now (I'm the guy with the broken leg)and I couldn't remember. I think BB's owners need a change up or retire the colt. Kent's big sell of the horse to Jill Byrne made me change my opinion of him, again. He's bordering on the obnoxious guy he was after the Real Quiet years when no one would touch him. Something isn't right with this colt. Foot, meds, needs Edgar, new trainer not sure what. I talked to two of the top trainers in the country and they said, one pull up isn't a learned behavior otherwise why do horses seem to come back and win after pull ups and van offs not related to injury, saw a couple last week. Others have won convincingly after longer layoffs, IEAH chose this race, he could have gone in something sooner. Kent had to get after BB in a big way to win that race. Not to be an alarmist but still say he just doesn't seem right.

JordanA 04 Aug 2008 1:41 PM

Several above have said ease off the connections. They make it hard. Here is Dutrow in the Philadelphia Daily News: "Curlin couldn't win the Derby, we could," Dutrow said. "Curlin couldn't win this race, we could. Curlin got beat [by] a filly. We haven't. Our horse is undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."

Is he serious? Curlin faced Street Sense and Hard Spun. Curlin finished the Belmont. Brownie's grass win was against maidens, Curlin's second was in a grade I. Why does he says stupid stuff like this? Why can't he let Brown's accomplishments stand on their own?

Tiznowbaby 04 Aug 2008 1:44 PM

Big Brown winning was good for the sport.  So many little kids at Monmouth yesterday just fixated and rooting on a horse named Big Brown.  It was a game effort and had he lost, I feel alot of people would be sad as his career ended.  

Look for him to run huge til the BC then finish poorly in the BC!

mikeD 04 Aug 2008 1:49 PM

I see a horse who beat another group of 3 yr olds who had proven little or nothing coming in.

Coal Play looks like he may have a future but judging by the way he tired in the stretch he isn't there quite yet. Between facing below par competition and facing any that appear to have a future before they blossom Big Brown is racing under a lucky star.

In the Belmont it was Big Brown who caused his own problems breaking into one causing the shoe issue and racing up the heels into the first turn of another almost causing a disaster. He was totally unmanageable and ill prepared for 1 1/2 miles. Some people like Karen2 can't see it for what it was. Go ahead and blame the jockey if it makes you feel better. As for the horse being "confused" and starting to falter because of that in the far turn you got to be kidding. He's been trained before and since he was pulled up in the Belmont to acclerate around the turn and into the stretch. If horses are as smart as you think he would remember all of this training.

Kudos to Kent D. for not letting him quit Saturday even after he had gave up so easily in NY.

Let's go to the Pennsylvania Derby with him now so he can continue to meet weak and unseasoned competition. That'll prove it to all them nay-sayers!! LOL!!

schabelli 04 Aug 2008 1:50 PM

As I reflect more upon BB's action in the Haskell stretch, I'm wondering if his connections would consider a return to the surface he first mastered-grass.  There's no shame in winning the BC turf (Manila, anyone?).  I know these potential stallions are monitored closely, but I'm also thinking of Point Given's Haskell struggle after his Belmont romp.  He made it through one more race, the Travers.  (How many weeks between the Haskell-Travers in 2001?)  What's wrong with a turf experienced BB closing out his career on maybe more foot friendly grass?

joe 04 Aug 2008 1:58 PM

Whew! That was not a pretty win, and it wasn't an easy win, but it was a win. I give BIG BROWN the credit he deserves for winning, but I thought he was a defeated horse at the top of the stretch. He got the win, though, and he deserves praise for that. Sorry everyone - Frank Lyons included - he's not "one of the best of all time." In fact, he's not even close. He is, however, quite a good horse.

Mike S 04 Aug 2008 2:00 PM

We learned that Rick Dutrow's manners haven't improved any and probably never will. During the pre-race and after-race interviews, he was his usual surly, bad tempered self. If racing is looking to improve it's image, Dutrow is setting it back. He doesn't have to be Mary Sunshine, but you'd think he could try to answer questions in a civil manner. He should know that people are interested in Big Brown and that questions will be asked. As for the race, I wasn't impressed at all with Big Brown. He runs as if he has a physical problem of some sort now. Obviously he had talent, but now he seems hesitant, like something is off. Too many owners are only in racing for the big bucks and don't seem to care for their horses. I don't know if BB's owners fall into this category or not, but I hope they give the horse a thorough going over. If he's hurting, he shouldn't be racing.

smarie 04 Aug 2008 2:26 PM

I am not a Big Brown fan and I was very impressed with his effort on Sunday. Everyone is saying he didnt show the same accelaration he did in the Florida Derby and Kentucky Derby. Those were what,..his 2nd and 3rd starts of the year.....this was what his 6th. He was obviously a fresher horse then than now. He is coming off of a triple crown run which we have seen effect horses and make them never race again. He is coming off getting pulled up in his last race and a 2 month layoff and having to overcome the poor training job of his trainer. He know doubt was short and won this race off of heart and talent alone. Lets not forget that he was the one chasing the splits of Coal Play the whole way around and Coal Play couldnt even maintain it yet Brown dug in and got the job done. This race will serve him well and he will no doubt be much better in the next one and for the rest of the year.

Bunksie1581 04 Aug 2008 2:35 PM

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the difference we see in BB pre-Belmont and now is the absense of Winstrol in his training regime?

He isn't carrying the "blossom" he did before he went steroid free... Something to think about.

fasthorses 04 Aug 2008 2:39 PM

what i like about this race is that it leaves something to improve on. it also shows his heart. it appeared that big brown wasn't accelerating as much but him and coal play were both widening away from cool coal man, coal play ran the best race he's ever run. and big brown showed the courage my running down coal play.

and big browns jockey said he was accelerating just like the old big brown and he also said big brown is back to this KD form and since those words came from the jockey himself and he was the only one on that horse that race his words are the most accurate

michelle 04 Aug 2008 2:46 PM

Congratulations to all the connections of BIG Brown on winning the Haskell.

Im in racing over 50 years and they only time i have ever seen a horse pulled up in a circle out of a gallop was an inexperienced child pulling up a pony at the HUNT. This is one way of breaking down a good horse!!!!!!!!!!  

chris 04 Aug 2008 3:36 PM

Does anyone trust BB trainer? The guy talks way too much trash and his record is less than stellar. No telling what BB may have raced with in the passed...  I give credit to the horse.  He is an amazing animal and should be with a quality trainer!

Lucky Lucy 04 Aug 2008 3:38 PM

Since Big Brown is so wonderful in the morning and not so wonderful in the afternoon, I think that he suffers of heavy worm infestation. Instead of testosterone, Dutrow should give him anti-helminthics

renatobear 04 Aug 2008 3:41 PM

"Pat 10:12AM" said: "This year Curlin won a big race in Dubai against what I believe was an average field.  Curlin than followed that up with a second place finish in the Man O'War Stakes."

why did you leave out the Grade 1 Foster at Churchill Downs in between those starts? in any event, since you brought up "ducking", I remember a pre-Belmont quote from the Big Brown camp that went something like "Curlin knows where to find us".  since that statement, BB has run in the Belmont & Haskell, two races that Curlin isn't eligible for.  No doubt they will go to Philly or Louisiana next for another race that Curlin isn't allowed to "find them".

Weatherbird 04 Aug 2008 4:17 PM

I watched the race live and also the replays several times, and agree with most of your comments.  It is Big Brown's effortless initial wins, at 12 lengths, or more, or coming from post 20 in the KY Derby, or the 12 spot in the Preakness and his dominating wins that made us think of him as "Superhorse" that has changed the dynamic.  In the Haskell, Zito again tried to take a speed-type horse, to go wire to wire to push Big Brown to his limits and defeat him as he did in the Belmont.  Well, I think Desormeaux realized what was unfolding, so he sat off Coal Play's hip and eventually he and Big Brown wore him down.  As stated, the splits were fast, and they partially took their toll, but Big Brown showed a lot of heart, grit and determination to win.  I think the expectations outweigh the individual.  No, realistically, Big Brown is not another coming of Ruffian, Seattle Slew, Secretariat, Dr. Fager or Buckpasser, but hey, give him a break, he's an awesome horse, with awesome accomplishments - The Florida Derby, the KY Derby, the Preakness, and now, the Haskell.  There are currently several other good horses that can't compare, so let's not belittle or doubt his accomplishments nor his ability, and give him his due.  No he's not Superhorse, but as a racing fan, I love him just the same.  The sport needs its heros, and I think he's quite a credible one.  He's only lost one race, and yes, it was unexpected and was done in a strange manner, but I was at Belmont Park that day, I don't think it is quite that strange.  The excessive heat, his blow-up in the detention barn, the depth of the track due to lack of water to keep it firmer, his bumping at the start, and partial loss of a shoe, his quarter crack, though insignificant, per se, certainly affected his training schedule - damn, he only lost one race in seven, so let's not beat up on him, and try to over-analyze what occurred.  Surely, the outspoken over confidence of Dutrow didn't help the horse's case either, but let's not blame Big Brown for his trainer's braggadocio.  Just after the Haskell the ESPN crew immediately started to analyze, not why Big Brown didn't win, if that would have been the case, but 'oh, he didn't win in Big Brown style, or maybe he's not quite as good as we thought he was.'  To me, he stalked the speed and gutted it out to win by 1 3/4, not bad, but good, in my opinion.  Would I rather have seen him win by 10, surely, but I'm not going to knock him for winning by 1 3/4, and doing in gritty, Big Heart-fashion.  If one wants to question, let's ask Todd Pletcher what happen to Atoned?  And also ask Todd Pletcher, who I have considerable admiration and respect for, if he'd rather be training Atoned or Big Brown?

Ed Kane 04 Aug 2008 4:27 PM

After watching Big Brown's Haskell performance I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Desormeaux had not quit riding him in the Belmont.  That is one long stretch drive and Big Brown was not ridden from before midway through the turn.  He demonstrated yesterday that even without a rapid turn of foot he was still willing to grind out a win.

Truly Splendid 04 Aug 2008 4:50 PM

You cannot train heart or true grit - AND that is what makes Big Brown more of a champion now than the Derby and Preakness ever did. He grew up in the Haskell. Winning isn't always easy and rare talent is only part of the equation. Cheers, Big guy, you've graduated and we're very proud of you. Roll on, you deserve your shot at the Big Red boy.

Ivytree123 04 Aug 2008 5:26 PM

Also...very interesting reading everyone's comments - some very astute and horse friendly people on here, others...well. I will say, I agree, the horse is intellgent and did likely get confused, if he was truly OK, then he should have been allowed to run his race in the Belmont. His condition may not be at the

peak but I sense he would have hit the board and third in the Belmont is nothing to be ashamed of, really. However, I have to disagree with some of the comments as to his demeanor at the end of the Haskell...Coal Play was not completely beaten - he was still going on fairly well and as to Big Brown, he was tossing his head and running on as KD was TRYING TO pull him up galloping out. HE DID FIGURE OUT HOW TO RUN AGAIN AND was difficult to slow down at first - truly, I think he was confused by his rider in the Belmont and Lord knows, they are sensitive, he's really still a teenager and teenagers are affected by their environment, especially when their families argue. Don't think for a moment this horse doesn't sense something is up with some of these connections. Stay out of his way, don't send him mixed signals and ask him for his best - whatever that is, I assure you, he will give it...and that's all we can ask for. Go Big Brown.

ivytree123 04 Aug 2008 5:35 PM

I will never be convinced that Big Brown lost the Belmont....it was human error and a dislodged shoe! Big Brown won the Haskell!! Whether by a nose or 10 lengths, he won. Any other horse that would have won by 1 3/4 lengths, would be considered remarkable. Look at the drive and heart he had at the end. He would not give up! As far as the Belmont; if Edgar Prado was on board, he would have won. There was nothing wrong with the horse after the Belmont, what does that tell you? Congrats to Brownie,with all the races you ran this year, I knew you had it in you to come back and win, despite the obstacles you faced in the Belmont. In your races you showed unbelievable speed, tremendous heart and a desire to get the job done. I am proud to be a Big Brown fan!!

Loretta T. 04 Aug 2008 5:38 PM

This was a very workmanlike performance from a horse the sporting public has been accustomed to seeing as brilliant prior to his debacle in the Belmont Stakes. He is not the same dominant individual he was in the early spring. Is it his foot? The lack of steroids? A lack of condition after a long layoff? I think it may be a combination of these things. I hope he runs again, but I am of the belief that his connections will digest this for a long time before deciding what to do next. I think it will be determined by the announcement tomorrow of where Curlin is going next, as I can just bet, where Curlin goes, Big Brown will not. The way he ran yesterday, laboring to get by a non-stakes winner running the race of his life does not bode well for Big Brown against real top class competition. My own opinion is that we have seen the last of him, and that he will go out on this winning note, even though he he had to labor long and hard to get it.

Janesville Liz 04 Aug 2008 6:13 PM

The most creditable way of comparing horses who haven't raced each other is by comparing speed figures.  Early reports are that BB will get a 106 Beyer, or thereabouts, for the Haskell.

So his best races are a 109, 106, 106, & 106.  That's above average for a 3 YO but nothing to get excited about.  Funny Cide had run a 109, 110 and 114 by this time.  He turned out to be a solid 3 YO with two Classic wins.  But no one talks about him as though he was a "freak".  Because he wasn't.

There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to suggest that BB is any better than Funny Cide was.

If he beats Curlin and runs something in the 118+ range, we can start the conversation.  Otherwise, fuhgedaboutit.

RY999 04 Aug 2008 6:15 PM

EVEN THE BEST HORSES CAN BE BEAT ON ANY GIVEN DAY. Y'ALL CURLIN WORSHIPERS KNOW THAT RIGHT?  REMEMBER LAST YEARS PREAKNESS, A HEAD IN FRONT. BIG DEAL. THEN THE BELMONT, PSST, HE GOT BEAT BY A GIRL. THEN GOT BEAT BY ANY GIVEN SATURDAY, A HORSE WHO'S PERFORMANCES WERE MEDIOCRE AT BEST IN LAST YEARS HASKELL. AND JUST WHO DID CURLIN BEAT IN DUBAI?  AS FOR HORSE WITH HEART, ID SAY HARD SPUN HAS MORE HEART THEN MOST HORSES IVE SEEN GUT IT OUT IN RECENT YEARS. THE KINGS BISHOP COMES TO MIND. BIG BROWNS WIN IN THE HASKELL ON SUNDAY MAY NOT HAVE BEEN HIS BEST PERFORMANCE, BUT I THINK IT SHOWED THAT HE HAS A LITTLE MORE DEPTH THEN MOST GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR. COAL PLAY PUT ON AN OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE AND MADE BIG BROWN WORK FOR A WIN, SOMETHING HES NEVER DONE, OR BEEN ALLOWED TO DO, THANKS KENT. AS FAR AS HIS CONNECTIONS GO, IEAH IS DEFINATLY THE CUTTING EDGE AS FAR AS PHILANTHROPIC GIFTS TO THE RACING INDUSTY, PARTICULARLY IN AREAS OF EQUINE HEALTH. DO YOU SEE OTHER STABLES OUT THERE BUILDING STATE OF THE ART VETERINARY FACILITIES? RICK DUTROW IS GUILTY OF A LOT OF THINGS, HE HAS A BIG MOUTH, AN EGO THE SIZE OF TEXAS AND HE IS ARROGANT AS HELL, BUT THE MAN LOVES HIS HORSES AND HE IS A DAMN FINE TRAINER WITH GENRATIONS OF EXPERIENCE TO DRAW FROM WITHIN HIS OWN FAMILY. THE MAN SHOULD BE GIVEN CREDIT FOR RISING ABOVE THE ADVERSITY HE HAS FACED IN HIS LIFE. REMEMBER HIS TRAINEES WON IN DUBAI TOO. DONT GIVE THE HORSE OF THE YR TITLE AWAY TO ANYONE JUST YET. THERE ARE A LOT OF RACES AND A LOT OF FACTORS THAT WILL DETERMINE WHO GETS THAT AWARD AT THE END OF THE YEAR. AS FAR AS PHYSICAL PROBLEMS BEING THE CAUSE OF BROWNIES WOE'S I DONT THINK THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH HIM PHYSICALLY.I THINK HIS ONLY PROBLEM IS MENTAL, AGAIN, THANKS KENT.  BUT, CONSIDERING ALL THE HIGH PROFILE LIFE AND CAREER ENDING INJURIES WE HAVE ALL SEEN IN RECENT YEARS, A THOROUGH EXAM BY SOMEONE AT NEW BOLTON OR ROOD AND RIDDLE MIGHT BE IN ORDER. DISPITE WHAT ALL THE NAY SAYERS BELIEVE, BIG BROWN IS AN AWESOME ANIMAL AND HAS GIVEN A GREAT MANY OF US SPINE TINGLING THRILLS WITH HIS RACES THIS YEAR.

MDFANOFRACING 04 Aug 2008 6:29 PM

BrownFan~You're right on! I wish people could enjoy this sport instead of constantly degrading it with unfounded, uneducated ridiculous statements. The fractions and final time do not support stating that these are "second rate" horses. Look to the facts, then form your opinion. Constantly comparing horses whether still racing, retired or passed on is not feasable. It does nothing to promote this sport in the manner it deserves. Even a race with Big Brown & Curlin... if it happened and Big Brown won, what good would it do for the sport? NONE. Why, because all the negative people would come up with every reason Curlin lost, and it would be in a good light. While the rest would give every reason why Big Brown won, trying to make it appear that he shouldn't have. It is not good for the future of the sport to degrade almost everything about it. True fans should always support the sport in every possible way in a positive manner. When Barbaro was injured, I overheard a "fan" say,"here's another one for the glue factory." Unlike most sports, this is a sport that needs fans with heart, feeling, passion and caring. Why? Because retired football, baseball etc. players, don't get sent to auctions, kill pens and slaughter. This sport listens to the fans and acts on the many comments and issues surrounding it. The fans in Horse Racing are special and your opinions really count. Many owners, breeders, Jocks, columnists, NTRA, and track owners and more, read and listen to what the fans have to say. I guarantee, they read these blogs, I know it for a fact. So please write something they can use. Promote the sport, don't degrade it. Let the horses do what they do and enjoy every blessed moment. I know I do....  

normajean81258 04 Aug 2008 6:52 PM

What was Big Brown's Beyer's figure for the Haskell?  How about his Thorograph sheet number?

Alan 04 Aug 2008 7:03 PM

fasthorses? You wrote.....

fasthorses 04 Aug 2008 2:39 PM

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe the difference we see in BB pre-Belmont and now is the absense of Winstrol in his training regime?

He isn't carrying the "blossom" he did before he went steroid free... Something to think about.

I am sorry. but I saw BB up close & personal Sunday, and this horse was nothing, if not simply GLEAMING! He was a shining, perky and really happy looking, beautiful race horse. He hasn't had Winstrol since April and I think the only difference I noted, was the lack of a bit of weight. He looked lean & perfectly fit, before & after the race. His connections were genuinely thrilled as were most of the fans. The only thing I can say, is because of the way he's won his races up til the Belmont, everyone either expected him to lose or win by 10 lengths instead of "just winning." Well, his winning is good enough for me!!  

normajean81258 04 Aug 2008 7:11 PM

Big Brown proved that when he is off steroids he is not the horse that won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness.  Without the chemical help he is just an ordinary horse who beat (just barely) absolutely nobody in the Haskell.  

Silver blaze 04 Aug 2008 7:19 PM

I agree with whomever said they would still love this horse if he finished last. I also agree with all who say get a diferent trainer and rider. KD was one of the bigger reasons BB lost the Belmont. I agree with the person that said KD had some kind of panic attack. BB should have been allowed to finish his Belmont and I think KD really killed his spirit that day. I just want BB to stay sound and go on to be awesome as a sire.

gammyp6 04 Aug 2008 7:45 PM

MDFANOFRACING,

Do you honestly think this horse hasn't been examined? Do we have access to know what's going on with him? Kent had to ride the heck out of this colt to beat another colt that was dismissed by Dutrow earlier in the year as a piece of garbage along with all the others like Dennis of Cork etc. BB was a very nice colt. Just like JordanA I have talked to some of my contacts who are well known trainers and they all agree that one incident doesn't constitute a learned behavior and if the colt is having issues he may be sore, 2 veterenarians, one formerly from one of the biggest horse farms in Kentucky and another a graduate of CSU and Cornell University and a professor of veterinary medicine say that behavior like that is usually the sign of soreness or just a reluctance to run. Kent said when he asked him for run in the Belmont he didn't respond, I'm sure the slightly better class of horse had him thinking he didn't want to get after him even more than he did in the Haskell, only to still lose the race and have everyone calling for his execution for abuse. I don't care for Kent personally so it isn't defense of him.  As far as Richard Dutrow Jr.

you say you have heard he loves his horses, the reason I say that is unless you work for him it's only heresay. Most of us race horse or any horse people love their horses but where was Rick when his horse lost the big race and he disappeared on his horse for a couple days.Doed that make the horse have confidence if the person who never left his side for more than a short periods of time for months feel to suddenly disappear for 2 or 3 days. Yes his family history is one of great horsemen, his father went to his grave refusing to speak to Rick and Anthony still won't speak to him. He said this himself and it is common knowledge around the track (I have a friend who trains in that circuit.) If this horse makes it to the BC I guess we'll see, not that I think Curlin is the end all or be all but he has proven a lot and bucked the trend of going to Dubai and being worthless for many many months afterwards. As far as his connections I'm not crazy about them either. By the way what happened with Ricky's suspension, appeal after appeal until years go by.  Iavarone should have followed his instinct and dumped Rick.

katsan 04 Aug 2008 7:50 PM

Thanks Weatherbird for that retort of Pat's humorous stab at Curlin's credentials. People should study before they open they're mouths. Curlin's a growing boy and the grass try I think was just food for thought. BB is a growing boy too and its still too early to judge him harshley. Now if BB's  head is right now, watch out, he could win the rest of them this year. If it was the steroids that helped him out this year, uh oh. But I do agree that its the mature horse that carries the moniker of greatness, not the retirement of the 3 year old and the "what if" clause that always hangs around.

Clay 04 Aug 2008 7:58 PM

Norma Jean. We have had a few trainers on here, they don't usually stay long. To say they read these blogs with any regularity may be an exagerration. A lot of them have said publically they don't read much about the negative stuff and there is a lot of that on blogs and blog comments. In my post I said I got the feeling something isn't quite right with the colt, several trainers here on the left coast think the same. We aren't beating up the colt, just showing the concern that you seem to want. I keep reiterating that so many people who come on blogs are either just fans, handicappers like me(even though I know a lot of trainers and owners), people involved in other horse fields. Rarely are we getting the opinion of a racetracker and when we do it's shouted down. I guess what I'm trying to say is all of our opinions are just that and unless we have access to direct information we should just realize they are our own opinions and respect those as differences.

JordanA 04 Aug 2008 8:00 PM

Aside from not really 'firing', as he had in the classics (quite reasonable, for a horse that had been so man-handled in its last start, had an eight week layoff - and has a history of some foot trouble), and aside from drifting out in the last 1/16th, did anyone else notice how rough Kent was, pulling the horse up?  He did not let BB gallop out, he pulled at him, jerking his head up, and 'wrestling' with BB for 'control'.  It seemed unnecessary, to me.  Granted, I was not ON the horse - but I've never seen anyone rough up a horse that just won, in that fashion, unless the horse is hurt, and needs to be stopped asap.  Although I do feel many a horse will 'duck out' when something is bothering them, I didn't see anything in BB's stride, once the pony caught up with him, to lead him back to the winner's circle, that should have caused Kent to be so rough with the horse! Frankly, I wondered if Kent was taking out on the horse the comments made by Dutrow, about hoping Kent would not do anything to 'interfere' with BB's running style (as he so clearly did, in the Belmont, withing the first quarter, at that!)  I like Kent - but I'm thinking maybe it's time to let Prado, or someone else, on the horse ...

TBRacingFan 04 Aug 2008 8:18 PM

I'm from New Mexico.  We are all waiting here for a New Mexico bred mare, Pepper's Pride, to attempt to go for her 17th straight win, which is a HUGE accomplishment and something for us to be really proud of.  We have our naysayers, too, who say she has run only in New Mexico, only against other New Mexico breds, has had no major competition, the track has to be just right etc.  Well, Brown is Kentucky bred, and has run against other Kentucky breds as well as horses from other states.  To paraphrase Pepper's trainer when he hears all this bah humbag drivel, "If he's so ordinary, how come there aren't a hundred more like him?"  Nuff said.

Brownfan 04 Aug 2008 8:44 PM

I'm not going to take the time to read the 100 or so comments before me. Safe to say some of these points have been made.  Everyone needs to give BB a break - take a deep breath & stand back.  Maybe you're just too close to the action. All I've heard this year is that this is an average bunch of 3 year olds.  If true, then BB is just a head (& maybe a few shoulders) above the fray.  Keep that in mind & stop being so critical. For the record I think we can say he's not the greatest horse on the planet, but he certainly is not where his critics tend to want to place him. And can we separate the horse from the connections PLEASE.  Don't detest an animal because you can't tolerate the baggage that goes with him. That just plain doesn't make sense. Stop comparing BB to Curlin.  Two different leagues to me, sounds like the same with you.  Celebrate what he has brought in the name of horseracing this year: excitement, speculation, controversy, more interest in the sport. He deserves more of your respect for HIS accomplishments.  Accept them and him for what they are.  The Haskell was a valiant performance. He did win, you know. His final charge will be remembered and should be considered one of his greatest achievements (so far). What BB had to do to win the Haskell took more determination that all of his easy wins before it. I rest my case.  

ctgreyhound 04 Aug 2008 8:48 PM

All you Big Brown fans.  Take a breath. Time will tell if he is really great or just another run of the mill horse.

Lou Criscillo 04 Aug 2008 9:03 PM

BB got a really good experience in the Haskell, I think he really is back, I just wish he wouldn't be retired after the Breeder's Cup. He could mature to be such an amazing horse! Until this year, I didn't really even think much of Curlin, look how he's matured. BB could do the same, it might be good for him to return to the turf too. Maybe even just to go at Curlin.

I don't get these nay-sayers here, he won and he won fighting. What would it take for him to really prove himself? Would he have to win the BC by some 20+ lengths or something? Give him a break.

Kekira 04 Aug 2008 9:11 PM

Wow! Coal Play ran such an impressive race! Big Brown not so much.... Coal Play is a grade 2 claiming horse and Big Brown was struggling to beat him....hmmm. Obviously when Dutrow said Big Brown would not be running on steriods in the Belmont he showed how much the horse needs drugs.. and skipping the dosage threw him of for this race as well. If Big Brown really was as good as everyone says he is then he should have won the race by 10 lengths... come on our Kentucky Derby winner should be able to beat a field like that and not have to fight for it. The difference between Coal Play and Big Brown... drugs and no drugs. I'd like to see Big Brown run agaiust Curlin, really because Curlin could run the track twice before Big Brown finishes...

coal play 04 Aug 2008 9:29 PM

2 major things!

1)Big Brown is devoutly bred for the grass course. (has anyone even mentioned this?)

2)The track at Monmouth was rather "dead" because of the previous day's rain.

If you take those things into consideration,he ran a really good race. Unfortunately, he (and everyone else the last 19 years) have performed against a "weak" crop of 3-year-olds.

I would love to see this guy "bang it out in the breeder's cup MILE!!!!!!!!

Boundary-Mien by Nureyev!!!!!!!!!

Thomas J. Conway 04 Aug 2008 9:33 PM

To Weatherbird:

The only point I'm making is that at this point last year Big Brown  has done more than Curlin did up to August of their 3 year old campaign. Yes I'm well aware of Curlin winning last years classic.  The Foster Handicap race is not going to make a difference for me ...why would it if the Dubai win didn't why would the Foster.

Only time will tell who is ducking who....no doubt the Big Brown connection can talk a good talk but as the old saying goes you have to walk the walk.  But like I said in the earlier post my feeling is come the fall Big Brown will be there in the classic and Curlin will not.

Pat 04 Aug 2008 9:47 PM

I wanted Big Brown to win for the first time in his 7-race career. Why? A percent of the $600,000 winner's purse was pledged to ReRun. I hope others follow the example. That gesture has gone a long way to improving my opinion of the Iavarone crowd. I would have otherwise been pulling for one the Mineshaft boys.  

To MDFANOFRACING: Rags to Riches is not just any girl!

I'm also looking forward to seeing Pepper's Pride break the win streak record. What a story!

MRO 04 Aug 2008 9:52 PM

Ed Kane, you write very well.

arthur braudrick 04 Aug 2008 10:00 PM

After watching Big Browns Haskell I was not very impressed with his win.  Yes he did win but he had to use everything he had to win.  I do think that the steroids or lack of them in his system had a lot to do with his lack of intrest in running.  Steroids are known to cause aggresion, and Big Brown looked like he was lacking some of that in this race.  Kent D. really had to beat the crap out of him to get him to run.  I do think that there is also something not right with the horse in the way he was lugging out.  I also agree that you cannot compare Big Brown to Curlin because the situations are completly different.  I do think that Big Brown is a nice horse, not great but nice.  It remains to be seen if he will improve or not.

Linda 04 Aug 2008 10:10 PM

To Clay: "I was not trying to be funny"

Curlin and Hard Spun are the two horses I have rooted for most until the arrival of Big Brown.  In fact being from Canada I feel a special affinity to Curlin because of his Canadian connection being from a Canadian Sire (Smart Strike - Sam Son farm bred) and Broodmare Sire (Deputy Minister).  It just boils down to talent and no matter what their breeding and race performance in my humble opinion Big Brown towers over Curlin. It's just that simple I see greatness where some others don't!

Pat 04 Aug 2008 10:12 PM

From the NYT in July:

"Curlin was named Horse of the Year in 2007, an accomplishment perhaps attained with the help of the anabolic steroid Winstrol, his owner, Jess Jackson, has acknowledged."

newsline 04 Aug 2008 10:13 PM

ctgreyhound, if everyone is like me I read the first sentence of your post and skipped the rest. Like I said all this board is, is average every day people giving their opinion (with the exception of maybe a couple of true racetrackers). However, the sheer arrogance of your first sentence negates anything said by you. YOu probably didn't read Jason's story either.

JordanA 04 Aug 2008 10:22 PM

I keep hearing these comments about what a poor crop of 3 yr. olds this is, how Coal Play is a claiming horse and how much better Curlin is. But when I looked at the times for the Haskell in years past, these times are respectable, pretty middle of the road. And they were faster than last year's times. Maybe Brown has spoiled us. :-)

Karen in Indiana 04 Aug 2008 10:22 PM

I am ecstatic for BB and his connections.  Actually, I think it was one of his better races, regardless of margin.  Come on folks, even horses like Seattle Slew and Secretariat lost at some point.  It's not that you lose, but how you rebound.  60 days between races is a lengthy layoff and especially following the TC.  Give it up and stop your witch hunt - there's nothing wrong with the horse.  Next race will be better and his third race off the layoff will probably be incredible.

Now, not to compare Curlin to BB, but his trainer, much like BB's, has been busted numerous times for doping horses.  Don't think for a second, Asmussen is a standup guy - not the case.  So, while all of you Curlin fans are quick to point the finger, better take a look at your connections before pointing fingers.  Additionally, BB's final time yesterday was approximately 1.5 seconds faster than Curlin's Foster (1:49.68) @ the same distance.  According to the experts, 1/5s = 1 length, so looks to me there's still about 7 lengths between them.  Food for thought, anyway.

DerbyFan 04 Aug 2008 10:22 PM

interesting the amount of 'ducking' comments i've seen above.  until big brown moves into open competition, it would seem he is the one doing any 'ducking'.  as for taking a deep breath, and waiting til big brown retires to tell if he's 'great'.....he got a beyer of 106 for yesterdays effort.  that's not great, the horse isn't great.  he's the best of a mediocre lot, which isn't saying much.  two more races won't make much difference one way or the other.  and for those wishing he'd run next year, iavarone has said since early spring that there is NO way this horse runs again after this year, so you may want to give up that fantasy.  iavarone and his racing partners have made no secret that they need money to bankroll his dream of an expanded stable.  big brown will foot that bill from the shed.

i read dutrows comments about curlin earlier.  what a joke.  guy can't be a sportsman when he loses, and he sure can't be when he wins.

deb 04 Aug 2008 10:27 PM

Thought Brownie looked lazy in The Haskell, and as much as Kent did "right" by taking him back off a pace battle, I'm not sure if THAT'S not the problem: That Big Brown is a speed horse, a very intelligent speed horse who sulks at the thought of taking back---Kent is NOT a speed jock, I'm starting to believe he does NOT fit the horse---take a look at the race: Big Brown shoots out of there and it looks like he wants to be there--at the very least, "ENGAGE KENT, YOU'RE (STILL) ON THE BEST HORSE"!! That's what you do when you have the best horse who wants the lead, give it to him!! That's what they did with Secretariat, he was a lazy horse so they put him into the race, they did not wait with him---Kent, God bless him, he's a waiting/closing jock---get GoGo on him--STAT! He can go with him--ANY jock who can go wire to wire COMFORTABLY--is a better fit than Kent....really, it looked like Big Brown just threw in the towell--and I think this is a SPECIAL HORSE---one who needs his head early and throughout in his races, I hope he comes out OK, he hardly ran 1/4 mile, so he should bounce right back and I'd love to see it: "All Systems GoGo"!

Matthew W 04 Aug 2008 10:32 PM

It's too bad that this year's 3yo's aren't close to how good last year's were with Curlin,Street Sense,Hard Spun and Rags to Riches, while this year we've got Big Brown,Pyro,Colonel John and Macho Again. Because then Big Brown would actually get some challengers in his future races.

Huh 04 Aug 2008 10:42 PM

I just read that the connections of Big Brown are looking for a spot on grass for him next.  Interesting.  The same article mentions Dutrow asking why everyone thinks Curlin is such a great horse.  Sigh.  Some things never change!

Runfast159 04 Aug 2008 10:43 PM

I'm hoping that what IEAH said is true and that Big Brown is turf bound, I mean imagine that BC Turf matchup of Big Brown vs. Curlin.

Huh 04 Aug 2008 10:44 PM

Ed Kane excellent post and thoughts. For some of you that think nothing of running people down personally i.e. Rick Dutrow, I suggest you grow up. Big Brown is not Secretariat or Man o'War. But he is a wonderful horse with talent and guts and I very much look forward to seeing him run again. I wish all those connected with him the best of luck and I wish Big Brown a long and happy life.

Paula Higgins 04 Aug 2008 10:57 PM

Ed Kane, I have to agree with Arthur, that was very well written.

I agree it annoys me how so many are  quick to take credit away from horses who don't live up to certain "expectations."

aspradling 04 Aug 2008 11:16 PM

Just wanted to say that the last race Brownie ran in was very confusing for him--"go for the lead....no wait...slow down...let's go outside....top of the stretch (where he normally makes his big move)....let's stop!!"  He needed the Haskell to regain confidence in himself and in Kent and he did what he needed to do--it's been 2 months, he needed the race and you can see when he starts getting his confidence, he really dug in and went on to win.  I thought it was a very nice effort after a 2 month layoff and recovering from a quarter crack.  He won....a W is a W people!!!

Tigger 04 Aug 2008 11:20 PM

ENOUGH ALREADY..COAL PLAY MAY NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING PRIOR BUT HE RAN THE RACE OF HIS LIFE. IF YOU CLOCK THE BEGINING OF THE TURN TO THE FOLLOWING FURLONG MARKER IT IS 11 SECONDS FLAT, THAT COAL PLAY WAS BLAZING FAST,HE WOULD HAV WON AT 1 MILE AND 16. NOW, YOU SEE WHY HE TOOK OFF ON BIG BROWN BUT IT IS EVEN MORE REMARKABLE THAT BIG BROWN CAUGHT HIM.THE RACE IS A BIT DECEIVING IN THAT VISUALLY IT LOOKS SLOW BUT ALL THE RUNNING OCCURRED THE LAST 3 FURLONGS PRIOR TO THE FINAL FURLONG AND THAT WAS 35 AND CHANGE. LETS BE A BIT MORE SMART WHEN WE ANALYZE THESE RACES, DRAYNOT MATH NEVER FAILS AND LIES,YEA THE FINAL FURLONG WAS AN AVERAGE 13 SECONDS BUT THE WHEN YOU RUN 35 SECONDS THE PREVIOUS 3 THAT IS A REASON WHY. BIG BROWN RAN A HECK OF A RACE AND COAL PLAY IS NO SLOUCH EITHER AFTER THOSE CLOCKINGS. BIG BROWN BRING ON THE ENEMIES,TIME NEVER LIES.

DANYLSON 04 Aug 2008 11:23 PM

JordanA~ thanks for your words. I agree that most "industry" people dont "like" to read the negatives written. But I can tell you, they do. It's like watching a train wreck, they can't look away. I'm sure they duct tape their hands to the desk so as to not write anything in retort. It's very hard not to attack on here and else where when you really want to strangle people! LOL But anyway, I do read all that is written, it helps me keep in touch with what people are thinking as well as seeing how informed the fans are. I am impressed by the wealth of knowledge, it helps me learn as well. I may get mad from time to time with some of the opinions, but, 2 things I remember: one is, everyone has an opinion, whether it's an educated one or not,

and the other is: opinions change as quickly as the weather. So I read them to learn and keep in touch, and sometimes respond. Pepper's Pride is a wonderful horse, I'd love to see her cross our border! And yes, if BB was so ordinary, why aren't there 100 more like him?? I'm going to enjoy this boy while we have him, and keep watching these up & coming 2 year olds for next year. I see quite a few great ones coming......

normajean81258 04 Aug 2008 11:23 PM

No matter what happens with the rest of Big Browns races hs is a great horse and deserves to be respected.He keeps us all interested in what is going on and has a great personality for the cameras.I hope he is told that he is loved every day.

Tracy 04 Aug 2008 11:28 PM

A dead fit horse who is galluping and working well does NOT lose conditioning being off 60 days.Please do not use that argument in regards to Big Brown not winning by the length of the grandstand.The horse ran  down the front end late while lugging out. You can see quite clearly on the Bloodhorse.com headline picture that the right line is loose. That means the rider is steering hard on the left line trying to keep him from lugging to the outside fence. That folks is not good. That tells me there is something stinging this horse maybe his feet. Quarter cracks take a long time to heal, and if you don't quit on them and keep training they take even longer.Lastly I'm one of those few people who has been on this blog since day one and oh yeah I'm also one of those people that actually knows what their talking about. I liked this horse when he broke his maiden but I question how sound he's going to be down the road at BC. Please don't say the horse remembered the Belmont that's why he was confused.The only thing this horse wants to do is run and he's trying even tho he's not 100%. That's what you breed them for, Heart and ability and he has both!

Wanda 04 Aug 2008 11:39 PM

ONE MORE THING, LETS GIVE CREDIT WHEN A HORSE DESERVES IT. THIS HASKELL WAS RUN FASTER THAN THE FOLLOWING HASKELL RUNNERS;CHEROKEE RUN,ROCK HARD TEN,LION HEART,ROMAN RULER,SUN KING,ANY GIVEN SATURDAY,HARD SPUN,CAPTAIN STEVE, AND O YES CURLIN; THOSE ARE ALL TALENTED HORSE,GR.1 MOST OF THEM, AND BIG BROWN WOULD HAVE BEAT THEM ALL ACCORDING TO THE TIME...PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS DRAYNOT,MG AND ALL OTHERS BEFORE JUDGING,BIG BROWN IS CLASS,HE MAY NOT BE SECRETARIAT OR MAN O WAR BUT HE IS BIGGGGGGGGG BROWN!

DANYLSON 04 Aug 2008 11:43 PM

Big Brown broke running and was taken back, yet had to rebreak going into the first turn because another horse came alongside--so by the time they straightened up the backside, Big Brown had lost position AND been harder used for having to rebreak/gather up by a way too hands on jock--he won despite Kent and they better get this: Big Brown is like Swaps, if he breaks--you go! Don't worry so much--ride this horse with confidence from the get-go...don't fight his nature, if you go with that flyer start he runs them off their feet by ten, so I think he's back....but give him his head, he knows what to do/let him do it!!

Matthew W 04 Aug 2008 11:54 PM

BY THE WAY HE ALSO RAN FASTER THAN POINT GIVEN,PEACE RULES,BLUEGRASS CAT.....I THINK THOSE ARE GOOD HORSES.......BIG BROWN IS CLASSSSS

DANYLSON 04 Aug 2008 11:56 PM

It's a bummer that we won't see BB at Saratoga this summer.  I'd love to see him run in the midsummer derby!  This race definitely left me wanting to see more just to see if he's heading back to form or if he's going to struggle without Winstrol.  The old horses ran races that were three weeks apart or closer, it'd be really sporting if they'd try it with BB.

And perhaps I've gone senile... but I don't remember Smarty Jones starting after the Belmont.  Have I just forgotten something???

Racefan66 05 Aug 2008 12:04 AM

I see people are still bringing up the fact Curlin got nosed out by Rags to Riches in last year's Belmont. Let's look at the facts.

Rags was the more seasoned horse at that time, running for almost a year longer and more than twice the amount of races than Curlin did at that point. Remember, Curlin was only in his fourth month of racing, and only his sixth race. Rags was coming off a nice 5 week rest, where Curlin had run two grueling Triple Crown Races in that time. She got a 5 pound weight allowance. And she was after all, a "super filly". But with all that the main reason Curlin lost was he was pinned on the rail for the first time in his brief career during the entire stretch run and ran it tentatively. All his races up to that point had him on the outside. If he would have been outside Rags that day he would have prevailed.

And lets not forget what that effort did to poor Rags...she was never the same after running her heart out that day, That race ruined her.

Saratoga AJ 05 Aug 2008 12:22 AM

Good observations about his times. Wanda, I understand what you are saying and maybe there is a problem. I think time will tell if there really is something going on, whether they can figure it out or not. If there is in fact a problem, it makes his win in the Haskell even more impressive. This horse has guts.

Paula Higgins 05 Aug 2008 12:25 AM

Normajean, I asked 5 trainers that you would recognize the minute I said their names and all said they don't read the blog comments. They read the articles, the q&a's sometimes but most of them looked at me like I was from another planet saying they read the DRF and once in a while the BH but really don't have time for most of it since they are living it from 5 in the morning, spending some time with their families and working 7 days a week. I also recall an extremely well known trainer saying many years ago that he only reads the stuff about his outfit and was selective about that since the negativity would cause so much self doubt they wouldn't be able to function. We're all guilty of second guessing on here. On the HBO special about blogs several famous football players said they've read a few times, never responded or had the urge to do so. Guess when it's your life and livelihood you can't let the people who know nothing about the reality intrude into your life and try to tell you how to run the show and cause self doubts. We had one guy on here who admitted to being a long time trainer and admitted everyone who knew he was commenting thought he had lost his mind. He had some interesting points as only an old timer can, but seemed to get frustrated or maybe just too busy. There were also a couple of owners that dropped off too after the TC. I think there is one admitted horsewoman and one retired horsewoman on here now. I wish we had more and love it when Jason has the q&a's with people like Doug and Larry Jones. The people in the trenches.

JordanA 05 Aug 2008 12:31 AM

FOR THOSE WHO SAY THE STEROIDS HAVE CAUSE A LET DOWN ON BIG BROWN LETS THINK; CORTOSOIDE,USE TO TREAT SKIN INFECTIONS OR RASHES HAS A STEROID AND SOME MORE THAN ONE STEROID, WHEN APPLIED TO THE SKIN OF THE HUMAN IT IS "BELIEVED" TO HELP STOP THE RASH OR INFECTION... BUT STEROID ARE STILL BEING ABSORBED BY THE BODY RIGHT? TRUST ME I'VE PUT THIS CREAM ON MY SKIN WHICH HAD 3 STEROIDS AND IT NEVER MADE ME RUN ANY FASTER...SO WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WHEN WE TALK ABOUT STEROIDS AND THEIR TYPES..ON ANOTHER NOTE BIG BROWN LOOKED LIKE T.O.(TERRELL OWENS) OR MICHAEL JOHNSON(GOLD SHOES 200 METER RECORD HOLDER) HOW RIPPED AND ATHLETIC HE LOOKED WITH OUT ANY THING...PLEASE NO MORE STEROID GARBAGE TALK

DANYLSON 05 Aug 2008 12:40 AM

Do we know if Big Brown was back on steroids? That played a big role in the Belmont. Aka his loss. If he's not back on them, I'm not suprised by his less-than-amazing win, visually anyway.

Sandy 05 Aug 2008 12:52 AM

Wow, we all have something to say about this! I question the long layoffs, and I just do not think Big Brown is 100% sound for racing. I've been a horseperson most of my life, breeder, trainer, and I have ridden a lot of horses. I think he has bad feet,and that's not agood thing for any type of performance horse.

Suzanne 05 Aug 2008 1:03 AM

He's a very good horse, but he is not among the greats no matter how many wish he were.

Justahunch 05 Aug 2008 1:05 AM

Big Brown quit running in the Belmont. Great horses NEVER quit running unless injured. And BB was not injured. End of discussion.

Saratoga AJ 05 Aug 2008 1:20 AM

I just checked out his ad on Three Chimneys, and I love his pedigree. Northern Dancer on both sides, but far enough back. When I clicked on conformation, there was a picture of him running in the Derby. Three feet are off the ground showing some serious corrective shoes. I say retire this guy, and let him get some babies cooking!

Suzanne 05 Aug 2008 1:41 AM

Someone on here said that BB's return was better than Smarty Jones return after the Belmont.  Smarty never raced after the Belmont so there is nothing to compare.

MonicaV 05 Aug 2008 1:53 AM

Big Brown's Haskell win VINDICATES Desormeaux as regards his decision to pull up the horse in the Belmont.

It took guts to beat Coal Play ... a horse with a wonderful pedigree, inbred to the swift Nashua (many horses are) in a very symmetrical way. Coal Play was certainly an interesting bet and gave backers quite a thrill.

In the Pink 05 Aug 2008 2:25 AM

BB is back & one more race away from taking a shot @ the MIGHTY Curln on real dirt before the breeder's cup...believe me...BIG BOY BROWN IS BACK IN TOWN!!!...Long Live The Dirt!!!

Bellwether 05 Aug 2008 2:50 AM

ps...a new jock is in order for BB also...LLTK!!!

Bellwether 05 Aug 2008 3:15 AM

Hi!

I would like to see Big Brown having a good life at Three Chimneys.BB has had a tough three year old campaign. It was demonstrated in the Haskell.I do not question the courage or heart of Big Brown, I only question the intent and the agendas of BB's connections. I do not believe the horse is sound enough to take the rigors of a tough fall campaign with his feet being an issue and the wear and tear of the early part of the season. Kris

kris fujimoto 05 Aug 2008 3:22 AM

we all know that big brown was off the winstrol but how many horses behind him in the haskell were taking winstrol, afterall it is a legal substance. Curlin was on it!!! So lets ask the trainers of the other 6 horses and see if they will answer as honestly as Dutrow.

chris 05 Aug 2008 5:25 AM

normajean81258,

What horseracing needs more than caring fans is people who throw money into the sport. You don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal or animal rights activist to be a "fan".

The name of the game is money. Without it the sport either dies or is relagated to very minor status (I'll meet you in the pasture and we'll see who's horse is faster). Bettors, most of whom are only looking just to make a buck or two are the fuel that drives the sport. Take them away and every track in the country goes dark. A good handicapper learns to leave emotion out of the equation, it can only lead to long losing streaks. Most of the casual bettors go to the track for entertainment and have no insight or caring about the rest of the business.

Where would thoroughbred racing be without the sheik brothers, magna, team valor, stonerside, or a host of other big money players? Without the money players there would be no media coverage to promote the sport as well. You are kidding yourself to believe horseracing only needs "caring fans". None of the above would be players if it didn't mean they could flaunt their money or make more of it. They love the sport because it allows them to reign supreme. They are like any other big business leaders, they are power hungry and use their money to exert it.

It's a business and as such human emotion is only a small part of the big picture. "Caring Fans" make up only a portion of the base.

For some it's sad but true.

moneymaker 05 Aug 2008 8:11 AM

Pat, if Big Brown wins horse of the year honors this year then I will agree with you. Until he beats older horses and wins the Breeders Cup, to me he's just another good horse like Street Sense or Hard Spun. It's your opinion and that's what makes these blogs so fun. Have you been to Woodbine race course? I was wondering how they can keep they're purses so high.

Clay 05 Aug 2008 10:01 AM

Interesting that the Three Chimneys add featuring Big Brown just came up on this website after the Haskell. Wonder when it would have come up if he hadn't won?

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 10:34 AM

What's wrong with Big Brown?  Probably nothing other than the fact that he is under raced.  His final time in the Haskel equalled the best time at the distance in the last three years.  What's wrong with that?  If you look at the race, he looked beaten just before they turned for home, like he might even finish third.  Then the jock got into him and even though he didn't eactly takeoff, he responded, looking much like a horse that didn't want to be beaten.  Coal Play ran a great race if he was runnng 1-1/16.  That's when he hit the wall.  He coasted the next 1/16.  Big Brown was just getting going.  If this race was at 1-1/4 miles he would hae probably won by 8 or 10 and everyone would be back on the bandwagon.  He is a true 1-1/4 horse which would set him up for the Classic.

Lazmannick 05 Aug 2008 10:43 AM

I was a little concerned seeing Brownie break out of the post in the lead.  He was so "excited" to get back to racing that he made a break for it when the gates opened. I think that spurt of energy took a toll on him, coming so early in the race.

If anything, Brownie needs to be raced MORE often.  Look how well he did with so little time between Derby and Preakness.  I think he could have pulled off a Belmont win, but getting bumped in the beginning seemed to throw off his game, as did starting from the inside.  It got very cramped on that inside rail in the beginning, and Brown doesn't like to be hemmed in.  That's why he likes to go to the outside.

No matter if Brown had won or lost in the Haskell, I'd still adore that horse - there's just something so charismatic about him.

But if he has too much downtime between races, he forgets what he's supposed to do.  He's got that "extra gear" in reserve - but if he doesn't have the chance to use it against competition, he has to struggle to get to it.  He's a horse that truly enjoys to run, and he should be allowed and encouraged to do so.

Maybe instead of working him out solo, they should occasionally give him someone to work out *against*, so he can keep that "extra gear" fresh.

I was shocked to see KD whipping Brown, too - Desormeaux never needed the whip before.  But I still think it's because Brown used up so much energy breaking out in the lead.  If he raced more often, he wouldn't be so excited about racing that he'd use up everything our of the gate.

As Brown's connections told KD right before the race - let Brown do what he wants to do, don't interfere.  I say the same to Brown's connections - this horse wants to run, to compete.  Give him some downtime, yes, but let him do what he loves and wants to do - RACE.

INNIE 05 Aug 2008 10:48 AM

First, let me say that all of the people that posted comments on here,did it in a class way,everytime I post something on FHF forum,which I liked at the beginning,I get lambasted,mostly because of my defense of BB.The comments on here are so much better,no one seems to get all bent out of shape because another person has a difference of opinon, so Thanks for that,Anyway has anyone noticed any pictures of BB recently?I saw one of him at monmouth,it looked like he was looking right at it the camera while running, I hope he isnt getting where he's distracted by people, cameras etc. someone comment on this ,I'm curious

ruffian518 05 Aug 2008 11:01 AM

Just read Dutrow's comments about Curlin and had to laugh.  Same ol' Dutrow.  Gets angry and pouts when he is disrespected...yet thinks nothing of disrespecting others.  Sounds to me like he can dish it out but can't take it.  Not a good trait in a high-profile horseman.  

Also, I was expecting the "send BB to the turf" tactic!  I think it's a great idea!  I miss the days of the top horses being great no matter what surface they are on.  There are a few out there now, but why not promote and encourage more to come?!  I say a Curlin/BB "match" race on the turf would be better for the BB connections.  That way BB actually may have a prayer of coming within 10 lengths of Curlin.

Kelly E. 05 Aug 2008 11:12 AM

Coal Play is the horse who ran a gutsy race not Big Brown.  BB is already an accomplished horse.  For Coal Play to step up and run like he did is phenomenal.  If he wasn't so leg weary, he would have beat BB hands down. Zito has always had faith in this horse and should be  given tons of credit. As far as Curlin, let's see how spectacular he continues to be now that JJ has warned his trainer about running clean.  BB is not the same horse without the winstrol, and I believe the same will be true of Curlin.  Otherwise, they would already have shipped to Europe.  What happened to Atoned?  He didn't run like he was supposed to either.  

Sue 05 Aug 2008 11:21 AM

It's fascinating to read all the comments here.  It's so amazing how differently people see things and in reality, nobody can say they are right.  It's purely everybody has an opinion.  Big Brown sparks lots of controversy no matter what.  I've never seen the likes of this before.

My personal opinion is that BB is a marvelous horse, no one can dispute that.  He's absolutely the best 3 year old hands down.  I actually didn't think he'd win the Haskell, I didn't think he would be the same horse coming back and for a while there he looked to be beaten but he reached down inside himself to his heart and won.  He did struggle but he did it.  He won, pure and simple.  It certainly was not a stellar field, in fact it wasn't much of a field at all but no matter, it will go down as a win for him no matter who he ran against.  This is needed for his stud career which is alredy being advertised.

That jabs at Curlin are as undeserved as the jabs at BB.  Curlin is the best older horse and BB is the best 3 year old.  I really think it's time to match them up.  The Curlin camp wanted to race him on grass and he was not as brilliant as he normally is but he hadn't trained much on the surface and didn't really embarrass himself with a second against a Breeders Cup winner.  I really believe he is a dirt horse and I really think it's time to put an end to the "ducking" issue and who is the best horse.  The classic is being run on synthetic this year.  I don't believe either horse has run on synthetic yet but I will say this...as good as those two horses are I think that would be a true test.  These two are the best running and I really don't think that a "synthetic" horse could beat either one of them.  I really think that it will likely come down to those two in the classic no matter the surface.  

Another scenario could be the Jockey Club Gold Cup.  That's a good prep for the Classic.  It would be great to see that and put an end to the "ducking" and and end to who is the best.  

I think it's time to stop belittling either horse.  Curlin is an amazing animal and I think that on dirt, he is unbeatable.  Big Brown is amazing as well.  I really think that Dutrow is the reason he has so many people against BB.  So little sportsmanship and so many jabs at Curlin leave a bad taste in one's mouth.  Ivarone is doing damage control.  Note that Dutrow isn't allowed to talk much.  But no matter what, it's the horses that are battling for the owners and trainers.  It's time for Curlin vs Big Brown and everyone wants to see it.

Oh, and Derbyme, Smarty Jones never raced after the Belmont so BB's return is not better than Smarty's return because it never happened.

MonicaV 05 Aug 2008 11:40 AM

Racefan66: I couldnt agree with you more. Big Brown not runing in either the Travers or Woodward is disappointing. It seems by running in the Haskell and whatever race he runs in September, Saratoga was just an afterthought for his connections. Its the best meet in the world. He's the best 3-year-old. Find a way to race there.

jshandler 05 Aug 2008 11:48 AM

MonicaV: I think that person was saying that in jest. Like some, he probably believes that Smarty could in fact have run after the Belmont.

jshandler 05 Aug 2008 11:53 AM

Hey Jason, haven't posted for a while, have read some. See we still have the BB debate going. One person struck me on here,

Normajean who mentioned the use of Winstrol. Also she went from being a fan to being someone involved in racing, funny how that works. The other thing is the comment about love to see Peppers Pride cross our border. If you are in PA she'd have to cross several borders otherwise it sounds like you are saying she'd cross over THE border, last time I looked New Mexioc in in the US. You may need to read a little more and get a few more opinions. Not to pick on you but what BB has done has for the most part been matched by a  # of horses. What Peppers Pride is doing has not. I'm from the left coast, my girlfriends Aunt is in racing in a big way in some of the really big circuits KY, NY etc and I asked if she reads this stuff, she said the articles often,blog sometimes, the comments basically never and most of her race type friends are the same. They have enough naysayers, self doubts and so forth than to read about them when you also consider they hear a lot on the track, shout downs, rants and conversations of 'fans' there. She also said her trainer said it's like the way the coaches warn College BB players to not read the publicity but do use another teams jab at them as motivation. Also as far as beating up on Dutrow, if he'd stop giving people fodder, people wouldn't comment in return.

 

Bradgm 05 Aug 2008 12:10 PM

I think we learned that Big Brown is a good horse, but that we should not be surprised at all that he lost the Belmont Stakes.

The fact that sportswriters continue to suggest that his Belmont performance was a mystery is stunning. I was cheering for Big Brown Sunday despite liking Zito's horses as well.

There are a number of factors why I believe it would have been a miracle if he would have won the Belmont Stakes:

1. The heat. It was 88 degrees and humid at race time.

2. His quarter crack limited his training. He missed about an entire week in training in the three weeks between races. This is significant.

3. In the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness he ran around the outside of both tracks covering much more ground than any of the other horses and probably adding another quarter to a half mile to his effort in those races. In the Belmont stakes Big Brown saved little ground going around the outside of both turns. The final turn seemed particularly dry and sandy that day.

4. Jockey Kent Desormeaux spoke of how he just lets the horse do his thing in an interview on ESPN the day before the race. In the Belmont, Desormeaux was trying to muscle the horse this way and that in the first turn. Then he took him around the outside of the track the whole way around.

5. When Smarty Jones was challenging for the Triple Crown there were many doubters because Jones had never run on the Belmont Track before. There is a reason why Belmont Park is nicknamed "The Big Sandy". Its because its dirt is hard to grab a hold of at certain places. This was never mentioned leading up to Big Brown's race or afterwards and it should have been.

6. Big Brown was taken off steroids the absolute wrong way. It should have been gradual and he was cut off sharply. It did not affect him in the Preakness, but it took its toll in the Belmont Stakes.

7. He was a lightly raced three year old with only three races coming into the Kentucky Derby. This reality gave him little stamina as the Triple Crown campaign began.

8. The field of three year olds this year was lackluster. As much as I love Pyro and War Pass and others, they just have not proven to be in the same league as Any Given Saturday, Street Sense, Curlin and Hard Spun.

With all these factors involved and working against Big Brown, he was tired and really had little chance of succeeding in the Belmont Stakes.

Why would anyone be surprised that he lost? What is the mystery?

Zatman 05 Aug 2008 12:14 PM

Just noticed the banner at the top of the home page for Three Chimneys

and Big Brown, advance pub or what?

As far as Dutrow not talking much, not as much but still has the 'help I'm talking and can't shut up' syndrome.

JordanA 05 Aug 2008 12:16 PM

Yo Jason....Your Philly Homeboy Here! Yo brother Big Brown looked good IMO! Hey at least he is running and didn't retire right? Maybe that loose shoe in the Belmont does hold weight afterall. He showed heart winning after the layoff on a hot day. I would love to see him use the Pennsylvania Derby at Philly as a prep before Breeders Cup Day.

Johnny Mas 05 Aug 2008 12:20 PM

Can I get a comment from a trainer of RACEHORSES on this blog about lugging out please! A horse cannot make a big run under a heavy drive when he is lugging out.KD was hitting him right handed because the horse was lugging out NOT because he was confused or being timid.I thought it was a huge effort for a horse in MY opinion isn't 100%.The steroid thing is a moot point because they are now testing for levels at the host track for BC. Next year all win and your in races will have testing done as well. Blood doping and milkshaking will be tested for also.

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 12:32 PM

Let me clarify my remark by saying a friend who is a girl.

Bradgm 05 Aug 2008 12:34 PM

Big Brown displayed heart and real grit in winning the Haskell.  I'm glad he won.  But his two races without Winstrol leave me wondering how much the steroid influenced his past performances.  I'm glad he's off the juice.  After reading all the comments, I'm surprised that no one questioned whether Coal Play might have been racing on Winstrol or something similar.  My understanding is that steroid use hasn't been totally banned yet.  And I recall that Nick Zito, a trainer I like, declined to answer about whether his horses were racing on steroids before the Belmont.  I know I will be happy when the use of Winstrol etc. is banned.  As it is now, so often when a horse puts in an extraordinary effort compared to its past performances, I'm wondering if the horse has been given a 'little something.'  As a long time fan of racing and other horse sports, the well being of the horse is always most important.  When I witness an extraordinary performance I want to know it is clean.  I hope Big Brown performs well in his final races.  He's a good horse.    

maryann 05 Aug 2008 12:42 PM

Curlin definitely showed some heart, but was all out to do it.  Brownie was hit at least 15 times by Kent from the far turn home.  10 of those whips were with serious intent (watch the replay).  I am not sure Brown is the same Superhorse we saw, although he ran a great race to win.  But he was 120% to get it done, and will need more than that to beat a Curlin....

JR 05 Aug 2008 12:43 PM

if you see when big browns on his left lead his front leg(where the quarter crack is)was giving him a bit of trouble and as soon as he switched leads he took off. so give his quarter crack time to heal and he'll be the same freak you saw in Kentucky

michelle 05 Aug 2008 12:44 PM

I haven't read all these posts, but does anyone agree that the colt just could not go a mile and a half in the Belmont? The first time at longer distances is always the big question mark for younger horses. Has anyone in the press or elsewhere recognized this as the reason why the colt stopped?

Ronnie 05 Aug 2008 1:00 PM

if Big Brown was born a year earlier, he wouldn'y have hit the board in the Haskell

DDDD 05 Aug 2008 1:03 PM

Brad, good thing you clarified that or your wife might be your soon to be ex. BGM,me and one other guy on here are handicapping best friends. The girlfriend is actually mine, therefore his friend who is a girl(CYA BGM) We are all up in Saratoga and had this conversation this a.m. over breakfast, all but our wounded buddy who is at home. He is the only one still commenting regularly. The conversation with the Aunt is just as stated. Everyone in the idustry is talking about the underwhelming performance and once again Rick Dutrow's big mouth. Please let's not get into the steroid debate again, we know how that turned out before. Although the longer off the roids the more the proof to the anti's. We went to the sale for a while last night, too nervewracking so we watched from afar, afraid to scratch my nose although supposedly they have to know who you are, or so we were told. Maybe the guy who told us that just wanted a few more horses to train.

BIGHORSEFAN 05 Aug 2008 1:03 PM

Schabelli: I can see the Belmont for what it is. A disaster caused by many, many circumstances, including his jockey. Sorry. You might not want to hear it but Kent played a huge part in BB's failure in that race. So to move on from the past and on to the Haskell. Mediocre competition? The clock doesn't lie. This was a respectable race and BB had to work hard to take down Coal Play who was running some solid fractions.

Sue: Coal Play did run a heck of a race but to say BB didn't because he is already "accomplished" doesn't make much sense to me. One could argue the schedule BB has had versus Coal Play and that would blow that theory out of the water.  Coal Play is a talent to watch. I was impressed with him, but much more impressed with BB for showing his grit and heart in this race.

Karen2 05 Aug 2008 1:04 PM

Wanda, I made a comment about it, I am an ex assistant trainer whose boss is very close and a pain in the neck trainer, yes you guessed it also related-closely. He thinks I'm nuts for posting on here, says he needs to unretire me too much time on my hands. I already commented that something appears to be wrong with the horse, read Jordan A say he has spoken with a lot of West Coast trainers and they said the same. We also said it isn't a learned behavior after the one incident in the Belmont. The only thing with the steroids is the difference between the horse on and off it. Interestingly like someone said BB was all out to get to the 2nd place colt who is a won a maiden and an allowsance. My trainer connection refuses to come on here, the other trainer we had left and hasn't been back. So much for that belief that lots of them read this stuff. Oh well I think it's you former, me with a current that I listen to sometimes and some handicappers who are connected to the game. Just heard Curlin going to the Woodward.

katsan 05 Aug 2008 1:16 PM

Curlin's next start is the Woodward, boy am I glad that he's back on the dirt and not Arc bound.

Huh 05 Aug 2008 1:32 PM

(First paragraph is a repeat on NTRA.com)

To be quite honest, and as I have aforementioned above, I am happy and glad that he won, but I am not overly impressed by it. The switching leads is something of which shows that he lacks any experience to face better competition in the older ranks, especially if it looked like he "tired" or literally had to work "hard" to slug it out and catch a 20-1 shot. It just seems odd for a horse that was touted as the best of the best be seen struggling home down the lane. Something is not right, and the idea of training up to the Classic is not a very welcomed idea. He needs to face the older crowd to see how he fairs in light of this performance. For one thing, it doesn't give me much confidence that he’ll win, if he does the same thing against the likes of Curlin. Big Brown appeared off, not wanting to actually go when Kent D. asked him on the far turn; it took the colt a LONG TIME to finally get rolling, which is something no one wants to see him ever do again in the next couple of races. I'm a bit skeptical, and worried, about him. Of course, one could point out that ever since IEAH Stables proclaimed that their horses will be "drug free," that Big Brown wasn't simply himself without the help of whatever Rick Dutrow gave him in the winter and spring months. Or one could point out that the Haskell almost pretty much set up like the Belmont (Coal Play gunning for the lead, Big Brown coming out a bit slow and right behind, the near blocking on the first turn, Kent D. bumping the charge on the outside to go two or three-wide for a position on the slight outside of the front runner, the far turn incident when Big Brown never fully responded appropriately to the hard urgings of Kent D, etc). Or one could also point out that the layoff and the odd work schedule did him in, despite his win. One thing is for sure; hopefully the victory will help boost the confidence for the colt and might add him to do better next time out. But the next time maybe the last time, an unwise decision by the connections.

As for those who are saying that Curlin is ducking Big Brown, that can’t be right.  Curlin hasn’t been ducking anyone, while facing all kinds of competition from overseas to dirt to grass, and neither could he run in three-year-old races where Big Brown has been running primarily in as of late.  Rather, it’s Big Brown ducking Curlin.  It’s time that the three-year-old colt faces the older folks and shows us how he really fares against more mature competition.

There are several things I would like address:

» I agree with the idea that Big Brown seems to be having “sensitivities” to certain elements in racing that the real greats overcame, including “Big Sandy” and all kinds of weather Mother Nature throws at you.  If he has problems with the harsh climate, then he better get used to it real quick, because if a horse can’t win and survive especially on the East Coast where we get all kinds of crappy weather, then he is nothing than a babied horse.  Unlike those of the yester year, horses today seem to be less of a horse to acclimate to their natural surroundings and be themselves.

» Another thing, Big Brown should be less rank by now and shouldn’t be drifting out about five or six-wide in the lane; that possibly contributed in a winning-length loss.  That was what, his seventh start?  Horses by now usually understand the basics and can run straight more properly at this stage of the ball game.

» The lack of response on the far turn is not from a result from his feet; in a recent article, Dutrow said that his feet were fine after the race.  Maybe, it was the fact that Big Brown’s confidence wasn’t up to par as we all had expected.  He seemed unwilling to go, and when he did, he literally struggled to catch up to a long shot.  Grant it, Coal Play could be on the improve, but if the second half of the season, all the other three-year-olds are catching up to Big Brown, then what are the chances of Big Brown winning convincingly/ just as easily as he did earlier this year?  Remember, all horses, especially three-year-olds, develop differently.  Most often times, young horses have a peak performance as two-year-olds, while others have their peak performances where it counts the most of their young lives, in the spring of their sophomore year.  Maybe, Big Brown was the best of the spring, but possibly is slowly declining from his peak form.  I guess the best visual aspect of such a “peak” is in the example of the PS2 Gallop Racer game.  I know, it’s not at all realistic, but just imagine how horses have preformed in the past and how that can parallel to what times of their life they hit their peaks and therefore plummeted dramatically there afterwards or keep going up the form ladder.  One earlier bloomer that comes to mind is Riva Ridge.  Now, I love Riva Ridge, but after the Triple Crown series and after a struggling run and a win in the Hollywood Gold Cup (does that seem like déjà vu in the Haskell with Big Brown?), Riva Ridge wasn’t the same horse ever again.  Yes, he won, but he wasn’t what he used to be.  Just because a horse wins a race after the grueling spring campaign, doesn’t mean he or she will be the same horse as in earlier in the year.  Now, horses can regress and certainly deserve their mulligan and can bounce right back to where they left off, but most often, horses drop in form because the rest of their fellow “classmates” are catching up to them, are maturing, and have enough experience to absorb bumping and get used to the fact that they can’t always have their ideal positioning in the race, yet they continue to move forward in a big way.

» Post positions of the past shouldn’t be a problem.  Remember, Big Brown won on the far outside earlier in the year, but when he got near the rail (Belmont and Haskell), he seemed to have a problem.  Maybe, if he is such a speed horse, he should be placed right on the lead, not stalking.  That’s where I think he could best show his well best.  Then again, everyone has to keep in mind that maybe it’s his pedigree that is catching up to him (being from a sprinter/ miler sire in Boundary).  The late blooming three-year-olds seem to possess the correct pedigree for the route distances and are getting their with each widening stride, while Big Brown had been winning with tactical speed alone that clearly surpassed the others earlier this year because they didn’t have the same kind of sprinter/ speed power as Big Brown, and with that kind of power, you can easily demolish your field who are still struggling to get into their own.

» Although not very many people want to admit (because they refuse to see it that way and are too stubborn to understand), but compared to last year’s crop of three-year-olds, this one is no where near as good.  Let’s see here…we had Any Given Saturday, Curlin, Nobiz Like Showbiz (an excellent turfer), Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Tiago.  (For anyone wanting to know, last year’s Kentucky Derby runner, Liquidity, is on the comeback trail.)  Now, how can anyone argue that?  But as I’m going to play devil’s advocate, the people that don’t want to admit it have a point too.  After all, it’s half-way through the year.  Who is to say that this year’s crop of three-year-olds might flourish late in the year?  But that’s a problem, right?  Last year’s crop of three-year-olds carried their form ALL THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, not just in the second half.

» And for anyone’s information, Big Brown wasn’t challenged.  He hasn’t been seen eye-to-eye in the stretch, nor did anyone come up to challenge him.  He neither challenged the front runner in Coal Play (he was too wide and far away for that to even happen).  Big Brown was struggling home to catch the other in the final strides.  Yes, it was a gutsy win, but a win with Coal Play tiring in the stretch.  Here’s a proper definition of challenge in this sense to help clear things up:  b:  to call out to duel or combat;  c:  to invite into competition <he challenged his brother to a tennis match> (from Meriam-Webster.com).  In a way, no other horse has done what the definition says or Big Brown didn’t come up beside Coal Play to look him in the eye, another way of ducking from a real fight.  And Big Brown has been asked, but the last two times he has been asked for his run, he seemed to loaf and be as push button as he used to be.  What would one think if Coal Play still kept rolling it on at the speed he was dishing out?  Does one think Big Brown, the Kentucky Derby and Preakness hero, might have won?  With the way he was struggling down the homestretch, I don’t think so.  But that’s a big “IF” factor for me…

» He looked amazing in the paddock and the post parade, and that should have contributed to an anticipated trouncing of the field, yet that didn’t produce anything…

Now, before anyone starts to throw angry words towards me, all of the aforementioned words above are what I could observe and think.  There could be other reasons behind Big Brown’s lack luster performance.  In fact, I’m very much anticipating him to do even better in his next time on the track (with hopefully better competition). I really would love to see him actually show his heart out when he does actually challenge or when another worthy competitor of beating him does look at him straight in the eye, and I would love to see Big Brown dig down and show the real champion that he is.

As of right now, things just don’t look good for him.  And I’m an EXTREMELY worried.  Perhaps his confidence is really making him plummet?  He just seemed entirely off in the Haskell, despite the fact that he won.  It was a very uncharacteristic performance, and I hope he’ll be the champion that he once was and brush aside all kinds of trials and tribulations to come.

Remember, the year isn’t ending quite yet, and he still has a chance to continue to redeem himself, if there aren’t any bad problems (feet, etc.) down the road.

Maggie 05 Aug 2008 1:57 PM

Michelle: A racehorse is on his left lead only going into the turn.They have to switch for balance other wise they will be on the outside fence. As they come out of the turn and straighten out they will switch back to the right. Front side or backside they are in their right lead.Some horses can move up on the turn on their left lead meaning they can gain ground. Those kind can "cut the corner". Some cannot, these type usally are off the rail by one or two.A smart rider knows this and won't put his horse in a postion whereby he's scrambling.

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 1:59 PM

Ruffian518, BB has always had an affinity for the cameras.  Watch him before and after every race - he's a ham, and he knows exactly when a camera is trained on him.  Even after the Belmont, when they were walking him around in the shedrow,trying to figure out what was wrong, every time BB got to the row where the door - and all the cameras - was, he stopped to pose.  In fact, they said that they had to actually PUSH him away from the door so he'd stop posing and walk so they could check him out.  I don't think that this in any way is a detriment to him.  It makes him that much more enjoyable to watch.

In an earlier interview right before the Haskell on Sun., they were talking to someone from BB's camp in front of the stable, and BB had his head out the door, mugging behind his trainer or whoever.  They were talking about the race and what it means for BB.  I don't remember the guy's exact answers, but BB would nod his head,like he agreed (in seemingly appropriate places where he *should* be agreeing) and for another answer, Brown was shaking his head "no", like that wasn't how HE felt about it. Like he knew they were talking about HIM and he wanted to tell it HIS way. It was HYSTERICAL!  That's why I totally ADORE that horse!  He's good lookin',intelligent,fast,and sweet.  And he knows it!

One thing I noticed about the horses and the weight they carried - all the horses were carrying 118 lb. jockeys.... Brown was carrying KD's 122.... does that extra 4 lbs. make any kind of difference in Brown's performance??

INNIE 05 Aug 2008 2:07 PM

More really intersting comments. I am a nurse and know a little bit about steroids. Winstrol has the effect of making a horse feel better, especially if they have nagging little issues that can effect performance. TRAINERS GIVE THIS DRUG FOR A REASON FOLKS. It is a performance enhancing drug, even though it doesn't act like anabolics in humans. Coming off of the Winstrol had to effect how he felt in some respects. However, the horse I saw at the Belmont wanted to run. I still wonder what would have happened if he had not been pulled up. I am convinced Kent Desormeau pulled him up because he really thought there was something wrong-even though there was nothing horribly wrong. He was just a different horse-not the same super horse we saw in the previous races. So whether Brownie would have won the Belmont is unknown (probably not), but I guarantee you, he wouldn't have finished last. I also agree with the recent poster who said if you look at the last two races he had won before the Belmont, he did it from way outside and it had the effect of running a race and a half, which is extremely tiring for ANY horse. Remember most of the horses running the Belmont, if not all, were still on Winstrol. I absolutely do not blame Kent Desromeau for anything. He cared enough about the horse to do what he thought was in Brownie's best interest. That is more important than any Triple Crown. In short, he cared about the horse more than the win. I really respect that and he has nothing to apologize for.

Brownie is still a wonderful horse (I am not using the word great because people automatically think I mean great as in Secretariat, Man O'War). As someone said so well, if he wasn't a wonderful horse, there would be alot of them out there and there aren't.

Obviously his feet are a problem when you have to put a horse in special shoes, which only tells me again what a wonderful horse Brownies really is. It is amazing to me the horse has done what he has done considering the fact that his feet are what I call "gene deficient."

The fact that trainers don't read blogs is irrelevant here. Yes, they are the experts and I am sure they have very little time to read what people who aren't in the business are saying. But we do have brains and many people who are posting here have been watching racing for years and are what I call "Connoiseurs of the Sport." Many of the observations made on this blog are excellent and very relevant. Some of us DO have quite a bit of experience with horses on the ground (not me however).

As for Rick Dutrow-he is what I call "guileless." What comes up comes out and he is cluless as to how it may sound to the rest of the world. He is not a bad person. He loves his horses and takes good care of them. He DOES what is in their best interest. He brags about them because in some ways they are like his kids. He always does his best for whoever he is working for. He has turned his life around and I truly respect that. It isn't easy to have been where he has been and then come back so spectacularly. So please people be kind. Kindness is a very underrated quality.

Curlin is a magnificent horse and I have a TON of repsect for him. I wouldn't want to run a horse against him ever. However, if you put both horses at their peak running against each other, I would not want to predict a winner, Beyer figures or not. Their respective owners are just "trash talking" and I think it's great that they love their horses so much. It doesn't offend me at all. It makes the sport more colorful.

Thank you JShandler for a great blog. I have learned alot. The title of your article was GREAT.

Paula Higgins 05 Aug 2008 2:49 PM

I think we all became spoiled by his victories in the Derby and the Preakness. We also yearn for a super horse and hope that Big Brown is it.

tidewaterhorse 05 Aug 2008 2:50 PM

I have owned and raced horses on the major east coast circuits.Most if not all of the major outfits have their horses on a heavy regiment of steroids.A big concern of my trainer and vet was the effect on their mind and how they respond when it is discontinued.The racetrack term "melt" is used for good reason. Also, I tip my hat to Big Brown gutting out a hard fought victory.He showed a great deal of courage while overcoming some sort of physical ailment.

In regards to a future rider for BB,I think Javier Castillano would fit him to a tee.He is great with horse that like to run on or near the lead.

MikeM 05 Aug 2008 3:05 PM

I see that Curlin is running in the Woodward next.  Is there any reason Big Brown couldn't run in that race as well?  With both horses running on a dirt track, wouldn't that settle who was the best male horse this year?  Too bad Zenyatta won't be shipped east for the Woodward!

DJ 05 Aug 2008 3:06 PM

A couple of comments about Curlin comments:

Although Curlin may not have beaten much in Dubai (think this is why it was a record margin?), he did run the 3rd fastest DWC.  He was a tick off Invasor's time (last year so probably relevant), and Invasor was pressed to the wire by Premium Tap.  Curlin coasted in hand and if pressed, would have easily been a faster time (than Invasor).

Curlin had done quite a bit by the time he got to the Haskell.  He ran a hard 3rd in the Derby, when he was tangled in the pack for most of the race.  BB (like Street Sense) had a "perfect" trip.  Although BB covered more ground than SS!  (Although hardly a quarter or half mile more).  Curlin equealed the Preakness record beating Street Sense.  BB?  Curlin and Rags to Riches took it to the wire in the Belmont, running the last quarter in 24 seconds.  That's not too shabby for a 1 1/2 mile race.  BB?

Curlin ran clean in Dubai (it wasn't an option).  He's been clean ever since according to owner/trainer.

Big Brown ran a good race in the Haskell.  This reminds me a little of the talk around Zenyetta before the Hirsch.  Tiz's Sis had pressed her hard in a couple of races (although Z still won) and the doubters started queing up.  She certainly silenced them in a big way in the Hirsch.  Her owners said she had run "C" races in the previous close finishes, but this was an "A" race.  Horses are not machines.  If BB can do so well on what may well be a "B" or "C" effort, well he's a darn good horse.  Time will tell.

Your horse racing fans are a fickle lot!

As to the Rags to Riches/Curlin slam, someone needs to introduce Mr. Dutrow to Zenyetta!

KatintheHat 05 Aug 2008 3:18 PM

In reading some comments, I have 3 of my own:

<>Dutrow ran his mouth after the Haskell about how Curlin has not accomplished what BigBrown has.  Well, Curlin camp has announced they're running in the Woodward which is 27 days after Haskell.  Mr. Dutrow, i beg you, go to saratoga on 8/30 and race Curlin if BB is so far superior!!  It would be great for racing and I have a feeling that the result would shut you and Iavarone up pretty quick.

<>If BB doesn't race past this year, he'll never be considered an all-time great.  To attain that status, you have to race more than 15 months...longevity stamps an all-time great.  

<>Does anyone lend creedence to the theory that maybe BB looked more ordinary in Haskell due to a change in Dutrow's medication (legal or otherwise) regiment?

VERN in NJ 05 Aug 2008 3:54 PM

Nice come back Mr Jackson to Dutrow's trash talk. I'm looking forward to the reining Horse of the Year running at Saratoga. Anybody want to buy me a plane ticket to New York for the 30th?

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 3:58 PM

Keep in mind, this is just BB's eighth CAREER start.   He is just learning how to race (now that he is about to be retired).

Also, he ran a better Haskell than Curlin (3rd place) did.  But Curlin benefitted from that race, so will BB.  I hope Dutrow has the guts to run him against Curlin in the Woodward.

ace 05 Aug 2008 4:12 PM

DJ: I agree with you. The Woodward is a perfect spot for BB to meet Curlin. It gives him 4 weeks. It's at Saratoga. It makes sense. Iavarone has already said he is looking for a turf race for BB in mid-September, so it won't happen. But for anyone suggesting Curlin is ducking BB, this puts an end to that. BB could easily go to the Woodward for a showdown, if the connections wanted him to.

jshandler 05 Aug 2008 4:21 PM

Katsan: I started blogging on here cause I like to talk to people I don't know and because I liked Jason and Adam's columns. I still do like this blog although I get hot and wreck once and awhile.I'm an ex trainer AND owner so I can't blame anyone but me for any bad calls I've made in the past. Saying that, my opinion is still mine and as I have said more than once I stand by anything that comes out of my mouth and gets typed in here. Hey it's still fun to read everything and keeps me from doing the housework!

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 4:23 PM

Now that Curlin has made public that he is running in the Woodward next, wouldn't it be a sporting gesture for IEAH Stables to enter Big Brown there?  Big mouth Dutrow would have four weeks to prepare his horse for the race.  Or, is it the usual substanceless bluster deriding Curlin while Big Brown's connections do all they can to avoid the very matchup they pretend to be eager to commence?

They are like the loudmouth kid who wins a gold glove qualifier, then haughtily announce that the heavyweight champ is ducking them.  The time is now, put up or shut up.  Where's the public outcry for such a race?  Big Brown would have twice as long between his last race and the Woodward as he had between the Derby and Preakness, he would have a distance that suits him more favorably than it does Curlin, he would get weight, and the race would take place at one of the hallowed sites of racing.  C'mon IEAH/Dutrow, put your money where your mouth is!

jimchait 05 Aug 2008 4:37 PM

Paula,

Please don't go down that road again. We've had doctors, veterinarians, pharmacologists pharmacists (to me the latter two are the real experts on medication)on here discussing Winstrol. Not to mention a vet from the CHRB who discussed it in Jason's Q&A. As far as Richard Dutrow Jr being 'guileless' the definition of that is naive and trusting: open and honest and not expecting others to behave differently. That is not Rick Dutrow, otherwise why wasn't he honest with his owners who embarassed themselves when he witheld information and only apologized to save his neck? He doesn't merit kindness, he doesn't show much himself ask the trainers like John Servis and David Carroll. Or go back and read Larry Jones Q&A that Jason did such a great job with. There was a trainer on here who knew Dutrow personally and gave his opinion on the guy. I think this is the same trainer that Wanda is calling on who really knew the game as an admitted long time old timer. Wanda and Monica I think became friendly with him on TC Chat, hey ladies good to see your comments again. I swore off but a couple months gave me a calmer view. We're going to the Saratoga Sale again tonight I think, or maybe just enjoy some night life.

Bradgm 05 Aug 2008 4:40 PM

moneymaker & Bradgm

I never said in any way shape or form that I was "involved in racing." I've stated many times on here that I am an ordinary fan. I didn't bring up the winstrol, I copied another post and commented on it. I never said ALL racing needs is caring fans. I'm well aware that it takes owners with money, but if fans don't show up.... And the "our border" I was talking about was the United States border, not each and every states border. PP hasn't raced anywhere but New Mexico. Other than being a fan and lover of this sport, my only other "involvement" as you put it is a few people I know, as most of you do, and I'm a member of the NTRA Horseplayers Task Force. The owner of which is the NTRA. That's it, so go pick on someone else but make sure you read the posts correctly first.

normajean81258 05 Aug 2008 4:48 PM

Wanda, I knew from reading this for a long time that you were involved in racing and also the Calgary Stampede. I was trying to answer as a racehorse trainer or what my trainer (family guy) said. I know we all used to listen to a certain one on here, great stories and opinions, real oldtimer and I just gave our take on it about noticing BB lugging out and thinking something is wrong physically without reiterating it again.

katsan 05 Aug 2008 4:51 PM

HEY BROWNFAN.............I LOVE PEPPERS PRIDE and have been pestering B-H reporters to find what's happening.......then Ruidoso is underwater and the horses need scuba tanks, but I have every faith she'll do the deed eventually! No kidding.....for what seemed like ages there was NO mention of her anywhere, then as her 17th approached we began to see more articles about her and what she was trying to do. So as Brownfan and I giggle all over the place, PP will step up to the plate and try her best AGAIN. Go Big Girl....you really do have fans everywhere, and I would LOVE to see her get #17!

Cheers...

needler in Virginia 05 Aug 2008 5:06 PM

normajean, You said the US BORDER? Seriously??? I'm from New Mexico and I do believe we are in the US, but let me check my tax return. I know Joel trainer of Pepper, quite well, he and his wife Theresa are both from the US errr New Mexico, If you are a fan you should read up on it a little better and you did act like you know for a fact that all racetrackers read these comments intimating you are one of us and that they are dying to comment, taping their hands down to avoid it (quote). My own personal racetracker is threatening to tie my hands to the horse walker if he sees me on the computer and thinks I'm quoting him on here and it's been said over and over that few of us if any read let alone comment. Those that do read, read Jason's, Steve's etc excellent stories and forego the comments. I being a renegade just seem to have gotten caught up in it and it seems like innocent fun.

katsan 05 Aug 2008 5:22 PM

I still remember Sunday Silence getting nailed in deep stretch by Prized in the Swaps. Sunday Silence nearly stopped as the 1/5 favorite. This was his first start after the Belmont.  Prized went on to win the Breeder's Cup Turf as a 3-Year Old.  Perhaps Coal Play will go on to do the same.  

Householder 05 Aug 2008 5:43 PM

Katsan and Bradgm,sorry I came across a little strong. I'm just tired of the same old same old lets put it to rest like you guys are saying. On the up side lets start a movement,Big Brown hooking Curlin.Is there a web site a guy can go to talk these guys into running him in the Woodward? WE WANT BIG BROWN IN THE WOODWARD!!!!

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 5:45 PM

OK Dutrow, here's your chance to prove that BB is "way better" than Curlin. Put that sucker on the bus and take the 3 1/2 hour trip to Saratoga before 8/30. Enter BB in the Woodward. Or, will you do what I expect you will do, send BB to the Pennsylvania Derby instead where you can beat another field of allowance horses. Your all talk, Dutrow. But we all knew that already.

And when Curlin then goes in the Jockey Club Gold Cup on September 27th...oh that's right, you said BB won't run at Belmont again. Afraid the "great" BB will quit again an the top of the Belmont stretch, Rich?

As a Saratogian, I can tell you how happy we are that Curlin will be racing here. The greatest racing meet in the world deserves to see the best horse on the planet. Thank you Jess Jackson! And you say you may race him one last year as a 5 yr old? Try to become a champ on grass? Postpone all that breeding money for one more year? You are a true sportsman and a credit to the sport we love, Mr. Jackson.  

Saratoga AJ 05 Aug 2008 5:55 PM

This is a one off for me,at a friends request so here goes.

Lugging out like that could be a bad habit if done all the time and the animal would have to be broke from it.Some are so bad the jock needs to use the whip on the shoulder to save their life  and keep from ducking into the gap sometimes.  If it seems to be recent it’s pretty certain it’s an indicator of  an underlying issue like soreness, pain, agitation whatever.

BB’s quarter crack is on the left inside front foot and I didn’t pay too close of attention at his lead switch, was mostly watching Coal Play and how much Kent got into BB.In US racing a horse is on the right lead in the straightaways, the left lead going around the turns. A horse will get real tired if it stays on one lead for too long, that‘s the reason you teach it to switch.  The lead switch also seems to give them a little boost, like the jets kicking in. If a horse isn’t switching like they normally do, a little late or early or too often that change could mean something may be wrong with him.

BB's effort was okay but consider the fact that  he was all out against a colt who is still eligible for a Non winners of two ’other than’ it wasn‘t that great. Seems like a lot of big purses going to small fields of okay horses, some of the Allowance and GII and GIII‘s seem tougher, that may be just my opinion.  

Commentator’s run was an impressive win up here, not sure he’ll replicate it but loved Nick‘s comment about the older you get the better and the gelding being the George Foreman of racing. If that‘s really true then guys like, Allen, Wayne, and others will be at the top of the leader board in no time.

I didn’t think Iavarone looked especially pleased or confident, more like relieved yet concerned. Kent was not only in an all out drive on the track his big sell to the camera was all out as well. I’m surprised there aren’t more bleeding hearts outraged at him wailing on that colt like he did.  Another thing, if I was interested enough I’d go back and look at the films to see if he’s always run with his head cocked the way it was on Sunday. But considering Ricky being Ricky I just don’t really care much any more. To call out someone else after an all out effort against a group like that ??????? He didn’t say they would be better once the colt got back full strength after a layoff he said BB was better right then and there. I think there’s a few better than him right now.  

The steroid issue is only a moot point if it’s like they said and it had no real effect on BB to begin with. A few of us weren’t sure the colt would run again, now I really have my doubts., I’ve been proven wrong before but other than winning a big purse do you want to keep running the colt and risk the bucks lost from the breeding. Although who knows about the market with the way it is now, even though Saratoga day 1 had a median and average increase the buy backs increased and 15-16 less sold compared to last year. A lot of us won't post on things like this because we're kind of a closed off group, Dutrow feels it's fine so I guess turnabouts fair play.

WhatamIdoing 05 Aug 2008 6:42 PM

Well it took me awhile to read through all the comments now its time to add mine to the mix and I can handle all the rocks boo's and hisses I shall gather from my commentsNow I'm 73 years old and been around running horse all my adult life and I support 9 retired "Lawn mower" here on my placeand they all work for a liven as we work cattle with them.So I feel Ive been around long enough to speak and I lived through the Great Cigar tearing down a Stall next to my five any way. Here it comes folks. . .. I think there is something WRONG wif Big Brown. . And Ive Tivoed that race a dozen times. . .He did not run like he did in his previous races and I have every one on Tivo Now to me wif his "lugging"out, his "lead "switching" or lack of the way he was holding his head told me alot. .We know horses can't talk (LOL)but they will talk to you IF you observe there \actions oh they will tell you almost everything and watching him run on guts and heart alone I could almost hear him say "Ohcrap im hurting "and its getting worse just let me get through this. Now yo"ll can laugh your heads reading this but I bet any body who has worked "Shed Row" know what I'm talking about. . .Now back in my day we didnt have all the full service Veterinary care that is out there today. . .If I owned this Horse or if I was a conditioner of this Horse Id load him on a truck and take him over to "BOLTONS" or one like that and I wouldnt want that horse back till it had a FULL PHYSICAL don't matter how long it takes or how much it cost Cause to me theres something Wrong with this Horses left side whither its in the Ankle or the knee or in his Nerves there is something not right and he's telling you this when he runs and I don't give a crap what Dutrow tells you or his owners. .Ive talked to other trainers Big and Little and they'll look at you and grin shake there head and as an Aside will tell your the same thing and just shrug there shoulders. . .I just don't want to see a fine Horse like this worth millions in the Breeding Shed (well maybe as we don't know what he can produce LOL)reduce to .46cent a lbs because somebody didnt care, Ive talked to several Vets that are up there Vetting Horses at the currant sale, and its funny cause they seem to think the same thing. . .Pitiful just plane pitiful. . .

 

Scrapiron 05 Aug 2008 6:54 PM

Bradgm, I think you have more "calming down" to do (your words not mine). As for steroids, I have been on them. Have you? I am a nurse and we are as knowledgable as any M.D. and pharmacist regarding steroids. It is part of our training too. Pharmacists dispense them and then we dispense them to the patient in a hospital setting. We have to know what we are giving the patient in terms of action, side effects, interactions etc. So please don't make comparisons about professions you clearly know nothing about. Again, the trainers give them for a reason. Perhaps you can share with us what that reason might be if you disagree that its to improve their sense of well-being, physically and mentally, and performance.

Secondly, guileless does mean  NAIVE. Interestingly, I have corresponded with a horse racing person/columnist (who I will leave nameless) and he said that is exactly what Rick Dutrow is like in his public comments-guileless. I use this in the sense that he does not understand that his comments are offensive to some people-apparently you for starters. His excitement over his horse has resulted in some comments that have resembled bragging. So what? No one died as a result.He hasn't challenged anyone to a duel. He was like an exuberant kid who was doing really well in the biggest races of his life. He was thrilled with the response Big Brown got from the Haskell crowd and said so. It made him very happy, and I for one, was very happy for him. I personally do not care one iota what someone else "who knows him" thinks about him. As for his relationship with Mike Ivarone and his drug suspension, that is between them and if I were Mike Ivarone I would never have discussed a business relationship and its issues in the media. The number of trainers who have had suspension issues over drug use in horse racing are numerous. This is not unique to Rick. It will be ancient history within another year once steroids are banned. Anyone can make negative comments about another human being. Talk is really cheap, especially when you are running someone down. Rick Dutrow takes good care of his horses. He is not axe murderer in his personal life. He is clearly trying to be careful regarding what he says to the mdeia. I respect how he has turned his life around. I am hopeful that he will be more circumspect in his public comments so he won't have to take flak from people like yourself.  That's it for me about Rick Dutrow.

"Kindness," lets see, did you look that up in the dictionary too? I have no axe to grind with you, but respectful conversation is a two way street.

Paula Higgins 05 Aug 2008 7:08 PM

Wow Maggie that has to be the longest blog i've ever tried to read, my mind started to drift thinking you were going to tell me to take out the trash. Please keep it short so the men in here can pay attention.

Clay 05 Aug 2008 7:08 PM

"Curlin couldn't win the Derby, we could," Dutrow said. "Curlin couldn't win [the Haskell], we could. Curlin got beat [by] a filly. We haven't. Our horse is undefeated on the grass. Curlin isn't. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."

I thought Dutrow was supposed to be clean nowadays?  This guy continues to amaze me.  Put Big Brown in last year's 3 yo crop and he doesn't do as well as Curlin did.  Put Curlin in this year's 3 yo crop and he stands a better chance at a Triple Crown than Big Brown did.  How soon we forget Big Brown's Belmont flop. Curlin has never finished last in a race, don't forget that one Dicky.  On the turf, it would be a close race, I'll give them that.  On the dirt, it wouldn't even be a contest, Curlin wins by 5 lengths easy.  On synthetic, I don't really care because I hate that anyway, but I say Curlin still wins by open lengths.  I miss draynay!

Curlin 05 Aug 2008 7:23 PM

All this talk about how BB struggled in the Haskell  is hogwash.  The BB supporters are offering excuses and the critics are giving him a hard time for not looking to be in total control as he was in other wins.

The fact is that the DRF gave him a 107 Beyer.  That's what he's been running ever since the Florida Derby: 106-109 (Preakness was very slow --100-- and forget the Belmont).  He is what he is.  Another horse finally ran a good race so he didn't look as impressive, but there's NOTHING wrong with him.  Apparently, that's about as fast as he can go right now.

Nothing to be ashamed of, but it's not superhorse speed either.

RY999 05 Aug 2008 8:05 PM

Clay: you crack me up!

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 8:09 PM

O.k. everyone here's something to consider. Rick Dutrow admits to giving his horses too much of a certain drug. Probably a barn issue/mistake. Marion Jones deliberately takes major illegal anabolics and then lies to the Feds, the media, her family and her fans FOR YEARS, while accepting Olympic Gold Medals. There is a huge difference. One is getting a slap on the hand/suspension and the other is going to prison for a few years. So let's keep this in perspective. Rick Dutrow is known as a very competent trainer for good reason.

Curlin is a great horse. I would not want to race against him now on the dirt.

Paula Higgins 05 Aug 2008 8:45 PM

I am an expert.

My blogging credentials: my neigbor's brother-in-law works with a friend of a top trainer's gardener. Therefore, my expertise trumps 99.9% of you. ;>)

1. The word "great" has no place on this blog, unless referring to horses already in the HOF. That body reigns above Eclipse winners (including HOY), since the best horse of a poor class most probably will not be rewarded with entry.

2. Big Brown is no better a race horse than what comes around each year. Every year, one or more sophomore colts (or fillies) is quite superior to its age class, however rich or lacking in quality that group may be.

A Salt 05 Aug 2008 9:30 PM

Pat, with all due respects, you may be the only person on the planet who believes that Curlin's connections are ducking Big Brown. If Dutrow wants a piece of Curlin, truck him up to Saratoga for the 8/30 Woodward. Or walk him over from his stable at Belmont and meet Curlin in the 9/27 Jockey Club Gold Cup. Curlin would even spot him 5 pounds in either race.

No, BB will try to beat some more allowance class 3yr olds in Philadelphia on Labor Day instead. End of the "ducking" discussion.

Saratoga AJ 05 Aug 2008 9:53 PM

Just want to say, "BRAVO" to Paula. You are one class lady, and a very race educated one as well.

Norma Jean

normajean81258 05 Aug 2008 10:19 PM

Paula,

My grandmother was a CFNP/Midwife, my Aunt is a retired CNP. My brother Is a RPH who went back to school after 30 years and got his PharmD.  Neither my grandmother nor my aunt would have been/be arrogant enough to proclaim that they knew/know as much about medication as someone who was educated in that field for 8 years did an internship and externship in that. They don't just dispense drugs they compound them and know all the side effects etc. My nurse relatives knew their stuff, it just wasn't medication, otherwise why are you not 'dispensing' and earning a Pharmacists salary, higher than any nurse that I've seen advertised at the hospital my aunt worked at. Also on the issue of drugs and horses and Marion Jones, Marion could choose whether she took the drugs the horses can't. I don't think you can defend Dutrow to the people who know him best, his colleagues. But then again you probably didn't read the trainer Whatamidoing or the one who used to post on here or you just don't care. I do, it's our livelihood. You didn't like someone saying someone knew more about drugs than you so why would we like someone who is an outsider saying they know more about racing than we do?

I'm starting to agree with the old ways of being elitist and cliquish to shut out the people who think they know what's going on.

katsan 05 Aug 2008 10:28 PM

Katsan:chill out. Take a deep breath I don't want you to get like I got months ago with DN. Just take it for what it is and move on.Hey Jason posted a new comment blog come on over!

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 10:45 PM

Well, I swore I wouldn't do this again, in fact took an oath on the threat of death, but I figure at my age it's inevitable so if Jason will allow, I'd like to address some of this. First sorry to my friend that I talked into coming on here, seems a RACE HORSE TRAINER was talking to hear his head rattle, despite requests for one to come on here and explain it all. That's the guy that told me I've said more on here when I posted before than he's heard me say in 30 years, ditto to him, he says even less. He tried to give an explanation in horseracing terms to explain what people were asking about. Scrapiron we’re of a like age but I’m still humming along and have a farm full of retirees, mares, foals, yearlings etc. and a few in the shedrow too  I understand that the colt has been examined with a fine tooth comb from what we‘ve heard anyway. I don’t know if it was at Rood and Riddle or New Bolton or who did it. I too think something is wrong with the colt and most of the race trackers on here agree. Probably a lot of others too, but won’t say so. I thought in the Belmont the was short on training like others did. Now, perhaps as someone said maybe he’s just not the colt we thought he was in the spring. Don’t jump all over me, it was said by someone that I think would actually know. I kind of think or maybe hope they go ahead and retire the colt. I didn’t like the way he had to be ridden all out to beat a colt that could be in a “Non Winner of 2 -other than” tomorrow. For those of you new to racing that means Coal Play has won a maiden and an Allowance race only.

Atthebarn2 05 Aug 2008 10:54 PM

Now part 2 in deference to Clay to break up my post. Lots pent up over a couple months and I’m risking my life to say it or my marriage at the least should make it worthwhile.

PAULA, I happened to get the chance to meet Brad and his buddy Rob who posts under a user ID, up here in Saratoga. He does know a lot about the medical professions, i was pretty amazed at his family and I encouraged him to let you know that when we met to go to the sale, they ended up not going, I don't see his post yet. What he was talking about was the very heated discussion that led to some other things being said that made a lot of folks pretty upset. He is a very kind young man and defended me frequently as did Monica and Miss Wanda (Hello ladies hope you are well, hope you did well at the Stampede Miss Wanda).  If you hadn’t just jumped on him you would realize you share the same point of view, but since you hadn’t read our feelings on the subject, YOU judged him like you accused him of judging others. He, myself and a bunch of others don’t believe in drugs used on horses and yes maybe we aren’t as successful but I can sleep at night. We were some of the ones battling people who thought it had no effect.  Also as discussed on there by a certain person, most of us have taken steroids at our ages or as athletes. A pain specialist came on and talked about corticosteroids, one guy even admitted to using Anabolic steroids, which Winstrol is, and injecting his body builder friend.

As for Ricky being naïve, ma’am nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure being a nurse you’ve had  drug users that  you’ve come into contact with and would you call them naïve? Ricky was self admittedly so deeply involved in the drug culture that no one ever thought he’d come out of it. His dad, Richard Sr refused to speak to him, not even from his death bed. I knew him, he was a wonderful horseman, Anthony is too  I don’t think he talks to Ricky either. Ricky is an excellent horseman as well, I didn‘t admire the way he walked away from the colt for a couple days, leaving him feeling deserted since he practically lived with the colt but he knows horses.  But many of us in racing are embarrassed by what he continues to say. He denigrates other trainers, horses and has little or no respect for his fellow man. The reason Mike from IEAH was brought up is, he brought up the subject himself, was going to fire Rick until someone stepped in and saved him. Meanwhile this whole soap opera is being played out in public on the heels of the tragic death of Larry’s filly, the Congressional hearings, the drug positive of Steve Asmussen (again) the decline in attendance and wagering and now the downturn of the yearling market at Keeneland. This may not be anything to you, but to us who live it every day it’s major. You criticized Brad for running down Rick without knowing him, you did that to Brad without knowing HIM, you are defending Rick without knowing him. You listened to a racing analyst who will believe pretty much whatever they have presented to them. I know one or three, who have definitely changed their opinions recently.  Like I said once before I’m all for second chances but not if the person is so disrespectful of his profession and the people he shares it with. Rick’s drug positive is #9 in as many years, plus he had a 5 year suspension for personal use yet when he received the latest suspension said he didn’t know what the big deal was and proceeded to attack a bunch of his fellow trainers and shift focus to them. A couple of them were pretty unhappy people. When he made his initial comments about the Belmont some defended Rick, some kind of laughed it off and some got madder than heck and threw some darts right back at him. He didn’t challenge any one to a duel but caused one trainer that he attacked to say Rick was in recovery and is a moron. Do you think this is the image we want to present when we’re already struggling? This latest deal, enough is enough. Would you like it if your fellow nurse got in trouble for stealing from the drug cart then said well Paula must be doing it too, she drives a new car. No you wouldn't like or respect that person yet you defend someone who is doing just that. As for Marion Jones, she could say yes or no, the horses can’t. Don't even get Jeanine Sahadi or Arthur Hancock started on that.

Atthebarn2 05 Aug 2008 11:29 PM

Hey Atthebarn2 really nice to hear from you. I'm very well thank you for asking, take care and don't be a stranger.

Wanda 05 Aug 2008 11:52 PM

ATTHEBARN2, thanks for your nice post. I really appreciate your courteousness since that can be in short supply with some posters. Some of your points are very good ones. I don't think Rick Dutrow is a saint. It's clear he is not. It isn't good that he had his 9th violation-true enough. But this is a guy who has struggled all of his adult life for one reason or another. I want to give him some credit for this horse's success. Personally, I think he loves horses. Do we REALLY know he never showed up to see BB for two days after the Belmont? Or is it hearsay? If it is true, that would bother me too, big time. I absolutely don't blame the horse for having steroids onboard. I blame the trainer. The point I was trying to make is that he owned up to it and didn't lie like Marion did-for years. There are degrees of culpability IMO. As far as his family situation is concerned, I think it is a great personal tragedy that he and his family have had this break-up. I have no idea what the particulars are. But I do know that issues like this are generally not one sided. I would bet money that this is very painful for Rick Dutrow too. I am sure his father was a fine person and from all accts. this was so. In any event, a family falling out is very sad and I can't speak to that since I have no clue as to what happened. I think he has tried to raise his daughter well, in less than great circumstances, and his love for her is obvious. I think that is wonderful.

Yes, I know the sport is suffering for alot of reasons. I think when horses breakdown it effects public opinion in a big way, at least for the short term. I also think the down side to the sport i.e. what happens to horses who don't race well, is another problem. The sport also needs a super star/triple crown winner and it hasn't had that in awhile.

I certainly appreciate all those in the sport who try to do the very best for their horses and the sport. They are the heroes to me. Maybe I have been talking across some of the posters and we are saying the same thing in some respects. Again, I appreciate your post-it was great.

Paula Higgins 06 Aug 2008 12:22 AM

It's time for Duck Duck Dutrow to either put up or shut up and stop ducking Curlin. First he passes up an opportunity to face him in the Man-O-War electing to run against a bunch of noboday 3 yr olds again and now he has the chance to face him in the Woodward and appears eager to duck him once more.

The racing world wants to see the matchup and on dirt so why is he going anywhere but the Woodward? This is probably the only chance left for these two to face off on the dirt and Duckie Dutrow is running as far away from it as he can. For months now there has been debate over who is the better animal on the dirt so let's get it on!! Maybe those unspectacular 106 Beyer Figs the Big Ole Browneye has been putting up are influincing Duckie's choices. Get off your high horse so to speak and bring your Browneye to saratoga!!!!

draynot 06 Aug 2008 8:47 AM

Give me a break SARATOGA AJ, and all others who would like to diminish Rags To Riches.  The Belmont did not "ruin" as you put it "poor" Rags to Riches.  You obviously didn't see her run in CA.  She would race wide the entire way, and then come storming down the stretch from the outside to win.  Just ask Garret Gomez who HE thought would win the Belmont, which horse HE was aching to be aboard.  I have never heard a jock speak in such glowing terms about a horse, especially GoGo who is usually pretty stoic.  In the Belmont, when I saw her poised on the outside, in her regular spot, turning for home I KNEW she would win.  She was never going to let Curlin pass her... NEVER!  And let's not forget about her pedigree, she was born to the distance, tailor made for the Belmont stakes.  Don't belittle her in order to expunge a huge negative from Curlin's record.  She could have been brought back to racing after her injury (and I do remember a fever caused her to miss some prior races), but her value as a broodmare superceded that.  And what's more, did you see what a wide trip she had all the way around in the belmont, and the way jocks were trying to push her out even wider?  That didn't bother her.  Nor did the fact that she stumbled badly out of the gate.  And how about that eyeball to eyeball staredown with the big colt in the final furlong that didn't phase her a bit.  Don't be disrespecting Rags, she was one awesome racehorse, and I'm sure will make one hell of a broodmare.  And she is so beautiful besides!  

Girl Power 06 Aug 2008 11:21 AM

I was at the Haskell this past weekend and Big Brown was never out of the race. However, Coal Play took off like a bullet and Desormeaux pulled BB back. Later, Desorm. had to gun his horse to catch up which is a lot harder for him. BB went wide and he began to whip the tar out of him to catch Coal Play. He struggled to pass him but he got the job done. BB dug in and his huge strides were eventually able to overcome the leader. He seems to be a horse of longer distances because his strides became longer at the top of the stretch and he appeared to be gaining momentum as he galloped out beautifully and did not appear as tired as the other horses. He walked back to the barn still full of himself.

Having been there to see this, I am more convinced than ever the Belmont was jockey error. He never once hit BB in the Belmont. He might have gotten beat but I think the horse would have put in a great race, nonetheless. BB deserved a shot. Maybe he did not have permission to whip him? Who knows? It bothers me when people keep second guessing BB. He showed grit and courage when he was getting beat and proved he is a champion. Champions don't always win with a flourish; they show heart when it counts most.

Ofelia 06 Aug 2008 11:33 AM

DDDDD: big browns haskell was over a second faster than the year before. which curlin diddnt even win

michelle 06 Aug 2008 11:43 AM

Scrapiron, thanks for defending Big Brown.  I too believe he is talking as all horses do. Unfortunately the humans in his camp are not listening.  Nor do they understand that he is. Prior to the Derby, his team was united in support of him.  He was a happy, relaxed horse with tons of self confidence. Remember, Kent described him as push button.  

Irrespective of Dutrow's personal limitations, he does know how to get a horse to a big race even one with quarter cracks who lugs out.  I truly believe BB's downfall started after the Derby for two reasons:  1) Dutrow fell apart from the media exposure. Initially it was wonderful, he was king.  The public wanted to hear more.  Every day, someone was doing interviews.    Digging deeper, the media reveals Dutrow's history, his poor relations with his family, the drug positives and suspensions, and whether he was to blame all rolled off his back.  His big mistake, coming after Eight Belles' breakdown, Dutrow's public admission that he uses winstrol.  2) His owner, Mike Iavaronne.  IEAH decides to take BB off of winstrol.  It was no longer about what is best for Big Brown and what effect the timing might have on him in the most important phase of his life; it's about dollars from potential investors.  The issue became even bigger than a Triple Crown winner and a stallion syndication.  All of a sudden, Dutrow has the potential to not only win the TC, but the life changing event of having an owner with a $100 million to buy him the  best horses in the world.  Furthermore, the owner was scrambling to put endorsement deals together quickly before the TC.  In the most critical period between the Preakness and the Belmont facing new hoof problems, missed training days, works and being unable to gallop at Belmont because of weather related track conditions, he takes BB out of training and flies him to Nike headquarters in Oregon where he is paraded on a stage like a circus animal in pursuit of an $18 million endorsement.  The owner appears to be making what should be the trainer's decisions regarding BB.       There is also the public muzzling of Dutrow and the threat of taking the horses after the clenbuterol positive.

Big Brown is on a runaway train.  I was really hoping he could win the TC in spite of his connections.  

His win in the Haskell demonstrated his guts.  I would love to see him win the rest of the year and the BC.  Unless Dutrow can mentally regroup and focus on BB, I don't see it happening.  Mike says he loves BB.  If that's true, I think he too should focus on what's best for BB; bury the hatchet with Dutrow and let him train the colt.  BB has enough courage to do the rest.

Sue 06 Aug 2008 11:44 AM

Paula,

I appreciate your post and we need all the fans we can get so thanks for being one. In this day and age as I once said, nearly all of us have someone in our lives similar to Ricky. Usually we give them chance after chance and finally have to make up our minds to fish or cut bait, that's what Richard Sr did, there were a lot of things involved in this, not just the drugs.  I'm not disclosing any deep dark secrets here. It's common knowledge, a lot disclosed by Ricky himself. Actually he is a very personable guy when he isn't sticking his foot in his mouth. A lot of us are angry with the guy for reinforcing all the negative opinions about racing. This isn't a kid we're talking about here, it's a guy who is 49 (yesterday). He is a funny, funloving guy who enjoys life. He admits that he parties with the best of them, without the drugs. He may be chasing his demons but a lot of folks are, it's sad when they aren't self inflicted,most of his are. I have no problems with the way he lives his life, I don't support him so do what you want. What I do take exception to is his constant belittling of his colleagues and thus the sport. Trash talking has no place in horse racing. A little bluster, bragging, challenging your opponent that's fine, a lot do it and as long as it's not overboard then okay. The nature of the sport and the public perception makes it different than other sports. We are all independent contractors so to speak and the public perceives that we use that as license for no holds barred. Drugging, race fixing, running unsound horses anything negative and that comes to the forefront,we all get painted in the same light. He says he's a big gambler,100 grand+, lots of folks said BB lost because of a fix, see what they'll say about us, anything goes even if it's a bald face lie. All I ask is that Rick just sit chilly. Stop the hate, the public remarks etc. There are a lot of little feuds, jealousies and stuff that go on in a community like racing, it's a competitive business. We compete for the clients, the horses, the purse money. Usually we don't air our dirty linen in public in the old days never. I know I'm on my soapbox but you might be able to imagine how hurtful it is when you work your whole life, sacrifice to do something you love that is by no means easy and then someone comes along and makes your industry the butt of jokes on national TV when we already have image problems. I keep hoping someone he respects will talk to him, someone like Bobby Frankel who he seems to respect. The one thing about Rick talking all the time is he usually tells on himself. He said he had to get away. No not heresay about not being at the barn. Also the little girl lived most of the time with his Mom from the time her mom was murdered until around Feb 08. If you really are interested in his story there's a detailed one in on the nydailynews,one of my clients told me it's in first person, and his Mom. I haven't read it already know too much.They said he's had 72 suspensions or fines in his career, I did caution them that the figure probably includes the real minor things like late to the paddock etc. Yes he deserves a second chance, he's gotten it but still continues to thumb his nose at all of us. Just asking how you would feel.

Atthebarn2 06 Aug 2008 1:01 PM

My opinion on Kd's ride in the Haskell.The horse broke sharp and he takes him back to avoid a speed duel on the front end.Why would you engage a front end runner out of the gate when your sitting on the best horse in the race? The horse will rate so you sit off the speed and take a run at him. The rider rode they way he was suppose to end of story.                  

Thank you WhatamIdoing,Scrapiron,Katsan,

Bradgm,Atthebarn2,MonicaV for your support and comments.              

I still don't get people saying Curlin's "ducking". How do you duck a horse that is running in straight 3yr old stakes? Curlin is not eligible to run in these races. Curlin is now pointed towards the Woodward and BB could and should go there to finally run against older horses.If this horse is going down the road to BC he better hook the handicap division now and see if he's got the right stuff.                            

Paula made a comment on Aug 05,about Dutrow's bad test. She said it could be a "barn issue/mistake. Okay Paula there's a thing called the trainers rule.Any horses that are under your name that get a bad test,YOU are responsible for not your help or any outside contamination. That's why you are  careful with any legal meds in your barn. You can't have needles etc in your barn or anywhere else, that's why the vet has to do any work in that regard.He has to be licenced to work on the backside and he has to log all meds.So I'm sorry but the chances of that being a mistake are pretty slim to none.

Wanda 06 Aug 2008 1:06 PM

Miss Wanda, good to hear from you. Very busy time of year and I was ruled off by the wife. Still read once in a while, knew BB would be lively. Thought Ricky was reformed, bout dropped my teeth (and they're my own) when I heard what he said. My trainer buddy came on at your request. Said it's like talking to the wall, he's a real quiet guy still in shock. Will post if I can but you have fun. Hope you have recovered from your job at the stampede. Take care.

Atthebarn2 06 Aug 2008 1:07 PM

Atthebarn2: your trainer buddy will get over it. It's like running second beat a nose then losing the horse. I'd better put by claim so people won't think I mean something else.              

Stampede was super and I met some classy rodeo people.It's like anything else in pro sports,the top ones are usally darn nice people.

Wanda 06 Aug 2008 1:30 PM

Sue, A bunch of current trainers said the same about BB not being right.The media loved Rick after the quiet, gentlemen of the past few years. Heard wishes for Baffert, Zito and Lukas  because they have qualities that bring excitement into it and are always good for a quote. That had been missing and the media knew Rick would liven it up. You guys saw Rick Derby time, we see him all the time, knew this was probably inevitable. He's a good horseman who can get horses ready, but that little shadow of doubt that always hangs over him is what makes race trackers skeptical. His big mouth is what makes most of us cringe. Even salt of the earth, old timers and the high profile guys alike. His history casts aspersions on everything not even his personal history but his drug positives. The owners aren't paragons either but I won't talk about them I don't know them, except to say this is a business. The threat to Rick wasn't because of the positive, it was because he made his owner look like an a** making a drug free policy public when Rick knew this positive was impending. After the Belmont some of the guys who've been there many times said the horse was undertrained, Rick had the perfect excuse and the most likely, he thumbed his nose at it. Owners have the right to be involved in picking the jockey, the races etc or they can just let the trainer do everything but there's been many owners naming jocks etc for years it's them spending the big bucks. It's not like in the old days when you treated em like mushrooms (keep em in the dark and feed em manure)It is really expensive nowadays, it may be a hobby for a lot, but groups like IEAH, it's a business. There's been remarks about the connections from day one,nothing new. Most of us took the high road, after it kept up and Rick got worse, the road got lower. A good guy Larry Jones said on here he didn't want BB to win, too much talk, negativity. Endorsemnts? See Rick's hat on Belmont day? IEAH has said they're trying to get enough to launch an even bigger racing group, they admit it. Rick regroup and stop talking, hasn't happened so far. IEAH has some nice trainers, maybe one of them can keep BB together til BC.

P.S. Wanda, I believe you were the one who loved the black or near black horses? Should've seen the Storm Cat at Saratoga that the Magnier son bought, boy what a beauty. There might be a picture on here, thought I saw one. Your posts right on.

Atthebarn2 06 Aug 2008 1:52 PM

Wanda, I was happy to see Atthebarn back and in fine form. My baby sister is a rodeo girl so is her husband, a cousin and a nephew. Love to watch them. She chose the rodeo, I chose the racetrack the others chose the dull life. Pharmacist, contractor etc.

katsan 06 Aug 2008 2:02 PM

I'll keep it short and sweet this time. Amen Maggie.

the wiz 06 Aug 2008 2:25 PM

Wanda, As for my buddy, he looked like he'd been tazered. He's a lot younger than me and he gets along better with the horses than the people. I know what you're talking about, not sure he's had to face that. There's a picture of the Storm Cat colt on here. Looks just like him, seemed pretty calm at the sale.

Atthebarn2 06 Aug 2008 2:31 PM

Girl Power,

Rags would have smoked this years Derby winner if they had ever met. She was an amazing talent. I'm sure the boys out in the pasture are drooling when they check out her muscular hindquarters. Can't wait till she gets to work and produces another generation of runners.

slyder inn 06 Aug 2008 2:31 PM

Atthebarn2 yep saw the picture,looks like a Storm Cat alright.Did you buy anything? I see the only two Harlen's Holiday went for 270 and 375'G. He's my fav. Loved him as a racehorse and now a sire.                      

I tell you how bad that feels like going a round or two with a pro fighter that's punching you in the stomach! It happened to me a couple of times and boy the diff between the winner's purse and second can pay alot of feed bills.

I see BB's connections are saying no Woodward so I guess his feet are bothering him.Why else would you go to grass? Somebody else made the comment about how they don't run these goods ones against each other like 20 years ago . I agree with that one.Everybodys trying to make the resume perfect for the breeding shed instead of doing the sporting thing and hooking them as tough as they can to see once and for whose the best. That's what the average fan is missing the clash of the titans as it were.

Wanda 06 Aug 2008 3:21 PM

What everyone has learned is that Big Brown was all out to catch a sprinter and his connections want nothing to do with facing Curlin and I don't blame them.  From what I saw Sunday,  there is no way Big Brown will ever beat Curlin. Big Brown had to give everything he had to catch a sprinter at a mile and an eigth.  His best races are definitely behind him and the rest of the 3 year old crop is catching up to him.  Same thing last year with Street Sense,  he had to lay his body down to catch Grasshopper in the Travers,  the Haskell was no different. Big Brown matured at the right time and now he's leveling out. If he goes to the turf he may or may not be good enough to defeat the best turf runners in the world,  but I doubt it. I understand he's undefeated on the turf,  BUT he hasn't faced anybody significant on the turf yet so nobody really knows how good he'll be until it happens.  I doubt he's good enough to defeat the best European turf runners in the Breeder's Cup Turf, and I further doubt that he can do it in the mile.  I think they should run him in the sprint,  its his best shot.

FormerFan 06 Aug 2008 3:22 PM

What did we learn from the Haskell? We learned BB beat a maiden/allowance winner in an all out drive. We learned he won't run in the Woodward but in a specially created turf race(owners hoping) they say they'll be at the BC, we'll see. We learned Rick is still pickin and grinnin and blabbing. What have I learned on this blog? People ask for trainers or racetrackers to speak. They get them, a rarity and then ignore them to listen to themselves talk. Loved AJ Salt, how right you are about who thinks they're an expert then fail to read them. I like to read the trainers and other race horse people who come on here. Atthebarn, Wanda, Katsan and the poor guy Whatamidoing, who if you actually read him really gave some technical insight. Atthebarn, like Wanda and Monica said a long time ago, wouldn't it be cool to sit and talk to him. Wanda, who sounds like an interesting lady. Of course Jason, love his stuff and he's usually pretty much on target. Anyway fun to read all this stuff

JordanA 06 Aug 2008 4:22 PM

You know what's really weird? Look at the win photo again,they both are caught almost in the same stride at the wire. I looked at old win pics of mine and can't see one that has both horses with their legs in the exact same postion.

Wanda 06 Aug 2008 4:27 PM

Wanda, now I'm curious I pulled out about 15 of ours, you're right. I have a bunch more to go through. will ask my Mom to look at the ones she has, may take a while. I have one I like best we owned him, the only place you can see the rest of the field is in the wide shot they put at the top. He won by 20 lengths, I was a young girl but remember it like yesterday, how I loved that hard trying gelding. Do you have any DH photos, that might show, I'll look for those, not too many. Saw that Storm Cat yearling, wow he looks so much like him.  Thanks JordanA.

For someone who mentioned Pepper and Ruidoso being underwater. More rain. We have a farm up by Albuquerque, rain on all the hay on our place and everyone else. Monsoon season here in July and early August, in the desert.

katsan 06 Aug 2008 5:25 PM

Hey JordanA your a homey now with that compliment! Wouldn't that be something if we could all sit around and shoot the breeze. Man I could listen to all you guys all day and I know Jason's got some good betting stories.

Wanda 06 Aug 2008 5:54 PM

Wanda, I'm so honored that you think that! Wow I'm sitting here feeling sorry for myself, I'm the wounded member of the group, broke my ankle and leg. I read you when you wrote about your mud poultice and some other cool things thought about trying it on me. I get to talk to some cool trainers here. I've gotten to talk to some back that direction, like Lukas(and Wayne was out here for many years), Carl and Mott a few others too. Actually know someone who knows Lukas well, he's a pretty interesting guy, tons of stories, may be because of the friend. I also saw your comment about the Winning Colors filly, she just never replicated herself on the track, was hoping this would be the one but I'm not sure.

That Storm Cat colt, wow, if I only had 2 mil laying around.

JordanA 06 Aug 2008 10:12 PM

ATTHEBARN2 thanks again for taking the time to respond. Yes, I love the horses and I feel guilty about it at the same time because I worry that one of them will breakdown. I followed Barbaro's progress daily and when they had to put him down, despite everyone's valiant efforts to save him, it was heartbreaking to me. I think 99% of the people in horse racing really care about their horses and do their level best to make sure they are in good shape prior to a race.

I am worried about BB. I think there is something wrong with him, even though I have no clue what it is. I keep looking at his really gutsy Haskell race on Youtube and I sense there is something not right. Frankly, I wish they would just retire him now. Curlin would blow him out of the water if they had a match race.

I know Rick Dutrow has a really big mouth. I know he has issues. But I think he loves his horses. I have been reading horse racing blogs all over the place and very few people have a good word to say about him. I hope over time he can regain some goodwill in the racing community for his own sake and for the sake of his professional career. But clearly he will have to earn it.

I think the vast majority of the trainers and all the people who work with the horses are good people. I know the sport is trying to maintain a clean image and get people to the parks. I hope that happens. I have to watch it on the horse racing channel since there are no parks near me. But I love to watch the horses run. It certainly gets in your blood. I have two friends who actually own horses and they hate horse racing-they feel it is too hard on the horses. So my husband watches it with me and I read the blogs and correspond with the sportswriters. That will have to do I think. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Paula Higgins 06 Aug 2008 11:12 PM

Paula,

I have a friend that has an interesting response to people who say things about horse racing, not unique to him I've heard it said by others: "All the people who love horses but think racing is too hard on them would have a lot less horses to love. Does anyone really think we'd have many being bred at $50,000-500,000 just to watch them run in the field with the wind in their face? Sure we might have horses but not these beautifully bred creatures. The thing everyone forgets, they are bred for one reason, TO RUN and they love it." It always strikes me as funny that horse people would think anything bad about other horse people. Yes it's a business, but you don't find too many doing it that don't love the horses. If you listen to people like your friends, a lot of them always have negativity towards people with horses in other endeavors. After that HBO special, who's going to think the same thing about Eventing.Although it's basically obscure, when compared to horse racing and rodeo.

katsan 07 Aug 2008 8:43 AM

[quote]Big Brown quit running in the Belmont. Great horses NEVER quit running unless injured. And BB was not injured. End of discussion.

Saratoga AJ 05 Aug 2008 1:20 AM[/quote]

Hmmm.  In the Belmont I watched, (and I emphasise 'watched' - I was not on the horse ... lol!) KD jerked BB in a zig-zag, fighting his mount, within the FIRST QUARTER MILE of a 1.5 mile race! (Who does that???  In a 1.5 mile race, one has just about a mile, to find a nice slot for the horse, and one sets down to run in the last half, NOT the first quarter ...) In the Belmont I watched, the horse appeared to  be 'confused' by the interference from his jock, fighting to get his head.  In the Belmont I watched, the horse should not have been listed as finishing last.  In the Belmont I watched, BB did not finish, he was pulled up - and then galloped out, when the field passed him.  Why?  Only KD and BB know. I only watched.

Perhaps, in defense of KD, the jock may have felt something 'different' within the first jump or two out of the gate, and worried about the possibility of another scene like 8B's - not a pretty picture, particularly when you're responsible (as every jock is) for the well being of a 1200#, and in this particular case, a 50M$ 'alive, in the stud shed', critter!  Perhaps KD felt something going on, with BB's stride, re: the loose shoe.  Who knows - and now, really, who cares?  That was then, this is now.

Several comments about KD never using the bat before, on BB, to get a win out of him.  Folks, the bat does not make a horse run faster.  It does not 'make him dig down deeper, and pull out a win'.  It makes him pay attention, and stick to the job at hand, that's all.  In the Haskell, it looked to all as if BB was bearing out - pretty dramatically, at that - which of course adds a few strides, instead of saving the same, at the wire.  Thus, a hard bat on BB's right is to change his lead, and keep him out of the stands, imho.  Who knows why BB was bearing out? The horse knows.  But I'd still like to know what was going on, after the wire but before the pony picked them up, between BB and KD ...

As to Curlin vs BB, well, hell, folks.  The first 'rule' of racing is 'Find the best company for yourself, and the worst for your horse!'  Why in the world would BB's connections want to chase down Curlin, for a 'duel' - for the entertainment of the crowd?  for the 'betterment' of the sport?  Get real!  There is no good reason for anyone to expect a good 3 yr. old to beat a good (okay, I'll say it - a terrific HOY) 4 yr. old.  If intact, and still running - in this country, anyway - in its 4th year, it's because said horse is very, very sound.  We already know BB has some foot issues - and yet has 'lost' only one race (in an admittedly lightly raced career - a GOOD thing, for the horse, imho).  Why would any sensible owner want to risk both the horse's immediate health, and its 'record' of wins vs losses, to schlep up to hot, humid Saratoga, to meet an older, excellent horse???  Remember, best company for you, worst for your horse.  The smartest thing the BB team did was run in the Haskell. If the other owners/trainers want the 'prestige' of running in the Travers, by all means, go to Saratoga!  Otherwise, pick the worst company for your horse (and in as much as Saratoga is a bit of a circus, particularly to old timers, then one can certainly question whether Saratoga is the best company, for the humans in the equation.  But I digress ...).  

And, in terms of good things to do for racing, I'd say if we want to have more than one venue, it's also a good thing for Monmouth that BB's team elected to run there.  Saratoga never 'wants' for a crowd.  There's the 'mystique' of the Grand Dame of American Racing ('tho, according to my late husband, JCL, Saratoga went from being a 'Grand Dame' to being - well, I won't repeat what Jack would have said - I'll just quote him, when crossing paths with Lenny Hale, as we were on the way to the Clubhouse, passing the Paddock: "Tell me, Lenny ... where are you stabling the  elephants?"

If I owned BB, there is no way I'd be interested in facing Curlin at Saratoga.  I'd be interested in keeping my horse happy, and in the winners' circle.  And why not?

TBRacingFan 07 Aug 2008 8:49 AM

Jason, you're right on. It was almost like watching the 3rd at Belmont on a Wednesday. I think some race tracker on here said what I've heard a few others say and what I've seen for myself in California about having these short fields with 1 or 2 very good horses in an otherwise medicocre field in these big races. Some G2's are better, but look at the Sanford at Saratoga, 4 horses. course the weather was involved but it's becaoming the rule rather than the exception.

BIGHORSEFAN 07 Aug 2008 8:57 AM

TBRacingFan, First thanks for being a FAN. -If they don't want to schlepp up to Saratoga as you put it then don't call out the owners of the other horse. Their trainer is the one who keeps saying Curlin is ducking them, if you don't want a meeting with them shut him up once and for all. Sounds like your late husband was a fan of Saratoga in the days when no PR giveaways and so forth were required to draw people to the track.It's not really a circus but with the economy problems and the advent of all the selections of entertainment that's  the reality now, no matter how sad that may be. Heard even THEIR attendance is way down this year. The stick or whip as most jocks refer to it is used a lot on the shoulder to keep the horse from lugging out as a trainer on here explained. He also explained if the colt didn't change leads willingly as he had been trained with subtle pressure(such as it is for a jockey) or with weight shift or possibly(?) a tap on the shoulder then something may be wrong physically. I don't recall BB having lead change problems in past he's 3 and has a number of races under his belt now so makes you wonder if he's okay. Nick Zito had a cute comment about Dutrow that was posted on the newest blog. I offered an alternative that was probably a little too mean to pass the Edit. But Dutrow etc either needs to do what they keep calling for,put up or shut up

katsan 07 Aug 2008 12:40 PM

Wanda,

Little busy yesterday,not so much today. I think our guy was an underbidder or second underbidder on one or two. A couple RNA. This was what they call a boutique sale so more limited on what there is. Personally, I need to sell a couple myself but not a pinhooker so we'll see. The one that had my eye was out of my price range you know who, don't bid myself,auction fever.The Harlans Holiday's well the higher selling one went to Live Oak, how do you compete with Charlotte and her soup empire. Told my wife I knew we should've sold the soup she cans. The other one I can't recall who bought it. I liked an Afleet Alex, a Silver Deputy think Legends or Lukas got those. The September sale over 5000 consigned there I think, something for everyone. As for the big debate, I want to see what happens at SA period. Let's see what they do if that track is as problematic as it was before they changed it out. Maybe next year the BC WILL be run on a different surface at the same track. As for BB I'm a skeptic, like a lot of racetrackers I'm not sure he'll be back. 3 Chimney's hype on the banner ere "courageous in the Haskell" hmm. As katsan referenced Nick Zito's quote from the DRF 8/6

"Curlin is the Horse of the Year, so when Rick makes those statements, I'm thinking maybe he should get the phone number of Tony Soprano's psychologist. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Big Brown. But Rick still needs to get that phone number."

Atthebarn2 07 Aug 2008 3:51 PM

Katsan, I agree, Mr. Dutrow, et al, should limit remarks to their own entry, and avoid making comments about other contenders. If only there were still horsemen of the caliber of Frank Whiteley; Lucien Lauren; Tom Smith, and other taciturn track veterans. Trainers who knew enough to tell very little about their charges, much less run down the merits of the other entries.  Owners who would speak well of the competition.  Those days seem so long gone.

Hmmm. Well, I'm not sure I'd have called Jack a 'fan' - he was an alumnus of Cornell's school of architecture, but from graduation until his departure from this earth, earned his living and supported his family by breeding, birthing, breaking, breezing and bringing home enough in purses, with TBs in NY (not only Aqu and Bel, but OJam!), to avoid foodstamps.  As did his father, before him. [They, BTW, called it 'a bat' - and thus, so do I.  A whip meant a hunt servant (an assistant to the huntsman); a stick meant a slender branch, or a slender man (a slender woman was a reed); and a crop meant something one grew - corn, wheat, soybeans.] :~}

The Saratoga of Jack's era  included graceful elms standing guard along Union and East.  Saratoga before the age of men (in baggy shorts, dirty gym shoes, and tank tops), and women (in flip flops), pushing prams (with their  pablum spewing infants) between the prancing ponies parading from Okalhoma to the main track (while Pinkertons try to prevent mishaps) overpopulating the Paddock, and the world, at large.  But I digress.

I hope BB will run again.  I hope the bearing out, and the reluctance to change his lead, don't indicate a serious problem.  I freely admit I'd like to see BB in the Travers, myself - but I don't think I'd go for it, if the decision was mine to make.

TBRacingFan 07 Aug 2008 6:04 PM

Jason's fellow writer has an interesting article. He reiterates what a couple of people said on here that are horsemen, when he told that the horsemen at Saratoga were saying that BB's performance in the Haskell was underwhelming. Guess it's a consensus of the men and women who do this every day of their lives.

JordanA 07 Aug 2008 6:33 PM

TBRacingFan, I was referincing you as a fan, saying 'Jack' as you described was A fan of the old Saratoga (in other words PREFERRED)

Unfortunately for those of us who long for days gone by are probably few and far between. Like a song says though, life's about changes, nothing ever stays the same. My own father near 90 and Uncle in his late 80's do the same wishful thinking. My Uncle saw some of the old time greats run at Saratoga he wishes for those days. But that was also in the days of the racing Blue Bloods and like in the 50's through the late 70's racing was an elitist society and very cliquish, I've discussed that on here and longed for those days.I and others involved in racing for the last 50+ years would love to see the huge crowds we USED to draw, those days are gone I'm afraid. My reference to the stick or whip is modern terminology used by those of us who are still in there and plugging away, just like our fathers and grandfathers before us. I know they still sell them as Jockey Bats, my sister calls it a bat in her profession as a barrel racer but people nowadays see the reference to the stick or whip in horseracing. I don't think BB was hurt in the Belmont, but I don't think he's quite right now, or like I and other trainers on here have said, maybe he just isn't as good as we all thought he was in the spring, a trainer who would absolutely know this having raced against him said it originally. The point I wss making about hitting him on the shoulder with the stick (bat) was that is usually what is done when they are lugging out and that is what concerned me about his run.Yes he also hit him on the shoulder to keep him going but the horse was absolutely ridden all out period. I was a long time assistant trainer, my own husband a longggg time trainer,his colleagues,my retired trainer father , the trainers on here, the trainers talking about it to each other are all saying he was all out against a NWx2 other than. Not to be unkind but your husband may have been a trainer (not quite sure that was the exact reference), he's not here to give an opinion, maybe it would be the same as yours but I'll listen to the dozens who are still living. Actually I even agree with some of your points, your delivery I don't. Even the people who train now and have for many, many years, know the connections and everything that goes on in racing in the modern age as well as days gone by, didn't talk down or lecture like that. Whereas there may not be a lot of us on here reading or commenting there are a few. Some that have some very interesting insight and inside information knowing the connections and all the other 'experts' just talk over the top of all of us.

katsan 07 Aug 2008 9:35 PM

Wow Jason, now if all these expert, huge racing fans would just go to the track as spectators and spend their money as freely as they spout their opinions, racing would be one of the top sports in the country again.

The lady talking about the old days at Saratoga, well the Spa is still okay in my book, just got back. If you want the aristocratic racing, go to Ascot, those days are gone forever here because although the old money is still in racing, it's the new money and the corporate partnerships and the foreign entities that are running the game here now. Funny though in the old days the Kentucky Blue bloods and the hoity toity owners were held in high esteem, the trainers, jockeys and backside workers were looked at almost like carnie people. As for the present, change or get left behind, the modern day motto. And without the giveaways, sometimes even with them -the tracks are dying one by one. I'm not sure how long it's been since you've been to Saratoga but you sound like an elitist who hasn't been there in at least 30 years. If you are of an age where you knew the Tom Smith's of the game, I applaud you, you write very well for someone of that advanced age, heck my 87 year old grandfather won't even attempt to use a computer and he is very highly educated.  Even if your opinions are valid you alienate people immediately, another modern day problem I guess. As for me well I guess I'll listen to the trainers on here, in the DRF, that I talk to at the various tracks I go to and to people with connections, like Jason and Steve.

BIGHORSEFAN 07 Aug 2008 10:04 PM

Katsan,

I did not see the HBO special and I am glad I didn't. I suspect it was about slaughtering horses that don't make it in the races. Am I right? For that matter, Congress is thinking of allowing the mass slaughtering of wild horses out west somewhere. I have e-mailed my Senator and Congressman about that. They both replied but didn't agree with me. I wish HBO would do a special about that.

I have heard it said before, what you noted-that they love to run. They look like that to me too when I watch it-that they love it, which is why I watch it. The two friends that have horses, who don't appove of racing, really don't know that much about racing. They just think they know what goes on. I don't argue with them except to say that I know they are well cared for and have very good lives in general. Believe me, I wouldn't watch it for love or money if I thought these animals didn't have good lives.

I have a question. Someone on another blog said that maybe BB's mouth is the source of his problem/pain. They said a man named Bill Nerud(?) who has been in horse racing for many years thinks that is the problem. Any comments on that idea?

Paula Higgins 07 Aug 2008 10:30 PM

Katsan, I can only think that the 'formality' of my writing style may have slanted the interpretation of what I wrote.  (That is one of the 'problems' with such communication - the nuances of face-to-face conversations are not available, via 'blogs'.)  What I wrote was in no way meant as a 'lecture'.  Instead, it was meant to be humourous.  It was meant to explain how one so old (in style, if not in actual years) as I might still call a 'stick' or a 'whip', a bat - and why.  

I did misunderstand your adjective 'fan', in relation to Jack - I did think you meant fan of racing, more than fan of 'old' Saratoga.  However, there, too, I only replied with a sense of irony; I don't even think Jack would have described himself as a 'fan' of either racing or Saratoga, in spite of having devoted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, and some 3/4 of a century, or so, to Thoroughbreds.  

I don't think many men of his generation though of themselves as fans.  I think they though of themselves as horsemen - and gentlemen.  I think, perhaps, I am resistant to the 'change' of which you speak. I far prefer the formality of trainers who did their best to play their game much as a good poker player does theirs - with their cards close to their chest. Those days disappeared, too.  But you are right - Jack is gone, and evidently he has no intention of returning, any time soon. :~}  Please forgive me for dwelling on the past.

Bighorsefan, I'm an old-fashioned person, certainly, but far from an elitist. I can still pitch manure with the best of grooms (and have cleared a foal's nostrils of amniotic fluid whilst still wearing heels and hose, having come to the barns before the house, on my way home from work!) Elitist?  I think not!  But I do know the difference between the racetrack, and the beach! lol!  I personally did not know Tom Smith, and although introduced to trainers Whiteley and Lauren, and others of their generation, now all in Valhalla, I certainly would not describe myself as 'knowing' them.  But they were men of a quiet type.  Now, it seems the flamboyant trainer is the media darling.  A trainer who, like Mr. Dutrow, will be happy to tell all and sundry that his horse is 'way  better' than another's horse.  In the days of 'quieter' trainers, the last thing they wanted was for anyone else to know anything, whatsoever, about the horses in their barns!  It was not good for the odds - and it is, after all, a gambling game. I do still go to the races, weekly (although not to Saratoga, since the year after Jack's passing.  It was just a tad too bittersweet, for me).  But I will admit, the track makes very little profit, from me.  A lady never bets, at the racetrack (after all, bookies have families to feed, too! lol!)

Paula Higgins, I believe the trainer of which you wrote is John Nerud, a Hall of Fame trainer particularly good with sprinters, but who won the Belmont with Gallant Man - in those days, they even named horses well, didn't they!  'Big Brown' - honestly! :~} Mr. Nerud commented, I believe, that often a horse with an abscessed tooth will 'lug' away from the side that hurts.  There are some horses which lug for no particular (or more correctly, evident ...) reason, at all - and such are often fitted with a bit that looks like something out of the dark ages - with spokes that are 'spring' fitted on the bit; if a horse moves 'into' them, they poke.  I've got one around here, somewhere ... lol

Again, Katsan, please understand that no lecture was - or is - intended.  I am just sentimental, that's all. And I've enjoyed finding this forum, with its racing fans, both young and old, opinionated or open-minded.  What a bore life would be, if we were all of like personality, no?  After all, a difference of opinion - and style - is what makes a horserace!

TBRacingFan 08 Aug 2008 1:03 AM

Paula, Actually it's John Nerud. He is the 95 year old trainer that Carl Nafzger gives credit to for starting him out. He also trained for Tartan Farms and turned over Codex to Wayne Lukas who won the 1980 Preakness despite the thought that Cordero interfered with the filly Genuine Risk. Nerud's still kicking and breeds racehorses or did until recently. He trained Dr Fager. If he says that might be a problem, well it's possible. I just know a lot of us couldn't pinpoint it but who knows, as most racetrackers are saying it was an underwhelming performance, was there a reason???

The HBO special was about Eventing and how many horses and riders have died recently, staggering, I think like 14 riders and not sure how many horses. Yes more riders &horses die in racing but many thousands more are involved. Let me assure you that despite some people who comment on here and make remarks about trainers in defense of Mr.Dutrow (not you) every single trainer I know, no matter how famous or how small the stable, treat their horses wonderfully. They feed them peppermints and treats, they kiss them, hug them, talk to them, give them the best care imaginable. We even hand cook their feed here. I know even some big time trainers who have been crushed by losing a horse, swearing they won't ever get so close again, but admit to loving each horse and I personally have seen them talking to them like they are their kids. I'm sure just like parents that don't treat their kids right,there are trainers who may do that, they don't last long. You just keep on watching, we need fans like you.But, I read the other blog,and you might want to temper your defense of Rick, just stick to what you love in racing because trust me he's about gotten on the industry's last nerve.

katsan 08 Aug 2008 1:33 AM

[quote]... the trainers talking about it to each other are all saying he [Big Brown] was all out against a NWx2 other than [Coal Play][/quote]  Katsan 07 Aug 2008 9:35 PM

Hmmm.  I have a sudden craving for a Third Martini ... does anyone have an onion? Oh, wait!  That would make it a Gibson, wouldn't it?  (I am, after all, an old fashsioned girl! rotf,lmho!)  IOW, even a great horse can be beaten, on any given day, under any given circumstances, by a horse with lighter credentials. And, Big Brown was not beaten.  (And why, I wonder, didn't Dreyfus name his horse, 'Olive' ...)

The trainers talking about it to each other may indeed all be saying he [Big Brown] was all out against a NWx2 other than [Coal Play] - but I would bet (and I'm not a gambling girl) they are all wishing Big Brown had been in their barn, a year ago! (And yes, this is also meant to be funny, not a lecture, or 'talking down' to anyone ... I suppose I'd better not take my act on the road.)

TBRacingFan 08 Aug 2008 1:53 AM

I think Big Brown is tired of KD.  KD needs to let the horse run his race, settle into his stride without sawing back on the reins.  KD should let the horse alone, looks like he's already worn out BB's "push-button". When BB came round the turn he was gaining slightly on Coal Play then KD started doing gymnastics just as BB was firing, lengthening his stride as he came round the turn only to have KD throw him off balance.  Look at KD's knees when he leans, and the way he uses the crop, there is just too much commotion going on on BB's back and he's probably waiting to be pulled up again.  

HAYSTRAW 08 Aug 2008 11:15 AM

I'm inclined to agree, Haystraw.  I think, in spite of the racing idiom to not tamper with a good partnership (and wins in the Derby and the Preakness certainly suggest the partnership started out well enough ...) might be holding back Big Brown from making a connection with a rider who will not quite so dramatically try to direct the horse, to its apparent detriment.  I think KD has some issue with BB (or perhaps with BB's connections ...), and I thought so before they finished the first quarter of the Belmont.  My impression was further supported by the drama between KD and BB 'pulling up' after the wire, in the Haskell.  I'd have called KD on the carpet, for such a rough bit of work, on a horse that had just worked its hardest, to get ahead of a horse [CoalPlay] that looked for all the world like it would win the Haskell, by daylight, when the two hit the 1/16 pole ...

TBRacingFan 08 Aug 2008 12:35 PM

[quote](And why, I wonder, didn't Dreyfus name his horse, 'Olive' ...)

[/quote]  TBF

Ah, so.  Third Martini did indeed sire an 'Olive' - out of Can Make A Tree ... a filly of 1967. Unraced herself, no racing prodgeny.  Just a bit of trivia ... :~}

TBRacingFan 08 Aug 2008 9:11 PM

Katsan, look at my latest post on the other blog. I am calling for a truce on Rick and acknowledging that he has caused alot of pain in the horse racing community and that I respect the feelings of those who don't like him. Clearly his comments have alienated a ton of people. The end result is that he loses-respect and friendship of the people in the community and for that I am truly sorry. I can't imagine what it must be like to know people dislike you that much. It would be crushing to me.

I loved the way you described the relationship people in the business have for their horses. It's pretty much what I pictured in my mind. I know they are well loved and cared for and I know the horses know it too. An interesting note is that I worked with Dr. (Charles) Fager many years ago in Boston at the hospital I worked in (New England Baptist Hospital). He was a brilliant neurosurgeon and a really nice man (I can't say that for all M.D.s). A true class act. In some ways he reminded me of a jockey because he was quite small. Did you know the AMA (I think it was the AMA, could have been one of the other medical societies) censured him because he had a horse named after him? It was utterly absurd and would never happen now but back then it was the Dark Ages of Medicine. Great man, great horse.

People are posting that KD is not matching up well with BB at this point. i wonder if that is true. They point to the way he was pulled up after the Haskell was finished. I have looked at the race on youtube and I can't see what they are seeing. I hope that isn't happening because I don't think they are changing riders.

Paula Higgins 08 Aug 2008 10:08 PM

[quote]They point to the way he was pulled up after the Haskell was finished. I have looked at the race on youtube and I can't see what they are seeing[/quote]

Paula Higgins 08 aug 2008 10:08 PM

Paula, this youtube link shows most of what I saw:

www.youtube.com/watch

Watch again, from the '2:28' point of the video (when you'll first notice BB begin to try to shake off KD's high and strong hold ...), and pay particular attention from the '2:38' through '2:54' point of the video. Note the 'throw' or 'punch' of BB's right fore, at the '3:04' point of the video, a gesture of defiance, in a horse.  Watch his ears - until KD stops pulling at his head, BB's ears are not pricked forward, but swinging back, nearly pinned, at one point, trying to figure out just what his rider wants, of him. They *** forward when he's finally facing the stands. Keep in mind, as you watch, that this horse just fought a serious battle, to win the Haskell.  Keep in mind that the winner does not need to 'rush' back, to the winner's circle.  After an effort like that, when a  horse is still moving like a train, it behooves the rider to give, not take, rein; to keep hands low, and to ease the horse up.  

When I saw this action, on KD's part, my heart was in my throat! I expected to see, at any moment, KD jump off the horse, and grab at one of BB's forelegs - I thought he was pulling up an injured horse!  The only time I've ever seen a rider fight a horse that much, after the wire, is when something has gone so horribly wrong, that extreme measures must be taken to stop the horse ASAP.  The YouTube video stops soon after the 3:15 point, (where you'll see BB's head is still high, and he tosses it in annoyance) so what you don't get to see is the outrider pick up BB.  I watched, very very carefully, to see if BB would continue to fight for his head - he did not.  I watched, very very carefully, to see if BB would move soundly, alongside the pony.  He did. I know that my husband would have had a fit, if any jockey pulled up one of his horses, like that.  The horse has just fought a battle to win.  There is no sense in making the horse battle, to stop! Let him ease to a trot, before turning him back to the winner's circle.  KD turns the horse at the canter, not the trot - and then brings him to a halt with barely four strides, at the 'half-half'.  What was the  hurry?

If you watch the Belmont, you'll see a similar confrontation between KD and BB before the horses even make the quarter mile.  There are occasions - more so in a sprint - where a jock needs to strong-arm his mount into a striking position.  But the Belmont is a mile and a half, for Heaven's sake! No one fights their mount, in the Belmont, for position, until they've run at least a mile.  How that manhandling didn't cause BB to mis-step, and be injured, is beyond lucky!

This all said, I was not on the horse.  But I surely did not see anything that suggested the horse should have been so roughly stopped.  I'd have let him have some rein, kept my hands on his withers for balance, and used my body to add wind resistance, to help BB slow down and then trot.

I personally like KD.  But if BB was mine, and was going to race as a 4 yr. old, I'd be looking to another jockey ...

TBRacingFan 08 Aug 2008 11:57 PM

Thanks for the comeback Atthebarn2.I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.Can we all agree that maybe this horse has been and is not managed properly. I think everyone can agree on that one.If they are looking to squeeze more money out of this horse then by all means run him where he can win easy. It looks better in the stallion registry( by their thinking). If they want HOY then they better rethink their choice of a turf race.If he don't hook the handicap division it's doutful he'll get the nod as HOY.

Wanda 09 Aug 2008 1:55 AM

Paula,

I'm so happy we have a fan like you. I hope the whole RD thing goes away. Friends in the same circuit as RD, say he isn't all bad, just can't stop talking. I just know it affects us all. As far as Kent, I really don't know. I do know that RD originallly wanted Edgar, I heard this from another friend back in that circuit. What a neat story about Dr.Fager! I remember a horse named after a cardiologist, but don't remember the name, (senior moment). I slso remember Dr.Caton, a horse named after the Dr who saved Jeff Lukas' life I always wanted him to do well, he was never quite the horse I think Wayne hoped for. Know Wayne from the OLD days in NM.Things on the othr blog got very nasty and very personal, surprising who did the attacking. Not sure some warrnated it. Too much stress. Jason,I prefer your email explanations.  

katsan 09 Aug 2008 8:13 AM

After looking at the replay of the Haskill I can't help but notice once again how Big Brown throws his head up at the beginning of the race, as he did in the Belmont.  Is it a from being pulled up and "not smoothly" as "deb" mentioned, or does it have something to do with the horses around him?  I thought in the Belmont he was uncomfortably close to the horse in front of him at one point, and when he seemed to be throwing his head up, wondered if he was upset about dirt thrown in his face/eyes/nose and never regained composure.  The head throwing in the Haskell happened at the same time another horse came up on him....so, was he being pulled up, or is he having a reaction to the horse next to him as he remembers something unpleasant?  I get the feeling that this is an intelligent animal, so who knows what might be going through his head.  All I know is that he seemed to break from the gate "happy" (ears up), yet soon was throwing his head around and had his ears back (not lose and floppy as in the Derby and Preakness).  I just can't decide if is a reaction to the horses around him, or to something being done by the jockey.  Look at the replays.....what do you think?

Concernred in PA 09 Aug 2008 12:06 PM

Katsan: Did your family run Quarter horses? I thought maybe that's why you know D. Wayne way back in N.M. I took a trip down to Albuquerque(did I spell it right) way back in the early 80's. My friend worked for Bob Wattie and was a truck driver. We took down oats and hay to the track there cause Bob had a stable of  horses running there.It was  early winter and I thought man I'm getting away from the cold for a week. No downside to that except sitting in a Freightliner all the way down and back. It was a free ride tho.

Anywho, nice to read your stuff and others except he who we don't name. Keep it up cause it makes for a good read!

Wanda 09 Aug 2008 12:38 PM

Katsan, thanks for your very nice reply.I really do appreciate it. I am sorry the Lukas horse didn't do quite as well but I bet the cardiologist was thrilled to have a horse named after him. I know I would be. A little piece of immortality. You would have loved Dr. Fager, the human/person. The horse Dr.Fager was specatcular.

TBRacing Fan thank you for the link and explanation. I DO now see it thanks to your explanation. That worries me. Why would he do that? If a horse just won a race like that for me I would let him do WHATEVER he wanted, short of injuring himself. I hope that Rick Dutrow sees this and has a chat with him if they don't choose a different rider for the upcoming races. I like KD. He seems like a very nice guy. But I think thye are having problems communicating. The Belmont ride is still confusing to me an I don't understand why he seemed to be fighting with a horse that wanted to run. Maybe this is a horse you should just let run to the front and let him go?

Paula Higgins 09 Aug 2008 3:26 PM

Wanda, The funny thing is we had very few quarter horses. I think just one running back then a very nice filly who ended up getting hurt retired and we now have her grandson and last decendent a grandaughter  Dash For Cash is grandsire. Later on my sister took all the QH's for her rodeo, in HS, College and Jr they can rope, goat tie etc as Im sure you know. I knew Wayne from Sunland Park and Ruidoso Downs. He ran a lot of quarter horses we ran TB's on what they called a bull ring at Ruidoso. Also knew Keith Asmussen, Steve's dad, he rode for us a couple times. Knew JJ (Jake) Pletcher from there too, bunch of the oldies buy goodies. Yes you spelled Albuquerque right. Actually I'm up here now and we have hay down still and it is thundering like crazy. Rained last night too. Not sure if you read my early post but they're moving the track here at the Fair Grounds, out to the middle of nowhere 40 miles or so out of ALB. Don't know how long ago you were here but we now have a track at Hobbs, one at Farmington in addition to the others. Raton closed years ago and so did Santa Fe Downs, they're talking about reopening them though, slots are huge here. In fact we have an Indian Casino (yes that is what they call them here, it's politically correct) that is just a couple miles from the farm. There are 10 more within a 70 mile radius. I know the owner of the track in ALB so I'm not saying too much, just not very happy. Our 'friend' hasn't been as vocal, where it got bad was on the other blog with SH, not fun seems okay now.

Paula,

Actually Dr. Caton is a Neurologist/Neurosurgeon. Maybe you recall Jeff had an accident in 93 when Tabasco Cat ran into him and Jeff suffered a severe brain injury. The cardiologist was another Dr who saved the life of the owner and he named him that name, wish I could remember. Big storm rolling through here right now. So better get off computer.

katsan 09 Aug 2008 4:47 PM

You could be right about the proximity of other horses disturbing Big Brown.  It's becoming obvious that he dislikes being pinned in behind horses.  KD probably knew that, which would explain why he jerked him off the rail early in the Belmont.  It has been very fortunate for BB that he drew the far outside post in both the Derby and FL Derby.  I remember reading somewhere, early on in his career, one of his connections say that BB is an alpha male and does not like other horses near him.  

I saw how after crossing the wire in the Haskell, KD was battling with BB trying to prevent him from galloping out.  Why would he do that?  What is the deal with him?  Let the horse gallop out and cool down for gods sakes.  And then when he turns him around with the aid of another horse (Coal Play?), he just stops Big Brown cold.  The horse could have had a heart attack.  I really think Garret Gomez, Prado, Nakatani, or even Rose again would be better for BB.

Girl Power 09 Aug 2008 6:15 PM

Thanks for answering Katsan and I hear you about bullrings. Get this I ran horses on a half mile track too! At home it's a five eights track so first time I saw a mile I was like oh my god I didn't know they could make them that big!

Wanda 09 Aug 2008 7:30 PM

GirlPower: He has testicles, I'm sure he does think he's an "alpha male".

Wanda 09 Aug 2008 7:54 PM

Now Ruidoso Downs has changed a lot from the old days, it's interesting. They have a designated track for the QH races between the grandstand and the main track.  One of my very early memories is when we used to go on the mesa and watch the match races. Just like Louisiana a lot of good jockeys came up here from those match races. In fact a lot of good jockeys got their start here In NM. I can't remember for sure how big it was but we had a training track around one 10 acre parcel of our farm here in Alb. I've walked it many ttmes but we've planted over it now, not sure how big it was.

katsan 09 Aug 2008 10:45 PM

Enough of excuses why BB did this or that.  He should just be doing THAT!  Until he is a sure winner people shouldn't be making up reasons why he isn't living up to all the rumours why he is so great.

secretariat 13 Aug 2008 10:39 PM

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