Here here. Very well stated. I whole heartedley agree with all the points.

Jackson and Asmussen have been saying for most of the year that it was a very miniscule chance that Curlin would run in the Classic.  That was long before Ivarone and co determined they would run Big Brown on a turf race before the Classic.  

Jackson has given Ivarone every chance to face them and Ivarone has declined.  Curlin has little to prove.  He won the Classic (among other races) last year and against better horses than Big Brown has faced all season.  He raced against the best in the world in the World Cup earlier this year.  Big Brown is the one with much to prove.  He's obviously the best three year old this year.  Now he has to prove himself against his elders.  Curlin is the best horse (in the US) currently in training.  If Big Brown wants any chance at HOY, he needs to face Curlin.  

Jackson and Asmussen aren't the only ones leery of the Breeder's Cup surface.  Both Zito and Frankel have stated there's a good chance they won't be sending their top guns to the BC (i.e. Commentator and Ginger Punch) because of the synthetic track.  I don't see people giving THEM a hard time because of it.

The Breeder's Cup isn't the be all to end all.  Yes, it is one of the ways to test the best against the best.  But it should hardly be the single determination of who's best.

Besides, there's no guarantee Big Brown will like a synthetic track.

Although I can see where both sides are coming from, and I respect the Big Brown camp's decision on how to run their horse, I feel like Jackson has a point here.  In decades past, a lot of the most exciting years in racing featured rivalries and match-ups.  Foremost in my mind are Easy Goer and Sunday Silence and of course Affirmed and Alydar.  In both of those rivalries, the horses met up multiple times, and not always in major stakes races.  I think horse racing needs more competition, not just in the Classic division but at every distance on every surface.  It saddens me to think that we have reached a day and age when we have two standouts, each racing only a handful of times against sometimes sub-par fields, and never against each other until the Breeders Cup at the end of the year.  And while the Breeders Cup does determine champions on a world stage, relying on a single race to say who is absolutely the best seems wrong to me.  If a horse has a bad trip or some other mishap, who are we to say that he still isn't the best in the world?  Because he didn't win the Classic on the world stage, it's hard for a lot of people to say if he is -- especially for a horse like Big Brown, whose Classic is almost definitely his last race.

Champions don't worry about surfaces. Champions perform. Place money which is 20% of $5,000,000 is $1,000,000. That will help dry the tears of the loser.

Jason,

I agree with some of what you said but in the same vein that it's not the right fit for BB, Curlins connections don't think the Classic on synthetic is the right fit for him. Whether they are right or not I don't know. Maybe the colt has shown them something we don't know about as far as the synthetic. The SA surface, is 1 month enough time, do we really know if they aren't going to have any issues? Del Mar took the whole meet last year plus to get their surface close to right. SA had the whole meet, never did get it.  It's too bad that one race on one day decides the champion, but that's the way it is. I just kind of wonder though since BB made his name on the dirt tracks, the first two legs of the TC that maybe the big face off shouldn't be on dirt. Read his connections said the 8 weeks was a little too long off, 4 weeks too short I don't know what to think any more.

I agree. What tune would BB's connections be singing if he ends up hating the synthetic? I'm amazed that anyone is giving weight to Dutrow and Iavarone's comments after the Haskell. If you stop and think about each facet of their comments about Big Brown's superiority to Curlin they're immediately laughable - did they miss the Dubai World Cup? Nevermind the terrific head-to-head battles with Street Sense in the Preakness and "a filly" in the Belmont. Sure Big Brown was never beaten by a filly, but can we all remember that Eight Belles was probably his most legitimate threat in the Derby? Considering how inconsistent this three-year-old crop is I'd think Dutrow wouldn't want to talk down the class of BB's competition too much.

Jackson also clearly appreciates the history and value of classic late summer and fall races for three-year-olds & up that are falling by the wayside because of the Breeder's Cup. I agree that the BC is an excellent way to showcase international championship competition and showcase the best of the best, but it definitely takes its toll on these races which in some ways used to be like multiple mini BC classics each year.

Big Brown does have a lot to prove, and I am somewhat shocked that they would consider running him in the Pennsylvania Derby in part to avoid a challenge with older horses, including Curlin. I'd think a loss against softer company (though hopefully unlikely) would deal a more serious blow to his stud value than an honest showing in defeat to Curlin.

How can anyone fault BB's connections for sticking with their goal of winning the Classic?  Yes, everyone in the world would love to see a BB vs. Curlin match up but its simply not going to happen unless Curlin's connections have a change or heart and run him in the Classic. Either that, or both run back in late November at Churchill in the Clark Handicap.

Personally, I don't think you can point the finger at either party here and place blame if it never happens. I don't think either's connections are "ducking" the others. I think its simply a matter of goals being different and timing not being right..

I agree, champions should show their greatness regardless of surface - hasn't Iavarone repeatedly said they're picking tracks and spots they know Big Brown will like and perform well on (not too dry, not to hard, etc.)? Sounds to me like he needs the right track to perform, not that he apprently brings his own. I'm not saying this absolves Curlin in all this surface discussion, but again, these statements from Iavarone in light of those he's firing at Jackson seem a little hypocritical to say the least.

Jason - I couldn't agree more!  I am no fan of the Big Brown connections by any means - but I had to grudgingly admit that their stand on going to the Cup and why it should be the final showdown between the two horses actually made reasonable sense.

I have such admiration for Jackson.  He has taken a horse that was tainted by Midnight Cry's "alleged" criminal wrongdoing, guided him through a HOY campaign, had the vision to try for something unprecedented by attempting the turf and the Arc and seems to have true passion and perception regarding all that's wrong - and right - about this game.

But I'm starting to feel that it's Jackson - not Iavarone - who is dodging at this point.  No matter how he tries to downplay the BC as not worth running in again, the simple fact is it is the big end of year showdown that had a lot of bearing on Eclipse voting.  

It DOES matter - and he SHOULD be willing to put Curlin in against the best the world has to offer - including Big Brown.

I've concluded - and this is just supposition - that he may know something that we don't.  I really wonder if they've already tested Curlin on synthetics without the media getting wind of it and found him lacking.  I can't rationalize any other reason for so adamantly refusing to run in the BC.  

Either he knows the horse won't run on it - or he has an irrational phobia about synthetics.  And he doesn't strike me a a guy with many phobias.

Synthetic surfaces are here to stay and eventually any horse considered worth its salt will have to compete over it - including Curlin.  

And here's a prediction - if Big Brown wins the Classic - he is Horse of the Year.  I don't care if Curlin wins the Woodward and the Gold Cup and the Clark...the Derby/Preakness/Haskell/Classic would  trump any other combination.  And deservedly so.

So suck it up, Mr. Jackson, and run your champion at Santa Anita!

Jason, Yes that is true,but Mike said he didn't want to take BB back to Belmont after the problems there, plus they said they were looking for a turf race at one point. I guess my problem is having the who's the best decided on one day, one race on an unproven track that last time I or any of my buddies drove by there, the surface was piled in the parking lot. That's the way the cookie crumbles but I don't have to like it and I guess neither does Curlin's connections who,by the way aren't any more my favorite people than BB's connections are.  

The contender to a title always meets the reigning champ in a venue of the champs choosing. Curlin has NOTHING to prove..BB does.

An unknown surface is ridiculous as the ONLY test. I support them meeting in either of the two classic dirt races and a meeting at the BC (if BB's feet can handle the dirt one more time)

Jackson and Assmussen have been quiet and dignified when it has come to running Curlin, and all his many accomplishments.  IEAH and Dutrow have been loud and full of bravado and verbal challenges.  The fact is Curlin has proven himself and Big Brown hasn't, especially after the Haskell and how much it took out of him.  Jackson gave IEAH and Dutrow a chance to show up and prove their big talk, and they are dodging it.  If they were totally certain that their words could match the results, they'd show up, especially since it's always been a fact that Curlin was not likely go to the breeders cup. If you are going to defend BB's reasons for not running with Curlin at the Woodward or Jockey Club Gold Club, then it makes sense you'd understand why Curlin would not be put on untested synthetic tracks or any surface that doesn't seem right.  He's already done what a proven champion needs to do. He already won the Classic.  Remember Dutrow's remarks to any number of possible problems - "no problem".  Well, you'd think this would be just another "no problem".

Unfortunately we'll be left with BB's connections bravado drifting on the wind, and Jackson's dignified and sportsman attempt to give them a chance to prove themselves left hanging.  I say, Jackson gave them their chance and now Curlin should just move on and do what's lined up for him.  Dutrow made some very harsh (and rather ignorant) criticisms of Curlin, and it looks like they just wont put their horse where their mouth is.  

I think it was admirable of Jess to make Big Brown's owners two perfectly good races. If they want to treat their horse like a hot house plant, then so be it!

I understand we have horses that aren't as strong or resilient as they were 50 years ago, but really, whose fault is that?

I don't know the whole idea of running BC Races on synthetics seems a bit dangerous. I don't like  California racing because of their irrational decisions they've made this past year and a half.

In all sports, not just horse racing, you have to beat the best to be the best. If Big Brown wants to be the best he has to face Curlin, not the other way around. Ivarone may be saying that the BC Classic was the plan from day one, but that plan meant nothing until Big Brown proved that he would be a worthy contender. By that time, Jackson had already indicated that Curlin was not being pointed to the Classic. Ivarone had plenty of time to put Big Brown in a position to race Curlin, but intentionally chose not to.

Big Brown has everything to lose and nothing to gain by racing Curlin, except in the situation that exists for the Breeders' Cup. The additional variables created by the synthetic surface, large field, and international contenders all weigh in Big Brown's favor. No matter what, the losers of that race will be able to claim the surface, or the hot weather, or the strange track contributed to their horse's downfall.

Ivarone's determination to go in the Classic, after Jackson clearly indicated Curlin would skip it, does closely follow the path the connections have taken with Big Brown. From a business standpoint, it would be suicide to race against Curlin under normal circumstances. The stud fee Big Brown will have to demand for Three Chimneys to cover their costs would seem absurd if Curlin beat Big Brown. Who would send their mare to Big Brown next year over Curlin? One has a much more fashionable pedigree, excelled against what everyone considered an excellent 3YO crop last year, and won the world's richest race. The other has a questionable bloodline, beat up on a mediocre group on the Triple Crown trail, until he got beat by a maiden among others in the Belmont, and whose connections are afraid to outright face the best horse in the world.

The BC Classic will be the ultimate race this year, if you want to stud your horse in California, but a dirt race is necessary to determine who is better between Curlin and Big Brown.

I absolutely agree that Curlin should run in the Classic.  If he can handle the slop, he can handle synthetic. If they want TV ratings this year, get the two together and it will happen.

Big Brown is 3 years old, Curlin 4.

Is it really fair to compare them anyway? As a 3 year old Curlin was beat by the Great filly Rags-to-Riches in the Belmont. Give Big Brown a chance to grow up a little.

Perhaps Curlin's people are afraid of him and want the match before he does.

If more tracks continue to adopt synthetic surfaces, some trainers and owners are going to become endangered or extinct...progress or maybe adaptation is going to be important. If Curlin and Big Brown can race on both dirt and grass...what excuse is here for hating on synthetic?

where i come from there is a saying that goes put your money where your mouth is  .that means you rick dutrow.you ran your mouth on national tv many times and now you wont back it up.if big brown wins the classic and curlin skips but wins race in japan curlin will still be horse of the year.

Cgriff,

The IF is a really big IF. I guess we could say IF BB had won the Belmont he would've been the TC winner and automatic Horse of the year. Like a big time trainer said, that's why they run the race and just don't bronze em and put em in the infield.

Just like BB didn't find the Belmont track to his liking(from what MI is saying) maybe Curlin doesn't like the synthetic.

Jason, as far as selling this to the racing fans. That would take a heck of a lot of marketing. Many are so turned off by the bickering, rhetoric, bragging and negativity that the real losers are the two horses and the fans who just can't get past it. IMHO.

As far as SA, maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention but I haven't heard the usual 'yes absolutely we're going to the BC' coming from too many factions.

The comment about champions and surfaces I would agree with except for one caveat.  Turf champions aren't expected to run on the dirt to prove themselves and dirt champions aren't expected to run on the turf.  Giving Jackson crap about not wanting to run Curlin on a synthetic track would be like giving them a hard time for not wanting to run him on turf.  Why should they when most horses don't run on both grass and dirt including many Eclipse champions.  Synthetic tracks aren't dirt and horses react differently to it just like they do with grass and dirt.

And doesn't anyone think that Curlin might be invited to run in the Japan Cup?  If he were to run there and run well while Big Brown lost in the Classic, would you honestly give Big Brown HOY over Curlin in that situation?

Finally, Big Brown may not end up liking synthetic track.  Not all horses who do well on grass do well on synthetic, Wait a While being a prime example.

Brilliant ! Simply Brilliant Jason. Beautifully written and well said, Jason you brought a tear to my eye.  It is time to stop all the nonsense and realize the Breeders Cup this year offers no advantages to anyone and will bring out the true champion. If Curlin decides not to show to defend his crown he has every right to lose it.  Big Brown will be there Mr. Jackson... instead of running Curlin against fields of 4 how about getting him ready for the real championship in October.  The best 3 year old of this century is waiting for you.  Defend the crown or have it stripped from you...your choice.

In many ways I'm also somewhat bewildered about the aversion to running Curlin in the classic, but again I think it stems from Jackson's desire to do something unusual by today's standards - the Kentucky Derby and BC Classic have sort of become the be all end all of this sport (as far as most of the non-religious-race-fan audience is concerned, those are, in some ways, the only two races of the year). Although not without its flaws, it seems like his strategy is sort of an old-fashioned approach to drawing more attention to the sport - because so far it doesn't seem like much has changed through the current spring classics for three-year-olds and fall championships peaks (again, in terms of drawing more than intermittent attention to the sport).

   Quite honestly I can't imagine Big Brown being horse of the year, even if he does win the Classic. While he was impressive in the Derby and Preakness and managed to win the Haskell, I still don't think you can argue that  it's a clear-cut decision that he's HOY over Curlin or anyone else (he may be in the end, but again, I think other horses have done more against better competition already). Let's not forget the Curlin was HOY last year after NOT winning the Derby, the Belmont, or the Haskell but showing up for each, performing honestly and winning the Preakness and Jockey Club Gold Cup (so he faced older horses before the BC Classic). As far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy if BB ran against some older, proven competition before the Classic. I know it won't happen because from the beginning the plan has been to take the safest route to keep his record and stud status intact. And really, this stuff about them pointing for the Classic with him all along - that's true (whether it's explicitly stated or not) for probably 80% of classic winners that get going early in the year, so I'm not really that impressed with that argument.

Never thought I would actually find myself, like Cgriff and others, siding with BB's connections, yet I do. Jackson reminds me of another lawyer in sports, the owner of the Baltimore Orioles, Peter Angelos, who is use to intimidating others to get what he wants, and usually succeeding.

Bottom Line: more evidence that Jackson, like so many others in the States, does not fully appreciate what the BC means, and frankly, I think in many ways it has come to mean more in Europe than it does in the States. Hence the reason why I was royally ticked when George Washington broke down in his second try in the BC Classic (talk about a bold move running a turfer by pedigree and a miler by run on the dirt in the BC Classic, not once, but twice) and it was treated like an after thought here, when in Europe their beloved "Gorgeous George" going down had an impact akin to Barbaro (both, ironically, bred my the Jacksons).

11:00AM - With all due respect, it's been almost a sure thing since BB won the Derby, and an absolute lock since his run in the Belmont that they're not going to risk him staying around to run as a 4 year old. If there's going to be a face-off with Curlin it'll have to be this year. Plus, quality 3 year olds can certainly beat older horses (Curlin did it last year).

Iavarone & Dutrow are the ones ducking Curlin. Why? Curlin would stomp Big Brown into the soil (or synthetic fibers) of any track they met at, in any race. Period.

Brown had to work extremely hard to beat a field in the Haskell that included only 2 stakes winners in the bunch. Trying turf next time out? Yeah, because he might run into some softer competition and the track might be better for his weak feet.

Jess Jackson did the sporting thing, issued an invitation to the trash talking Big Brown connections. He might not have done so had they not been talking so big. They had their chance to back that big talk up, and they are making all types of excuses why they can't do it.

Big Brown run in the Classic? Now that's the long-shot of the year. He'll probably be retired for some phantom reason well in advance of that test, where he would actually be required to meet some REAL competition for once. Be serious, Brown can't beat Henrythenavigator or Curlin. He's completely over-rated and his connections know it.

The Big Brown connections are desperate to redeem his stud value after his major flop in the Belmont.  I think that the Breeders' Cup is overrated in determining Eclipse Award winners.  In my mind BB has a whole lot more to prove than Curlin.  Who knows?  If he were still in racing at age 4 he might become like Curlin but IEAH already made the deal.  The only way that BB gets horse of the year is if he beats Curlin.  I'm so sick of all the bragging coming from the BB camp.  Jackson is offering several opportunities for a Curlin/BB matchup but it's Iavarone who is saying that there is only ONE option - the BC Classic.

I think synthetics are over-hyped as being the savior of horseracing.  One or two years of studies doesn't prove anything.  It was a really BAD move to put the BC at Santa Anita two years in a row.  I don't blame Jackson at all for not wanting to race Curlin on an untested surface especially with the Cushion Track debacle.

I'm a fan of Curlin and Big Brown but there owners and trainers are a different story. I like Jackson and Asmussen because their willing to try different things for this horse not seen before (i.e. the Arc) by an American DIRT horse. While IEAH and Dutrow I just don't care for I mean Dutrow says Big Brown can beat Curlin yet when the oppurtunity to face Curlin is available they don't. So to me Dutrow and IEAH are afraid of Curlin because the Haskell on Aug 3rd is 3 weeks and 6 days before the Woodward which is prefect for resting up but if they want more days off for Big Brown then 27 days then the Jockey Club Gold Cup a month after the Woodward would give Big Brown about 50 days off which is more than enough rest. But just to kill the Big Brown vs. Curlin battle they say Big Brown's next race is on the turf which is obviuosly an attempt to avoid racing Curlin because unlike Dutrow's comments they know that Big Brown can't beat Curlin.

Having watched how Santa Anita and Magna does things, the only thing that will run well on the new track at SA will be race cars, how about making it the "Santa Anita 500" and wait with the BC until a real track can host it again.

This is exactly what is wrong with racing in 2008. Instead of racing against the best (and often) anyone with a good horse trys to avoid any serious competition and retire the horse ASAP to stud to make the big bucks. Both horses should run in the Jockey Club AND the Breeders' Cup if they want to be considered a great champion. There is a full month between the races, and any champion should be able to handle that easily. At least Curlin has faced some very good horses in his career. Who has Big Brown beaten? In the Haskell he was full out to beat an allowance horse. The Derby and Preakness? Name one good horse he beat. The Belmont? A joke. Both parties should remember it is horseracing, where the tradition is my horse can beat your horse--on the racetrack.

The references to Curlin being beaten by a "filly" come up enough to warrant attention.  Rags to Riches is undeniably one the most talented and challenging horses we'll see in decades.  In a year of 3 year olds "like we'll probably never see again in decades", Curlin ran a huge race and a huge duel and lost by a head to a GREAT filly.  In this race she also beat the amazing Hard Spun and a few others that we've all held in great esteem.  Filly or colt, let's look at their class and GET OVER their gender.  If we don't then Dutrow's (and other's)attitudes linger and it prolongs the blindness such biases show, and renders horseracing as a sport that is living under some archaic rock.

aspradling, Yes synthetic may be the track of the future, but as already mentioned, a synthetic surface, never run on before, still sitting in the parking lot a little over a week ago at a track that had nightmares last year is a little too uncertain to more than just Curlin's connections.

The Breeders Cup used to be the end all, beat all championship day for thorobreds.  It has disqualified itself from that title by running successive events on synthetics.  It is simply a novelty now.  Synthetics, while they may be safer, have proven themselves to be great equalizers.  They take a great horse and make him/her ordinary.  They make ordinary horses extraordinary.  Running on synthetics is akin to asking the best in track and field to race with roller skates on and then claiming the event to be a championship of some sort.  In dirt racing, by and large, when there is a superior horse or horses in a given race, they distance themselves from those less talented in that race.  On synthetics, 10 of the twelve horses in a race are bunched withing a length or two of each other in the final furlong - it makes for great excitement for the bettor, but for the race fan, it does little but devolve the sport into a roll of the dice.  If synthetics become the norm, there will never again be devastating performances like Secretariat's Belmont, Big Brown's Derby, Affirmed & ALydar's or Easy Goer & SS duels; we will be left with hockey, where everyone is as good as everyone else, everyone makes the playoffs, and every year/race puts forth a "best" performer.  What a shame.

OK, here's my take. If you're going to call someone out, like Dutrow did after the Haskell, then you need to be ready to take the fight to them, not just stand in a corner and stick your tongue out. If it's OK for BB to not run in the Woodward or the JCGC because it's not a good fit, then it's OK for Curlin to not run in the BCC because it's not a good fit.

I also vehemently disagree that the BC Classic decides HOTY. Under that logic, if Henrythenavigator runs and wins, he should be our horse of the year. If Student Council or Well Armed runs and wins, he should be our HOTY. (as you can see, I still haven't gotten over Lahoudood winner turf mare over Nashoba's Key or Precious Kitten). I believe a horse can easily be HOTY without winning or even running in the BC C simply because I feel it's supposed to be an award for year-long effort, not one day.

Draynay,

"The best 3 year old of this CENTURY."

Really? Let's not overexaggerate here.

Bradgm,

You bet it is a big IF!  And believe me - I'm the last person to hand HOY to Big Brown on a plate.  I suspect he is not the horse everyone assumed he was to begin with.  Talented - yes.  Shades of brilliance the first part of the year?  Absolutely.  But his meltdown in the Belmont and his run in the Haskell make me think he has peaked and is on the downturn.  I seem to be among the few who see his work on turf prior to the Haskell and a search for turf to run on prior to the Cup a bad feet getting worse - not a need to prep for synthetic.

Honestly - I'm not going to be shocked if he doesn't make it to the Breeders Cup!

But based on what I've seen - it would take a win by Curlin at an "Arc" level to supplant Big Brown as HOY IF Big Brown wins the Classic.  Curlin can run against short fields in the Woodward an Gold Cup and win (I'd expect no less) - but I honestly don't know where else he could run - including Japan or Hong Kong - where the prestige and challenge would supplant a horse who won America's two biggest races and three other Grade I races as well.

I just think that Curlin should show up at the Cup.  Maybe if they'd been more patient with him on turf - he could have had a shot at the BC Turf - which would (I  think) give him a legit shot at HOY - even if BB won the Classic.  

But it looks like they aren't returning to that surface...and without the Classic - they will be in the unenviable position of having to wait and see if BB wins before they will know whether Curlin has another HOY in the offing.  

If it were me - unless I knew that he couldn't run on the surface - I'd rather take it to Big Brown than wait and see.  That's what Howard did for Seabiscuit.  Riddle danced and dodged and set all sorts of conditions regarding a match with War Admiral, and Howard finally agreed to the terms at Pimlico.  And wouldn't you know - the older champion cleaned the 3-yr-old's clock.

Jackson's a sportsman.  Take the sporting shot if your horse is truly that great.  Run the race in the obvious venue.  Or don't - but don't keep issuing challenges to coax BB to run in circumstances totally ideal to Curlin.

That's the one thing about synthetic - neither have run on it (supposedly) so no one has an edge.  It's neutral territory for both.  Run and let the chips fall where they may.  It's what's best for this battered and bruised sport - and would be a marketing dream.

Curlin and Big Brown need a show down, somehow, someway, somewhere, because if they dont it will be one of the biggest let downs in racing history for their fans.

This is ridiculous.  There is no good reason why Big Brown can not run in the Wood or the Gold Cup.  "The Haskell took alot out of him", well, if that is true than this horse is not as GREAT as people think-Personally I think Hard Spun and Street Sense were better. Someone here already said it,  Curlin has nothing to prove.  They know where Curlin will be running and THEY know they better run the other direction.

That's OK, I'm waiting for both of them to run in BC and watch Student Council blow by both of them to end his wonderful career...I mean he's run the second fastest dirt Beyer this year for a mile or more races, 112, and that was for second to Commentator...in the Whitney if I remember right. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

Although I don't have statistical evidence to support me, I would guess that it would be more dangerous for horses to run over surfaces that they are not familiar with. Different surfaces require different styles of movement, which is why I agree with Jackson. He has given BB every opportunity to meet on a straight dirt course because he does not want to risk injury to his horse due to an unfamiliar surface.

Additionally, I think that is is just arrogant to assume that the Breeder's Cup is the be-all, end-all of horse racing. I find it to be typically American to assume that you must win the Breeder's Cup (which Curlin already did) in order to satisfy the critics. Racing is huge in Hong Kong and Japan, and I think it would be very sporting of Jackson to take his horse and race him against the best that the East has to offer.

In short, Big Brown's connections talk and then scurry for cover. By the end of October (if not sooner) they will be scurrying for the breeding shed. Meanwhile, Jackson kept his horse in training and traveled to Dubai to compete against the best in the world. Jackson said in the beginning that the Classic was not on their radar; they have already won it. If Big Brown's connections want to win Horse of the Year, they need to show me more that he can do more than beat up on mediocre opponents. Curlin HOY!

Tiznowbaby.... Let me put it to you this way... If Big Brown wins he is HOY no doubt end of story.  If he does not then Curlin is whether he shows up or not.  If he chooses to let Big Brown run for the title and he does not defend it he deserves to lose it.  REMEMBER this... he won the the title of HOY because he won the Breeders Cup... if he won it there he can lose it there.  Show up and remove or doubt or is he just a one trick (dirt) pony.

A race between Curlin and Big Brown would be as good as it gets, at least as far as the hype goes. Curlin has been around long enough and ran against the worlds best to prove that he is deserving of being the number one ranked horse in the world. Big Brown has shown eye popping promise. However, he is only halfway through is three year old campaign and has only run once in the last two and a half months. He has a history of foot problems. Big Brown may not be able to remain sound enoungh to show how good he could be. Clearly Curlin is at the top of his game, is fit, sound and ready to go. Big Brown is not.

A Curlin and Big Brown match up has little to do with surface,it is about fitness and soundness which Big Brown's connections are trying to manage.  How often can you run a horse with cronic foot problems and keep him sound? Was he sound in the Belmont? Was it the loose shoe? Was he just outrun and pulled up? Two months later his next race did not answer much.

Big Brown still has to show us more, to prove more. Curlin has little to prove.  

Synthetic surfaces are here to stay and I have nothing but high hopes for them. But we in the USA do not have enough experience installing and maintaining them. That will take some time. Holding the Breeders Cup at a track that is installing a new surface and that has the recent history of problems with its surface that Santa Anita has had is not a good idea or a safe bet for horse, rider, or fan.  

IF both Curlin and Big Brown teams think their horses are the best of bests on the earth, they should make the Match Race just as Seabiscuit met War Admiral in 1 and 3/16 miles dirt course at the Pimlico Race Course in 1938. Both Curlin and Big Brown won Preakness Stakes (1 and 3/16 miles) and they should race at that Race Course after the Breeders Cup.

The onus is on Big Brown because the connections have called out and disparaged Curlin. Curlin is the champ. The champ doesn't have to respond to challengers. It's really that simple. If Iavarone and Dutrow are going to run their mouths, back it up.

Curlin's camp have made no such remarks towards Big Brown, made it clear from the beginning they were worried about the track and Santa Anita and have been very open about where they are running and when.

There is NO reason why Big Brown can't show up and run at the Gold Cup. The four-week break before the Breeders Cup might not be ideal but Curlin proved last year, it's an excellent prep. It'd be a fair race on a fair track, with a good field if Commentator shows up, and would allow Big Brown's connections to make up for the Belmont Stakes.

And since I live in Connecticut...I could go and watch it. =)

Cgriff, Well no one has run on the SA surface, unless the rodents that they hopefully got rid of have reappeared and were having match races on the pile of synthetic surface. The horses as great as they both may or may not be aside, this a tougher sale than we might think. Die hard race fans, absolutely, casual BC, TC fans? possibly, the viewers who would get caught up in the hype about two beautiful colts who have huge accomplishments between them but the humans on both sides are not totally likeable, on the up and up for whatever reasons (both trainers with impending drug positive supensions) I think that might be a tougher sell. It has been in past.

Bryce, the BC more important in Europe? How many have we had ship over here?  I didn't hear the owner or trainer of the Million winner saying yes we will supplement, we will consider it, they brushed it off.

Jackson is the best thing that has happened to racing in years. A class act. The dodge by Ivarone fits the bill of his past.  I take nothing away from Big Brown, a great racehorse but using the BC Classic as the "target all along" knowing that Jackson has all along made it known there would be no synthetic start is a dodge.

Not to be disrespectful js, but if you have evidence you need to show it. After all that is what this whole debate is about in racing, whether surface matters. Statistical evidence so far is unclear on this issue because there has not been a significant statistical difference between dirt and synthetic; however, synthetic surfaces are very new. It may be that familiarity will bring down causality rates. It is just too early to tell. If you have evidence that suggests that surface doesn't matter I would love to see it. I prefaced my comment by saying that I can't back it up with evidence just as you can't back yours up with evidence.

The turf is generally a safer surface. In Hong Kong, most racing is done on turf and rates of catastrophic injuries are much lower than in the United States; hence, considering the evidence, it seems possible that transitioning to the turf is inherently less dangerous than transitioning to the dirt. Synthetic is said to be close to turf but no one has seen the surface yet and they won't until the bc. I don't blame Jackson for being cautitious

In my opinion, Henrythenavigator beats them both, and Curlin will beat Big Brown. Brown has faced and beaten third and fourth raters. He hasn't come close to facing the caliber of horse flesh that Curlin has faced and beaten.

anyone that watched Big Browns last two races knows this horse has little chance against a Breeders Cup Classic field, no reason for Curlin to show up to a race that Big Brown is not even going to be favored in, especially after Big Brown races again and shows there are issues from top to bottom with team IEAH

So that I understand, you are arguing for a race to decide Horse of the Year, where Curlin will probably not give his best effort because his trainer is generally not as successful on it? Well now that you put it that way, I just can't understand why Jess Jackson doesn't want to meet under those circumstances.....that is a puzzler for sure!

It's not often I agree with Dutrow AND Jackson, but I do - on ONE point - they have to do what's best for their horses, not what we want to see.

If BB's feet are sore and they think he only has a race or 2 left in him, then pick his spots carefully.  If you have Curlin in your stable and have no data on the strip at Santa Anita but know they got it wrong the first time, then maybe joining Evening Attire and others who MIGHT remain on the sidelines is prudent.

I actually like Jackson's plan.  The Woodward and the JCGC used to be the stars of a wonderful fall of racing.  Curlin has won the BC Classic and he won at Dubai and he's beaten some of the best and lost to some really good horses.  He's come out fighting at different tracks in different countries and brought us a lot of pleasure.  If his connections don't want to risk an untried synthetic strip, then don't.

BB was a wonderfully fast young horse who appears to have soundness issues.  IF he needs 2 or 3 months between races, well, then he does.  Give it to him.  But don't gripe because other horses don't need it.

If these horses meet, that's fine and I'd love to see it.

But if they don't meet and both retire healthy, well, then we get to argue about it for years!

Also, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think the BC races are a vote in HOY honors, not the be all and end all.  It is, after all, Horse of the YEAR, and should be based on a body of work, not just one day.  But we can argue about that, too!   ;-)

An article  last night claims that Del Mar is altering their track maintenance because the hard surface is causing horses to have sore feet and other unspecified injuries.  If Jess Jackson doesn't want to run his horse on an untried surface who can blame him.  Synthetic tracks have a lot of potential but they are not all equal and seem to have problems from time to time.  I agree with those who say that Dutrow is the trash talker and Curlin has nothing to prove.  The Big Brown camp needs to put their money where their mouth is.

I find myself missing the pre-BC Days of autumn CAMPAIGNS; the last was 1983-one year before the Breeders' Cup-when 3 year old Slew O' Gold met older Bates Motel at Belmont; SOG took the Woodward, JCGC and 3 year old championship.  He and older champ Bates were upset by Highland Blade in the Marlboro.  Now, coming down to one race, I can understand why Jackson will not race his champion on a mystery surface.  And, let's be honest, the Belmont Stakes disaster is the true reason BB's connection won't go the the JCGold Cup; they don't-maybe understandably-want him on the Belmont suface again.  I'll be really surprised to see either BB or Curlin at Santa Anita.    

I must add that when horse ran an autumn campaign racing was covered more, carried on a major network, and the grandstands and clubhouses did not resemble no man's land.  The growing tendancy toward a race here, wait six weeks, a race there, and then the BC, is killing interest in the sport.  When the Breeders' Cup originated it was as a crowning accomplishment, not THE accomplishment.

Nelly May, The DM surface shows why synthetics at tracks right on the ocean are too difficult to manage.

Joe, Iavarone actually said he didn't want to go to Belmont.

Dutrow isn't talking after restarting the issue with the throwdown, Iavarone said he didn't put the muzzle on him. Jackson wishes BB the best, maybe a future meeting (right BB is done after the BC if not before). The guy in a Saratoga paper has it right. Owners in a back alley fight, Trainers in a steel-cage match and the jocks arm wrestling. Sounds about right for the whole group. Then Rick retires and becomes a boxing promoter and is encouraged to do his verbal throwdowns. In the meantime the two horses and the fans are the losers, but mostly the fans since the two colts retire to stud duty a dream gig.

 So many opinions, it's amazing what the mention of these two horses inspires!  Some people seem to be blaming Jackson for trying to "intimidate" the BB connections into facing Curlin, but in my eyes he is perfectly justified.  He's had to put up with all the garbage spewing from Dutrow's mouth since the Triple Crown began and understandably must be sick of hearing it.  He and Asmussen have been very honest and sincere going through Curlin't races, never hurling  deragatory comments at the opposition.  

 On the other hand, I think it would be in the very best interest of racing for Mr. Jackson to run Curlin in the Breeders Cup Classic.  Facing Big Brown in the Classic would put to rest all doubts, and answer the question everyone wants answered: who is the best?  Seeing Big Browns Haskell, it seems doubtfull he will be able to mount any serious threat against Curlin's 2nd Horse Of The Year title.  Zenyatta seems to be the biggest threat as of now.  To bad her connections aren't considering a run against the boys in the Classic.

 With Curlin returning to the dirt, it's kind of hard to envision anything other than total domination on his part.  He's been unstoppable since last fall on the dirt, and if he wins the remainder of his dirt starts this year, he deservedly should recieve Horse Of The Year.

I agree with the original statements 100%. Very well stated

I am a fan of Curlin and I think synthetic tracks are stupid, and not because I think he would lose on it. Horses have been running on dirt for ever. So now all of a sudden, everyone is blaming horses breaking down on the dirt tracks?.  Breakdowns are caused from something we haven't figured out, or might never figure out. I think its ridiculous to blame dirty tracks on breakdowns. I say ban all synthetics, but that obviously won't happen.

I have to get this off my chest regarding the Haskell...

Since when is a 108 Beyer and a nearly 2 length win over lone speed that posted a 104 Beyer anything but a brilliant performance?  And remember it was his first race back...if I remember correctly Curlin came in a distant 3rd his first race back in the Haskell.  Also, please quit making excuses for Curlin... champions show up on championship day. Poly Pro or whatever I can promise you this the best horses from around the world are coming to take on Big Brown and the only one crying the blues is Mr. Jackson because its not on dirt.  Mr. Jackson let me tell you and everyone else the truth... no matter who shows up none of you have a chance against Big Brown... the only way to beat him is to knock his shoe half off.

Big Brown wins the Cup by 5 !!!

Remember where you heard it.

Draynay...really, now a one trick dirt pony? He's a 9 1/2 million $$ one trick pony...

Must I rehearse what this horse has accomplished?

Has never been off the board...13: 9-2-2; 1,2 or 3rd for the 3 year-old TC series, ties the record for the Preakness in only his 5th start, gives us one of the most wonderful stretch runs in Belmont history,still getting around a 105 or 106 Beyer, someone will correct me...losing by a head..beat Lawyer Ron (who had just set a track record)with a Beyer of 114, and got a Beyer of 119 in the BC on a muddy, drowned, sloppy track...then went across the world, won the World Cup winning by 7 3⁄4 lengths, "the largest margin in World Cup history", in 2:00.60 under a hand ride. He also became the only horse in Dubai World Cup history to win from the 12th post position."

He then became the first horse ever to survive the "Dubai bounce" and won his next start, the Stephen Foster, with 10 lbs more than the next weight...128 lbs and a 110 Beyer.

His first try on grass was a close second in a grade 1...

BB's best beyer is 109...he earned a 100 in his Preakness..he's come nowhere near any track records..he'll never go to Dubai.

We have received the message loud and clear Draynay. You don't have to keep saying the same things over and over. We get it, we got it, it's etched into our minds forever. ENOUGH ALREADY! PLEASE!

You remind me of a guy on a basketball board we're on. Biggest Fan you ever saw, every recruit every player past present and 30 years into the future are his BB when they show the least bit of interest in the school. Everyone applauds his loyalty but cringe when they read his posts. Fortunately they have and ignore poster option, unfortunately we don't.

According to the Daily Racing Form, Big Brown ran a 107-106 in the Haskell and Coal Man a 102.  Last year Any Given Saturday ran a 112 in the Haskell.  For comparison, Red Rocks ran 108 in the Man O'War to Curlin's 104.

Early in the year, Big Brown's campaign after the TC races was said to be the Haskell, Jockey Gold Cup, and the BC.  It's changed.  Ivaronne says BB is not going to Belmont specifically due to the shed issue (gotta wonder about the feet/soundness issue, though).  It's their choice, just like it's Jackson's choice not to take Curlin to Santa Anita.  The track at Santa Anita will be Pro-Ride.  It's my understanding that the only other tracks that have it in now are in Australia.  Is this true?

I wonder how Secretariat, Slew, Ruffian and all the greats would have run on synthetic? I agree with Nick Zito when he  said that God created dirt and its natural, thats what horses are meant to run on not a fake surface. I dont think the Breeders Cup is the perfect race for the Curlin BB match up. It needs to be run on dirt.

AWESOME COMMENTS. MOTO, I AGREE WITH THAT RACE AT MARYLAND. THEY BOTH DID WELL AT THAT RACETRACK BUT I DONT THINK IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. I TOO ALWAYS THINK ONE RACE SHOULD NOT BE A DECIDING FACTOR AND IN A WAY RESPECT CURLINS CONNECTIONS FOR RACING CURLIN IN THE WOODWARD AND THE GOLD CUP WHICH WERE THE MARKEE EVENTS PRIOR TO THE CLASSIC, BUT I ALSO COMPREHEND BROWN'S CONNECTION FOR GOING TO THE CLASSIC,BUT NOT FOR DODGING CURLIN IN THE NEW YORK RACES. I KNOW THEY HAVE THE BEST INTEREST FOR THEIR HORSES AND THAT HAS TO BE RESPECTED. I THINK BOTH SHOULD CONTINUE WITH THEIR PARTICULAR PLANS AND IF BOTH WIN OUT.....LETS TAKE THIS TRASH TALKING ABROAD....LIKE THE "THRILLA IN MANILA" OF ALI AND FRAZIER. LETS TAKE IT TO THE CURRENT MECCA OF MODERN HORSE RACING....JAPAN..THATS RIGHT...THE JAPAN CUP DIRT, AND FOR ALL OF THOSE WHO SAY PROVE THIS AND NOTHING TO PROVE,THIS RACE WOULD PROVE THINGS FOR BOTH; FIRST THE WINNER WOULD BE THE FIRST REAL AMERICAN CHAMPION TO WIN ABROAD IN A FEW DECADES,SECOND THE RACE IS ON DIRT, AND FINALLY THE WINNER WOULD BE REALLY WORLD CHAMPION FOR ALL TO ENJOY..."THE GREAT TERMINATION IN TOKYO"....IMAGINE THE WORLD PRESS FOR THAT RACE...AND THE MEDIA COVERAGE..LETS START THE HYPE AND SPREAD IT....THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING FOR THE AGESSSS....

first who was the mastermind that agreed to do two breeders cup at santa anita? second big brown is on the way down you just could see it after the haskell race, that was the worse of his performances, he got lucky the other horse have never run that far. i do agree that he got three yrs old championship lock, but hoy give me a break, who has he beat, lets be realistic no true competition, compare to last year, plus if curlin goes to the classic and lose because he didn't like the surface he will not get a rematch knowing how bb conections are. you wouldn't like that if you were curlins owner either. remember pyro before the blue grass how they say he was doing great job training, and all of the sudden in the race he didn't like it, by the way at the beggining of the year pyro was going to end his career int the classic anybody knows if he still running in the classic. anyways student council is winning the classic, so why even bother sending big brown to race there.

I think it will be a real shame if Curlin and Big Brown do not get the chance to meet. Having great horses racing against each other is great for the fans, the sport, and the breed. I think it is important for a horse to prove not only it's talent but it's physical strength and durability, so that we can truly know that we are breeding to horses that can improve the breed, not weaken it. I also think that the owners of Curlin are missing an opportunity to showcase their horse on a synthetic surface. Since synthetics are the way of the future, then it would make sense to run a horse you plan to stand at stud, on a surface his progeny will probably have to run on.

HEY WHATEVER:

IF YOU DON'T THINK BB'S LATEST RACE WASN'T TAXING,THEN YOU KNOW LITTLE OR NOTHING ABOUT RACING.  LAST TIME I CHECKED HE WAS INVOLVED IN A TRIPLE CROWN CAMPAIGN! PEOPLE LIKE YOU & OTHERS' ACT AS IF HE LOST THE HASKELL. SO WHAT IF HE DIDN'T WIN BY 20. HE RAN A 108 BEYER AND ILLUSTRATED GREAT HEART. GIVE THE HORSE A BREAK! HE'S NOT A MACHINE!

I think that Mr. Jackson & Asmussen already have an idea of how Curlin would run at Santa Anita.  Upon coming back from Dubai Curlin spent time at Keenland and their polytrack surface.  I think they both know quite well how Curlin might or might not have moved over the surface.  Undoubtly that time spent at Keenland has weighed in on the choice of wether or not to run at Santa Anita.  I believe that decision was made this spring... Each trainer/owner is going to do what is best for their horse.  None the less are both likely off to stud at the end of the year.  All I can say is that they both have alot to prove.  They've both had good years.  However, it's quite sad to say neither will have good careers. They will both be rushed off to stud instead of racing.  Racing by the way is what they were bred to do.  Winning the Breeders Cup Classic is great.......... but, can you do it again & again.  Horses like John Henry & The Tin Man have achieved immortality in my eyes.  To run at the highest level well beyond their 3 & 4 year old years and triumph in Grade 1 races at 8 & 9 years of age, that's whats racing is about.  

Donna, gotta love ole Nick first the advice to Rick on the Soprano psycohologist now this. I think he's right if not then maybe they should go ahead and allow the synthetic enhancement of the horses.Synthetic horses running on synthetic tracks whether the track is impossible or not.

Didn't Curlin work on the synthetic track at keenland,  when he returned from Dubai?  He and Pyro were work buddies and still are.  I was fortunate enough to be w. Curlin in Dubai, won't say what part I had in it, but I am positive Curlin has trained some on a synthetic.

Although I have personal admiration for Curlin, I've always wondered if the BC Classic of 2007 was a true gauge of Horse Of The Year.  I know Curlin was assigned big numbers for that race, so he obviously revelled in the sloppy course, but the slop took alot of horses out of the competition:  Lawyer Ron and Any Given Saturday did nothing, Street Sense was left spinning his wheels in the bog on the rail, and OMG, poor Gorgeous George (I for one haven't forgotten that proud horse refusing to go down, and it still hurts to this day).  You make some great points Jason, I agree with you whole heartedly.  I only hope that Big Brown is at his best (95-100%) if he should meet up with Curlin and Henrythenavigator.  Otherwise what would be the point?

I agree with you Donna, dirt is the

natural surface as well as turf. Running on man made stuff just doesn't seem right to me. No doubt that they will come up with some other surface in the future for horses to run on when they say that now the current surface is too harmful. Synthetics are here to stay but will constantly be changed when a new surface indicates even less break downs.

I also believe that HOTY honors will not be decided in the BC unless that horse has shown he or she has won a GR1 on dirt. Big Brown may have a shot at that if he wins it, but if Curlin wins out, even without the BC, he will still get it only because he is the most popular and loved horse in America.

Donna - not to mix it up with you and Zito - but God never gave us wings to fly, medicine to cure incurable diseases or gills to breath under water, but here in the ever developing modern world we fly, are free of diseases that once killed and scuba dive with ease for hours under water - so you'll understand if I say that reasoning is a tad provincial.  

If synthetics prove to be a safer way to run horses without causing life ending breakdowns - where do you really see the problem?  It's like evolution - as changes occur you adapt or get winnowed out of the process.  That's been the major problem with the racing industry, actually - it's lack of adaptability in the face of change in the last 50 years is well documented and has now made us - the industry and fans - be the ones who are getting winnowed out.  

I think I'm putting Jason's quote on a tee-shirt:  "Deal With It."

No - it's not been a perfect process - but all any of the posters against synthetics have said in this blog is that it's an untried, untested or unwelcome surface.  Well, friends - unless we run horses for several years on ProRide, Cushion and any of the other brands - we'll never have enough data to make an ultimate determination.  

This isn't something you can vet in a test tube or in a lab.  You have to gather data by running horses - ALL types and quality of horses on it!  Any trainer that is hesitant to run on it is just unhappy because they either don't have the type of stock or training style to excel on it or don't want to take the loss of revenue while they work to adapt - or a combo of the two.  

Hey, Baffert has been and continues to be a pretty vocal opponent of the synthetics - but guess what?  He's recognized that the surface is the reality of living and training in CA - so he is buying more horses with an affinity for it and learning to train to match the surface.  

Forward movement and adaptation to new technology - what a novel concept!

Here's the funniest thing - I'm a Curlin fan and never was on the Big Brown Bandwagon.  Yet I can't help but see Curlin's connection's actions that they just want to run where they know the horse will run great and be practically guaranteed a win.  

Short fields and less talented horses await Curlin in the Woodward and the Gold Cup - so can someone show me where they are any different than Big Brown's connections?  

Both are looking for the easiest spots to guarantee a win for their horse.  That might be sensible ownership - but it's not very sporting.

And, for those who wondered how Secretariat, Ruffian, et al would have fared when faced by synthetics - I can only say that Mrs. Chenery ran Secretariat in the Woodward even though he had not been training at all for that race - he'd been prepping for turf and the Man O War - but Riva Ridge couldn't run on the slop and Big Red could - so she put him in as a sporting gesture and because she thought he might pull it off.  He lost - but she took the shot - a sporting chance.

And I don't think the loss dimmed Secretariat's popularity or his legend.

Nor would it diminish Curlin - if he lost - they could always blame the track.  But if he won - WOW!

Bradgm:  exellent points all around on the marketing - I was thinking the concept of  the "showdown" but you are so correct - neither horse has the blessing of wonderful, warm, embracable connections. Would that Big Brown had been owned by Sackatoga Stables and trained by Tagg!  :)

Before Brown ever won the Derby it was known that Curlin would not run in the Breeders Cup. So what's all the hype about? Brown is the challanger, Curlin is the champ. Curlin doesn't have to meet Brown on Iavarone's terms. I like Brown but, it seems he is not just ducking Curlin but older horses in general. If he runs on turf it will be against weak field. Iavarone doesn't want to risk  another possible loss before the Breeders Cup due to Brown's stud contract. Brown has never ran a Street Sense or Hard Spun. I don't feel his win in the Haskill was impressive at all. He was wipped to beat an allowance horse (hats off to Coal Play, his trainer had him in great form for the race). The only reason Brown won the Haskill was due to Kent (who everyone knocks for pulling Brown up in the Belmont, I feel he did the right thing). I would rather see Curlin run in the Japan Dirt Cup, if he should win that race (he would be a winner in 3 different countries) it would be much more impressive then seeing him run in the BC Classic. Jackson is a better sportsmen. Curlin is older, faster & stronger than Brown, that's why they want to meet him on a synthetic surface rather then a dirt surface ( to try to level off the playing field). As for Synthetic surfaces, it has not yet been proven that they are safer then dirt. From what I have read, Europe installed them because the climate in the winter was colder in Europe then in the U.S. and Europe could not race all year round on dirt or turf. Designing a synthetic track would allow for racing all year round. Europe noticed that the synthetic surface was was safer but they don't state if it was safer year round or just in the winter months as opposed to dirt. I am not a synthetic track fan. I would wager to say that if you got rid of all racing meds on a dirt tracks & allowed all the meds allowed on a synthetic track that the dirt would be the safer place for a horse to run. I don't beleive man can make a better racing surface then nature. For real proof on what surface is better, all meds on both surfaces need to be banned & then a proper study should be taken. There is one more thing I would like pro synthetic track lovers to also consider,  If I was a jockey & for the sake of the horse as well, I would much rather inhale a lung full of dirt rather then a lung full of silicon. WHO knows if inhaling silicon will give you cancer 20 yrs down the road (long after a jockey has retired). Granted the fans would like to see a race between the two on any surface. I think the article caters to "what is best for Big Brown". You don't need a race between the two to tell who is the better horse, Curlin it's that simple.

Ok, this maybe just my opinion but why do people think the Classic field will have so many more horses than any other race that Curlin shows up in, let alone a race that both BB and Curlin are going to be in? The notion that the BC field is going to be so much bigger than all the rest. If horsemen don't want to run against one overwhelming champion why in the world would they change their minds if you put two in the same race?!

Also i do wish that now Curlin's connections would go after BB and prove them wrong and just plain scared. I'm getting quite tired of all this back and forth. Even though i say that now, i wish Curlin's connections would chase BB it is not because i believe BB is better. Curlin, last year ducked NOBODY! He danced all the dances and showed up in each one, winning most of the time. BB has much more to prove, and won't do it. In my mind a champ 3yr old should chase the champ 4yr old. So now it's up to Curlin's connections to go after BB.

Cgriff,

While Barclay is a wonderful trainer he's not exactly warm and fuzzy. The Sackatoga crew, well they're the typical home boys, cool guys.

As far as Baffert, he's sending a number of horses East, way down in the standings, for him. Maybe others of his renown are too, but they're a lot older. Well maybe the Legends deal helps all 3 of the TC trio, you could always count on something from them and even though there were a few jabs, nothing like now.

As far as the synthetics, yes I've agreed they're untested and that's fine. But, I don't think you run the biggest two days of racing on a track that isn't even installed yet and will only be in MAYBE 2 months prior. Especially when said track had a debacle matched in Cal by Del Mar. The enforced rule that all Cal tracks HAD to install the synthetics (with a few exceptions)

caused them to perhaps act hastily now having to repair the issues. IMHO:)

I have said and others have said this reminds us of astro turf, even experts have said there are a different set of injuries so who knows.

VP, also who knows how the fibers will affect the horse, his breathing and lung capacity. Remember Dr. Arthur said Cal had more Clenbuterol positives than anything else, maybe these horses can't breathe with the smog, pollution and now the synthetic dust.

VP, i agree with you. the challenger should meet on the champ's terms....EXAMPLE: Seabiscuit and War Admiral. only vice versal in this case. Curlin(seabiscuit) is chasing BB(War ADmiral. but BB's connections are refusing to meet, because they think their horse can beat Curlin. either that or ivarone's to arrogant to recognize a monster, lol. i think he's a bit of both, for he pretty much slapped Jackson in the face by saying, "we're racing a horse in the gold cup which Curlin can race, frost giant (somthing like that. it was one of the headlines today)"

i don't think it's stupid for Jackson not wanting to race Curlin on the surface. it IS unproven, and shows a great difference in racing. what i mean is, some horses that blow others out of the ball park on dirt, can't get good footing, and look like they are going backward! our breeding would have to change (it does need to anyway) but what i'm looking at, is horseracing is the sport of kings. they created it, and it is our job to preserve it the way made they created it. their rules (no drugs), their ways (natural surfaces). they didn't waste breedings, maybe 30 mares a year, if he's lucky.

The breeders cup are the races that test champions, to find THE best of the best. that means different catagories, dirt, milers, sprinters, mares, fillies etc. it seems unfair to test the Dirt Milers on synthetic, which is a kind of turf. turf runners can run on synthetic, most not on dirt. anyone agree on that subject?

Bottom line---It is the folks who have supported the "fake surfaces," who have robbed racing of a chance to see a nice classic match up.

Curlins camp said long ago the were hesitate to run on an artificial surface.If the two horse were to race, it needs to be on a dirt track. That way know one can say their horse didnt like the surface.

Also---Big Brown may have won the Derby against a weak field, and the preakness. But at least Curlin was able to finish the Belmont, and went on to win the world cup and classic.

I completely agree with TIZNOWBABY.  The Breeders' Cup should not decide the horse of the year - unless that horse has already shown himself (or herself) to be deserving and that final win is the icing on the cake (Curlin was a good example). Horse of the YEAR is supposed to be just that - the horse that overall performed the best ALL year!  I have seen some horses win a year end championship off a breeders cup race when it certainly appeared there were others more deserving who just didn't happen to win that day.  The voting needs to return to looking at the whole picture and not just one race.  And I agree that since Dutrow was doing the trash talking he should be willing to step up and meet the challenge put forth by Mr Jackson.  Four weeks then eight weeks between those races is more than enough.  Great horses in the past sometimes ran more than once in the same WEEK and often more than once in the SAME month! (Not a good idea in my opinion but a fact nonetheless)

OR

Curlin's connections just put these race possibilities out there to call the bluff of Big Browns connections.  NOW they do look like they are ducking Curlin.  And that makes Dutrow's statements seem pathetic.  

AND with all of that said I would bet that Curlin does meet Big Brown in Cali for Horse of the Year.  Oh the drama!

WOW yes I do agree with Jason that the classic this year would be an equal testing ground for both Brown and Curlin and both would be in the same boat as far as the synthetic surface is concerned but lets remember who is to say that either of them would win the Classic,lets remember such horses as Go Between,Awesome Gem,Colonel John(already proven on the surface)El Gato Malo,and lets say Well Armed and Commentator both go to the Classic,those two could run Brown into the ground and if Henrythenavigator does show up well maybe just maybe could be better than them all.....just a thought people...but great comment Jason

I wonder if the track surface is a red herring, and Jess Jackson is avoiding the Breeders Cup/California because of the steroid ban. Steve Asmussen has never said, to my knowledge, if Curlin is or is not on steroids. After seeing how poorly Big Brown ran in the Belmont, one wonders how much missing his steroid shot figured into the poor performance. If Curlin is getting steroids, his connections might be wondering the same thing. It's just a thought. I agree with your point about the muddy surface last year. I can't imagine the Pro Ride being as bad as that.

I've also heard that a goal of theirs is for Curlin to beat Cigar and retire with the most winnings. Running in a $5 million race would achieve that goal quicker that running in smaller purse races.

As far as the short fields etc. for Curlin: where else would he run before the BC that the fields would be larger and "more contentious?" Am I missing some amazing stakes matchups before the BC? AND isn't it also possible that Curlin's presence in those races deters some competitors who are looking for an easier spot themselves. Really, that's a pretty circular argument. I agree owners and trainers try to choose the best spots for their horses and as much as it is frustrating to see, why not? - why run in a spot where you know you can't win? Stop trying to disparage Curlin because of it. He is the defending champ and has accomplished much more impressive feats than BB in the past two seasons.

Also, Curlin can't exactly chase BB for a challenge before the BC because it seems that Iavarone and crew are planning on keeping him against restricted 3-year-old fields as long as possible.

  This is obviously a polarizing situation, but I can't see how a horse who's had almost twice as many starts as the other and shown himself to be game and consistent in all of them (regardless of the company), comes out playing second fiddle to a 3-year-old champ who seems to be going the wrong way at the wrong time. I think Big Brown's connections are his own worst enemy - he may be a better horse than I think he is, but I'm giving him less shrift because his connections (primarily Dutrow) are making bombastic statements that just don't match up with what he has shown on the track so far against his competition. Really, all the talk comes to nothing if your horse can't perform.

I get really tired of all the "second coming" style hype that surrounds horses on the TC trail, particularly because, while impressive performances early in the year are awesome (I'd love to see a TC in my lifetime), we've seen time and again that some quality horses are just later bloomers (look at Tiznow). That's horse racing. And the BB camp would do well to remember that there may be a 3-year-old lurking who will rise to BB's level. The trend is that most 3-year-old stars are retired at the end of their 3-year-old season. Not to say there haven't been excellent horses in that category (look at Hard Spun, Street Sense, Barbaro (obviously retired due to injury), etc.). However, ideally I think horses that demonstrate precocity should race at least through their 4-year-old season to be able to demonstrate a wider spectrum of ability. As a racing fan (and I'm only 25), I get much more pleasure watching a Tiznow, Curlin, Lava Man, Came Home, Tin Man, Ginger Punch, With Anticipation, etc. (win or lose) than the meteoric rise and retirement of the hot 3-year-olds that come and go every year. (And yes, I realize that some of those alluded to or named above, such as Came Home, did retire after their 3-year-old year, but they at least tried older company before heading off to the breeding shed). Longevity is what draws and keeps fans engaged, and unfortunately the sport doesn't have enough of it.

First I should state that I not only have a beef with running at Santa Anita on an unproven surface, but I find it asinine to go back a second year in a row, especially with the lame duck excuse of SA being so close to a "media center" like LA. Belmont is suddenly not one with its proximity to New York? Please!This is just another sign of how political this business is and has become. As a Curlin fan from day 1(quite literally so, as I worked at Fares Farm in as temp sales prep help and spent a few days in one of the broodmare barns where I happened to meet a mare named Sheriff's Deputy and a tough little chestnut colt I instantly took a liking to) I find it hard to believe he likely won't go to the classic. I firmly believe that if you want your horse to be a horse of the ages as Mr. Jackson does for Curlin, it must be shown that he can run on all surfaces and against all comers, greatness overcomes any surface issue that may arise in my opinion, true greatness. That being said I believe Big Brown is really good, but not great, I think he could be, but we will never know. As far as Mr. Jackson goes, I have had personal experience with him, as after leaving Fares I was employed at Hill'n'Dale, where I groomed Saarland among several of the other stallions(RIP Vinnie). It was on two separate occasions that while grooming Saarland Mr. Jackson came up to the stall door and spoke with me at length, both conversations being in the area of about 15 or 20 minutes. To this day I am a fan of both Mr. Jackson and his horses, he is truly one of the most humble and down to earth men I have EVER met in this industry and we need more people like him in the worst way. We spoke about a need for change and a need for heroes(this was in 2005, some 2 years before Curlin would race). He asked me my opinions on different areas of the industry, both good and bad, and I truly believe he cared about what I had to say. So while I don't understand Curlin probably not going to the classic I know Mr. Jackson must have a good reason or a better place in his mind to take him and I wish him all the luck in the world in his endeavors.I also wouldn't be shocked to see him run Curlin at 5 either, the sport so desperately needs him now and Mr. Jackson is well aware of this I am sure. I love Steve Haskin's idea to have both Curlin and BB run in the Clark handicap at Churchill to decide the Championship(although truthfully I believe Curlin has a pretty good lock on HOY) but I doubt it will ever happen unfortunately.

For once I agree with you, Jason.  I just want to comment on Big Brown's next race being on turf.  It seems kind of logical to me that BB would need to win races on all kinds of surfaces in order to be thought of as great at the end of his racing career.  I realize his first win was on turf, but I'm not sure anyone would take that into consideration when voting for Horse of the Year.  So it seems a logical progression to me to win on dirt, then win on turf, then win against older horses on a synthetic surface.  I am one of Big Brown's most ardent admirers and I will be cheering him on and hoping he pulls it off!  That being said, I also love Curlin and were he to win the Breeder's Cup Classic a second time, I'd be just as happy.  What I really care about is having all the horses be safe.  And racing on a synthetic surface seems the best way we've got to make that happen.

Steroids are illegal in Dubai and Curlin has not been on them since (according to owner).  That would be since February 08.

Curlin and Rags to Riches ran the last quarter mile of the Belmont in 24.  They finished, indeed!  

Even if Curlin doesn't go to the BCC, I suspect BB will have his hands full.  I don't think it is a given that he will win by any means and then all this hubabaloo about Big Brown and Curlin may seem a little bit of wasted time. . .

This is now ridiculous.

Jess Jackson, the supposed great sportsman, is declining the opportunity to meet Big Brown in the designated championship race of the year - The Breeders Cup Classic. Not only is he declining the opportunity to run in the Breeders Cup he has decided to hand out challenges to Big Brown’s connections. Why not just run wherever Big Brown does? Turn up and face him. After all “the fans want it”, so you can give the fans the clash. But no Mr Jackson has the Japan Cup Dirt in mind for Curlin.

Japanese dirt isn’t quite the same as American dirt. Student Council, a horse who has won at the top level on Dirt and synthetic tracks and America, only finished 8th behind Vermillon, Japan’s best Dirt horse. Vermillon has had two tries at the Dubai World Cup, including this year, and has finished a total of 55 lengths behind the winner. The surface at Nad Al Sheba is based on the surface at Churchill Downs which shows it’s like an American Dirt surface. Vermillon clearly isn’t at his best on an American style dirt surface yet is on a Japanese style surface. What if the reverse of this happens with Curlin? Mr Jackson is going to look silly as there is as much chance of Curlin hating the Dirt in Japan as there is him hating a synthetic track.

The Japan Cup Dirt is such an interesting race that it’s been moved from the Saturday before the Japan Cup to the week after as well as being moved from Tokyo racecourse to Hanshin racecourse.

Some could argue that if Curlin becomes the first horse to win the Breeders Cup Classic, Dubai World Cup and the Japan Cup Dirt that he’s a great horse. I don’t think winning the Japan Cup Dirt would make Curlin a greater horse than if he beat Big Brown on a track which he might not be at his best on. The Japan Cup Dirt is a race that lacks international standing amongst the great races of the world anyway.

Jess Jackson made the effort to prove Curlin on Turf unsuccessfully but everybody admired him for taking on the challenge, so why not take on the challenge of Big Brown on a synthetic track. He can keep Curlin in training for next years Japan Cup Dirt if he really is desperate to win such a meaningless race like that.

It seems as if BB is ducking the top 3 year olds as well as Curlin.From the looks of his performance in that 2 other than at Monmouth, I can see why they wanted no part of the Travers.Talk about small fields what do you call that bunch he faced at Monmouth? Hey Iavarone, if you want HOY you need to meet BB in NY.

Declarations such as "synthetics are the way of the future" and "love them or hate them they aren't going away" are as premature as they are irresponsible. Though these bold predictions might prove to be true in the long run, we are still a long ways from truly understanding how much more safe, if in fact they are more safe, than a state-of-the-art traditional dirt surface with a refortified base layer. I read and hear these predictions often, and when I consider the total absence of any journalitic objectivity behind them, I'm left to conclude that they are made by someone with an agenda. And by the way, for the record, equine safety is, in reality, only a secondary reason for the proliferation of these surfaces. But that's another topic for another time.

I've tried to remain open to synthetics. Unlike many, I've tried to be Switzerland and not be in a rush to pick a camp. Personally, I don't mind having them around as the THIRD surface they are; for as a player, anything that confuses the aggregate wagering public suits my contrarian approach to playing just fine. But as a life-long fan and supporter of the game and a proud member of that market niche which has been providing CPR to a dying industry for the last few decades, and as someone who has attended the last 16 Breeders' Cups, I'm offended by the false suggestion that a championship for one of the THREE surfaces can be determined by an event conducted on another one of the THREE. One of the biggest myths in horse racing that all great performers are without a PREFERRED SURFACE. Though it's true that some have performed admirably on both turf and dirt, the fact remains the vast majority had a preference. Secretariat won on grass, but it's unlikely his connections would have ran him on the turf if the race was of such importance as to determine a horse of the year award or influence in any way his lasting legacy.

The reputations of both Curlin and Big Brown have been earned by their exploits on traditional dirt surfaces, and in races that should always be conducted on traditional dirt, always. Ergo, the most appropriate venue for any SERIES of showdowns between these two colts would be Belmont Park and Churchill Downs. As much as many of you self-congratulatory types in the pro-synthetic camp might not want to beleive it, the simple fact remains the next two years' Breeders' Cups will be counterfiet.

Big Brown Fans - Let it go. You have the best three year old of 2008 period. It however is amazing that IEAH and Dutrow continue the masquerade of wanting to meet Curlin "to settle Horse of the Year." Mr. Jackson made clear his intentions quite a while ago, live with it or show up and challenge him. Big Brown is a very nice horse that, with the exception of a mysterious Belmont performance, has been dominant against his three year old peers, which at this point have proven to be less than mediocre. Horse of the Year will and should be settled in New York in the Woodward and Gold Cup, two of the most prestigious races in America, by Curlins performance. Although several knowledgable people on this forum have pointed out that both races will draw a small field, they are right, however, each and every entrant will be far superior than the group Big Brown has faced. Curlin has unquestionably proven himself to be one of the finest horses in the world, against first class competition, over the past two years while Big Brown, to date, has proven only to be the best of group of under achievers.

The Breeder's Cup has become an highly overrated gauge for HOTY honors when, as several responders have pointed out, a horses body of work over the year should rightfully dictate that title.

Not to belittle Big Brown's accomplishments as he has won both the Derby and Preakness and deserves to be called a champion, but he has yet to set foot on a track against any quality competition. If he is to lay claim to Horse of the Year honors he must meet and beat the champion. Why would his connections want to dictate a meeting on a questionable surface, that would be foreign to both horses, since both have made their mark on dirt ? Obviously they would rather roll the dice and hope Big Brown will grab the surface better than Curlin and backdoor the honor. Is that the way all of us would like to see such a match up settled ?

Forget the overhyped Breeder's Cup Classic - put both horses on the surface where they have both excelled and wish them the best in their quest for Horse of the Year 2008.        

As Jerry Bailey stated last weekend, "BB and Curlin don't breath the same air".  His bet would be on Curlin by at least 3.  Some here are saying that if Curlin isn't in the Breeder's Cup and BB wins it then Curlin looses his crown?????  Please....  He won the HOTY amongst the best group of 3 yr. olds in decades!!!, no one can take that away from him.  He's won the right to take a different route without having to show up for every challenge thrown his way.  Curlin looses nothing by not facing BB, yet Jackson has given BB's connections every opportunity to face Curlin and they've turned it down.  Nothing lost for Curlin!  Instead of dieing to get a fan release from all the tension built up about a match race between these two, let's get on with racing and see if we can get Curlin to stay racing for another year. Just the fact that he's racing this year is a total gift to racing.  If we get him another year, racing as a whole has won.

I don't know what all the fuss is all about.  Here are the facts as I see them:

1.  Curlin will NOT run in the Classic.  Assmussen will have Student Council instead.

2.  Big Brown will NOT be in the top 3 finishers in the Classic.  He will not have faced the older generation by then.  He and his connections will have a wake-up call.

The Classic will be decided by Well Armed, Go Between, Student Council or some other high profile trainer's charge...

One of the most common excuses in dirt racing is "my horse didn't like the track."  On the turf, one hears a variation of the same theme from "too soft" through "too hard."

You can't please all the horses (and all the people) all the time...

An example of a built-in edge on any dirt or turf surface is the time-worn & true "horse for course" angle...

In short, there is always going to be horses who like one track or surface more than others...that's racing.  Plus, biases can change from day to day and even race to race...weather is always a factor.

The Pro-Ride surface will be no different...and unless Jackson already knows that Curlin spins his wheels on artificials - then to skip the BC because of surface does seem rather arbitrary...

By the same token...if they take Curlin to Japan, let's say, for the Dirt Cup...that doesn't look like a horse who's ducking anyone..that looks like a horse who will face significant hurdles in Japan, who already has a BC Classic under his belt & stands to try something different.

As to ducking Big Brown...that's nonsense.  Curlin is not ducking Big Brown. However, that's how some fans see it...the ones who root, root, root for Big Brown.

ASs a handicapper, I'd love to see them meet in the Classic...cause I might finally get a price that makes betting Curlin worth my while. :)

BB is taking the same route as Curlin in his 3 yo campaign. Admittedly it appears that their is a noticably weaker 3yo field than last year. But no one asked Curlin to go against older horses until the Classic as a 3yo, nor should they ask Big Brown. I love both these horses and would love to see a match up.  

My favorite last year was Curlin because everyone talked bad about him at the beginning because he had not raced as a two yr old and look what he did...after maturing a bit more and growing a bit more and getting stronger. My favorite this year is Big Brown for the same reasons. They are both great horses with good trainers.  Leave them alone and let them do what is best for the horse.  And how many times do I have to tell you?....It is not necessarly the surface, although I believe the natural surface of dirt is better, it is the bones...the horses' bones.  They have not developed enough at age two and three for all these strenuous and stressful works and races.  The undeveloped bones! Why can't we let them grow and mature at least one more year to cut down on all the injuries? Sure, these thoroughbreds look huge at two, but have their bones completely developed as have their enormous bodies.  Nope!  Now, go Curlin, do your thing! And go Big Brown, and do your thing!  Super, both of them!    

To my knowledge it was announced that Curlin used to get steroids but hasen't recieved any all year, meaning all races this year he has raced steroid free.

Why is it that Curlin can lose races and have connections who are in jail and still be loved and considered great, but Big Brown has to demolish all the competition in a race in order to have people say just a few nice things about him?  I don't get it.  How could he offend anyone or make them hate him.  He's a horse!Geez.

"Does the BC Classic determine the Horse of the Year or not?"

It shouldn't - no SINGLE race for 3 year olds and up, male or female, regardless of surface, should determine a YEAR's award.

Let's take a really extreme example - let's say you have a Triple Crown winner who also wins the Travers and/or the Jockey Gold Cup, then gets hurt and comes off the trail.  And let's say whoever wins the BC Classic, whether a long shot or a favorite, raced against the Triple Crown winner 3 times and lost every time they met.

Who would you vote for for horse of the year?  Myself, I'd go for the dominating record.

Let's take a less extreme example - let's say NEITHER Curlin NOR BB runs in the BC Classic, but they both win a G1 sometime this fall.  And let's say Student Council or Harlem Rocker wins the BC Classic.

Do you vote for BB, who won 2 legs of the TC?  For Student Council, who got better and better as the year went on?  Or for Curlin, winner against international competition on multiple tracks?  Or do you widen your view and say "you know, that pool of older female horses is one of the best in decades.........."

I like the debate about BIG BROWN. I think it's interesting and fun to see the passionate opinions about him. I try to always point out that I think BIG BROWN is a "very good horse." He is obviously the best of the 3 year old bunch this year. My favorite is COLONEL JOHN, but BIG BROWN beat him pretty handily in the Derby. And I was thrilled when DA' TARA won the Belmont Stakes.

However, BIG BROWN is the division leader, without a doubt, but he is definitely not "one of the greatest of all time." If every division leader were "one of the best of all time," then that label would really hold no meaning. BIG BROWN has won 4 stakes - FOUR - that's all. No track records have been set (not even close, actually). And he hasn't beaten any other "great" horses. So the label that some people are giving him ("one of the greateste of all time") is premature, if not ridiculous.

Well, let's take a look at last years Classic.  All year we had Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Rags to Riches (until she unfortunately left with an injury) Any Given Saturday, and Lawyer Ron.  The best we've seen in decades.  All year it was a breath taking contest between these horses and on any given day each of them was outrun by one or the another of this elite group.  We all wondered who was really going to show up at the Classic, because after a full season of such wonderful talent, some big venue had to be the deciding factor.  And it was.  And it was on good old tried and true historical dirt.  This year, it's totally different.  Our crop of 3 year olds this year haven't come close to matching last years contests in time or in singling out the best few contenders. In fact the older horses and the fillies are making the most impressive stand.  It seems like our 3 yr old colts have been playing musical chairs all season.  The Classic this year has every chance of being the same crap shoot that this whole season of racing has been... particularly with the untested synthetic surface factoring in. Given that alone, we'll always speculate whether the horse that wins this classic was really the best...for a myriad of reasons.  I'm not believing that this Classic is going to tell anyone who the best horse of 2008 is. This year they may have to look across a much broader forum of accomplishments to decide.

When more than one horse has a similar amount of wins at pretty equal levels - YES - the BREEDERS CUP DOES MAKE OR BREAK HOY!

No way would Curlin have won HOY without last year's Classic.  Street Sense would have been the HOY on the stength of the Derby/Travers duo.  In '99 - Charismatic won HOY without running in the Classic because Cat Thief hadn't won anything prior - unequal records - so the better record prevailed.  Tiznow won HOY with no classic to his credit because FuPeg couldn't live up to his hype beyond the Derby an finished up the track in the Classic.  But if he had won the Classic?  He'd have been HOY because he was the Derby champ.

So as anyone can see - it's very much a deal maker or breaker depending on the record coming in.  Curlin and Big Brown have wracked up pretty equal records statistically - so the Classic will be a big determiner between them if either would win (or lose) it.  

Not running in it at all?  Well, that takes all the control from Curlin and makes him wait and see what happens. Not a good approach with a healthy, on his game horse, IMHO.

IfCurlin does not run in the Classic, and Big Brown runs and wins - he will be HOY.  I hope Jackson recognizes that logic (and is willing to accept the consequences) - even if a lot of his fans don't want to acknowledge it.

Can we get the basic facts out on this surface issue? Yes, more studies needed on incidents of injury on artifical surfaces, but the initial results are clear and statistically significant-- fewer catastrophic breakdowns on the synthetics. However,it also appears we may be trading one set of problems for another, as we are seeing more soft tissue/tendon-related issues on the synthetics, particularly, it seems in the rear.

Yes, there are differences in dirt, turf and synthetics. Please also consider surfaces within each type are not uniform, either, varying from track to track, and even on the same track (rail bias, dirt becomes mud, turf gets hard, turf gets soft, etc, etc). Yes, some horses prefer one surface over the other. In the final analysis, however, horses run, period. That is what they do. Some do it better than others. Go figure.

As for synthetics, the best going in my book is the all-weather training surface invented by former trainer Michael Dickinson and installed at Fair Hill, MD back in the Fall of 2006, as I recall, and marketed as Tapeta. Both the turfers and the dirters take to the stuff. Wish the BC was being run on Dickinson's creation.

Cgriff,

I think you're right.  If Curlin doesn't show and BB wins he will be HOY.  And why not?

What does Curlin's connections being in jail have anything to do with the performance of the horse?

Same as BB's connections, his aen't exactly stellar but it hasn't tarnished his performances.

Jason,

I've seen a few years where the classic winner was not voted horse of the year.  It's not up to any of us anyway.  I think that if Curlin doesn't show at the Classic (I hope and pray he does) and Big Brown does and wins, then yes, BB desereves horse of the year unless Curlin wins his next 2 races and meets BB at Chruchill and beats him.  It really isn't up to any of us anyway but let's face it, if BB wins the classic why not horse of the year?  You have to throw the Belmont out then he would have only one loss for the year.

Troy,

Curlin beat older horses before the classic....the Jockey club Gold Cup.

With all due respect  Jason, "soup", and all its variations, has been tested for decades.  Some do well with it, others don't.  We know how it goes with "soup".  My point actually was that the Classic venue meant far more last year, even if people walked away with their own particular speculations about "if only".  Given the extraordinary class of the year, some venue had be used as a measuring stick, and the Classic was the obvious place. I just don't see that this year.  I'm not quite ready to "accept it" regarding the Pro Ride, given many trainers are not at all sold on it either.  Let's face it...it's controversial because it's not tested.  Perhaps the Breeders Cup next year will be regarded differently after Santa Anita gets a year to work out the kinks that the other synthetic tracks have had to go through.

My picks for this weekend are:

Sword Dancer- Champs Elysees will nose out Better Talk Now with Presious Passion in 3rd.

Longacres Mile- Tropic Storm will live up to his favoritism in this case with True Metropolitan in 2nd.

Big Brown wins the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Haskell, and the Breeders Cup Championship and you want to give HOY to another horse who didn't even bother to show up to defend the crown WHERE HE EARNED IT ?

The only way Curln is not HOY is if Big Brown shows up ALONG with ALL the other horses from around the WORLD and he beats them at the Breeder's Cup.  If Curlin wants to take that chance ... so be it but you do not earn the honor by winning a few stakes races against 4 horses.

Hopefully Tropic Storm lives up to his name as we are having record heat (in the mid 90s) in the Seattle area today.

FOR LYLA AND MG, AND THIS IS COMING FROM A FAN OF CURLIN(WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE BEST HORSE IN THE LAST 30 YEARS)BIG BROWNS TIMES ARE SIMILAR TO CURLINS. AND TIMES ARE WHAT MATTER. I HATE TO SEE PEOPLE COMPARING COMPETITION. EXAMPLE, EASY GOER RAN AGAINST ALLOWANCE HORSES IN THE GOTHAM AND BROKE THE STAKES RECORD, IS THAT EASY GOERS FAULT THAT ALLOWANCE HORSE SHOWED UP?SPECTACULAR BID'S WOODWARD BY HIMSELF(NO OTHER HORSES IN THE RACE) WAS EXTREMELY FAST, WAS IT HIS FAULT NO ONE SHOWED UP? I CAN GO ON...MY POINT IS, I AM A CLOCK GUY;THE 40 YARD DASH IN FOOTBALL IS WORTH MILLIONS AND RARELY THOSE IT LIE, AND IN HORSE RACING, TIME DOESN'T LIE SPECIALLY IN A RACE. TO CONCLUDE.. BIG BROWN'S TIMES IF YOU WACTH THE RACES(MOST ON YOUTUBE) ARE IMPRESSIVE VISUALLY..(THE FLORIDA DERBY WAS 1:10 FOR SIX FURLONGS IN HAND) AND HIS QUATER MILE TIMES ARE ALL GREAT. I AM NOT SAYING BIG BROWN IS BETTER THAN CURLIN OR THAT CURLIN IS BETTER THAN BIG BROWN, I JUST THINK THAT ACCORDING TO THE STOP WATCH, THESE ARE TWO REMARKABLE HORSES AND SOMETHING TELL ME WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT THEM FOR MANY YEARS...

Many a horse has worked "lights out" in the morning and never won a race.The clock can not measure class. Curlin and Big Brown are both very talented but Big Browns performance in the Belmont gives the edge to Curlin in the class department.

Danylson, Never mind. I couldn't respond about the Curlin/BB best horse deal with a straight face, so I won't.

All of these IF'S I keeep hearing from the commenters on here, well IF I win the lottery I'm going to buy the next super horse.

Jason,

IF Big Brown loses THEN WHO gets HOY?

Lyla,

Great post about Curlin's loss to Rags.  Yes, Curlin lost to a "girl" but what do you expect from a man who calls women "Broads"?  Yes, he said that in one of his TC interviews.  Jap Horse, Godzilla isn't dead.  The guy should have his mouth welded shut.

I would have no problem with BB winning HOY if he wins the classic but so many people are talking about it as if it's a "forgone conclusion".  They don't know if he will even like the surface.  We will all see.

Jason,

I am so sorry!  I forgot that you have a vote.  The rest of us don't though.

Now although I agree with JordanA, I'm sick of people saying if, but what if Curlin and Big Brown retire tomorrow and a horse like G1 winner Frost Giant takes the Classic. Who would win the HOY?

I'm not really sure how the determination is made.Do you guys who vote have like a specific set of criteria you're required to follow? Do you have a list to choose from etc. I'm not really sure I've ever seen it explained. If BB loses is the assertion that the Breeders Cup determines the HOY invalid? What if D'Tara or Commentator come in and wins the Classic?

Also is Curlin's victory in Dubai taken into consideration or is it only North American races? Does any of this play into it, I'm curious about how it works.

Really. Your vote would go to BB. Four G1's against who? I could probably win a gold medal if I ran the 100meters against 5 year olds (speaking of which, didn't ESPN do a bumper that essentially broke down the Preakness or Belmont with one of their commentators (standing in for BB) in just that scenario?). The Derby was impressive, but again, the field was not stellar.  I just don't see how that compares to any of the other handicap/international competition (including but not limited to Curlin) - international travel and victory/consistency against proven competition. Maybe if some of the other 3-year-olds come into their own and start winning consistently, that will bolster BB.

I'm not saying Curlin has to be HOY, but if they both retired tomorrow (meaning no win for BB in the BC) BB has a lot more of a leap to the head of the HOY field. 3-year-old of the year fine, I agree whole-heartedly, but jumping him ahead of the older horses running this year seems like more of the willingness to crown whatever precocious colt performs well for a few races. Again, the Classic should be part of the whole picture for the year.

Also, for the person who alluded to the connections  wanting to have BB be a winner on all three surfaces (dirt, turf, and synthetic), that's admirable and I'm sure it'd boost his stud value, but it's not guaranteed to improve his standing unless he does so against quality fields.  Lava Man was the first to win G1's on all three surfaces, and (much as I loved seeing him run and was a huge fan) I still couldn't make the argument that he legitimately deserved HOY because he couldn't perform outside of CA and wasn't always facing great fields. Consistency and the caliber of the competition ultimately make or break a horse's quality.

Certainly a HOY argument can be made for BB.However, the first time things did not set up for him he failed miserably and please no more shoe excuses.He also barely ran down a very tired allowance horse in the Haskell.If you dont think he was all out to win than I guess you didn't read Iavarones claim that BB was knocked out aftr the race.

I just stated this opinion on Steve's blog but I am really wondering about BB's feet. KD was bashed for holding BB back at the beginning of the Haskell but I think it was done intentionally to lessen the stress on his feet, quick starts require a lot of pounding on the feet and he worked out on grass for the  Haskell, less stress on the feet.  The excuse about the Woodward and the JCGC is not a good one.  I don't think they are so much afraid of Curlin as they are concerned about his feet.  They want a grass race then the classic?  I think they are hoping that the SA surface is kind to his feet.  I really think the foot problems are more than anyone knows.  He may not make it to the classic.  Just my opinion, not saying I'm right it's just what I think considering everything.

Okay, Jason, what if Curlin wins both the Woodward and the JCGC?

Two wins in Dubai, one being the DWC, 4 grade one wins and a second in a grade one grass race, I am putting the DWC as a grade 1, how could it be otherwise?

Jason,

Thanks again for a great blog.

Jason,

Your comments:  "Funny how many of you Curlin fans are so quick to say that the Horse of the Year honors shouldn't be settled at the Breeders' Cup. Yet, you are very quick to point out that Curlin is the reigning Horse of the Year and has nothing to prove. Quick question: If Curlin hadn't won the BC Classic last year, do you think he would have been Horse of the Year? No chance. You can't have it both ways. Does the BC Classic determine the Horse of the Year or not??"

Two Points:

One: Yes - I do believe that Curlin would have been voted HOY without the BC Classic based upon his entire campaign. Street Sense, who along with Lawyer Ron would have been his primary contenders. Although you seem to place more credence on the Derby than it deserves in selecting horse of the year, Curlin came back to beat Street Sense in the Preakness, then ran second by a nose to one of the best fillies of alltime in the Belmont, which Street sense decided to skip after being knocked out of the triple crown chase, and if I'm not mistaken,he then beat, head to head older horses and his other main competition in the JCGC. Who would you have cast your ballot for ? And no, the BC Classic should not determine that title. A horses body of work over the entire year is the standard - the BC Classic may put an exclamation point on their accomplishments but is not, nor should it be, the criteria for that honor.

Two:

No - Curlin has nothing to prove is exactly correct, his three year old campaign and subsequent four year old season leaves little to question at this stage. He has proven to be among the best horses in the world by competing against and beating the worlds best in Dubai then returning and winning the Foster while giving away substantial weight allowance. He has clearly mapped out his final plans in two of Americas most prsteigious races for all that wish to challange.

He is in fact a true and desereved Horse of the Year.

Far be it from me to begrudge Street Sense his 2007 HOY status if Curlin had not won the BC Classic. Street Sense's wins in the TB Derby, KY Derby, Jim Dandy and Travers deserve to be recognized, not to mention his accomplishment of having thrown the lid down once and for all on the so-called "BC Juvenile Jinx".  I give cudos to SS for his valiant effort in the Blue Grass which was conducted on the third surface. There is no disgrace in finishing second to the then third surface specialist Dominican. In fact it's rather similar to Curlin's brave second to past BC Turf winner Red Rocks on a surface that is not his preferred. However, having just given due recognition to Street Sense's very good 2007 season, I do have to say that it's my hope that those with a vote to cast would have taken into consideration the following: A) Curlin's accomplishments within a short time. His troubled third in the KY Derby was, in some respects, more impressive than Street Sense's win, especially given his relative lack of experience and the latter enjoying a perfect set-up and trip along the rail. B)Once toughened to a rougher brand of racing, Curlin's gutty win in the Preakness was more impressive than any of Street Sense's given the fact he had been passed by Street Sense on the inside and displayed uncommon class in getting up on Steet Sense. Within the undiluted stage of a less crowded field, when SS and C had the opportunity to get eyeball to eyeball the better did in fact win.C) There is absolutely no shame in losing  a grueling stretch battle to the class filly Rags to Riches, especially considering that Rags was more fresh and in the minds of some, better bred for 12 panels. D)Unlike Street Sense, Curlin defeated his elders when he got up on Lawyer Ron. Lawyer Ron was somewhat underrated. It's too bad because he really was one of the better performers in the handicap ranks we'vre seen in recent years. With Lawyer Ron never really receiving his just due, Curlin's remarkable JCGC victory was completely devalued.

If both SS and Curlin had lost the BC Classic, I would hope that enough of the voters would have taken into consideration what Curlin had accomplished as a three year old. It truly is remarkable, and I'm not one who is quick to offer accolades. Street Sense's victories were admirable, but the reality remains, and despite the G1 and G2 status assigned to the weak races he won at the Spa against lesser competition, that Curlin overcame much more than SS ever did throughout the season. I would have voted for Curlin but would not have had a problem with SS winning as long as the vote tally was not as much of a landslide the moderator would like to suggest.  

Jason: I think the key phrase in my sentence was "in some respects". I was in no way suggesting that Street Sense wasn't the best horse on that day. I would have expected SS to be the better horse that day, as he was well entrenched into his second form cycle and with the benefit of a solid first form cycle foundation to support his further development as a three year old. Curlin's Derby was actually the race he needed, one with serious pace and against better company, to advance him further in his first form cycle. It's within that context I believe Curlin's race was, "in some respects", more impressive than SS's win. And that's not to take anything away from SS, I would have expected him to be the better performer on that day given his relative experience edge. That there was only 8 lengths between the two is in my mind, further testament to Curlin's raw athletic talent, especially given Street Sense's ground-saving parting-of-the Red-Sea trip as opposed to Curlin's jouney that afternoon. Having said that, I never believed or meant to suggest Curlin was ever going to defeat either SS or Hard Spun on that day.

But armed with that experience, Curlin took his game to the next level. There is much subjectivity when analyzing form cycles and because of this many of us within the player ranks have differing views, but to my way of thinking, given that Curlin was on equal footing with SS and HS after the Derby is a strong indication of his true innate athletic abilities, both in terms of speed and class.

I beleive it's folly to attemt to gauge a horse's merit by quickly checking the graded stakes status of the races in the horse's pps. Seems like a short cut. I've seen many G1s that were composed of  nothing more than allowance caliber performers, and likewise, I've seen some G3 races that had what I would consider to be G1 talent competing in them. Through no fault of Street Sense's, he didn't defeat much last summer. Curlin, admittedly was as dull as dishwater upon his return in the Haskell, an indication to me he hadn't recovered from the rigors of his first form cycle efforts. But when called upon two months later to take on his elders, he responded in a big way. As Curlin began his second form cycle at that time, many of us hanicappers intuitively knew that Culin was probably in another league than either HS or SS. So again, in looking back at the two colts seasons in their totality, it's the opinion of many, myself included, that Curlin accomplished as much as Street Sense and deserved equal consideration for HOY.

You Curlin people crack me up ... What older horse did Curlin beat last year to make him so special...LAWYER RON ?  For those of you that don't know Lawyer Ron did not win The Derby, The Preakness, or the Belmont. His biggest claim to fame was the Arkansas Derby and he was 0-7 on any surface other than dirt. So Curlin beat Lawyer Ron... BIG DEAL.

For your information Big Brown ran the fastest Haskell in 7 years and Coal Play ran faster than Curlin did last year so please all you Curlin fans get a grip. He won the Breeders Cup but before that Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Any Given Saturday whipped his butt and he is lucky they are all retired. Hard Spun whipped him on dirt twice and his best surface was Poly.

Jason, you are absolutely correct Curlin would not have won HOY if  he had lost the Classic. To me either Lawyer Ron or Street Sense would have won HOY if either won the Classic. But if neither Street Sense, Lawyer Ron or Curlin hadn't won then I don't know who would have won it.

Huh: How soon we forget... Had the track come up dry that day at the Breeders Cup and Hard Spun was able to go wire to wire with Curlin finishing second you could have made a case for Hard Spun to be HOY. Hard Spun won the Lecomte Stakes, Lane's End, King Bishop Stakes, Kentucky Cup Classic Stakes and finished 2nd in the Derby and 3rd in the Preakness and even finished 4th at Belmont even though it was way outside of his range.  He was the World Champion 3yr. old sprinter on dirt and won numerous races on Poly unlike Street Sense and Curlin.  Hard Spun could do it all so it is easy to see that if Curlin did not catch Hard Spun HE could have been HOY.

Lawyer Ron at 4 was a monster. He won both the Whitney(in record setting time) by 4 lengths, and the Woodward by 8. Curlin last year would meet Hard Spun five times and 3 of those times he finished ahead of Hard Spun, who in the Haskel only beat Curlin by a head. Curlin would also meet SS 3 times and beat him 2. He raced AGS 3 times aswell and also beat him twice. How in any way is that getting whipped? Big Brown has yet to face any older horses this year and to me he is just like Bernardini. I know Bernardini faced older horses and won convincingly, but he never ran against the best and when he did he lost. BB isen't just ducking Curlin right now he's avoiding the older horses in general. Curlin at least faced them when he was 3 plus he won.

Draynay,

Must you be reminded that Big Brown has never faced the kind of competition Curlin has?  What 3 year olds, right now, would be comparable to Hard Spun, Street Sense and Any Given Saturday?  Of all the 3 year olds BB has faced, none of them are the caliber of those three.  Just who is this year's Hard Spun?

The reason Curlin won HOY is because he was a maiden in February and ended up winning the classic in October. In 9 months going from maiden to beating the best horses in the BC.

Draynay,

Listening to you makes one wonder how Curlin has won 9.5 mill!  Makes you want to walk away scratching your head.  How did he do it since he is such a lousy horse who has only beat fifth rate competition.  Not the tough competition that BB faced in the Haskell.  

Just wondering; What did Coal Play win prior to the Haskell?

I agree that the Breeder's Cup decided Horse of the Year last year but only because that's what it took to separate the contenders.  There were a few horses that had done enough to merit consideration and that final win was the difference.  This year there are no other 3 year old contenders (colts anyway).  I still believe that HOY is a look at the whole year - not one race.  If Curlin and Big Brown don't meet, it comes down to how much weight is given to the different races they ran in.

I agree with Jess Jackson on not runnign Curlin in the Classic. Here's a solution: Why don't Big Brown and curlin meet in the Breeder's Cup Turf? I mean, Big Brown won his debut on the turf by 13 or 14 lentghs and Curlin ran a great race in the Man O War. Besides, the turf is the race that usually gets the most Europeans and would give Big Brown the oppritunity to show he is one of the world's best horses. Tell Me what You Think.

I was contemplating whether or not it was worth the effort to offer a rebuttal to the post made earlier disparaging the accomplishments of Lawyer Ron. Seeing that LDP has already taken care of that I would just like to say that LDP's response was spot on. Couldn't have written it any better.

I was a big fan of Hard Spun last year. I agree with poster Draynay that his efforts last year have been somewhat forgotten. I agree also that HS might have been more versatile then his more heralded contemporaries as he did display an admirable surface ambidexterity. HS showed great courage in winning the King's Bishop. However, I disagree ever so slightly with the hypothetical  offered pertaining to the BC Classic, inasmuch that I'm inclined to believe that Monmouth's wet surface should have been more of an assistance to his cause that miserable afternoon rather than a hindrance given HS's style and breeding. But I don't know that for sure, just a gut feel. As a handicapper I have great appreciation for HS's 2007 campaign, but I doubt that if he had won the Classic it would have made any difference in the minds of those who vote. My guess is that they would have emphasized the fact he participated in all three TC races and was unable to win one of them.

If I might just make a statement in regard to final times. The simple fact is they don't mean squat in most instances, save for the occasional 1973 Belmont freak show of 2:24 type performance.  People who make speed figures produce a number, albeit subjectively, that takes into account the raw final time normalized for the track speed at the time the event took place. That's handicapping 101. A speed figure assigned to an event can also be used to come up with a corresponding performance figure which would also take into account such variables as ground loss vs. ground saved, atmospherics, interior fractions, race shape, field class and composition,etc,etc. Though difficult for the less erudite to comprehend that 6 furlongs run in 1:12 on one day might actually be more impressive than 1:11:2 on another, the fact remains that raw final times alone don't mean much at all. Not just an opinion, but an axiom recognized by the country's more brilliant handicapping minds.  

no match race! History has shown us what match races do, get horses killed. I dont really think anyone wants to or should risk that with these two horses.

Aiden Obrien should not fear synthetic, since he felt George Washington was injured because of a dirt surface at the BC. He stated he thought all courses should be sylnthetic for safety, so that is a moot point you make.

I dont blame Jess for not wanting to risk Curlin's life on a new surface. At a track known for probelms with their surface.

I do wish they would meet somewhere else.

So let me see if I have this right... Big Brown wins EVERY race except the one where his shoe got ripped half off and wins the Haskell, his turf race, and the Breeders Cup on Poly and you want to give it to Curlin?

Winning on 3 different surfaces and facing the best from around the world including Poly specialist and Big Brown doesn't get it?

Another horse just bailed on the BC, Proud Spell. Nobody is turning cartwheels to come run on an unproven SA surface. Whatever we're saying about it on here isn't influencing the industry. I'm wondering what level of horses we'll have there. Yes it's worth the big bucks but how many underfilled races have we seen lately that are worth half million and up? A lot. Like Larry said and like I bet a lot are thinking, whatever the horse has done to this point should be able to win the Eclipse and shouldn't be based on one race over an unproven surface. If it is, then how soon before everyone believes that the award is purely political (not to say that nobody thinks that right now). SA is my home track. What should they have done? I don't know for sure but maybe a shorter winter/spring meet and start working on the surface a little earlier into the game? Still some people might not like synthetic but could have considered one with at least a few months training time over it.

BIG BROWN and CURLIN in the Breeders Cup Turf? Talk about anti-climactic. BIG BROWN bombed, in the biggest possible way, in the 1-1/2 mile Belmont Stakes. CURLIN was a pretty decent 2nd in the Man O' War Stakes. Neither horse looks like a world-beater on turf. And BIG BROWN sure didn't do well at this marathon distance. If these two do show up in the BC Turf I think they'll be well beaten by the Europeans.

BobP let me ask you a question... if Hard Spun had won and finished ahead of Curlin who would have been HOY ?

Not Street Sense considering he beat him in the Kentucky Cup Classic and beat him in the Breeders Cup... as you know Street Sense did not even hit the board so Hard Spun would have been the logical choice since Street Sense didn't even show up for the Belmont. Hard Spun winning the Breeders Cup and being World Champion 3yr. old Sprinter on Dirt would have won him the honor.

BobP- Excellent point on final times and speed figures.This would be a very easy game to make money in if all you had to do is bet or buy the horse with the fastest times or best speed figures.

LDP - Thanks for mentioning Bernardini. I was fairly skeptical about him early in that year and going into the BC, despite his performances and often easy wins. Ultimately what it came down to for me to affirm his quality ended up being the BC that year - if he blew the field away, he obviously deserved the hype. If he'd gone eyeball to eyeball with Invasor (or anyone else) and won in a dogfight, again, well deserved accolades.

I think that's part of what feeds into my frustration about precocious three-year-olds in the years when the crops aren't as consistent or competitive (unlike last year). Much as I'm in Curlin's camp, I'll tip my hat to BB if he wins at the BC - whether that's by easy daylight, or in a dogfight. I don't think he's had to encounter many serious challenges this year, and when he did (in the Belmont) - not getting the lead, getting boxed in, bumping his way to the outside, mixed signals from the rider, the track, etc. - he folded up (and that was before KD opted to ease him). Every athlete can have an off day, and conditions can certainly defeat champions, but I don't think he's really had anyone take a race to him (except maybe in the stretch of the Haskell, and he managed to win).

Draynay,

Do BB's connection pay you to bash Curlin talk about BB like no other horse has ever been that good?  I really wonder sometimes.  I mean, I love Curlin but I give BB his due.  I think if he wins the classic (and that is a big if) he should be HOY.  You are as one dimensional as you claim Curlin to be!

Ok, here's how I see it.  I don't think, at this point, that a race that often decides HOY (whether it should or not) should be run on a synthetic surface.  We just don't know enough about them yet.  I think some tracks jumped in with both feet before we knew enough about it.  But they are here to stay and we should get used to it and I hope we find that they are all they're cracked up to be.  

As for Big Brown and Curlin, I really do hope they meet but I don't think it's going to happen.  I don't understand why Curlin's connections choose not to go to the Breeder's Cup.  If they were ok with running him in the slop last year, synthetic shouldn't stop them.  And I do agree, he wouldn't have been HOY if he had lost the Breeder's Cup.  And I think if he doesn't run in it this year that HOY for him is certainly not a given.  It seems that Curlin's connections are thinking of running him in the Japan Cup.  What the heck is that?  Do you know who won the Japan Cup last year?  No, but we all know who won the Breeder's Cup.  Curlin should defend his title.  Yes, he's already won it but hello?  It's a $5 million race and it's the Breeder's Cup!  I want to see a showdown with Big Brown!  I don't know who would win, no one does but it would bring a lot of needed, good attention to racing.  I think Big Brown would have a darn good chance, too.  He's been very impressive.  He's stomped the competition in every race that's he's actually finished (he's an animal and an athlete, they can't be perfect every time), all with triple digit BSF's.  No, his BSF in the Preakness wasn't as high as some horses in past years but remember, he didn't have to try!  He did only what was needed and he still won by over 5 lengths!  And his Haskell victory was a very good race.  The fractions were almost identical to the Florida Derby!  Very fast!  Only in the Haskell he didn't set the pace and had to go catch the pace setter who is an obvious on-the-improve 3 yr old.  Why does no one remember that?  Curlin improved a lot from the spring of his 3 yr old year to the the fall.  Lots of 3 yr olds do that. I don't care what Coal Play did in the past, he ran a very good race.  Big Brown got a 107 BSF, the race was run in a very good time, he did it in a come-from-behind fashion that he'd never done before, carrying 3lbs more than the rest of the field, after 2 months off and a hoof problem.  What more do you want?  Any other horse that did that would have been praised.  It just wasn't the visually impressive win that his others were.  And because of that, and because some people don't like his connections, they choose to put the horse down.  Which is truly sad.  The horse is a very good race horse, one of the best 3 yr olds in a long time and better than Curlin was at that age.  And Curlin's connections aren't saints either.  A couple of his owners are in jail.  Does no one remember that?  If Jackson is such a good sportsman and wants to do so much for racing and thinks a Curlin/Big Brown meet up would be so wonderful, then he should go to the Breeder's Cup.

In a perfect world, I wish Curlin and Big Brown would meet several times but if we get one that will be amazing.  And I really wish Big Brown would race as a 4 yr old.  Imagine what he could become?  He could be better than Curlin.  And don't get me wrong, Curlin has been very impressive as a 4 yr old.  But every horse has to prove themselves every time they race.  No matter who they are.

If Big Brown wins the Breeder's Cup, he'll have the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Haskell, and Breeder's Cup.  AND!  He won the Florida Derby from the 12 hole (which no horse had done before), the Kentucky Derby from the 20 hole(which no horse had done since 1929-and no horse at all had done from a modern starting gate) and was wide in both turns.  How could you not give him HOY??  I do wish he could've finished the Belmont and hadn't been eased, since his jock said he wasn't lame and didn't take a bad step.  Who knows how he would have finished?  He wouldn't have won but people thought he was through in the Haskell at the top of the stretch but he turned it on and won by almost 2 lengths!  But we'll never know.  Big Brown's Belmont will forever remain a mystery.  But one bad race doesn't erase his other impressive wins.

GO BIG BROWN!!!

Draynay: I think we need to establish first that there is a difference between which horse we as individuals would have preferred to see receive the HOY honor and the horse we think might have been chosen by the turf media given the aforementioned scenario. The moderator's view seems to be that the vote would not have been close, Street Sense would have received a vast majority of the votes. As I'm sure this matter was discussed amongst him and his peers I would have to guess he is probably correct. The position of many of us, myself included, is that if Curlin hadn't won the BC Classic he still had accomplished enough to be given serious consideration for the honor.

If Hard Spun had gone gate to wire in the Classic I believe those who vote would have collectively chosen Street Sense based on his TC victory and Travers win. If I had a vote I would have chosen Curlin based on his meteoric rise within the sophmore ranks; his defeat of Street Sense in the Preakness despite SS's better trip and momentum advantage; Curlin's participation in the entire grueling TC series; and Curlin's defeat of the four year old Lawyer Ron, the latter being a horse much better than you seem to want to give him credit for. As I stated earlier, we are in complete agreement that Hard Spun's accomplishments as a three year old cannot be overlooked by any open-minded thinker. Sadly they might have been, to some degree, but only because of the brilliance of his contemporaries. Having said that, I truly doubt if HS had won the Classic he would have been voted HOY. The voters would have written him off based on the fact he was unable to win one of the TC races. If that fact alone seems unfair I might be in agreement to some degree. If HS had been able to win the Haskell then I think there would have been a lot of agonizing in the minds of some of those with a vote.  

Those of us who have a passion for this game and, who have dedicated much of our live's energy to it, can reflect back on 2007 as a truly special year. The quadrumvirate of Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun and Rags to Riches was a gift from God to those of us who love this sport. That they performed at such a high level against one another and alongside some other special three year olds, such as Any Given Saturday and Tiago, makes their efforts last year seem all the more wonderful.

Like I said before, there will be defections from the BC, and I was right. Proud Spell and Curlin are no shows and it will get worse. BB still has something to prove, but against poly contenders? The racing commission is forcing us to like poly track by giving the BC to SA twice in a row. I see nothing but trouble when the voting for HOY are cast. I can't wait to see the blogs after this year is over.

When Street Sense failed to show up for the Belmont Stakes, I removed him from any consideration for HOY

[quote]... raw final times alone don't mean much at all. Not just an opinion, but an axiom recognized by the country's more brilliant handicapping minds[/quote]  

 BobP 17 Aug 2008 10:27 AM

Hmmmm.  I'm thinking, 'Brilliant Handicapping Minds' - isn't that an oxymoron, akin to 'Military Intelligence'?

I'm thinking, these 'Brilliant Handicapping Minds' of which you remark have a 'real' job (most of them earning their living writing columns about horse racing!lol!) - or a spouse whose income is paying the mortgage ... either that, or the 'BHM's are part of the mortgage meltdown problem! lol!

I agree, BobP, raw final times are not conclusive, in and of themselves.  Raw final times are the result of so very many variables, that they cannot be used to determine things quite as important as HOY.  Indeed, if RFTs were the determining factor, in horse racing, then we could eliminate racing, altogether, and just use computers to generate the likely speeds a horse can reach, as if they were machines, not flesh, bone and blood.  But I have another axiom, for you .... 'Only time will tell ....' (rotf,lmho!)

To me, a nobody, there's no dishonor to not to want to run at the BC, especially if you know your horse doesn't like synthetic...it's like taking a gr1 turf horse and demanding he run his BC race on the dirt & mocking him if he doesn't...PS I know the mantra "greats run on all (dirt & grass) surfaces...well, there are very few greats in racing history, and so far Student Council is the current "very good" for all 3...who knows how long we'll have to wait for a Secretariat, Man O'War to run on all 3 types of surfaces.I just love the Curlin's, Proud Spells, BTN, Ginger Punch's who dig down and try every time...that's enough for me.

What if Zenzatta remains undefeated and wins the Ladies Classic?  That would make her, what, 9-0 (if she just has one more race before the BC).  If BB loses the Classic, why wouldn't she be HOY?  Azeri pulled it off the year she was named HOY.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT EVERONE ELSE,BUT I'M MOVING ON REGARDING THE BB/CURLIN DEBATE,IF YOU CAN CALL IT THAT. IT'S PROVED TO BE A HUGE WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY,CAUSE THEY PROBABLY WON'T BE MEETING ANYWAY.

I have a couple of things to say here. First, HOY is decided at the breeders cup. For the past couple of years it has. Curlin deserved Horse of the year, he beat a good field. If Big Brown wins the Classic he deservingly should get HOY. Unless Curlin whips up some pretty impressive races which he could very well do. I'm a die hard Curlin fan and even at that I think HOY is made at the Breeders cup. Second thing, Henrythenavigator? He's classy but has he raced over a mile yet? I like him and am not trying to bring him down but lets wait and see if he can handle the distance. For Big Brown, running on turf? He won a maiden on turf. Not a grade 1 against turf experts. If he runs on turf and wins I'll be suprised. I'd heard Dutrow was picking a turf race for him. And for the three year olds this year. Give them some more time, wait at least until the travers to see if any of these guys are getting better. Curlin is way better at four then he was three I think. For now Curlin is champ, he's beaten good horses and is number one in the world rankings right now. For me to rank Big brown in front of Curlin he needs to win the breeders cup classic, over older horses, beat Curlin and win on turf. Then, he deserves to be on top. I'm in no way trying to bring either of these horses down. This is just my opinion.

BobP you are allowed to have your own opinion but how could you vote Street Sense HOY if Hard Spun had won the Breeders Cup ? Hard Spun ran ALL 3 Triple Crown races, was the dirt Sprint Champion, won on multiple surfaces and beat Street Sense easily the last 2 times they met and Street Sense finished a very weak 4th in the Cup.  Had anyone but Hard Spun won it would have been a crime.

Haven't been on for a while, but I hope you guys can help me here... Made plans to go to Philly Park for the PA Derby, I now see that Iavarone is saying that the "turf course there would not be to our liking" according to Iavarone. Do any of you guys know where Big Brown or Curlin are running next. Seems like both camps are giving one huge run around to the fans, and I for one, am getting tired of it....

Thanks!!

Thank you Teaser !  I agree SS not showing up to run the Belmont is huge and SS winning the Derby would not have been as big as Hard Spun winning the Classic.  Remember Hard Spun was Champion Sprinter 3 year old on dirt and won on Poly beating SS and on dirt.  Giving SS the HOY honor would have made no sense with Hard Spun beating him easily in the last two races and with SS not even hitting the board in the Cup.

Did Hard Spun win the Eclipse award for sprinter? I thought it was someone else. I didn't realize there are two divisions, dirt sprint and turf sprint. Please help me out here I'm confused.

All of these Curlin/BB showdown challenges are getting ridiculous. It's more bad publicity for the sport, and although I sometimes find Dutrow refreshing, I have an issue with his comment about Curlin getting beaten by a filly. If I'm not mistaken, Eight Belles was the first horse to come close to BB, AND if memory serves, that filly, Rags To Riches, who beat Curlin finished a whole lot better in the Belmont than BB did.

As for meeting each other, if Jackson has an issue with synthetics but not the turf, and BB likes the Turf, why not meet in the BC Turf? Highly unlikely, I know, but at least they would face each other.

Wanda, No. Midnight Lute, named after famed Arizona Basketball coach Lute Olson ran away with the male sprint category by over 200 votes. Maryfield was female sprint champion. There's a Male turf and a Female turf category.

Hard Spun age 3 in 07 was second in the Sprint voting. Midnight Lute age 4 in 07 won the category. I guess in some convoluted way of thinking you could say Hard Spun was the 3 year old Champion Sprinter.

    I need a little help here please.  Am I understanding it correctly that Big Brown's connections were giving it some thought to run in the Pennsylvania Derby on Monday September 1st, but wouldn't run against Curlin just 2 days earlier in the Woodward because it wasn't enough time for him to recover and prepare and the Haskell had taken a lot out of him?  Also, did Iavarone say they wouldn't run in the turf race at Philly Park on Sept. 13th even though the track was going to double the purse if he ran because the turf wouldn't be to their liking, but a lot of people are bashing Jackson for choosing not to run on the synthetic at SA because he didn't like it?

    Bottom line is, this matchup will never happen.  If Curlin opts to run elsewhere, Big Brown definitely runs in the Classic.  If Curlin runs in the Classic, Brownie is retired before that day.  Iavarone talks about running on the biggest day and not against 4 horse fields.  Why not run against 4 horse fields?  I do understand wanting to run on the big stage, but the chances of getting into trouble are much less in a 4 horse field so in theory the fastest and best should win.  In a 4 horse field, you take a lot of the "unknown" elements out of it.  Maybe the Woodward isn't the right race for Big Brown, but there is no reason the Jockey Gold Cup isn't!  If Big Brown is so much better than Curlin as Dutrow and Iavarone seem to think, then why can't he do what Curlin did last year, run in the JGC and win 4 weeks before the Classic and then wheel back and win that race as well?

    Iavarone and Dutrow want 1 shot at Curlin and that's it.  They don't want to have to face him multiple times.  They want a race like the BC Classic on synthetics and I contend that it is in part because of the unknown of the surface.  They also want a large field, not 4 horses because as I've previously stated the other "unknown" factors like breaking poorly, traffic, etc can play a huge part in the outcome whereas in a 4 horse field, although possible, it wouldn't play nearly the role.  If Big Brown were to beat Curlin in the Classic (and it's possible if they raced), Dutrow would not shut up until sometime in the year 2025.  They don't have to worry about a rematch because that's Big Brown's last race for sure.  If Curlin were to beat Big Brown (which is very likely) the excuses would roll.  He didn't like the surface, he had trouble, etc.  Again, they wouldn't have to worry about a rematch and possibly getting beat again because it's Big Brown's last race.  They know facing Curlin on dirt, especially at Saratoga or Belmont, is outright foolish so take 1 shot and be done with it.  Maybe they get lucky.  As a matter of fact, regardless of it Curlin runs in the Classic or not, even though I think Big Brown is very talented, I bet he isn't even the highest placing 3 year old in the race.  I bet Colonel John turns the tables from the Derby even though I think neither wins.

Wanda-

Your 2007 Eclipse winners. To my recollection, the  final nominees for  male sprinter were Fabulous Strike, Idiot Proof and the winner, Midnight Lute, with no distinction made as to surface, only sex:

Horse of the Year: Curlin

Two-Year-Old Male: War Pass

Two-Year-Old Filly: Indian Blessing

Three-Year-Old Male: Curlin

Three-Year-Old Filly:  Rags to Riches

Older Male:  Lawyer Ron (4)

Older Female: Ginger Punch (4)

Female Sprinter:  Maryfield (6)

Male Sprinter:  Midnight Lute (4)

Male Turf Horse: English Channel (5)

Female Turf Horse: Lahudood (GB) (4)

Steeplechase Horse: Good Night Shirt (6)

Owner: Shadwell Stable  

Breeder:  Adena Springs

Jockey: Garrett Gomez

Apprentice Jockey: Joe Talamo

Trainer: Todd Pletcher

Wanda, There's 2 Sprinter awards. Male Sprinter which was won by Midnight Lute and Female Sprinter which was won by Maryfield.

    Jason, you're absolutely right that Curlin wouldn't have won HOY if he had not won the BC Classic.  There's no argument anyone could make that could indicate otherwise.  I don't think anyone would argue that whoever had won the BC Classic last year, whether it be Lawyer Ron, Street Sense, Hard Spun or Curlin wasn't going to be assured of HOY.  However, the 3 year old crop last year was exceptional and there wasn't an older horse like Curlin running either (No disrespect to Lawyer Ron, but Curlin beat him twice at 3 so only imagine what he would do to him this year).

    However, the winner of the BC Classic doesn't always determine HOY, it's that simple.  Granted it has happened the last 4 years because the best horse in America actually won the race.  However, there were years when horses didn't even run in the BC Classic for one reason or another or failed to win the race and still won HOY (i.e. Point Given, Mineshaft, Azeri, Charismatic, Holy Bull, Skip Away, Criminal Type, etc.).  In the case of Skip Away, he won the Classic in 1997 and subsequently won 5 grade 1 races in 1998, including the Woodward and didn't win the BC Classic, but was still voted horse of the year (Sound familiar?).  Even the great Cigar won the BC Classic in 1995, failed in 1996, but was still HOY both years.  Quick, name the 3 all-time leading money winners in North America!  Sorry, I couldn't resist.  I know the Big Brown fans think otherwise, but I'm sorry, if both Big Brown and Curlin win out and they don't face each other, Curlin wins HOY regardless of the Derby/Preakness/Haskell/BC Classic wins Big Brown has.  Curlin will have won the Dubai Classic/Stephen Foster/Woodward/JGC/whatever races all against older horses, which is every bit as impressive to many.  Some might say that Big Brown won on the biggest stage and Curlin wasn't there, but Big Brown will have also had 2 chances to face Curlin and didn't show.

    Now, if Big Brown wins out and Curlin stumbles along the way, yeah I would agree Big Brown is HOY just like if Big Brown stumbles along the way, especially if it's against 3 year olds, and Curlin wins out, Curlin is HOY.  Hopefully, they will meet and decide this the way it should be, but let's face it, it's not going to happen.  Besides, if it did, what would we have to argue about?

    For Draynay, I'm just as confused as Wanda, is there a 3 year old sprint champion?  I didn't think so.  I just thought there was a sprint champion, which Midnight Lute won last year.  I also didn't know that Hard Spun beat Street Sense on poly or maybe I was just reading your post wrong.  I thought Hard Spun had only ran on poly once and that was the Lane's End.  As for Street Sense, it was huge that he didn't show up in the Belmont last year, just like it was huge that Big Brown didn't show up in this year's Belmont!  

It's sad, the great horses of the 70's took each other on multiple times.   We can't even get them together once.  BB and Curlin should run in vs each other in the JCGC, Breeders Cup and, if a tie breaker is needed ,the Clark.  

Draynay,Stop misleading the few people who take you seriously!..Hard Spun WAS NOT voted champion sprinter last year,it was Midnite Lute..And,by the way;there's no such thing as 3yo champion sprinter on dirt or turf,at least not in the US..

Jason, you say BB's connections know what's best for their horse and you give them a pass for skipping the two logical G1 dirt races this fall. Yet you won't give Curlin's team the same concession when they are apprehensive about running on a synthetic track THAT ISN'T EVEN COMPLETE and we are two months from the race. You say the new track at Santa Anita will be safe. There's no way you or anyone else know that right now!

Synthetics are a third surface -- nether dirt nor turf -- and Curlin's connections should feel no obligation to run over them, just as they were not obligated to try the turf. Just as a turf champion is not obligated to try dirt, and a sprint champion is not obligated to run long.

I think it is you who need to get used to this -- a BC held on an unproven synthetic track will not be the definitive championship event it used to be.

Jason, Love your blogs..I know you say your tired of this but...I got too man. Call me old school, but what is a horse but a part of nature? What could be more beneficial to nature then to nuture it with something natural...like DIRT, GRASS. So maybe first this is a good time to distinguish between a "champion" and a one of the "greats". (the greats are always champions) Either can have his or her favorite track/surface. John Henry, a champion and great, but on turf. So if the BC Classic is the race that decides it all, then a horse like John is out. What made him great was how he did what he did on his favorite surface. To run him on dirt would be futile. For some reason, I have known for a long time Curlin was not a synthetic liking horse. So no surprise, but to lose HOY by not (as others have said) attending the BCC is absurd. This surface is not natural,more often then not, it only gives what otherwise would be average horses an edge. So next, what, are we going to run them on cotton balls? Maybe packing peanuts instead of carpet and tires? Bottom line is the industry "predicted" these new surfaces would dramatically cut down on catastrophic breakdowns...I dont know about you but I still see them happening, especially in lower level races at these tracks with these new surfaces. Again, maybe it's not the surfaces that seems to be the cause of more break downs over time..maybe it's the legs thats running on them.

I'm intrigued to see Jason's thoughts on the suggestion of a female HOY for this year.  How do you feel that Zanzatta's performances stack up against Curlin and BB?

And yes, for now we do have to deal with synthetics as it is a POSSIBLE answer to catastrophic breakdowns.  But, I really hope that the industry is not so blinded by the apparent answer to one question that they forget to ask a lot of others.  Horses are made of a lot of parts other than just legs.  

While I can never get an answer to the question, I hope that doesn't mean that there isn't somebody somewhere who is looking at what kinds of particulates these tracks put off, how weathering and time affect what particulates are emitted, and what kind of chemical residues can leach off those particulates in the lungs/eyes.  A sound horse who developes lung cancer or chronic lung inflammation because their lungs can't clear the synthetic particles or are chronically inflammed by chemicals leached from those particles that they inhaled day after day for a few years is just as dead.  One only has to look as far as the past few years of pharmaceutical recalls to see examples where we've rushed to implement the "next greatest development" only to find out a few years later that we didn't know enough yet.

There seem's to be quite a bit of contraversy about how many horses are going to take to *synthetic* tracks. For as long as most of us can remember horses have either ran on dirt or turff. Every horse up until just a few years ago was trained for either one surface or the other *some were trianed for both* so it would stand to reason that some horses will not take to the synthetic surface as readly as other's do.

I am sure that there is a *huge* difference in the way a synthetic/poly track feel's to a horse then that of dirt or turf. With that being the case then I feel that the trainer's are in some way starting from scratch with their training methods just to get a horse preped for a synthetic corse. Although there are a lot of people that are dead set against synthetic/poly surface's all toghether what they have to realize is that those track's are here to stay and as the year's progress we will see more and more of them appearing at track's all over the USA.  

it's to be expected that some horses just wont like a synthetic/poly track at all and there for they will not run as good a race as they normaly would have on dirt or turf. It's going to make it a whole tuffer for betting and handicapping that's for sure.

As for BB and Curlin meeting up I agree that it should happen at the Breeder's Cup! BB's connection's have stated from the get go that the BCC was their main intent. If Curlin's connection's want the match up so badly then why not attend the Breeder's Cup?

The line has been drawn in the sand! Either Curlin's connection's will step up to the plate and take up the challange and settle the whole thing for all the world to see or they wont.

It doesn't matter what a horse did last year,last month or last week! That's all a matter of history.  What matter's is what the horse does the next time they step out on the track. What is they say "The proof is in the pudding".

Are we all forgetting what happened last year?  Curlin ran third in the Haskell, after coming off of a HUGE race in the Belmont.  Then won against older horses in the Jockey Club Gold cup, then put everyone away in the Breeder's Cup Classic.  Didn't seem like the timing was off for him...why does Big Brown get to use that excuse?

Okay, I'm going to get slammed here by the Big Brown fans but ENOUGH! Why does a horse like Curlin who has traveled as far as Dubai have to work his schedule around a 3 year old who is not the "second-coming" of Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, or Spectacular Bid, he is a good 3 year old who has to prove that he deserves being called this year's best 3 year old. The ball has always been in Big Brown's court not Curlin's. If Dutrow and his owners think that they have the best than suck it up and go to the Jockey Club Gold Cup! The Breeders' Cup is important but enough with this is the race that decides who is Horse of the Year when we have had a 100-1 shot win it and not be declared Horse of the Year, so let's start putting things back in perspective and looking at total performances not just one race.

It's time for the powers that be to own up to the mistake they made scheduling the Breeders Cup over a fake track. This years addition will be recorded with an asterisk and should have little or no bearing on HOY honors. The quality of competition in the Classic is shaping down to be the weakest in recent memory and perhaps ever.

In no way are the connections of Curlin or any of the others who will not be there because of the surface obligated to run there. Furthermore nowhere is it written that you have to win the Classic to be HOY. If so they neglected to hold that against recent HOY Azeri. This year is entirely different than any in the past.

The Classic is shaping up to be a typical Big Brown race where the competition is very weak. Either he faces weak opponents or he faces opponents who are have not yet reached their full potential.

What a shame that his connections have so little confidence that they continue to seek races where they know he won't be facing the best at  their peak.

How lucky can one horse get? First Big Brown is born into a very sub-par class and now the defections from the Breeders Cup Classic should make it a cake walk for him. Big Brown HOY? Not a snowballs chance in haetes.

i think big brown and curlin should both be in the classic racing fans desarve to see their superstars run aginst each other on racing biggest day

Jason - since when has what Curlin done this year not been enough for HOY, if he wins the Woodward and then the Jockey Club Gold Cup and then maybe goes to Japan and wins after all of that you would still deny HOY to him. What gives? What does everyone else see in Big Brown that I and apparently some others are missing? The Wiz is right, the Breeders' Cup Classic alone should not decide HOY, with everything that Azeri had proven it was denied to her. And yes, Zenyatta has been totally awesome but even if Big Brown loses along with Curlin losing a race and Zenyatta yet winning again she would not get HOY because winning the Kentucky Derby is more important. Priorties are getting messed up. Total performances throughout the year should be what judges HOY and Big Brown's turf win against maidens does not matchup with Curlin's second place finish in the Man O' War a grade I against two former Breeders' Cup Turf winners. Again, what am I missing? I'm not trying to be obnoxious here I just am having trouble understanding the logic of others in regards to this HOY business.

One last point Jason, why is winning the Kentucky Derby, the Preakness, Haskell and BC not enough to win HOY...when you have a horse like Curlin who is and has been winning the way that he has. Why is everyone seeming to dismiss Curlin now, if he had won the Man O' War I think that you would be singing a different tune. He is the horse that Big Brown has to beat to win HOY, what Big Brown has accomplished when weighed against the travels that Curlin took in the spring and won against international horses, came home to win the Stephen Foster against some good horses and then run as good as he did on the turf with limited training over that surface I think that shows just how good a horse Curlin is. Maybe the reason these 3 year olds are retired so soon is the fact that we give them more attention than we should when the older horses are out there proving themselves month after month, year after year but the money is made in the stud barn on who the current hot 3 year old is. 3 year olds are nice and I love the Triple Crown but what made Seattle Slew and Affirmed even better after winning the Crown was the fact that they raced on at 4, it made their Crown even more impressive for they showed just how much they deserved to win it and just how great they truly were.

Thanks guys but I have a confession to make. I was kind of messing with he who we don't name. I kept reading about how Hard Spun was champion 3 year old sprinter.Slew.em.all picked up on that. Again sorry I don't want to offend anyone well maybe not everyone but you know what I mean.

Jason's right about HOY, whoever wins BC will get the nod.

Wanda, I'm not sure the other informative folks picked up on what you were asking, too subtle. My convoluted remark obviously was not for you.  LOL and LMAO at the same time.

On the question of the surface. If you live in CA you suffered through the garabage last year, bad enough SA is suing over it. They don't seem terribly motivated to get it up and running, horses should be able to train over this now. Who's to say this track will be any better?

It looks like BB is being pointed to the Monmouth Stakes (1 1/8 mile 3 yos on the grass).I didn't think they could find a softer field than the Haskell.

Jason:

Please don't take this as snarky, I am respectfully asking the question below because the discussion is interesting and because other than blatantly obvious ones, I find it hard to discern who should be HOY when they don't necessarily face each other or peak at the same time of year, etc.

So what is it about the combination of races that BB won that makes you put BB over the others for HOY?  Was it the timing/distance, was it the class of the competition, the style of the win, fractions/final times... what is it about the combination of races that BB has won vs those Curlin won vs Zenyatta that makes the difference?(I am NEVER going to manage her name!)

Since the BC Classic winner is coming out of the Pacific Classic this Saturday (Well Armed?) the whole horse of the year picture is going to be fuzzy.  If BB's connections were serious about the BC Classic they would have him out west running against these older horses.  They think they have horse of the year honors wrapped up.  I bet he does not ever set foot in California.

Azeri was Horse of the Year in 2002.

Wanda, Big, Brad and me got it, their comments were tongue in cheek and props to one of their Alma Mater's Coach O.  I've been watching enough movies about the boy wizard that I can even picture what 'he who must not be named' looks like.

Jason, I have an idea how to resolve this issue. Everybody make your prediction what will happen with BB put it in a sealed envelope, send them to Jason,after the BC Jason can give a tshirt to whoevers right. Good thing you're in KY and I'm in Cali, you probably want to murder me. Fractures gives a guy too much time to think or worse it's he who must not be named infiltrating my thoughts. Wow Wanda, there's a scary thought, practicing my BB is The Greatest horse living or dead with a straight face.

have things gotten so complicated that two great horses can't run a challenge race because the wind isn't blowing the right direction that day?

Your article is nice but I have to disagree.  Horses have been running on dirt and grass for centuries, how natural is it to be running on some fake surface? Yes I do agree with you that synthetic surfaces may save a horse or two a season but how many horses that don't perform well get slaughtered each year anyway? To complete my statement they are spending millions of dollars to fix a racetrack's surface, I could think of a thousand things to put that money to better use, like putting in a traditional dirt surface.

Who is right or who is wrong?Jackson is very good at shooting off his mouth.  Add Dutrow, and you have a television series.  Luckily, the two horses can not read!

Jason I'm sorry i normally agree with you, but on this case i don't. I like both BB and Curlin, though I do preffer Curlin. In answer to your question since when is winning the Derby, Preakness, Haskell, and possibly the BCC not enough to marit HOY? The answer to that would be when a horse goes and wins the Dubai World Cup, avoids the Dubai bounce in the Stephen Foster, get second in his first start on grass against grade 1 competition, then goes on to possibly win the Woodward, the JCGC, and the Japan Dirt Cup. Just a reminder if he goes to Japan and wins he will have wins in 3 countries, the US, Japan, and the UAE. If Curlin goes on to do that will you still deny him HOY? To me that is greater than anything BB has acheived, and i couldn't possibly think of voting BB HOY over Curlin. Please tell me if i am wrong and am not perceiving another point.

A front runner like Big Brown getting pressure from quality horses will back up everytime on a synthetic surface. I agree Curlin should run in the Classic, his style is perfect for how these tracks play. Big Brown's style in a quality race would almost certainly keep him off the board. If the Big Brown people really wanted to take Curlin on they should run in The Woodward the distance and track would give BB a shot. At 10 furlongs getting pressured by quality horses, on a speed blunting track, with a horse like Curlin stalking him, I can't see him beating Curlin under such circumstances.

My picks for this weekend's BC Challenge races:

Pacific Classic: Well Armed

Del Mar Mile: Runaway Dancer

Pat O'Brien: Midnight Lute

And I'll throw in some others:

Travers: Macho Again

King's Bishop: Salute the Sarge

Personal Ensign: Ginger Punch

Molly Pitcher: Hystericalady

Play the King: Off Duty

I don't believe Jess Jackson has an aversion to engineered surfaces per se but rather, I believe that for whatever reason he and the others in Curlin's camp feel they have sufficient evidence that they would be risking the indignity of losing to animals they know are inferior. It bears repeating, synthetic surfaces collectively represent a third surface, a reality that the powers that be in Lexington would prefer not be discussed. Perhaps Curlin's people have seen him move over the Keeneland training track enough times to know his movement isn't quite the same and that he'd be at physical risk if asked to do so within the intensity of a world class graded stakes competition. Whatever the true reason, whether it be protecting his reputation or his physical well-being, I'm sure it falls under the umbrella of doing what's right for their horse. Isn't that what's expected most from owners and horsemen? Jess Jackson's first obligation is to Curlin, not to the Breeders' Cup and their revolution of turning the sport on its head.

The Breeders' Cup has decidedly taken an activist role on the issue of synthetic surfaces, and they are expecting compliance and support from all the players. Their hasty announcement about the BC site for 2009 was made a few short days prior to former NY Governor Elliott Spitzer's announcemet that the NYRA would retain the rights to conduct NY racing. If they had waited until the customary year and a half prior to event time frame for announcement they would have lost one of their red herring excuses for not holding the event in NY. And now I'm hearing reports of Woodbine and/or Keeneland as probable sites in the not too distant future. Gee, what a surprise.

Curlin's connections haven't been secretive about their steed's schedule and goals for 2008. How anyone could not view IEAH and their chatty trainer's blabbering as disingenuous is beyond me. Curlin is recognized at this time as the best horse on dirt in the world. His people are willing and ready to defend that claim if the event is conducted on, well, actual dirt. If the IEAH folks really think different and feel they can prove it then let them follow Curlin to the ends of the earth for a showdown on the kind of surface they both earned their reputations, even if it leads them to the Isle of Honshu.

Jordan A: Here's a prediction. I predict that BB will be retired shortly. Culin's owner will have a change of heart and run in the Classic. How do you like that! (I'm serious folks).

Wanda: I think that your right but unless BB gets hurt between now and September 12th or 13th when he runs in the Monmouth turf race he's not gonna get retired. But his connections might think about it after that.

Yes, I am a big Curlin fan but that's because I wait year after year for that 3 year old that blossoms into a great 4 year old, we need those horses to keep people interested in horseracing in general not just when the 3 year old Classics come around. I apologize if I sounded fanatical but I've been watching the sport I love take some big hits and with attendance twindling year after year I worry. But when we get a horse like Curlin who hangs around like Alysheba, Ferdinand, Spectacular Bid and others it gets the everyday person involved, people called Alysheba "America's Horse" or "the people's horse" so when we can get the average person going to the tracks to see their personal favorite then we've accomplished a good deal for horseracing. We need to have emphasizes put back on the older handicappers who hang around including our female stars that often get overlooked. Zenyatta is terrific and so is Ginger Punch. Let's look at the racing industry as a whole just as we should look at the entire racing year as a whole for performances. Big Brown should get Champion 3 year old but Curlin does not need to chase Big Brown to whatever race he choses to run in, Curlin is the reigning HOY and it is up to Big Brown to show why he should dethrone Curlin.

Huh:I think BB is already hurting. He's had no foot under him since spring. I don't care what they tell the media you can't keep going on a horse with quarter cracks. They don't heal unless you quit on them and get real agressive with a specialist. I think it's a shame because he is a very,very nice 3 year old.

I thought the path to HOY was the Monmouth Stakes.Why don't they prep in a nice 2 other than on the grass @ Calder. Oh I forgot, its to hot this time of year.

Jason what is really not hard to understand is this years Classic is not shaping up to be anything special at all. To decide a Championship is more than just based on the fact they may have been decided in the race years prior.

The Big Ole Browneye has faced nothing in comparison to the quality of animal previous HOY winners did and that is not going to change. What a joke to send him to Monmouth to race in a Non-Graded Stakes. It is very clear that his connections are concerned about his real class. Their best shot at HOY at this point is to duck all competition until the Classic and take a one time shot. They are going to the Classic knowing full well it will be a very watered down group to face.  Clever tactics to hope the voters ignore the fact this years edition will be inferior to previous years but can they really fool everyone into believing the Big Ole Browneye should win HOY after facing virtually nothing all year.

All his wins have come against what everyone knows is a weak group of 3 yr. olds and if he wins at Monmouth that is only a Non-Graded Stakes anyway. Sure he won the races you mentioned but against nothing at the time he faced them. Graded Stakes for 3 yr. olds such as races won prior to the Derby by others have to have a winner too. That doesn't mean they are top quality competition as clearly proven by the caliber of horse Brownie has faced at the time he met them.

This year is unlike any in memory with the weak 3 yr olds when Brownie faced them and the Classic being run over a fake surface that will weaken the quality of horse run there. HOY should and I hope always be decided on the current years situation which is in the Big Ole Browneyes case doesn't add up. You can win G1's like Brownie has shown against a quality of horse that is far below previous years competitors and it means little. No way should it matter where prior years winners have run. The quality of animal when you face them should always be the biggest factor and Brownie fails miserably there.  

Huh...I like Well Armed in the Pacific Classic as well.  It seems Eoin Harty has him poised for a big run off his San Diego Handicap win at Del Mar.  Based on his San Antonio and San Pasqual efforts last winter at Santa Anita if he get the extra 1/8 mile he should take both the Pacific Classic and the Breeder's Cup Classic.  

ZENYATTA now owns the track record for 1 1/16 at Del Mar (1:41.48).  You Tube the Clement L Hirsch Handicap and you'll remember why you like horse racing. Whos record did she best?  Well Armed who runs in the Pacific Classic this Saturday after wins in the San Diego H and San Antonio (I believe).  She loves large fields and deserves a shot at the boys.

While I personally believe Curlin to be the better of the two, I agree with Jason that a horse should not be held accountable for the quality of his competition.  The races won and the "manner" in which they were won is more more important than "who" they ran against.  Looking back at the "greats" of the past, the vast majority of them did not run against stellar competition either, but they way they won was what made the great impressions. I believe Big Brown is a good horse but he hasn't proven his greatness to me yet.  And lastly, I still don't believe the breeders cup should decide the championship unless it is only the icing on the cake of the horse that is overall the most accomplished for the year.

Wanda: I agree with you that Big Brown is running hurt but as much as his connections know they should retire him because of this, they won't because they think they're better than Curlin which they're not and they know the rest of the world thinks Curlin is better so they think by winning the Classic and then beating Curlin in a possible match race matchup in December, then the world will think he's better.

J;

A question, is not the BBC a tool to use to pick the HOY and not just the only reason? I think back over the years and see both ways. The HOY decided as a show down between X,Y,Z, and then I've seen it where horses win their division and HOY off just that race with not a lot behind them  to back it up. If the year was 89, and neither SS or EG ran in the classic..Who wins?

SundaySilenced:

My best guess for the 89' HOY if Sunday Silence or Easy Goer rain in the Classic then I think that Blushing John would win because he finished 3rd behind SS and EG in the Classic and won the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pimlico Special and 2 G2's in 89', so he would get my vote. (If I had one)

Huh,

Thanks for your response. I guess I would have to agree with you, however, since Jason gets a vote here I'm trying to determine how they arrive at their choices. Do you get more points from running in a triple crown races vs. something like the Gold Cup? The derby is THE DERBY, so I give full credit for that race, however much changes during the year for that to sometimes continue to be a factor. I'm so confused, how did we EVER pick a HOY before the BC?

The quality of competition should ALWAYS be the deciding factor of how one stacks up. Regardless of how the race is graded it means nothing if only one or god forbid no quality animals shows up to run.

Maybe they should wait until after the year ends and grade races based on who ran in them and where they were at the time in relation to their development for the year. This would not change the purse structure but would eliminate the appearance of winning a tougher race than it may really have been.

Rating a race before it is run really makes no sense at all. There are no assurances as evidenced by this years races restricted to 3 yr olds that you get the same quality as you should expect.

Winning the Tour De France if Lance Armstrong doesn't show up and the best of the competition is injured or disqualified because of drugs doesn't make the "eventual winner" a superstar. He's just best of the rest.

Scoring 80% on a test while the rest of the class does less doesn't make you an "A" student. It happens all the time.

Being a member of the Jamacian Bobsled Team and competing in the Olympics doesn't mean you are one of the best teams in the world. You had nobody to beat to get there.

I could go on and on. The point is victory means far more if it comes against real competition.

Jason, BB may not have control of who he faces, but his connections do, and the point is they always put him against inferior competion, sorry if i spelled that wrong. IEAH and Dutrow will only run BB in the softest spots, where he is almost garunteed to win, ever since they got that stud deal befor the preakness. For example BB ran in a weak Travers field, when he could've had another week of rest and taken on, for this year, a very tough Travers feild. BB connections though opted for the Haskel, the easier of the two races. Now BB conections want to run him in a specially made turf race, taylor made for him, and where almost nobody will show up. Curlin, may have run in the Haskel last year aswell, but it was a tough field, with AGS and HS, two of the biggest names in the 3yr old division that year. Curlin also in his next race went to take on the top older horse in 07, Lawyer Ron, in the JCGC. BB has yet to face the top in the handicap division, and I'm talking other than Curlin, and he probably never will. BB will wait till the BCC, when most of the real competion is gone, and when there is a good chance that many of the others their will not take to the track. So saying BB has no control on who he runs against is not a legitimate statement, when his connections, could pick out races with tougher competion.

LDP:

I couldn't agree more.

Two really good horses and unless they ran a couple of races against each other with no excuses it would be hard to say which is better.  The stop watch shows similar times but if you factor in Big Brown's domination in his races and Kent not asking for more it is hard to say how fast he can go.  I saw him in the KY Derby and I think he could have broke the track record that day. I was on the outside rail when he took the lead and I have never seen a non sprint horse run that fast.  Had the awesome Filly not been in the race it would have been the biggest blowout in the history of the race.  Curlin has more experience and some realy nice victories for sure and nearing $10MM in earnings.  It is too bad the two won't meet but I really think on a good day with all being equal Big Brown is too fast for Curlin even though factoring in Curlin is 4 and is probably the better over all horse.  All I know they are making millions of dollars on the fans and they should give us the heart pounding show we all want to watch no matter who you are pulling for.  It is horse racing for crying out loud.  Put the best horses against each other and give us what we want to see.

I think one of biggest reasons horse racing is getting less coverage as a sport is the 'sporting chance' is getting seen less often. Well known horses like BB and Curlin really need meet. Also, often due to unsoundness  they're not racing long enough to get a fan base. I was thrilled when Curlin kept on racing.  Often the older racers are geldings but sometimes we see mares racing that are 6.

I love it!  Those that keep on racing are sound, which is desperately needed. The rush to the breeding shed is not just killing the business as a sport with fans, but breeding unsoundness on and on.  We don't need synthetic tracks as much as we need strong legs and feet, that carry the speed.  

Thanks Huh,

   Just curious and i hope you don't take offense but how did you come up with your chat name? You seem like you know what your talking about most of the time, not clueless.