Not convinced the turf is a good idea for either horse. It doesn't seem like the optimal race for either ( 1 1/2 miles for Brown? tuf for Curlin?) They'd probably both get trounced by the Europeans.

I think both would run fine on synthetic.

i'm utterly baffled why it was o.k. to run the horse over a horribly sloppy track that contributed to the death of a champion in last years breeders' cup but it's too risky to run on a synthetic track? i think jackson is usually dead on and he's wonderful for the sport but the arguments that he, and others like zito, are using to justify not sending their horses to the cup are ridiculous considering last year's bog

You almost snuck that one by me Jason. Okay I get it the turf makes sense but why oh why don't they run BB in the Woodward. I think they are ducking each other how do you like that! If you want to run in the BC this fall and next fall you better get over hating synthetic tracks and find one to run on. Simple as that.You can complain all you want but you will have to run on it sooner or later.

So what if the surface is untested. Big Brown will have to run on it too and its a huge purse. I don't think Jess is thinking this out clearly, Curlin didn't exactly tear the turf up last time, they should just consider that an experiment gone wrong. Also running BB on turf again may not turn out as well as Iavarone believes. You think BB can beat Tizdejavu? No way! I think Vegas ought to place odds on whether or not these two horses meet. This is the only way we are going to see them side by side in a betting scenario.

Big Brown should run in the Travers.

It's a shame the Breeders Cup decided to race on a untested surface. It seems everyone is worried about running their horse on it. It's better off if Curlin and Big Brown meet before the BC.  On another note, the stupidity of the articles I've been reading that are putting down Big Brown for his race in the Haskell. He ran a 107 Beyer folks. Coming off a long layoff, while catching loose speed  on a speed favoring track. It was actually Brilliant. Better than Curlins Haskell last year, no?

I too am baffled as to why they don't try Curlin on synthetic. Has he ever trained over any synthetic surface? Is there really a reason to not try him? I have seen many turf horses not do too well on synthetic and vice versa, despite the fact that many handicappers believe a horse good on one will be good on the other...so I don't believe Curlin's labored second place in his only turf start is any kind of predictor as to how he will handle synthetic.

They really need to at least try breezing him over that surface!

I agree with Rick... Big Brown showed some heart in his first real test/challenge (I believe the bent shoe had a lot to do with his being pulled up in the Belmont!). I also think he needed that race after a 2 month lay-off and I believe he will be so much better in his next start. Maybe he will show that old brilliant turn-of-foot in his next race!

Jess jackson's a pansy!  If Curlin were a truly "great " horse, he could run on anything...dodging the Breeder's Cup is cowardly!

Del Mar is fine this year and any problems Santa Anita may have will be fixed during their Oak Tree meet.  

Man what a bunch of chickens!

Mike...listen to me.  Big Brown is the best horse and you have already told the world you are going to the Breeder's Cup.  If Curlin doesn't show than he is dodging you plain and simple.  You do what you have to do to get him ready for that race.  You don't need to chase Curlin around. Let him go play in Japan.  The facts are simple: Big Brown wins out and he is the horse of the year. The BC Championship will be decided on Poly.  A true champion can run on any surface. Get Big Brown ready and crush them all in October.  Curlin...have a nice time in Japan. Mr. Jackson you claim to care about the fans?  Then give racing what it wants and meet Big Brown at the Breeder's Cup... been there done that ?  Not against Big Brown you haven't.  Face the best 3 year old or just retire him and pretend he was the best.

I agree with you Rick.  Monmouth can be a tough track for come-from-behinders.  Coal Play ran a pretty good race, (what's wrong with having another good 3-yo to join BB and Casino Drive), but he was a speed horse running lose on the lead until the final eighth of a mile.  At least when he was caught he still had enough left to be second, but there was no way he was going to outrun BB once that one got on even terms.  And don't forget, the race time equalled the three year best time for the distance.

As far as BB meeting Curlin in the Woodward, it would be a nice race to see, but I don't think there is any horse currently running in N/A and maybe even the world that is going to beat Curlin on the dirt in any kind of a route race.  The horse is at least the best dirt router since Ghostzapper and probably the second best behind that one in the current millenium.

Using a track and field analogy, this idea of running these two horses against each other on the turf is akin to matching up Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson against each other in the 400-meter, vice 100-meter dash....so what?...what would it prove, really?  Neither one can claim to be the best turf horse if they win, they would have only beaten each other, really....and one may simply finish in front of the other as part of the beaten field.

They made their mark on the dirt, and if they want to match up to see who's best right now, then dirt is the only way to go.  And I don't think it will happen.

If both sides are serious about meeting up, maybe they can go their separate ways, Curlin can avoid the Breeders Classic and run on the Turf, Big Brown can contest the Classic or avoid it too to save his reputation, and then they can settle it once and for all in the Grade 2 Clark Handicap at Churchill Downs going a mile and an eighth in late November.  Can't think of a better venue and distance to see who's best, and then it's off to stud for both of them.

I agree with Secretariat's Secretary that Big Brown should run in the Travers.  His gutsy performance in the Haskell was the necessary 'tonic' to restore the edge that he lost since the Preakness.  If he returns to his brilliant best in the mid-summer classic the connections of Curlin will need to beat him in a head-on clash to snatch the Horse Of The Year title.  At this stage a clash of these two flashy thoroughbreds in the BC turf looks far fetched although there is no doubt about Big Brown's prowess on the lawnn.  Curlin lost no marks in defeat in the Man O'War but the loss on the firm turf injected some doubt in the minds of his connections.  It seems clear that his strength is on the dirt.  Has the Arc D' Triomphe experiment therefore been abandoned?  Although there is a tremendous gulf between "very good" and "great" you cant blame the horses sometimes if their owners lack a bit of courage.  

Thought Jackson threw down the gauntlet: he wants 1 1/4 on dirt vs Big Brown and wonders aloud if they're going to duck Curlin---well, are they?? The Woodward is end of August, Saratoga, 1 1/4...this would be RIGHT!! Big Brown v Curlin in The Woodward!! Or how about....Big Brown v Curlin in a match race/same conditions??...Racing needs this to happen, and I APPLAUD Mr Jackson for understanding this--and not just trash talking around the brillance that are Big Brown and Curlin!!

agree with Draynay: The Breeders Cup is on poly--deal with it!! But at the same time, if Brownie is fit/ready, why not man up in The Woodward?? What a race! Curlin, with all his bloodlines and beauty--but I don't think he's Big Brown's equal on ANY surface! The one thing Curlin has on him is experience--Big Brown still hasn't found the jock who can ride him the way he needs to be ridden: like the speed horse that he is and has always been, and thus lacks a real running style/identity--this brilliant horse needs to be put into the race from the get go and when they realize that it's bye bye baby....

Lazzmannick Ghostzapper couldn't hold Curlin's bridle at 1 1/4 on dirt---you overestimate his BC Classic--that was a six fur race with a two length head start, as Frankel chose pre race not to engage with Roses In May---no way was Ghostzapper a 1 1/4 horse--very talented-YES! In Curlin's league? NO!

Isn't a big pile of the Santa Anita surface sitting in the parking lot?

The woodward would be the best place for a match-up.  The fact is, most trainers are concerned about Santa Anita's surface, not just Curlin's connections.  The track has had other problems with the surface this year.  For all the fans that lashed out after what happened in the Derby to Eight Bells, I'm surprised more people aren't more understanding of running a horse on an unknown surface.  The trainers are keeping the best interest of their horses well being in mind.  Also, Curlin has proven how good he is, he is the Horse of the Year from last year, Big Brown should be the one to meet him, Curlin isn't the one that has to prove anything, Big Brown is.

If you owned BIG BROWN would you want to run him at 1-1/2 miles again? I sure wouldn't. That Belmont Stakes wasn't very good.

I find it funny that everyone assumes BB will be up to snuff on turf just because of his maiden win last August.  (As an aside, I'd take a placing in a G1T event a la Curlin over a win in maiden event.)  Plus, I'm not sure about BB going 1 1/2 miles either dirt or turf.  

Also, to those of think BB is so much better than Curlin.  What about the competition factor?  Curlin had SS, HS, and AGS, last year.  All three-year olds who beat older horses.  If Curlin was the best of that bunch, then BB your saying BB is hypothetically better than all of those horses, too.  I don't see it.  

If Mike(Clay & his crowd too)ever sees this blog...you don't have a hair on your behines if Big Brown doesn't run in the Woodard...there won't be enough room in Saratoga Springs to hold all that will come to see that epic battle...& Oh what a hell of a way to EXPOSE our beautiful sport...LONG LIVE THE KING & THE DIRT!!!

There is no way you can compare this years Haskells field to last years field. Although BB brown ran a very gutsy race, he basically ran down a leg weary allowance horse. Now that BB connections know Curlins plans they should put up or shut up and meet him in Saratoga.

Let's get one thing straight...Curlin is the reigning HOTY. If the connections of BB want to be HOTY, they must beat Curlin. It's up to them to enter BB in the Woodward or JCGC. Both horses are here in NY. No excuses. BB needs to beat Curlin to prove he is great. Curlin already is great and will repeat as HOTY if BB continues to duck him. End of story.

The connections of BB, especially Dutrow, are an embarrassment to the Racing Industry.

Very happy to see Curlin entered in the Woodward as I will be attending that race. Would love to see Curlin and Big Brown hook up but I'm not holding my breath.

To my mind, the type of surface should not deter the aims of a true champion. However it's easy for me to say as I hold no ownership stake in either horse.

If they race or not, their futures and destinies are decided as the two of them are headed to the breeding shed anyways. It's a shame that we will never see a "World Series" like Affirmed/Alydar ever again which took us through practically their entire racing careers. Even while in stud, their rivalry remained.

Jackson was very clear in his comments: mile and a quarter on dirt. Woodward: mile and a quarter on dirt. Don't see the problem for IEAH and motormouth Dutrow. Show up for the Woodward if you want Curlin.

I too think BB should run in the Travers and prove he's still the top 3-year old colt.  The others may have caught up with him.  The Haskel didn't quite do it, considering the horses he was facing; and the Belmont is still fresh in everyone's mind.  As for  Curlin vs. BB, it's not exactly Seattle Slew vs. Affirmed is it?  Now that was something to look forward to and remember!  

I like Curlin...no, I LOVE Curlin.  He HAS trained over the polytrack, namely Keeneland's racing surface when the Asmussen barn was stabled at Keeneland for Pyro's Blue Grass Stakes debacle.  I don't understand Jackson's reluctance to race him over the synthetic surface at all.  Now he's talking about maybe racing him at 5?  Yes, I know, Cigar had probably his best year at 5, but Curlin needs to rest.  He needs to be a horse and live the good life.

To me Curlin and Big Brown could run 1 1/2. I mean Curlin finished 2nd in the Belmont and 2nd in the Man o' War (1 3/8 but close to a 1 1/2). While Big Brown wasn't the horse he usually is in the Belmont and unlike Curlin he has actually won on the turf. If they are truly headed to the turf , the BC Turf and the Distaff immediately become the most interesting racing.

All the talk of Curlin ducking Big Brown is silly. Curlin is the reigning Horse of the Year and has given plenty of warning about his next race. It is now time for the connections of Big Brown to put up by taking on the HOY or shut up. Also, how on earth is a two-year-old maiden win on the turf making Big Brown a confirmed turf horse? I fail to see how that is more impressive than finishing a strong second in a G1 against two BC Turf winners.

unquiet, GW did not belong in the classic last year. he never raced over a dirt surface and he was not all that good last year anyways. he had been sent to stud the year before but b/c of problems they brought him back hastily and very late in the year anyways...

I don't understand why people are saying Jackson is ducking BB.  He has said all along that Curlin would most likely not run in the Classic this year.  As to ducking BB so far this year, BB has been running in three year old races - Curlin couldn't have run in any of BB's races.  Both horses are brilliant, and it would be great to see them race against each other on the dirt.

Mathew W. I like a good argument but what you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense.  First of all, I agree with you that Curlin is a great horse, in fact, he is my current favorite and one of my favorites of all time.  I think that if he met Big Brown in the Woodward he would prove once and for all how superior he is when comapared against any horse in the world in a dirt route-race.

But don't knock Ghostzaper.  The horse was phenominal winning grade-ones at 6-1/2F (Vosburgh), 7-f (King's Bishop), 1-M Metropolitan),1-1/8M (Woodward), and 1-1/4M (Classic).  Check out his beyers.  They were always consistenntly high (several over 120).  He won big time races at 3, 4 and 5.  And your comment about the Classic being a 6-furlong sprint makes me laugh.  He ran 1-1/4 miles and he did it in track record time without letting up.  What does it matter how fast he ran part of a race when the race was that fast? And he beat (no humbled) probably one of the top three or four fields ever in the Classic (Curlin did too), which included Roses in May, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift, Azeri, Birdstone, Dynever, Funny Cide, etc. etc.  If you look at his Woodward, he was snsational.  And any time he looked a horse in the eye, he always won.  You can't say that about Curlin (Rags To Riches). To say that he is not in Curlin's league is a joke.

Mathew W---Ooops.  I said that Ghostzapper won the King's Bishop.  He was actually third in that race.  It still doesn't diminish what he did over his great career.  And he did win the G-2 Tom Fool at 7-f.

TURF???

That would be as exciting as watching Muhammed Ali and Joe Frazier in a chess match!

Curlin is a champion DIRT horse, the best in the world.  Big Brown's claim to fame thus far is what he has accomplished on DIRT.  Who on Earth would even care to watch them compete in the BC Turf?  Actually, as a bettor, it would be fantastic, as niether one of them would have much chance hitting the board in a fully stocked rendition of the Turf.  

The simple fact is, the Big Brown connections want to cash in on a great stud deal without having to risk their horse being shown for what he is - a very good horse, nowhere near a great one.  Curlin's people have basically laid out most of their steps for the rest of the campaign.  If Big Brown wants be considered by any knowledegable racing writer/fan/etc., he has to defeat, or at least run against an older horse on dirt.  This is another perfect example of trying to carefully manage a decent horse so as to make him appear to be great.  I'm sorry, but the only way to do that is to do it the old fashioned way - earn it - ON THE TRACK.

Can anyone tell me why Santa Anita gets the Breeders Cup two years in a row? Does'nt seem quite right to me. The synthetic surface seems to be out of the question for both Curlin and Big Brown why not a match race at Churchill since they both ran their biggest races there.

I don't understand why Big Brown should run in the Travers.  He's already beaten every 3yo of significance running in this country.  It proves nothing to run him there.

I agree that the idea of them both in the BC Turf doesn't accomplish anything; nobody is particularly interested in seeing them both finish behind Red Rocks and whoever Coolmore sends over.  The question is who's the better dirt horse (and no, synthetic isn't the same as dirt), which means BB should either point for the Woodward or the JCGC.

The Woodward is 1-1/8M, not 1-1/4M.

What would Big Brown running in the Woodward against Curlin mean to my family? Two words -- "road trip!"

Jason,

As I watched the Haskell with friends at Saratoga, two things came to mind:  Big Brown was not the same horse as came into the Derby and his lack of turn of foot and terrible bearing out in the stretch says that he is battling unsoundness or - at the very least - very ouchy feet.  

I thought after the race, "Watch - the next race they go to will be on the grass -He's sore and they are trying to protect his feet."  When I found out after the fact that Dutrow had called an audible and put his last work on the turf - that sealed the deal.  

He is unsound - and the connections gambled that he could squeak through the Haskell courtesy a really weak field and get the stink of the Belmont off him.  

Sure enough, the next day - they are looking for a grass race - and expect someone to create one for them!  It's like Ripley's believe it or not!

Big Brown was no world beater in the Haskell - the "guts" that they attributed to his getting up in the end was assisted by 12 - count 'em - TWELVE hard cracks with the whip and the fact that Coal Play was shortening up to a lope.  Coming home in 13 and change is not serious champion time.  

Big Brown is not in any shape to face Curlin at this point - he is not in any shape to face any of the best grass horses, IMO.  He has simply tailed off badly in the second half of the year  -  and guaranteed - Iavarone will look for the easiest spots to place him - if they run him again at all.

I have no idea why Jackson is so adamant about not running Curlin on synthetics - unless he knows something we don't - that he cannot run on it.  He is a heavily muscled dirt horse - if Asmussen got him out on a synthetic training track without anyone knowing about it(that's my hunch) - and he floundered - that could be the basic reason why they won't go to Santa Anita.  There's not another logical reason not to run there.  

It certainly isn't about meeting Big Brown.  Curlin has nothing to fear from him, that's for sure!

Wrong Saratoga. Big Brown doesn't have to do anything but win out.  When he wins the Breeder's Cup Championship its all over Big Brown is horse of the year.  Why can Big Brown run on it but Curlin can't?

All the best horses will be there, why is Curlin dodging it?  Champions show up on Championship days if Curlin is not there he is ducking plain and simple.

Jess Jackson has not just recently spoken out about not liking synthetic surfaces--I can recall comments in past interviews about his not wanting to run horses on "plastic", as he put it. While Dutrow and Iavarone were publicly taunting the Curlin people before the Belmont, Asmussen and Jackson quietly went about their business and let Curlin do the "talking". They do not need to defend their decisions regarding this horse! He is the world champion for two very good reasons--his ability and their good stewardship! The Big Brown people could learn from this approach.

Draynay, don't count on all the best being there.  Zito hates synthetics, so do some other trainers.  At this point, I would love to see BB take on Commentator.  he'd have his hands full at this point.

Pa.Derby sounds about right for Big Brown.Then it's off to Canterbury Park.It will set him up perfectly for the BC classic.

If people would just honestly look at the performances of both Curlin and Big Brown and not let their hearts get in the way then they would obviously see that Curlin is the better horse, Big Brown has only run against other 3 year olds and as it's been pointed out by others the field for the Haskell was not a very strong field. Kent did have to work on Big Brown to get him up to win and whether that has to do with sore feet I'm really not sure. I don't understand why the Big Brown fans keep suggesting that Curlin still has to prove himself, have you been watching his races? He did very well in the Man O' War, granted he didn't win but he finished second to a BC Turf winner and was ahead of another BC Turf winner, I don't think that is something to hang one's head in shame over. Those two BC Turf winners beat some of the best that Europe had to offer, let's try to keep things in persepective here. Curlin really hasn't had the type of training he deserves to have for competing on the Turf, I think it is still too soon to pass judgement on his turf ability. As for Big Brown he still has to compete against older horses that are pretty tough out there and true the connections to Big Brown have to be careful where they place him due to his impending stud duties as everyone jumped the gun on that one including the stud farm that successfully got him to stand there, let's hope he does not tank as a stallion. And as for the Breeder's Cup well as it's been pointed out the Curlin team has pretty much mapped out what they want for Curlin and I stand by my words in other blogs that I agree with how they have been placing his races and what their intentions have been from the get go with him. I think that if they do run him in the BC Turf that having won the Classic the Turf would be excellent to add to his resume. And if they do run him at 5 how great will that be for racing, I would love to see him run in the Santa Anita Handicap. Also, in regards to Big Brown running in the Travers, it is important as it is one of the most prestiges races for 3 year olds. It would be good for Big Brown's resume.

Lawduck:  Not really.  Commentator's win in the Whitney was a bit of a fluke---weak field and he wasn't challenged.  He's still going good for his age though.

Mike M to funny but hey are you dissing Canterbury Park? I took a road trip the first year it opened and man did they have a good backside kitchen. When your surrounded by corn fields it's tough to find a KFC.

The syndication deal with Three Chimneys is done, and I don't see why BB has to add to his resume'. I doubt IEAH and Dutrow want to race BB against a 4-year old world beater at the end of August, and the end of September (Jockey Club Gold Cup) is out, as Iavarone has said BB will not again race at Belmont Park (surprise!).  I can't question Jackson's reluctance about SA's unknown surface given SA's and DelMar's past problems; I'm surprised the IEAH people aren't raising the same doubts.  Off topic, the news from Maryland and Laurel stakes elimination are sad tidings for racing's future.  

Jason - I'm hoping you're being sarcastic, or at least fishing for some friendly disputes with this subject.  BB vs Curlin in the BC Turf WILL NOT HAPPEN.  And let's be honest, they probably will never face off -- a true representation of what horse racing has become - a bunch of dodging horses and surfaces to create a "flawless" resume for the breeding shed.  I've always been a racing fan, always will, but gone are the days where Champions actually faced each other, even multiple times, throughout the year.

BB has sewn up 3yo Champion.  The only way he can be denied is if another 3yo beats older horses or wins the BC Classic (neither I see happening).  If he only has two starts left in his career, why not square off against the best we've seen in a long time... Curlin.  I think the Woodward would be the perfect scenario for the BB/Curlin match-up.  And, hey, this sounds crazy nowadays, but how about a sequel in the BC Classic?!  

Dutrow and Ivarone say they have the best horse in the World, then why ask for a "create a turf race for me" option in mid-Sept?  I do agree with Cgriff and think BB's feet are becoming more of a problem then they want to make public.  Dutrow's trash talking about Curlin will seem idiotic if they settle for a ready-made turf race in Sept.  You want some respect?  They know where Curlin's going... if you want some, come get some!  

And if Jackson knows (as I do) that Curlin is the best horse in the World, then why dodge the synthetic track at SA?  The only way this makes sense if he does try the Japan Cup on dirt.  But I sure would love to see him stay put in the US.  

My last thoughts (predictions):  I don't think BB will win again, and I don't think we'll see Curlin on BC Day, and I KNOW we won't see a BB/Curlin matchup... A SAD, SAD REALITY CHECK FOR RACING FANS EVERYWHERE!!

It is pointless for Curlin to meet Big Brown, especially on dirt. He has nothing to gain since he would be expected to win and favored. He has everything -- including his legacy -- to lose. Even if he is the better horse, he can lose one race. Remember the Belmont? Does ANYone think Rags to Riches is/was the better horse? No, Curlin's connections are being bluffed into a pointless race by a mouthy jerk of a trainer and a racing "fan" base that watches three horse races a year and can't name them all. They posted a fan poll on Curlin's site that purported to want the opinion of his fans whether he should continue a turf campaign or a dirt/synthetic campaign. The fans -- Curlin's fans  -- wanted to see him on turf headed for the Arc d'Triomphe in Paris. THAT would have been exciting, irrespective of the result. I know, because I saw Curlin race twice (the Jaguar and The World Cup) here in Dubai last Spring and it was ELECTRIC! Ending his career in a WORLD-CLASS race, not a skins and shirts schoolyard pickup game would have been classy. That is how Secretariat ended his career. A one-race match will prove nothing, except Curlin's handlers ignored his fans. A REAL test of two horses? Affirmed and Alydar. Nine races, seven went to Affirmed, two of the three Triple Crown races by the BAREST of margins. Great, true matchup. It will never happen again. Go Curlin

Wanda---stay out of the kitchen.  You can get in all kinds of trouble if you hang around in there---and for sure stay out of the conrfields, especially around a racetrack.

Wanda- I love Canterbury. I would never diss that place.Maybe on my way to DelMar I'll stop off and check the place out.

What did I miss in the Man of War?  Curlin finished 2nd to a turf champion with a 104 Beyer, after breaking slow.  I've only heard totally negative things about Curlin's first turf performance.  Does anybody else think finishing 2nd in a Grade I turf race, first time on turf, is an accomplishment?  He did travel to and won in Dubai, which has knocked out many a horse!

Big Brown goes to a light field in the Haskell, the owners now are asking for a turf race to be made for the horse, and will most likely pass up the Travers, Woodward, Jockey Gold Cup, and all the other "big" races.  The owners of Big Brown are letting horses like Pyro, Coal Play, Da 'Tara, Macho Again, etc. all catch up to Big Brown by gaining real experience in the "big" races.  I have no doubt that Big Brown will be in trouble in the Classic because of this, and horses we once thought were inferior to Big Brown earlier in the season will most likely push the horse to its limit, which sadly seems has already happened (foot problems or not).  Pyro is coming along quite nicely, among many other horses!  Beware IEAH, you can't dodge your way into the Breeders' Cup Classic Championship book, watch and learn what a full season is really about.

I'm sure they don't want to race Curlin in the Woodward.  If Big Brown was all out to beat a sprinter at a mile and an eigth, there's certainly no way he's going to beat Curlin at any distance.  How many times did Kent D. have to beat Big Brown with his whip in the stretch just to catch that sprinter.? IMO Big Brown's best races are behind him, as a matter of fact, the Haskell reminded me of last years Travers Stakes where Street Sense was all out to catch Grashopper.  Not taking anything away from Grashopper, who I think is a pretty nice horse,  but here is your supposed 3 year old champ and he's running that hard and furious to beat a horse that is nowhere near as good as the top older horse. It tells me everything I need to know.  No,  Dutrow wants no part of Curlin.  Actually, nobody really knows if Big Brown is going to be better than the best turf runners in this country.  How many times has he run on it and what type of competition was he facing?  Maiden 3 years olds,  what..????  I don't think he faced the best turf runners here yet, and when he does then we'll all know how good he really is on the turf.  Let's see if HE can beat Red Rocks at the Man O' War distance.  That would be interesting, and what would be even more interesting would be if he could get the distance or not because I still do not think Big Brown can run a distance with the big dogs.

A good horse can run on any surface.  Just to note, the best horses in the past few years are the ones run on the BC turf.  Quick note: Sakhee, Giants causeway, they never raced on dirt and had it not been for Tiznow, both wouldve demolished the best the U.S has to offer.  Both were the best Europe had at the time.  Sakhee, won the Arc just weeks before the running in the classic and came up a short head of making the arc-classic double.  The bottom line, the best horses in the world right now, are turf runners, and to be declared world champion or bragg your the world champion, you have to prove you can win on any surface, just like secretariat did, just like John Henry did.  Everybody comes and takes a shot at the BC, but us americans just talk but hardly go take a shot overseas, only the few like Whittingham, Frankle, Drysdale, and most recently Ó'Neill have had the courage to go to Japan and challenge the best the world has to offer on foreign ground.  This year the Europeans, Australians, South Africans, Arabs, South Americans will show up for the BC, Why are our best two horses not going to?  To me its gutless, and unamerican.  The BC are our yearly olympics, in our homeland, we should defend it and win every single race every time, we should not go crawl under a rock.  All we are showing the world is we are becoming a gutless society, and that we should not even be respected.  We will continue losing to all these outsiders who have basically taken away our previous dominance, and all we are left with are memories of our great horses and heroes.  We are becoming has beens and i dont like it.  So to the connections of Curlin and BB, grow a pair, stop the trash talk, and go after eachother, but also and more importantly go after the Henrythenavigator, and the Red Rocks, and The Duke, and Casino Drive, cause these horses arent ducking anybody, they are coming here to conquer, and even though i love many of our hard knocking warriors like Better Talk Now, Student Council, or A.p. arrow, im sorry to say thats not the way to win wars or championships, you win with your best, enough said.

Nick, obviously you didn't read my comments, I think that Curlin did very well for his first time out on the turf and with limited training for turf racing.

Joe, I still believe that adding the Travers to Big Brown's resume is important due to the prestige of the race, many trainers aim for this race to improve their horses credentials and at this point many late developing 3 year olds have now come into their own and Big Brown even after the Haskell still needs to show why he should be top 3 year old, the Haskell wasn't that impressive and a win in the Travers against better 3 year olds would be to his advantage.

You know what guys I've been so broke the only way I was going to eat was the "special" at a backside kitchen. Phoenix had a lunch special mac and cheeze for 2 bucks. I used to eat that on the day before payday. Serious guys that and corn flakes.          

Boy am I disappointed that BB won't go for the Woodward. I guess he truly is ducking Curlin. (he,he)

I think Big Brown should race in either the Woodbine Mile or the Oak Tree Mile (both on the turf) or on the dirt the Hawthorne Gold Cup or the Goodwood.

Just reading Dutrow's classless remarks about Curlin. He might not have won the Derby, and got beat by a filly, but anyone above an idiot would not consider Big Browns competition on the level of Street Sense, Hard Spun, Lawyer Ron, Rags to Riches. Red Rocks, Better Talk Now, Einstein etc.etc.

Winning a maiden on turf does'nt quite stack up to a grade 1, with three Breeders Cup winners.

I still like Big Brown, but Duuuuhtrow makes it hard to root for him. You can be guaranteed that wherever Curlin goes, Brown won't.

As far as the synthetic track. If it was a stable surface, you would hope that Jackson would'nt duck it. But it is going to be a new track, and after the mess they had there last winter, it would be hard to be confident that the surface will be right.

Barring injury, heaven forbid, Curlin will be the first US horse to win over 10M. What the heck does he have to prove?

Here's my bet. The two will never meet. The Woodward, already a no for BB. Too quick back per owners. 4 weeks almost to the day too short, 8weeks too long, sheesh. BB runs on the turf, he broke his maiden but Patrick Reynolds was the trainer. If he runs crummy in the specially created race, what happens then? Who's ducking who here? I don't think Curlin is the greatest ever, just the better of the two right now, BB all out against a colt that's only won a maiden and an allowance. Wow.

As much as I love Big Brown, I have to say his connections are TERRIFIED of Curlin, regardless of what Dutrow and his infamou big mouth says.  If they weren't scared of Curlin, they would face him in either the Woodward or the Jockey Club Gold Cup.  Since they will do neither, and they know it's unlikely that Curlin will run the Classic at Santa Anita because of the new surface, they are homefree.  If Dutrow honestly believed he had the better horse (which, btw, he does NOT), they would show up and face Curlin head on and not dance around making lame excuses for why they aren't.  Instead, IEAH, Dutrow & Pompa want a track to "make" a special turf race for them AND have it be a grade one race?!?!?  Can I have whatever they are having???  Must be good whatever it is to make them dream up THAT fantasy!!  

Dutrow, make it simple on yourself!  Face Curlin like a man, or shut up.  Curlin did something that Big Brown could NEVER do and that is win the Dubai World Cup.  Curlin is the best dirt horse to come along in YEARS, and unfortunately, I include Barbaro in that.  We never saw what Barbaro could or could not do.  We know what Curlin *can* do.

I don't think that BB is as good as everyone thinks he is. I also don't think that BB would come close to beating Curlin. I don't like the connections of BB not to take away from him. He is a decent horse but not as good as Curlin.

I agree with Huh that the BC Distaff is going to be one of the most intriging if not the best of the BC races.  The filly and mares have truley outshined the boys this year.  The true match up that would be interesting is Zenyatta against the boys. That's what I personally want to see.  In my fantasy world I would like to see her take on both Curlin and Big Brown. She's one of the most impressive animals, physically, I've ever layed my eyes on.  But, like I said, that's in my fantasy world.  Her trainer has already stated that the Classic is out.  But wouldn't that be something to see her take on Curlin and Big Brown or at least one of them.  Now that would be good for racing.

By the way what exactly were the comments Dutrow said about Curlin. I missed them somehow.  I understand they were pretty raw.  He seems to just keep digging himself a great big hole.

Nick, I think dissapointment arose because there was a lot of hope in Curlin's ability to conquer turf and move forward. He let a horse beat him who is not considered to be a top notch European animal. On another front, BB's connections now have the horses itenerary in place for the remainder of the year and don't plan on meeting Curlin on his terms. It sure seems to me that they are both dodging each other. This has become a mess thats driving horse fans crazy, and its going to get crazier as the BC arrives. Jess, just send Curlin to SA and cure this insanity once and for all.

Dutrow's quote according to Newsday.

" Curlin could'nt win the Derby, we could. Curlin could'nt win the Haskell, we could. Curlin got beat by a filly, we have'nt. Our horse is undefeated on grass. Curlin is'nt. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We are way better than Curlin."

Ricky Retardo:

Curlin couldn't win the Derby, we could," said Dutrow, who reverted to his controversial self after six weeks of good behavior. "Curlin couldn't win the Haskell. We could. Curlin got beat by a filly. We haven't. Our horse is undefeated on grass. Curlin isn't. I don't know why people think Curlin is such a good horse. We're way better than Curlin."

Jackson:

I think it's bad for racing to have trash talk," Jackson said. "To run down another guy's horse, I don't think it's right. It demeans the industry. I'd like to meet Big Brown, preferably on the dirt, which is each one's best surface, but I think they're considering retiring Big Brown before we have a chance to meet him.'

I see Timeform gave Curlin a 134 and named him the best in the world with Duke of Marmalade 2nd with 133 and then Big Brown and Papal Bull tied for 3rd with 132. Some top horses there (obviously).

Hey Mike M where the heck are you driving from that you can stop over in Shakapee,Minn on your way to California? Man that's a road trip!

I am not understanding Brownie's connections in saying the Woodward timing is off when it is only two days before the Penn Derby, which they stated was under consideration. Maybe that's out now because the horse came back tired? I would think the Haskell would set him up nicely, unless there is a problem.

What older horses? Who are these great older horses Big Brown has to meet? If there are any good older horses out there how come none of them showed up at the Stephen Foster ? There are no older horses that will even give him a race... You want to see him beat Grasshopper by 10 ?

Curlin is not a turf horse and couldn't beat a 2nd tier turfer and if you watch the race he was nearly beat by a 10 year old. So let's see what has Culin accomplished since he got back... he got beat on grass and he beat a grass horse in the Stephen Foster.

I guess that leaves Lava Man as horse of the year!  He won on dirt, turf, and synthetics.  I do think the synthetic "specialists" do have the upper hand (e.g. Col John) and Zenyatta's closing 3/16ths in under 28 sec on synthetics is impressive.  Man she has a kick and at 17 hands high dwarfs any other 4 year old filly. A match up with BB and Culin is just what the sport needs.

Okay, it just sounds like the owners are ducking each other now. The turf move for BB seems to have come from nowhere! I don't understand why Iavarone would give up a perfectly placed dirt race at a reasonable distance to go after turf. Unless he's avoiding a race against Curlin. As for Curlin, I'm a little disappointed he's not continuing his turf campaign, but I understand Jackson's reasoning. Hopefully, he'll run again on the Turf in the future - though I'm not sure the BC Turf is the best place for him to have his second try at turf.

And what's all this to-do about synthetic tracks? I thought they were supposed to be safer for horses than dirt. Why can't Jackson just deal with the fact that the deciding HoY races will be decided on synthetic tracks?

In any case, if BB and Curlin do meet this year, it should be in a 1 1/4 dirt race, on a surface and distance where both of them have proven themselves. If they meet in the BC Turf, I don't see either of them winning and then what have they proven? That they're not the best turf horses? We already knew that to begin with. I just don't get what the owners are thinking.

Pam, Not really, if you read the whole article, Jackson was steamed and said a lot more. I just quoted him on his reaction to Ricky's conmment.

I wish BB and Curlin would race against each other because then that would be positive attention to the sport from big networks.

Nick - I totally agree.  Not to mention he only ever had one work over the turf as well.  I think if by some miracle we see Curlin at 5 there will be a few turf races involved.

Draynay...no, if YOU watch the Man'o'War you will see that Curlin lost over three lengths to Red Rocks on the break when he hit the side of the gate. And he lost to RR by two...so you do the math. That wasn't such a bad first turf race. And Red Rocks a "second tear turfer"? If you were a student of racing, you would know that Red Rocks runs much better here than in Europe because he's allowed to get lasix here. He has easily beaten Europe's better turf horses in the BC Turf on two occasions now...the same horses he lost to across the pond.

I know I can put together a more competitive field of older horses than the allowance class 3 yr olds Big Brown has been beating up on.

i so love the suggestion.i think that would be fantastic!!!!!! i hope they read your blog

I thought that the Santa Anita turf course was hard as a board and more like a hard dirt track.  They may have changed the track more recently; I don't know.

So if the turf is more like dirt than the artificial surface on the main track, then maybe a turf matchup makes more sense.

My other comment is that IF Big Brown is not sound, then I hope his connections have enough sense to just retire him, so we don't have to watch him break down on the track in front of millions of spectators.

If he is sound, then find a better jockey for him and GO FOR IT!!!

As much as I like BB, I don't think he is as much horse as Curlin is.  On steroids he may be, but he did not win like the old BB would have when he was on them.  I am not convinced he can beat Curlin off of them.  His next race will tell unless it is on grass, and that can be a whole animal of it's own.  I love BB, but I would have to bet on Curlin.  

It seemed at Santa Anita this year that the best horse usually won---no I don't know why Jackson's reluctance to run on it, but if he does, then Racing HAS to stand him down and award Big Brown if he wins The Classic! This important, as horses HAVE NOT been breaking down on poly as muck as dirt--Eight Belles/Barbaro ran on TRADITIONAL DIRT TRACKS ALLREADY!!! The breed is far more muscled now and they're TRYING to lower the catastiophic breakdowns!!! This is just a newer versuion of THE EAST COAST BIAS vs West Coast Tracks! "Everyone's SSSOOOOOO concerned".....about poly........whine whine whine...see you at Santa Anita Park, aka "The Great Race Place".....

Big Brown & Curlin

Hmmm well Big brown is your basic allowance or grade 3 horse and Curlin Grade 1 horse. Ther is no comparing the two on any given day. CURLIN is by far the BESTTTTT

Curlin's the best dirt horse, period, beating a great crop of 3 yr olds and demolishing the field in Dubai.

Kudos to Mr Jackson for dreaming of a world-conquering adventure and trying turf, even though Curlin lost. Mr Jackson is right in skipping the Arc. The Japan Cup Dirt would still be historic.

Lamannick, sorry to tell you this but Ghostzapper was exactly that- all he did was zap ghosts. Saint Liam was a nobody when GZ beat him in the Woodward and Pleasantly Perfect was old, way past his prime. I agree that he was certainly fast- his Met Mile as a 5 yr ols was awesome- but ultimately he was just a one-hit wonder in the BC Classic. His others races were not run under the kleig lights but in the shadows, unseen and unnoticed save by the few fans with a true passion for the game.

I agree with Larry--the best horses in the world are grass runners such as Yeats, one of the all-time great stayers, Duke of Marmalade, and Henrythenavigator.  Henrythenavigator is being pointed for the BC Classic.  He is an extraordinary miler.  

Its a shame what the industry has come down to. If this was 15 years ago, Curlin and Big Brown probably would have met each at least once before the Breeders Cup Classic. I personally was never really impressed with Big Brown in the first place, and that has nothing to do with his loud mouth trainer. But as far Dutrow's comments about Curlin in Newsday about him not being able to win the derby. Nobody was beating Street Sense that day. Even though I know this will start an argument, I always thought Street Sense was the better horse. He would have won the Preakness if he didnt let up ( and when i mean "he" im talking about the horse, not Calvin Borel who rode him perfectly that day). Curlin's win in the Classic was good, but I dont think it really proved anything because alot of horses ran poorly that day. For example, Curlin beat Lawyer Ron by a head on a fast track in the jockey club gold cup, so why was it that Lawyer Ron was some 20+ plus lengths behind him in the classic. Any Given Saturday won the Haskell on the same track and finished up the track, Street Sense didnt like the mud and let Awesome Gem nip him at the line for 3rd. But I would say Curlin is the better horse. This isnt exactly a Sunday Silence/Easy Goer matchup but it will be the most interesting match-up for the year. Big Brown winning the Travers will look good on his short list of accomplishments. I want to say that greed is killing the sport. Had Big Brown ran in the 80's or early 90's he would run a 4 year old and Curlin mostly likely would have came back as a 5 year old. The good old days are gone. Big Brown win in the derby was good, but it wasnt exciting as in years past such as when Monarchos, War Emblem, Smarty Jones and Barbaro won theirs.

Jess Jackson is right for not running  Curlin in the BC. I know I wouldn't, I mean why run a champion against a wannabe on an unproven surface? If you want to see a real race, let it be on the turf or the dirt. BB's connections should have run in the Woodward if they really think he can handle GREATNESS. 27days is enough of a break between races so enough of the excuses and let them meet Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, that is unless they are still having Belmont NIGHTMARES!!

Dr Marv---How can you say Ghostzapper was a one-hit wonder.  He raced over 4 years; his Met victory was his first start since the Classic (almost 7-mths); if Pleasantly Perfect was an old man he must have really aged in the two mths leading up to the Classic given the dominant record he had that year; Saint Liam only went on to be horse of the year the following year; on any given day most of the others in that field would beat most of what we'-re seeing today....if Curlin or any other horse racing the past two-years did what Ghostzapper did you would be calling them a wonder horse.  

Enough with all this Curlin stuff.  He won the Preakness by a inch! He lost the Derby, the Belmont, the Haskell, and we now know he is one dimensional.  He can't run on Turf or Poly all he can do is run on dirt at a mile and a quarter. Every time there is pretty dirt at a mile and a quarter we will give him a call otherwise I guess he will just stay in the barn.  I will go with the horse that can win on ANY surface !  Big Brown on Turf or Dirt or Poly if you have the horse bring it.

I've not read all the comments on this particular blog but, having read through past ones regarding Curlin and Big Brown, is it possible that BB's last performance (i.e., his lack of brilliance) could be the result of BB not liking his jockey?  Despite the very valid shoe issue of the Belmont, it seemed to me that Kent and BB were "fighting it out" and seemed so again in the Haskell.

I remember that Dutrow once said that Kent rode BB in the morning and it was a disastrous affair but BB has absolutely no problem with Michelle riding him (why can't she be his jockey?).  Is this behavior the result of a change in routine -  or the jockey?

Jeremy: Street Sense probably was a better horse up to and including the Derby. But he was seasoned horse, running in his second year, after about 8 or 9 races or so. Curlin was racing only 3 months, and had run only three races heading into the Derby. Once he caught up on seasoning and experience, and matured, he became the better of the two.

Street Sense was a terrific horse too, and it's too bad his connections didn't let him race again as a 4 yr old.

Just saw what Nick Zito had to say when asked to comment regarding Dutrow's derogatory remarks concerning Curlin and how Big Brown is "way better".

"I'm thinking Rick should get the phone number of Tony Soprano's psychologist". Nick's a funny guy. (And a hell of a trainer!)

Julie L. - I like your thinking & agree.  BB has to prove himself now that he is not juiced.  He won the Derby & Preakness juiced.  I was a big BB fan until it became known he was given monthly shots to juice him.  NOW he must show what he can do naturally!

Curlin - I wish he would have run 1 more Turf race.  I truely think that would have given all a better idea of what he could do.  I thought his first Turf went well. I was wishing he would win too but as a first time on a different surface I liked his performance. I saw him at the Derby & if you could have seen those muscles on him you would know how he wins so well.

There have been a lot of soft tissue injuries on synthetics which means a leg's muscles, tendons & ligaments are being ripped & torn.  This isn't good for horses either as their lower leg doesn't have as much support as the uppper portion.  If it's the back legs injured then that affects their breeding ability. I'm not so sold on the synthetics yet.  I don't blame trainers & owners for possibly missing the 2008 & 2009 BC.  If I owned a racer I might miss the BC's to keep my horse healthy.  Unproven track surfaces for such a big event isn't good.  It will be interesting to see how many race on the synthetic.

Just asking, Hysterical. Maybe they had a spat. BB is jealous because KD rode other horses, or better yet without the roids BB is having hormonal issues. Or you may be right, maybe he thinks the owners did Edgar dirty, saw him get inducted into the HOF and wanted a more recent inductee. Sorry I couldn't resist.

Here's a thought:

Maybe the move by Big Brown's owners to run him on turf is to prove his ability to run on any surface - how good would it look on his breeding resume to have Grade I wins on dirt, turf and artificial? He's won from the outside and from the middle, leading all the way and fighting to win, on steroids and off. His only Achilles heel is his feet. Pun intended. :-)

Just Asking, Michelle is an assistant/exercise rider not a licensed jockey that I know of. Exercise riders usually are 115-140 and actually work for the stable. Some trainers like to put lighter riders on so will ride a jock as an exercise rider. No offense to Michelle but she doesn't look 105-114, course they say the camera adds 10 lbs so I may be wrong.

    First off for all of those who have posted on here talking about how times don't lie.  That's true, but they can be misleading.  To me, you can't compare times of races because tracks change from year to year and even day to day.  Case in point would be the Preakness.  Louis Quartoze, Tank's Prospect & Timber County all ran faster Preakness times than Secretariat, Seattle Slew & Affirmed.  Would you take any of them over the greats I just listed who ran slower times than them?  So quit with the Big Brown ran the fastest Haskell time in the last 3 years stuff.  If we're playing that game, then Curlin ran a record equalling time in last year's Preakness and Big Brown didn't.

    Second, all the Big Brown fans on here talk about how he ran down a loose on the lead horse on a speed favoring track to win the Haskell and Curlin couldn't do it.  No Curlin didn't win the Haskell, but just 2 1/2 months later he did run down a loose on the lead Hard Spun on that very same speed favoring track to win the Classic and in the slop no less.  Now, who would you like your chances to run down in that situation, Hard Spun or Coal Play?  Don't answer we all already know.

   Third, Big Brown is no doubt a very talented horse and it is not his fault that this year's 3 year old crop is weak and couldn't come close to last year's crop.  However, until he beats older horses and really proves himself, then I don't see how people can say he would beat Curlin!  To me that is kind of like saying a College All-American is better than a current Pro Player and future hall of famer.  Curlin has faced better, beaten better and just simply is better.  To me, this argument is kind of like the same argument some people had 2 years ago with Invasor and Bernardini.  Everyone talked about how great Bernardini was, and they should have, and a lot of people were saying he would dominate the Classic and weren't giving Invasor much credit even though he had won the Dubai Classic and multiple other Grade 1 races.  We all know how that turned out.

    Fourth, I don't see how everyone is making a big deal of Curlin getting beat in last year's Belmont by a "girl" even though that filly was bred top to bottom for the 1 1/2 distance of the Belmont, which is not Curlin's best distance and the fact that filly was extremely talented.  It's not like the fillies don't win big races.  If that's the case then how did Winning Colors win the Derby.  It does happen.  I'm also tired of hearing people say that Big Brown has won on turf and Curlin hasn't.  Big Brown beat 2 year old maidens, Curlin lost to a BC Turf champ and beat another former BC Turf champ in the same race.  Can anyone name another horse that Big Brown beat in his maiden turf win let alone name any success that one of those horses has had since?

    Next, I also don't see how people keep saying if Big Brown wins out, he is the horse of the year.  That doesn't make sense.  Let's say he does win out and so does Curlin, but they don't meet (Curlin runs and wins the BC Turf).  NO way is Big Brown horse of the year.  That would mean the reigning horse of the year would have won 4 or 5 grade I races this year & won every race he ran this year, but 1 and that was a 2nd place finish against 2 former BC Turf winners.  Couple that with the fact that Curlin has faced open company all year and 2/3 of the year Big Brown faced company restricted to 3 year olds and Curlin is definitely your horse of the year.  If it's a toss up, I'd be willing to bet the writers and people who have a vote that counts vote for Curlin if nothing else than the fact that they appreciate Jackson brining him back to race at 4 and Curlin's owner, trainer and jockey seem to display at least some class, which is something you can't say for Big Brown's connections.

    Finally, quit bashing Jess Jackson and saying "he says he is for racing, but he doesn't give the fans what they want."  I give the man credit for trying to do with Curlin what no other horse has done.  He was going to try the BC Classic, Dubai, Arc triple, but that doesn't feasible at this point so he might try the BC Classic/BC Turf double which no horse has done.  Besides, if he wasn't "for the fans", he would just simply have retired Curlin after his 3 year old season and not brought him back for a 4 year old season.  He's even left the door open for a possible campaign for Curlin as a 5 year old and we all know Big Brown is done after 1 or 2 more races.

    In summation, and this is more for draynay, Curlin is at this point better.  Now who is to say that Big Brown wouldn't be better as a 4 year old than Curlin is as a 4 year old, but we'll never know.  Listen to me Jess Jackson (stole that one from good old dray), you have nothing more to prove especially whether or not Big Brown is better than Curlin.  He has to chase you if he wants it, not the other way around.  Let people say you're dodging Big Brown even though you have made it clear Curlin's next start is in the Woodward and shortly after Big Brown's people have said he wouldn't run there even though he would have 4 weeks after the Haskell to get ready.  Please make it known soon where Curlin will run after that and please make it either the BC Clasic or BC Turf.  I'd be willing to wager if you run in the Turf, Big Brown's people run in the Classic and if you run in the Classic, Big Brown somehow, someway will be retired before that race can happens.

Jason, I agree with you agreeing with poster Curlin. I don't particularly like Curlin's (the horse) connections. Not really for recent stuff,Jackson's recent comments are improving my view of him but just some things I don't like (Asmussens newest drug positive for one). I think I read on your other blog a day or so ago that the two will never meet so that's not new. But Curlins post sort of said something 10-12 other posters said in their posts just all in one, making it one that some people won't read.

KAREN IN INDIANA

BB's win by 11 lengths on Turf at Saratoga as a 2year old sort of already proved he can run on grass so that's a moot point.

Draynay,

Looks as though the BB camp is ducking Curlin not the other way around.  They could go to the Woodward or the JCGC but they don't want to.  If BB is so great, why aren't they chasing Curlin?  You and I both know that had Curlin been in the Haskell (which, of course, he couldn't because he's not 3) he would have creamed BB and  you know it too.  Get off this thing of saying Curlin is ducking BB.  It just isn't so.  If they want to beat Curlin they need to go where he goes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't there been a lot of people in racing saying that horses that do well on sythetics usually do well on turf and vice-versa? I think that Curlin isn't AS good of a grass horse as dirt, not sure about BB since his impressive Turf performance was as a 2 yr old under a different trainer but an 11 length victory over top 2 y.o. at Saratoga can't be easily dismissed.  I think a big ? for all going to the BC may be the Santa Anita surface which last I saw was still being installed and a lot of it was still not even on the track. All the problems last year with the cushion track they're replacing and only 1 month of racing on the new surface before the BC, now that would worry me as a trainer or owner of a BC runner.

Curlin,

I agree totally! You ae right on all counts.

Big Brown's connections want no part of Curlin or they would be entering him against Curlin, they could take a shot.  Dutrow wanted to go to the Travers but the owners don't want any part of that because they are not so sure their horse can do it.  He barely did on Saturday but he managed that and that was against an extremely week field,  No grade one winners.  I think the horse is done.  I don't think you'll see him in the classic because BB is just not doing what he did before.  His feet are a big issue too.  He will have to face older horses in the classic and if he doesn't do any better than Saturday they won't be willing to risk it becaue of his stud value and don't think Mr. Clay doesn't have some input here.

And the most disgusting thing is Dutrow is still bashing Curlin.  No class, no class at all.  Curlin's connections have never said a word about Big Brown.  It's certainly not because they're afraid of him!

I agree with "Curlin" on all comments. How could anyone think Big Brown deserves HOY whether he meets Curlin or not? Has there ever been a HOY that finished last in a major race, especially a Triple Crown race?

Big Brown is currently being pointed into the Classic.  If the same horse shows up at the Classic that showed up at the Haskell, he WILL lose.  I think Big Brown is sound, but I think something broke in him the day of the Belmont.  Also, keep in mind that 3 year olds improve as the season goes on.  Dutrow and Iavarone are saying that BB has the 3yo of the year locked up, but he really doesn't if he doesn't face Curlin.  Whoever DOES face Curlin will have a good shot at it and if they actually manage to BEAT Curlin, it'll be even better.  I think in order to beat Curlin though, Curlin will have to have an off day worse than BB at the Belmont.  

I agree with the poster "Curlin".  Don't take a single thing away from Rags To Riches she was an exceptional filly and ran her heart out to win the Belmont.  With any luck, she will pass her greatness to her foals.  

Jess Jackson is a great owner, as he proved by running Curlin for his 4 year old camaign and hinting that Curlin may run as a 5 year old.  He could've retired Curlin after the Dubai, but kept going.  He could've been like Darley and retired him after he got Horse of The Year as a 3 year old.  But instead, he's given us a champion to support this year that we know.  Too many other owners are retiring their horses at 3 instead of running them at 4, when they've matured and have improved.  Never bash Jess Jackson, who runs his horses drug free and is trying to do more to improve the sport.  I can totally understand why he won't run Curlin on the synthetic at Santa Anita, I wouldn't either.  Even though it is a different surface, Santa Anita has had too much trouble with their synthetic surfaces, along with synthetic has not proven to be safer for the horses.  This years Breeders Cup "dirt" races are going to be interesting, since a lot of dirt horses don't like the synthetic.  You may not see the truly great horses ofthe season at the Breeders Cup for the dirt races, because it isn't dirt they will be running on.

Yes, Draynay, BB can win on any surface as long as he runs against a weak field.  That Haskell field was extremely weak and he struggled to win.  If they put him against better competition, he won't win.  You think he can win on synthetic?  Has he run on it?

He will face horses from other countries too at the classic.  Do you really think he will win?  Why do you think they won't go against Curlin?

It is quite obvious that Big Brown's people don't want any part of Curlin.  It doesn't get more obvious than the fact that they will not run in the Woodward.  Why Not?  Not enough time between races,  give me a break.  If Big Brown is so much better than anything else on the track then 27 days is plenty of time. How on earth could it not be? But,  then again it took everything Brown had to catch that sprinter going a mile and an eigth.  If Big Brown wins another race this year I will be very surprised.  Big Brown matured quicker,  he peaked first and now the rest of the 3 year old crop are beginning to mature and peak.  That was evident in the Haskell.  I am certain that Pyro would have beaten Big Brown in the Haskell by daylight. The second half of the racing year should be interesting. I just don't see Big Brown winning another race,  unless of course,  they make up a special race for him where he runs against maiden first time starters on the grass or something like that. You know, to showcase to the world America's great 3 year old champion because he is unable to run in the Wood and show the world how well he finishes up the track. Does anyone remember the awesome stretch run Curlin put in last year at Monmouth Park en route to winning the Classic while HE was a 3 year old?

If Big Brown could only win the Haskell by 1 3/4 lengths what could possibly make Draynay believe that Big Brown could beat Grasshopper, a very good older horse, by 10 lengths?

To Saratoga AJ - thank you for educating Draynay on racing.

To Carolyn in ND - thank you for the nice words.

And to Curlin - excellent post!

I really think that BB did not look as good as he did previously, because he was taken off his steriods.  He looked very skinny, you could see his ribs and did not have the muscle that he had previously. I do agree with everyone who said it looked like BB did not like his jockey, when they were first galloping out on the track before entering in the gate, BB was tossing his head like he was angry again like at the Belmont and I thought, Oh No! He really had to find another gear to catch Coal Play and it was gutsy, but not like the Derby or the Preakness.  Looks like BB is very tired. Just an observation...

Seems like everyone wants to get their opinion in on Jason's blog. Also seems like no one is reading the other posts. I read Jason's blog and what the race track people on here are saying. I agree with you Jason and the racing people and appreciate their first hand information.

In my opinion, Curlin is unbeatable on the dirt.  If  you watch the Dubai World Cup, that performance was electrifying.  He ran past those leaders like they were standing still and won by almost 8 lengths.  He demolished that field and very easily.  There are problems with BB.  I think his feet are worse than we know.  They want turf now because of his feet.

He has to redeem himself before he goes to the breeding shed.  He was not impressive at the Haskell but he did win against non-grade 1 winners.  He will probably not run in the classic.  I doubt he will run more than one more race.  He's not a sound horse and Curlin is, that's a big difference.

I don't understand why everyone says Big Brown is the better turf horse. Yes I know he won his first race on the turf by 11 lengths but let's remember that was a MAIDEN race, then unproven horses and possibly still unproven. On the other hand Curlin finished second in a G1 to G1 winner RED ROCKS and beat G1 winner BETTER TALK NOW. Come on now people we should all now that Curlin is far better on turf than Big Brown because he is G1 placed there unlike turf maiden winner Big Brown.

I think Big Brown's people are returning him from whence he came (turf).  I would assume he started on turf becasue of his feet (?) and he'll be going back for the same reason.  I think he peaked in the Derby.  The Preakness wasn't really that impressive against a very low level field.  Was being passed by the entire field in the Belmont when pulled up.  He has yet to prove himself on turf.

Jeremy - your comments about Curlin's performance in the Classic left out the fact that he ran the LAST half in 48 and equaled the track record for the distance - in deep slop.  And Curlin DID have a hard Triple Crown campaign (in terms of competition), and met not only a top class horse (of any sex) in Rags to Riches, but also a rested one.

Speaking of Hard Spun, that is a horse I would have liked to see compete as a 4 year old.  Fast, talented, gritty, showed up for every single race.  He was something and I think he might have been able to become a very, very good older horse.

Texas Fan. Horses don't usually break "something" in them in one bad experience in a race, especially if they didn't suffer an injury. Rick saying he didn't know if BB would run after being pulled up is pretty much like the rest of his rhetoric. Seems like the horse isn't quite right otherwise he's like a big name trainer said on record, just not as good as we all thought he was in the spring. On the foot deal, I heard an interesting comment on TVG where the former assistant trainer of Cigar said they dealt with similar foot issues more often than not. He managed to perform pretty amazingly.

Have read the posts and confused on Winstrol. BB is off Winstrol, but is Curlin? I read that he also was administered the steroid, but one poster said J.Jackson's horses run steroid-free.  Might Curlin's connections avoid the BC because of the ban, not the surface? (By the way, prefer Curlin to BB, but hate the use of steroids in stud colts....)

Things really don't logically add up in this saga.  I would throw out the Belmont concerning BB.  He had so many things working against him. The Haskell was a tough race for him and he stepped up to the challenge. I know it's tough to compare times between tracks but Curlin's Stephen Foster was over a second slower than BB's Haskell. My thought is that they fear each other.  If they match up one will end the year on a down note.  They are trying to get the maximum return for the least amount of risk and effort. I really doubt Curlin will be back next year.  He wants to retire to stud on top, just like Big Brown.

KatintheHat:

I couldn't agree more to me Big Brown might actually be running hurt because he is not the Derby Big Brown or the Florida Derby Big Brown because he doesn't have the same turn of foot as he did then.

Great post fom Larry concerning American horses avoiding races on certain tracks, i.e. synthetics, on Breeders Cup Day due to the fact that it may not be their best surface. Foreign horses routinely take up that challenge in the "Classic" and give their best effort even though it is obviously not their prefered surface. Certainly Curlins connections, to their credit, have been willing to venture into untested waters before in both Dubai and their quest for the Arc. Why than, on America's showcase day to the world, would they not even attempt to run on the synthetic at Santa Anita and defend the Cassic title. Mr. Jackson has already shown himself to be a great sportsman by bringing Curlin back to run at four while his peers disappeared into the breeding shed. Curlin is the best America has to offer and should represent us on the world stage of the Breeders Cup not in Europe or Japan.

No offense to Big Brown fans but you really don't want that big red horse. If you think you do IEAH and Mr. Dutrow know exactly where he will be - show up. If not in New York I hope the Champ will change plans and be in California in October - he should be.

Jess Jackson has ordered all his trainers to not administer ANY type of steroid to any of his horses as of January 1, 2008. If they do, he "will fire them". That includes Asmussen. Curlin has run clean since then if not before. It sure didn't seem to bother him in the two races in Dubai and in the Foster. This horse doesn't need any help.

I have been watching racing since I was very young...all the way back to the mighty Kelso and the horse that made me a fan from the start, Carry Back. Buckpasser, Sec, Dr Fager, Affirmed, Slew, Cigar...all the great ones. And Curlin can be mentioned in this company. To accomplish what he did last year in only 9 months...break his maiden in February and win the BC Classic in November...was almost unheard of. The great Hall of Fame trainer, Allen Jerkens said after the BC Classic last year, "Curlin is not one in a million, he's one in a zillion". And the "Chief" has been training and seen them all since 1950. Enough said.

Monica, Curlin is unbeatable on dirt ?  Lol... only because the horses that beat him retired. Curlin is now running against a bunch of nothings. Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday, Street Sense.... all retired.  It is very simple... all Big Brown has to do is win the Breeders Cup Championship and he is HOY.  Curlin not showing is an excuse.  Big Brown connections are not using it as an excuse so why are they?  Horses with real talent can win on any surface like Secretariat, Barbaro, and Big Brown.  Curlin is a one dimensional dirt horse.

Draynay,

Wondered where you were.  I posted that to see if you would come out and sure enough, there you are.  So why doesn't your horse enter the Woodward, Drynay????????????

Please do not blasphemy Seattle's Slew's name by mention his and Curlin's in the same breath.  As I remember it, Curlin DID NOT sweep the Triple Crown undefeated.  He was beaten solidly in the Derby (yes, albeit a "tough" trip, but what do you expect in a 20 horse field, being that far back early?).  He was whipped by a filly in the Belmont.  Slew would have left Curlin toiling as they turned into the stretch in a classic distance race.  He'd be in front by five with that speed, and Curlin can take his sweet time in "leveling off" or "bellying down" while giving Slew a five length start.

Draynay - There is almost no way that Big Brown will be HOY, unless his connections quit running away from Curlin and face him at eiter the Woodward or the JCGC.  If the same horse that showed up at the Haskell shows up at the Classic, HE WILL BE DEFEATED and BADLY.  He won't have a prayer to beat older, more experienced and, lets face it, more talented horses.  If Casino Drive shows up, Big Brown will be beaten.  If Curlin shows up, BB will be beaten.  The fact is, Big Brown peaked during the Triple Crown campaign.  Quite as simple as that.  For his connections to decide, at this point in the season, to switch him back to turf, after it became apparent that Curlin was not running on turf, tells me that while Dutrow may not be scared of Curlin, his owners have a more realistic view on the situation and realize that Big Brown will never beat Curlin.  Period.

I know it might sound crazy, but why not reinstate a vintage idea?  A good-old fashioned 2-horse match race?  I'm sure there are a few tracks out there who would shell out the purse for it, because there's no doubt the fans would clamor to see these two face one another.  Might be just what this ailing sport needs.

If The Champ and the Big Ole Browneye are to meet it should be on dirt. All spring and into the summer the debate has been who's better on the dirt. If the Big Ole Browneye doesn't go to the Woodward it is clear his connections are the only ones ducking anyone. The perfect chance for the two to meet on a conventional dirt surface, what more could we ask for? Unless they meet on dirt and he proves me wrong I will always believe that Curlin is a far superior on dirt than the Big Ole Browneye. I despise the fake surfaces they have created and could care less who wins over that. The two meeting on grass which has not been either ones choice of racing surface is rather irrelavant. As much as I love grass racing these two have garnered their reputations on dirt and that's where they should meet. Anything less would be a big dissapointment.

Give the people what they want Duck Duck Dutrow and bring your Big Ole Browneye to Saratoga to meet the real Champ. No more races against patsy 3 yr olds who couldn't win a minor stakes against seasoned older horses at this point.

    Starred chestnut, Curlin's best race to date was the Dubai Classic.  It was better than his Classic last year and if I'm not mistaken, Dubai doesn't allow any drugs, not even Lasix so the whole point of it being the Winstrol is not valid.  Since Big Brown has been taken off steroids he has had a terrible performance in the Belmont, excuse or not and a gutsy performance in the Haskell, but no where close to his best performances like the FL Derby and KY Derby when he was on the juice.

    Draynay, I completely respect your opinion, but somehow you still don't seem to quite get it.  Curlin was pretty much on even terms against Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday & Street Sense up until the point that he gained the same racing experience that they did.  Once that happened which was around the time of the Classic, we all saw what happened.  I can tell you that I was on hand for the Foster and right now, Curlin is as close to as unbeatable on dirt as any horse could be.  I won't say he is unbeatable because he can be beat, any horse can.  His performance in the Foster was pretty dang good.  The way Albarado just sat on the rail with Curlin around the 1st turn and down the backstretch because all the others were boxing Curlin in and the way he swung out and ate up ground on the turn and then opened up down the stretch without being asked was pretty impressive.  To tell you the truth, at the 1/8 pole I quit watching Curlin because the the race for the picture was long over.  I started watching Barcola to see if he could hold on to 2nd against the fast closing Einstein because I had a $50 exacta of Curlin over Barcola.  Well I lost that photo, but got to see the best dirt horse in the world live for the 2nd time so I can't complain.  Curlin is a push button horse and yes he does seem to want to stalk, but when Albarado taps that button on the dirt, he explodes.  On dirt, Curlin just seems to be getting better whereas Big Brown seems to have leveled off.  I want to see a Big Brown/Curlin showdown as much as the next person.  It's the only way I will ever get close to even money on Curlin again.  I like cashing tickets, but cashing 1/5 win tickets isn't a whole lot of fun.

    I'm still not convinced Big Brown would even beat Curlin on turf.  Win by 11 lengths in a maiden race or finish 2nd in a Grade 1 race against 2 former BC Turf winners, which is better?  Heck I can hit home runs off little league pitching, but against major league pitching, that's a different story.  Yes, I love my analogies.  If Big Brown wins a graded race on turf, I would be more than happy to concede the fact that he is a very good turf horse in addition to being a very good dirt horse, but Barbaro won a grade 3 on turf and Secreteriat won a Grade 1 on turf so please don't compare Big Brown's maiden turf win to the accomplishments of those 2 on turf.  That's just ridiculous.  You know I actually know of a claiming horse who has won on dirt and turf at Churchill & synthetic at Arlington, does that mean he has real talent?

    Now this is nothing new to anyone, but Big Brown's connections have their chance to put this whole debate to rest in about 3 weeks.  We don't have to wait the 2 1/2 months for the Classic and the uncertainties and things that might occur between now and then.  There is no maybe Curlin runs here or maybe he runs there so he's dodging us because he's undecided and we have said we're going to the BC Classic.  It is clear they want the turf or the synthetic to face Curlin because even deep down they know that is the only chance they would have against him.  They don't want the dirt.  Well I say to Dutrow and IEAH, Saratoga-Woodward-3 weeks, there's your chance.  Having 4 weeks to recover and prep is plenty of time.  SHOW UP OR SHUT UP!  It's that simple.

All spring and into the summer draynay has been spouting off that he thinks Big Brown is a better dirt horse than Curlin. Now that it's apparent that Big Brown's connections want nothing to do with going to Saratoga and meeting him in the Woodward draynay has changed his tune. He's known for some time that Curlins connections have no desire to run on the fake stuff in California so he alters his bull to fit the situation. He of all people should be screaming at Duckie Dutrow to get to Saratoga and face Curlin so he could be proven right all along if Brownie would win. Instead he revises his opinion knowing that these two probably won't ever meet by choice of the Browneye's connections no less. I too believe that Curlin is a far superior animal on the dirt. That's where they should meet to decide who is better that day.

Curlin a one dementional horse and Big Brown not? That's a joke too draynay. Big Brown won what a maiden race or 1st level allowance race on the grass against nobody and that makes him multi-dimensinal? He's got to win far tougher races than that to qualify. Curlin on the other hand went straight to the G1 level for his first try on grass and faced the reigning breeders Cup Turf Champ to boot. By finishing a close and very respecful second he proved his grass worth far more than Brownie has to date. If my memory serves me right I can only recall one other horse (War Chant who won the Breeders Cup Championship and made me a pile of cash) who made a bigger splash in his turf debut. Don't even try to compare winning such a low level grass race to placing second in a G1 at Saratoga no less against the reigning Breeders Cup Champ. That to date is the only grass racing history we have for both animals. Once again Curlin has proven far more on the grass than Big Brown has so far.

    One more post from me, starred chestnut, suggesting Curlin is possibly dodging the BC because of their steriod ban is off base a little.  I have previously mentioned Curlin running in Dubai and doing it well where they don't allow any drugs.  I also want to mention 2 other scenarios for you.  Jackson has pretty much hinted he has 1 of 2 options in mind for Curlin after the Woodward.  The 1st would be the BC Turf, where although it's the Turf and not the Classic, still would be under those same steroid ban conditions.  The 2nd would be the Dirt in Japan, which I'm pretty sure is just like Dubai, and doesn't allow any drugs, not even Lasix.

    The BC Classic / BC Turf double has never been done, which seems to be in Jackson's mind and winning in Japan would mean that Curlin would have won races at Gulfstream, Oaklawn, Churchill, Pimlico, Belmont, Monmouth, Saratoga (when he wins the Woodward), Dubai and Japan.  That's 9 different race tracks on 3 different continents in under 2 years with all but 1 being a stakes race!  What more would a horse need to do to be considered the best currently in their country and even the last 30 years?  I know this sounds like a broken record and for those of you who seem to get it, I'm sorry, but for those of you who don't, when Big Brown runs east of the Mississippi and beats a quality group of older horses in a Grade 1 race, I'll be impressed.  Until that time comes, to me, he is very talented no doubt, but very untested and not worthy of horse of the year.  Heck, I was a huge Point Given fan, but I still don't say he was one of the 10 best in the last 20 years because he never faced older horses!

    Finally, I apologize because I can't seem to remember who previously posted this, but whoever did, the point of Jackson possibly being concerned about just the Santa Anita surface and not all synthetics is very valid and an excellent point.  People can't forget that it was just earlier this year that Santa Anita had to cancel racing on multiple occasions because of an unsafe and just plain terrible racing surface.  Who is to say this surface will be much better.  Just 3 weeks of racing to test the surface before the BC is way too risky!  I don't care if people say "well Big Brown's going to race on it", because when it's all said and done, he won't make it there.  He'll be retired before the Classic, just like 1 of my favorites in the last 20 years, Point Given.  

Draynay sorry iv'e watched your comments come long enough. Big Brown is not even in the same catagory as Barbaro, let alone Secretariat, so why do you compare. Also Obivously you didn't watch the haskel or you would have know that your second coming of Secretariat almost got beat by an allowance horse!!!!!!!! Also if you didn't notice Curlin was very competetive when faced with the likes of the top 3yr olds, and he even won. Also last year he went after Lawyer Ron, you know last years top older horse, and beat him too, which is more than i can say for BB. Curlin's connections told the world they were going in the Woodward, and what does BB do? He goes hoping that some track will go and make a special turf race taylor made just for him. If BB is so perfect why didn't he face the challenge JJ threw to him by entering Curlin in the Woodward?! BB is ducking Curlin, period.

Also getting second to one BC Turf winner and beating another in the same race, on his first time racing on Turf doesn't really scream on dimensional turf horse to me. BB may be unbeaten on turf but tell me what kind of horses he beat and how many times he ran on it. Oh, he only ran once against maidens. I'll bet if Curlin got to take on a bunch of maidens in the MOW he would have won by an easy 11 lengths too.

Another thing Curlin has NEVER finished off the board in 13 starts, winning 9. Also he had a 5 race win streak including the Classic and World Cup. Now we look at BB. BB had a 5 race win streak and though he did not finish the Belmont his jocky said if he hadn't had pulled him up he would've most likely finish 4th or 5th. That's off the board!

Should I go on, cause i can. So please stop pushing down everybody's throat that BB is better than Curlin and that Curlin is ducking Curlin. IT IS RIDICULOUS! Am i say BB stinks no. Am i saying youre an idiot no. I am saying your comments sound uneducated yes.

[quote]Big Brown & Curlin

Hmmm well Big brown is your basic allowance or grade 3 horse and Curlin Grade 1 horse. Ther is no comparing the two on any given day. CURLIN is by far the BESTTTTT[/quote]

Michael Boatright 06 Aug 2008 11:38 PM

Okay, I'm very confused, here.  When did the powers that be (TOBA) downgrade the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness, and the Haskell, to Grade III stakes races?  I'm just askin' ....

[quote]TBRacingFan: I couldnt disagree with you any more. By your logic, no underdog should ever face a favorite or an older horse. Why go to Saratoga? Let's see, its the best meet the in the world, it's a great racing surface and it would be a heck of a race. It's all about competition. .... You cant be scared of competition, and that's one reason why Zito is great for the sport. You cant be scared of injury either, ... The trainer knows best, and if BB is hurt, you can bet he wont run again. In the meantime, show up at Saratoga and try to beat the best.[/quote]

jshandler 07 Aug 2008 11:18 AM

Ah .... no, JSH.  By my logic, no sensible owner with an excellent, 'tho quite possibly sore, somewhere, 3 yr old should ever go out of their way to face a HOY 4 yr old .  By my logic, and by a time tested racing idiom, 'Best company for yourself, worst company for your horse.'  That's all I was saying. I was not suggesting that avoiding the confrontation was the best thing for racing, or the 'fans'; I was stating the simple fact that it's never in the best interest of the horse, or its connections, to chase down the best competition.

As far as 'best for the interest of Racing, at large', by all means, sportsmen should be working out the details to manage a meeting, not working on excuses to avoid such.  What is in the best interest of Racing, however, is not always in the best interest of the horse(s) in the equation - indeed, it is rarely in the best interest of the horse.  Need I remind people of Ruffian???  

Regarding injury, and fear of such, I beg to differ.  One can most certainly be 'scared' of injury!!  And surely, it's in the best interest of the horse, the jock, the public, and racing at large, that ALL trainers be 'scared' in injury.  Sadly, the trainer does not always know best - and many a horse that is hurting quite a bit manages to conceal that pain, either by its own determination, or with the assistance of some of the pharmaceutical preparations with which it is often presented.  

[quote]I saw him [Curlin] at the Derby & if you could have seen those muscles on him you would know how he wins so well.[/quote]

Carolyn in ND 07 Aug 2008 11:31 AM

Okay, I'm confused, again.  We are speaking of Street Smart's 2007 Kentucky Derby, yes?  The 2007 Kentucky Derby order of finish, as I recall (but of course, my little grey cells have gotten a bit mushy, of late ...) was Street Smart, Hard Spun, and then Curlin, no?  I'm just askin' ....

To all reading my last post forgive me for many of my spelling and gramatical errors. I am not a very good speller to begin with. I also have a quick temper which finally flared up when I read Draynay's response to Monica V. Natrally when i responded everything i typed was clear to me but now i read my own response and am somewhat embarassed that i let someone get to me so much that i myself sounded like an idiot. On the part where i tell draynay that he is pushing his opinion of bb being better than curlin and curlin ducking curlin, i meant to say curlin ducking BB, that being draynay's oppinion not mine. Again sorry for my tempermental outburst.

Right on The Wiz and LDP!!

I concur in spades. draynay's drivel got old a long long time ago. He's reminds me of Paris Hilton's  white haired old dude who can't get his tongue out of his cheek. Change the story or revise the issue so I can nit pick some more. draynay should be as The Wiz said screaming for Dutrow to take Brownie to the Woodward if he really believed he could beat the Champ on dirt. On second thought draynay don't cause if by some miracle Brownie did go and win we'd never hear the end of your rants.

To date Curlin has proven far more than Big Brown on both dirt and grass ever will given Brownie probably only has 2 more races to go. Brownie's been blessed to be born into the worst class of 3 yr olds I have ever seen. He has faced them either when they weren't matured to their best or faced just plain weak horses period. Judge him by what he faced and how bad they were when he faced them. If they grow up and improve it doesn't make Brownie any better to have beaten them when they lacked experience and class. Two races to go and Brownies connections are purposely ducking Curlin and the Woodward. What a shame.

TBRacingFan,

This years edition of the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Haskell as well as the other Graded Stakes races for 3 yr old's only should all be downgraded based on the talent of those who ran. This is a pathetic group of 3 yr olds to date and the Big Ole Browneye was born under a lucky star to be part of it.

However,no matter how weak the class of animals is the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, Haskell. Travers, etc. will remain where they are at in graded status. Someone has to win each of these races and as in the case of this years editions it doesn't always mean they are facing class equal to the graded status. I don't think that the racing gods ever considered that they would come across a class of 3 yr olds as weak as this one has been so far.

Curlin... let me put it to you this way, is a Mile and a 8th dirt horse.  Plain and simple.  Hard Spun was a miler and his best surface was Poly he would run circles around Curlin on Poly. Hard Spun was often forced to run against Curlin under his terms had Curlin ever ran on his he would have been whipped and whipped good. Curlin caught a wet track in the Breeders Cup or Hard Spun would have been gone! Like I said before, Curlin runs one kind of race on one kind of track.  Big Brown has won on dirt, on turf, and now he will do it on Poly.  Curlin... a dirt only horse... no wins on turf, no wins on Poly.... just dirt. One dimensional horses that don't even try to win the Breeder's Cup are not champions.

LDP sounds like you can't come to grips with the fact Curlin has won nothing since coming back from Dubai. He lost his turf race and almost got passed by a 10 year old. And he beat no one in the Stephen Foster.  My question to EVERYONE is simple... what race established Curlin as horse of the year?  I will give you a hint...it was a little muddy.

Draynay, same question to you. Who has brown beat? NOBODY! Curlin last year in the Classic proved his metal by beating Lawyer Ron, who was an Eclipse Award winner and Eclipse Award Finalist, SS. Oh and i guess that's due to the fact that he's so one demensional. Also In Dubai he beat Vermilion, Jazil, Asiatic Boy, and Premium Tap, by a record amount of lengths. He beat SS on more than one occasion. That track was fast and longer than 11/8. Your horse has run only against maidens on turf not grade 1 company, and chose to avoid Curlin when they announced that the were going to the Woodward! Also tell me who is rated the top horse in the world according to Timeform? CURLIN! Your horse barely beat an allowance horse in the Haskell on DIRT!!! Even in the Triple Crown he had no real competition, and then couldn't even win it. His own jockey didn't have faith in him to pull off the win in the Belmont. If BB is really so good, why doesn't he face Curlin in the Woodward? Jackson is open for the challenge against BB. He gave an unoffical invitation to see who was the better horse. If Dutrow and IEAH seems SO confident in BB, why don't they face the best?

[quote]This years edition of the KY Derby, Preakness, Belmont, and Haskell as well as the other Graded Stakes races for 3 yr old's only should all be downgraded based on the talent of those who ran. This is a pathetic group of 3 yr olds to date[/quote]

Draynot 08 Aug 2008 12:54 PM

Hmmm.  A pathetic group of 3 yr. olds, in 2008, you say, Draynot?  This year's Kentucky Derby 3 year olds ran in 1:22 and change; ran the Preakness Stakes in 1:54 and change; the Belmont in 2:29 and change. Their Haskell was the 6th fastest, of the past 20 years.

Kentucky Derby, Past 20 years, run in 1:22, include: 1988, Winning Colors; 1990, Unbridled; 1993, Sea Hero; 1997, Silver Charm; 1998 Real Quiet; 2007, Street Sense (hmmm ... was not this the KD in which Curlin finished ... hmmmm, what was it, again?  Oh, yes ... third ...; 2008, Big Brown.

Kentucky Derby, Past 20 years, run in over 1:22, include: 1989, Sunday Silence (1:25); 1991, Strike the Gold (1:23); 1992, Lil E. Tee (1:23); 1994, Go For Gin (1:24); 1999, Charismatic, (1:23); 2004, Smarty Jones (1:24); 2005, Giacomo (1:23).

Preakness Stakes, Past 20 years, run in or over 1:54 and change, include: 1988, Risen Star (1:56); 1992, Pine Bluff (1:55); 1993, Prairie Bayou (1:56); 1994, Tobasco Cat (1:56); 1998, Real Quiet, (1:54); 1999, Charismatic (1:55); 2000, Red Bullet (1:56); 2001, Point Given (1:55); 2002, War Emblem (1:56); 2003, Funny Cide (1:55); 2004, Smarty Jones (1:55); 2005, Afleet Alex (1:55); 2006, Bernadini (1:54); 2008, Big Brown (1:54)

Admittedly, only Thunder Gulch and Colonial Affair took more than 2:29 and change, to go the 1.5 mile Belmont ...

Hmmmm.  I think the TOBA has little reason to 'downgrade' this year's 3 yr. old classics to 'Grade III' from their Grade I status, based on the 'quality' of the Class of 2008.  I'd be very happy, as I'm sure would many others, to have any of the first three finishers, of any of the 2008 3 yr. old classics, in my barn.

Wanda, Just wanted to let you know that Harlan's Holliday has 3 fillies in the preferred sale 291,298 on 8/9,  363 on 8/10. You can watch the live video on FT site, also download a catalogue. You said HH one of your favorites. We had a bad storm, you may know races cancelled, think still a go for tomorrow and the sale. Good luck to you, too rough on here for me. Watch the sale and I'll wave, or on second thought I don't want to buy something by accident.

    TBRacing Fan, I guess you missed my post about times and how although they don't lie, they are misleading.  To me, times aren't very irrelevant as a whole.  Tracks change from year to year and even day to day.  Monarchos ran the 2nd fastest winning Derby time ever, does that mean he was the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Kentucky Derby?  Like I stated earlier, if you're playing the time game, you seemed to have left off Curlin's Preakness equalling record time.  This year's 3 year old crop does not stack up to those in the past.  Now I know horses can develop late like Tiznow, Mineshaft, Roses In May, Cigar, etc., but does any of the rest of this 3 year old crop give you even just a subtle hint of developing into one of those types?  Another thing that gives clues at to how good a crop may be is consistency, which this year's 3 year old crop has shown absolutely none.

    Draynay, your point about Hard Spun having to face Curlin under Curlin's terms is absurd. Hard Spun was loose on the lead in Classic and Curlin still chased him down. He was under no pressure leaving the 2nd turn, but still couldn't hold on.  As far as the slop being a factor, come on!  If I recall correctly, the other dirt route races that day were won by Indian Blessing who was loose on the lead at 1 1/16 (not her best distance), War Pass who was loose on the lead at 1 1/8 (not his best distance) and Ginger Punch who was never more than 2 lengths back the whole race and from entering the far turn on, was neck and neck with Hystericalady and they finished 1-2.  Why were those horses able to win from the lead or very near it, especially War Pass and Indian Blessing who no doubt were running longer than they want, but you say Hard Spun couldn't because he was running under Curlin's terms? It doesn't add up to me.

    As far as Curlin winning on only dirt, yes he has only won on dirt, but he hasn't tried synthetics and neither has Big Brown.  Big Brown won on turf and Curlin hasn't, but take Curlin's effort the Man O' War and put that an open allowance or even an overnight stakes on turf and what would you get?  I mean, do they have to race Curlin in a race over turf under those conditions to prove he can run on turf?  Grade 1 stakes placed on turf would me a heck of a lot more to me as a potential breeder than a 1-time maiden turf winner!  And if you keep wanting to say Big Brown can win over anything because of his maiden turf win, then you have to quit saying Curlin is a 1 dimensional dirt/1 1/8 horse.  Curlin won his maiden race at Gulfstream by 12 3/4 lengths over 7 furlongs.  Therefore, by your logic, even though it was just a maiden race, Curlin should be stamped as not only an exceptional dirt route horse, but also a sprint horse.

[quote]TBRacing Fan, I guess you missed my post about times and how although they don't lie, they are misleading.  To me, times aren't very irrelevant[sic - I believe C means times aren't very relevant] as a whole.  Tracks change from year to year and even day to day.  Monarchos ran the 2nd fastest winning Derby time ever, does that mean he was the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Kentucky Derby?  Like I stated earlier, if you're playing the time game, you seemed to have left off Curlin's Preakness equalling record time.  This year's 3 year old crop does not stack up to those in the past.  Now I know horses can develop late like Tiznow, Mineshaft, Roses In May, Cigar, etc., but does any of the rest of this 3 year old crop give you even just a subtle hint of developing into one of those types?  Another thing that gives clues at to how good a crop may be is consistency, which this year's 3 year old crop has shown absolutely none.[/quote]

Curlin 08 Aug 2008 9:25 PM

Hmmmm.  Well, no, Curlin, I did not miss your post about race times, and your opinion regarding their significance (or more correctly, your opinion regarding their lack of significance ... lol!).  I am an old fashioned girl.  I still have Jack's stopwatch (in spite of the fact that it has long since stopped!) Time was important, to 'old timers', and thus it is, to me.   But, my post was not so much about time, it was about the Class of 2008, and the adjective 'pathetic' that was used to describe said 3 yr olds.  My point was, would Dreynot use 'pathetic' to describe any of the horses mentioned, in my post?  I know I would not!

Monarchos' may not have been the 2nd best horse to ever run in the Derby - but he was the very best horse to ever win the Derby - in 2001.  My post, again, was not so much about time, it was about an adjective - 'pathetic'.

You mention that consistancy is an indicator of quality.  If that is the measure (or even one of the measures ...), then I might gently suggest that Big Brown is a consistant winner ...

You remark that this year's crop doesn't stack up to those in the past.  I'd say they stack up, just fine.  One more so than the others, perhaps.

Thanks for the headsup Atthebarn2.I'll check the results cause my video feed is not feeding.

YO,YO gentlemen I said this months ago,if you debate with you know who it just goes on and on in an endless loop. None of it makes any sense so don't buy into it and for crying out loud change the subject!

Wanda, I saw the post on the HH fillies. There were some others in the catalogue I thought looked good. Wow to find the next BB or Curlin. Better yet Secretariat! The other blog itself got wicked. it wasn't even our old friend it was, well, the H man, whoosh. Hey, if I win the lottery I'll buy us a couple great ones, come on here let our homey's in the posse on here know about it. We'll hook up and run em!!  If wishes were wings pigs would fly. (think that's the way my granny puts it)

Hey JordanA I hear you. The 6-49 went last week it was 42 mill or something like that. Man could I do some damage with that kind of flash!I'm having server problems so I'll check F-T later.Have a great day at the races.

PS hows the track?

Wanda, Supposedly fast but the Flying Private angle worked for me since he had some fast works in the slop. I'm the wounded one who stayed home the boys are back in town. I bet on a HH in a tri at Saratoga Lukas on the top and another Storm Cat did a-ok today. Yes I'm still waiting for my HS guy. Probably next week, my leg put a kink in that. Hate the ISP, blech. Try watchin a streaming video on that, like they are all on meds, including the bidders, handlers and auctioneer.  NO I haven't been taking pain pills for my fracture, I'm high on winning a chunk of change.

Just checked Saratoga results. You had the Tri in that race?

Nicely bred one that won the last.

Wanda, I had the exacta in the 2nd with Flying Private on top, had 50 across on him. The tri wouldv'e been great but didn't have the show horse. Had the tri in the 8th with Nautical Storm on top, 50 across on him. Hit a tri at DM and just missed a 1 grand tri at DM in the La Jolla, but got a small exacta, 50 across on Sky Cape at 12 to 1. Didn't do bad overall. Our sale fund a few hundere or thousand at a time. The HH fillies were Not Sold at Saratoga, the first one went to 90 and the second to 63, more not sold than sold 52 was the median.

Boy I'd hate to be a breeder right now with the way the sales are going. Thanks for the imfo,it's very kind of you to keep me imformed.

Let me be included in the Big Brown camp---simply the best--won Derby by five from the TWENTY...

Wanda,

That's for sure, maybe the 3 chim guys are having second thoughts. Matthew, only a (5)day(s) late and a $ short. Another Drive by.

TBRacingFan,

My point has been that the Big Ole Browneye was lucky to be born into what has been outside of him a very weak group of 3 yr olds when he faced them.

As for the KY Derby the place time for the filly was 2:02.8 and the first colt to come in ran a 2:03.6. Those times are nothing to write home about. Even Duck Duck Dutrow admitted after the race that this years competition did not amount to much of anything.

As for the Preakness the place time for Macho Uno was 1:56 and that was mediocre again.  

The Belmont was run in a very slow 2:29.6 and the place time was recorded on a sundial as 2:30.4, the show at 2:31.4. We all know where Brownie finished here.

That's been his "competition" as he faced them so far. For the most part he has been facing horses with very questionable class prior to his races against them. Those who had won Graded Stakes before he faced them were winners by default (someone in the class had to win). As a whole this years crop does not stack up well against previous classes thus far.

The Big Ole Browneye matured quicker than the rest of his class.

They are starting to come around a bit now but he's been extremely fortunate to be the only one who matured to the next level when he faced them all. I have qualified my opinion of this class in previous blogs to state that they are the weakest group TO DATE, meaning when Brownie faced them.

[quote]Even Duck Duck Dutrow admitted after the race that this years competition did not amount to much of anything[/quote]

draynot 11 Aug 2008 11:32 AM

Hmmmm. I have a new prayer:  God, save me from the day I might use anything 'DDD' has said, to support any argument I might make, or to defend any comment I might post!

I'm guessing, Draynot, that you're not of the same opinion as Curlin, regarding Curlin's dismissive attitute toward the stopwatch, as you support your position (that the 3 yr. olds of 2008 have, shall we say, instead of 'a lack of class', a certain 'lightness of being') with times.  I suppose I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only punter who observes, and considers, the stopwatch.  That said, I find no particular reason to pay much attention to the finish times of the place and show horse. The place and show horse often prompt the winner's finish time, no?  The point I was making was that the finish times of this year's classics don't, IMHO, support your suggestion that the TOBA 'demote' the Triple Crown 2008 series  to 'Class III' stakes.

Denis of Cork ran the 2008 Belmont 1.5 in 'sundial' time of 2:30, you say?  Hmmmm .... what ancient instrument was used, I wonder, to record Thunder Gulch's Belmont (1995, on a fast track - 2:32) ... lol!

If times are so 'insignificant', then why is it that to a man, there isn't a race-going citizen who can't tell you that the fractions of Secretariat's performance in the Derby decreased, instead of increasing, with each quarter; or quote the incredible finish of 2:24 flat, for the 1.5 Belmont?  I'm just askin' ....

In all of this bickerin' over which horse is better I have to say that people sometimes just get mean...we all love which ever horse has captured our hearts and react quickly to defend him when we feel he is being attacked unfairly...we allow one individual to dictate pretty much how we act and I believe many know who I am talking about but no matter how much you love Big Brown or how much you (I for one) love Curlin we must not let ourselves start getting so vicious with each other. As much as Draynay drives me up the wall respect him for defending Big Brown the way that he does though he may be wrong in his assessment of who is the better horse give him his dues for jumping to Big Brown's defense. I believe that in time we may get the answer and Draynay will not be happy with the outcome but Big Brown is a fine racehorse and I hope he continues to do well though I am not a huge fan I respect what the horse has done and done well and as for my beautiful Curlin he will continue to awe us with his beauty and power and though not every Thoroughbred can be "great" Curlin is showing that he is very close to it.

Jason - have you read what Ivarone's response to Mr. Jackson's was, I thought that throwing the amount of money around that Ivarone was suggesting is a bit tacky, I don't think that Ivarone is being very gentlemanly. Your thoughts?

This seems like a classic case of BB and co. dodging the showdown everyone wants to see: showdown at the spa!

If Dutrow and Iavarone weren’t concerned with losing to the best horse in the world, Curlin, they wouldnt be postponing the inevitable until November!

However, with stud fees, purses to prey upon, and all around hype and publicity dictating crucial decisions, one has to question whether the Iavarone type management is the next “Don King” style of horse racing.

Curlin, on the other hand, takes on all challenges, on all surfaces, distances and tracks. He entertains and performs for racing fans without hesitation. His trainer/owner as well as jockey thrive on the pure enjoyment of the sport and its fans.

If these two never meet, it may well be the destiny Curlin deserves!