I couldn't sleep last night and was thinking what they might do if they didn't retire Curlin.

Run him in the Clark. Then run him in another, similar stakes in the U.S..

I agree with your HOY scenario.

Then go back for another try at the Dubai World Cup. A second successful run there would certainly show the world what Curlin is made of.

Then give him a break, with the intent of bringing him back toward the middle of the Del Mar meet and racing him at that meet and at least once, if not twice, at Santa Anita before a third try at the Breeders' Cup. I think that with more experience over the surface and more intense conditioning he could prove himself on it.

Of course, at any point if he had a soundness issue, went too badly off form or wasn't taking to the schedule, he could be retired. But I'd sure like to see him stick around.

Jason,

This will be an interesting blog.

We won't know until the final vote has been counted if Curlin or Zenyatta wins the honor but between now and then I'm sure we'll hear alot of different opinions.

First off I think Curlin should be turned out for a well deserved rest if he's not retired. This is an animal who has travelled the world over and put in a full years worth of racing. We have already seen him go to the Breeders Cup against his connections belief that it was not in his best interest. They sent him there for the benefit of the racing world. He's done enough for racing this year and it's time to look out for the horse. If he does runs in the Clark and faces and beats Commentator yes he's HOY without a doubt but I'm afraid it might be too much in one year to ask and we don't need another disaster.

Zenyatta has done nothing wrong and I wouldn't bet against her chances of winning the honor. In fact I think it would be great for racing to have a Filly win HOY again. The overall class of the boys has been down this year so why not the Filly?

I must say I agree totally with you about the second half of Big Brown's year being a bit of a joke starting with the Belmont. They had the opportunity to seek out much better competition than they chose to face. Only that and a win in the Classic would have swayed me and most others.

If I recall you and others stated in a previous blog that the Breeders Cup is where Champions are crowned. I don't totally agree with that in all cases. However, I do think that in a year where the level of competition is below par for 3 yr olds as well as older horses and you run over a fake surface, you at least had to show up and win or finish close.

Zenyatta VS Curlin for HOY?

Come on people..... I cannot believe this is even a REAL question without laughing.

C-U-R-L-I-N

I think Jess Jackson should do what is best for the horse (which in my opinion is to give him a rest at this point).  They already ran him in the BCC against their best judgement in response to being "petitioned" to running him there.  I think this is more of the same.  It's time to do what is best for Curlin.

Joke? No. Big Brown won the Haskell, and won 'his' turf race as a prep for the Breeder's Cup, nothing more. Had he gone to California and had a good showing, then the Monmouth Stakes would have  looked like the perfect prep race. Having said that, I think the Horse of the Year should be a horse that races into the fall, and as brilliant as Big Brown was early in the year, Curlin deserves the award for being such a tremendous talent and ambassador for the sport.

And Zenyatta? What a wonderful, spectacular mare. When she beats the boys next year she'll be first in line for Horse of the Year.

C-Courageous

U-Uncomparable

R-Relentless

L-Legend

I-Inspiring

N-Noble

Many of you are guilty.  Guilty of letting the connections get in the way of accomplishments.  I guess winning the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby by 10 over any living horse and by 5 in the Preakness is just a every day thing for many of you.  Big Brown dominated like few ever have in the last 30 years and because of a freak accident in the Belmont all of you are willing to throw out some of the best performances by a 3 year old EVER.  According to some of the sheets Big Browns Derby win was better than Secretariats and his Preakness was effortless not to mention he won the Florida Derby from the impossible 12 post at Gulfstream.  All of this is forgotten?  The 3 year olds were so weak this year ? Funny thing Smooth Air and Colonel John finished right behind the mighty Curlin so how bad could they have been ?  I guess the Derby and Preakness really don't matter that much anymore.  I guess winning the Santa Anita Derby and the Travers makes you a average horse now.  Being bitter because the horse had injuries and had to take a different path to the Cup is unfair to the horse that did what he was suppose to do every time he went out... win! You want to give credit to Curlin for beating Wanderin Boy and Past the Point but when Big Brown beats 3 very good older turf horses its just thrown out.  So... if Big Brown had not been stepped on and pulled up and won the Belmont he would be HOY with no question right?  So if he is not HOY now that means you are blaming him for getting stepped on and pulled up against his will.  What can I say.... UNREAL.

How can you expect Curlin to run a fourth race in 3 months?  That horse has got to be exhausted!  I can't recall where I read it, but Jackson has not been seriously considering any stud options for Curlin for next year, partly due to the ownership issue with the minority owners still.  I have a feeling Curlin will run as a 5 yo (remember, Jackson is all for running horses when they're older, according to him), so Curlin will have plenty of time to show us he's the best in the world (in my mind, he already has).  

As for Zenyatta, yes she's incredible but she only ran outside of Cali ONCE, otherwise, her owners & trainers kept her where they knew she liked to run and didn't push the envelope with her at all.  Curlin went to Dubai, Kentucky, New York & California, ran against the very best in the world and other than 2 times not on dirt, won every race he ran.  Curlin deserves HOY over Zenyatta just for the season he's had and the fact that he ran against higher caliber animals then Zenyatta did (the Dubai).  

Again Zenyatta had a great year but STAYED in Calfornia. Curlin traveled, and yes he lost a couple of races on different surfaces (turf and pro-ride). To that end maybe Zenyatta should run on dirt or turf outside Calfornia (it can still be against the fillys).

I also don't think Zenyatta could have held up against Personal Ensign, who had a FAR better record and still couldn't get HOY!!

She was robbed, I liked Alysheba ( and very happy he's coming home)but she was far the better horse.

I believe the HOY is not that simple this year, but Big Brown has to be a part of the discussion. The horse won 4 grade one races, same as Zenyatta, raced in 5 different tracks, wheras Zenyatta raced exclusively in Cali.

Big Brown created worldwide attention, and ranked as one of the best horses by Timeform on their handicap scale.

Curlin's biggest race this year was the Dubai World Cup, a $6 million race. After that, there was no real compettition for him except in his turf race and the BC, both losses. Based on the numbers, he did not really improve from his late 3yo season.

If they do decide to run Curlin against Commentator in the Clark Handicap, he would be beat IMO.

GOOD GOD!! Can we please leave this glorious horse alone!!! Run him AGAIN?? He's obviously exhausted. He's already HORSE OF THE YEAR!! I totally agree with Kat.

Curlin's body of work is superior. The travel, the weight assignments, the attempts on three different surface types despite doubts, the preponderence of wins, and the all time earnings record create a year that again sets him apart from the competition. Curlin is simply the best--he is Horse of the Year.(World rankings showed him at the top all year as well.)

jason    if commentator destroys the clark field with curlin in it can you give your vote to him ?  if no why not ? i respect zito even more for not sending any horses to s/a.the classic was a turf race.the only way to make the breeders cup fair is to have aquaduct put down rubber stuff on their inner track and expand brdrs cup to 20 races over 3 days.i live 12 minutes from turfway and i go there and bet dirt tracks like indiana downs,hawthorne,thistle,and they have good size fields.some of us will never accept the rubber stuff and when there is no more dirt racing some of us will get out for good.i like kip deville but i was happy to see the racing gods are not finished with dutrow yet.wonder what he thought when his 5 yr old got beat by 3 yr old filly

Curlin should never run again on an artificial surface.  He is a true dirt horse.  I hope to see him run again.  This artificial surface suits turf horses.  The only good thing about this Curlin suit, is "it just may keep him on the track instead of the breeding shed."  Mr. Jackson, horse racing needs Curlin to run one more year, as long as he is up to it.

Seven races in 8 months, I don't believe that is too much. Curlin is a dirt horse and that is where we will see his best race. Some horses just can't handle a synthetic track.

I don't believe that Zenyatta is better than Goldikova, the winner of the Turf mile against the boys. If you did not folow west coast racing, you would never know who Zenyatta was until BC day and she did not run a big number to win the Ladies Classic.

Big Brown ran 7 races in 6 months with bad feet and all. It was unfortunate that Kent Desormeaux did not follow instructions in the Belmont Stakes. He tried to rate the horse into submission rather than go to the lead as Dutrow instructed, and then choked the horse down when the horse clearly wanted to run. That was one of the worst rides that I have seen from a top Jock in a major race.

I am hoping that Curlin runs in the Clark against Commentator, because if he can win that race, then it would be easier if he was voted HOY. But, I do believe that Commentator would beat him at 9 furlongs.

Poor Curlin has had to battle for Horse of the Year all year long! Big Brown and now Zenyatta. And not in this blog but I keep hearing that Curlins not been winning as impressivly as he used to against the likes of past the point and wanderin boy. Yeah, Past the point isn't amazing but he was running the race of his life race that day and wanderin boy hasn't won in grade 1 company but he's ran second to some very familiar names. If I recall he wasn't being asked for his best either? Thanks for blogging!

Curlin does not owe any of us another appearance in any horse race.  Listen and observe:  After the Classic, Robby Albarado stated Curlin "got late" in the stretch.  If you recorded ESPN's coverage of the BC races, go back and look at Curlin after the BC Classic when his handlers are pouring water over him (camera angle is from above Curlin), look at him, you could roll an egg down his back!  CURLIN IS TIRED!  He needs a break.  Curlin is a champion and IMO has earned a repeat for Horse of the Year honors.  Curlin doesn't need to run in the Clark H. to prove it.

nay nay,

Big Brown IS to blame for getting stepped on in the Belmont and it was no freak accident. He broke out into the horse next to him and that's the only reason he got stepped on. Those things are an everyday occurence in the world of racing. Make a mistake like that and you pay for it. UNREAL that you blacked out that memory.

I'd have to think that if he had won a Triple Crown that might be enough but he didn't and we'll never know what would have happened if he hadn't spooked at the start beginning his own demise. I seem to recall alot of "blame" being bantered about that he was not properly trained up to the race and whether or not it was a foot issue is not the point. There were plenty who believed he wasn't ready to go the 1 1/2 because of lack of training and would have lost with a perfect trip anyway. Even his jock who pulled him up after being passed by every one of the others said he had nothing left in the tank.

As for Col. John he was racing on the type of surface he relishes and Curlin clearly did not like and still Curlin beat him handily by 2. Smooth Air ran the race of his life and was still beaten by Curlin by 3 lengths. When Smooth Air faced Big Brown in the Fla. Derby he lost by 5 lengths but didn't put in nearly as good an effort as he did in the Classic and you say this was one of Big Brown's phenominal races. He runs the race of his lifetime against Curlin on a track Curlin clearly did not like and still gets beat by 3 to Curlin. He puts in a much lesser run against Big Brown on a speed favoring track made to suit perfectly the Big Ole Browneye and finishes only 5 back. So much for your comparison. Big Brown would have had his chance for HOY if his connections had the confidence to face Curlin and others when the opportunity came along in mid-summer. They ducked the opening and his resume falls well short of where it needs to be. That and the fact he only raced 1/2 of the year cinches it. No HOY for your beloved Big Ole Browneye.

Big Brown is a Big Bust!  Zenyatta only ran once outside California.

I saw Commentator run in the Mass Cap this year - drooling at the thought of Curlin vs. Commentator.  Regardless, Curlin is my choice for Horse of the Year.

I ran my heart out to make over $10 million dollars this year and ran on all surfaces.

I AM HORSE OF THE YEAR!

 Yes, let's give Curlin a rest. I would love to see him in the Clark but think after his campaign this year it would be too much for him or any other horse for that matter.

 I would like to see him get HOY and think he deserves it not only for the races he's won this year but the traveling he had to do. I know I get tired sitting on an airplane for four hours, just wonder what it takes out of a horse?

 I think Zenyatta is an awesome horse will get her share of awards this year and next, provideing she continues to race in 2009.

 As for Big Brown he had a good run for a three year old and will no doubt get Champion Three Year Old Male award this year.

 I loved watching them all race and am glad all are safe and sound, it was a great year of horse racing and am looking forward to 2009.

It all depends on the horse. If he is tired, give him a rest. But if he acts like he wants to run--tearing up the stall, as they say--let him have a go in the Clark. He loves the Churchill strip. Let the horse decide.

Curlin is simply the Horse of the Year. Yes, he lost two races but he has also won more including the Dubai Cup, the richest race in the world. He had been voted the best horse in the world this year in a list of horses that included Raven's Pass, Duke of Marmalade, Henrythenavigator, and Big Brown among other exceptional horses. When is the last time an American horse has accomplished that? In fact,the Breeder's Cup Classic was billed as "Curlin against the world". He had as much, if not more, to do with the Euros coming as the synthetic surface at Santa Anita. Add the fact that he is now the all time money maker in North America, surpassing the great Cigar, in less that 2 years of racing. What else does the horse have to do?

I love Zenyatta and think she is a force to be reckoned with. She' great for racing and her gender. Her record is phenomenal and I look forward to seeing her keep racing. She is without a doubt the Female Horse of the Year in the US. But the Euros didn't come here to race against her, she didn't get any international recognition and she hasn't raced in as many top races. If all you need to get horse of the year is an unbroken winning record, Pepper's Pride should take it hands down.

I am confused by all of you with the excuses for Curlin. He ran his best race at 1 1/4, 1:59 and change. He handled the track, he just couldn't handle the euros. He ran a great race, he tried his hardest and he just didn't win. Please get over it. And Big Brown does deserve consideration for HOY, I just don't think he deserves votes. I think it comes down to Curlin and Zenyatta. She had the best year. And I saw her win on DIRT against the reigning champion mare and win just as easily as she did on the synthetic surfaces(which are not all the same). And if Curlin wins at CD, his "home" track against a a horse who's shipping in from his preferred track doesn't that taint Curlin's victory as well? AND I'm tired of everyone dogging Pepper's Pride, winning 17 in a row is WAY more impressive than the money title, and absolutely harder, winning over $5 million in 7 races is a joke. I think she should be in the mix, she sure is something special. But not as special as Zenyatta, who gets my vote.

Zenyatta and curlin certainly need to be in contention, but, what about New Approach and the filly that won the are she beat the boys and was undefeated. If they are not in contention then we have to name the award "U.S. HORSE OF THE YEAR"

The filly is not one of the greats. Not deserving of HOY. You tarnish the great fillies and mares who won multiple classic races and beat the boys. She is no Miesque nor Rags To Riches.

I'd be satisfied if Zenyatta, Curlin, or Big Brown won HOY. They're all terrific horses. But to knock West Coast racing this year is ridiculous. Curlin would have faced stronger fields in the Pacific Classic and the Goodwood than he faced in the Woodward and the JCGC. After Zenyatta trounced Ginger Punch at Oaklawn, Ginger Punch ducked her by staying back east to beat Grade 3/allowance types in some very weak "Grade 1" races.

Curlin got a huge break last year when the equally good Street Sense couldn't handle the slop at Monmouth. I admire what Curlin has done, but wonder what his record would have been like had Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Any Given Saturday been around to challenge.

one race rags to riches? she beat the best boys and girls in the arc at a classic euro distance and what about new approach.

Thank you Dave!

Dave, I agree with you that Curlin would have had a tougher year had the others come back at 4, but you forgot Rags to Riches, had she not been injured we might be having a whole different conversation. :)

Big Brown's last three races were nothing like the first three because he stopped getting the juice. Dutrow admitted as much when he popped off to reporters.

IF Curlin isn't in need of a rest...and he very well may at this point.....and Asmussen feels he's 100%, then I do hope he finishes his career on a winning note. But personally, I feel he's earned HOTY already for reasons outlined in earlier blogs.  

what about big brown for the horse of the year florida derby kentucky derby preakness haskell, four graded one races. just because he was not in the BC he should not be forgotten. who did curlin BEAT THIS YEAR

Curlin can retire now.  This horse does not need to go out a winner,  everyone knows hes already a winner. The europeans got their synthetic surface they needed and so what, yeah Raven's Pass; he'll be forgotten like yesterdays news soon enough, because that's what he is-yesterday's news. In the future, if they continue to hold the cup on the synthetic surfaces you will see many horses skipping the Breeders Cup as Curlin should have done.  Maybe he should wait until next year and run in the, what is it,  the NYRA Mile or the Cigar Mile,  forgot,  but the race in New York that Ghostzapper ran in instead of going to Dubai,  you know that big big race that Stronach ran Ghostzapper in because he was afraid to face Roses in May on a track that was not speed favoring in Dubai, so they go in a one mile race in New York to show everyone how great he was,  I think Curlin should do the same. If they can give Ghostzapper HOY off only 4 starts,  then Curlin should be a cinch,  hes won 4 races this year;  thats it, he's your HOY.  If 4 starts in a year is good enough to give HOY to a glorified sprinter several years ago, then its good enough for Curlin.  

Dray,

  Get it through your thick head BB is not going to get horse of the year. You say that curlin didn't beat anybody, well he beat better than what brown did. Wanderin Boy earned a higher beyer the JCGC than BB has ever in his life. In the Woodward if he'd been in PP position he would've faded to dead last. If he'd gone in the Travers he would've finished up the track aswell, that the reason the connections ran him against glorified allowence horses after the Belmont. And what horses are you calling very good turf horses, shakis and proudinsky? Well let me see Shakis finished dead last in the BCM and proudinsky finished 23 lengths behind the winner of his next race, and BB beat these two by a desprate neck in a race that was written specificly for him. Curlin has won every dirt race he's been in this year, finished second on turf by 2, and four on the pro ride by 2 3/4. He won in Dubia twice once carring 132lbs, the next winning by almost 8 beating Vermillion, Asiatic Boy, Well Armed, and Primium Tap. He comes back and wins the SF by four and a half, wins the woodward beating Divine Park, the JCGC beating a very good Wanderin Boy(He's better than Shakis or Proudinsky) and became our first ever horse to win over ten mil. BB would loose to Curlin, and will lose HOY aswell, so give it a rest and get it through your thick skull that YOU ARE WRONG!

 Curlin for Horse Of The Year!!  I agree with Tiznow, Zenyatta is no Rags To Riches.  She has been spectacular this year, but in her comfort zone.  Curlin barely touched a comfort zone this year, and when he did in the Stephen Foster it was a runaway.  He has done what no modern runner has ever done in years, and has broken/set mutiple records.  The Dubai World Cup by a record margin and a repeat in the Jockey Club Gold Cup to become the richest North American thoroughbred of all time!  Very impressive.  

 I think it would be great if he ran in the Clark Handicap.  Real racehorses are made to run, not just run once every-other month.  

Go Curlin!!

I have a good idea;  take Raven's Pass,  bronze him, then place him in front of Santa Anita Park @ Oaktree with a sign that reads "The Santa Anita Park Wonder Horse",  hey maybe they can replace Seabiscuts statue with a statue of the great Raven's Pass so that people will remember who he is.  then they can place a statue of Frankie Dettore right next to him landing on his head as he dismounts.

Your 100% correct Jason why argue with people that think a horse that couldn't beat G1 winners all year long and couldn't hit the board in the championship race is HOY.  

The fact is this... 10 years from now when people talk about 2008 they will talk about Big Brown and what he did...not Curlin.

HELLO JASON:

GREAT BLOG AND AS USUAL YOUR OPINIONS ARE INTERESTING. AS MUCH AS I LOVE BB AND ADMIRE HIS CAREER IT SHOULD ONLY BE BETWEEN CURLIN AND THE GREAT ZENYATTA. SHE WINS EVERY DARN RACE AND AS USUAL SOME MANY CRYBABIES ARE COMPLAINING SHE HASN'T RACED OUTSIDE CALIF BUT ONCE. SHE LIVES ON HER ON PLANET,SIMPLE AS THAT. LIKE SOMEONE SAID AFTER HER WIN LAST WEEK,THE OTHERS WERE AT HER MERCY. I'VE BEEN ON HER BANDWAGON FROM THE BEGINNING FROM DAY ONE. I'M ALWAYS AMUSED WHEN SO-CALLED FANS JUMP ON THE BANDWAGON LATE IN THE YEAR,JUST ILLUSTRATES HOW FICKLE MANY ARE. THOSE THAT DOUBT HER NEED TO GIVE IT A REST. SHE WILL WIN HORSE OF THE YEAR. AS FOR CURLIN,I'VE GREAT RESPECT FOR HIM,A TRUE SUPERHORSE WHO SHOULD BE GIVEN THE REST OF THE YEAR OFF.IT'S THAT SIMPLE PEOPLE. I'M A HUGE FAN OF COMMENTATOR,BUT I THINK HE WOULD BLOW BY CURLIN IN THE CLARK,PERIOD!

Curlin in the Clark. OK, but let get Zenyatta in the race too! If she wants HOY let her earn it.

Turf Writer Bill Finley's column yesterday says EXACTLY what I have been saying all week:

"Horse of the Year ordinarily goes to a male horse who had a special year. Curlin's year, by any definition, was special.

The filly Azeri was named Horse of the Year in 2002 and did not face the boys, but that was a year when no male did anything special. War Emblem was named 3-year-old champion and Left Bank was the older horse champ. Both had relatively modest credentials.

Since the inception of the current Eclipse Award format, the only other fillies to be named Horse of the Year were All Along (1983) and Lady's Secret (1986). Lady's Secret defeated males in the Whitney in 1986 and All Along won three North American races against males in 1983.

The closest thing racing has seen to Zenyatta in recent years is Personal Ensign. Like Zenyatta, she was 7-for-7 during her 4-year-old season in 1988. Like Zenyatta, she capped her year with a win in what was then called the Breeders' Cup Distaff. But she was passed over for Horse of the Year by Alysheba, the outstanding male horse to race that year".

"The fact is this... 10 years from now when people talk about 2008 they will talk about Big Brown and what he did...not Curlin".

Draynay...are you nuts?

Sorry but I think folks need to knock off diminishing Zenyatta. First off the races she ran mirror nearly all of Azeri's 2002 HOY campaign and Azeri only left CA once--for the Breeders Cup at Arlington.  Oh rats, pokes a hole in that one.

Her races are on Youtube, go watch them.   The calls from the announcers tell you how easily she was toying with her competition.  "Ears pricked," "Ears cocked," (those two come up with frequency) "poetry in motion,"  "How do you describe perfection? Why try?"  There's more.  Just go watch and drink her in.  She's not just looking good cuz she's facing nobodys.  She's beating all the top competition (except for Eight Belles and Nashoba's Key, RIP) and that competition was arguably stronger than those faced by her competitors for the HOY honors.  The speed figures situation's bogus in part because her running style is such that I really don't see it phyically possible to pull the same numbers you give to horses like Curlin and BB. She just won't be trying to impress you until the far turn.  Deal with it.  Plus human beings get in there and tinker with it--she's got the times and the easy classy victories.  She's fine.

With her lousy breaks and racing style, she should've lost this year any number of times--there's just no way you're like that and you come away undefeated.  Unless you're something truly special.  She's star quality.  What I don't understand is considering Big Brown.  That last race was a joke and the Belmont was just bizarre. I also don't think you reward the one horse of the 3 that couldn't stay sound to save his oats.  I say the two horses that have been excellent all year and showed up in the BC deserve consideration over BB.  Now Curlin doesn't seem quite as awesome as last year and he's actually gone without Winstrol this year.  I think Dutrow and Asmussen got to see what happens when they play fair.  Both horses went off form around the time the Winstrol wore off.

Still, Curlin did an insane job on class alone in some cases and heck he won the DWC and all that cash.  If they tied I wouldn't mind at all.  I hate to see him not get rewarded for sticking around.  Bummer that we couldn't exactly expect Zenyatta and Curlin to both (or maybe even either one) show up in the Clark.  That would be a real championship and against Commentator too.  It'd also prove Zenyatta even more than a championship win on a CA track.

Alrighty, might as well add my side...BB DOES NOT DESERVE HOY. there. Who has he beat? like, nobody. Curlin won against the top 3YO last year. The best 3YO crop to set hoof on track for years!

Also, someone said earlier that they don't think Curlin beat much of a feild in his races. AH-HEM! Dubai WORLD CUP anyone???!!! it is THE richest, and most prestigous race in the WORLD. He SMASHED the competition. he's won what, 6 G1s this year? no, maybe thats 5...but my point is, even when he raced on turf, he was beaten by 2 lengths by a turf specialist. In teh process, he also beat some of the best NA Turf horses in the MOW. He beat Stevi (gotta luv him. he always shows) that is not an easy feat. plus, he broke the earnings record, raced on a dif track every race, AND still won or placed. Zenyatta raced on 3 diff tracks, 2 of them synthetic...Ginger Punch was not herself this year. talented gutsy mare that i've loved from the start.

Curlin gets my vote. If Personal Ensign couldn't win it, how can Zenyatta do it?

Another thing...Curlin only got beat by like 2-3 lengths...He still traveled fast. and that close he did, THAt is the curlin i know.

"Draynay: Give it a rest. It is Horse of the Year honors, not Horse of the Half-Year. Big Brown bypassed the Travers for the Haskell and ran in an allowance race on the turf. It has nothing to do with his connections. As good as he was in the two Classic races, he doesnt deserve it. Period.

jshandler 30 Oct 2008 4:20 PM"

What part of this didn't you get Draynay? HE'S ALSO TELLING YOU TO GIVE IT A REST. Oh so, you're agreeing with him 100% that everyone he said to give it a rest should shut up? That's fine then, so shut up/ give it a rest.

But one last thing and a few questions.

When this year is remembered it will be Curlin broke the all time NA money winning record.

3y.o. Big Brown captured the Kentucky Derby and Preakness.

In the next 10 seconds without looking it up:

IN the YEAR 1996

Which horse/s won the Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont?

Which horse set the earnings record?

Which horse won Horse of the Year?

If you look at it like that, the first question is the one that 90% will have to look up.

The one question that 100% know the answer to is:

Which horse was the last winner of the Triple Crown and what was the year?

You were saying?

DRAYNAY- get a grip mann....Curlin is nicknamed after "big red". just to give you a history lesson, that was Man 'O wars nickname. Curlin the big red. Seabiscuit the little brown horse...No Big BRown...Even rockport Harbor has a nickname. Big Brown will be remembered for his abismal and failed attempt at the triple crown, and that is it. Curlin, will be remembered for his awesome presence and record breaking career...he didn't fail, oh no.

 You go WHATEVER!!! Very good funny comment, got me laughing off my chair. By the way did you see Dettore's first flying leap in B.C.? His knees buckled and almost fell. Ha Ha.

Dray get away you sound like a broken record, and if you want to play the this horse finished off the board game, tell where BB finished in the Belmont, the answer is up the track. Also since i know that your rebutal will be well he didn't finish, mine is well even if he had he still would've lost and the length of the stretch behind everyone else.

Also the only reason people haven't forgoten BB yet is because you the broken record won't stop shoving your oppinion down our throats. If noticed before you actually show up on a blog people only talk about curlin and zen., not BB. So in ten years when you come on to talk about BB everyone will say who is that, that sounds like a stupid name. While a the mention of Curlin or Zen people will say o i remember them, the unbeaten filly and the the Dubia/BC winner by open lengths.

The Curlin camp seems to want to have it both ways.  Zenyatta has only raced outside of California once.  Curlin has ONLY raced in California once.  By the 4 California horses that did hit the board Saturday (to the East's 0), this to me suggests that perhaps the East was a bit weak.  I agree that the Goodwood was where ALL needed to be (Big Brown & Curlin) prior to the Breeder's Cup.  The same California horse that was Curlin's "test" in Dubai took the Goodwood.  See if Culin can beat him again by 8.  Unfortunately for Curlin Well Armed finsished well up the track BC day.  We now expect Zenyatta to go 1 1/4 to "prove" herself.  How about Culin going down the hill on Turf at 6 furlongs.  And as far as ALYSHEBA.  He gets HOY over Personal Ensign because he WON the Breeder's Cup Classic...almost twice (The first time against a former KENTUCKY DERBY WINNER) not some English turf miler stretching out on synthetics.  And as far at winnning 10 million...do some minor adjustments for increased purses since the inception of a 6 million dollar payout, and inflation, on a horse like Seattle Slew or John Henry and see how much they would be worth in true earning power.  Culin is the richest horse by TODAY'S standards with the dollar now worth 1/2 as much as 1980. You could cut that 10 million down to 5 million.

Respectfully I say, Can we stop using the word "great" for these horses. Say talented or good, not great. This word gets thrown around so often to horses, especially within the last 10 years that in my opinion wouldn't even stand a chance to the "great" horses from previous years. When you use "great" for horses, you're putting them into a different league of super horses. Is Curlin even the best horse in the last 25 years? Absolutely not. He got beat by a filly for one, (granted it was his 4th race in 7 weeks, which also proves that he's capable of running in the Clark) and he was trading punches with the 3 year old crop the whole year. Big Brown isn't great either. A good measuring stick for the last 25 years is Holy Bull. Holy Bull would run circles around BB & C. He beat proven older horses at different distances in his 3 year old year and was CLEARLY the best 3 year old of his time. And that was a deep deep 3 year old crop that year. Who are the last couple of horses that have been deemed great. Eight Belles, Barbaro. Granted their deaths were tragic, but they never reached a point in their careers to where we can make that distinction. I don't believe Eight Belles won a grade 1 race... Don't get me wrong. Curlin is a GOOD horse and most likely deserves HOY. He has had a tough campaign. The owners tried a couple of things with him and they didn't work out and he's exceled on the dirt more than any other horse this year. I have to throw this in too. Granted he won the DWC, had to travel and all that. But that was not a great field in there. I think the JCGP was a stronger field than that. Well Armed is a good measuring stick for that as well. BB deserve 3 year old of the year. Clearly the best of his crop, but not great. Zenyatta is an arrears of it if the Moss's keep her in training next year. She's proven against the best fillies of this year. Lets see if she can step it up like Zarkava did in Europe. Now there's a GREAT horse! Let's not overdue what these horses are just to get a point across

Draynay, Big Brown will be an afterthought just like Smary Jones,Point Given, Funny Cide, Fusaichi Pegasus, etc. Remember, Fu-Peg was the most hyped horse of the whole 21st Century! It hasn't even been 10 years yet and no one talks about him anymore. When they talk about 2008 in 2018, they're going to ask, "Who won the derby that year again"? Curlin will be an afterthought too. You can't honestly say that he'll be fresh in people's minds ten years from now as The Bid, Cigar, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Citation, Man O'War, etc... were.

Stand in the middle of the shopping mall full of people and ask them "Do you know who's CURLIN?" - I would be surprised if 5% - 10% would know. But ask the same people if they know who is Big Brown - there is your answer...

Many of the people who I know (who have no idea about racing) know Big Brown but nobody have ever heard of Curlin.

I will first say that I think Curlin is a great horse, but for anyone to say he has raced to much this year are completely insane.  Now maybe not in the last 10 years but look at the horses of earlier day who would at times race 2 times a week or more for most of the year and still kept going.  Are we now realizing that the horses of today are to fragile to do what they was bred to do. Does this strike a note to any of you. Poor babies race once every couple of months or so and if they are that tired then they had better get out of the game.  What has happened to the American horse or should I say the breeders and trainers who have brought the breed down. Now give me a Citation, Nashua, War Admiral etc. and yes even Round Table, those were the horses who dug in all over the country week after week and got the job done. I don't like to be cynical but if they would all take a look at what they are doing to the horse in this day and age then they should all be ashamed of what they have done. As for HOY I am torn between Zenyetta and Curlin and all I can say is may the best horse win.

Whatever:

OMG! LMAO.........

Go Curlin! Yes! And Big Brown, you should also be in there for the HOY...and by the way, Franco,  I wonder how you would feel if you had to run a major race with your shoe flopping and possbilby nails bothering you? Hmmmm...and /Dave, why do you wonder what would happen if Street Sense and Hard Spun were still racing with Curlin?  Same thing as  before... Curlin would beat em!

CURLIN!

That's it!

And to Jess Jackson:  Please retire him.  He has nothing more to prove.  He has earned it and then some!

Curlin and Big Brown are both great horses, and both deserve

HOY, but please let Curlin rest.

He deserves it.

Before the inception of the Breeder's Cup in 1984, prestigious races like the Woodward and Jockey Club Gold Cup served as Horse of the Year clinchers. Curlin would have already satisfied every requirement to be Horse of the Year. Jason...You can't deny the first horse with back to back $5 million plus seasons, the all-time money earner, and a horse whose name has been on everyone's tongues Horse of the Year. You just can't. I love Zenyatta and Big Brown, but sorry. Curlin WILL and SHOULD be Horse of the Year. It's crazy to compare Zenyatta's accomplishments to Curlin's - it's a whole different ball game.

I can't find much to disagree with among you very wise guys and gals. All of you have excellent points to make. I would like to see Curlin as HYO. I am sure that BB and Zenyatta will somehow be honored. They certainly deserve it. I was pleased with the BC this year and I am looking forward to an exciting KDerby given the juveniles we have seen.

Jason, frankly I think the horse that should run in the Clark if you want her to be HOTY is Zenyatta, not Curlin. Let her beat the boys there and you won't get an argument from me. But as I have said elsewhere, it should be Curlin hands down. This horse is special. Bill Finley at ESPN thinks she should have run with the boys to get HOTY too. I LOVE fillys and especially Zenyatta but it would be wrong not to give it to Curlin. He more than deseves it. I would like to hear the reasons you think Zenyatta deserves it over Curlin.

People will always talk about Curlin, but all I want to say is after the Stephen Foster, which was is June, Curlin has not had a start against true G1 or even G3 competition and isn't the same horse as back in June. Also, if Commentator and Curlin somehow meet up in the Clark I would have to go with Curlin because Commentator is streaky and not because Curlin is better. I hope Tin Cup Calice goes to the Clark he would be my pick because he is the only 3 year old colt that can race with older horses, and he looks great on the pace.

Draynay:

AGAIN Draynay: Tell me WHO your beloved Brown beat in an ungraded stakes race that was written for him because he couldn't hack it against G1 turf horses...

And tell me who he beat in a weak Haskell (and has serious trouble doing it)...

"Freak accident" in the Belmont... Give me a break. He didn't get it done that day, plain and simple.

YES, Big Brown had some nice races. HOWEVER, he does not deserve Horse of the Year. 3 year-old of the year, sure. But no way, no how does he deserve HOY.

And right. People won't talk about Curlin 1o years from now. I guess his Dubai World Cup was something to be forgotten. RIGHT.

Get a clue.

10 years from now people will not talk of BB. People will talk about Curlin. HIs record this year as well as his earnings.Curlin will be mentioned with the other 9 and 10 million dollar earners. Why dont you  speak of Zenyatta? Who did she beat? If you think that perfect record is the ticket then there is a horse who won 17 in a row this year setting the record. Perhaps she should be your HOY? She had a great year as did Curlin. In a year where we had an average crop of 3 year olds as well as 4 year olds who stands out?

LDP, good grief, don't say that we'll never hear the end of it.

Tiznow, Jason already said give PP a rest

As for what the'll be talking about in 10 years, it took 12 years to break Cigar's record and they were still talking about him. Like my post earlier said are they still talking about the three horses who won the TC races in 96 except as a reference in breeding? Still don't see Draynay was able to answer my questions and it's been wayyyyy over the 10 second limit.

I'm not going to get into the HOY debate..both sides have good points.

Still, a couple of comments.  I'm amazed at how many people have taken shots at the "Pro-Ride" bias and the edge that it may given the Euros.  I just wonder how many people complain about the "dirt" bias of the Dubai World Cup.  That race is made for the Americans and Godolphin.  Check the records, talk about a bias.

The Dubai World Cup as the 'most prestigious race in the world'.  I bet they love that comment in Louisville, Paris, and Melbourne.

You people are scary. D:

Too many people will fail to see Big Brown for who he is, and the latter half of his campaign was absolutely horrible.

Curlin had a fantastic season, but he didn't fire in the Breeders' Cup. Was it the surface? Perhaps. He did make a brilliant move around the turn. He did run the fastest 10 furlongs of his life. Maybe he's just a tired horse and needs a break. But you can't deny his earnings record or his smashing Dubai World Cup victory.

Zenyatta is perfect. She's not just perfect, but she was perfect against the very best America has to offer. Don't even think of mentioning Pepper's Pride; the two cannot compare.

And the argument against Zenyatta using Personal Ensign? Please. Two very different years. Measure Zenyatta by her accomplishments and the accomplishments of Curlin and Big Brown, not by what's been going on in the past.

Curlin vs. Zenyatta.

As Jason and some of you on this board know... last week I told everyone Curlin would not hit the board.  And many of the same people here claimed I was nuts and that Curlin would win for fun.  Well... guess what? Curlin did not hit the board and I was right.  Now despite getting mowed over by a cute little 3 year old from Europe you want to give him HOY honors.  Lol... each time he faced tough horses this year he lost. The four he beat this year Well Armed, Einstein on dirt, Past the Point, and a 7 year old Wanderin Boy have accomplished NOTHING this year.  Even Tiago beat Curlin and Tiago has only won one race ALL YEAR.  Curlin is no HOY.  Curlin is a lucky horse that won some races against horses that didn't retire because they can't.  He faced tough competition in the Derby and lost, faced tough competition in the Belmont and lost, faced tough competition in the Haskell and lost, faced tough competition in the Man O War and lost, and faced a tough 3 year old from Europe and LOST.  Maybe he can find a race with AP Arrow and Wanderin Boy in it and get back to winning !!! HOY ... ? Tell me you're joking...

Draynay you are so funny. BB best 3 year old in 3o years? now thats comical. Curlin gets HOY. You put Curlin down when he beat one of the best fields in the Classic in 2007. 2008 was a great year for his as well.He has won how much? On how many tracks? Traveled the word over. People will not know big browns name in 10 years. Lets see what the stud fee will be Curlin vs big brown.

The Rock:

"Curlin will be an afterthought too. You can't honestly say that he'll be fresh in people's minds ten years from now as The Bid, Cigar, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Citation, Man O'War, etc... were".

An "afterthought"? You call a sure Hall of Famer an afterthought?

"The Bid, Cigar, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Citation, Man O'War, etc... were".

And lets not forget to add one horse whose accomplishment will never be equaled...FIVE CONSECUTIVE

HOTY's......the mighty KELSO. (or Forego and his THREE consecutive HOTY's)  

Barb

winning 5 million is a joke? I am sure amny people who own horses would not agree with you.

"Curlin is no HOY.  Curlin is a lucky horse that won some races against horses that didn't retire because they can't".  

So we gat an answer to my earlier question...Draynay, you ARE nuts!!!

Honestly Draynay, Get A Grip On Yourself. Big Brown For HOTY? You Must Be Kidding. He Is, At Best, The Best American Three Year Old In A Weak American Crop. Curlin Has Done More This Year Than Big Brown Would Have Done In his Lifetime. Curlin Raced On three Different Surfaces, In Two Countries, Toting 132 Pounds. He Lost Twice, Both on Surfaces Other Than Dirt. A 2nd In The Man' O War Is Nothing To be Ashamed Of! The Breeders Cup, 4th. These Are More Than Many Horses Would EVER Accomplish. You Say Curlin Never Beat Anyone? Maybe This Year He Was Facing Softer Competition Then Last Year, But Past The Point Ran The Race Of His Life In The Woodward, And Wandrin' Boy Is No Slouch. As For Big Brown, He Is Nothing But A Hyped Allowance Winner, MAYBE Ungraded Stakes If He Was EXTREMELY Lucky. He Did Win The Derby, Florida Derby, Haskell And Preakness, But He Had A herd Time In he Haskell, Getting Past Coal Play. Both Wandrin' Boy And Past The Point Are WAY Better Horses. Big Brown ALSO Had Trouble Defeating A Meager Field In A SPECIALLY MADE RACE! Excuse Me For Not Believing In Big Brown For HOTY, At ALL. If He Had Been Born Into Last Year's Crop Of Three Year Olds, He Would Have Been Nothing More Than An Afterthought To The Likes Of Hard Spun, Any Given Saturday, Street Sense, Curlin Or Even Rags To Riches.

As For Zenyatta, She Is A Good Filly, And Her Races Have Been Impressing, But She Has Only Raced Out Of California ONCE, And Never On Any Surface Other Than Synthetic Tracks, meaning That She Hasn't Stepped Out Of Her Comfort Zone. If She Had One Several Graded Stakes On The Dirt Or Turf As Well As The Synthetic Ones, the Maybe She Should Be Called HOTY.

In My Opinion, Curlin Is Far More Deserving Of HOTY The Either Zenyatta Or Big Brown. Curlin Has Done More This Year Than Most HOTY'S Did The Year They Won. I Would Have To Go With Curlin This Time.

Zenyatta was dazzling.

Yet my vote goes to CURLIN and his connections.

He is the kind of horse that people who don't know anything about racing go..."wow, CURLIN's running" and want to watch him race and cheer him on....even if he comes in second and prances back to a standing ovation.Game try.

Maybe next time.

Yeah...does he ever strike a chord in American psyche.

Curlin...Horse of the Year

Big Brown was pretty much dominant this year, and he would have probably won the Breeder's Cup if he'd not been hurt.

Draynay, oh don't even. All of sudden you're saying Colonel John (my favorite 3YO)is a strong horse who flatters BB. This is the same Colonel John that you asserted before the Travers couldn't find the finish line with a road map. Don't even pretend now you think Colonel John is a good horse. Find some other way to prop up Big Brown.

    Dray, Curlin also faced the same tough competition in the Preakness and last year's Classic and won so what's your point.  You can't just take the facts you want to take that substantiate your point and use those, but leave out facts that harm whatever point you're trying to make!

    As far as Big Brown facing a group of tough older turf horses and winning, come on.  Shakis did come back to win the Grade I mile race at Keeneland (can't remember the name of the race), but against the same competition he defeated at the Saratoga meet.  When he along with Thorn Song faced tougher competition in the BC Mile, where did they finish?  As for Proudinsky, one of the other so called tough older turf horses, well he has finished up the track in his 2 subsequent starts including a start at Belmont during the Breeders Cup.

    You say Well Armed hasn't done anything this year?  Well he did beat Tiago in the previous start before the Classic, as well as Albertus Maximus who as we all know won the BC Dirt Mile.  I know, Albertus Maximus came back and beat Well Armed, but the fact still remains that Well Armed has beaten some quality horses this year.  By the way, you probably did say that Curlin would not hit the board in the Classic, congratulations.  You got that one right.  I also said earlier that this would be the year a Euro would win the Classic and I also stated in an earlier blog, that if Curlin were to enter in the Classic, some how, some way Big Brown would not get on the plane for California.  Big deal.  I also stated a lot of things in earlier blogs that did not happen.  However, I do recall you saying that if Big Brown did not win the Classic you would never speak of the horse again.  Well, I know he didn't run in the Classic, but that also means he didn't win.  Stay true to your word Dray.

Barb, I kinda agree with you. Although winning 10 million dollars in a career is indeed quite a accomplishment, half of that came from just winning 2 races. I think Curlin gets alittle flak because he only ran like what? 15, 16 times and winning 11 of them? Only in today's era would that possible. As much as I respect Curlin for doing so, I have more respect for Cigar and Skip Away for coming close to the 10 million dollar mark, and even more for how Alysheba and John Henry  hit over the 6 million dollar mark back in the 80's. Hard to compare eras, but I think those four had to work harder then Curlin did. I feel Curlin had it easy, especially since Street Sense, Hard Spun and Any Given Saturday are retired, which isnt his fault at all, a horse can only beat what's around him. And I cant help but think of the big money earners in their era from the 80s and 90s who had to fight for theirs such as Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Best Pal, Steinlen, Serena's Song, Dance Smartly and Bayakoa to name a few.

i'm going to go with Jason on this one...IF Curlin is sound & happy hook em up & let em roll in the Clark as its the right thing to do for the Horses & our sport...this is the time of year we need to keep the sport in the LIME LIGHT & a race @ the MECCA of Horse Racing with the likes of these two & other reel good ones is GREAT EXPOSURE for US...like we keep saying T-Bred Horse Racing is the best kept sceret in AMERCIA!!!give us all the EXPOSURE we can get...Long Live The Dirt!!!...

Also remember that BB had BALCO on his side but since it was stopped he did nothing much.

I would say CURLIN,ZENYATTA if we classify it as "U.S. horse of the year", else NEW APPROACH and ZARKAVA have to be included!

Draynay; if Big Brown had come up against Barbaro, he would have been crushed. If he had of come up against Street Sense, crushed. If War Pass had of run in the Triple Crown, Big Brown would probably have been defeated. Hes not the best three year old in years. In fact I think War Pass was a better horse, going on his best form. And if BB had of come up against my beloved Henrythenavigator or Ravens Pass he would have been simply destroyed. Curlin has done more than Big Brown ever would have done. He is simply superior. And this is coming from a BB fan.

Draynay,

Stop insulting Curlin and answer people's questions about Big Brown.

(And hey, remember, the horses Curlin lost to in the Derby and the Haskell last year, he came back to beat later in the season... Did those horses go from "tough" to "inferior?")

Answer the Big Brown questions you seem to keep dodging, AGAIN Draynay: Tell us WHO your beloved Brown beat in an ungraded stakes race that was written for him because he couldn't hack it against G1 turf horses... And tell us what the horses he beat have done since then.

And tell us who he beat in a weak Haskell (and has serious trouble doing it)... What have THOSE horses done since then?

That was no freak accident in the Belmont. He did not show up.

The only reason people will be talking about Big Brown ten years from now is because he was the biggest Triple Crown flop of all time.

Looks pretty bad next to the first $10 million horse, huh?

It's too bad curlin didnt race back in the day of the great ones, like Man O War, Seabiscuit, War Admital, Native Dancer, Kelso. These great horse raced every other week or more. Curlin would have been an also ran among that group if you think racing 7 times in 8 months is a hard campaign. The best thing about Curlin's racing career has been his connections ability to place him in races with weak fields all year long. When he ran against stiff competition he more often then not, got beat. Zenyatta on the other hand has beaten the best fillies and mares in the country on more then one occation and on more then one racing surface. She has triumphed over everything she has had thrown at her. There was no war of words between her connections and the connections of other top female horses and she "ducked" no one. Notice Curlins people only decided to run in the Classic, after Big Brown's Injury and retirement. They knew he was no match for Big Brown and showed it all year by not facing him. Granted IEAH was in no hurry for Big Brown to face Curlin. They, IEAH,  always said from the very beginning of the war of words between Jess Jackson & Mike Iaverone, that they would see him in the Classic. It's too bad that Brownie was injured, because I have no doubt, he would have cleaned Curlin's proverbial clock.

I don't have a dog in this HOY hunt, but we need to remember that Big Brown was on drugs when he won the K.D. that he was running against a weak field, and that he set no records, and he blew the "big one"  so I can't understand how anyone can seriously consider him for post season honors.

TvNB

HOY is, as far as I'm concerned, a no-brainer. CURLIN!!!

It's amazing how much support Zenyatta is garnering, a decidedly good mare that I really like, (who doesn't love a good racehorse?) but only once out of cali, never against the males.

Curlin has been the top ranked horse, worldwide, all year, (as of 10/06) including the Euros, based on the type and quality of his races. He's so disrespected here as running against "nothing" yet the "International Federation of Horseracing" says he's the best.

Zenyatta is nowhere to be found on that chart. At least Raven's pass was #4 and Henry was #2. Curlin even was ahead of Zarkava (tied for #2) in the rankings!

HOY is just a favorites contest among the sportswriters. Sorry guys, i love yah, but it's how I feel after last year.

Last year there was no clear cut superior 3 year-old male between the top brilliant few, all year they took turns beating each other in great, thrilling races, but ONE horse beat all of them in the "Test of 3-year-olds", also dominating her own field, BUT because she (oops I gave it away) "gave" 5lbs to a 1200 lb colt, (even though she stumbled at the start and ran how many wide the entire race, dug down and looked 'em all in the eye), she still wasn't good enough to "win" HOY. Even though she beat the HOY.

But, then, who the heck am I?

i think zenyatta should be horse of year shes undfeatted won the ladys classic and facesthe best older mares that we have seen  she deserves to get it and it would be nice to see a filly get horse of the year it has been a long time since one has won horse of year

Draynay - the nay-sayer! I'm tired of you putting down CURLIN - one of the best horses in years.  What has he ever done to you? Remember Dubai? Not exactly nobodies in that race, which he won by a record 7 1/2 lenghts - not shabby, I'd say! As for the "cute, little 3-year old RP", he's a turf horse and not so little; you're belittling CURLIN by belittling his competitors as well! I saw CURLIN in the Stephen Foster in person.  He was dominant against good horses.  In Dubai, he beat the best horses in the world at the time.  You're choosing to mention only the races where CURLIN didn't win! Is that fair? Why don't you try to be fair and remember his feats - which should earn him HOY in my opinion.  BB is a nobody! Ya, he defeated a bunch of weak 3-year olds! Impressive!!!

Too bad his connections never had the guts to face him with real competition! Not a race made especially for him at Monmouth! Ludicrous! Zenyatta would be the only other HOY candidate; but I'm still for CURLIN! Get a grip, be realistic and fair! Stop putting down other fans' favorites - not earning you real respect or liking!

GO CURLIN forever!!!!!!!!!!!

My opinions about this are written on Steve's blog but I have to say...Mr. Jackson, please give Curlin a rest.  He has done more than enough this year, and if that isn't good enough for HOY then something is really off.  You and Steve and Curlin have faced every challenge head on, looked for every possible hurdle to jump, and you're still in question for HOY, so I would say let his body of work stand on its own and give Curlin a big rest and a romp in a field.  Thanks for the great sportsmanship you've given us this year, as well as for challenging Curlin to take on more than any other contender for HOY has come close to facing.  I hope he comes back again next year, but if not, Curlin has given us a consistently great ride for two years, he's made and broken records, and he will go down in history as one of the best!!  

Tiznowbaby ... maybe you better watch the race again because it is because of Colonel Johns big move that Curlin lost like he did.  Curlin moved a little better but had to give it his all to get by him.  When he did he was spent and the closers ate him up.

MAYBE ALL OF YOU NEED TO REMEMBER Big Brown won the MOST difficult race there is with only 3 races in his history which many thought could not be done.  And then ran the most spectacular Derby in history.  His Florida Derby Brilliant his Preakness Brilliant his Haskell Brilliant.  The Monmouth Stakes 3 Graded Stakes winners took him on and they lost.. you want to punish him because no G1 winner showed up but why try to beat the best 3 year old in the world when the Breeders Cup is a month away?  Trainers are not that dumb.  So Big Brown does things no horse has done in 75 years and he is not HOY ??? Maybe all of you need to watch that amazing Derby race again because you may never see a performance by any horse like that again.  

Well, Draynay, I didn't bet Curlin, caused me to lose the super since I had the tri in the Classic.

But he did one thing that BB didn't he came to big day, gave it the old college try. He didn't like the surface apparently. BB's record on synthetic/ Pro-ride was what?

Majella, did you know that barbaro ran the second SLOWEST derby ever?

zenyatta HOY? When did she face a fielt of multiple graded stakes winners?A ginger punch who raced all year and as well as last year? She beat better horses last year than zenyatta ever faced. Goldikova deserves it more than zenyatta and I wont even go cross the pond where the best fillies in the world are.

zenyatta. Faced weak fields all year long. Faced (BC)1 good horse and 2 that should have been retired long ago.The fillies and mares she raced against had a hard time winning 2 in a row even.This division was the weakest in years.

Several people have expressed enthusiasm for a meeting in the Clark between Zenyatta and Curlin to decide Horse of the Year.  Obviously, fans will salivate over this possible matchup, but just like the Curlin-Big Brown one, it won't happen.

Remember, the animals themselves are unconcerned about year-end honors, it's the connections who  want them (or not).  Curlin is not dying for a crack at Zenyatta to put his championship campaign over the top.  

The Mosses have said several times that they are thrilled with Zenyatta's accomplishments, she being their first Eclipse champion.  Shirreffs has said he just doesn't like running females against males.  So I think the connections clearly are not campaigning for Horse of the Year, and will just be deeply appreciative of any votes their filly gets.

Daydreaming about great horses showing up in the same race is part of what makes the game fun, but it is so sad that it hardly ever happens anymore.  Not that I am faulting the Mosses in any way; they are terrific owners just like Jess Jackson.  They have chosen a path for their horse and are sticking with it -- unless they really are playing their cards close to the vest!

Saratoga AJ. I take that back. Curlin will be remembered b/c of the earnings record. I put so little emphasis towards the earnings record b/c the purses now compared to five years ago is so lobsided. I mean by the time the new Meydan Racetrack opens in Dubai, the winner of the World Cup race will already make 6.6 million! It took Alysheba a whole lifetime to get to that point and he held the record until Dubai and Cigar came along. I don't know who makes the rules as far as which races count under the North America earnings scale but Dubai is not in North America. And if you count Dubai, you've got to count every race in the world. You take away the earnings of that race alone and technically Skip Away is on top. Honestly, Curlin ranks about the same level as say..... Pleasantly Perfect. A very good talented horse that compiled a good record,(BC & WC) but not a great horse by any means.

Draynay,

You STILL have yet to answer anyone's questions. I'm beginning to think it's because you know the answers, but don't like them.

"you want to punish him because no G1 winner showed up..." (regarding the Monmouth Stakes).

HELLO?! Isn't that one of your main arguments against Curlin's Woodward and JCGC?

You CANNOT have it both ways. Enough with your rediculous double standard, and answer the questions.

You know what, even if Zenyatta ran against Curlin in the Classic and won it, everyone would blame the Pro-Ride surface for his defeat anyways. So the point that she didn't run in the Classic as to why she doesn't deserve HOY is irrelovant.

Jim, did you know that you're wrong?!?  Barbaro ran the derby in 2:01.36, and Big Brown ran it in 2:01.82. (Oh that's right, and BB got tapped with the stick a few times...Barbaro didn't, and still ran faster!) There are plenty of horses that ran the derby in 2:02's, 2:03's, etc.  Second slowest?  Give me a break.

OK guys we all know that most probably Curlin is going to win it and Zenyatta will finish second.

But, let's take this opportunity and look forward, since we know Curlin has the best performance numbers and he beat the best in the world ON DIRT. But, his numbers on the turf would not e in the top 10 IN THE WORLD at least top5.

We know Red Rocks is good and although he won last years turf we know he is not the best in the world on turf, this the same reason for Raven Pass, I would say both of these would not be on the top 5 or 10  of the turf division in Europe running against New Approach and Zarkava.

We also know that these artificial surfaces favor TURF horses mostly.

We will see the breeders cup favor turf horses again next year, since its at Santa Anita again and there will be more European horses coming here next year.

Hence, I would propose that the HORSE OF THE YEAR be divided into separate categories and later determine who is the  HORSE OF THE YEAR by determining who ran against the est consistently and who was dominating in his or her division.

ROCK, you cannot compare different eras, how long did it take John Henry to earn what he did and he was one of the GREATS

I take it back regarding Barbaros second slowest derby time, but, i now recollect that Barbaros final Eight in the derby was the second slowest.

!! regarding Barbaro's derby if you read the comments in the race chart almost 90% of the horses in that derby had major problem in the running of that race effecting their chances.

Rock I can tell you never owned or raced horses. Curlin no means great? He is a great horse. Just not the greatest off all time. He wont even crack the top 10. Same for zenyatta. It does not mean zenyatta isnt great. She was the best filly this year I think. She gets an award for that. Curlin was the best colt. HOY goes to Curlin. He has impacted his division all year. He was number 1 all year. How many 150-200k races did Curlin run in? How many did zanyatta? Easy as pie.

Jim, My arguement is that people are determining Curlin a great horse by the earnings record. I think it's unfair b/c purses have been inflated so much within the last 10 years alone. I'm just saying that he's not a great horse and that people should stop calling him a great horse just to get a point across to make him HOY. He's very good, but not great. I don't even think he's even in the top 5 of this decade.

Jim,

We already have different categories determining the best horse within their respective divisions. HOY is basically an overall popular vote. We don't need ties in the HOY category just so that no one gets their heart broken. They're all going to be champions anyway. Why is everyone so sensitive that one horse will be voted superior than others? You might as well just not keep score like a youth soccer game. lol. What is this the self-esteem movement for race horses? They don't even know that we're having this conversation! lol. They can care less. All they want is their bales of hay, oats, carrots, and mints and they'll be more happy than a pig in.....well you know. lol

Bradgm since YOU brought it up let me clue you in.

Big Brown is undefeated on Turf, Poly and Pro Ride his winning percentage is 100%

Curlin has NEVER won on Truf, Poly or Pro Ride his percentage is 0 !!!

Like I have ALWAYS said Curlin is a one trick pony.

Melissa... are you new to horse racing ??? Big Brown faced older horses for the first time on turf and 3 of them had JUST WON GRADED STAKES RACES PRIOR TO FACING BIG BROWN.  Now ... Let me share with you Curlin's competition in the Jockey Gold.  Only 2 horses Curlin faced had won their prior race Timber Reserve (a 75k Optional Claiming race) and Merchant Marine who won 75k race at Belmont.NO GRADED STAKES WINS. Ravel lost in a 75k Optional Claiming race and Angelina was 0 for his last 6 races.  You want to compare that to what BB faced ?.... are you sure ???

The Rock:

"I don't know who makes the rules as far as which races count under the North America earnings scale but Dubai is not in North America".

Answer:It's how much the North American based horse made, regardless of where the track is.

"Honestly, Curlin ranks about the same level as say..... Pleasantly Perfect. A very good talented horse that compiled a good record,(BC & WC) but not a great horse by any means".

You know, Rock, you were actually making some sense until you made that outrageously silly remark. There's not a turf writer in the world who would agree with that off the wall comparison.

I just checked the Timeform (European rankings) post BCC.  Curlin is still ranked #1 at 134.  There is a tie for #2 with Ravens Pass and Zarkava at 133.  There is a 3-way tie for #4 between Big Brown, Duke of Marmalade, and New Approach at 132 lbs.  There is a 3-way tie for #20 between Goldikova, Yeats, and Zenyatta at 128 lbs.

draynay      You have to be a joke. big brown  you say  ran the most spectacular Derby in history ? You really said that? I guess Big Red means nothing to you. big brown does not even rate in the top 10 in last 75 years. You are a hoot !!!!!!!

jim,   FYI-Barbaro's final quarter in the 2006 Derby was :24.3; the fastest since Secretariat's :23 1/5 in 1973. You can find it in the Bloodhorse Archives. It's on page 2801 of the May 13, 2006 issue.

Kat,  Thanks for the Timeform rankings--I was wondering about them. Interesting....

Wizard,

When you put everything into perspective, as far as their lifetime credentials and the horses they faced, i'd say they're pretty even. Now Curlin would get a couple of extra points for winning a TC race but PP ran against better quality competition during his campaign (Classic & DWC). They both failed in their repeat bids in the Classic but who would you say lost to a better quality of horses? Yea I know, but Curlin ran on Pro-Ride. But based on the quality of competition that he faced and what Draynay pointed out in the JCGC for example, wasn't that strong, especially given the defeated competitions subsequent starts. Better yet Wizard, how would you rank Curlin within this decade alone?

  OK OK!!!!  Curlin did'nt beat anyone of importance this year. Big Browns Derby, Preakness and Haskell wins were an illusion and Winning Colors, Genuine Risk and Personal Ensign weren't around for Zenyatta to run against. Seems like with all the inferior horses the breeders are breeding now days they should just eliminate HOY and only give awards to the seeminly mostly capable horses in their individual catagories.

Draynay,

No, I am not new to horse racing, and guess what? You STILL have not answered the questions myself and others have presented to you.

re dirt tracks. The US is the only country that races primarily on dirt tracks.  Given the high ratio of run to injury/run to death on dirt tracks why would anyone consider it a good idea to run championships primarily on dirt?  I own primarily national hunt horses and I would never ever consider running a horse on dirt.

Draynay,

One more thing. When facing older horses for the first time, Curlin raced in the JCGC (g1) and won. Hmm...

Lawyer Ron had just come off of two good races. Hmm...

But you're right, a non-graded stakes race against horses who hadn't just won two grade 1 races in a row is more impressive. Yup.

Please.

Rock,

It's how much Curlin accomplished in a very short time. From his spectacular debut on Feb 3,2007 when he broke his maiden by 15 or so lengths, to being thrust into the tough Triple Crown against a terrific 3yr old crop off ONLY 3 RACES AND RACING ONLY 3 MONTHS...to winning HOTY in only 9 months...to what he did this year. $10.5 million in 21 months.

No horse in memory accomplished so much in so little time. As the greatest trainer of our lifetime said when asked to comment on what Curlin did in nine months..."He's not one in a million, he's one in a zillion" Allen Jerkens November, 2007. Enough said.

He will end up in perhaps the top 15-20 of all time. Had he won on that rubber track Saturday, it may have been top 10-12.

And that's if he retires now. A little rest and one last year of racing? We should be so lucky.

Melissa:

"One more thing. When facing older horses for the first time, Curlin raced in the JCGC (g1) and won. Hmm...

Lawyer Ron had just come off of two good races. Hmm..."

I'll say good races...Lawyer Ron tied the track record at Saratoga, running the 9 furlongs Whitney in the fastest time in the 144 yr old track's history in July, and ran the Woodward in almost as good a time in August. Lawyer Ron was in as good a form as a horse could possibly be in when Curlin ran him down in last year's JCGC in September. Remember, 4 yr old Lawyer Ron was actually favored over 3 yr old Curlin in that race.

And don't waste your time arguing with Draynay.

Wizard good post. I think the people on here do not consider that our best retire young. Secretariat would have been retired after his 3 yr old campaign. The money is not in the race its in the breeding shed. We dont have the quality of fields for the most part these days. Horses running today do not compare to John Henry, Kelso, Meisque or Big Red. We loose them all to young with few going on into their 4 year old career.

Ok as far as the HOY debate I feel that Curlin is the best horse of this year and deserves the honors... THIS YEAR. However I do not feel that he is by any means a GREAT horse. He faced one of the weakest older horse and 3 y/o crops that we have seen in years. Yes he won in Dubai but seriously, against who? Curlin would never stand up to the likes of Holy Bull, Cigar, Spectacular bid, Awesome Again, Tiznow, Silver Charm, Invasor, or any of the other great horses of the past 2 decades. let alone againt the likes of secretariat, affirmed, or seattle slew, to name a few. I do like Curlin and am pround of him for what he has accomplished but donot feel he should be deemed "great" As for Zenyatta she is simply a talented mare who ran where she likes to run  over a surface she likes to run on against good mares but not as good as her. She would need to run against the boys, more then once, and win impressivly before I could be comvinced that she is anything spectacular. And dont even get me started on big brown, one of the most overrated horses of my time, Almost as overrated as the not so great Bernardini.

Draynay, don't even pretend you suddenly think Colonel John is a good horse. Since you told me to go back and watch the race, why don't YOU go back and read your own posts before the Travers. Let me refresh your memory: Colonel John cannot find the finish line with a map.

I have always thought Colonel John was a lovely horse. You, however, always thought he was a POS until it suddenly was convenient for you to say he was good. Get over yourself.

Draynay,

"Big Brown is undefeated on Turf, Poly and Pro Ride his winning percentage is 100%"

Just checking... When did Big Brown ever run a race on Poly or Pro Ride?

Never? Thought so. So, that would mean his winning percentage is ACTUALLY 0%. (As is Curlin's, but at least he tried it out).

Rock....I'm not making a big deal about who gets voted horse of the year, but, I want someone to clarify when we in US say horse of the year does that mean US horse of the year or does it cover the whole world.

Because a couple of horses who were just retired accross the pond had better record and even better performance numbers than Curlin.

The Best has to e the best.

but, one thing whoever gets voted horse of the year the breeding price goes way up especially for a male.

Kat..you are right about the time form rating, but, if you check the performance figures, curlin's highest this year is -83 and Raven's Pass is -87(the lesser is better) and although i don't have New Approaches and Zarkava's numbers they are much superior to Raven's Passes numbers.

Jade:

"Curlin would never stand up to the likes of Holy Bull, Cigar, Spectacular bid, Awesome Again, Tiznow, Silver Charm, Invasor, or any of the other great horses of the past 2 decades. let alone againt the likes of secretariat, affirmed, or seattle slew, to name a few".

Are you kidding? Not better than Silver Charm, Tiznow and Awesome Again? His record is better than any of those three, and right up there with some of the rest.And I'll guaranty he is rated ahead of some of those you mentioned when all is said and done.

"The Eclipse Award is an American thoroughbred horse racing award named after the 18th century British racehorse and sire, Eclipse. The Eclipse Awards, honoring the champions of the sport, are sponsored by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA), Daily Racing Form and the National Turf Writers Association who select all finalists at the end of the year. Those same voters then vote any of the three finalists in each category. Winners are announced in January of the next year"

Okey dokey, Jim?

Wizard,

I agree with you! I just loved watching Lawyer Ron's races last year- very, very exciting. At the same time, I was delighted when Curlin ran him down. I've loved watching Curlin since the Rebel.

At this point, I'm just responding to Draynay for sheer entertainment. It is kind of like talking to a wall, though, so maybe I'll stop soon.

I've really liked what you've had to say throughout your posts on here- kudos!

LET GET THE BIG BROWN DERBY TIME STRAIGHT, IT IS THE "RAGOZIN", I BELIEVE THAT IS WHAT IT IS CALLED TIME THAT IS THE FASTEST. I NORMAL TERMS= BIG BROWN RAN 4 TO 5 WIDE PRACTICALLY THE ENTIRE RACE(IT IS ALOT GEOMETRY) AND IF YOU SUBTRACT THAT BY THE TIME HE RAN, THAT MAKES BIG BROWN DERBY THE FASTEST OR SO THAT IS HOW IT WAS CALCULATED NOT BY DIRECT START TO FINISH CLOCKING. SO IF BIG BROWN RAN CLOSE TO THE RAIL THE ENTIRE RACE, HIS ACTUAL CLOCKING MIGHT HAVE BEEN 1:58:87, THIS ALL HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING. BUT THE DERBY RUN WAS AWESOME I AGREE WITH MOST THAT AFTER THE PREAKNESS BIG BROWN TOOK STEP BACKWARDS..CURLIN SHOULD BE HORSE OF THE YEAR.

Let me simplify it for you Melissa.

Surfaces other than dirt Big Brown Undefeated 100% winning percentage

Curlin ...Has NEVER won on anything BUT dirt. 0 winning percentage

And one more thing Big Brown facing older experienced turf horses for the first time...Big Brown wins.... Lawyer Ron ??? LOL Lawyer Ron ??? What Triple Crown races did he win ?  Combine all the Triple Crown races he won and Curlin won and they STILL do not equal the number Big Brown won. HMMMMMMMM.....

Look Wizard. I was there at Gulfstream when he broke his maiden. It was part of that Super Saturday package they held the first Saturday of each month. I even bet him to win @ 2-1 b/c he was the only horse in the field that worked 5f under a 1:01. That's how weak the field was in there considering the fast surface GP has. He won impressively despite drifting to the outside rail that day.I'll tell you what Wizard, if he runs in the Clark against Commentator and wins, I'll give him a little more credit. But throughout his career he's been given the benefit of the doubt in all of his losses. He entered the derby with three races under his belt, he ran 4 races in 7 weeks in losing the Belmont,  He lost at Monmouth bc it was his first time on the surface.  He lost b/c of the turf, the Pro-Ride and if he loses in the Clark, it's b/c they wheeled him back too fast. Don't get me wrong he's accomplished a good deal. But you don't achieve greatness by being given the benefit of the doubt. I'll tell you what though, if they keep him in training and points towards the World Cup where Raven's Pass will likely turn up if they don't retire him and beats him, I'll consider him Great. I don't believe anyone has gone back to the world cup and won any event twice. Maybe even take on Zenyatta while he's at it. Look, obviously  it probably would  be best to just retire him and get him to breeding. But in my opinion, he cuts it as a good talented horse.

But Draynay, the question is still, what is his winning percentage on Synthetic/Pro-ride?

I believe a big bunch of people were saying it wasn't similar to turf, in order to dismiss the European advantage. Oh unless Big Brown was going in the Turf?

Jade You are so funny. You mention awesome again. What triple crown races did he win? You mention cigar who could even beat alw non winner 2 until he got on the juice and after fired blanks.Bernardini Was a good horse and yet you cut him down as well. Silver charm what made him so great other than winning the Derby? Next you will put grindstone in there as he won the Derby as well. Curlin was on top of his game for 2 years. He did things like big brown that horses are not supposed to do. They are good horses. Maybe it was that that cost them in the end.

draynay you continue to be a joke. So if a horse doesnt win a triple crown race like ghostzapper where does he fit in? Let me simplify it for you. big brown was a good horse. Nothing great. Nothing that will be in anyones top 20 of all time. Maybe not even in the top 50.

"you want to punish him because no G1 winner showed up but why try to beat the best 3 year old in the world when the Breeders Cup is a month away?  Trainers are not that dumb. Draynay 31 Oct 2008 11:33 AM"

According to your 100 or so posts over the last few months, we're not only dumb, we don't actually train the horses, how convenient.

Course you seem to be very adept at twisting the facts to support your obsession.

Plus I guarantee folks, he loves seeing his moniker repeated over and over.

Melissa, don't worry he isn't the experienced racing expert he's trying to portray. Ask him when the last time was that he went to the races, Breeders Cup, Derby, Preakness or Belmont and HOW many times he's seen one LIVE. Change of subject or a personal attack is what you'll get.

Here's the facts folks. Azeri lost one race, reeled off 5 straight and never ran against the males. When the other contenders fell by the wayside, got beat in the classic by 43-1 shot Volponi. The Derby and Preakness winner War Emblem came in second by over 200 votes and he fell to his knees in the Belmont, at least got up and gave it a heckuva try for a horse that had to be up front and run on the lead. There were some nice horses, Rock of Gibraltar but no Curlin.

Even though Zenyatta only ran once out of California, she decimated em. For the person that said she was pressed at the BC, no not really she was running easy. Mike only makes them do what they need to do.

Face it she's probably horse of the year unless politics get in the way. Every horse has a resume, hers is just impeccable. No wondering about drugs, shady connections, running half a year, being able to beat G1 or any graded stakes female, no questions about anything else. Nowhere does it say that the HOY should run on every surface and win, she ran on  3-4 because she ran on 3 different types of synthetic and dirt. Whats his name compared Big Browns turf race to Pro-ride or synthetics, we can compare Del Mar to soft turf. There you go she won graded stakes on all the surfaces.

Holy Bull

Winnings: 16 Starts: 13 - 0 - 0, $2,481,760

Won: Futurity S. (G1), In Reality S., Travers S.(G1), Florida Derby (G1), Metropolitan H. (G1), Haskell Invitational H. (G1), Woodward S. (G1), Blue Grass S. (G2), Dwyer S. (G2), Hutcheson S. (G2), Olympic H.

Foaled Jan. 24, 1991.

Horse of the Year & Champion Three-Year-Old Colt, 1994.

Hall Of Fame Inductee, 2001.

Stands at Darley in Lexington, Ky.

Awesome Again

Owner: Stronach Stables

   Breeder: Frank Stronach

State Bred: ON

 Winnings: 12 Starts: 9 - 0 - 2, $4,374,590

At 3: Won Queen's Plate S. (R) (O), Jim Dandy S. -G2; 3rd Travers S. -G3

At 4: Won Breeders' Cup Classic -G1, Stephen Foster H. -G2, Whitney H. -G1, Hawthorne Gold Cup -G3, Saratoga Breeders' Cup H. -G2

Silver Charm

Winnings: 24 Starts: 12 - 7 - 2, $6,944,369

1996:1st Del Mar Futurity(G2,7F)

1997: 1st Kentucky Derby(G1,10F), Preakness S.(G1,9.5F), San Vicente S.(G3,7F), 2nd Belmont S.(G1,12F), Malibu S.(G1,7F), Santa Anita Derby(G1,9F), San Felipe S.(G2,8.5F)

1998: 1ST Dubai World Cup(G1,10F), San Fernando BCH.(G2,8.5F), Strub S.(G2,9F), Goodwood BCH.(G2,9F), Clark H.(G2,9F), Ky Cup Classic(G3,9F), 2nd BC Classic(G1,10F), Stephen Foster H.(G2,9F)

1999: 1st San Pasqual H.(G2,8.5F), 3rd Donn H.(G1,9F), Santa Anita H.(G1,10F)

Champion 3yo

Stands at stud at Shichinohe Stallion Station in Japan

Inducted into the Thoroughbred Hall of Fame 2007

"You mention awesome again. What triple crown races did he win? "

I never heard that a horse had to win a triple crown race to be considered a good horse! So you tell me that Cigar wasnt a great horse because he never won a triple crown race? He didnt even run in a grade 1 until he was 4.

And in all honesty who did Curlin really run against? He won against much weaker crops then the above mentioned raced against.

And dont even get me started on Bernardini, the biggest joke of all he won the preakness after the great barbaro broke a leg, skipped the belmont, won the travers against nobody, won the JCGC against like 3 other horses, one of which was a 5 y/o gelding and the other who was a turf horse that hated dirt. Then in the biggest race of his life, the breeders cup classic when hes Finally challenged by an awesome horse (Invasor) he backs down. He was nothing but a glorified claimer IMO

DRAYNAY:  Love Big Brown all you want and think he is the best horse who ever raced if you want - but STOP putting down all the rest.  It is in poor taste and only results in people NOT listening to you.  There are ways to make a point that will be heard but you are going about it in the wrong way!  We all have our favorites, but the way you express it makes all the difference.

LOBIEB:  Who said today's horses are too fragile to run often? The people writing here are requesting a rest for Curlin but his connections have said nothing to that effect.  So now he's fragile because some of his fans think he's done enough for the year?   Today's horses are being managed differently than those in the past but that does not mean they are not capable of doing more. They just aren't being asked.

THE COLONEL: Curlin was a "tired" horse in the Breeder's Cup but he ran the fastest 10 furlongs of his life....?  That is an oxymoron isn't it?  Fact is he got beat by two top turf runners on a "turf playing" course which is the only reason those horses were even entered, and by a horse who was accustomed to the track who he had already beaten before.  In addition, there seems to be a good possibility that he wasn't in condition for the distance based on his short workouts and the suggestion by many trainers that synthetics requires a bit more "bottom". That would certainly not be his fault however and not a reflection on his quality of ability.

Draynay,

Triple Crown races are not the only races that are important. It does not matter that Lawyer Ron did not win any of them. He improved with age, and gave us two very exciting wins in the Whitney and the Woodward. I'm starting to enjoy the later half of the "season" more.

I'm all set. Neither of us is going to convince the other of the merits of the other's favorite horse, so I'm all set. It was fun while it lasted!

I do have one question for you though, and this is just out of curiosity- how do you feel about Big Brown's future in the breeding shed? If I owned horses, I wouldn't send them to him- his bad feet scare me.

Just curious!

Atthebarn2 are you a trainer? Does that make you a handicapping expert?

LOL... Jerry Bailey should know something about the sport but he picked "PYRO" to win the Derby ???

Jason PLEASE do me a favor... the next time ANY trainer runs his mouth about his horse or gives you some typical response ask him this simple question. "How much are you betting on your horse to win?" Trainers are not dumb they are just not experts at handicapping. Ask Asmussen how much he had on Curlin to win... let me an for you not one red cent. NOTHING, Nada, ZERO.

This is the last thing I will say about Zenyatta. Like Curlin she has picked her fights carefully but you don't win HOY by hanging around California.  Unless you win at Saratoga, Gulfstream, Belmont, or Churchill you are just a one state wonder.  If you are a real champion step on the tracks that have made real champions. And like it or not on surfaces other than dirt Big Brown is undefeated and Curlin is winless.  Truth hurts.

ZENYATTA VS CURLIN IN THE CLARK ?  INTERESTING SCENARIO, BUT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME HE RAN AGAINST A FILLY ? GRANTED, RAGS IS NO ORDINARY FILLY, BUT SHE WAS DEFEATED AND ZENYATTA ISNT. AS FAR AS HER BEATING NO ONE IN THE LADIES CLASSIC, YOU BETTER LOOK AGAIN, I BELIEVE GINGER PUNCH WON AN ECLIPSE AWARD LAST YEAR.

Hmmmm...could the reason be that some of you say that Curlin or Big Brown didn't race against or win against any horse of importance this year....could it be that most DID NOT WANT TO FACE THEM?  Hello?  Also, let's talk about the racing surfaces...dirt is the all-natural, however, let's get real serious....it really isn't the surface so much as it is racing them before their leg bones have fully developed enough to take all the strenuous stress at too early an age. And now on another subject...what do you mean Big Brown was awful the last half of his career...he won everything except the Belmont and the jockey knew something wasn't right with him.  Have you ever run with a broken or loose shoe flopping with nails possibly gouging your foot?  I guess you are referring to the one big race, the BC....you know the one...the one he was not able to race in due to injury?  Go Curlin!  Go Big Brown! You two are the best in my book!  

I'd rate Big Brown in on the War Emblem level. About the same in accomplishments and quality.

Both won the Derby and Preakness, and got totally embarrassed in the Belmont ...won the Haskell, but not much more. Both finished their careers with about the same purse winnings, close to $3.5 million.

Good match!

If I recollect "HOTY" should be a horse who has run against the best consistantly and dominated his or her division. It doesnot mean you run only on dirt or turf or artificial surfaces.

Draynay, If you don't know the answer to your own question those steroids you took did affect your brain. We've butted heads on here off and on for 5+ months and I've made my status perfectly clear. You on the other hand, never have. You blab and bluster but never really say what your connection is or if you're just a malcontent.

Like the one guy called you a neophyte, which in his point of reference has NOTHING to do with the religious connotation.

YOU made the reference about trainers in respect to STRATEGY, not handicapping. Maybe placing a horse in the correct spot is partly handicapping but considering you never know exactly who you're running against until the overnights come out and then the final entries, the condition of the track til race day, you're only handicapping your own horse against a bunch of phantoms.

I stated on my picks for Friday, that I'm not a handicapper because I don't study horses not running in a race against my own.

What we do is train em the best we can, try to have them ready to run, place em in the right spot, send em over and let em run.

We might try to strategize once we're in a race and figure out what the others MIGHT do and what we need to do to offset or maximize our own.

My picks on Friday actually did pretty well and I cashed a few tickets. I'm not a big bettor only do it once in a while. If you do this every day, you can't beta lot because there's too many variables and betting 5-6 days a week isn't healthy, in my opinion.

I didn't see you going out on a limb or even stating your picks.

Actually Mr. Handicapper, I've never seen you pick without riding on another guys shirttails.

Those handicapping guys emailed me a picture of them holding their winning tickets on Desert Code and their tri. Did you even actually place a bet?

The reason it's called GAMBLING is because even though you can be in the handicapping Hall of Fame these are animals that have other animals and humans around them and THAT is why nothing is ever a 'foregone conclusion'.

If you recall, I never said I loved Curlin, never said I was Steve's biggest fan (in fact said I was disgusted at his suspension and the fact that Scot kept the money flowing then turned the barn back over to him when he came back as well as being upset about the last drug positive). However, the guy has run nearly 2500 races this year if he bet on all of them he'd be in the negative, not counting the cost of running an outfit that big.

My point about Zenyatta is what the buzz and gossip is. Course these voters can say anything, then do the opposite.

Just like I told that Melissa, you never answer a question you just attack and try to turn the tables.

The problem with you is you forget or choose to forget what you wrote in black and white. But we can read and that's why at least 80 percent of the people on here think you are irrational, obsessed and uninformed.

I just don't understand where you're coming from on the trainer, handicapper deal. Big Brown HAD a trainer, because he bragged that he bet 100 g's on St Liam that makes him a better trainer? Some guys bet like that and some guys have hit big scores, they don't brag about it. I choose not to bet much.

I just don't get what you want. I gave BB credit for the half a year that he ran well he deserved that. Okay, here's what we'll do.  Big Brown Horse of the Half Year- HOHY, happy now?

No, I'm sure not, here comes another round of off point remarks and a reversal in direction.

p.s.

me I'm outta here, I've got a job to do and mine actually does involve the subjects at hand.

As for you, I'm sure you have to go place ALL those bets and collect ALL those millions. By the way, is there even any place for you to actually go bet or watch a race in person?

linda you made some good points, but, you are dead wrong where racing on dirt, turf or artificia l surface doesnot make a difference.

some horses run better on turf because their physical profile fits turf racing.

there are some horses who can hardly stand on dirt(just an expression used y some trainers) but are very good on turf. And vice versa

Just want to say hey there to my buddy Atthebarn.

Here's a heads up,why does a trainer have to bet his horse on race day? That's a silly argument to use.I know lots of guys that don't bet their horses and guys that do. SA gets his PC from all his horses that win, do you think the guys hurting for money that he has to gamble for it? I guess some people think they can make a living at it but I doubt it in this case.

NO, NO, NO - It's CURLIN.  No one accomplished as much as he did. Love Zenyatta but she can get it Next year.  Also, hope Curlin does not run in the Clark as my heart is with Commentator.

Some of the arguments on here are kind of off base. Talking about who horses did or didn't beat last year. Horses that ran what some on here think to be exceptional races, well those races were from January to mid-May. It's not horse of last year or horse of the first 5 months of 2008. I'm hopeful that the people that actually do vote, weigh their decisions a little bit better. I think they usually do, they've gotten it right most of the time.

Hey Posse! Just read Atthebarn's comment about the e-mail to funny! Sounds like you guys had a great time.Just catching up on everything cause my computer had gremlins or something in it.I'm like Att I can't figure out whats "he who we do not name" stake in all this.I mean at the end of the day it means nothing to any of us. We are just chatting for the sake of chatting right? It's not a be all or end all. Again and again we have made no negitive comments about the horse quite the reverse, if I remember. So where does this all come from I ask you. At the end of the day it's just a award given out to people we don't even know. Do you get what I'm saying?

Saratoga AJ writes:

"I'd rate Big Brown in on the War Emblem level. About the same in accomplishments and quality.

Both won the Derby and Preakness, and got totally embarrassed in the Belmont ...won the Haskell, but not much more. Both finished their careers with about the same purse winnings, close to $3.5 million".

AND GUESS WHO GOT HOTY THAT (2002) YEAR? AZERI BECAUSE THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF WAR EMBLEM WERE DEEMED NOT GOOD ENOUGH BY THE TURF WRITERS. SO WE HAVE A PRECEDENT AND THAT MEANS ZENYATTA SHOULD GET HOTY OVER BIG BROWN, BUT NOT CURLIN!

So I predict that's the way the vote will go...1) Curlin 2)Zenyatta 3)Big Brown.

Atthebarn... I am a racing fan and handicapper.  Are we in an argument?

Since you have joined me and agree Big Brown is HOY there is nothing but love for you on this side....

I HATE TO DISAGREE WITH JADE AND SARATOGA AJ, BUT WAR EBLEM TO THIS DAY I KEEP ON WONDERING HOW HE WON THOSE TRIPLE CROWN RACES, PLUS THE CLASSIC HE LOST TO VOLPONI IN ONE OF THE SLOWEST CLASSICS EVER. PLUS BERNARDINI WAS AN AWESOME HORSE, JUST THAT AGAIN A JOCKEY WITH TOO MUCH CONFIDENCE PULL THE TRIGGER TOOO EARLY AN LOST TO A VERY GOOD HORSE IN INVASOR. WE ALSO CONTINUE TO QUESTION THAT CURLIN BEAT NOBODY, BUT IN ONE OF THE DEEPEST CLASSICS EVER HE RAN LIGHTS OUT AND JUST GOT BEAT BY A VERY GOOD HORSE IN RAVEN'S PASS; EVERY ONE LOSSES ONCE IN A WHILE, WE ARE JUST LUCKY TO REMEMBER THIS YEAR IN YEARS TO COME, CURLIN,BIG BROWN,RAVEN'S PASS,DUKE,HENRY,COMMENTATOR ALL PRETTY TOUGH AND GOOD HORSES BUT CURLIN IS THE BIG HORSE IN THE PACK, STILL RANKED #1 ACCORDING THE THE TIMEFORM.

Draynay, I love BB too but he should not be HOTY. Best 3year old though. Curlin is HOTY to me. Atthebarn is right. I do think he knows what he is talking about. He is in the business and that counts for a ton. Although we are all entitled to our opinions, his opinion comes from a unique perspective compared to most of us.

I find it amazing but not unbelievable that Draynay would make such a comment that in 10 years people will still be talking about Big Brown but not Curlin. Here is the fact Draynay they will be talking about both first will be the fact that Curlin made over 10 million and the other how Big Brown was pulled up in the Belmont. That is what people will remember. And as great as I think Zenyatta is I feel due to his wins outside this country along with the weight carried in those wins and how he did upon his return to the States that Horse of the Year should go to Curlin, you cannot overlook the 10 million won either. Curlin is simply a great racehorse and will be remembered as such 10 years from now.

No, I'm not arguing. I don't usually argue with a computer screen, however I do believe you do.

You actually are only HALF right. I gave your horse the benefit of the doubt and gave him Horse of LESS than HALF a year. Half the Eclipse,you guess which half. Keep the love. Love yourself and take that whatever way you want.

Still didn't answer my question with any validity. Just want you to know in my spare time I'm an investment banker and International Financier.

Miss Wanda, I wondered where you were. Also, Monica, heard some from her on here before not too much now. Probably like the rest of us, getting more enjoyment out of beating our heads against the wall. I have a brick one at home that comes in handy.

Yes the boys had a good betting weekend. Brad seemed a little worse for the wear. I guess the coach at his school who is the inspiration for Midnight Lute's name retired unexpectedly then they said he has health problems. He was upset if I heard that once I heard it 50 times, and read it on here. Paul Weitman one of the owners is from Tucson, named the horse. They mentioned it on the telecast I recorded. It must have helped their betting because I guess they used some weird ways to bet, that's how they had Desert Code, some convoluted connection. They are a riot. But a 10g super with Curlin a #2500 tri tells you how weird it was. I think the pick six was 55 thousand. I had to laugh at Watchman and Carrothers talking about how it wasn't that odd of a day, they each had 1 winner I think.

Somebody who was out there told me that track was hot. I thought it had a bias, come from behind, only one horse was up close.

On the %, yep that's how Steve and everybody else makes their money.

Paula, Thanks, but your and everyone else's opinion is just as valuable because it's YOUR opinion. It's when it becomes haranguing a point to death that's when it just becomes pointless, obsessive and irrelevant.

Atthebarn2 can you name some of the horses you currently train or is it a secret?

Jason, Curlin is exhausted.  He doesn't need to run again to make HOY, when he has already done enough.  Zenyatta didn't beat the boys, she didn't face the boys and BB after the bid for the Triple Crown ran against pitiful competition rather than go & face Curlin at the Woodward or JCGC where it would've been ON DIRT and a much better race than the BC Classic.  BB doesn't deserve HOY, Zenyatta doesn't deserve HOY, Curlin does.  He's travelled to Dubai, won 2 races there, came home, raced in Kentucky & won the race, raced in New York and won 2 dirt races and placed in a turf race against a former BC Turf winner, travelled to Cali immediately following his JCGC win and ran on a surface that he hated and ran well considering he didn't relish the surface and came in 4th against some VERY tough competition.  I was disappointed that he lost, but I will happily say that Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator and Tiago ran their hearts out that day.  Curlin had a hard season, when you consider the weight he was expected to carry, the distance he has travelled and the fact he was running on surfaces he didn't like.  Zenyatta travelled only ONCE out of Cali, otherwise running against the same horses all season and beating them continually and on the same type of tracks.  The only time a filly has won HOY without facing the boys, the boys didn't have a strong contender for the honor.  Otherwise, they have had to beat the boys and Zenyatta didn't do that.  She definitely deserves older filly & mare, but not HOY.

I could but I won't. Stated my view on that from day 1.

Rechelle ??? Curlin has done enough?

Hasn't Big Brown done enough ?

People have been saying how bad this years group of 3 year olds are but answer this.  Where did Fairbanks and Student Council finish in the Classic compared to Smooth Air and Colonel John ?  So what was weaker the older horses Curlin faced or the 3 year olds Big Brown faced?  I think we got the answer in the Classic.

Jason I have a two part set of  questions. I know you said it was a longshot at best for Curlin to get your vote, but say he does run in the Clark. It would have to be a stellar field that he beats to get your vote, is that correct? Just a bit of clarification.

Second part. You may have said this before and I may have even read it but when is the deadline for the votes? Are all of the category winners known in advance? My fading memory tells me that HOY is not known ahead of time.

Also, do you think there's enough of a difference of opinion to make it a split vote?  Just kind of curious about what your fellow voters are saying. I've been reading and hearing that like you, most are leaning towards Zenyatta, if Azeri could do it in 02, then it's distinctly possible for the Z.

One thing I forgot to say. You're correct about Curlin being exhausted. I think Steve A just said he didn't like the surface. They can train on it great but that doesn't mean they'll like it in the afternoon in race conditions. I think THAT is the biggest thing they need to overcome with the synthetics. Getting it to be consistent from morning to afternoon. Like another trainer said, either they like it or they don't.

Dray,

  you cannot say we got to see which class of horses( 3yr old males or older) are better in the classic when some top three yr olds show up, but the only real NA horse that was supose to provide curlin with some challenge, Commentator and some other did not, show up for the Classic. We all know student council doesn't like coming off long layoffs, and Fairbanks was a last minute entry, when he found that the speed in the classic was lacking. Colonel John loves synthetics so of course he's going to run well, and Smooth air ran the race of his life to finish were he was, plus we all know smooth air likes turf since he did win a turf stakes beforehand, and doesn't turf form translate well onto synthetics, the answer yes. Also Well Armed, who flopped for whatever reason in the mile, but has performed well all year was taken from the classic, Go Between had an unlucky trip. My point is you can't judge the class of two classes based on one race. The reason, because you may not have the best of one group in the race, while you have the top horses from another group. This is why we judge groups year round not by one race.

I think the jury's out on whether Curlin likes Pro-Ride. He still ran a great race in the BC and it took some top ponies to beat him. I like Haskins comment on the way he runs. He may not be as good with his running style on that type of surface. There was a comment about him training on it over a period of time and I think that could be the way to go. He's a pretty smart horse and has run on all types of surfaces this year. A dirt surface can be very differint at certain tracks. It isn't all just dirt.

Jason, thanks.

I think you could run for political office, that last comment was great. Loved it. I don't forsee there being a 215 point difference like when Azeri won it. Curlin and Zenyatta are obviously the front runners.

BB may get a brief mention, but an immediate dismissal from the people who do the voting, from what I've seen and heard.

Here's another thing that we're waiting to get past so we can move forward and beyond all this, look at the next crop coming up.

Don't think it did BB any good when they did the updated HBO Bryant Gumble special, talking about Dutrow, Steroids etc. Then when the states started banning them it just gave credence to what the non racing public and casual fans thought. That the steroids did affect BB's performance.Right, wrong or indifferent on the subject THAT IS what they saw and I don't know that the industry wants to alienate them further.

The championship "proving groung" is The Breeders Cup--not Dubai! Team Curlin traveled more than Zenyatta because they choose to, and that doesn't deminish anything Zenyatta did on the track! When Alysheba won HOY over Personal Ensign, his award was contingent on a VICTORY in The BC Classic--not a 4th place finish! DO NOT diss this great mare! She went out to Oaklawn for her FOURTH start, VS THE CHAMP GINGER PUNCH, in her first DIRT start, and won by FIVE (widening) lengths---AND THEN she got better!! Do NOT place Dubai over Breeders Cup in matters of importance! And, NO, Jason, no I don't think a win in The Clark knocks off Zenyatta as the Horse Of Year! Zenyatta showed up and did her (spectacular) think again and again and again---some people don't see that and to those people I don't write this! I'm writing to those who sawn and loved these three horses in '08....Big Brown, Curlin, Zenyatta....my HOY rankings: #1 Zenyatta--for a finishing gear not seen in the annals af Filly/Mare Turfdom...#2 Big Brown---The best horse since Spectacular Bid, would have trounced Curlin and all the rest....#3 Curlin---worthy of HOY on MOST years but no better than #3 here--was very UNspectacular since Dubai/blame Team Curlin for horse's late-season flounderings....

Draynay you're absolutely right that in ten years Big Brown will still be on the minds--Curlin will too--but as the great sire he portends to be---but Big Brown will always be remembered for that Florida Derby/Kentucky Derby "Wonder Double"...that's something Curlin never even aproached--that kind of class is rarified air, that's why I compare him to Spectacular Bid, who was the best horse I ever saw personally...Curlin was great/if not spectacular! Long live Curlin! But Big Brown! His name is smoked deep into the cracks of This Great Sport!

Hey there Wanda,welcome back. Computer problems eh? I have a great avatar of a stick figure beating on the computer til they're bloody. I can just see a lot of us doing that as we respond to different people on here. Saw Lord Voldemort (he who must not be named) doing just what Atthe said he would, answering a question with a question and evading.

You're right the pro ried on BC day seemed to be one big run from the back. Curlin is a grinder, didn't suit his style. Steve did say he trained on it well but just like a lot train on synthethic well they don't race on it well. I've heard a lot of them say it was favorable to turf horses or those who have run on it and those weren't trainers making excuses. One guy didn't need to, he won on it.

LDP... My point is simple don't tell me the 3 year old horses were weak when Colonel John is a Multiple G1 winner on multiple surfaces and Smooth Air is a multiple stakes winner on multiple surfaces and beat many of the older horses Curlin has been facing all year.  Both Smooth Air and Colonel John have already done something Curlin has not and will never do... win on surface other than dirt.  Curlin beat both of them by 2 in the Classic.  Maybe you should go back and see how Big Brown beat them in the Derby. So please please do not tell me how Big Brown faced little competition when you can't acknowledge that Curlin faced older horses with even less talent. 

Did anyone read the Blood-Horse article from the veterinarian about the effect that synthetic tracks have on horses that aren't used to them (9-27-08)?  That may be the answer to Curlin's performance as well as why some horses seem to work well over them in the beginning but not race well when the time comes.  According to the article it may not be the best decision to switch back and forth between surfaces as the changes to the horses muscles and the increased tension can be very problematic.  Just a thought....?

Jason, does it say ANYWHERE in the guidelines for selecting or nominating HOY that the horse must have won on other surfaces?

If that is Draynay's criteria then you'd have to start nominating horses who have done that whether it was in glorified allowance races like the Monmouth or whatever.

That criteria of various surfaces in graded company ONLY says the logical choice has to be Zenyatta, plus she was undefeated. Does he really want to paint himself into that corner.

Like Alex JH said. This isn't something that we on this board for the most part are looking forward too anymore. We're just looking forward to getting past it to move on and away from it. Face it Big Brown is the Kentucky Derby/ Preakness winner be happy with that.LOTS of horses have won those from difficult circumstances list him with those accomplishments. YOu aren't campaigning for the horse. No one is going to get on stage and accept the award and say 'most of all I'd like to thank Draynay for his contribution." more like "I'd like to cuss Draynay out for alienating so many people who USED to like our horse."

Like ATT said, you're burning daylight get to the track and lay your bets down.

Draynay, you yourself already said the 3YO crop was weak. AGAIN, let me refresh your memory. Before the Travers you wrote that Colonel John could not find the finish line with a map. Those are your true feelings about Colonel John. Now you're trying to use him to prop up Big Brown.

So if, Colonel John has won G1's on two surfaces and (according to you) that makes him more accomplished than Curlin, then by your logic Colonel John is more accomplished than Big Brown (who has won G1's only on dirt).

WHEN WILL WE KNOW IF CURLIN GOES TO THE CLARK OR JAPAN CUP? BETTER WHEN IS THE DEADLINE FOR ENTRIES FOR THOSE RACES?

Clark HCP closes Nov 15th.

The Japan Cup, the only thing I could find on it was a nomination for stating 10/14 but that might be their preliminary entries which had qualifying factors.

Had a quick moment to look it up JCup dirt 10/14/2008

Clark still 11/15

Jason, I believe that Curlin has done enough to be voted HOTY, he has nothing more to prove.  He has had two straight gruelling seasons with par excellence performances and should be rested.  

Big Brown has fallen short of beign HOTY perhaps because the connections failed to take a shot at Curlin in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, leaving everything for the Breeder's Cup Classic ...big mistake on their part.

Zenyatta, brilliant and undefeated as she has been also falls short of HOTY this year because she has never really left her comfort zone of Synthetic surfaces and facing Fillies/Mares only.  In a year when Curlin has 'been there done that' with respect to campaigning at the twin-summits of Thoruoghbred racing: The Dubai World Cup and Breeder's Cup in the same year, how can she compete with him for HOTY?

I rest my case.  

Curlin's Beyers indicate he, as well as Street Sense and Hard Spun, would all have beaten BB in the Derby and Preakness. The times of the races were faster too. Big Brown was a good horse in a very bad crop of 3 yr olds. I stand by the earlier comment.....substitute the Illinois Derby instead of the Florida Derby, and his 3 yr old campaign was no better than War Emblem. They won the same races, bombed in the same, and won the same money.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Big Brown to be voted into the Racing Hall Of Fame. I GUARANTY Culin makes it in his first couple of years of eligibility.  Big Brown will take 20 years or so, if he goes at all.

War Emblem should beat him there! LOL

I agree with MathewW.  Big Brown was the fireworks this season.  He came on the scene like gangbusters and made the first and middle parts of the year so interesting and memorable.  For me, 2008 was all about Big Brown (and Eight Belles), and BB's very peculiar attempt to win the triple crown at Belmont.  Having said that, if I had a vote for HOY it would go to Zenyatta, because a perfect season without stubbing a toe or having an off day, should be rewarded.  That brilliance and dominance is rare.  In a year marred by a wonderful filly dying running her heart out to get second in the Kentucky Derby, maybe it would be appropriate to award the HOY honor to the perfect filly Zenyatta in Eight Belles' honor.  I think Curlin, although I love him, has been hanging by a thread for a while (since Dubai).  Either they should refresh him and bring him back to race next season, or retire him to stud after all the legal smoke clears.  Which ever of the three main characters wins HOY, I won't complain, unless it is for the wrong reasons (sexism, politics, or east coast bias).

THANKS ATTHEBARN, HOPEFULLY HE SHOWS UP IN ONE OF THOSE,CURLIN IS GREAT FOR THE SPORT.

Look instead of attacking me how about addressing the facts... Big Brown faced tougher 3 year old horses than Curlin did older horses.

The first time ALL YEAR Curlin faces G1 winning 3 year old horses and HE LOSES !  I point out that Smooth Air, Colonel John, and Big Brown have won on more than one surface because it shows depth of talent.  Curlin is a 1 1/8 dirt horse and that is it. Lots of horses have won 2 Triple Crowns ?

Well... let me give you a little homework ... how many in the last 100 years have won 2 Triple Crowns or more and won the Haskell too. The great Alysheba could not do it so you can scratch him off your list. Just so you know NO HORSE in history has ever won the Florida Derby, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and Haskell in the same year...none! AND only one other Derby winner has EVER been able to win the Haskell and that is War Emblem. Since Alysheba was unable to win at the Haskell many avoid it thinking its too early to bring a horse back after the Triple Crown races.  Just ask Curlin.

Jason, 2 straight gruelling seasons as a star performer among the best thoroughbred competition means that the horse does not need to run in The Clark, which is the subject of this blog.  

Also earnings record is a significant feature of the sport and any horse that breaks the record in their generation is not one to be ignored when comparing accomplishments in a close battle for HOTY.  The fact is that no ordinary horse can accumulate such earnings in one or two undistinguished seasons.  

Zenyatta is not being penalized, she simply does not score enough 'points' to topple the reigning HOTY Curlin.  Face up to it Jason.

Zenyatta runs as if she's in her own race, and that can't be denied....that's greatness....

Thank you God, or at least Jason in this case.

All you horse lovers out there, please excuse this but talk about beating a dead horse, geez. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH with reiterating and dramatizing every horse that has run in the LAST 100 years.

We have ZERO control over which horse wins HOY or any other award for that matter. ONLY if YOU are a VOTER like JASON and presumably STEVE, or ONE of the CONNECTIONS who impacts these voters and can campaign for the award and be LISTENED to, CEASE and DESIST, your opinions have been repeated over and over ad nauseum. Keep it up and you'll turn ALL the voters who don't like DRAMA, totally off of your HOY picks.

Draynay, When will you get it through your head that you have presented your argument so dang many times WE ARE SICK AND TIRED of IT.  WE DO NOT CARE WHAT BIG BROWN HAS DONE...........you've seen to that nearly single handidly. Add Dutrow and Iavarone into the mix and the destruction is complete.

Hey Wanda, what's up with the computer? Heard they have some good deals coming up.

I saw they put Rags momma at the end of the sale, wonder how she'll do. Stardom Bound will go for a ton. I'm so over this HOY, let's talk about it after then we can have another round of this stuff (NOT)

Dray,

  BB in the haskel ran against, and sorry but it's a fact, one of the weekest field ever assembled in that race. Also talent is not totally dependednt on how many surfaces a horse can run on, that just means they are versital, which in that case so even a 5000 dollar claimer can be, but that doesn't mean the horse is talented. Also, not that it give us a right to do it back, but you have been personaly attacking us all year every time we mention a fault w/BB. I've also stated before, since some of the better horse in the hadicapp divison were not at their best, or not their period during the classic, while many good three year olds were you can't fairly judge the class of the two groups against each other. On that note you seem to have some double standards, BB raced against nobod of real importance this year, except eight bells and CJ, who was comprimised in the Derby by a horrid trip, yet you get on curlin for not facing any true G1 competion. Tell me is it your fault if all you competition scrates as soon as you state your race? Curlin's connections sought out good company, but half the field would scratch when they knew they would have to run against him. Now i know it is not BB fault that he was born in a year w/ a weak 3yr old crop, but his connections never sought out better competion, which if you want to be considered great, you at least need to try and find better company, yet his connection ducked company better than grade 2. If you want people to stop loosing it with you than state all the facts w/o twisting them, and also be reasonable and quit attacking others, rembemer the saying what comes around goes around?

Draynay, BB couldn't handle tough competition, hence why Dutrow put him in the Haskell INSTEAD of the Travers and then an Allowance turf race rather than face Curlin in the Woodward or the JCGC.  BB's Beyers speed figures were incredibly low and he hasn't beat ANYONE in the last half of his career!  BB does NOT deserve consideration for HOY, he hasn't done ANYTHING, much less ANYTHING without the steriods!!!  He won the Floriday Derby, the KD and the Preakness on drugs!  Curlin won his races, including in Dubai, WITHOUT steriods!!!  

Get over it, Draynay.  BB is nothing and will be an afterthought in years to come!  Three Chimneys is insane thinking he is worth a $65k stud fee!

Dray,

   Also tell me how Asiatic Boy Well Armed, Vermillion, and Premium Tap are lesser than Smooth Air and CJ. In your comment specificly directed at me you plain and simple were rude and attacked me?! Tell me where in my post to you i attacked you. I'll wait. Synthetics play like turf, here's and example Curlin ran fourth and was 23/4 lenghs back CJ and Smooth air sevnth and sixth only two lengths back. Wow their all kinda bunch togeather, sorta like a turf race!!! Also when i say three year olds i mean the group in genral, it's pretty sad i had to spell that out since you were stupid enough not to understand. CJ and BB are exceptions, sort of like Commentator and Curlin. Also by your logic with how accomplished CJ all of a suddenly became by winning grade ones on two surface, shouldn't he be considered for HOY or best three year old over BB? Don't even try to use that crap, it's supid. Also by your logic Zen should get HOTY. So don't tell me how BB's crop was so strong when the only decent horses worthy of mention in it were him and CJ.

I think Curlin should be HOY, with Zenyatta a close second. Although Zenyatta was perfect in every race and completely dominated her opponents, she didn't run in any huge races and generate the interest and excitement like Curlin did, and like Big Brown did up until the Belmont.Big Brown could've been HOY if he didn't flop so bad in the Belmont, or if he would've come back after that disaster and won some big races with good competition like the Travers or Woodward and Jockey Club.

Draynay - it is you who need to do some homework when you ask how many horses in the last "100" years have won the Haskell and 2 triple crown races.  The Haskell has only been run since 1968 and it was originally called the Haskell Handicap!! It has only been the Haskell Invitational since 1981!  Nowhere near the last 100 years!   Remember also that the Haskell is usually NOT the target for the Derby winner - the very old and prestigious Traver's Stakes is more often the target!  If you want support for your point - at least get your facts straight!

Early polling results are in:

10 to 1 against DRAYNAY and his opinions which have become like the political commercials, repetitious, redundant, every 15 seconds and b.s.

Regarding Zenyatta's claim for HOTY, please tell me why in a year when the Europeans have shown that great fillies can successfully compete against colts as did Zarkava in the Arc D' Triomphe and Goldikova in the Breeder's cup mile, do you wish to reward the easy road taken by Zenyatta's connection against the courageous exploits of Curlin?

I hate to appear to berate Zenyatta when I actually believe that she's awesome but in the context of this year's HOTY contest, in a year when Eight Belles performed terrific against the colts in the Kentucky Derby I cannot see her getting the nod over Curlin who competed successfully on different continents and creditably on different surfaces.

Winning a Breeder's Cup carries a lot of weight indeed but at the same time you cannot penalise Curlin for participating.  His performance was by no means lacklustre and to overlook or discount the courage of owners in voting for HOTY is sending the wrong message...one that will discourage sporting owners and take away from the quality of competition for the fans, harming the sport in the long run.  

I just want to say that when Eight Belles broke down after the Derby there was much discussion about how fillies should NOT race against the boys...one of the main points made was how good fillies can find very good competitive races against other fillies and don't need to race against the boys to "prove" themselves.  Apparently all that feeling is thrown out the window when it happens that Zenyatta (undefeated and pretty darn spectacular against a GREAT crop of fillies) is in consideration for HOY!  It's like everyone is panicking that Curlin' might not get it and a FILLY might!  Please.  She doesn't have to run against the boys to prove how great she is--did any of you actually SEE her run?  She definitely deserves the consideration and if you are going to knock her for only running against fillies, then I guess there needs to be a MALE and a FEMALE Horse of the Year award so everyone will be happy.

Jason, give the 9 year old a break. I re-watched the Barbaro special the other night and I believe that was the age of the kid that sent in a card that said "Courageous Mr. Barbaro" now that was courage.

Not a cheerleader, swore I heard you went trick or treating with your cheerleader costume and pom poms, oops sorry, mistaken identity that was Draynay, Rag the Nag and some of the others.

These don't seem to be horse racing fans on here they seem to be drama queens. Now folks it's not the Academy awards or the emmy's it's the Eclipse awards.

As Steve Haskin put it once

'Oy Vey' let's change that to

'HOY Vey'

Have we not had enough discussion of every bit of minutia, incorrect and irrelevant information on here? Please, please Jason I beg of you for my sanity please post a new blog. I'm not sure how much longer I can put up this courageous battle against the tremendous odds and difficulties.

Well Wanda we blew it. Stardom Bound sold for 5.7 mil and the worst of worst she went to IEAH and Dutrow. Will find a new fav.

Jason, i think that Ranaguzilion means courageouse as in Curlin's connections didn't have to run in the Cup, they didn't have to run in dubia, they didn't have to run him on turf, heck they didn't have to run him period, but they did. Culin could've been retired, Curlin this year could've been unbeaten had his connections been a little more picky about his races. Curlin has had a tough year, that can't be denied. Zenyatta was a very good horse, but i have to wonder what would happened if she tried turf, what would happen if she tried colts, would she still be unbeaten, she very well may still be, but there is always a chance. Curlin's connections took chances to see what the horse could do, to please the fans, and we penalize them for it. Cause as i said Jess didn't have to bring Curlin back, and i'm not saying to give them HOY based on that, but i am say why penalize a horse that travled and race outside his comfort zone, and while doing so lost twice, and if you think about it he also won twice, Dubia.  When people used to say that a good horse can run on anything they didn't mean multiple surfaces, though that most certainly add a luster to them, but they meant that the horse can race in different states in different countries, on dirt and slop, and still win. People have now say that in order to be great you need to win on both sufaces, does that mean Colonel John is great, i'm being very sarcastic, but can you see my point. If we use that as a standard then you can disqualify Affirmed, Slew, the Bid, and many more from the list of immortals. I honestly don't think it's fair to change standards, Curlin in most other years, just for last year would be considered great, yet because he lost against a stellar crop last year, and lost on two surfaces that he may not have completely relish we are going to deny him that term. Instead we want him to run yet again then if he wins maybe we will finally deem him great. I would think that his JCGC last year, his Classic last year, and his Dubia world cup this year would've proven that, and many people say well if he wins this then he's great, then he wins, then you go well he didn't win by enough. Tell me why that makes scence. Does anybody remember last year how people said O he'll stop he'll hit a brick wall, he can't do this, he's to green. Well Shoot he did what we all thought was imposible, he denied logic and did what no normal horse was suppose to do. Now we look and say well he's not good enough to be great, he's loosing a step, did you ever think that we built him up so much, made him such a super horse that he couldn't possibly live up to what we wanted? Even the greats loose, even the greats, didn't go out and blow everyone out of the water each time, so what.

    Now i know i'm gonna get blasted by dray, sayin well brown won from the twenty post in the derby, and won every raced he finished and blah blah. My response is yes he could've been great, he was to me brilliant, and if he had raced and won the Classic against those horse, then he'd be great. Why does he have to win the Classic? Well i know that Curlin didn't face the creme of the crop this year on many occasions, but unlike Brown i know by the 07 preakness, the 07 JCGC, the 07 Classic, and the 08 World Cup, that Curlin can face and beat World class competion and win. BB never faced that so i will never know what he could've done.

Jason,

"Luckily, writers/voters like myself have objectivity when it comes to popular horses like Curlin; we're not cheerleaders, like some people on here".

Are you insinuating that people who think Curlin should be HOTY are "cheerleaders"? Look, you are just ONE turf writer, and I respect your opinion...BUT I have read and heard other turf writers who have said that Curlin should be HOTY. In fact it's running about 2-1 in Curlin's favor. So apparently the people on these blogs picking Curlin have a valid opinion without "cheerleading"!

And again, check your history, Jason. Not to "beat a dead horse", but filies either have to beat the males and/or have a great year without a male standout to get HOTY. IT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN! You want to change the rules now? I prefer to keep the same criteria that has always been used  ...if it's not broke, don't fix it!

The point is I think I've seen the same statistics repeated on here 27 times for Curlin and Big Brown. Then the statistics to support the previous ones, etc.

A lot are not even accurate. It's become a mockery of people bickering with each other.

If a casual fan or someone interested in becoming a fan came on here they would think there are a lot of childish people in horse racing, no wonder they can't accomplish a common goal, these aren't the people in horse racing. Most of them state their opinion an move on or not at all. Some may try to get it stopped or correct the people who are misinformed but not 50 times.

This isn't a High School debate or the newest fad in debating where the debaters all talk as fast as they can trying to get every detail in and talk over the top of each other.

Like Jason said state your case and then get off the subject. Not that they don't like the hits but this is all getting ridiculous in the extreme, mostly because the information is not even correct, just being talked about for the sake of talking. It's like people think it's an argument they can win or is going to get the focus on themselves.

Plus I almost guarantee people don't read the previous posts, there are too many repetitions of what was already said a dozen times in a dozen ways.

Jason finally. I've been reading this stupid argument and what a crock.

Hey people the other people on here can't here you screaming your points or watch you beating the he** out of your keyboards. You say that's not what you're doing? Well I can even picture some of you kicking the dog or laying on the floor throwing a temper tantrum.

Jason Azeri WAS horse of the year. There actually were some nice older horses and a quasi Big Brown in War Emblem. You are looking at this logically, a few others are too, the rest of them are nigh on hysterical.

Not that we don't appreciate the fans but I'm just kind of wondering why this heated debate is going on amongst people who probably will have to look up the winner of this years HOY in 5-10 years. They seem to care more about beating it to death than the people in the industry who don't have a vested interest or horse in the mix.

We're interested but I haven't seen people beating others down or even discussing it at length. Maybe a casual discussion, over and done with.

You know what, I have decided I don't care who HOTY is. They are all wonderful and I don't care who gets it. I know what I think about each and everyone of the top 3 and that is that they are all special and deserve my respect.

Jess Jackson has nothing to prove. Culin had his shot in the Classic. Zenyatta did her thing. Enough said. Curlin is the best overall performer of the year. Zenyatta is the best filly of the year. Let Mr. Jackson buy the remaining 20 percent of Curlin and let him make the decision. To run or not to run. This is what Mr. Jackson has said from the get go. He would like to see other owners run their horse as 4- or 5-year-olds. He did us a great favor running this incredible horse as a 4-year-old despite waiting until the last minute - Big Brown scratches out - to enter the Classic. His reasoning was the surface. I didn't believe it but now I understand. The synthetic surface is a major obstacal, but he still chose to face the best in the world - minus Big Brown - and ran a solid fourth. Zenyatta would have made a gallent run at the end against the Classic field and would have been passing second-tier finishers that were 10-12 lengths back. Curlin is a repeat Horse of the Year.

Whatamidoing:

"Jason Azeri WAS horse of the year. There actually were some nice older horses and a quasi Big Brown in War Emblem".

.."nice" older horses? But there was nothing approaching Curlin.

When Azeri won in 2002, the best older male was Left Bank, who started about 3 races before getting injured. And that, along with War Emblem, was it.  

Again, the precedent has been set when Personal Ensign went 7 for 7 (13 for 13 overall)in 1988, yet it was Alysheba (who, coincidently, also became the all time money winner that year) who got HOTY. And let's not forget Personal Ensign did something that Zenyatta didn't do...beat the boys (1988 Whitney). As a racing traditionalist, one who has studied it's history and seen all the great ones in person since the mighty Kelso, this is "case closed" as far as I'm concerned. So at the expense of sounding redundant, this is my last blog on the subject. We'll see who wins after the voting is in.

The tired horse excuse for Curlin - a short horse on a synthetic surface with only one 5 furlong work in light of Albarado's comment that he was "late" bears more merit - doesn't cut it. As Jason aptly pointed out referring back to the great handicap horses of the 70s and 80s, Curlin's schedule from the Stephen Foster on was not that grueling. Curlin ran his best time in the Classic for a 1 1/4 giving real credence to John Gosden's comment that Curlin, a high speed cruising horse who gallops his opponents into submission, is vulnerable on a synthetic surface to a European turf horse with a quick turn of foot. Thus, you saw Frankie Dettori following Curlin to the lead in the Classic and remarking that was half the battle. That's the reason Curlin was defeated in the Classic and the turf Grade 1 Man O' War as well where Curlin came to contention from far off the pace but could not catch a European turf horse, Red Rocks, who, as the joc said, had a perfect unhurried rail trip several lengths in front of Curlin and pulled away in deep stretch with a final burst of speed. Curlin is an exceptionally tough and durable horse. He does not need a rest and is the champion on the dirt until beaten. Despite his less than stellar competition, he has done what was needed to win on the dirt. In the Woodward and Jockey Gold Cup he caught horses alone on the lead on speed favoring tracks coming from way off the pace with big moves and saving himself at the end under Albarado's guidance after he'd gotten the job done. No reason not to run him back in the Clark. If he takes it, particularly against Commentator at that horse's favored distance of a 1 1/8, it should definitively answer this endless subjective controversy about how good he really  is, whether he's vulnerable on certain surfaces, and whether he's a tired horse impacted by a taxing schedule. However, to be a truly great horse like the Bid, Affirmed, Slew, Secretariat, Cigar, Damascus, Dr. Fager, et al, Curlin needs to run as a 5 year old and prove his mettle. Who knows how great he can be especially in light of the fact that he has only run for two years, failing to even get to the track as a two year old. Hopefully, Curlin's connections who think he ranks up there with the aforementioned great handicap horses will see the need to keep Curlin on the track and out of the breeding stall if they are truly sportsman concerned with his legacy and not just businessmen chasing lucrative profit. There's a possibility Jess Jackson might be that kind of owner. I'm hoping that will prove the case and, if Curlin's loss in the Classic proves the tipping point in Jackson's decision whether to retire him or not, I'm glad the Europeans beat Curlin for I want to enjoy watching him perform as a five year old and finding out just how great he truly may be. If he goes to the breeding stall now, we'll never know and the racing world will have been done an injustice.

Jason, Azeri is the only filly who won HOY without beating the boys and that was because the crop of boys that season was very very weak.  You can't say that this year, when Curlin is in the picture.  Had Curlin not been there, then yes, I'd say HANDS DOWN for Zenyatta, but unfortunately, Curlin had a helluva year as well, being beaten only twice on surfaces he didn't like.  Zenyatta, while she was perfect, had EVERY race carefully planned for her and only raced outside California once.  Curlin set a record in his Dubai win, won twice actually in Dubai.  Curlin travelled more and won more prestigious races.  I am taking NOTHING away from Zenyatta, she is fantastic.  But I don't like the fact she wasn't tested more, being raced in an area she loved.  That'd be like trying to give HOY to Lava Man who couldn't win a race outside Cali (yes I realize Zenyatta won her ONE race outside Cali, but she ran her best IN Cali, same as Lava Man).  

Jason, this comment is borderline insulting "Zenyatta won every race. Curlin was beaten when it counted.

Luckily, writers/voters like myself have objectivety when it comes to popular horses like Curlin; we're not cheerleaders, like some people on here."

No one was beating the Euros at the BC Classic, they were too good and Tiago ran the race of his life.  You are taking away from the Euros & Tiago, not to mention Curlin, with that comment and you are insulting people who read your blog by calling them "cheerleaders".

In fact, when I read other blogs on NTRA and ESPN, most of them are in agreement that Curlin should win HOY.  He was beaten only twice on surfaces other than his preferred surface.  Zenyatta spent the ENTIRE season on surfaces she relished, since she shows she loves dirt & synthetic and really, let's face it, Ginger Punch was not running her best this season, she was never as explosive as she was last year.  Other than that, who did Zenyatta beat in the Apple Blossom?  Curlin is a true DIRT horse.  He is unbeaten on DIRT. Quit taking away from Curlin his accomplishments this season.  

Curlin - hands down!  No matter whether he races or not.  Curlin should be Horse of the Year.

I am amazed to hear someone say that Ginger Punch ducked Zenyatta to run in Grade 1 races in New York.  I at times shake my head when I hear how “Bush League” some of the comments on this blog seem.  Ginger Punch ran in the Ogden Phipps, Go for Wand, Personal Ensign and the Beldame, all traditionally the highest statured races in America for older fillies and mares.  The key is the fact that these were all grade 1’s and were hotly contested.  Zenyatta on the other hand ran in the El Encino, the Milady, and the Clement L. Hirsch, all of these are grade 2 races that drew 3 and 4 horse fields.  Fields that included horses like Kris’ Sis, Romance is Diane Double Trouble, West Coast Swing, Silver Swallow, Silver Z and Dawn after Dawn, the majority of these horses have never won a graded stakes.  So please stop with the comparisons, West Coast racing is in no way on even close to the level of racing that takes place in the east.  Zenyatta is a good filly on synthetics, she came to Oaklawn and won a race very very early in the year when none of the other horses in the race were cranked and then went out to California to continue to be guided through a cream puff schedule in Grade 2 races mostly.  You don’t deserve HOY for winning Grade 2 races sorry that’s not how things work.

Hey Whatamidoing I agree with you on that one. Like I said earlier at the end of the day what diff does it make to any of us?

Jordan I only went up to 5 mill on her sorry buddy. Look for another one this winter okay?

Brad I think the boss and I are looking to upgrade the computer it's about time!

Isn't it nice we have such wonderful candidates for HOY to choose from this year?  There are some years when you feel "well, I guess it could go to" and THIS year, well, it's more like "could we vote for 2?"

Zenyetta - she beat everybody sent against her.  Not her fault nobody sent her out against the boys.  Who knows what would have happened?

Curlin - he won on 2 different continents and also showed he's not a turf horse.  Some of the greats are not.

Should Curlin run in the Clark?  Let him be the one to decide.  If he's soured on racing (happens) and needs a long winter off, or if he's lost a step and can't win at the G1 level anymore, then hopefully Asmussen and his staff will listen to either of those messages.  If he comes back to racing, that will be great.  If he goes off to stud, well, thanks for the memories, and we'll look forward to some bright red babies with brilliant white faces!

Draynay - are you Rick Dutrow in disguise?

Zenyatta?? stayed in California?? Then why do I have pictures of her winning the Apple Blossom at Oaklawn in Arkansas earlier this year??

Here are a few fillies/mares who deserved top billing.  Bayakoa...1989 has to run the same year as Sunday Silence who wins the Breeder's Cup Classic and HOY.  Paseana...1992 has to run the same year as A.P. Indy who wins the Breeder's Cup Classic.  Zenyatta...2008 has to run the same year as Curlin who looses the Breeder's Cup Classic.

Can you people quit with the Curlin ran his best time over the pro ride crap. Time in a race is not the be all end all, just like speed figures. Did anyone else notice how fast that track was? It was lightning fast, why do you think there were so many records set? Just because Curlin ran his fastest ten furlongs does not mean he ran his best ten furlongs. Does anyone remember Last years slop, only what like a fifth or so off the record? Curlin if the track was fast could've very well ran his fastest and best ten furlongs then. So please quit, all the time means is that you had some very good horses on a lightning quick track, nothing more. The only time it will mean something is when a horse comes along and runs lights out on a normally average or slow track, or if the pace is average or slow and you look at the tote board and there is still a record. Kinda like Lawyer Ron's explosive whitney last year. The track wasn't especially fast and the pace wasen't hot yet he still had such an explosive kick that he set a new record. The differece is that Pro-ride on BC weekend was consistantly fast, so i will not put that much stock in the times of the races.

SalemPoe ... No I am not Rick Dutrow But I am tired of people telling me how wonderful Curlin is but each time he faced tough G1 winners he lost. AND other than his Dubai race no one can tell me another great race he had all year.  His victories were close wins over average horses and for that you want to give him HOY ???

Which performance was better Curlin at Dubai or Big Brown at the Derby ???

LPD as i said in the other blog....good points....add this:

for argument sake lets goto facts and figures:

Zenyatta ran 7 races this year of these 2 @ 1-1/8 and the rest at 1-1/16

all these races were Gr. 1 or Gr.2

1 race on dirt and the rest on artificial.

Her Dirt and artificial surface performance numbers do not differ much, so lets assume she like both surfaces.

of all these races she dominated on maybe 2 races.

Curlin: raced 7 times . Except for 2 races at 1-1/8 All the rest were 1-1/ or more.

he won all his races on dirt.

he lost 1 race on turf and 1 race on artificial.

All his dirt figures were good except for the 2 races he lost.

Most of the trainers including the euros have said that SA's surface makes the field even, meaning that turf horses can handle artificial well.

As we see Curlin did not handle turf to e on top of the turf division and since artificial surface suits turfers better. Should we not rate Curlin on his dirt races only, where he ran and as did Zenyatta against the best in his division and dominated 1 race more than Zenyatta. And that most of his races were at 1-1/4 or more. If not then for argument sake lets include Midnight Lute and Benny the bull

Draynay....get this in your head smart horses just do enough to win and not try to win by say 50 lengths...

John Henry is most of his races just stayed close or took the lead and did enough to win, most of his races if i recollect were not won by a big margin.

very few horses have gone to dubai and returned in the same form they were in before going there.

"Which performance was better Curlin at Dubai or Big Brown at the Derby" ???

Curlin at Dubai.  

Wanda, the boss as in work or your other one who only thinks he's the boss? I hope you get something good, we hate you being MIA

SALEM POE, that suggestion was thought of a long time ago. But I doubt it, just comparable obnoxious attitudes.

jim swore I wouldn't do this but

Zenyatta ran on three VERY different synthetics and on dirt in graded stakes company is undefeated. Much as I love my man Lute, no comparison, he got leveled in the race before BC ran dead last. NOT just last. Benny the Bull, nope. Think it's pretty much determined to be between the two.

As we have said though Curlin has been to Dubai 160 times, Big Brown has won the Derby 100 times and poor courageous Curlin has had 2 grueling years 23 times. How much can we discuss this, throwing new horses in the mix makes it slightly more interesting as long as the person hasn't already posted 19 times.

salempoe,

No he isn't Dutrow, he's bashed trainers on here to the max.

Dutrow only bashes female trainers after he said his ex girlfriend Michelle Nevin is the reason Big Brown did what he did. Hey now maybe there's what happened to the horse. Michelle heard the word and stopped working with him.

Draynay, the only reason anyone is using Curlin's statistics is in defense of your statitistics and the whole thing has gone over the top. It was stupid to the point of being funny, now it's just flat stupid. BOTH ARGUMENTS

Jason isn't there at least one other subject we could discuss?

Like all the BC fillies, mares etc that went in the sale, something PLEASE?

Wanda, that was you, gosh we must have been bidding against each other. Indian Charlie had a funny piece on what the plans are for her. He is really out there some times. Kind of like some on here only he's funny, usually.

What people are failing to realize is Curlin was The Reigning Horse Of The Year---he ONLY needed to win he Classic! Instead, they go to Dubai for several weeks--and then they race him all over--Why? All Curlin has to do is run/win BC Classic and he's champ! Midnite Lute wins ONE race--and he's champ! Don't blame Zenyatta for being the only one of the big three to show up and dominate in Breeders Cup! No filly/mare should ever have to beat boys--yet does anybody really think Zenyatta is not a great mare? Stand back/and stand down! The Breeders Cup is America's Championship Day at the races! Team Curlin decided to show up late to the party and THEY WERE SERVED BY CAGIER BARNS---nothing more/nothing less! They should've planned it better! They didn't go in The Arc because they tested turf and he didn't run well---They should've gone in The Goodwood--not The JC Gold Cup---if they were planning on winning The Classic! ALL THIS does NOT deminish Zenyatta's unbeaten year! She dominated as if she was in her own race, and racing needs to award her for that!

Both Curlin/Big Brown were dominant in Spring! BB's Derby was one for the ages--Curlin's Dubai romp was strong! But Zenyatta was solid all year long---Jan at Santa Anita...April at Oaklawn---Aug at Del Mar...Sept/Oct at SA...SOLID all year! Who cares who would win in The Clark or ANY race! It (HOY) is for the best season! The integrity of The Breeders Cup itself is on the line here! Thats why Smarty Jones lost HOY to a three time starter (Ghostzapper)--cuz he didn't show up in The BC and Ghostzapper did! To award HOY to Curlin over Zenyatta  woukld be saying The Breeders Cup doesn't matter--AND IT DOES!

Hey Wizard--how 'bout Curlin's Derby v Big Brown's Derby?? That's a better way to compare them....

DIRT MAN(TDRL)sees things pretty CLEAR on here!!!Long Live The Dirt!!!...the year is not over???

To the folks who keep listing the 'sub-par' horses that Zenyatta beat, why do you leave Tough Tiz's Sis off your lists? Is it because in an effort to avoid Z she went to NY and won a G1 on the dirt? So a case could be made that She IS a good horse. Also you all seem to forget that Oaklawn is dirt and Ginger Punch was the reigning champ.

 And to Tiznow...way up the page here you commented on my comment about $, you seem to have missed my point. As Jason and others have concurred with me that the HOY should not be decided by $ earnings as they are not necessarily reflective of the best campaign due to the crazy ammonts of money offered nowadays. I never said it wouldn't be flipping great to win $5 million. To illustrate my point Citation was off the board ONCE in 45(45!!) starts, won all of the most prestigious races of the time and "only" earned $1 million. People will remember Cy long after they've forgotten our current horses. I know Jason will tell me to leave the past horses out of it, but I'm talking about money and prestige not HOY. And I'm sure eveyone knows that Curlin's record is far behind the world leading money winners, I'm pretty sure the total is well over $17 million. And I doubt it'll take another 12 years to top this...we'll see.

  Then after all that...I love Curlin, I love Zenyatta more and I love Big Brown. This wasn't the BEST year of(or for) horse racing but as it was what we had I certainly enjoyed it. I was lucky enough to time my annual trip to Del Mar for the Pacific Classic weekend and was extra excited to see 19 of the horses I saw at DM run in the BC, even though they didn't do so great. And I met Mike Smith (last year too!) and he is so nice and so talented and a little under-rated I think, I hope he is up for the jockey's eclipse award. I guess Gogo will probably win it, I met him too!

Rechelle the comment "Zenyatta won them all/Curlin lost when it counted" should NOT insult you! You're not realizing the IMPORTANCE of The Breeders Cup! THAT IS when it counts!! Then you thriow out the excuse that "while Curlin didn't like Turf/Pro Ride...Zenyatta loved all her tracks---the dirt, last years SA Poly...Hol Park Cushion...The Quirky Del Mar Poly...and Pro Ride--aka "she won them all!!!" Believe me the tracks play very differently out West now--it's way harder to dominate out here than when all they ran on was hard dirt tracks...But you make excuses for Curlin, even though he basically ran the same race in Classic--only v BETTER prepared competition! So you excuse the BC LOSS, you excuse the turf...so how does that take away from Zenyatta smoking the best Distaff field ever despite a slow pace??? How does one make allowances for a fourth place finish over this years Ladies Classic?

Curlin's first race in dubai the one before the world cup was rated as 130 and the world (rating not given)was much better.

Big Brown's derby rating(converted) is more close to 123 or 124.

Dray, just because your super horse won the derby doesn't mean it was better. He had a nice clear trip on the outside away from's harms way, and ran against some nasty competion. Curlin broke slowly got shuffled back and when he went to make his move he gets blocked having to go even wider, and still he manages a closing third. Answer me this whose overall career was better? Curlin has race 16 times and was never out of the money. Curlin last year even won more prestigous races than BB. For instance he won against older, wait the elite older horse on dirt in the JCGC, and he won the Breeders Cup, and he was in the top three in ALL the TC races more than you can say for BB.

Gee.... it seems NO ONE can name the other "Great" performances by Curlin this year.... one great performance and you want to give him HOY ???

Come on Curlin fans... other than Dubai give me Curlin's great performances that earn him HOY ???

Anyone.....???

Curlin at Dubai without a doubt. Curlin travelled halfway across the world to a climate like he had never seen before and tore them all a new one. The Big Ole Browneye went to Kentucky and had a cakewalk against the weakest group I have ever seen run in a Derby. No comparison.

As for me, I'm going to let the pros choose.  I have my own opinions on most horses, naturally, including Curlin, Big Brown and Zenyatta.  I am just amazed at how quickly horse racing fans will tear each other apart.  At a time when racing is so criticized by the outside world, fans should stand together to support the sport, no matter which horses you do or don't like.  Finally, I am in awe of all of these gorgeous animals, but honestly, my favorite is my racehorse ;)

Draynay, let's see ... Curlin at the Dubai or Big Brown at the Derby??

Big Brown ran the Derby on steriods.  Curlin ran the Dubai drug free.  I think it's a no brainer ... Curlin at the Dubai!

WHO did Big Brown beat this season?!?!?!?  Can you tell me that??  Who did Big Brown beat that was better than an allowance horse at the time of the race?  The answer - NO ONE!!!  Colonel John didn't improve until the summer and if BB would've faced Colonel John again, he would've lost that race.  BB's connections realize that he was NOT the horse they thought he was, hence why he ran the Haskell against a weak field instead of the Travers against a much better field (ducking Colonel John and Pyro) and then ran an ALLOWANCE turf race.  BB does NOT deserve HOY!!  Plus, BB's loss at the Belmont was HIS own fault, he broke poorly, broke into a maiden horse because he got spooked.  THAT's why his shoe got dislodged.  

Give it up.  BB will NOT be HOY and I think he'll be lucky to get 3yo champion of the year when his last half of it, he lost the Belmont and then rather than facing possible competition, ran against weak fields and still nearly lost the Haskell.  Colonel John did more in the Travers and was much more exciting to watch than BB was after he was off the steriods!!

"As a racing traditionalist, one who has studied it's history and seen all the great ones in person since the mighty Kelso, this is "case closed" as far as I'm concerned. So at the expense of sounding redundant, this is my last blog on the subject. We'll see who wins after the voting is in.

Saratoga AJ 03 Nov 2008 6:42 AM"

AJ, you became redundant about 3 comments prior to this one.CASE CLOSED you say, well that's good to hear, guess you have your ballot all filled out and mailed in. But wait they aren't even out yet.

You folks are FAR MORE STIRRED UP about this than us racetrackers are. What is your stake in it? JUST A DESIRE TO BE RIGHT? SAY I TOLD YOU SO? Well who are you telling it too? Certainly nobody who does this every day for a living has more than a passing interest in it. I made ONE comment, would have stayed out of it further except to clarify my comment about Azeri. She was a female who did not run against the males, my point because Jason said he didn't care if it had been voted that way before. Well it has, he knows that, he is rational because this stuff is his JOB. See a trend here folks.

Other than Curlin's victory in Dubai, which shouldn't really be that much of a factor since it's not in North America, he was not hugely impressive and he couldn't win when it counted, for him the BC. If the races out of the country are what we take into consideration then a horse like Raven's Pass should be considered, if Zarkava would have been a U.S. based horse and run here once should all of her other victories have made her horse of the year?

If,IF,IF. My main point is WHAT does it matter to you folks? WHY would it matter SO MUCH that you'd argue for DAYS and DAYS over this?

OK, Dranay!You ignorant fool! I was at Churchill Downs to see CURLIN win the Stephen Foster by 4 1/2 lenghts! Against good competition, I might add. He put in a stunning performance - very impressive win! Inform yourself before you put down other fans' horses; BB - and I've said it before - is a nobody with a body of work that seems good; but that's only because he had NO real competition at the time - not his fault; but the way it is. No HOY for poor BB! This was a weak 3-year old year.  CURLIN won three grade I races in addition to his World Cup race ( and The Jaguar prep race).  He raced against the best in the world! BB raced against the weakest fields. And BB got beaten by a filly too! If you can't see CURLIN as the great horse he's proven himself to be, you have a major problem and are continuously making a fool of yourself in addtion to aggravating a lot of people - incl. CURLIN fans. Why don't you just quit this nonsense and switch to something you know more about and where you won't annoy people the way you are now?  By the way, I agree with SalemPoe saying that we horse fans should stick together with things the way they are.  So, without Dranay, we might just be able to do so!

GO CURLIN !!!!!!!!!!!!

The fact of the matter is the bent shoe had nothing to do with BB being pulled up,eased,distanced,call it what you will. So please stop with the lame excuses.The only thing they will be talking about in ten years is BB's stud fee being $5m.

Curlin horse of the year by a head to Zenyatta.

"If,IF,IF. My main point is WHAT does it matter to you folks? WHY would it matter SO MUCH that you'd argue for DAYS and DAYS over this"?

Whatamidoing: It's called debate via blogging...

Jordan: that was you up in the corner out bidding me!

Brad: By the boss I mean the guy I wake up to for over 20 years. If I win the lottery I might look for a toy boy on the side.

Just like Whatamidoing and Atthebarn I'm saying again what is everyones stake in this? It's gone from chat to crazy chat. Lets leave it for now and oh by the way do you read about the new site for free TB's? Check it out and maybe get one to look after so you all will have something to do in your spare time. I just bought a filly for canner price that was headed to the feed lot. Where's that brick wall Att was talking about? I need it now!

Saratoga AJ, no this is definitely not debate, because the erroneous facts and repetition on here wouldn't win a middle school debate, let alone a Presidential debate (well maybe more of a chance there). I agree with a TRAINER who says it's ridiculous and only the parties who have something at stake are carrying signs and politicking for it.

Actually I don't think I've heard too many of them going at it like on here.

Wanda, That's the boss I figured. Was the kid in the corner bidding someoone with 50 girls hanging around, him? Handsome as heck, piercning blue eyes? If so that was our Jordy, not sure where he got the rest of the 5 mil from. Last I heard he didn't quite have that yet. Hey, if you win the lottery, there's your racing partner and boy toy all in one.

Your suggestion to these folks is excellent. I have a friend who is a guy that controls how many horses can be shipped to Mexico and I didn't ask what happens to the rest, that fate is bad enough.

Not too much brick out here, maybe we could get one shipped from Atthe, just hit ourselves over the head repeatedly with it.

Dray you either missed my post, or you flat out ignored it, since i gave you seven great performances this year. Heres a question for you: name some stellar performances of BB when he was off the steroids, and name some of the o so great horses he beat, then say how much he won by? Remember, only the races he ran w/o steroids. No cheating.

Matt W the BC should not matter so much that it takes away HOY from a horse that would've won it, but showed up in the cup to please the fans, even though the owner and trainer were dead set against it most of the year. That is not fair what so ever. We all pushed and pushed for Curlin to come, and when he did he ran his heart out and lost, basicly, to please the fans. Zenyatta, whom i love, did win her race, but you didn't see any big name Euro's running against her. If Zarkava had showed up the result could've been very different. Also did you notice that both her top challengers, GP and HL hated the surface. She beat a weaker field than curlin ran against. Especially since Curlin only got beat a total of 23/4 lengths by better prepared, and super star turf horses, Henry and RP, and a synthetic specialist who loved the Pro-ride. that is nothing to sneeze at. So in my viewpoint had the Euro's not been in the Classic, and Zen had she might've been in a photo with Curlin.

Matthew W, I'm not taking away from the BC Classic and its importance, but I'm saying Curlin WAS dominant enough this year that he should get HOY again.  Zenyatta deserves all the credit in the world, but unfortunately, she ran in a year when Curlin was running and she never faced him.  In order for her to win, she had to (A) face the boys or at least Curlin or (B) run in a season where there was NOT a dominant male.  Curlin has done enough to win it.  He won 2 races in Dubai, he won the Stephen Foster, he won the Woodward and he won the JCGC.  As I said before, NO ONE was beating Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator or Tiago that day.  The surface was ideal for the Euros and Tiago ran the race of his life.  Since June, Curlin has run a race a month (Stephen Foster in June, Man O'War in July, Woodward in August, JCGC in September and BC Classic in Oct).  For horses that are no longer bred to run a race a month like the horses in Secretariat & Alysheba's days, that is a helluva schedule.  

Curlin has done enough for HOY honors.  Zenyatta falls short because she didn't face the defending HOY or the boys.

To those of you "in the business" who don't seem to like the debate here about which favorite horse should win HOY, you would do well to remember that without us fans you have no business.  It is the dedication of loyal fans to the horses that keeps racing alive.  For the most part these discussions are just everyone's way of expressing their interest and support of their favorite.  

Rechelle! Well put! Right on!

All your points are correct and pointing CURLIN toward HOY - No contest at all! No need for me to comment further.  Thank you Rechelle!

GO CURLIN!!!!!!!!!

Racingfan

I'm not 'in the business'. I'm a handicapper, gambler and fan. At some point it became ridiuclous.

Yes debate, discuss great. But it's down to nothing but petty bickering and a core of around 10 people reiterating the same stuff over and over and over again. If you think that's productive then so be it, I disagree.

Not one of those 'racing industry people' on here said they didn't appreciate the fans. But face it without the fans, there's just empty race tracks (hmmm look at Aqueduct lately?) The gamblers are what ultimately support this sport. Luckily I'm also a fan. I made my point and truthfully isn't one post with your point of view enough?

p.s. I think also what they and I as well have been referring to is the name calling and how nasty it's all become.

hey nay nay,

Let's examine your obscession with Big Brown and insistance that he was better than Curlin another way.

I believe that one very good way to gauge how good one was is to examine who they lost to.

Curlin was beaten by Street Sense (a 2 yr old HOY and a KY. Derby winner), Hard Spun (a top notch G1 horse as well), Any Given Saturday (at his best), Rags to Riches (one of the best Fillies to come along in years), Red Rocks (on the grass and against a former Breeders Cup Turf winner), Raven's Pass, Henrythenavigator, and Tiago on a surface Curlin clearly did not like but still came in at 1 1/4 miles under 2:00. What do all these have in common? They are ALL proven top notch G1 animals and each one could have whipped the Big Ole Browneye him or herself. A veritable who's who in racing the past two years.

Big Ole Browneye lost to Da'Tara (who?), Denis of Cork (who again?), Anak Nakal ( the who's keep growing), Ready's Echo (lost at a distance to this second tier sprinter), Macho Again (a split decision), Tale of Ekati (another nobody), Guadacanal, (LMAO a Maiden!!), and Ichabad Crane (any relation to Frazier?). This is not a good list. None of theses animals has gone on to beat any true G1 animal since kicking Brownies rear end.

The Big Ole Browneye falls short again in comparison. Give it up nay nay, there are so many ways he falls short.

JORDAN A:  I did not address my post to you so I am not sure why you responded in such a way.  I addressed it to those who have stated that they ARE in the business but are apparently irritated with the debate. I felt their comments were rude as though people in the business do not have the right to voice their opinions. I personally think people who are not in the business, very much enjoy the chance to speak up and thus get to "feel" involved. I do! Anyone who has grown tired of it does not have to continue to read or post anything.  I agree that SOME on here have gone over the top, which is why I said "for the most part" they are discussions of support of the favorite. I just didn't want to name names. As far as "only 1 post with my opinion being needed" that was my 3rd post - all on different subjects-including one about the Bloodhorse article on synthetics which I was hoping would open up a discussion. But let's see - you posted several more times than me - I guess what you have to say is much more important.

Racingfan do you mean just fans or do you mean the gamblers? Cause I'll tell you what drives the industry money thru the mutuals.The only way you get more money thru is that you put out a good product.That means the guys who train for a living bring over the best product they can bring. So the guys "in the business" are needed as well or there would be no fans. Chicken or the egg take your pick.

I meant All who love the sport be they gamblers (who must be fans also or they wouldn't be spending their money) or just those who follow racing for the love of the animals.  Obviously everyone involved is needed (that's a given isn't it?).  However all the talk is about racing dying because of fan alienation and loss of interest. If that happens there will be no need for anyone to breed, own or train racehorses. It is amazing to me how statements on here need to be explained or they get turned around into something else. I was simply trying to make a point that ALL people should be welcome to share their views without those who are in the business chastising the rest for speaking, as if they have no right to do so because they are just fans. How off the subject can we all get?  LOL

Racingfan, I'm not sure what 'THAT WAY'is. I was not impolite at all.

I responded because I WAS one who was calling for a cease fire. I know a few of the people posting on here, whether my buddy Wanda from the board or two trainers on here thru my buddies who met them and who we correspond with.

In fact my handicapping buddies and I as well as another handicapper ALL were calling for all of this to end. I'm a fan too and I can see how stupid it's become.

My posts were mostly to talk about other things, still relevant to racing but not to reiterate over and over again about the same subject.

The reason I took exception to what you said was not the # of YOUR posts but the fact that you insinuated just because people have expressed that it's getting old, which it is, they don't have a right to state that, that they are stepping on the most important peoples toes, the fans.

Your statement was much more offensive that any of theirs or ours. Why? because you totally discount them in the total picture as well as those of us who agreed and actually DO support racing, not the FANS who watch on television 3 or 4 times a year or go to the races a couple of times, if even that.

The industry people never said that about you they rightfully said this is hurting the industry not helping it. NO hateful remarks about if THEY weren't around you'd have to be fans of something else. THAT IS the reality.

I happen to agree with them that it isn't in the best interest of racing to belabor something like this, get nasty about the whole thing.

Ever stop to think that those of us who gamble, or train or own are all very closely tied together and want what's best for the industry? Know that this kind of stuff is a turnoff?  I talk to those people 2 or 3 times a week, how about you?

The point our trainer friends are making is that it has gone from being a debate and constructive to being harmful and destructive as well as pointless. I happen to agree. I also agree that all of this vitriol and screaming at each other could be put to more positive use.

AND, Whatamidoing has a point, will any of the people who are arguing, so VEHEMENTLY, even remember who the HOY is in 5 years.

EVEN JASON said, STATE YOUR POINT, don't keep dramatizing it and going over and over it. The word ‘you’ being used in the context of , 'if it applies to YOU'

Racingfan, just got a text about this.

I've been too busy to read but Jordan answered just fine. He didn't insult you, just like I said and have said repeatedly we appreciate the fans.

Rather, I took it as an insult to say WE wouldn't exist if it weren't for fans. Well we still would,maybe not in the same exact way or numbers but we would still match race or whatever. And maam I don't think the fans do a huge amount of supporting on a day to day basis, there are too many empty grandstands, declines in attendance. But, when all is said and done it's the gamblers that support the industry, plus our own nominations and vaious fees we pay. The cost to fans would be too exhorbitant to pay if we had to charge them to get in the door and keep racing going from that income.

I just feel that this 'debate' isn't doing anything to promote the sport. If you personally weren't involved in the haranguing why would you take offense?

If you re-read the comments, you'll see the same few people just constantly beating the subject to death. Are you trying to tell me that a casual but interested fan would think this is anything more than bickering?

My point about why so much venom and vitriol about something that doesn't even have the subjects most closely tied to the issue concerned, why is it causing people to attack others?

When I said "you" I mean if the shoe fits wear it, if not throw it away or give it to the needy.

Not to discount fans at all, but can you seriously believe if there weren't the industry people you would have it as something to even be interested in?  I don't think sitting in a grandstand and staring at a deserted track would attract too many fans.

Well Jason...I hope this blog was enough to change your mind.  Curlin is the people's horse.  While everyone recognizes the talent and potential of Zenyatta, Curlin deserves to be HOY in my opinion as well.  Jess Jackson and Curlin have done so much for this sport that they should be rewarded.  Curlin was brillant all year long and tried his best in the BC Classic only failing on a surface that his trainer didn't want to run him on.  We knew that he didn't like synthetics as much as dirt going into the race because of his start on the turf.  Had Curlin skipped the BC, I think that he would have definitely been HOY.  Why punish him for trying?  Didn't he do what we have all wanted him to do...run?  

Curlin ducked no one this year and shipped all over the world.  That in itself takes a lot out of a horse, and he still managed to win GIs throughout the year carrying heavy weight assignments at times.  While Zenyatta has been spectacular, she has only shipped out once and has not had the grueling weight assignments and competition that Curlin has faced.  He has danced every dance and has tried his heart out.  He has won every start this year except for two...both of which weren't on dirt.  He is the classiest horse that I have ever seen, and this horse will always hold a very special place in my heart.  I think a lot more people will be disappointed if Curlin doesn't win HOY than if Zenyatta doesn't win HOY.  I think that in itself should speak volumes for Curlin.  He was the horse that racing needed, and he captured fans across America.  Let's give the champ from "the red, white, and blue corner" what he deserves.  America's Horse, the $10 million Curlin, for HOY.  

Zenyatta will have her chance to prove how good she is next year when she runs against the boys.  She just didn't take the crown away from Curlin this year IMO.  

Jason, not to be rude, but as i stated in another blog, you are being, in my oppinion hypocritical. Before i start let me say that i firmly believe that proud spell should be the winner of her division, so i'm not changing positions at all. What i'm looking at is that you are willing to give a filly with a hard tough campaign, but didn't even show up to the BC the award. Proud Spell has traveled all over the darn place winning some of the most prestigious races in the U.S. She has never this year race in anything lower than grade 2, i think, you can correct me on that. Against whatever she has given to run against she has shown up, and ran her heart out, even in defeat. Notice most people scratch out her Ashland stakes because of the surface she was beaten on. Then even you yourself said you believed that in her DQ she shouldn't have been bumped out of second. So from my corner, she has done just about everything this year, but win a BC race.

  Now with Curlin, who has travled from Dubai and back, ran on turf, dirt, and synthetics all in one year, won under heavey weight assignemets, won on the WORLD'S biggest stage, defended his title in the JCGC, won at the graveyard of champions, then traveles again all the way out to cali. That is travleing and then some. I would call that grueling, baring the competion because he travle what over 9000m i think during one year. Another fact, i don't know the grade of the prep he won in Dubia, but other than that, he has competed in exclusively grade one races since the Derby and has he ever finished out of the money, no, has he ever finished off the board, once. Out of all those grade ones he has only finished off the board once, and i am counting mainly this year. You can scratch his turf race, since we know he doesn't really like the turf, which leaves him with a record of 6-5-0-0, for this season. In the classic, who's to say he wasn't short, he'd only pointed for that race for like four weeks. Then unlike Zen, he ran against some of Europes biggest stars. Tell me what you think would've happened had Zarkava and Goldikova run in the Distaff. Curlin that day did run against better than Zen did. With all the reason there are for PS to be champ of her divison, there are and more for Curlin to be HOY, yet you won't give it to him, because a talented filly, who has an ubeaten record. Never mind most of those wins came in one state over a certain kind of surface. Never mind that she basicly beat the same horses over and over again. Never mind she didn't compete in exlusively grade one. Never mind how Curlin's accomplishments, and body work for the year tower over hers.