Jason,

My question to you is what is the actual benefit of a European presence? Does it increase attendance at the already most well attended race in America and many other venues? Does it increase television viewership by that much, considering the time difference? Plus how long will it take the Euro's to get interested? Also, what is the percentage of Euro presence at the BC? I know I could probably search out some of those answers, but you have an inside to the powers that be and I can trust your input.

My own opinion is as a traditionalist. That race doesn't need fixing, it's all the others that do. Why would we alienate Americans who can get their colts in if that Euro isn't in and most of all if we want an increased Euro presence I would think a win and your in, in this country might encourage them to come over here and run in some races. I'm not sure what the motivation is to fix the race and series of races leading up to it and those after it, when those are the biggest races, most well attended and largest fields we have IMHO.

Interested to hear your input.

First of all, being British, this win and you're in style race at Kempton is a waste of time. Most of the runners in this race will be nowhere close to Europe's best and most of them will have no experience of a synthetic track. The winner of the race will head to the Kentucky Derby with no prior experience of Dirt. It could well be embarrassing for European racing having the winner of this race finish last in America's greatest horse race.

The Breeders Cup Win And You're In system comes to Europe this weekend for the grass races at Ascot and that is a huge positive. The Breeders Cup should expand the Win And You're In system to include more European races. With European runners being a lot more dominant on grass at the Breeders Cup, it makes those races a lot more exciting with European runners. It doesn't always take the best Europe has to offer to win the a Breeders Cup Turf race. Last year had fewer European Breeders Cup runners for a long time. It was only Aidan O’Brien who entered his best horses.

There actually isn't much chance of Australia being used considering it's a country that belongs to the Southern Hemisphere. A southern hemisphere bred runner in the Kentucky Derby?

The big problem with trying to attract International runners for the Derby is; Dirt racing simply doesn't exist at a high level in most countries.

The premier races take place on grass in Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and Australia.

Overall it is a great idea that American racing is opening up and embracing International competition but this isn’t the right race to do so.  

Jason-

Thanks for the follow-up and the Q & A with the Churchill Downs Senior VP.

Fact is, this "win and you are in" also serves to affirmatively address a major structural impediment to getting Euro trainers to actually point a horse to the Derby-- they are never sure if its worth their time to so train, given the unceratinty as to whether they will have sufficient graded earnings to make the field of 20.

I was thus VERY disappointed to learn this decision to partner with Kempton Park for a "win and you are in" is NOT being coupled with overdue reform to how the other 19 qualify. Why should 2 YO earnings count the same as 3 YO? So, some hot shot early blooming 2 YO hits a race big, while a 3 YO campaigner coming on stong leading up the the First Saturday in May gets frozen out of the field, so the trainer either sits on hso earnings hoping its enough, or feeling forced to run back too soon in an attempt to qualify, potentially ruining his chances for the Derby as a consequence?

Churchill got the first part of the equation correct-- give the Euros a target to shoot at and an incentive to train a potential Derby-worthy starter, but this side of the Atlantic and the other 19 would benefit from a coupled reform of how THE BEST 19 make it to the gate. Want no part of a committee picking the other 19-- want this based on objective performance.

BTW-- see where Larry Jones announced he is phasing out his barn and out of the game come end of CY 2009? Guess the cumulative effect of the Eight Belles aftermath proved to be too much? Sad for us to lose a horseman like Larry. Glad for Larry and his Wife they can both walk away from the game with their sense of well-being and dignity in tact.

I don't think it's a good thing. I promise you this will just be the tip of the iceburg and I believe the gate will swing wide for more international races to host "win and your in" scenarios. Why does everything have to go global? What are we going to host 10 years from now? The International Derby?

I just want to say that I disagree with the decision of Churchill Downs.  I for one could care less if there are International Horses in the Kentucky Derby.  I enjoy following our great American Horses from January 1 through to the 2nd Saturday in May, and then once again following our great American horses racing up to the Breeder's Cup.

I was uncertain about this when I read it first this past weekend. Now that I've thought about it, I don't like it at all. Currently, if a European trainer wants to send some horses over here to train up to this race on dirt tracks, no one is stopping them. The Saudis already do this. But to guarantee a horse winning an overseas race race on a synthetic surface a spot in the field, just isn't right for this race. Are we going to guarantee a post position for them too to beg for an international presence?

The Derby is an American race. It always has been and always should be.

Also, this idea opens the door to a win and your in style of elimination for American horses as well. Interesting idea for a worldwide Breeder's Cup, but please not for the Kentucky Derby!

I am totally against this ONE race of "win & your in"...it is not right for a foreign horse to supercede a horse who earns all his money here based on one race, GEESH...if International competitors want to run in the Derby let them come over here and EARN a spot in the top 20. I will not spend a dime if foreign horses are given preferential treatment.

I thought the "win & in" for the BC was a lousy idea, but this is awful, the Derby is an American Institution...oh, man, I'm ticked.

At first I too, was excited about this concept. Win and your in..cool. But then I started thinking about all the horses wait listed most every year, and the importance of the Kentucky Derby to us, the U.S. An American race, for American horses, and no we wont shun international players from racing in it, we would in fact welcome those who qualify,on the same standards we qualify. Not by one race but by money won in black type races. Personally, it matters not to me if I see international players in the spring, because what really counts is the end of the season, the BC for the title of "Horse of the World" (Dubai Cup excluded). I say NO. Let us keep something to ourselves, some traditions, and if a foreign trainer thinks he's got the right horse for our derby, then let him enter him as anyone would and see if he qualifies for the race just like ours do. But don't just give it to someone off one race. It's not the Kentucky "DARBY" it's the Kentucky DERBY!

Jose93 makes good,valid points..I think they should keep the European "win and your in" scenario strictly for the Turf races at the BC showdowns..And NOT include Graded 2/3yo earnings raced under a Mile,in determining who goes to the Derby.(eliminates horses who just don't belong).

Also,there HAS to be something other than being overwhelmed this past year,for Mr. Larry Jones to phase out of the business he loves so much?..I mean,the Eight Belles' tragedy,is just that,:a tragedy..It happens ALL the time,more than we would like,but you have to move on if you have a stable to run..I'm sure his horses testing "positive" for a banned substance isn't making matters any easier for Mr.Jones either..That,and coupled with his statement of him "speaking with God" and his "ability" to talk with horses,.huh??!..Maybe,just maybe,he needs a break from the Game to get some well deserved rest.

J,

Well then the issue is the amount of "non" qualified horses entering the derby, and not the fact of a win and your in race? Fine, I'll bite on that, so lets lobby for a maxium of say 12-14, and then let's see how valuable the spots become before we decide to give them away. Correct me please if I'm wrong but history has rarely shown a decrease on derby handle, or on many derby day figures. So I'm not so sure CD NEEDS to market the derby worldwide for more money to be made. I do understand the want of more money, but why not come up with other "gimicks" instead of messing with the one thing in the sport that has remained un-changed and God willing will remain un-changed?

I'm not thrilled with the concept for the Derby but I am wondering about something.... Is the entry or supplement fee going to be prohibitive for the Derby qualifier like it is for many of the Breeder's Cup "win and you're in" winners?  That is one thing I just don't get about the whole deal...why does the Breeder's Cup give a guaranteed spot in a race then make it sooooooo expensive that some qualifiers won't even get to run.  I have noticed several owners saying they just don't know if they can enter.  That does NOT make sense to me!

Jason.

You said the European trainers are positive. What is the thinking of the US trainers, any idea? I posed the Derby question to Steve a couple of days ago and I believe he said it could cause issues wtih the US connections. I know if my horse was #20 I'd be mad. Especially if it was like this year and some had over 100 g's and not sure they'd get in. I don't know about the win and you're in for the BC even. How many win and then aren't in because they have a huge supplement they aren't willing to pay. Like the Arlington Million winner.

I get the feeling that desperation is setting in. I think they're tweaking things a little too much. The KY Derby is traditional and that is what makes it so popular when every other race is struggling. Another reason I'm not a big fan of the Win and you're in because a horse that happens to have a good day can get in and maybe he's even worse than the 20th horse that would have gone. The problem with trying out all this stuff like splitting BC day females on Fri. is that the public is very fickle, mess it up and the casual fan will move on to other things. As far as increased excitement, why would the casual fan who only watches the TC series and maybe the BC get excited about a horse from Europe coming over here and winning our historic race? Also I've heard the Euros kind of look down on American racing,the fans (maybe the trainers too, I don't know about that)

Oh by the way, do they have a win and you're in for the Arc, English Derby etc?

I just think if it ain't broke, why fix it? The KY Derby is one race that ain't broke IMHO

JS, it's arrogant that we want them to come here to earn the right to run in the most coveted race in the world? Like our horses have to qualify? Geesh, this new race has a purse of $150,000, so it's the winners share of a non-graded, low purse stakes that can bump out a graded stakes American (based) horse... get 3-5 of these one race qualifiers and you could easily bump out horses like Eight Belles & Dennis of Cork...hmmm..say, didn't they finish second and third this year...oh well, never mind, we must have that International flavor in the horse race known world wide as THE DERBY.

I guess if the Kentucky Derby can be sold out for "marketing" ...

We've resigned ourselves to the BC "Win & You're In"...there are many of us who reject that the BC is the only race to run in and all the other great races have become mere "preps" where you "condition" the horse toward your end goal. Nowadays we get statements from trainers of top contenders "he doesn't have to win, just put in a decent effort 'cause our real goal is race x"" and that's supposed to encourage us to visit the betting window or embrace the sport? I'm too old and obviously naive, I thought it was to win.

Jason, I agree with some of the things you are saying, but the number 20 horse last year or 19th, I can't remember exactly, was Denis of Cork, and he finished a respectable 3rd. Also I've seen in years past where a horse will mature and peak at derby time and not necessarily have as much graded earnings as the top 10. Go for Gin for example or more recently Giacamo. The surprise horses are always going to be 15th thru 20. But if we want more 2 and three year old Euros over here we must keep the system the way it is. Turf runners will always be turf runners, only a few can tackle dirt. Same goes for synthetic runners, many can't handle the switch. A 150k race is not that impressive. Thats barely equivelent to a Gr3 over here, and normally, thats not enough money to make it in our top 20.

can american horsemen ship their horses to england to race?  an easier way to get to the derby?

Well since the Ky Derby already sold out to fast food, does this surprise anyone? These are the same people who said they weren't interested in hosting the BC, not enough money, used it to negotiate the deal they want, still surprised? These are the guys suing the horsemen over the Account Wagering dispute, still surprised?

The winners share of the purse for this win and you're in race wouldn't have qualified the horse to get in if he was running in the preps here. Why are we courting the Euros, think they're going to save American racing? NOT

I've never quite figured the BC win and you're in deal. The winners usually qualify on purse money so what's the difference. there are a lot of runners in those WAYI races that never intended to go to the BC they weren't nominated and the fees are exhorbitant. They're willing to take the purse money for the Million for example but the risk for reward is too much to pay the supplement fot the BC.

BAD IDEA, now we're going to turn people off on the one race that even the most casual fan watches. I'm just dying to see a Euro no name horse run in the Derby.LOL

All you "America Firsters" might want to reflect on the fact the KY Derby was founded on the European model of the Epsom Derby and Grand Prix de  Paris, and as a further consequence, you self-appointed "traditionalists" might further consider the KY Derby run at the European distance of 2.4 km (or a mile and a half) until 1896, when it was first run at the present-day distance of a mile and a quarter.

Even when it comes to the traditional "Run for the Roses", the first rose blanket did not make its first appearance until 1896 as well.

As these open-minded 19th century racing pioneers will tell you, if you care to listen, traditions, alas, are made, as a result of dare I say it-- c-h-a-n-g-e.

Reading these posts reminds me how mindlessly holding on to the status quo is slowly killing the sport here in the States. Maybe some of you should consider ostrich racing? What's next: do you want to strip Canonero II of his 1971 KY Derby crown since he was foreign-based, or the 1917 winner, Omar Knayyam, because he was UK-bred?

Heaven forbid Churchill should actually try an innovation which serves to grow the sport, doing so in a manner in harmony with the race's very origins. Props to them.

Bryce, Whatever, just because we were an English colony we still need to be loyalists? If you're going to have a win and you're in then have one that will draw the BEST horses. I don't see them having a win and your in for us, do you? There you go, if we have a WAYI for the KY Derby then they should reciprocate. There are lots of foreign entities in the race, Thunder Gulch owned by Brit, Michael Tabor(well I guess an ex-pat now). I think what we are saying is let them actually EARN a place in the race, what purpose does it serve to just say, come on in?

What's killing the sport are people who proclaim to be fans but don't bet, don't own, don't train and probably rarely attend the races. Gambling is what supports horse racing not rhetoric.

We're not holding on to the past, although being a lot younger than you I'd say maybe some of those old values wouldn't be amiss. What I at least am saying that CDI is selling out whatever way they can, it's about GREED. We aren't dismissing the colts you speak of, they got into the race by actually earning it. They didn't have an invented inferior race to get them there. I personally don't like being talked down to by someone who isn't involved in racing, we were giving our opinions not attacking other posters for giving theirs. No one comments to you every time you turn any subject  around to Fair Hills or eventing or Warm Bloods or whatever it is that YOU are actually involved in.

JordanA-- well, I think maybe I hit a nerve or maybe even a synaptic connection. As far CDI selling out to "greed", I guess I was under the mistaken impression they are a for-profit organization-- seems to me they are being very transparent in their decisionmaking, unlike some of the capitalists on Wall Street now in the process of getting bailed out by the Federal Government. But I digress-

Yes, my horse-loving Grandmother always told me "everyone entitled to their opinion, even when it's wrong." Go back and look at those posts and tell me how "unfair" I was being. As a policy analyst by profession for the past 30 years I do know how to spin an argument, grant me that.

For the record I clean the tack of a 30-start retired t-bred who is the first offspring of Gary Stevens mount in the 1986 KY Derby. Bryce Be Quick ain't no "dumb blood" as you mistakenly assert, although clearly his tack cleaner and groom is :-). Jason will gladly confirm I am many things to many people, but not a handicapper in any company, having contributed much more to the industry than I have ever had occasion to report on my tax return.

So, take a vote and if I am voted off the blog, so be it. Maybe I will give "Dancing With the Stars" a shot instead.

Bryce, We already have gimmick races. This brings some fun to the track. Our track has games and giveaways and a card that earns us money every time we use it.

Did Cannonero race here first or did he just ship for the race? Heck if I know, that was then this is now. When you get down to it the argument is our horses have to earn it to get in, theirs don't. And by the way, I already saw an ostrich race this year, I believe it was at Kentucky Downs. That was for fun, but this win and your in gimmick is not.

Canonero came HERE to race, not win some ungraded low purse made up race outside the USA that could bump a US based horse with more graded stakes winnings, like a Denis of Cork or Eight Belles.

That's what's bugging us, pure and simple.

I mean at least they have to come HERE to run in a "Win and In" race to be in the BC series...

And yes, I am unabashedly "America First". It's my home.

Well, those that oppose the idea are not saying Europeans are not welcome in that race. Just qualify the same way that Americans do. I see nothing wrong with that statement. But, giacomo earlier asked an interesting question. Are Americans allowed to ship a horse to England, win that race, then have an automatic right to run in the Derby? I can see it happening with some well-bred, talented, but late developing type American horse that doesn't have enough time to get graded earning by the first Saturday in May.

But I honestly can see a Saudi Sheik owned horse winning the English race anyway, year after year (not because they are better than Euros, but because they are aiming for the Derby and aiming for a dirt track)....

The idea is right, to have win and you're in qualifiers, but to introduce it at Kempton Park? I don't think so. Florida Derby, Wood Memorial, Santa Anita Derby, Blue Grass. Yes

The Breeders Cup “Win And You’re In” Challenge expanded too much this year. It was originally devised as an idea for the premier race days prior to the Breeders Cup using premier and select races and tacks. Now we have the pleasure of lowly Grade 3 stakes winners being given a ticket to the Breeders Cup. The use of the BC Challenge in new divisions is even more puzzling. These divisions never existed for years and therefore no prestigious races in these divisions exist. There seems to be no structure and reasoning behind both these ideas except for marketing.

Jason and Bryce, I'm all for debate and difference of opinion, I know I'm not necessarily right, just entitled to my opinion. What I do take exception to is calling people mindless just because their opinion differs. If others besides me didn't take the following as an insult then I apologize:"Reading these posts reminds me how mindlessly holding on to the status quo is slowly killing the sport here in the States. Maybe some of you should consider ostrich racing?" Not one other post addressed the other posters in such a manner.

I only mentioned Warm Bloods because I saw a lot of reference to that on earlier blogs and you and someone else discussing them. Yes it's great for you to have an opinion Bryce, just don't call out people who put a heck of a lot of money into the game or like the trainers and owners who devote, time effort and love to HORSE RACING. Just because a person is involved with horses doesn't make them an expert in every discipline involving a horse. Now if you were telling me about Eventing, I guarantee I'd listen very carefully but if you threw out an insult there I'd get irritated with that.

Yes CDI is for profit but you can't tell me that every thing they are doing is helping racing. Even if it is up front, what does it matter when the end result is the same. The deal with them suing the horsemens group, you might want to look at that. Those guys want 7%, they were offered 3.5, without the horsemen and the horses, CDI HAS no product.

As for me, I'm far from a traditionalist, what 25 year old is? My handicapping buddies Brad and BIG both are up front about it. They like the tracks like Saratoga, they love the horses of old days but they gamble a lot of money, go to various tracks and they are pretty insightful as to what goes on at the tracks. What almost all of us are saying is WHY should the Euros get a special race MANUFACTURED just for them to qualify, they're welcomed with open arms to qualify like all the rest.

I didn't think this was an argument, just a discussion and putting our opinions out there. If that's the way you spin a benign discussion I'd say IMHO that you probably p.o. more people than you spin to your side.

If you have a horse sitting on the bubble(21st) you better find him a spot it ain't hard. there's lots of 3 year old stakes around. What's next you people that want "American" horses. Here's a heads up are you going to exclude Canadian horses, cause guess where Northern Dancer grew up and oh yea Smart Strike. Give your head a shake it's a global world and change will come whether you like it or not. What rubbish!

Clay-

Before I get voted off the island, the Canonero II story one for the ages: bred  and foaled in Ky in 1968, with a foreleg which looked more like a bow than an arrow, he was deemed unraceable by the bloodstock gurus and went for a mere $1200 in the 1970 Keeneland sale. Shipped to his  new owner's native Venezuela, he won two of four starts against dubious local competition, and then 6 of 8 as a 3 YO, his trainer as they say, "saw something" and he was shipped back to KY in the Spring of 1971.

In the Derby came from 18th in the 20 horse field to win by 3 3/4 lengths. The experts deemed this a fluke (they had to, seeing how he had been lumped into six-horse betting pool for Derby odds setting purposes), until he then won the Preakness two weeks later in NTR time. Fighting a foot infection, he lead the Belmont until finishing 4th, much to the disappointment of the Latino community packing the stands at Belmont.

Came back as a 4 YO to defeat 3 YO champ Riva Ridge in the Stymie Handicap at Belmont, once again in new course record time.

Given that leg it's a wonder he got any book, but still managed to sire 8 crops before deemed a failure at stud (standing at Gainesway Farm in KY), retiring to his adopted Venezuela at age 13, with 5 stakes winners to his credit.

Died all but forgotten, and arguably one of the greatest unrecognized horse of his generation, except by those like me who always remember a horse with grit and heart. Hope Showing Up, what with his own interesting conformation, doesn't end up the same way standing down there at Adena Springs South. Won't forget him, either.

I'm with da3hoss, I'm an American, so I have that loyalty and point of view. The only thing is da3 is they now have a win and you're in, in Japan, probably soon in Europe. That is fine. It's the BC World Championships. The KY Derby is actually America's race.  Since we're relatively young as countries go, of course we borrow some traditions but then make them our own with our point of view. If anyone wants to come here and qualify for OUR race then come ahead. Jason, you weren't gung ho for the BB 'made for' race, that's what this deal is only the purse wouldn't even start to qualify a horse from here for the race. What do you want to bet that the whole thing will be a moot point? Or are they going to waive the fee to supplement if the colt wasn't nominated? Then what about the entry fees? I just see it as a race that probably won't get a KY Derby starter from it.

And yes Bryce, that was an insult from you. If that's the way you spin, I'll take a pass.

This is what I don't get, you promote change and encourage it, and tell us to try to accept it,(reality is, we really DON'T have a choice if we want to continue with our love of the sport) but change is what we are asking for here first, and WHY can't we lobby for either less horses in the starting gate or whatever it would take to ensure top quality horses in the gate? If we must accept a win and your in as change why not something here at home most of us would like to see changed anyway first? You have a voice in this game, you agree with reform, why can't we start something? Why is that "impossible" but win and your in is not?

Remember back in the day when they started a series (can't remember the name)where older horses would earn points for certain quality races, and it had championship ties? They were on TV as well, and it was exciting, everyone, especially the fans got to see the older horses running, and the classic always seemed to be classic. After what? a year or two? gone. like the wind. Seemed to recall the failure being a disagreement between tracks. The greatest promotion of the sport ever (besides the BC, Derby) and gone in a minute. We didn't have a say so,we never have a say so. But you say change is good? Ok I agree change IS good..but this is like trying to put the cart before the horse, isn't it?

Quarter Horse Racing has it right--Before their Champion Of Champions event, they throw in a couple of trial races for the last couple of spots to insure their championship race had ALL the contenders!! Yes! Yes! have two/or more "Win & In" races for every race! This ONLY insures/strengthens race quality! But YES! This is a no-brainer! Bring them on!

Wanda, Hey how are things up North?

Just want to assure you that I haven't read that anyone wants to exclude ANY horse from the Derby, IF they qualify on earnings. What seems to be getting lost here is the fact that this is a marketing ploy. Wanda, I know you weren't all that excited about a race specially created for Big Brown, this is the same deal. Churchill Downs Inc is trying to create a buzz by creating a race that's a Win and You're in, it sure has all of the fans talking about it. In effect the Florida Derby, Arkansas Derby etc are all those Win and In races because of the high purses. However, the level of competition is higher than it will be for this English race, I'd bet. Like someone said, it'll probably end up being a race that European horses enter just to win the purse. The nom fees, entry fees shipping costs etc would probably preclude any of those type horses actually coming to the Derby and I personally think the Euros would rather shoot for their big races. If the Churchill folks really want to bring a great European horse over here, then count any comparable earnings of the graded stakes in North America from the races over there towards the Derby. What I and possibly others are saying is that why should just 1 race of questionable grade, small purse(relatively speaking when compared to a million dollar Ark or Fl derby) qualify a horse to the biggest race we have? If a really great horse comes through that way what kind of advantage does that give them over the colt/filly that runs 3rd or 4th in one of our races then has to run in another to assure they qualify? Maybe that runner up is a horse with a legitimate shot at the Derby but has an off day so ends up having to run an extra race to make it in. You have a horse not as fresh as one who had to run just 1 race, whether it's a great European horse or just a middle of the road one.  Or say the earnings qualifier who ran that extra race wins the Derby, then the Preakness and here again you have a tired horse going up against the others, maybe that 1 race extra costs them the Triple Crown. It just tilts the playing field. But it does assure that those having to actually qualify on earnings will run in more races if they don't win the great big races, maybe that's what CDI is shooting for (help the other tracks? I don't know about that, there's only so much wagering money out there.)

And Wanda, last but not least:

I haven't seen any of your Canadian horses coming in the back door, they all step up to the plate and give qualifying their best effort.

Slew em all.

With Larry, do you know the hate mail, death threats etc he received? The tampering, turning horses loose etc.(This is a guy with NO drug positives in his career, coincidence?).

If you had that happen to you at your job you might start conversing with God trying to figure out what you did that was so rotten that it seemed like any good you had done was being wiped out along with your good reputation. Yes WE all realize it was a tragedy, but the nuts that have done all this stuff don't. Talk to horses, well a lot of people believe in horse whisperer's and some people can get horses to do things that others can't, same as people who have a 'way' with dogs and can get them to do anything.

On top of all the issues that aren't the norm (due to the tragedy) take your boss who might be incredibly demanding and multiply him/her by 10-15 and that constitutes the owner pressure. Most of us want to make it to the top level, problem is some of us don't realize until after the fact that we're just good ole boys doing it for the love of the horse, like Larry said.

It takes a certain kind of person to manage the horses, the owners, the stress and then add even more stress of a tragedy and only certain personality types can deal with that at the highest level. If not why aren't the average Joe's the CEO's of these major companies? These trainers that have hundreds of horses in all locales may be horsemen first but they also have that CEO mentality, they wouldn't survive if they didn't.

I think it's a great idea!  This brings more attention to the greatest 3 year old race in the world.  The first 15 spot for American horses is all you need.  I would like them to open 5 spots to different parts of the world and add a little spice to the great race. How about a win and your in from Japan next ?

Bradgm -- JordanA--

It would appear asking for some relevant facts to support opinions too demanding?

Not looking to convince anyone of anything-- this isn't the Harvard Forensics Union and we ain't tryin' to score any debating points here-- merely trying to get some flesh on opinions so the resultant discussion worthy of Jason's thoughtful take on why continuing to do somthing because, it seems as long as anyone can recall, it has always been done that way, may not be the best path to growing the sport.

I see this as a positive move. By enticing the European's to send some of their best to the Derby it can only make the field stronger. This year was a great example of a weak field that needed some quality. You might be adding only 1 quality animal to the race but that's better than facing the kind of weak competition we had at this years Derby.

Bryce, thanks for the info on Canonero, this was a little before my time and am amazed that he overcame those problems to win the KD and Preakness.

Gee Wanda, no need to kick our butts for disagreeing with the status quo. Globalization is what is making us enemies of other nations. And as far as Canadian horses go, come on, all they have to do ship across the border to run in our races. I was surprised to read this from you, usually you're not so mean to other bloggers.

yes, yes, you're right Bradgm, sorry, my emotions forgot that now there is 'win&in" fact...at least the European races are the equivalent to our grade 1's and our BC day is equivalent to Dubai World, etc...again what bugs me is low level purse of a non-graded race gets you in the Derby and bumps better horse (in graded stakes earned $$$).Sorry,

Bryce, I never forgot Canonero II and think everyone should read his story at Kentucky derby: on the muscle...one of the greatest, most poiignant horse stories of all time. Too sad he died at 13 before he could be used in Venezuela.

It was, however, the fact that initially there were 21 horses entered (one eventually scratched) that year that prompted the serious discussion of limiting the Derby field.

Wanda, i think you're awesome, but you are not reading why we are upset...Canadian racing is graded like ours, we LOVE the Canadian horses...if a Canadian horse earns graded stakes winnings to be in the top 20, he SHOULD be there...if a European horse earns top 20 graded stakes winnings he SHOULD be there, but if ALL you win is the winners share of a non-graded $150,000 purse and you are guaranteed a slot in the Kentucky derby, that's not fair to all the other graded stakes horses with higher earnings, no matter where they came from.

Here I am breaking my own rule again but, is this all for nothing? I think a lot of people are forgetting a little race in England called the 2000 Guineas, usually run the same day as the Kentucky Derby and the first race of the English Triple Crown. My guess is any 3 year old worth their salt will shoot for that and they have their Derby Preps as well. Then the Epsom Derby the first weekend in June, and the St Leger Stakes in September. Maybe Pimlico should sponsor a win and you're in for the Preakness, that's the only American Triple Crown race that isn't at the same time as an English TC race. It's been longer since a horse won their TC (1970 Nijinsky). I think that would mean more to the class of horse we'd like to see them send to the KY Derby.

All Countries are Nationalistic to some degree. I seem to remember my history and England colonized pretty much anything they could get their hands on. Partly to gain access to resources they don't have and to get rid of their undesirables (like all of us).  

If someone decides to take a shot at the Derby win/in they better decide before the January deadline and definitely before the March deadline or they'll be paying a 200g supplemental fee. Add to that 50g's to pass the entry box and actually run, the 20g's (guessing at this one) to ship here and if they don't have a legitimate shot at winning it won't happen. Now if Coolmore decides to do it then the money is no real issue, but, chances are they'd be shooting at the big purses in the preps here if they felt they had a Derby horse.

As far as the BC win/in, they expanded it to Sha Tin in Hong Kong and now 3 races at Ascot this weekend for the Turf races.

As that English guy Shakespeare's play, this seems to be Much Ado About Nothing.  

Even as much as I personally agree that qualifications should be based on a level playing field for everyone based on earnings in Graded stakes, whether here, there or anywhere. Or an equivalent win and you're in here.

Miss Wanda, North American racing is just that and Canada is and always will be a part of that.

Atthebarn, you're right it is Hong Kong. also I forgot about those Juvy turf and the mile qualifiers on the 27th.

I think MOST of us are agreed that we want the best horses in the Derby, whether they're American, Canadian, Venezuelan, Chinese, Japanese,  or whatever. However, I think MOST of us want the horses to qualify in the same manner, by Graded stakes earnings. That's not unreasonable.

Bryce, I don't know what more reasonable FACTS you can ask for considering this is an unprecedented situation. What FACTS do we have available, other than the FACT that all the horses who run in the Derby were qualified on earnings if there were more than 20 wanting to get in.

You bring up horses that no one who is a fan/student of racing (that are obviously the ones commenting here), have forgotten. I'm sure folks like Atthebarn could probably tell you more about Derby horses and winners than you could ever think of. Sorry to bring up age but he's probably seen 50 or so of them right? I know he said way back that his mother was 81 (step mother) and his dad was 88 (actually told me he's 90)but he's been around it for quite a while. I personally have read, studied or watched tapes of those races I wasn't old enough to see or remember. No one brought up the Cannonero II race, he didn't win a joke of a race then come over here. We were all just giving our opinions, You chose to try and turn it into a debate with your comment about the other posters and bringing up something that has no relevance to a Win and You're IN race. There's change for a reason and then change just for the sake of change that's why I asked the original questions of Jason about how much does the English public really care about the Kentucky Derby, heck a bunch of Americans don't care about racing at all, CDI might want to work on USA interest before they go global.

I agree with you Jason that taking the 20th spot is not going to hurt anyone.  In fact it's going to save somebody some money over here.  I think it will take a couple of years to see if it works.  Say the winner of the Euro race makes it here for the Derby.  If the horse finishes well, I think it will become a bigger race over there. And and maybe they will do something similar in Japan for the 19th spot. If the horse finishes poorly the whole thing will go away. btw, anybody know the conditions of the race over there, is it colts and filly's or just colts?

Bring em on!!  The better the competition the better the race. Anything that promotes better competition is a good thing in my book. Every year it seems nearly 1/2 to 3/4ths of the field are throw outs and in this years Derby it was even more. I applaud the effort to make the race even better.

Matthew,

The Champions race is more like the BC. The QH Derby's and the Futurities ALL have trials and you get into the race based strictly on time. That is a huge variance when you figure that the track conditions change when you have 12-20 trials.

I think graded earnings is the fair way to go for the KY Derby. Otherwise open up everything as a win and you're in. Let the U.S. horses go to England and run in that race too. Have several win and in races then go to graded earnings for the rest of the starters, don't make it win for a one group and run your backside off to qualify otherwise.

Whatamidoing;

Exactly..that's why I said he NEEDS a well deserved rest.

Everyone that supports this race talks about the better quality of horses coming from England. Yet the Brit that was an early poster seems to think that race won't draw quality and I think I would agree, so do a lot of others on here who are probably more 'in the know' than most of us. Somebody ought to do a poll and see which trainers over there are actually contemplating the race. I know it's early but you can bet a lot of US trainers are looking to see if they have a potential Derby horse amongst their 2 year olds.

Slew

Sorry if I misunderstood. Seemed to me that you were questioning the validity of the whole deal, sort of intimating that Larry has lost it. Your wording definitely left me with that impression.

I really think it's not something he particularly wants to do, just beyond his scope of comprehension. Note he left open a return, probably after the hate dies down some.

As far as the win and you're in race, I have to agree with my fellow trainer, Atthebarn and some of the others. What makes anybody on here think the cream of the crop over there will try to get to the Derby and what makes anybody think that the winner will even come here. The win and you're in for the Breeders Cup has seen a lot of those just bypass the race.

Jason,

That is the question that's been asked quite a few times, WHO is interested in coming. Maybe the purses are inflated, do you think that's the case with the Arkansas or Florida Derby winner? Seems to me that the Arkansas Derby has provided us with a few KY Derby winners. O'Brien may have said that, fine. He's probably one who might give it a shot but like a lot of us on here are saying, why can't they count their Graded stakes over there just like they do here O'Brien sure has the guns to do that. WHY did they have to create a special race to qualify for it. They don't have that here so anybody who WANTS to get in has to go to the GRADED races to try and earn enough to make it in. In fact the race that's probably the best purse that's slot inflated is the Winstar at Sunland Park and it doesn't count because it's not a graded stakes race. Are you saying that every horse that qualifies on earnings only did so because they ran in a race with an inflated purse? I seem to remember early on a lot of people touting Z Humor. It just seems to me, and obviously others that hold a different opinion than you that it's not a level playing field to have one set of rules for one horse and one for the others. Course, nobody ever said life was fair and from the looks of things on here I would say the majority fan interest would probably be people pulling for the foreign invader who was given a red carpet entry into the race, to get a royal butt whipping.

I also think if they're going to go through with this then it should be a case where our horses have a chance to win and in for their most premier race as well as our own. Don't see them offering that or did I miss it?

Whatamidoing;

I'm saying he's obviously succumbed to the pressures' that be,and he needs a break before he Loses it.Like u stated: not everyone can handle certain situations..bless him

Z Humor?  good one Jas..

I think the Europeans will "Only" point their "dirt bred" horses for the Derby,and keep their more Valuable/Classier horses on Turf for their own Triple Crown races.

Those are WAY more important to them than Ours'..but,if they show-up and impress with their 2nd/3rd string horses,you will see droves of em' prepping here for the Derby in the future.

Yo Jason, I think what the guy is saying is that without knowing who's interested, people on here are saying it will be a great horse coming over and that may not be true. What is true is the Slot inflated purses at Oaklawn gave us some semi decent horses, let see, Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex and that one horse, oh right CURLIN. Let em come from England or wherever, just let em come fair and square. Like a bunch of trainers said it's not just the 3 races in the triple crown series that makes it so tough, it's when you add the preps leading up to it that really wears them out, if that's the case then it's advantage England. As for Z Humor, well Mott trained Zayat owned so that made some guys look twice. Just because Aidan O trains them doesn't mean they're going to be his A team horse or that they'll pan out either.  Wasn't it the Dubai guys who replicated Churchill Downs and guaranteed a win within a certain amount of time doing it their way? Well just because a horse wins a win and You're in doesn't necessarily make them any better than the 20th horse from here. Being a true Graded stakes winner might because the level of competition is higher in most of the graded races whatever Continent they're run in.

Oh and would O'Brien get to bring his 2nd place finisher? I don't think we have a rule about rabbits, but we probably do have one about impeding other horses to assist yours to win, maybe not though.

Well you just never know who's in the top 20, now do you?  

In years past a few of my colleagues squeaked in and made a good accounting. I guess I'll just be a homer and reiterate, every horse that wants to enter should have the opportunity, but an equal opportunity not this kind. As far as the slot inflated purse, if they let a win and you're in run, I guarantee a lot of guys with a better than average colt/filly will go to that race to try and save wear and tear.

Oh what the heck, let's just have Win and You're in races in every country that has horse racing, other than North America. We outsource everything else, send our money out of the Country, why not this too. Although the purse might dwindle and the crowd might not be more than 10,000 who came to see these other horses run. Jason as far a giving it a shot, how many times have we done that with things and it's blown up in our face because it isn't well thought out. You telling me that CDI saying they didn't want to host the Breeders Cup was a well thought out process, well then again maybe so, a little arm twisting.  The lawsuit, well we won't talk about that.  Set the conditions of the race tough enough so the good horses will get in or you may just get a horse that makes Z Humor look like Secretariat.

Jason, also as far as the Delta Downs race, it was graded, maybe you should take that up with the Graded Stakes Committee.

JS, why tweak it for North American based horses when the European horse(s) (there will be more, I'm betting) will only have to win one low-level race to "earn" a guaranteed spot? Let's just do it lottery style, 20 "Win & In" races, period. Pull the races out of a hat, who cares what they are.

Jason, if there was more weight toward grade ones than grade threes the fans would not get to see the finest 3 year olds in the country. For years the the graded stakes commitee has disrespected other tracks other than those on the east and west coasts. Oaklawn has produced great colts over the years but they still insist on giving our derby a grade 2 ranking. The top tier horses will flee the midwest and go to the coasts and leave our fans with nothing to look forward to.

Yes I've seen that theory floating around for a little while, mirrors another blogger, McBride, the media director of Del Mar and a few others. I also think maybe the committee needs to look more closely at what they actually grade. Theories are fine, I just know I wouldn't want their job. To me it still comes down to the bottom line, it's preferential treatment to create a special race. But that's nothing new.

Sorry for not responding sooner You guys are right, this topic caught me on a bad day however... Go back and read your comments, our race, American horses etc. It came across like you don't want to see any outside horses in the race. It is only one horse in a field of 20. 5 of those don't belong in any year they run it. If some of those on the "bubble" horses ran in other 3 year old stakes everybody would be better served. It's an experiment cut them some slack. If it doesn't work oh well. I got on the fight cause up north we take a more relaxed view, it's not in your face type of thing over your birthplace. So Atthebarn,Jordan,Brad,Whatamidoing and Monica sorry for being somewhat impolite but hey I AM CANADIAN eh!

Wanda, just like you call us your

'homies' we think of you the same way. I think to a person we have said every horse in the entire world is welcome as long as it's the same for everyone. As far as it being America's race, yes it is that, just like the Queens Plate is Canada's race and the first in your Triple Crown. Also, just like you have pride in the Canadian horses, we have that same pride. Nobody has knocked YOU for that.

I think what we are all trying to say here is that we don't care WHO runs in the race. We've never said it should be limited to American horses, just that EVERY HORSE in the race should qualify the same way (graded earnings) or have the same opportunity to qualify (win and you're in). With no Win and You're In races in North America American and Canadian horses both have to run their guts out to try and qualify, especially if they have a couple of bad races and may be really good horses. Have WAYI races in NA too, then go down the earnings list, don't just run one race for Euros for a purse that might not have even qualified on earnings last year.

Yes we do have a sense of American pride, just like you have a sense of Canadian pride.

Wanda,  I just have a quick moment. But I wanted to take the time to respond to you.

I don't think I or any of the rest of the people who disagree with this one race deal said we want it to be U.S. horses only, never read that anywhere. We just don't like a special race being prefabricated for one group, no matter who that group is. America's race? well yes it is, just like the 2000 Guineas is Englands race, the Queens Plate is Canada's race, the Japan cup is Japans race, the Arc is France's race etc that is a simple fact. We never said don't let them qualify for the Derby, not once. But therin lies the rub. Running in one race doesn't qualify a colt unless the race is worth a heck of a lot more than this one is and MOST of the time those big purses draw big horses.  Yes maybe some of the horses don't belong in the Derby, but who are we to dash the dreams of these folks who qualify their colts/fillies the same way as everybody else. In fact some of those that didn't belong, jumped up and won the race or performed better than some of the superstars. This derby dream is what gets a lot of folks into racing to begin with, soon enough a lot of people realize it's just a dream.

The other thing that's kind of lost here is the fact that CDI is cutting stakes purses and races at Churchill Downs, Calder etc. They say it's because of lost revenue over the wagering deal. Yet they have 250,000 to create this kind of a race? I may be getting senile and cantakerous in my old age and I may be in the minority here but that is another thing about this race that rubs me the wrong way.

American pride, absolutely (most of the time anyway). I have to tell you Wanda, from the first time I read one of your comments I had no doubt that you were a Canadian and that you were proud as punch of that. Neve did call you out on that or say it was wrong because that is as it should be.

Katsan The Champion Of Champions is their BC AND THEY DO have one/two trials (Z Wayne Griffith Trials) for Champions race.. to insure they have ALL the contenders....I was only saying thats the way they need to think with these "win & in" races--a good idea!

Matthew,

I understand what you were saying. That was the comparison I was making. We train at the home of the QH Triple Crown so am very aware of how it all works. The trials are what makes it even more difficult to win the QH TC. One bad race in the trials and it's all over, BUT it's the SAME EXACT SHOT for ALL of the horses in that Futurity/Derby Trial. The BC and C of C have one thing in common,  MULTIPLE WIN And YOU ARE IN races. Not just one race for one group of horses, that is only the Derby that is doing it that way, THAT is the complaint we all seem to have. Well most of us anyway.

I'm curious to see the conditions of the race. Like somebody asked, will any horse be allowed to ship over and run?