I think this is a very good prep for Brownie, and a perfect set up for the classic. It's also against some very good older horses that will give him some competition. He is already an established Gr.I winner so I don't think this ungraded race makes any difference in the level of competition he's up against. With this type of company I give this race a Gr.2 rating. And I'm very much looking forward to seeing this contest.

I hate to say I told you so Jason but I've been preaching the feet issue all spring. Don't get me wrong I think he's a monster 3 year old but the connections were saying the feet were no big deal all year. Now they do a 180 and say he's got bad feet Duh. I just wish they were a little more up front from day one. They may have fooled the average race fan but they never fooled real horsemen. Sometimes good horses go bad and there's nothing you can do about it.We'll never know how good he is on turf cause your right, this isn't top drawer. I'll say it one more time, he wasn't managed right after the Preakness. They should have got his feet issues under control first then look at a fall campaine if possible.

I'm always excited when a horse like Big Brown runs! Sure it's not the "usual way" to bring up a horse for The Classic, but he does have the bad feet---and they drew up special races for Secretariat--one at Arlington and I believe The Marlboro Cup was written with him in mind--in other words, when you're a star, tracks will go out of their way for you and I see no problem with that. The actual race is no walkover, but I see Brownie in a romp in his first try v elders...I thought his Haskel was a very decent race but not his best...for that matter, Curlin's Woodward was also lacking, perhaps opening the door for a Zenyatta run for all the marbles! Why not? Her Ramona was strong, her kick is awesome--why not? She's already smoked Ginger Punch, why not see if she's the best horse, period? At any rate, I'm rooting for Brownie this weekend! I think he's the real deal/think they'

re running for second against him....

Jason,

I think this could very well be his last race, especially with the chance of it going to the main track. How long are his feet going to hold up? Are they just standing there with their fingers crossed or what?? I agree he should have showed up in the Travers. Another question, when he loses, what do his connections do then? This will be interesting. I'll be watching.

Thanks for another great blog, Jason.

I never thought about criticizing the connections for bypassing Saratoga, skipping a graded stakes race and having this one created specifically for them. I appreciate your reservations on this point, but I'll defer to the judgement of Ivarone, Dutrow, et al. Not saying I disagree with you, just that I'm not qualified to criticize anyone.

Having said that, I think the Monmouth Stakes is coming up competitive. You've got Shakis, Silver Tree, and Proudinsky in it, and that will make things interesting for Big Brown. It's also Brownie's first turf race since his two-year-old debut, and even though the grass is kinder to the horse's feet, as I write this, I think there's something like a 60% chance of rain showers. That could soften up the turf and I don't recall if Big Brown ran huge on a firm course or a softer one in his debut. Hopefully the surface will hold up though and won't affect him.

I know a few folks who think Shakis in particular is the horse to beat, and one individual doesn't even think Big Brown will hit the board. Brownie doesn't necessarily have to win tomorrow, but he does need to run well. The goal is the BC Classic for the horse, and I think his owner and trainer are putting him in spots that will not only be easier on his feet, but that will also make it more likely that he'll peak come BC day. Anyway, that's my take on it, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Here's another thought: Assuming Curlin doesn't come to the BC, and if Big Brown runs huge tomorrow, why not try the horse in the BC Turf instead of the Classic? I realize that form generally transfers better from turf to synthetic, but if Brownie wins tomorrow, why not keep him on a sure thing instead of the unknown? The Classic has been the determining factor in the last four years in choosing HOTY, and rightfully so. But should it always be this way? I know that's what Dutrow is thinking, but unless Curlin runs in and wins the Japan Cup Dirt (and assuming he's out of the BC), I think it would be extraordinary for a horse to  win two-thirds of the Triple Crown and then America's biggest turf race against some of the world's best grass horses. He would show that he's a superb runner on dirt and grass, and the fact that's he's already excelled on dirt with those fragile feet is something that cannot be ignored.

I'm getting way ahead of myself, and that's obviously not the plan for Big Brown anyway, so I'll leave it at that.

Ever since the Belmont Stakes debacle, I've become quite fond of Big Brown. I really want to see this horse succeed and it saddens me that he's always under such scrutiny. The horse is the pure and innocent one, has already achieved a lot, yet he's never really been a popular racehorse or what one would call America's horse. Curlin notwithstanding, when the year is over, I'd love to see Big Brown emerge as the biggest star, or at least one of the two biggest.

If they wanted to ensure the legacy of the colt and have him considered one of the "Great" ones they should have run in the JCGC or Goodwood. With the way he drifted out in the Haskell and his subsequent series of less than spectacular works I personally do not think he is fully recovered physically.  I think he may be vulnerable even against this group: there is speed signed up, it is a large field and his tendency to be headstrong may be his undoing.  They have no room for excuse about the surface because they have been bragging for weeks how he is so much better on turf than dirt and how Dutrow won the Derby with a turf horse. Guess, We will all know after Saturday...

I'm happy to see him run again.  I really think he should have run in the Travers though or the Woodward or the JCGC. This may not be a graded stakes but at least he is running against older horses, not elite older horses but at least not all 3 year olds.  He needs to do that.

I am in agreement with Wanda.  I think those feet are seriously bad. I cannot imagine what the horse goes through when he has to run if his feet are that tender.  He really has nothing left to prove.  He is a wonderful and dynamic horse and had a monster spring.  I think this race has been picked to save his feet.  People get mad at KD because he holds him back from going to the front, well that's because a quick start puts too much strain on his feet.  I just hope the horse is not suffering, I cannot stand the thought of that.  He gives his all out there, even when it's uncomfortable for him.  He has great courage and heart and I hope his feet don't get worse.  

Johnny,

You're right, this horse has had to suffer through this year because of his connections, not his fault.  He will definitely be Best 3 year old and if he wins the classic, HOY.  I don't think anyone hates this horse at all.  He's just doing what he was bred to do and done it beautifully, his record proves that and nobody can argue that fact.

I agree -- I love the move to turf, but why not try a graded race? If Brown's connections were looking for an easy win, they may be disappointed, as the purse has attracted an easily GIII-quality field; on the other hand, if he runs well, it will be more of an accomplishment than if he simply dominated lesser competition. Big Brown certainly has the ability to win this -- though the weather will be one thing to watch, as he has never run on off turf -- but my top pick will be Silver Tree. Drum Major, Proudinsky and Shakis also are present to give Brown some real competition.

As a so-called "prep" for the BC,

this IEAH-manufactured "event" is just plain silly: no one, including BB, will know what to make of his ProRide credentials until those truly awful feet he inherited from his Sire, Boundary, touch the synthetic stuff and he works on it. The Monmouth grass isn't going to prove a thing.

This is more about a trainer trying to get a horse race fit, mentally and physically, while preserving those feet 40 days out from the BC, much more than it is about anything else.

In fact, a plausible case can be made that while IEAH seeking a soft spot, this race and this field of older horses could prove to be a classic trap in the making instead: if the likes of Get Serious and Kiss the Kid can provide honest if not hot early fractions, then a late closer like Shakis favored? Then there is Proudinsky and the guy who seems to get more run the older he gets, Silver Tree-- that's the other horse in the field Kent had better know where and how he's tracking in relation to BB. BB needs to be a sharper horse than the one winning the Haskell to win here, but how much sharper? His training suggests he is pointing in the right direction, but is that enough here? Yes, I know BB broke his maiden on the turf at Saratoga and won by 11 and change, and the funny thing is, that's his only career start when Kent wasn't in the irons. Yes, BB could have found a stronger race, but frankly, I am surprised he isn't already at Three Chimneys flushing the Whinny out of his system preparatory to starting stud duty.

Digression: see where Showing Up headed to Adena Springs South? While I admit he was never a show-stopper walking down the trailer ramp or the shedrow in the morning, all he did was fire every time out, and the only time out of the money being that troubled yet distinguished 6th in only his third career start in the KY Derby won by "the other" Lael horse, Barbaro. His all-too-brief career on the turf simply spectcular, and that first time out on the turf in the Colonial Turf Cup running down Kip Deville is something I will never forget. Hard to imagine he will attract a uniformly high quality book at a venue as impressive as Frank Stronach's north of Ocala (and as strong as this regional market is), but if he stamps his foals with his heart and competitive fire, some breeder/pinhooker is going to hit the proverbial jackpot, given his modest $7,500 stud fee, and then Showing Up moves up to stand in KY after all? Thanks to the Jacksons, Barclay Tagg and all connections for giving us a horse to remember--Showing Up.

DK,

I personally don't know if Big Brown is actually better on turf than dirt; after all, despite his monster win in his debut on the grass, it would be pretty tough to duplicate his efforts in the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, and Preakness. So I'm not sure dirt vs grass is so much a question of  talent as it is his feet. He's no doubt more comfortable on the grass, and naturally would be more inclined to run better, when his feet feel better. Any athlete, equine or human, would respond in like manner. And that's just another reason why I think this is a very special horse. I'm not necessarily calling Big Brown a great one at this point, but to win those races in the manner that he did, and on a surface that is harder on his feet, is, in my opinion, remarkable.

Jason you have it exactly right.I would like to add that no matter what happens BB's connections have all their bases covered.They have already indicated in another publication that they are not expecting a lights out performance.They just want him to get something out of it and that he moves forward. One thing for sure is that nobody in that race is afraid to run against him... I think if he doesn't run an impressive winning race it will be his last race.

It turned me off. Big Brown is a standout but if your going to prep for the Classic on turf, do it somewhere were your going to run against some top class horses. Curlin ran against two breeders cup winners and another grade 1 winner.  C'mon!

I am extremely excited! Even if he loses I will be happy. I am trying to enjoy the rest of the races we have to see Big Brown run. Personally,yes,I think BB should have come to the Travers..I think he would have won. But that wasn't for him I guess. Who cares if the Monmouth stakes not graded..who cares if it's the first time this race is being held? Really? I don't! I'm just happy to see him here. How come every time the name Big Brown is brought up people never talk about the horse. It always turns into bashing his connections.Or something around there. Again,who cares about them! It's  about the horses,this is not Hollywood people. Let the horses run...it doesn't matter what race...let them run and be done with it. I can't wait to see Brown go to post tomorrow,and I can't wait to see him in the BC. He will always be a champion to me,no matter what races he wins or loses.

I'm happy to see Big Brown run - as everyone should be.  I guess we horse racing fans are never satisfied!  

But I think its utterly ridiculous to run a Derby champion - on the turf and in a created ungraded "stakes" race with an inflated purse.  Yeah, I get all the reasons that Jason noted above.  I think his feet are the biggest problem that is driving the connections to do what they are doing.  However, say BB runs this weekend and wins.  Say his feet are so bad that he never runs again.  What chance does he have for HOTY against Curlin?  None.  And, if he does run and win, then runs in the Classic...and gets trounced.  Still no chance against Curlin.  I don't think BB could win the Classic unless he started running now...and I'm a BB fan.  I just wish they would have been able to put him away for the year and let his feet heal properly and then rev up for a championship 4yo campaign.  But, no such luck.  See, we fans are hard to please!

I wish Big Brown had chosen a graded turf stakes race for his next outing. Creating the Monmouth Turf Stakes, for me, added ire to the irk. I will enjoy watching it though and I hope all come out healthy and ahead of Big Brown.

BCbound: I understand what you are saying but the connections are making the decisions on this horse and in my opinion they made some wrong ones. The horse hasn't got any say in it and he's got a great resume in spite of it all. They sat there all spring and said the feet were a non issue and ran the horse with their fingers crossed. Thats a bad call, Duntrow knows better. If you go public and make statements you better not be back tracking 3 months later. It's not rocket science.

Reading all these comments about BB's bad feet which has been talked about all year; that's just great when he goes to the breeding shed. Hopefully he will be bred to sounder, better-footed mares.  Otherwise, maybe we'll watch another Kentucky Derby winner prep on the turf for the BBC!

Seems to me the older BB gets the worse his feet get. I hate to sound pessimistic but I think it will be a miracle if he makes it to the BC. He is obviously dodging the competition.

Libby,

I'm sorry you feel this way about Big Brown, and I can understand some of your frustration, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

Your comments (and you certainly have a right to express them) are examples of what I meant when I remarked in an earlier post that the horse has been scrutinzed so much and remains relatively unpopular. And you for one, hope he loses.

Big Brown has given us some real thrilling performances, and except for the Belmont Stakes, has won everything. He didn't choose to skip a graded turf race either, his connections did, as I know you realize. But it's their horse, and their call.

I just wish people would learn to appreciate and love this horse for what he has achieved, and for who he is, instead of remaining unsatisfied because perhaps their own expectations haven't been met.

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were both very popular racehorses; yet after their Belmont Stakes races, both were retired due to injuries. Big Brown is still running and winning, despite being plagued by bad feet. And yet, he's never been given the affection that was accorded these other horses. I know it's probably because of the connections and how people have been second-guessing them all along, but I don't think it's fair to the horse.

I love how people say that HE'S the one dodging the competition.  At least HE'S actually running in the Breeder's Cup Classic!  The fact that the horse is even still running is nigh-miraculous.  The fact that people are still miserable just shows how great horse racing fans are at finding things to complain about.

And Saratoga is where champions go?  Hate to break it to you, but seven out of the last nine 3yo colt champs didn't run there either.  Curlin bypassed Saratoga to run in the Haskell last year, did you criticize him then?

I will always LOVE to see Brownie run.....however, this is for me like buying a Hyundai - you expect the "look" and features of Mercedes or BMW without paying the price (I'm so sorry if I offended any Hyundai lovers!!) Its just a figure of speech, you want to look good without spending too much money. Brownie connections want to race him, but they prefer to stay away from a "big price" - read: if Brownie would be defeated in any bigger race.

I will still enjoy and watch him live, but the newly created "stakes" has taken away something from Brownies glamour...

I know this blog is about BB but I have to respond to the comment regarding Curlin's Woodward effort. I was at Saratoga for the Woodward sitting between the far turn and the eighth pole. The pace through 3/4 mile was blistering and still when Robbie asked Curlin to run he took off, made up at least 8 lengths and caught Past the Point by the eighth pole. No other closer in the race made a move except Curlin. Sure he labored some in the final eighth of a mile, but if the race had been 1 ¼ instead of 1 1/8 mile he would have won by 10 lengths. I watched Big Brown’s Haskell and he did not make a move when asked so there’s really no comparison between the two races. Having said that, I like BB and hope he does well on the turf and comes out of the race OK for the Classic…

In general, as the Breeders' Cup becomes the only focus of owners/trainers, and as older established races are bypassed to keep a horse "fresh," racing in general becomes a more obscure and ignored sport.  On Big Brown in particular, while I agree that the owners have nothing to gain at this point, the sole concern should be for the horse's health and comfort, i.e. those tender feet.  Excited about the race? No.  I'll be relieved when Brownie walks off of the track, I hope a winner, but above all healthy.

I'm just thrilled to be able to see him up close one more time. I do hope he runs well. And, who has ever heard of the front office of a race track, babysitting  a dog, just so this fan doesn't miss the race??

The staff at Monmouth are a class act. I love this track and hopefully Brownie will do it proud!!

 It will be nice to Big Brown run again, but not exciting.  His connections chose a very soft spot for him.  The competition he is facing is by no means the top tier on the Turf, and haven't even won a grade 1.  If he wins it won't be a surprise, and if he loses, it will just mean he's regressed, or is maybe suffering some hidden physical problem.  

 It would be great to see the old Big Brown show up and annihilate the field and continue building excitement toward the Breeders Cup.  But being a Curlin fan, it would be even greater to see him finish third-or-so, and boost Curlin's pretige. (-:

He has bad feet. That's his biggest strike. No feet (or hooves in this  case), no horse. I appreciate them taking that into consideration for his BC Classic prep, and it is entertaining to watch a Derby/Preakness winner take an unusual route to the Classic, but really, why make a race for him? Racetracks have done that for horses in the past, but Big Brown's in the spotlight now and his connections should've taken a route that would've made us better appreciate him. He's up against solid turf veterans but you're right, they should've run him in an established turf race or the Goodwood, which is on the Pro-Ride.

I don't think Big Brown even hits the board in this race. Nor do I think he will hit the board in the Classic. That is if he even runs in the Classic. Watch out for Drum Major. He has a chance to win at a very nice price.

I have a question - it's a little off subject, but it applies to it. Aren't there different ways hooves can be trimmed that will minimize the possibilty of developing quarter cracks? I'm thinking of the mustang cut. Is there some way in particular that hooves are trimmed specifically for racing? Seems to me that since he is such a good racehorse, you'd want to do what you could for his feet even if that cut his time down some.

Well, BB earned a race just for him and its turned into a legit race with decent competition, and if Shakis and Silver Train show up they will more than prove BB is a real race horse if he wins...

One thing I would put a bet on, though, there won't be any Curlin-BB match up in the Clark HCP if Curlin does not go to the BC...it's dirt, and if his feet are this bad why would you risk him?

To me, it's really almost an embarrassment that BIG BROWN's owners went to the media, begging racetracks to create a race for their horse. It's not like there were no available stakes races for this horse - there were plenty - but they chose to duck them all. They could have showed up for the Travers, or the Woodward, or the Woodbine Mile, or Super Derby, or Jockey Club Gold Cup, etc. But they chose to duck all the tough races and good competition to beg for a super soft spot. But it doesn't look like their wish came true because this is a fairly tough race.

Forget about the BC Classic, forget about the Monmouth Stakes, and lets focus on what is really wrong with this whole picture.  Some say Big Brown is a freak, and fine, they can say that if they wish.  However, why is this tenderfooted so-called freak headed for the breeding shed?  There has been so much uproar about unsound and fragile Thoroughbreds that it makes absolutely no sense to breed him.  I know the argument is going to be to look what he's done, he needs to pass on his speed and blah blah blah.  However, is it worth it to breed for speed and ability if you totally disregard the whole picture?  If you have unsound feet, legs, lungs, etc, etc, how are you going to breed the perfect TB?  Lets find the healthy specimins to breed...not the ones that will just continue to aggravate the problems that the industry already faces.  

Well now you hear that the race itself isn't that important and it's just a prep and doesn't matter if he wins it or not, per Iavarone.  Why didn't they just train him up to the race in that case? As for Johanna, my bet (and yes I'm a gambler but a very successful one) is that if Big Brown runs in the Classic, so does Curlin. BB is the one who may not show and yes he's ducking Curlin because BB's folks have foregone all the traditional races.

Jason, isn't it interesting how people change history to support their argument? Loved your comeback.

Karen in Indy

I think the BB hoof specialist has done everything known to mankind to take care of this colts feet. Every big name trainer says he is the best there is.

I completely agree with Mikey. Apparently, Brownie has gotten his unsound feet from his sire, so he might pass them on to his progeny. He should not go to the breeding shed

    Johanna, how many of the last nine 3 year old champion males were still in training once the Saratoga meet came around after the early part of their 3 year old campaign?  I believe it was only six since Afleet Alex, Smarty Jones & Charismatic were retired soon after the Belmont.  So that leaves six (Curlin, Bernardini, Funny Cide, War Emblem, Point Given & Tiznow) and of the six remaining only War Emblem never raced at Saratoga in their racing careers.  Curlin, Tiznow and Funny Cide did it their 4 year old season.  Funny Cide also did it in his 6 year old campaign.  I'm not counting maiden turf races, only graded stakes races so in essence Big Brown hasn't run at Saratoga against graded competition.  That kind of blows your stat out of the water.

    I have always said that even though I am a Curlin fan, I think Big Brown is an etremely talented horse.  I know his feet are a problem & I understand his connections wanting to get him to the Classic by taking the safest route, but I question that in doing so, will he be battle tested enough to take the Classic if he is indeed good enough?

    Back to Jason's point, I too think Saratoga is the place where champions run.  It is the most prestigious meet in all of the country.  It tops Del Mar and both Keeneland's spring and fall meets in terms of competition and champions and that is hard for me to say since I love Keeneland.  They could have ran Big Brown at Saratoga, but opted not to do so.  Now, I don't think they were ducking anybody, but I figure if Point Given could pull off the Haskell/Travers double why couldn't Big Brown who dray says is the best 3 year old ever?  By the way, I think Point Given would have blown the doors off of Big Brown so in my book, Big Brown is not even the best 3 year old in the last 10 years.  If I'm not mistaken, Point Given is still the only horse in North America to win 4 straight Grade I, $1,000,000 races & only one of 5 horses in the last 100 years with Man O' War, Damascus, Whirlaway & Native Dancer being others, to win both the Haskell & Travers.

    At this point, regardless of what happens this weekend in Big Brown's race, the Classic is up in the air whether Big Brown & Curlin run or not because the surface is such an unknown.  I may have to take the most scientific method in handicapping and go with saddle cloth numbers or silk colors to choose my winner.

I see Jason is being nice and allowing some of you to post really crazy opinions.  Big Brown is 5 lengths better than any of these OLDER HORSES.  I am so sick and tired of hearing about older horses I could just go nuts.  Big Browns "natural" surface IS turf.  He will show everyone tomorrow who is the best turf horse in the country.  He is simply too fast for these horses and they are not use to the pace he will force.  And for the last time let me tell all of you WHY he did not show up to the Travers or Woodward.  He has already beaten all those horses and some of them several times.  How many times do you want to see him do it?  Secondly why would he race on dirt again when he burned his feet up in the Haskell.  Why not run on nice soft grass to get ready to face the horses from around the world?  The fact of the matter is this NO HORSE on this planet can beat Big Brown come Breeders Cup Day not Curlin and not some European...NO ONE.

After he wins the Breeders Cup I want you to all come back here and tell me how smart I am.... until then sit back and enjoy the butt kicking Big Brown is about to put on some OLDER turf horses.  Big Brown by 5 or more.

Adele,

You are exactly right.  Big Brown inherited his feet from his sire, Boundary, who had the same exact problems.  That's why they will have to be careful what Mares are bred to him and even then there will probably be some really good horses with bad feet.

HERE ARE MY PICKS FOR THE MONMOUTH STAKES: 1. SHAKIS 2.PROUDINSKY 3. SILVER TREE   I DON'T THINK BB IS GOING TO HIT THE BOARD TOMORROW. I AGREE WITH EVERYONE WHO SAID THAT BB SHOULD HAVE PICKED A PREP RACE ON PRORIDE FOR THE BC INSTEAD OF TURF.  CURLIN IS GOING TO BE HOTY FOR 2008!

I have been looking forward to seeing Big Brown tomorrow but am in Houston waiting for Ike and if we loose power we will miss it.  

Yes, I am excited about the race.  I am curious to see how he'll run on the grass, regardless of the venue.  I may not love the spot they chose, but I still want to see the horse run.  

Can I disagree about something?  I think IEAH had alot to lose by NOT bringing Brown back after the Belmont.  Especially in light of the controversy surrounding the use of steroids.  To have retired the horse off of the debacle of the Belmont would forever have tarnished his image.  Bringing him back, and having him "win out" would allow people to basically just toss out the Belmont performance.

Of course, had Brown come out and run poorly, and lost... well then that would have certainly been the bigger disaster.  

I do think they are picking soft spots for him.  Perhaps it is to get him to the Classic in one piece.

It turned me off.  What's he proving? - That he can run against average allowance horses on the turf?  He should have shot for bigger and better things so Dutrow can be his usual braggart self.  I'm just about sick of him.

Dray,

  I will agree that BB will probably destoy the Monmoth field, or at least he should. Though, that doesn't mean he's the best turf horse in the country. I say let him beat Kip Devil, or Red Rocks, or some of the older turf horses that have actually won a grade 1. Until he does that, winning a grade 1 on turf against grade 1 competition, he is not the best turf horse in the country. Also, I'm not saying he can't win the BC, but it's not going to be easy, New Approch may show up, DOM, is probably going to show up, aswell as HTN, all Phenomenal horses. Also, if commentator runs, you better hope your boy doesn't get rank, or else he'll be cooked by the stretch run. The BCC is not a race that you simply show up and win, you gotta fight for it, so don't get to cocky or you'll have a bunch of people coming after you on these blogs.

Dido what other people have said about his bad feet & the breeding shed- he should not be allowed to breed. Look how Ruffian inherited weak legs from her sire Reviewer and what happened to her.

I am not too excited about him running at Monmouth. I think the weather can potentially make for a very unpredictable race. I have been a backer of BB althrough his 3 year old campaign. He has never been a bet against for me. I am concerned that the condition of the turf, local turf experts and contentious group of horses can possibly set this up for a befuddling outcome. He will be a soft favorite and will probably be a bet against. If he wins, I will morn my losses but be happy for the Horse, The replays of the Derby and the Preakness signify he is a great leader of his class.

But perhaps, IEAH and company will really have to GET SERIOUS after this one.

The King of the Derby

Big Brown in the Monmouth Stakes reminds me of the college phenom going to the pros early.  Some players are ready but many aren't.  These foes, if Shakis, Silver Train, etc. do indeed race, are a different caliber on their home "turf" so to speak.  I say he flops.

Draynay I completely agree! Can't wait to see all the BB doubters sit with there mouths wide open when Brown rocks Monmouth!

Big Brown had to run after the Belmont, he ran a race he wasn't fit enough to run in on that day.

If he had retired then people would say he only beat a weak crop of 3yr olds. Let's face it his stud appeal improves even if he wins 1 of his 2 next races (then retires to stud, wining 6 out of 8 races). Lavarone isn't keeping him in  training because he's a sportsmen. This horse won 2 out of three legs of the Triple Crown, I think it's a disgrace that he is running in a nongraded stakes custom taylored to the owners likings (no fault of the animal).

He had to step up and run older horses at some point if he wants a shot at horse of the year and an even greater stud fee. I understand his goal is the BC Classic but they could have done it with a bit more class.

Karen in Indiana--

In answer to your question, yes, a farrier can make all the difference, without question.

In BB's case, between hoof specialist Ian McKinley (an old family friend going back to the days when Rick Dutrow's  late father-trainer, Dick, in the game) and the use of those $330 a pair glue-on Yasha shoes and farrier Tom Curl's work, these two have done nothing short of miracles keeping BB's feet even nominally race-worthy. When it comes to the breeding shed, one can only hope BB passes on his Dam's (Mien's) "foot gene" and not his Sire's, as clearly BB has Boundary's feet taken to their illogical conclusion, although both McKinley and Curl have insisted in the past leading up to the Belmont BB's feet "aren't that bad". As a general prescription, some of the worst feet (other than my own pair of flat ones) I have seen are when retired t-breds arrive at the barn to start their next careers. First thing  you do after you get an x-racer-- call the farrier.

Mikey, Sarah, Monica V,

I could not agree with you more. His sire Boundary, had even worst feet than Big Brown. But some believe, "the horse will not go alone into the gene pull." (Gary Knapp, Big Brown's Breeder) Good luck!

Runfast,

I believe you are dead right.

Jason,

Sometimes is hard to have it all, isn't it?. I do believe they are trying to keep him together, no traveling, no added stress, no dirt no risk of another quarter crack, etc. I cannot wait for the Classic.

Sure, Curlin made it to Saratoga.  The year AFTER his championship year.  Street Sense was not the 3yo champion.  He may have won the Derby, but that only made his his appearance at Saratoga more unusual.

The last Derby winner to run at Saratoga in his 3yo season, before Street Sense, was Thunder Gulch in 1995.  

I don't recall anyone criticizing any of those interim horses.  Of course, quite a few of them were retired before even attempting a fall campaign.  But that didn't matter, after all, they were media darlings.

It's ironic: the owners and trainer are trying to get their horse, who financially speaking SHOULD have been retired after the Belmont, to the championship race in one piece, and all people can do it criticize them.  It's not just ironic, it's unbelievable. Would people still complain if he ran a hard race in the JCGC, hurt his feet and missed the BCC?  I'd sure bet on it!  There's just no satisfying some people.

"May the good things be with you..." Run well and safe tomorrow, I'll be watching you and hoping for the best!

GO BROWNIE, GOOOOO!!!!

Bryce Be Quick, thank you for your answer. I think Big Brown is an exceptional horse and sometimes that requires an exceptional (out of the box) solution. I'm thankful for the opportunity to see him race again and if he's happy racing on turf, can't wait to see him go for it!

No Draynay, Jason is being nice letting you post anything. Your one sided, one horse rules the world B.S. is getting sooooo old.

And Johanna, do you know the financial incentives involved in BB's retirement? If he had won the Belmont his value would have doubled from 50million to 100 million, Iavarone himself said that. A great horse runs on anything, with bad feet or any other way. Stop trying to bronze this colt and say he was the best ever.

Please...all of you go to youtube and type in Big Brown Maiden and watch how good on turf he was a YEAR ago... imagine what he is going to do now as a 3 year old....LOOK OUT.

I expect a 115 Beyer.

NO.

Well I was going to just say no. But, what does he prove if he wins and how many thousands of excuses will his 'fans' have if he loses?  And Johanna, if Saratoga is such a non-factor why did Dutrow say if the colt would have won the Belmont he would have gone to the Travers. It's the most important 3 year old race of the Summer. He figured the horse would get beat and with the sales market heading for the toilet he would have gone down in value instead of getting more money from incentives. You don't have to have races created for you if you are a great horse. Do any of you really think you can run a horse that you're 'holding together' in a race like the Classic after shipping somewhere you've never run before on a surface you've never run on, against some of the best horses in the world and succeed? Talk about unfair to the horse and greedy human connections.

what don't you understand?  Big Brown is HOY.  He is going to dominate the Breeders Cup and continue to be undefeated with 4 shoes firmly on his feet.

He will win on turf, dirt, and Pro Ride.  Curlin....? dirt only.  

Big Brown is the most talented 3 year old we have seen in 30 years.

Where did I say he was the best ever?  Care to point out a quote?  I'll save you the time: you won't find one.  I never said a thing about him being "the best ever."  I think he's a good horse worthy of far more respect than he's receiving.

Of course his value would have gone up had he won the Belmont.  After he lost, it would have been wiser to retire him to avoid risking any more losses and further plummets of value.  Iavarone himself has stated this.  I recall many people predicting that he would be retired immediately after the Belmont, win or lose... now that they've been proven wrong, they just need something else to gripe about.

Also, I never said Saratoga was a non-factor.  I said it clearly has not been "where champions run," or at least where 3yos champions run.  Where is the criticism of Silver Charm, Skip Away, Real Quiet, Tiznow, and all the other champions who weren't even sound enough to make it to their fall campaign?  Where is the criticism of Curlin, who also skipped out on the Travers last year?

What a difference a few months can make. Four months ago Rick Dutrow was the most annoying, arrogant, and cocky person in the racing industry. Humbled by that last place finish in the Belmont fiasco, the real foregone conclusion is that sometimes it's better to see things for what they are and not what you wish for them to be. Big Brown is a wonderful horse. Very impressive, and a powerhouse at that. But the poor horse was made out to be the greatest horse that ever stepped onto a racetrack, and now the connections have to get races created for him instead of facing competition in the races that mean something? I feel so sorry for this horse. If his feet are so bad, just retire him now. The BC Classic should not matter, should not even be considered if there is still a hoof issue.

Remember George Washington in last year's Classic? Tragedy waiting to happen. You take a turf horse, try him in 2006 in the BC Classic on dirt. He hates it. Then you bring him back a year later in another dirt race, the BC Classic no less AGAIN, and in that horrible slop! What was he doing there? Dollars and NO SENSE. What exactly does IEAH need to gain by sending out Big Brown again? I'm not sure the payoff is worth the risk.

This seems to have turned into a personal issue with Curlin's connections, and both of these innocent horses can be the ones to suffer from it. Let's pray that the Curlin vs. Big Brown match race never takes place. Curlin already has a place up there with greats - look at what this horse has done in not even two years. Not many horses have a resume like him. From 14 starts, he is 10-2-2. His worse finishes were 3rd in the Derby, 2nd in the Belmont, 3rd in the Haskell (tired and against a superstar field), and 2nd in the Manowar against turf champions in his first ever turf start! Big Brown also has a very impressive record, but I don't think he is a match for Curlin. I would love to see what Big Brown would accomplish at age 4, but I doubt we will get that chance. Better to be safe than sorry. When he retires he will have left us with some really nice memories. As far as Saturday's race, I will be cheering for him, and praying for a safe race. Because THAT is all that matters.

Go, Brown...I know he can do really well tomorrow.  I wish him lots of luck and a wish to bring all the horses a safe trip back to the barn. Big Brown is a magnificent animal and I think his connections are doing what they feel best for him.  Who are we to judge?  I hope the old Brown shows up and just blows them all away!

I was hoping for a triple crown this year, and thought big brown could pull it off, but anybody that has horses, like i do know that they are just like humans. some days are better than others. I hope big brown wins tomorrow and in the breeders cup, but the florida derby, kentucky derby, preakness wins say enough. No matter what he does he is a champion

There is a different standard for Big Brown than for other horses.  And it's impossible for Big Brown to meet the standard, dontcha know?

And you guys wonder why no one likes your horse? If a horse could read and understand what you were saying he would be cringing at attracting 'fans' like you guys. The moaning and groaning is coming from you Johanna the rest of us are just trying to be a little more reasonable in our critique. As far as your comment about his value, well they have to prove that he is worthy, they NEED the money. If he had won the Belmont, he would NOT have been retired, they are shooting for 100 mil+ to bankroll their partnerships. The other thing is I liked THE HORSE, until his trainer showed what a jerk he is and 'fans' like Draynay came onto these blogs and insulted anyone who doesn't agree with him. Your strident support speaks volumes, direct quotes aren't what I'm talking about it's a a read between the lines deal.

I'd like to see Big Brown go right to the lead when he wants to---like they let Secretariat do in HIS grass races....They NEED to allow Big Brown his head from the get-go this time...it will be better for the horse as a BC Prep. but I SSSOOOO wanna see him with a confident speed ride---that's his true running style.....I've said all along he has 'Bid like acelleration/many gears, yes, the best since 'Bid/"Bidlike" complete with the bad feet/Belmont legends...I, too, think he's 'Da Hoss, and I always get exited when I see Big Brown run.....

Draynay,

You never disappoint.  Always the same.

Draynay,

I hope all is well with your wife and she has recovered.

The Travers winner appeared to cross his hind legs at head of stretch, thus losing his action/momentum for one stride---he regathered himself, kicked in, kicked back at Mambo In Seattle...what I mean is this: while Big Brown has to run in a special turf race, Col John will probably go in on works alone....his breeding (Tiznow/Turkoman) screams of late development...he's on his home turf for The Breeders Cup...and he gets the distance....trainer is confident enough to suggest he'll go in on works and that says a lot to me....Castners showcased Col John at Saratoga to show how he dirts, and he didn't dissapoint...the "other" three year old, the classy Col John....my Derby box just may pay off for me in October, Big Brown and Col John, one/two and gettin' the 3y/olds respect!

Agree with the sentiments that this prep is silly and proves nothing. What if he loses against this lot? However when all is said and done and if he wins the BC this race and the Belmont will be of no consequence when determining what should or should not have happened. However if he loses badly in the BC then this race, skipping Saratoga and the Belmont will be blows that Dutrow&Co will not be able to miss.

I am not convinced of a bad feet "cover-up". Yes, he has foot problems but it appears that he can overcome them with proper care.

Throw out the Belmont. I will always pin that fiasco on KD. I don't care what road he takes to the Breeders Cup. Monmouth was smart to create this venue for BB. He brings people to the track. They had a record handle when he was in the Haskell. And I still believe we will see BB and Curlin in the Breeders Cup Classic.

Mikey, now you're making too much sense about using the best, eg: good lungs, good feet, sound retirement to breed! If you do that you lose all the "hot new sire" marketing hype and your "brilliant" stallions might just fade away and, oh no, we might be left with more "classic" bred babies that, horrors, need more time to mature, even to the old age of FOUR...! LOL.

Johanna,

Here's why we don't critisize the 4 you mentioned.;-)

Silver Charm retired at FIVE (sound), 24 races,made it through 3 fall campaigns, third on the all-time list..

Skip Away retired at FIVE (sound), he won 5 grade 1's that year, though he did not repeat his previous year's BC win. Until this year when Curlin passed him, he was #2 on the earnings list.

Real Quiet raced through the fall of his 4 yr old year, though his last win was the MassCap and was retired early in his 5 yr old year (sound)because he did not reach condition to go to Dubai.He won/placed in 17/20 starts.

Tiznow retired (sound)after winning his second BC classic (2001) in what is arguably the greatest BC classic win of all time (after appearing to be beaten by Sahkee his will to win, you can see him pin his ears when he's passed, and dig in to surge past Sahkee to win...Tiznow epitomized courage in the face of apparent defeat, and became an inspiration after 9/11 to not just the horse racing world, but he was actually the inspiration for the New England Patriots in their quest for the Super Bowl after their improbable season with rookie 3rd string quarterback Tom Brady...that's why Tiznow's official hat says:"To the Patriot in all of us". He retired SOUND with, I think, the 8th or ninth highest earnings in history.

The amazing thing about Tiznow is he suffered spinal damage that actually crippled him at the beginning of his 4 year-old season...the owners had nothing to prove by racing him...he'd been HOY and BC winner the year before...but they brought him back for an incredible display of sportsmanship with a horse with the eye of the tiger and the heart of a champion..Tiznow is my absolute favorite racehorse.

    Johanna, are you talking to me with the "best 3 year old ever" quote.  Because if you are, I never said that you said that.  I said dray said he was the best 3 year old ever.  Actually I stand corrected, in an earlier blog he said he was the best 3 year old in the last century not the best ever.

    Now as far as Saratoga not being the place where 3 year old champions run, do you mean Derby winners or Eclipse winners?  If you mean Eclipse winners I have already stated in a previous post why that is a terrible stat.  If you mean Derby winners then how many of the past 10 Derby winners were even the best horse in their class?  Well let's start with Street Sense.  Curlin seems to be better.  2006: Barbaro didn't have a chance to run at Saratoga and Bernardini won the Eclipse for best 3 year old.  2005: Giacomo was one of the biggest flukes ever and Afleet Alex was better and proved it in the Preakness and Belmont.  2004:  Smarty Jones was the best horse in his class, but was retired before Saratoga.  2003:  Funny Cide was 1-2 against Empire Maker who was a better horse and Empire Maker ran at Saratoga.  2002:  War Emblem was probably the best horse in his class (might have been Medaglia D'Oro).  He subsequently flopped in the Belmont, ran well in the Haskell and then flopped in next 2 starts including an 8th place finish in the BC Classic.  Hmmm, could history repeat itself 6 years later?  2001:  Monarchos was not the best horse, Point Given easily was and he ran at Saratoga.  2000:  Fusiachi Pegasus won the Derby, was beaten in the Preakness and eventually flopped in the Belmont.  I can keep going if you'd like, but I think you get the point.

    Here's a stat for you, who was the last 3 year old to win both the Derby and the Classic in the same year?  Probably everyone knows Unbridled in 1990.  However, since Unbridled pulled off the Derby/Classic double, 5 other 3 year olds have won the BC Classic and not won the Derby (Curlin, Tiznow, Cat Thief, Concern & AP Indy).  My point is that while winning the Kentucky Derby is an accomplishment that every horseman wants to have, it doesn't mean your horse is the best horse in the country or necessarily even the best horse in their class so the whole point of Saratoga as of recent not being the place where 3 year old champions run is completely bogus.

    dray, I love your enthusiasm, but question some of your posts.  I can't fault or question Big Brown's connections for trying to find the easiest path to hold him together to get to the BC Classic, but in doing so I think they are leaving him a little short as far as being battle tested.  He has only had one stiff test, other than his Belmont, and he did pass (against mediocre competition), but is that going to be enough?  As far as you being tired of people saying beat older competition, if he is so great then it won't be a problem, right?  Granted, the older horse division is not what it used to be, but it's still way better than this group of 3 year olds.  I still don't think Big Brown will even be the highest finishing 3 year old in the Classic this year, let alone win it, but I've been wrong before.  Win or lose this weekend and I don't really care which it is, I want to see Big Brown come away from the race in good shape.  I want to see Jess Jackson decide to run Curlin in the Classic as well, so that way we get our long awaited matchup.  I hope you like Crow.

For some reason Dray you make me resent Big Brown even more.

I don't think Big Brown deserved to have a race made just for him. He should've run in an established race against older horses, like Curlin did when he ran in the JCGC last year and defeated the older Lawyer Ron.

Even if he knocks the socks off of the other horses at Monmouth, he won't have an easy time in the Breeders' Cup Classic. In fact, until the Goodwood and a few other preps on SA's new surface are run, no horse will have an easy time. Big Brown has much a chance as any other horse to win the Classic, and that includes the Europeans like Henry and the Duke, tough handicap horses in Go Between and Well Armed, a horse at home with Santa Anita named Colonel John, a rapidly improving 3yo named Mambo in Seattle, and a good number of others.

Sorry Dray, but this isn't just the 3yos Big Brown will be facing, but older horses. No one can guarantee Big Brown's superiority until he's passed the test.

All of those that are saying BB should not breed because of bad feet, let me say this, it is nearly impossible to bear a thoroughbred without some problem with him. It's always something, I am not a breeder, but I know that it's difficult just to get a young horse to the track without some kind of a problem arising. Nearly every stud has some kind of physical problem, but that doesn't mean he will pass it on to his children.

agree with you Jason, today's race is a glorified allowance race.  some nice horses that Big Brown better beat.  compare this to the field Curlin faced for his run on the turf earlier this year.  night and day.  and the Haskel field he beat earlier was absolutely awful.  Big Brown's connections are doing everything possible to avoid him running against quality horses until the BC Classic and are hoping he runs the race of his life on that day.  

Johanna, SS went to saratoga and he was the two year old champion, you can look it up if you want. So he was a champion before heading to saratoga. Also the reason there is no critism over curlin running in the Haskel and not the Travers is because the field he ran against was every bit as tough or more than the Travers field itself.

Dray,

   Pleas quit trying to shove your oppinion down everyones throat, it does get quite annoying. Also tell me this if Curlin does run in the Classic, which he may, then wins what are you going to say to that? Curlin will have won 6 grade 1s this year, assuming that he wins the JCGC, grade 1 placed on grass, won two BCC in a row, and be one of the only horses to win the Dubia World Cup, then come back and win the BCC. BB will have won 4 grade 1s, including 2 parts of the TC, the Haskel, the FA Derby, and a non graded stakes on turf, assuming he wins today. So if Curlin win, which would also make him a two dimensional one trick pony, since he'd win on pro ride, how can you say he deserves HOY more, you can't, cause if Curlin wins it's a forgone conclusion babe.

Back to the subject. I'm not all revved up about the race, but i am going to watch it just out of curiosity. I do hope he wins, and he honestly should, but as we have learned before anything can happen in a horse race.

Dray,once again you are showing your lack of knowledge with regard to thoroughbred racing. It is not enough to say BB is the best 3 year old in 30 years.He has to prove it and so far he definatly has not.

Thank you, da3hoss, for responding to Johanna's comment about the other 3yo's champs who didn't make it to Saratoga.  WELL SAID!  These were durable, SOUND, horses!  

Of course, it's interesting that Tiznow is the only one of the four to have done a thing at stud! (Too bad for my all-time fav Silver Charm!)

I wish BB all the luck in the world today and for the rest of the year...he'll need it!

LDP... I will make you a deal if Big Brown loses to Curlin EVER I will never talk about him again. When Big Brown crushes him like the one trick pony that he is I want you to admit Big Brown is Curlins DADDY ! For the record Curlin has a 0% chance of beating Big Brown ...NONE NADA.

COLONEL... Colonel John, Mambo in Seattle ?  Lol.. you have to be kidding me. Older horses ? Watch and learn today.

MonicaV... Thank you...yes she is doing much better her therapy has gone very well and walks without a limp.

Draynay,

Maybe BB is the best 3 year old YOU'VE seen in 30 years. I've seen a few a lot better than him. Silver Charm, the best horse Stevens ever rode, per Gary. A heck of a lot closer to a TC than BB and a lot tougher competition. They didn't manufacture races for him and they didn't have to 'hold him together'. His owners were class over class. The best that had to be 'held together' Cigar.

Well, for what it is worth, here is my take.

The horse struggled in his last race - granted he was just coming off a layup but he did struggle and he was almost beaten.

So, to me, it seems they have taken the high road with him - get him back in the game, on a softer surface (I am sorry, I have seen what quarter cracks do to pleasure horses and this horse has GOT to be suffering) with older horses who he SHOULD easily beat.

What I wonder is what happens if he IS beaten?

I'm happy he's racing. Not happy at the way his connections have bullied their conditions to create this race. If this the direction that the owners of all future champions will take, it does not bode well for a sport that prides itself on tradition.

Dray,

  You get rather defensive don't ya, lol. I will make no such deal, because it's silly. Also, if curlin does beat brown i wouldn't forbid you to ever talk about him, that's just plain rude and mean. All i want is for you to stop shoving your oppinion down mine, and everyone elses throat. You have one oppinion and i have another thats all there is, and thank the good lord i live in america where we can express our oppinions. Also if you were getting defensive about a couple of the things i said, don't be i was actually just joking aroud, i had no malicious intent, or trying to get you upset, just joking. Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but in racing there is never a 0 or 100% chance of anything. Lastly, if you don't mind me asking, what happened to your wife. I was injured this year to and still in PT, though almost finished, and i'll probably be back again soon with a brand new injury. Well that it, and before i leave how about we just call a truce, K?

Look how much enjoyment the fans will have at mommoth today . Big Brown is a wonderful horse and a pleasure to watch in action. Go big brown and i wish i could have made it to mommoth but ill be shouting for you at the telly. Good Luck

O, i forgot, but I know that some people think BB is nothing or not the same w/o the steriod. I also know that Dutrow said something about them being a drug that keeps up appitite and helps the horses train better. Also, many of you think BB is having trouble because his feet hurt him so much. My oppinion is that the steroids helped his feet, or may i say acted like asprin or motrin, to help dull the pain in his feet. Now that they have taken him off the steriods, he's running and feeling the pain that the steroids dulled, and maybe that's why he raced a dull haskel, maybe that along with his shoe contributed to his loss in the belmont. If you think about it makes sence. I have a bad shoulder that i work and ride with. To help dull the pain i get i take motrin, which does help because it relaxes and loosens muscles. Now I can still feel some pain when im doing heavy lifting or riding a stubborn pulling horse, but it's not that bad. Take me off the motrin and i garuntee you i will not work or ride as well as i can if i am actually not feeling most of the pain. I'll bet this goes the same for anyone else.

Draynay: The best 3 year-old campaign I ever saw, breaking track records of time and distance (BB:None) was SECRETARIAT...!But, that's not fair since it's outside your parameter of 30 years...so, thinking it over, here's better than BB (who has no track records, etc.):

Thunder Gulch, 7 of 10 races (all GS)including Kentucky Derby, Belmont, (short 3rd in preakness)  & Kentucky Cup over older horses.

Sunday Silence: One of 2 horses to win Derby and BC in a season, we all know what else he did in going 7 for 9 that year.

SPECTACULAR BID: 5 GS before the Derby, won them all, won Kentucky Derby, Preakness, 3rd in that ill-fated Belmont (in which HE finishes)then 2 track records in races after, and only loses once more, to Triple crown winner Affirmed. 10 out of 12 as a 3 yr-old. (in his 4 year old year he won all 9 starts, and set 4 track records)

LDP, It's a little off topic, But I agree a lot with you. Winstrol-Stanozolol are the same family, Stanozolol is the Barry Bonds/Roger Clemens steroid of choice, Winstrol is a Brand Name of the generic Stanozolol. There are oral and injectable versions. One interesting side-note: I have seen blogs, etc that intimated that perhaps many colts were rushed to the breeding shed because one of the many side effects of Stanozolol is reduced testicular function and size, LOL.

Another side note: Curlin, BB, and even Kip Deville have owners who had them taken off all steroids and to me, a nobody, none of those three is running at quite the same level.

I hate the blogs. They become nothing but a huge argument about nothing. It's pointless to tell someone they are dumb for thinking Big Brown is the best 3 year old in 30 years. It's their opinion. And if you disagree its YOUR opinion. Personally I love Big Brown because for some reason he captured my heart. And on a good day he could beat Curlin..but that's what I think. There's no use in telling me different because it will not change what I think. This just shows how far horse racing has fallen. People are never satisfied,if Big Brown won the classic people would just say he got lucky or something. If another horse won they would say the same. Be happy with all that horse racing is..right now! Be happy with all the wonderful horses we have..RIGHT NOW! Enjoy them,but don't criticize them or take them for granted. Remember all the spine tingling races Curlin,Big Brown,Go Between Etc have given us. Be happy with it,I know I am. To me it does not matter what race Big Brown runs in today,as long as he runs and comes out all good and healthy I'll be cheering him on. Why not enjoy him while you can?

Draynay,

That is wonderful news about your wife!  I'm so happy for you both.

God blessed you with that recovery.

LDP, this has kind of been beaten with a stick but I've swallowed my pride and spoken with my Ortho dad and he said that Motrin (Ibuprofen) is in a group of drugs called nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). Ibuprofen works by reducing hormones that cause inflammation, which is pretty widely known. He also said that Winstrol is an anabolic-androgenic steroid. It promotes(cell growth), increases appetite, increases bone remodeling and growth, and stimulation of bone marrow, which increases the production of red blood cells. This is info from an orthopedic surgeon(kind of the same thing I read as well but he knows from memory). I've heard it acts as an anti-inflammatory but not in the same way Motrin does. The regrowth of bone is interesting, maybe that helped his feet. I also think the red blood cell increase is interesting since that is considered blood doping in the Olympics and Tour De France since it increases stamina and oxygen intake.

ok, well that's what blog COMMENTS are all about, discussion. Some people get too personal and call others names and that's what some of us don't like. We aren't bloggers, we are commentors and that is what a comment is-an opinion. I agree that some get carried away and then others get angry. But you know, you are trying to tell us who we should like, that's your opinion not necessarily everyone else's.

I just saw they're calling this the Big Brown Monmouth Stakes, that kind of thing is what is irking people. Like Jason said, there were other Turf races, why did they require a special race written for this horse?

Lets hope they don't scratch BB, BIG and I are just leaving to go to Fairplex to watch the race and bet. They've been examining the track, say it's okay so far

Curlin probably has HOTY locked up already, and if not a win in the JCGC will ensure it. BB's connections have ducked any real competition since his Belmont implosion, and thus shouldn't even be considered. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get beat today by a G-2 level entry...say Shakis or Silver Tree.

Bighorsefan,

   interesting. I'm not trying to say the two are the same, just saying that they do the same thing, but do it in a different way. Basicly meaning that maybe the steroids, like motrin, eleviated some of the tenderness brown had. If this is true, then it would explain why he doesn't show the same burst of energy he did when he was on the winstrol. I used to have a pony, she was older, but never really acted it, she was alway real peppy and ready to go, it was real cute, and sort of funny. Though sometimes she'd get sore or stiff, during a show, so every now and then just to relieve some of the soreness we'd give her some bute, normally if we had a real hard day. She'd go around the ring great, then the next day go in the paddock happy as can be. Now just to let everyone know, we didn't give it to her all the time and drug her up for each show, just when she wasn't feeling so hot, which was not often, since she was such a sound energetic pony.

Also curlin ran in Dubia w/o drugs and he whipped them, so i'm not so sure about your comment about him not being the same because he's not on steroids. I personly, believe he hadn't race in a while, was a bit out of shape, in a race with a hot pace, and he had to make up 8 lengths, which tired him out. Basicly he needed a race after being out for 7 weeks. The same may go for Kip Devil, since he was out for god knows how long. We all know what happened last year when Curlin had a layoff after a grueling TC series. Maybe that's what happend this year he runs a monster race in Dubia, comes back to the US runs a good race in the Stephen Foster, then runs a monster second in his first race on turf. Then seven weeks later the ask him to go 11/8 at Saratoga, the graveyard of champions, where he gets bumped and pushed wide. Then he's asked to make up eight lengths on a speed horse who was running a monster of a race. This is sort of like last years haskel, where he layed off a big pace and had to catch, a fresh and on a roll AGS, after the TC and coming off a layoff. Only this time PTP was no AGS.

da3hoss:

Secretariat had a great 3 yr old campaign through the Triple Crown, but was just so-so the rest of the year. Got beat at equal weights by ONION in thE Whitney, and got destroyed by almost 5 lengths by PROVE OUT, who carried SEVEN more pounds than Secretariat, in the Woodward. By the way, both Onion and Prove out were trained by who else, the great H Allen Jerkens.

I'd say Buckpasser, Native Dancer, Citation, Spectacular Bid, among perhaps others , had better records and thus better 3 yr old campaigns in total. Sec lost THREE races (he lost the Wood as well as the two mentioned above)as a 3 yr old. None of the others lost more than one.

I will say, however, for a period of 5 weeks, from the 1973 Derby to the Belmont Stakes, he was the best ever. But for only for 5 weeks.

Horses don't need to be drugged to have an increase in circulatiing red blood cells.  They already have up to 1/3 of their red blood cells stored in the spleen, which is referred to as "splenic reserves".  When the horse exerts itself, the red blood cells are released into the bloodstream to help with the delivery of oxygen.  If a horse is drugged to increase the amount of red blood cells even more, the blood can become so viscous that it doesn't flow properly and can lead to heart failure.  Don't even think about blood doping a horse - they already have a natural mechanism to help with that!  

Secretariat's Triple Crown were the best three races put together--bar none..period! 'Capped it off with a monster Marlboro v all the best---then two romps on grass...no horse, even "Bid", had a greater three year old campaign! Secretariat was so good you just took the losses like they were flukes...

On my take along internet, whatever.

Mikey, I'm just telling you what a physician said the effects to anabolic steroids are. How they affect the equines well that's in debate. But it can't be totally and completely different from humans, I just thought it was interesting. And hmmm, I do believe I've heard of a few horses having heart attacks at an early age, who's to say some horses don't have the same problem as humans and issues with the RBC's. As for me I'm not an equine veterinary specialist. I do have a friend who is and worked on one of the biggest horse farms in KY, but I already ask him so many questions I think he gets annoyed, I don't profess to be an expert. If steroids are so innocuous why is everyone banning them?

Mikey, I read your comment and looked it up you may not be totally correct according to a specialist in the field who said:"Mean Corpuscular Volume: MCV is the size of the red blood cell and is important in two fields. One relates to anaemia cause diagnosis. If the figure is high the horse has anaemia, the cause is usually blood loss (ulcers, bleeder), Vitamin B6, B12, Folic Acid or niacin deficiencies or gut upsets causing reduced production of these vitamins. If the figure is low with anaemia, this usually indicates iron deficiency but also copper or pyridoxine.

The other relates to the efficiency of the bone marrow. A fresh horse has a high MCV and is making good quality, new (large) red blood cells. A horse that is stale is not making new cells and his MCV is lowish." So that kind of supports the thing on the affect of steroids on bone marrow therefore red blood cells.

Saratoga AJ, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your evaluation of Secretariat's year after the Belmont.

In the Marlboro Cup, he set a new WORLD record for a mile and an eighth, while beating the likes of Riva Ridge, Cougar II, and Key to the Mint.  And Onion, to whom he was conceding eight pounds.  That was in between his races in the Whitney and the Woodward.

He set a new course record in winning the Man 'o War on turf in October, getting the mile and a half in 2:25 2/5.

And of course you're aware that after his loss to Onion in the Whitney, they discovered he had a virus.  And also you're aware that he wasn't being pointed for the Woodward, they entered him at the last minute when the track came up sloppy and they had to scratch Riva Ridge, who hated mud.  So he hadn't been trained for that race, and still ran second, only two weeks after his record-setting performance in the Marlboro Cup and after having been laid off for much of August recovering from his virus.

Secretariat is still the standard for three year olds, for me.

What is their to be excited about? Big Brown running in a race that had to be designed for him.  What was wrong with the Arlington Million, or the Secretariat,  the ManO'War, etc....  He needs a race made up for him,  this what constitutes a champion in the year 2008.  

Casino Drive WILL win the BC Classic!,just wait and see how he destroys "older horses" at Santa Anita in his prep..It speaks volumes when his Japanese connections are unafraid and willing to ship their Horse "WAY over here" just to showcase his talent,against Anybody,Anywhere on Any surface!...you heard it here 1st..Casino Drive is a MONSTER!!

Unfortunately, the bad feet are genetic and BB will further weaken the U.S. gene pool because $$ speaks in the TB industry.

Hard racing will cause some problems, yes...but you can't improve what they're born with.

I'm excited simply because I'm curious to see where he is in his development. Will it be a Derby-like performance, a Belmont performance or a Haskell performance that will leave us guessing?

This is a better group than he ran against in the Haskell, so that is interesting to me.

I do wish they would have picked a graded stakes. If his feet go, do you want them to go after an allowance race or after a stakes race?

I loved seeing Big Brown run and to win was great.  He's a real beauty to watch.

Well, he (BB) won and showed some grit, I survived by turning the volume down when they interviewed his connections and it really helped me remember my love for him waaaaay back...it really did. My only thought, though, had the race been any longer they had him...

Saratoga AJ:

Secretariat, at 3, won the Bay Shore stakes, Gotham stakes (equaled track record),the TC with 2 records still standing today, and ran each quarter in the Derby faster than the quarter before & if they assigned Beyers back in those days Andrew Beyer says he would have given him a 139 for his Belmont, no other horse has ever even broken 2:25 for 1 1/2 miles, he won the Arlington Invitational, He won Marlboro Cup against older horses like Derby/Belmont Stakes winner Riva Ridge, 1972 Three-Year-Old Male, Key to the Mint, champion Cougar II, Canadian champion Kennedy Road, Onion, Travers winner Annihilate 'Em. Secretariat ran a then world record time of 1:45 2/5 for 1 1/8 miles. Then he ran on grass for the first time in the Man o' War and won by five lengths and set track record time of 2:24 4/5.(that is still the record). Secretariat's last race was the Canadian International against older horses on the grass and first time to run 1 5/8 miles. He won being eased up by a lot of lengths, I forget.

So, facing Derby, Belmont winners, champions from all over North America, older horses, he set how many records and how many of them still stand? He raced 12 times in his 3 year old year, 9 wins, 2 place, 1 show, never ducked anyone & finished every race, even when it was obvious he was beaten.

Secretariat is not even my favorite race horse, but his 3-year-old season stands up to the sniff test, and that, combined with his 2 year-old year, makes him SECRETARIAT.

slew.em.all, I can't wait to see how he's matured. It should be a fun Classic.

BB showed is heart and guts today winning his grass stakes, but only beat Proudinsky by a neck. He did not beat Rocks or Better Talk Now or any other GR1 winner in this race but he impressed me with his physical appearence and demeanor and did what he had to do to win the race. I don't believe he would have beaten Curlin if he was in this race because after all Curlin's a one trick pony, right? A 1:47 and change is good but Curlin would have buried him in the stretch run.

WOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO way to go big brown.  This is what racing is all about!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you see all the people.  It was like watching the derby ect the people were out in force. Looking forward to the Breeders Cup.  Ill be there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just saw the Monmouth race and it was all BB could to hold off the second place finisher by a neck.  I have to give BB a great deal of respect for gutting it out and winning but it was difficult for him.

Draynay,

I think you are a tad bit optimistic if you think there is no horse on the planet that can beat BB.  After seeing this race I wouldn't place a win bet on him in the classic.  If this race had been  1 1/4 miles, he would have lost.  He raced against some nice horses today but not the kind of horses he will face at SA. There are some really good horses going into the classic and if his feet are paining him, it will be a real trial for him.  Again, he did win today and that's important but it was not the same win you keep referring to that he won by 11 lengths.  I just hope he is okay and I would hate to think he was in pain while running.

Saratoga AJ,

What about Secretariat's last race at Woodbine?  He destroyed the field.

Jason,

Please comment and give us your thoughts on the race.

Thanks

I am so angry with the Big Brown connections for not letting him race as a 4 year old!  Sure he's won some great races, the horses that I distinctly remember the most and love the most are the ones that raced past their 3 year old year.  Horses these days can't/don't go the distance anymore.  Big Brown in my mind hasn't proven himself until he has raced successfully as a 4 year old.

Cleone,

You see, I have this reference book with the "past performances" of every great thoroughbred in the 20th Century published by the Daily Racing Form. Believe me when I tell you, Onion and Secretariat both carried 119 pounds in the Aug.4,1973 Whitney at Saratoga. And Prove Out(126) carried 7 pounds more when he beat Sec(119) in the Woodward at Belmont Park the following month. Secretariat carried equal weights at 126 with Angle Light and Sham when they finished a nose apart, 4 lengths ahead of him when he finished third in the 1973 Wood at Aqueduct. He finished the year 9 for 12.

So I still maintain, horses like Man'O'War 11 for 11, Citation 19 for 20, Native Dancer 9 for 10, and Buchpasser 14 for 15, had  better 3 yr old campaigns from start to finish. And yes, there were some world records (Man'o'War 2; Buckpasser 1, in those wins.

What made Secretariat so famous was the fact that he was the first Triple Crown winner in 25 years, and the way he won and the great times of three races. It was the best three races in a row that I have ever seen.

Why are  people saying he labored to a win? He didn't. Kent didn't hit him on the behind once! He had his ears up and was holding off the other horses all in his own. He won by a neck,but it was confident  neck,and if they had gone around once more they would not have gotten by him. It was a nice prep for the BC classic. Once he wins that people should shut up about Big Brown. He beat some legit horses today,he beat more than CJ did int he Travers and he won by a bigger margin. But I heard no one criticizing CJ?  Oh well,wait till the BC. Brown will show you who's boss.

da3hoss,

The fact still remains he lost 3 races, two by about 4 lengths, with no excuse. I am not arguing he ran some great races in his 9 wins, especially the Tri Crown. But I can't say his was the best 3 yr old campaign ever. See my earlier blog.  

As Trevor would've said, "They could go around again and they wouldn't catch Big Brown today!" Curlin is lucky he wasn't in it this afternoon, as he'd been struggling along like the rest of 'em did. Kent didn't even turn his stick over, if you noticed. This horse can run.

Brownsbound, in the photo posted on bloodhorse.com, Brownie's ears are not pricked, so at least near the finish he had his mind clearly to the task.

...which leads me to ask for some help here. In that photo, both front feet are very yellowish. I didn't think he had any socks, so his feet should be black. Is he running with patches on both front feet?

OK, after watching the race replay a couple of times, two things I was concerned about. He's still throwing his head when Kent D tries to restrain him (that horse blowng the turn really helped), and that was one funky lead change at the top of the stretch. He's still like a big kid.

It was great to see Big Brown run today and I was happy that he won.  However it was much closer than it should have been considering the competition (I wish Red Rocks had run).  The competition at the Breeders Cup will be much tougher, especially if Curlin runs after all!  He is definitely a good horse though and I would love to have seen what he could do next year!  As far as the manufactured race just for him - I thought that was ridiculous!  There

are established races they could have run in even though the "timing" wasn't just what they wanted.  The other horses prepping have to work with the existing stakes schedule so why not him...?

Jason, I think you've hit the nail on the head. He held off Proudinsky, he didn't soundly defeat him. Brownsbound when BB beat those same horses he was a worldbeater and we heard how it was sour grapes to say it was a weak group of 3 year olds he beat.

I'm just now logging on to this blog and seeing all these new posts since this morning, I'm not going to read them (yet), but just give my thoughts on Big Brown's race.

His performance was absolutely beautiful! It was a nearly picture perfect ride, and a masterful one by Kent, who never went to the whip. This was a great demonstration of Big Brown's remarkable form. He wired a field of very good horses, older horses, and he did it with style and class. Nobody was getting by Big Brown today, but nobody.

I love you, Brownie. You're a horse with a ton of talent and a lot of heart. I commend you and your rider for overcoming a lot of adversity, and continuing on your winning ways.

I'm happy as a clam.

Very professional win today by BB. Not eyecatching but he did a nice job of beating second tier grass horses. At least they were older and not Non/2's. Now hopefully we'll see Curlin's connections change their minds and run in the BC. Someone pointed out that it looked like he had patches on his feet. Any comments about that from someone who was there?

LDP... a truce is fine... my wife fell asleep at the wheel at 65 mph coming home.  She hit several trees and rolled the car several times and had to be life flighted to the hospital.  Its been almost 4 months and she has nearly made a complete recovery.  She cannot run yet but she can wear HIGH HEELS...lol...

Again MonicaV thank you for those kind words.

I agree with much of what has been said about his performance today- nice, but not what one would expect of an animal who performed in the manner he did earlier this year.

I just went back and watched every  prior race of his, belmont included- there was a hitch in his stride today that was NOT present earlier in his career.  

Draynay,

we bicker back and forth and we have different opinions but I'm glad you post and have that marvelous faith in Big Brown.  I know what that's like.  God bless BB, he was courageous today and proved his heart is huge.  Again, how wonderful your wife is doing so well.  I'm happy for you both.

I'm soooooooo glad that Brown won - I knew he could do it!  But, it seems, there are still a lot of naysayers out there.  It's like I've said before, to some people this horse can never do right.  "He hasn't run against older horses.  Until he does, he's just running in a weak crop of three year olds."  So now he does, and I guess the older horses just aren't good enough - oy.  Well, Brown, you still have a lot of fans, and you've made a memorable racing season for this one.  Ride on, dude, and just smoke 'em at the BC!!!

Oh, by the way, I think he even might have looked Proudinski in the eye.  Wasn't that an earlier criticism of something he hadn't done?  Sheesh....

Hello Jason..I just want to take this opportunity and weigh in on my thoughts to all of these bloggers whom have critized Big Brown and all of his connectons since The Belmont Stakes for whatever  reason(s)..and there are certainly an myriad of them...In reality there were three winners of this newly named stakes race today..written exclusively for Big Brown...Firstly...Big Brown triumphed...certainly not convincingly..however nontheless..he did indeed win and displayed incredible stamina and tenancity running  against older horses for the first time in his career...Secondly...the fans at the venerable and beautiful Monmouth Park..all over 17,000 of us today were treated to an scintillating race(s) and saw for the first since l985..an Derby winner run in New Jersey..since Spend A Buck..Myself being of one the fans were treated to racing at its zenith...True if Big Brown did not appear today..then perhaps an mere 5,000-6,000 fans would have been at the races..since its very late in the meeting..as its been extended to the end of September..Monmouth Park and New Jersey fans were winners...and we all went home w/Big Brown shirts and an memorable day of racing..And thirdly..racing itself won..Thats so paramount here..The sport was an undeniable winner...The sport so desperately needs stars..Big Brown is just one race away from retirement..We will not see him again run after the Breeders' Cup.....Curlin..its an moot point as his connections continue to vaccilate from day to day regarding whether or not they are going to keep him in training or send him off to the breeding shed....have to stay tuned here w/this one.....So whatever you people think of Big Brown et al..the good..the bad and the ugly..Racing came out an winner..the fans of the Garden State and the entire New York Metro market  fortunate enough to see him run and win were treated with an victory..and an plethora of fond memories...So lets kindly move on to another subject such as how do we generate new and youngers fans to attend the races...and keep this great sport viable...long after the Big Browns and Curlins are warmly nestled in  their post racing careers....This is the bottom line people..Thank you always for the window..Steve Stone..East Hanover..New Jersey

I was at the race today in fact my horse Nightscape was in it. We went into the race with the hope that the rain would force it off the turf and all the grass only horses would come out leaving a four or five horse field. We shipped from Penn National and had to leave at 8:00 am to get to Monmouth by 11:00 am. By the time they decided to keep it on the grass and informed us there was only two scratches we were already there so we decided what the heck let's run. To put a little different perspective on the race I bought Nightscape last year for $2000 cash and $500 on the cuff after he was beaten "double digits"   at Penn for M5000. Big Brown only beat him by 11 1/4 today and we were 22 1/2 back of him after a half. I know we did not belong in the race but we sure had a lot of fun and we are real happy with how he ran. I am sure they did not have Big Brown cranked up for his best effort but he showed a lot of heart today against some pretty good grass horses.

Steve Stone... great post you are 100% correct.  The fans made out today and Big Brown showed true talent BEATING older horses including Graded Stakes winners.  For him to step up first time on turf as a 3 year old and beat tough competition is huge.  There were plenty of children at the races that for years will tell the story of how they saw Big Brown win.  That in itself really is big for the sport.  And regarding Curlin you are right on the money. Who cares if he shows or not the best from around the world are going to show and Big Brown is going to take them all on and when he wins he will be HOY and do something no other horse has done. Beat Graded Stakes winners on 3 different surfaces Dirt, Turf, and Pro Ride.  (Big Brown 2008 HOY.)

Thought that was a perfect prep for Big Brown! I wanted to see him on the engine from the get-go---he needed that to get all he could from the prep....he'll take some beating Oct 25th.....I like Col John, but he really isn't in Brownie's league....Go Between and Well Armed are both quality elders, but again, not in Brownie's league...I'd love to see Zenyatta try them but Big Brown is such an obsticle...as for Curlin, they might take a chance on Brownie losing The Classic, but if Zenyatta runs in Classic then they really have to go....I'm leaning on a Big Brown/Colonel John exacta--ice cold, thank you very much! That's Curlin or not! Think we're gonna have to go out and see them this year! There's Big Brown, those fabulous mares...and some very decent 2y/old fillies on both coasts....Horses I'll wanna see on Oct 25: Brownie, Col John, Curlin, "The Duke", Zenyatta/Ginger/Hysterical oh my!...and that grey freak of a 2y/old filly who won Del Mar Deb...but, oh yeah, it's a very good year, and Big Brown is simply a very good horse! This is a trying time for Racing! California arbitrarily went all poly--thus "risking" the integrity of The Breeders Cup---perhaps it would've been better to try to maintain safer dirt tracks, maybe it was a matter of cost, but there's no denying the breed itself is more heavily muscled, and So Cal dirt tracks were suffering breakdowns...you can see the horses trying on the poly tracks, they seem healthier...fields are bigger...Santa Anita played fair! Col John, Zenyatta, Go Between have kicked butt everywhere, so "the best hoss won" at SA this year...expect that trend to continue this Oct with Big Brown in Classic...

Saratoga AJ - I do believe you when you tell me Secretariat and Onion carried the same weight in the Whitney.  If you go back and re-read my original post, you will see that I made reference to the Marlboro Cup, a race in which Secretariat (at 124) gave Onion (at 116) eight pounds and beat him by twelve lengths.  

I have reference books, too.  

As far as Big Brown goes - I keep wanting him to convince me, and he keeps falling short.  He was brilliant in the Derby and Preakness, but hasn't dazzled since.  I was impressed at his heart today, when he came back fighting as Proudinsky drew alongside.  But it looked like he was working pretty hard to win a race the Big Brown of the Derby or Preakness would have romped in.

As far as Big Brown v Curlin in The Classic: IT SHOULD HAPPEN!! Curlin loses NO VALUE if he loses--he's by far the best son of Smart Strike, he's proven his class/stamina---his value is SET.....Big Brown NEEDS The Classic for value being much more obscurly bred/he's in need of a proving ground race--if Curlin faces Big Brown in The Classic...throw in Col John,Go Between, Well Armed, Commentator,The Euros, The Japanese 3y/old and maybe Zenyatta and we're talking about the strongest field of my 37 years in Racing....I like a Big Brown/Col John exacta but if the filly goes look out!!

Kirk,

Thanks for sharing with us about your horse Nightscape. I agree, these were good horses that Big Brown beat. Maybe not the very best, but they're solid, experienced older grass horses.  

Even though Brownie went right to the lead and kept it, it looked to me like he was never working that hard, certainly not blowing. Kent got him to relax a bit, and I never saw him use the whip. By the time Proudinsky tried to pass him, Big Brown had a lock on it.

The turf was "good", Brownie's fractions were brisk, his final clocking was 1:47.41, and the race was a good prep for the BC, where he'll meet the top of the line runners. I know he'll be up to the challenge.

I noticed different record times for the Monmouth 9 fl. turf course. Equibase posted 1:49.60 (Greenery).  The race yesterday was out of the chute and I think the Equibase figure is correct.  Note:  BB ran a 1:47.41.  Could he have gone faster if KD had gotten into him as he did in the Haskell?  Jason: would appreciate your comments.  Thank you.

BB again proved that he is a special horse. It wasn't overly impressive but he beat a field of salty turf professionals. It will, however, be a different story in the BCC where he will face a field of Grade I winners. Outside of physical condition there is no reason for Curlin not to show up.If Jess Jackson really wants to help the sport Curlin needs to be there.

It doesn't matter what this horse does, he's never going to get the respect he deserves. I thought yesterday's race was very impressive. He set good fractions and showed heart and determination in the stretch.

I,too,was at Monmouth to see BB race. It was MORE than worth the 8 hour round trip drive, gas prices, traffic, etc. Big Brown did NOT disappoint!!!

The only disappointment is that he won't be running after the BCC. I think he could have a stunning racing career if they'd only let him!! PLEASE, Mr.Iavarone, change your mind!! I'd always been a mediocre fan of racing-I watched the Triple Crown races and that was it. I never got so charged about racing or the horses until Big Brown,so I just think it's a shame that he won't go on to become even more legendary.

Steve Stone, you're so right, that racing needs the likes of Big Brown to give it a shot in the arm,to get more people like me jazzed about it. After seeing Brown run "in person", I'm totally addicted to racing! And it was this charismatic horse that hooked me.

"Impressive" or not (*I* happen to think it was pretty impressive!), Big Brown won. That's all that counts.

BIG BROWN RULES!!!

A couple of you have expressed comments that he may have had patches on his feet.  However, I would be very confident in saying what you saw in the picture was only dirt and grime stuck to his hoof wall from warming up over the main track.  After working or training over a dirt track, they dirt gets packed on and only comes off with scrubbing or a good bath.

Cleone... I see you are one of the Secretariat Knights that protect the Greatest Horse Banner.  Like the man said, best Triple Crown races no doubt best 3 year old campaign...best horse NO... He lost 3 times as a 3 year old The Bid NEVER lost ANY race from 7 furlongs to a mile and a quarter. And lost only one race at 3 (read the details into that one sometime) Native Dancer same thing...(Read the details on that too)  People that believe Secretariat was the greatest horse ever did not watch his race before the Triple Crown Races nor the race after.  And the fact that both Native Dancer and The Bid ran at 4 undefeated puts them on top

Cleone ... one more thing I have to address to you and several others: Big Brown doesn't look like he did in the Derby and the Preakness?  He is training towards the Breeders Cup.  Just like he trained towards the Triple Crown Races.  He is not suppose to be at his best yet 3 race back off a freshening should have him perfect for the Breeders Cup... it is there you will see him like he was in the Preakness and Derby.  Remember he will be facing the best horses in the world so getting him to peak at the right time has been job number one. The trainers for Proudinsky and Shakis really thought they were going to beat Big Brown. For him to face older horses on their Turf and beat them at their own game was really something special. How good could Big Brown be on turf? Many believe he would be the favorite if he ran in the Breeders Cup Turf Championship.

Sorry, still not impressed.  In this company,m I would have expected him to win by the distance he's won some of his other races - not by the narrow margin he did.

They say he won't run at four - I'll believe it when I see it - fully expect that if he can pull off any kind of placing in the Classic, he will be back.

Draynay:

I agree with you concerning Secretariat. And Native Dancer should never have lost the '53 Derby. Terrible trip, yet one more jump he would have beaten Dark Star and retired after his four year old campaign the only undefeated Tri Crown winner. That's racing. He did become the most influential sire in the second half of the 20th century.

Also, check out the 3 yr old campaigns of Citation and Buckpasser. Buckpasser was truly an unlucky horse. In the midst of his 15 race winning steak he got hurt after winning the Florida Derby and Flamingo Stakes and missed the Triple Crown races. After returning to the races, he won his remaining 13 races as a 3 yr old, including crushing Derby and Preakness winner Kauai Kink by 15 lengths in the Arlington Classic while setting a World Record. Almost surely he would have won the 1966 Tri Crown if not for a quarter crack.

I disagree cocerning BB and Curlin. If Curlin wins the JCGC on the 27th., he has HOTY locked up. He doesn't have to run another race. Don't believe me? Check out the current NTRA Thoroughbred Poll.

www.ntra.com/stats_index.aspx

Those are the guys who do the voting. And just about everyone of them have Curlin #1. BB's victory yesterday may allow him to overtake Zenyatta for the #2 spot, but Curlin just about has the HOTY voting locked up.

I have a feeling that the connections of Curlin are going to skip the BC and head for the big bucks of the Japan Cup and/or Hong Kong race. In fact, I believe quite a few trainers are not going to bring their horses to race on the unproven surface at Santa Anita. The connections of BB had their chances to challenge the reigning champ in the Woodward or JCGC. They may have lost any chance to run against Curlin now. We'll see.  

draynay, I say this very respectfully, but when you enter a horse in a race aren't you committed to try to win? What is this crap i hear all the time "We really don't care if he wins as long as it's a good effort, 'cause we're really aiming for race "x" and that's when we want him to "peak"...Excuse me (not you, draynay) but isn't that, to put it mildly, disingenuous? and we, the betting or non-betting public, are supposed to be able to figure out if a trainer/jockey/owner is really trying to win or is it just "conditioning"?

MY god Dray,

 I'm sorry, i can't even imagine what that had to be like. By the way your horse ran a very guttsy race yesterday congrats.

Draynay  You are truly starry eyed over BB. BB ran his race against secound tier turf horses in a race that was written for him. He won by a neck, No one is disputing his quality but you are over the top in proclaiming his greatness. By the way BB has already peaked. Job number one is to keep him together. Also, the way the raced unfolded and with the running style of the top contenders  the race set up perfectly for him.

Draynay - sorry to hear about your wife accident but I'm very glad she is ok and she can wear a high heels :-)I know how much it means to her!

As for all of you who are barking and snapping at this great horse - you are never going to be happy with him, no matter where he wins, no matter what opposition he will face. It is really very sad to read. Before the KD you were complaining that he did not face any "good" horses. Didn't he win in KD against all best horses in the country?? Yeah, then you said that this was the weakest crop of 3-year old...OK, he moves forward and faces older, experienced grass horses - and what do you say? He should face GI winners....Geeee, whatever he does, wherever he goes it will always be NO good. He will go and beat others in BC - I'm sure you will find a million excuses to hold on to to disqualify him in the eyes of others (and yourself)

As a small detail I would like to mention that BB doesn't have much input in to the decisions regarding his races, as a matter of fact he has as much to say as he had to chose his dam and sire... If you don't like his trainer or connections, why you trowing stones at BB?? For a God's sake, don't kill the messenger! BB has done everything he was asked to do, even in Belmont he wanted to run but he was pulled up. If Kent wouldn't pull him up, BB would at least loose with class (I bet you wouldn't be happy either). But why judge him based on his connection's actions?? I just can't understand why some of you are sooo short sighted.

One more thing - before judging him and comparing to Curlin take into consideration his tender feet. I would want to see where Curlin would get if he would have a feet problems...probably not too far. Brownie has way much more heart and stamina than most of the racing horses, Curlin included.

I was never a Curlin fan but I do enjoy watching his races and I'm happy when he wins - and I'm not looking for excuses "why he won". Can you just enjoy Brownie run? If you hate the horse so much and feel that you can't stand him - just switch a channel! I'm just glad horses can't read...

Best regards

No Patches: Thanks for your comeback however the second place horse had no dirt stuck on his feet. I realize they have to cross the main track to get to the turf course but by the time they run the race there shouldn't be any dirt left on their feet. I'm curious because it does look like patches. Anyone that was there and saw him in the paddock comment thanks.

Interesting thoughts everyone. I was pretty happy with what BB did. Proudinsky was giving him a run for his money and BB dug in and found another half gear. This horse has a ton of heart. You have to love that no matter where you place him in the Pantheon of Horse Racing.  I do think his feet are worse than previously indicated. But I believe Dutrow et al. are doing the best they can to keep them in good condition for the BC. As for racing Curlin, my personal opinion is that NEITHER of the owners and trainers really want the two to meet up for a number of reasons. If BB beats Curlin there goes Horse of the Year for Curlin. If Curlin doesn't show up at the BC, BB owner's/trainer feel like he has a better chance of winning and becoming HOTY. Curlins people are thinking maybe a Euro horse is going to beat him or Henry The Navigator. Just my thoughts. They are both great horses. I feel lucky to see them both run. They are both great for horse racing.

Big Brown's looking good again. Curlin better run in the BC if he wants to win HOY. If Big Brown wins the BC he'll definitely be HOY and same for Curlin. Curlin has to take him down. Go Curlin!

The Goodwood is the most logical choice.  This will be the final tune up for the likes of Go Between, Col John, and Well Armed.  The older of the two are dancing every dance on the synthetics with ultra consistency (Santa Anita Handicap, Pacific Classic, San Antonio) and setting track records (San Diego Handicap) in the process.  Plus with Well Armed being 8 off of Curlin in Dubai and 1/2 length to Go Between in the Pacific Classic it would look like Culin is well above any of this bunch, but in his absense, the nod would have to go to to these two over BB.  It's not the track that is "untested" it is BB.

"I would certainly love to get Big Brown somewhere down the road, hopefull, at the Breeder's Cup."

Eoin Harty comments after Col John's win in the Travers.

Even before the Monmouth Stakes announcement it would appear that few in the Handicapping ranks fear BB.  Well Armed, who has to be the feel good story of the year after almost being put down, certainly is not ducking the competition due to "flawed" confirmation.  

Thanks Jason you are 100% Correct.

SaratogaAJ, If you think for one minute The Florida Derby winner, The Kentucky Derby winner, The Preakness winner, The Haskell winner, The Monmouth Stakes winner and the Breeders Cup Championship winner doesn't get Horse of the Year you are wrong.  Big Brown wins and he is HOY end of story.  Curlin has to show because there are two horses in the race that could win and take HOY from him ... Big Brown and Zanyetta.

Tremendous effort by BB.  This puts him back into contention for Horse of the year.  Keep in mind though; he will have to take on some really good synthetic specialists in Go Between , Colonel John, not to mention Well Armed and Mast Track.  The combined life time records of those four horses on Synthetics tracks,  hitting the exacta,  is a staggering 91%.  So if Brown beats these dudes on their favorite footing, than he will clearly be considered the 2008 Horse of the year, regardless of what Curlin does the rest of 2008.  The classic is actually starting to develop into a very competitive affair that will offer some huge value on exotics, since the race can go many different ways and will come down to a head bob by one of these.  Something a month or two ago, I would have said  was looking a little weak  Not anymore!.  Go between is in solid form and will probably be favored.  Colonel with Harty Eoin, is going to be peaking, and the others mentioned are solid local studs that can bring the heat on non-synthetic specialists.

Just a comment...

Why, before the race were people saying there's no way he will win, he's up against tougher horses....

Then BB wins, and they say he WASN'T up against a tough field?

Just a question. Not just here though, I've read the same all over the net. I just don't there are so many people against this horse....

Also, Jason, weren't there many races created for other horses in the past?

jshandler:

With all due respects, I disagree. IF Curlin wins the JCGC, skips the BC, and then wins the Japan Cup I doubt your fellow turf writers will vote the same as you.

How many horses have won G-1s in Dubai , the US and Japan in the same year? Thats like 3 different continents.

BB, on the other hand, has repeated beat up on a rag tag group of 3 yr olds, and his connections have repeatedly looked for soft spots since the Belmont. Wasn't it his owner who said "after the Kentucky Derby, the one 3yr old race to win is the historic Travers"...then went for the weaker field in the Haskell instead. Go figure.

And let's not forget Curlin never QUIT IN A RACE like you know who. Would have finished dead last even if not pulled up. In the "The Test Of Champions" 12 furlong Belmont. With absolutely NO excuses. The greats don't quit!

Even Curlin's second place finish in the Man'O'War was better than he was given credit for when you analyze and watch the rerun of the race.

And lastly, I'd like to know who were the geniuses that planned the BC races not once, but two years in a row on an unproven surface that many trainers hate? And it's certainly NOT the surface, given it's totally bias nature, to decide HOTY. I guess with your reasoning, if Travers winner and artificial surface lover Col John wins the BC, he's HOTY too, right?  

I see draynays prediction of a win by the Big Ole Browneye of 5 lenghts or more was way off. As usual he way overestimates the horse. A nice win over better competition but still not facing the likes of a Red Rocks or others on the turf. Frankel sent his second choice and nearly pulled off the race. Outside of him there was nothing else in the race that had much quality. Shakis is a has been and the rest were never beens. An uncontested lead at a very reasonable pace was what won the race for Brownie. It's one of the most powerful advantages in racing. That's what you get when you create a race at the last minute. The real tough grass races (G1's) have quality depth, and a high percentage of the time there are rabbits to contend with for the front runners. No easy gallops then just hold on in the last 1/4.

Once again the Big Ole Browneye proved he can win when all things go his way.

BB ran a great race in spite of not winning by daylight. My concern is that he does not seem like he would like a challenge early if he goes for the lead, and i doubt very seriously that he will get an uncontested lead in the classic. Wonder why they don't rate him anymore like they did in the derby? is he now un-rateable? J, if he does not win the classic, how will you vote?

My computer crashed when I asked this the first time so I'll try again.

Jason, have you heard when the Curlin people will make their decision on the BC Classic? I assume it will be after the JCGC, and know they are keeping up with the surface at SA, just wondered.

Also, has there been any word on when BB will ship to SA? Or will they continue his prep on the East Coast? I can't recall reading about it but I may have missed something. Thanks

 Well, Big Brown won, not in a spectacular way, but he still won.  It was great to see him running comfortable again, much closer to the horse he was when winning the Derby and Preakness.  This will practically force Curlin to show up in the Breeders Classic, and what a race it will be if he does.  Curlin, Big Brown, Commentator, Well Armed, Go Between, Colonel John, possibly Duke Of Marmalade and Henrythenavigator!  What a field, that is exactly what the sport needs.  With Big Brown winning the drama only escalates and all eyes point towards the Jockey Club Gold Cup to see if Curlin can continue the game.  

GO CURLIN!!

Kirk--

Props to you and all of Nightscape's connections for running with BB and the rest of the field. Your horse a gamer, and I am surprised more like Richard Granville not running over to Bel Air, MD to breed to Nightscape's Sire. Placing Northern Flair in the Bonita Farm breeding shed with Mojave Moon inspired in my book-- unlike BB, at least you avoided Boundary's feet, for example :-)

All the best, and I hope the Penn National surface soon a much better one for you and all runners up there. Why not a Tapeta surface for Nightscape and the other Penn National runners? It's been great at Fair Hill. Missed opportunity here-- and no, I don't work for Michael Dickinson :-)

The BCC being such an important race, I would think that Dutrow would want to ship early and get BB working out here and on to that surface getting him acclimated.  They seems to think that his grass works will translate and be the same as the new surface.  It could very well not be.  Why not ship early and work on the SA turf course if his feet need it?  Get him used to the SA backside and track.  That's important but they have shipped him like a day before for his other races and it has worked so I guess if it isn't broken don't fix it.

I'm with you on that one Draynot. I would have liked to see Red Rocks etc in the lineup. The people that are complaining about the horse getting no respect, it's not the horse it's where they are running him. Jason's right when he says that they are taking a strange route to BC. Winning that race still doesn't answer questions about his ability to beat top notch horses. At this time of year if your talking HOY for a 3 year old he better showcase his talents in Grade 1 races. It was a nice win but if he's that good he should beat Grade 2 turf horses.

 Draynot:. Shakis just beat Grade 1 winners a few weeks ago at Saratoga and is in top form. Shakis has won Multiple Graded Stakes races and last year lost to two of the very best Better Talk Now and English Channel by a head. Proudinsky LOVES soft ground and is a Multiple Graded Stakes winner and got a perfect trip and could not run down Big Brown who ran on turf for the VERY FIRST time as a 3 year old.  He beat seasoned older horses at their own game. At the Haskell he had to dig down and run down lone speed and this week he had to dig down and fight off a very fast closing Proudinsky and still you doubt this horse who is undefeated with 4 good shoes on his feet.

SARATOGA you can try to convince yourself Curlin is HOY but if Big Brown wins the BC its over. Curlin cannot win HOY by avoiding the best 3 year old in the world.

With all due respect to other horses running in the Classic, and depending on which Euros actually run in that race, and with all due respect to Zenyatta as well, if Curlin doesn't show up for the Breeders' Cup, I would love to see IEAH reconsider putting Big Brown in the BC Turf. We already know that the horse loves this surface. ProRide is still a question mark.

Imagine a horse, who is more natural on the grass, yet has already won two-thirds of the Triple Crown on dirt, following that up by winning America's biggest grass race against some of the best turf specialists in the world.

I can't help feel that one of the major reasons why Brownie is being pointed toward the Classic is in hopes that Curlin will be there to. Then he'd probably have no choice but to run in that race in order to have a chance at HOTY. But if Curlin bypasses it, why not run Brownie in the Turf? The ProRide will be an unknown for him until just a few days before the Classic, he'll have only one workout on it, and if for some reason he doesn't take to it, they can't call an audible and switch him to the Turf. He'll be committed to the Classic.

So let's just say for argument's sake that the Classic lacks Curlin. Let's say Big Brown goes in the Turf instead and wins, and Curlin goes in the Japan Cup Dirt, and wins. Then I think both horses would be equally deserving of HOTY, depending in part on how tough the fields actually were in both races.

Being a racing fan and living in NJ, I attended Saturday's race; not that I was really the excited about it. The program said "The Monmouth Stakes, presented by IEAH." It should have said, "Created by IEAH" (along with the willing partner, Monmouth Park.

Big Brown hung on to defeat  Grade II winners in Proudinsky and Shakis, nice horses, but none that strikes fear the way Red Rocks would have. Of course, Red Rocks was eliminated from competition because he needs at least 1 1/4 miles to be at his best; Big Brown's connections were able to 'write the race' on their terms figuring the front-runner would be aided by the shorter 1 1/8.

In terms of bringing new fans, it may have been a good day as the fans, many whom I believe are relative newbies, (enticed to come out to the track by the presence of a Derby/Preakness winner, as well as the offer of a "free" t-shirt, (many 'spinners' as the t-shirt coupons were gone before the first race)cheered Big Brown as if he had actually won the Triple Crown.

I believe I will have my day when Big Brown runs in the BC Classic. I don't see him winning on the front end against a top quality field. I just hope he gets beat by something other than a synthetic track specialist, like Go Between.

I would also be concerned about Big Brown keenness to go on early in his recent races. It seems that everything that he did so well in The Deby and The Preakness, in terms of rating willingly, have gone by the wayside. He fought Deormeaux in The Belmont, to a lesser degree in The Haskell, and even in Saturdays race he through his head back as they passed the finish line the first time. The quarter and half-mile splits were fast, and may have been faster had  the longshot who ran with him early not blown the clubhouse turn. I think the Goodwood, or any other race over the track, is the way to go in terms of prepping for the BC. As for Curlin, I saw his Woodward live. I hope it was workman-like, as some have said.  The fractions were quite fast and I give the Shiekh's horse credit for hanging so tough, but Albarado definitely did have to ask Curlin for more than he would have hoped for. Curlin won me over when he won last year's JCGC, defeating a determined Lawyer Ron, who at that time was on top of his game, and far and away the best older hors in the country. I hope Curlin hasn't lost a step. I'm hoping he can meet BB in the Clark at Churchill in Nov. Curlin and BB would scare off all others creating a match race, which I don't believe either horses connections would be happy with.  Maybe IEAH can "create" a race with similar conditions and add $300K woth of added money to convince other horses to try their luck.

You've got to remember something... this was by far a grade 2 stake race.  Yes, Big Brown was far outaged... but, Big Brown is suppose to be a grade 1 horse.  How come you never see a horse like Curlin running in a field like that? Those other horses were about to catch him... even Rick Dutrow said he thought they would have him.    If you want to know the truth I think Rick not only found an easier track for Big Brown to run on, but also an easier field, as a prep race so he wouldn't put to much strain on those feet.  I'm not saying Big Brown is a bad horse... but Big Brown is about run all those feet of his can take.  They are just trying to take it easy with him so he can make a go of it in the Breeders Cup before retiring.  He was a good horse in the Derby... but he's just about had it.  

Johnny... you do not win HOY by avoiding the best 3 year old in the world.  Everyone has known forever that Big Brown is going to the Breeders Cup along with the other top horses in the world.  A true champion can win on multiple surfaces and so far Curlin has not. Big Brown has won on dirt, turf, and if he wins on Pro Ride that will be 3 different surfaces in one year.  That will make him the only horse in history to beat Graded Stakes horses on dirt, turf, and Pro Ride. How many years has it been since the Derby winner won the Breeders Cup ? No matter how you spin it when Big Brown wins the BC he WILL be HOY.  Just sit back and enjoy the (Pro) ride.

Draynay

You mean the way BB has avoided Curlin the last two months? And the Travers? And any other race that doesn't have patsies? He still hasn't beaten anything close to what Curlin has beaten the last two years. Had BB been born one year earlier, maybe he would have finished 4th to Curlin, Street Sense and Hard Spun. Maybe. Check the times of the races and the Beyers. BB is the most over rated horse in years.

Hey, off topic, but while I have all of you here (OK, so it's Jason that has you here ;-0) is Casino Drive here in the states yet? If Casino Drive comes over from Japan, does his one prep race for Breeder's Cup & then actually wins the BC, that'll drive the ol' Thorough-grah-ometer needle off the charts! Bless his heart if he can win the BC in a 4th lifetime start!

Someone said that TIZNOW deserves criticism for not making it to his fall campaign. Huh? He won the Super Derby, the Goodwood AND the BC Classic as a 3 year old! And he didn't duck anyone either!

Someone else said that BIG BROWN didn't need to be in the Travers because he "had beaten those horses already." So what? Beating some horses one time doesn't mean you're going to beat them again! BIG BROWN beat DA' TARA by 23 lengths in the Florida Derby, and then DA' TARA came back and beat BIG BROWN by the length of the Belmont stretch! BIG BROWN couldn't keep up on Belmont day. That's horse racing. BIG BROWN should have been in the gate either on Travers day, or on Woodward day, instead of ducking everyone. Champions don't duck anyone.

Last but certainly not least, another person said that BIG BROWN is the best 3 year old of the last 30 years? Oh really? Let's go back 30 years. Hmmm...we have AFFIRMED and ALYDAR in 1978. BIG BROWN is not nearly as good as either of them. In 1979 we have SPECTACULAR BID. There has not been a horse as good as The Bid since The Bid retired, and BIG BROWN is certainly no comparison to SPECTACUALR BID.

BIG BROWN isn't as good as SUNDAY SILENCE and EASY GOER either. And he's not as good as HOLY BULL. All in all, though, BIG BROWN is a very good horse, but I like to give credit where credit is due, and he's nowhere near the league of SPECTACULAR BID or AFFIRMED.

Enough with the shoe excuse. It wasn't a factor. He ran down a rubber legged allowance horse in the Haskell and beat secound tier turf horses in an ungraded race at Monmouth.

Mike S:

You left out one more "3 yr old in the last 30 years" that is better than BB...Curlin! In fact, Street Sense and Hard Spun too, if you look at the Beyers! LOL

PS: Point Given wasn't too shabby, either.

Mike S. when I said 30 years I was going back to The Bid.  Should I have said 29 to be more exact?  How is this... Big Brown is the best 3 year old since The Bid. MikeM.... Big Brown has won every single race he has ever been in except the one where he got stepped on coming out of the gate and had a shoe hanging half off. When he loses with 4 good shoes on his feet let me know. Shakis a second tier turf horse? Tell that to all the G1 winners he beat at Saratoga a few weeks ago.

Saratoga let me say this once so I don't have to say it again.  Big Browns feet were BLEEDING after the Haskell. To run him again on dirt before the BC would have been foolish and could hurt the horse. A nice turf race was set up and 3 very tough MULTIPLE GRADED STAKES winners showed up to take him on Shakis, Silver Tree, and Proudinsky. Big Brown stepped up and beat them at their own game. He got the work he needed and proved to be as talented on turf as he is on dirt.  Curlin won his HOY title at the Breeders Cup if he wants to keep it he has to show up and face the best because that is what Big Brown is going to do... show up and face the best. Once Big Brown makes the lead NO HORSE has ever passed him and I expect nothing less at the BC.

It is so funny to me when somebody reads what I write and completely does not understand what I am saying.  When I said BB is obviously dodging the competition, I don't mean the horse is making his own decisions! Give me a break. It is implied that I am talking about his connections.  Oh yea, it will be tough for him to make it to the Classic because of his feet, not because I wished he would lose or I think the horse might be frightened of the other horse running in the same race. lol

Draynay,

I think you've said the same things more than once, the one trick donkey errrr pony, that's you.

His front feet are the problem and they have patches, pads etc per the hoof specialist.

What are you going to talk about when BB retires in Dec, especially if he loses the BCC? Then he'll join the ranks of horses who won two legs of the TC and not even like Street Sense who broke the Juvenile jinx and won the Derby.

These comments about BB's feet bleeding supports my comments on the bad management of this horse. Why in god's name would you run a horse who's feet are so bad they bleed. that's just about abuse in my book.

jed_Dog,

You have to understand that some people get really emotionally involved when there is a horse they love.  I something is said that they don't like they automatically feel the horse is being belittled and they are quick to defend.  It's just an emotional response.  I've been criticized for responding back to Draynay regarding a comment he made saying that Col John beat a bunch of nobodies in the Travers but when BB beat them in the spring, they were all Grade 1 winners.  That was not a slam to BB just a comment on an unfair statement about Col John and one person on the blog thought I was beating up BB. That's how involved horse fans get.  You just have to understand where they are coming from.  One thing is to not respond to a passionate statement about a horse.  It is the person's opinion and they are entitled to it.  There's no point in ruffling feathers.

NOT! I was

Wanda,

Once again you are right!  My God!

That horse has been through enough.

His feet have to be paining him because he is not showing the brilliance he did in the spring.  The feet may very well have gotten worse because of no steriods, I really don't know but he is not the same horse he was.  I have to say though, he sure wants to win, bless his heart but why should he suffer to do so?  Someone on here said he watched all of BB's races and said there was a hitch in his stride that wasn't there before.  You are absolutely right.  This is abuse, plain and simple.

Draynay,

God love you but I think you're going to be disappointed.  I know how you love Big Brown but please think about all you've said with an unbiased mind.  I have developed a great deal of respect for him because he has such courage and tenacity but he has never run against the type of horses he's going to face and he only won Saturday on guts and heart

at 1 1/8 miles on the grass.  He didn't run away with that race as he has done before.  He's going to run on poly next and who knows how he will like it?  Maybe he will but that doesn't mean he will win by 5 lengths.  Col John is a synthetic specialist and a late developer and he has no foot problems.  There are some really good grade 1 horses going in there

and it will be tough.  BB is running on bad feet and he shouldn't be.  He had a brilliant spring but is sacrificing his health and well being worth it?

He is a wonderful horse and if he wins the BCC, then he deserves HOY

no arugument there but it will be tough for him, don't think he'll just run away with it and never look back like in the Derby.  This competition is really, really tough

so don't get upset if he doesn't win but if he places, I would still think he achieved something special.  I know what it's like to adore a horse like that.  I loved Smarty Jones and I was heartbroken when he didn't win the Belmont.  I predicted he would but it didn't happen and I turned the race off and didn't even watch the coverage after it was over.  I just couldn't.  I know where you're coming from, believe me but sometimes our horses just can't do it but that's okay because they are still, I think, One of the most beautiful creatures God created and to witness their courage and determination is enough.  Of course, when they win,

it's FABULOUS!

I guess I'll rephrase my comment. Who was it that said BB's feet were bleeding, I don't remember reading that, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention. Like the ladies said, if they were bleeding that ought to bring the same people out of the woodwork who beat up Larry.

And jed we're all kind of saying the same thing about BB. He's being treated like a possession not a living creature if he is suffering that much from his feet, then he's just the proverbial cash cow and people like Draynay are supporting that. They shouldn't have to 'hold a horse together' just to win a race and reinforce the negative in horse racing that it's all about the money and nothing else.

Wanda and Monica you are absolutely correct. This poor horse, if Draynay really loves him as much as he espouses why would he want him to run? Why would anyone who loves him want that? Draynay, you use the bleeding as a justification for his performance but keep touting him for the Breeders Cup Classic? Why? Synthetic surface isn't the end all and be all. It cushions their feet but doesn't negate everything. I think the number of breakdowns at Del Mar especially when compared to Saratoga would give cause for at least some worry, especially on a colt whose feet were 'bleeding' as you claim.

Im completley unimpressed by his performance against middlg class horses at best and in a not so jaw dropping time or display, also, I think its a joke that they think they can run with Curlin, how odd..they ran from him when it is all said and done. And the last thing is, BB is not the same horse he was and Curlin continues to display dominance.

One last note about Ivarone retiring BB, do what you must but I, as a long time horse trainer and breeder as well as rider know that I'd NEVER breed to a horse with those feet irregardless of his racing capabilities, we are all complaigning about the TB's fragility yet here we are with a stallion to be with the most highly publisized terrible feet in the buisness? He never looks 100% sound b4 race day to me and in the Belmont he looked short and sore on his heels, ugh why pass such a horrible trait along to a breed we are trying to stregthin up??

BB is a very good horse but i do agree with the people on here that have said he's been through enough. I will stand by my point that, steroids helped dull the pain through the spring, that he now has been feeling ever since Belmont. Now that i think this i will agree that the shoe hanging off a tender foot, probably hurt him enough for him to loose. If the horse had better feet, and wasn't constanly pained by them, i'd love to see the match, cause the BB of the spring against Curlin would've been spectacular. Dray, I'm not saying BB is bad only sayin that his feet hurt him too much to run his best, like we saw this spring, that FL Derby was amazing and one of the most electrifying races i will ever see. Curlin vrs BB on that day since both were at there best would've been a race to remember.

JordanA ... I will tell you what I am going to do when Big Brown wins the BC and calls it a career.  I am going to look for the next great horse to hook my wagon to.  A horse like Big Brown comes around once every 20 or 30 years so I may have to wait a while.  But let me tell you something... I have really enjoyed the ride with Big Brown ever since his first win this year.  I have cheered and bragged and boasted about this horse all year long and have often defended him against silly haters.

It has been more fun then any person should be allowed to have. JordanA let me pass a few words to you.....

"Far better it is to Dare Mighty things, to win Glorius Triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, Because they live in a gray Twilight that knows no Victory nor Defeat."

normajean - Lost In The Fog comes to mind...

I personally think when a horse runs those fractions on a turf course not rated firm and still has enough kick left to hold off quality graded stakes winning turf closers that its impressive.

You dog Brown for running down an 'allowance' horse that was tiring (he actually did run on a little bit), but say nothing about Curlin being all in to run down a 50-1 shot who was all but falling over in the stretch and was coming back at Curlin at the finish. But yet, Curlin gets cut slack for this because he got the job done, but Big Brown doesn't get this same opinion when he basically did the same thing but over a full second faster than Curlin did and was actually finishing??

BB wins HOTY with a win in the BCC in my opinion...he hasn't done enough wrong to lose it and with Curlin doing everything to dodge him he may lose a little respect.

Dray, I'm gonna take your bait and weight in. You keep saying BB would be the first horse to win on dirt, grass and Pro-ride. My, how carefully you phrase that statement. Of course, we all know that Lava Man was the first to win Grade Ones on dirt, grass and synthetic, so that kind of puts Brownie as late to the party (remember, Grade ONE. Please don't trot out the Pro Ride, or we'll have to start differentiating between turf and dirt surfaces).

Second, I'm not yet convinced he's the best 3YO in the world with the likes of Henry and New Approach.

The horse has been brilliant, and he does need to win the BCC to win HOY. Good on him if he pulls it off with those feet.

Curlin dodging Big Brown?   If I remember correctly... the Curlin people were trying to get Big Brown to race with Curlin earlier in the year.    It is just the fact that the match race in Nov idea was to close to one of Curlin's possible races.   It would be better if they could meet each other in the Classic.

Katsan, good to hear from you, nothing from you for a while. You've always said you love the horses you guys train and own, I've always believed it and this reinforces it.

Draynay,

That was a rhetorical question. I don't admire the WAY you've touted your horse. If you love him fine, but the attitude you did it with hasn't endeared you or unfortunately him to people when we add his connections into the mix.

Mike M...enough with the foot is right!  Sunday Silence trained up to the Preakness in a bar shoe, which they kept on and just clipped the back, and he still beat Easy Goer.  Tiznow was a very good horse and until Culin puts back to back Breeder's Cup classic wins together deserves to be placed in front of Culin on any top 100 list.  As far a BB never being "headed" once he makes the lead, this is not Bob Black Jack were are talking about.  He is going to be facing the likes of Well Armed, a very consistent Tiznow colt, who beat Heatseeker 2x this year and set the fractions for Culin in Dubai. I think the Classic is shaping up to be a very strong field.  If BB brings his "A" game and takes down these older horses he desearves HOY honors.  

We now have the Pacific Classic winner and Santa Anita Big Cap runner up, the Hollywood Gold Cup winner, and the San Antonio winner and 3rd place finisher in the Dubai World Cup all racing very consistent (Oh yes the San Antonio winner also set the track record in the San Diego Handicap only to have it bested by Zenyatta a few weeks later).  Not to mention, the Santa Anita Derby winner now also biting at BB's heels.  Have we mentioned his consistency at the "Great Race Place?"  With or without Culin this is going to be a great field.  I was going out Friday to watch Zenyatta...I may have to go back the next day.

That's right Ashleigh!  Curlin's connections invited BB to run in the Woodward and the JCGC and refused both because the horse's feet are bad.  The only ducking that has been done is gy BB's connections.  

Draynay,

"BB the Best 3yr old in the last 20-30 years"? You are a hoot!

I'd like to know, Avarone or Dutrow...which one are you related to?

Brownie will go down in history as a good horse but even if he wins the Classic will only have beaten "real G1 quality" horses once and that being over an unconventional track. That's not the resume of a great one. By ducking top talent as long as they could his connections will have forever left doubts on whether or not he could have consistently competed with the best. Some will believe he could have but that will only be speculation and we all know what a mess speculators make of things. He was lucky to be born in a year where he could win almost all of his races against his class. His connections had a race written specifically for him in his only outing to date against older second level horses. The competition he has faced doesn't stack up to be much and that has been by design. Brownie has been fun to watch but sometimes as in this case the mantle of greatness gets tossed around way too easily.

 All this talk of Curlin dodging Big Brown is absurd!  Ever since Horse Of The Year honors have been awarded it is the privilege of the reigning Horse Of The Year to choose his spot to run, and the duty of all others to either challenge him, or duck him.  The reinging Horse Of The Year isn't the one with the need to prove himself, that's already been done, that's how he became Horse Of The Year.  His only responsability is to take on all comers in the race of his choosing, not the other way around.

 Curlin has earned the right to choose his running spot, and his connections have given notice of his running spot weeks in advance.  All who wish to take the crown must fight the "king"!

Go Curlin!!  (-:

MonicaV: I've got to take you to task over your steroid/feet comment.Apples and oranges my dear. One has nothing to do with the other. The fact that the horse is still game with bad feet tells me that he has a pretty big heart. Theres been lots of good ones over the years with feet issues that have been under control, and they were still competing. However I think his feet are really bad at this point. I still would like to hear from a racetracker who was there and saw him in the paddock that day. I looked at the picture again and it still looks like he has patches on his front feet around the heels. That is not a good sign in a horse that's going where he's going.

Curlin's owners are the ones refusing to run in the biggest race in N.A. because Curlin might not handle the surface...isn't that why they should run him? To "build his legacy" as they say. From what BB's connections have said they WANT their horse to have a chance at being a stakes winner on 3 different surfaces, but Curlin's owners don't want to set him up to fail. That's why he'll keep running against sub-par older horses that he is obviously much the best over, rather than race the best of N.A. and go up against Go Between, Well Armed, Big Brown, Colonel John, etc. I call that dodging, yes. If he can't pull out of his schedule to face BB, why should BB?

It was a fairly pedestrian effort against a couple of grade 2 horses. His only hope is if he falls in love with the new surface and even then, there are too many variables that can happen to negatively effect his running style that I can only play him in the bottom of my exotics.  Curlin is just too much horse.

Well said V.T. - schabelli and Brian A. I have no idea what they are talking about.  Trust me when I tell you they would have LOVED meeting Curlin at the Woodward ! Curlin dragging himself home in 14 seconds??? The fact is they had to take a different path because of his feet and when he wins the BC is it going to matter? Curlin continues to beat up on average older horses on the same tracks and has not even shipped to California to prove he can beat the best out west.  Well... Big Brown is heading out west to take on the best on THEIR surface and to take on the best around the world. Assmussen knows Curlin cannot win that race. Curlin will not show and will remain a one trick pony.

Wanda,

What I meant by the steriod comment was that possibly it could have helped his feet in some way because all I remember hearing about his feet earlier is that he was prone to quarter cracks.  His feet have become exceedingly worse than they were since the Belmont.  I was only guessing at that because he has not had steriods since befor the Derby.  No one really knows what all the steriods could be doing.  Maybe they helped with his feet, maybe not.  Just a thought.  I didn't think it really had anything to do with his running ability, just maybe his hoofs.

V.T.

Curlin's people may very well run him in the BCC.  They have not ruled it out.  But think for a moment, all of Curlin's races have been grade 1's this year.  He ran his only turf race against a BC turf winner.  Did BB? NO!  Talk about sub-par competition!

So Draynay,

Do you cut and paste your posts?

It seems they are always the same ones.

Wanda, I did read something on one of these blogs (kind of muddled right now so not sure) but anyway I googled it and this one said something about steroids and cell growth, bone marrow and bone growth so maybe??? It might be an interesting thing to research and something wonderful.

Jordan, I've been off the board for a while but wanted a semblance of normalcy even if it is to argue. Draynay mentions his wife but I must say that would have made me so thankful I don't think I would ever utter another harsh word. My absence from the board was due to 2 unimaginable tragedies in the last week and a half. After the first one I wrote a comment but asked Jason to remove it, I was too distraught, then later that day another tragedy occurred. Everything is for a purpose, just remember though how bad things can really be before calling names and being unkind.

I came to this blog late but have just read through the whole thing.  My God!!  All of the horses that get to any of these races that have been mentioned over and over are great horses.  All of them have talent.  All of them are magnificent - it is really useless to argue over which was best because it will always be a personal preference.  I was at Monmouth Saturday.  It was an incredible experience - people were enthralled with racing because Big Brown was there.  I was there for Preakness, Belmont, Haskell and now Monmouth.  I would go wherever Big Brown raced just because he was there.  That is what racing needs, a horse who can stir people's souls.  I stood 5 feet from him as he walked the paddock and was at the rail at the finish line (about 10 feet from where Dutrow watched the race).  I was thrilled and everyone around me was thrilled and screaming.  That's what racing needs!  There is one concern that I had at both the Haskell and Monmouth that I have not read.  When Kent D yanked BB up at the Belmont it was a painful and ugly experience for the horse.  Yanking a horse's mouth hurts and all his previous training was to fly down the finish.  Horses hold bad memories in their heads like glue.  Big Brown's most recent memory as he comes to that final stretch is of extreme pain and being told not to run.  These two races, the Haskell and Monmouth are teaching him to get over that awful Belmont experience.  One lesson riding instructors have always preached is that it takes a horse 10 good experiences to get over one bad one.  I hope these two races are enough for Big Brown to win the Classic but even if he doesn't win he is a GREAT horse.

Draynay,

The pace scenario in the Woodward was ridiculously fast....way too fast for a 9 furlong race. And despite Curlin's 14 second last furlong, he still achieved a 111 Beyer. In fact, all of Curlin's Beyers have been 111 or higher since last year's JCGC.

Meanwhile, BB has NEVER gotten more than a 109 Beyer in any race he has ever run in. Ever. He was all out Saturday and only registered a 105.

I'm sorry, but you are so bias on BB that you completely ignore the facts. Or you are in denial.

The only way the BC Classic will be a close race is if BB absolutely loves the poly track, and Curlin absolutely hates it. Otherwise, BB doesn't get within 5 lengths of Curlin. The Beyers never lie. In fact, Curlin's people are probably more concerned with Traver's winner Col. John, who absolutely loves the poly track, than BB. Col. John is a much more mature and better horse than he was in the Spring. While, if anything, BB has regressed. His races have gotten steadily lower Beyers since the Derby.  

TerriV,

I gave up blogging but just wanted to say horse racing is a little different than English or western riding lessons. We work these horses in between their races and try to fix any problems they might have, give them a positive experience. We'll take them and school them in the paddock and at/in the gate. Paddock schooling can even take place on certain race days usually designated by the track. Most of these high profile colts and fillies don't have 10 lifetime races so you have to fix them elsewhere. I don't know if you ever seen one that may be eased or even vanned off then come back and win next out. They've been worked with, had tons done to try and help them out.

Kat, hope you all will be okay will keep you in our prayers.

Although I'm in your "camp" AJ, Curlin ran a 104 in the Man O'War.  Barely discernible from BB's 105.  Red Rocks ran a 108.

Norma Jean - I think what was said that the field for the Monmouth Stakes was tougher than anticipated, not necessarily "tough".  See first paragraph.

Hey Whatamidoing how are you? Nice to hear from you. How was the ship? Don't be a stranger.

I have a question. People are saying BB's feet are much worse now and that they bled after the Haskell. Does anyone know this for sure (that they bled)? It  makes sense that they want to preserve his feet and that's why they ran him on grass but what is the real story right now with his feet? Look to everyone that loves Curlin, you're right he is one incredible horse. To everyone that loves BB, you're right too. They are both worth loving, as is every horse. GOD's gift to mankind along with dogs.

katsan, Wow, I hope you're okay. If you asked Jason to pull a post it must be bad. I know we're just board buddies and I know my friends wanted to meet you in Ruidoso but it was packed there. We'll be thinking of you and saying a prayer. Hope you have someone to talk with, I know you talk about your husband and family. Don't want to pry but God Bless you.

Katinthehat:

According to the past performances on the NYRA website, Curlin got a 113 rating in the Man'O'War.

TerriV you stated that it takes 10 good experiences to get over 1 bad one. I would bet that Brownie has been over the track well over 10 times since his flop in the Belmont. Either that or Dutrow is not the Trainer I think he is. Along with that I would bet he has been trained to "finish" many times over since then as well.

The reason they call it training is that's where you teach the horses to react how and when you want them to. How you could overlook the fact that this animal has been worked since his debacle in June is amazing. I believe Brownie is intellegent enough to be well beyond any effects that race might have had on his mindset. It's that or he is dumb and untrainable which we all would agree is not the case.

He has some talent, but hasn't had to go against much. You are wrong to assume any ill effects that might have occured back in June haven't been remidied by his connections.

Katsan: Remember we're here for you girl.

MonicaV: Sorry I should have explained better. His feet are what they are so whatever they give him makes no diff at this point. If the feet are that bad the only thing you can do is quit on them. They will not heal if he stays in trainig.Ask for other opinions from other horsemen. Training and running puts alot of stress on feet with thin hoof walls. Quarter cracks are a result of that.

Here's my thoughts on Big Brown.

Born under a lucky star in a year virtually void of competition. He competed against this weak generation until near the very end even getting blown out by the same in the biggest race of his career. Denied the Triple Crown by an Allowance Horse and beaten by a Maiden.

His connections then sought soft races to re-build his resume. They even had a race written specifically for his first start against older horses that no top G1 could have time to point to.

There he held on desperately to win over a useful turf horse not ranked at the top.

History can show many horses who could consistently achieve beyer Figs of more than 100 but less than 110. This is where he fits.

He's now reduced to a one shot prayer in the Classic. Dutrow and Company have wisely managed this year to give him a shot at HOY. Kudos to them for that but it really shows a lack of confidence in their steed that they had to manage as beat they could who he ran against to get him there.

P.S. Please make him the betting favorite in the Classic, bet for all you are worth. I hear the register ringing already for those who don't.

Slyder:

Very insightful blog. Try selling that to Draynay!

IF all the better horses do show up to the BC Clasic, it will be quite a field. Close to the best ever (1998).

The way I see it, the deciding factor will be that last quarter mile. It is here that BB will fold. And while this is Curlin's best distance, he will then get the most competition from  someone other than BB. Col John, Casino Drive and perhaps one of the Europeans could be in the mix at that point. It will be interesting to see who does show up on this controversial poly surface.

[quote]"Saratoga is where champions go." jshandler[/quote]

Hmmm.  Might I gently remind readers of this blog of Man O' War ... Secretariat .... amongst others, who went "where champions go" ...; and, to those questioning the 'class' of 'also-rans' ([i]older[/i] also-rans, might I mention ...) in the newly created 'Monmouth Stakes', might I gently remind readers of this blog of Onion, and Upset?

Why would any sensible horseman/business man want to take a horse to Saratoga?  Particularly a horse that has nothing, really, to gain (except, in the opinion of some of the voting members, of HOY title ... and as JShandler mentions, that will be decided by the BC, anyway ...).  Particularly a horseman whose stable hero has an ongoing foot problem?  I know I would not - best company for me, worst for my horse!

The BC will happily give me something to think about, besides the November elections!

You made a great point there Jason.Only they know how bad his feet are. Their excuse was the timing of the race. Someone pointed out that the grass race was a few days differint. Again I say they have their fingers crossed and I bet the first thing they do every morning is pick up his feet and look at them for 10 minutes.

Saratoga AJ,

I'm not a salesman, I just added my 2 cents worth. If I was though what's a Draynay anyway?

I agree with you on the Classic. It looks to be leading up to a very competitive race. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Slyder:

Draynay is the biggest BB supporter on these blogs. Check above. So much so, he says that BB is the "best 3 yr old in the last 30 years or so".

Yikes!

Saratoga AJ,

I went back and read some of the "nays" previous blogs. Kinda obnoxious isn't he? To each his own, at least he's passionate about something. Me I prefer to worry about more important things like world and national issues. As much of a fan as I am for racing I keep it in perspective in my everyday life. I would never presume to get into a meaningless debate about who's horse is better than who's. What difference does it make in the big picture anyway?

slyder: You ask about BB's biggest fan on here. My posse and I call him "he who we do not name".(Harry Potter).

I certainly agree with you at the end of the day what diff does it make.But hey welcome, it's nice to hear from you keep it coming!

O.k. everyone keeps talking about Big Brown's feet and how bad they are. I am assuming they are worse than they were before the Belmont or thereabouts. Can anyone shed any light on this? Does anyone know this for a certainty? How bad is bad???

Jason, been gone for a while but you hit the nail on the head. In earlier blogs I believe it was TB who claimed she hated what Saratoga had become, wished for the old days. From the sound of the latest comment it sounds like the person has never even been to Saratoga.

It almost seemed to me that the only reason BB ran in the Monmouth Stakes was pure greed, and the only reason Monmouth put up the big purse was the same. Sort of a payback for running in the Haskell and drawing a huge crowd and then doing the same at the MS. Seems like Iavarone knows how to play the money game, well we all know that, as long as he doesn't get caught with his pocket full of pennies. The loser in this whole deal is this poor horse.

Paula, as far as the feet issue, Draynay started the deal about the bleeding feet to support his views on the horse. Maybe I'm wrong, and someone please tell me where to find the article, but I haven't been able to locate where anyone connected to the horse said his feet were bleeding.

Thank you BIGHORSEFAN for your response. Someone above in the posts made comments about how bad his feet were and mentioned bleeding. So I was wondering how bad, bad was. I know his feet are a problem, but there are bad feet and REALLY BAD FEET i.e. he shouldn't be running period.

Does anyone think Commentator has a good shot at winning the BCC if they enter him? He's pretty amazing right now.

Paula:

Yes, Commentator has run two consecutive excellent races, even if he didn't beat much more than allowance horses in the Mass. Cap.

And I do have all the respect in the world for Nick Zito. Great trainer.

However, I believe Commentator is a great miler, who can stretch out to 9 furlongs max. His past peformances suggest he will not get that last quarter mile of the BC classic. It's probably a little further than he would like to go. But based on his current form, he certainly deserves the chance to go. Remember that Zito is not a big fan of the poly track, however. We'll see.    

Paula, I don't know about you but I think that run today and the Whitney with a 120 Beyer were really impressive. To me, they were the most impressive of the US runners being touted for the Classic in the last couple months. Hopefully Commentator came out of the race okay, I really hope they talk Nick into running him in the BC Classic, not really his distance but don't waste him in the mile if you're sending him to SA and the synthetic. He looked like he could have run a lot further and would have won by much more IMHO. Hope his old injury problems are held at bay forever, but at least until after the BC.

Thanks guys for your responses. I really like Commentator and he looks great. I saw that Nick Zito doesn't like the polytrack too. So it's a faint hope that he will go to the BCC I suppose. But wouldn't it be great. I totally agree that Nick Zito is a class act.

Paula:That was me making a comment about his feet "bleeding". He who we do not name made several statments about the horse coming back with his feet bleeding. Trust me when I say that if they were that bad he wouldn't be walking at all and would be in serious trouble with founder. It was an attempt to stop the exaggerated talk about his feet. I'm sorry it kind of backfired, I didn't mean to upset anyone.

Oh Wanda that's o.k. I don't know much at all about horse's feet and with the exception of cracks, I don't know how bad, bad can get. I have alot to learn obviously.