Music Note wins... more G1 wins and showed up to the Breeders Cup and hit the board.  

Jason, I agree with you on this one.  I think 3yo Champion Filly should be Proud Spell.  I honestly believe that she would have run in the Ladies Classic had she not had such a tough campaign this year and if her connections didn't feel she was too worn out.  She beat some better competition this season than Music Note did and never ran against allowance company in any of her races.  Proud Spell would've done better in the Mother Goose, the race that Music Note beat her, if her jockey would have ridden her better.  I don't consider that race to have been lost by Proud Spell but by her jockey, from the moment they broke from the gate to riding her so tightly against the rail.  He just rode her very poorly, but to be fair, he is a young jockey still and has a lot of learning to do.  Proud Spell also ran 2 races more than Music Note, which makes me think she deserves the title more.  

I like Music Note and was rooting for her to do well in the Ladies Classic, but since she came in third, I don't think that's enough to upset Proud Spell.  Honesty, I won't be upset if either one of them win, since they are both the shining stars of their crop.  

Would Eight Belles be considered for 3yo champion filly, since her only defeat came to Big Brown in the Derby?  She won 4 races this season, although only 2 were graded stakes races.  

Jason....if Indian Blessing is a leading candidate, along with Ventura, for the Female Sprint award, does that mean she won't be looked at as a 3-Year-Old contender along with Proud Spell and Music Note?  I know she was defeated by Proud Spell but her two mid-year losses did come when she ran a mile or longer.

Between these two I would have to side with Proud Spell, with a caveat.

I'll call it the one race conundrum.

What do you do with Goldikova???  As close as is the 3YO filly race, what about turf female?  If, as some think, Goldikova could be the turf female champ over Forever Together off of her BC race, why can't she be the 3YO champ?

Not that I'm advocating that..just throwing it out.

Jason,

I agree with you about Proud Spell, who has earned the top three-year-old honor, but I'm also a little torn between her and a filly you didn't mention.

Eight Belles' rising career was tragically cut short, yet just before her breakdown, she beat 18 of America's best three-year-old males in its toughest race. If there was a more courageous and game filly this year, I haven't seen her. I think Eight Belles deserves consideration as well.

I agree that Proud Spell had the tougher year, and that would normally make me lean her way. However, Music Note only made 2 fewer starts, and won 3 grade one races. In head to head competition, Music Note defeated Proud Spell by quite a large margin (Proud Spell was really the runner-up in that effort), and Proud Spell only defeated Music Note by a head. What really sells me on Music Note is the "Ladies Classic" 3rd place finish. Music Note was the only 3 year old who bothered to show up for the race. In the most talented field of Championship Weekend, Music Note finished ahead of 5 top class older mares. Proud Spell did not compete.

PRoud spell. That filly has grit, grind and heart. Every time she stepped hoof on the track she never failed us, never quit.

You didn't mention the way she beat the Oaks feild, lol. she crushed 'em.

The alabama ranked among the most exciting race in years...Personal Ensign.

She gets my vote..

  My vote also goes to Proud Spell without a doubt. Like you said The Oaks is equivilent to The Derby, but for the fillies. I think she did one very good job this yaer and well deserves the honors.

I actually agree totally.  I was trying to think of something to add.  Not that it should be a significant factor but she was thought of as a prospective Derby horse at one point.  It's just another indicator of how good she is.

Am I right in assuming Indian Blessing would get the other slot for 3yo filly?  It's a shame to ignore Eight Belles.  She did make 2nd in the Derby after all and I think would've gone on to make the Proud Spell/Music Note battle moot, although potential counts for zip in the voting.  I just don't see how she gets past the other three in terms of total accomplishments over a year though.

I would definently pick Proud Spell over Music Note. I also agree with the question above. Will Indian Blessing be considered for 3 year old champion.

Proud Spell should and will win! I don't have to say why as Jason you hit it perfectly, plus I can't lie I love this horse. The heart and fight she displayed so many times was just tremendous to watch. No disrespect to Music Note, she's an awesome filly as well.

Proud Spell, IMHO

Isn't this the guy who said Curlin didn't deserve HOY because he just showed up at the BC and hit the board? Or that his own favorite didn't NEED to go to the BC to be considered for HOY, come on you can't have it both ways.

"Music Note wins... more G1 wins and showed up to the Breeders Cup and hit the board.  

Draynay 11 Nov 2008 2:57 PM"

Does ANYBODY out there actually take him seriously?

Plus I saw both fillies run several times in person, including

Music Note at the BC. Proud Spell was the most impressive, in my eyes and I've seen the greatest of the great fillies run in person. While she doesn't compare with some of them she's the better of these two.IMHO

I'm leaning towards Indian Blessing, followed by Proud Spell and Music Note. Goldikova is an incredible filly but all but one of her races were in Europe.

Indian Blessing and Proud Spell are two very tough fillies; they carried their form from last year to this year. I think Indian Blessing's body of work is more impressive; she's never finished worse than second and she's been tough in all her wins and losses. Proud Spell is also such a game, classy filly. Music Note, I believe her breeding kept her from starting earlier and presenting a bigger challenge to the top two, but she is a force to be reckoned with and I hope they keep her on the racetrack next year.

Basically, I have no idea who's going to win, because I think they all deserve it but Indian Blessing and Proud Spell much more so.

Eight Belles might not have won a Grade 1 but why did she run in the Derby and not Proud Spell? Because she was better and Larry Jones knew it. In running second in the Derby, Eight Belles put up the best performance of any American three year old filly this year.

The amount of Grade 1 wins in this debate is irrelevant. Were the Grade 1 wins of Music Note against true Grade 1 opposition? Of course they were not. The grading of races can hide the real lack of quality in them and Music Note's wins are an example of that.

I don't think either Proud Spell or Music Note are worthy of an Eclipse award but I suppose one of them will have to get it.  

I might be wrong, but didn't Music Note's big wins all occur in New York?  If true, that might be something to consider when looking at both fillies.

Proud Spell. She beat Indian Blessing, who is definetly one of the toughest we have right now. And Proud Spell won the Oaks. Music Note has been brilliant, but truthfully, aside from Proud Spell, who has she beat? That last win before the Distaff was over three completely overmatched rivals, since Country Star was scratched.

I wouldn't be surprised if Eight Belles got some votes either. She did finish second in the Derby, and who knows what she would have done later.

Isn't Cocoa Beach a 3 year old? If so, granted she only had two races, but she beat Ginger Punch and was second to Zenyatta while beating Music Note. Proud Spell might've stole this one away by staying away from the BC. But don't get me wrong, she's got enough credentials to be honored.

Proud Spell and Indian Blessing both beat out Music Note (only 4 races, one an allowance).

Proud Spell 8 races, I think all were graded stakes, 2 gr1, 2 gr 2 wins including Kentucky Oaks, beat Indian Blessing and Music Note.

Indian Blessing also ran 8 races, from distances of 6 furlongs to 1 1/16 miles, 7 of them graded (BC new F&M sprint non-graded) wins 5 (2 gr I's, 3 gr 2) with 3 seconds. Beat Proud Spell.

The decision maker is the Oaks, and the fact proud Spell beat Music Note & Indian Blessing, but boy, I have a hard time saying one deserves it more than the other.

Emotionally, I was rooting for Music Note, who I think turned in a great effort in the Distaff (sorry, just won't ever be Ladies Classic for me...) to be third, ahead of Hystericalady and Ginger Punch and the horse that won the Spinster. Part of my bias against Proud Spell was that her connections opted to skip the BC, which goes against the spirit of what the day is supposed to be about. The 3 YO filly championship shouldn't have been decided in the Alabama, it should have been the Distaff. As for where I ultimately fall, I have to give it to Proud Spell anyway. The Oaks and the Alabama are the counterparts to the Derby and Travers, so that tips things in her favor. Can't fault the voters one way or the other though, as I think both fillies have their merits. Now, I wonder if Indian Blessing would garner support...probably moreso for the Female Sprinter...

Proud Spell!  

HELLO JASON:

I AGREE WITH YOU REGARDING PROUD SPELL. NO DOUBT SHE WILL WIN.

Indian Blessings is a sprinter, I was there when Proud Spell won the Fairground Oaks. I think that you are over rating that race.

Music Note won three grade ones and she beat Proud Spell by a much larger margin than her lost to her.

Proud Spell connections chose to run her in a stake against lesser competition than to run in the breeders cup(she ran third).

Music note ran third in the Breeders Cup defeating champions and top ranked horses like Ginger Punch etc.

MUSIC NOTE SHOULD BE THE 3 YEAR OLD FILLY CHAMPION.  

Yes you are right Jason, Gr 1 events are relevant. But in defense of Jose93, Eight Belles beat Gr 1 winners in the Kentucky Derby and they were colts. Did the aforementioned filles ever race against colts? But she will not win because her quest for greatness was cut short. That doesn't mean we can't say that she was the Best filly of the year. I know she was. You don't have to be ashamed to admit to that, I'm not.

Zenyatta es el mejor ejemplar en USA 2008, debe ser "Horse the year" 2008

It is important to note that Music Note took on older horses on a surface she did not really like and finished ahead of Ginger Punch and Hystericalady.  Beating Ginger Punch a former champion and winner of her last 9 of 12 should place Music Note ahead of Proud Spell.

Jason, not trying to push buttons or anything, but if one race does not make up the whole year then why does the Breeders Cup, in particular the classic, have to be the be all end all for the awards? Curlin won in Dubai twice, once carrying 132lbs, came back and won the SF, i know it was against not so great competion, but he carried the highest weight, 128lbs, since Skip Away, giving his nearest opponet 10lbs. I think the rule is 1 pound= 1/2 a length, so he gave 5 lengths to his nearest competetor, and 9 to the farthest, and still won easily by 41/2. Then he runs second over the turf, and didn't he beat Grand Courtrei, sorry i can't spell the horses name, but he was supposed to be one of our better horses. The thing is he only worked over turf 2x and because of legal issues was never truley pointed to the race. Then he comes back, wins the Woodward at the Gaveyard of Champions, then wins the JCGC, and dispite the fact that you say he didn't look all that sharp, if i remember correctly, all the pushing he received was crossed reins. He was never touched w/ the whip. So after all the things he's done this year, why is one bad race, that he again was never really pointed for until a month before the race, make such a difference? Curlin compared to many horses these days did have a pretty hard season, and did extremely well, so why is one race going to take away from all of what he has accomplished? You said in your post to Clay one race doesn't make a year, so why does it in Curlin's case?

 Indian Blessing and Proud Spell are the front-runners in my opinion.  Indian Blessing has finished no worse than second this year, and has won multiple grade 1's.  Proud Spell is so gritty, you have to love the way she always puts up a great fight!  I'm happy with either one winning.

Dray, it was here first time on the surface and she ran third over it, so why do you state she didn't like it. The horses that you say she beat, GP and HL both reportedly don't relish the crap, and GP hated it, so obviouly Music note liked it more than those two. Another important thing to note, when both fillies got to fire their best shots at each other in the Alabama it was Proud spell who won. The race Music note beat Proud spell, was a wierd race, and Proud spell had a bad trip, so if you scratch that, then the time both had a good trip proud spell won, and that is what counts.

Music Note. She has three Grade I wins and placed third in the ladies Classic, defeating last year's older female champion Ginger Punch, as well as Grade I winners Carriage Trail and Hystericallady.

Jason;

"The Eclipse is an American Award".

Please call the connections of Ouija Board, Miesque, High Chaparral, Arazi, Johannesburg, etc., etc. and tell them "just kidding".

Proud Spell

Music Note. She got the class test v older and ran big! She fired her shot and was right in the thick of things with Zenyatta and Coco Beach! Game/Set/Match!

Because of Zenyatta, The Ladies Classic was more meaningful than ANY 3yo race this year! We know Music Note can go with Zen---And THAT fact has much meaning---as there's no telling about Proud Spell while we know about Music Note--she fired big and was around at the finish v a great horse--to lose because of The Alabama nostril job v Proud Spell would be to cheapen The Breeders Cup/which Music Note RAN in/RAN WELL in...It must be noted that The Breeders Cup is THE championship day!

Completely agreeing with you on this one. I think Indian Blessing is a tough, talented filly, however, but Proud Spell and Music Note are my top two. Proud Spell had a HORRIFYING trip in the Mother Goose. Though both fillies stumbled at the start, Proud Spell's courage in that race proved to me her superiority.

Rod, the connections of Proud Spell did the right thing by the horse by letting her have time off.  She ran a race a month and as evidenced by her last race, was worn out.  She needed, and deserved, a break.  Music Note, if she'd beaten Ginger Punch & Hystericalady on a traditional dirt race, then it would have been more impressive, but the fact is, she beat them on a surface that neither horse liked.  Plus, this season, Ginger Punch has not been that impressive, nor has Hystericalady.  A lot of the top horses this season did not show up at the BC because of the surface (at least dirt horses didn't).  Don't take away from Proud Spell because her connections thought of the horse before the money.  I wish more trainers would do that.

Jason, I see your point about Eight Belles, even though she was brilliant.  I guess emotion more than anything makes me want to see her get an Eclipse award, especially with everything she's done for the industry after her death.  That & I'd like to see it for Larry, after watching a documentary (I think on Bloodhorse, actually) and seeing how much he loved that horse and how devestated he was.  My heart still breaks for him.  

With Eight Belles out of the equation, I definitely think it should be Proud Spell.  She ran the harder & better campaign this season.  

I agree that Goldikova should not be considered since she is not an American based racehorse.  If next season she returns and runs most of her races, if not all, in the States, then she deserves to be in consideration.  But only one race and victory in the States does not make an Eclipse nominee or winner.

Jason

I look forward to your chat page always and reading the comments.  Now that you are talking fillies and the dust has settled after the statement dutrow made on women in racing i would love if you did a chat on how things have changed for women in 30 years of racing.Why is it so hard for them to get the respect for their horsemanship and their just monatary rewards as the men get. There are so many women taking care of horses as assistant trainers and work riders but it seems harder for them to get ahead after that.  i beleive the men trainers prefer women taking care of their horses as they are kinder to the horses but i just cant understand why so few women can get ahead in this horse racing business.  i know i am getting away from the fillies but i think it would make a wonderful artical to debate.  

Jason i don't take any offense, i just don't quite like it when others shove a certain oppinion down my throat, thats when i start getting angry and start to retaliate a bit. Just letting you know i wasn't trying to start another debate, i was just wondering why, in some cases do we use the BC as a be all end all, and in others we go well they had a bad race, so just draw a line through it. It just doesn't seem fair that we swith our oppinions so quickly, just to suit our preffernces. I'll try to stick to the subject a bit more from now on K.

Matt W, how do you know Proud spell couldn't go with Zen, at least on dirt. If i remember correctly, when both got togeather for the second time, and both got clean trips proud spell held off Music note, so she, also, may be able to go with Zen.

LDP... In the MotherGoose Music Note Crushed Proud Spell. Music Note won 3 G1 Races, and had a better race record, and faced older horses in the classic and hit the board beating very good older horses.

AND I said she didn't like the surface because the jockey and trainer both said she was sliding on the track.  She lost one race all year on dirt by a head bob.

I don't understand why everyone is relegating Indian Blessing to just sprinting...she ran her 8 graded stakes races from 6F to 1 1/16, and won the Silverbulletday, was second in the Fairground Oaks, at that distance. To me that just adds to her versatility and gives her an edge as top 3 yr old filly because of her ability to win graded stakes at a range of distances.

Like I said before, I might give the edge to Proud Spell for the Oaks, but to exclude Indian Blessing isn't right, she was a force to reckon with whenever she appeared.

Music Note has 6 starts, one being an allowance, wins 3 gr 1's, a second and a third, from 1 mile to 1 1/4. A legit contender, but not quite as good as the other two.

But, what do i know?

Proud Spell, all the way! Larry Jones deserves something after the tough year he's had, plus I just LOVE this filly (she'll fill in the empty spot in my heart now that Ginger Punch is retired)!

You can't Penalize Music Note for showing up at the Ladies Classic and rewarding Proud Spell for not showing up. If you want the prize  you gotta play the game. Music Note Wins it.

This is a tough one..I like them both and they both have strong cases for themselves. I am a firm believer in that one race does not make (or break) a horse. Stuff happens, but I will give the edge to Proud Spell, just the edge to PS.

So J, I'm a newbie and just got the responsibility to vote in our end of the year awards, what would be your advice to picking them and is there a set of guidelines to follow? I'm curious as to how much weight each race carries in the voting process, and how much competition or lack of plays a part. If you have a tie breaker how/who decides? It seems to me especially in years past horses that accompplish much in the early part of the yr get overlooked when others develope in the later part.(and win a BC) So how much do the EARLY 3 yr old races play into it? Do you look at Jan to December and take in ALL races? Is more emphasis as it seems (TC races excluded) on the later races then lets say winning in March vs August? Just trying to get a handle on it, oh and a most important question, do you all follow the same guidelines when deciding or is it to each his own system?

Either one of them will be a fine winner--Proud Spell sure showed some tremendous grit and i love her--however music note is tremendous as well--i was at the Breeders Cup and saw Music Note immed after the race--they were hosing her down on the track and she still had such fire in her eyes--she wanted to beat Zenyatta so badly. Either one is fine with me--i might tilt to Proud Spell.

It has to be Proud Spell.  She had a fantastic season all around.  More starts, more money, but yeah, it is a shame she didn't run in the Ladies Classic.

It's also worth mentioning that Proud Spell had the trip from hell in the Mother Goose (cut up in the gate, broke badly, forced to check up).  With both Proud Spell and Music Note getting clean trips in the Alabama, I think Proud Spell proved she's the better filly.

Either one would be a good choice although I think Goldikove is better than both. All three along with Raven's Pass could be in consideration for HOY right behind Curlin and Zenyatta although they will probably finish well behind.

I give Music Note a huge break just like Curlin for showing up at the Breeders Cup and running over a surface neither liked but putting in a great effort. That should not be counted against either one. That being said, I am not one that believes you have to run in a Breeders Cup race for top considerations unless you are a 3yr old who is unproven against the best older horses out there. Here it becomes neccessary to run and win to prove you belong with top G1 older horses and aren't just better than the rest of your class.

Five really fine 3YO fillies: Goldikova, Eight Belles, Proud Spell, Music Note, Indian Blessing. Eight Belles and Music Note ran their best races in defeat. Both the 3YO and 4&up F/M divisions had terrific contenders at the top, but no depth of field. Music Note beat exactly two 3YO fillies of any note, Proud Spell and Little Belle. Most of the so-called Grade 1 New York filly races in both divisions were ridiculous--short fields with one or two quality entries facing allowance fillies. If we have to choose between Proud Spell and Music Note, Proud Spell is this year's Farda Amiga, who took the Eclipse because she won the Oaks and the Alabama.

At least Music Note and the fine 4YO Cocoa Beach are going to race next year. Would love to see Proud Spell and Indian Blessing back next year. Little Belle has been retired--physical problems or the usual premature retirement?

I have to give my pretend vote to Proud Spell. She was one of my faves this year and I was hoping to see her and Eight Belles in the Derby. I reluctantly agree that EB is really not in consideration for the Eclipse, it makes me sad to think of what could've been. Also I think Indian Blessing will be in contention for both awards, there is no rule against that. And someone metioned Cocoa Beach being a 3 y/o, I thought so too, but she is South American bred so I'm not sure if she counts as 3 or 4. Jason??

If I had a vote, I'd give it to Musice Note.

My reasons vary, but honestly, the biggest is just a from the gut she's damn good. Not that Proud Spell isn't -- I just thought Music Note was better.

Just wanted to note the number of incredible fillies in this last year:  Goldikova, Rags to Riches both beat males in GI races, Eight Belles defeated 18 of 19 in one, Zenyatta went undefeated. Not to mention Indian Blessing, Music Note, Proud Spell and Ginger Punch.

The ladies have it going on!

Music Note. Okay,shes been beaten,but look who she was 3 and 2nd behind. Really,Proud Spell-with the exception of being beaten my Music Note was beaten by bad horses. I also think Indian Blessing should show up as a candidate

Well dray, i'll have to look the sliding track thing up, seriously, cause i haven't seen it. Two i already mentioned the mother goose, stating that even in a small field, proud spell ran into trouble, while Music note had clear sailing. The race i judge is the alabama, when both had clean trips and were able to fire their best shots, and thats were proud spell won. Now honestly believe it or not i like music note better, and think she has more god given talent, but i also think proud spell has done more this year, and deserves the award based on overall body work.

What? the trainer said she was sliding on the track? This fella has more excuses for his faves than carter has liver pills. Besides, what does a trainer know?

They're all dumb, liars, unneccessary and everything else he's said negative about them for the last 6 months.

To me it's between Proud Spell and Indian Blessing. I saw the Distaff and Zenyatta blew past MN like she wasn't even in the race.

Jason, just now getting back to your retort. Hopefully you asked Larry Jones if he thinks that 8 belles was the best filly in the country. He is such a humble man he probably won't admit it. I know that 8 Belles was not a champion. But her wins at Oaklawn were just devestating. Her potential was something to think about, at that time. But Larry's number two filly will win the voting.

I choose Proud Spell by a nose but it is certainly a close call to me.  I also think Goldikova was awesome but because she only ran once race here and is not based here I don't believe she should be considered. I did read that she is a contender for the Cartier Award  though which makes sense. These are awards for the "American" horses and even if they are bred here (like the colts), if they don't race here at least the majority of the time and aren't based here, they should NOT be eligible for consideration!  I also don't believe a win in the Breeder's Cup should decide the championship, unless the winning horse was the overall most accomplished for the year and that race was the icing on the cake.

LDP I DON'T know if Proud Spell runs with Zen--THAT'S my point! I only KNOW that Music Note CAN....And, gee whiz, I only thought The Breeders Cup is the championship day--not the end-all---But I believe there needs to be some kind of championship day--Music Note DID show up--Credit is DUE her for that! Taking NOTHING away from Proud Spell--Music Note showed up and competed...Godolphin should be rewarded for their trip West--Rewarded with The Eclipse/which I believe they deserve....

Rechelle the thing is, you HAVE to take into consideration Team Proud Spell's inability to make The BC in top form---Otherwise there is no championship day/ no way to judge a total season...At the VERY least, you'd have to give Music Note her kudos for her (obvious) class/talent/toughness to have made it to The Classic v the very best....I believe the benefit of the doubt should go to Music Note, noting the superior level of the filly/mare division this year! Proud Spell is certainly deserving--but so is Music Note and she made it to the big race/represented!

Lots of comments about "who liked" and "who didn't like" the Pro-Ride.....I thout the best filly/mares ran 1-2-3 in Ladies Classic....I thought the best sprinters ran 1-2 in BOTH sprints....I thought the best 2y/olds won their races as well, and as far as The Classic, Curlin IS the best horse but he was poorly prepared in my opinion---also the Euros were legit! In other words, it SURE SEEMED like the best horses won in BC...but the Pro Ride sure makes for some pat excuses, and thats ok too....I don't care what track they run on, I wouldn't bet on Ginger Punch/Hystericalady beating Zenyatta/Cocoa Beach/Music Note and if Zenyatta runs next year those three will be most dominanting! I hope Zenyatta runs and too bad The BC isn't back East cuz they need a chance to see this freak--She runs in "her own" races and always blows by them---time will only strengthen her legend/enjoy this while you can cuz I don't think people really appreciate the "bizairre--ness" that is Zenyatta.....

Music Note!

First of all,she didn't race earlier in the year because she's a late developer,while Proud Spell had a full year worth of racing experience behind her..Indian Blessing? no way! she's strictly a sprinter.

Head-to-Head: Music Note vs. Proud Spell...

Mother Goose: Proud Spell breaks poorly,while Music Note goes to her nose AND LOSES 3 of her shoes,thats right,she easily wins with ONLY 1 shoe at the finish.(according to post-race reports/connections)..Advantage:Music Note...and Big Brown can't handle a Loose shoe in the Belmont? lol...anyways.

Alabama: both seem to have good trips,Proud Spell wins by a nose..Advantage:Proud Spell(barely).

Yes,Proud Spell won the Ky.Oaks,But,you have to take notice that Music Note WON more Gr.1 races..It's not Music Note's fault that some of her wins were against short fields.It's a known fact that the competition weren't willing to face her and get trounced.While the connections of Proud Spell went after the bigger purses,lesser competition(Del.Oaks Gr.2,this according to Larry Jones).

And...Music Note DID show-up for the Big Dance,didn't she?..bottom line; if these 2 Great Fillies faced each other 10 times,I would think Music Note takes 8 of them,impressively!

Matt, not to go back to Curlin, but you and most of you people who say Curlin should not be rewarded for his travel are being hypocritical. You can't have it both ways, you can't give horse an advantage, cause they traveled, and took risks, and not the other. Two Proud spell already was know for her distain for the synthetics, and had stated before the BC that they would not be there. Now again i am very unbiased towards this, in a way. I like Music note better, but think Proud spell had done more, and deserves the award more. She did in fact win the Alabama and the KyY Oaks, the filly versions of the travers and KY Derby. A third to Zen on the Pro ride is good, but not good enough to vault her past a filly that won the two most prestigous races for three year old fillies

Totally could not agree more.

Well said Matthew but before I crown Zanyetta Queen I want to see her beat Music Note on dirt.  She is a head bob away from perfect on dirt.

Matthew, you need to consider that one of Music Note's 4 wins was an ALLOWANCE race this season.  All of Proud Spell's races were G1 or G2 races, her victories were G1 or G2, she ran against tougher competition herself and was not pointed to the BC Ladies Classic at all, due to the surface and Jones not wanting to run her on it.  Music Note is a very good filly, and very talented, but her allowance win hurts her more than it helps her.  You can't call the field that was at the BC Ladies Classic a tough field when Hystericalady & Ginger Punch both detested the surface, plus they were not the same horses they were a year ago.  Ginger Punch hadn't looked the same all season.  If Music Note could've come in second, then yes, she'd have a better shot at 3yo filly, but she came in third, which also hurt her.  The only time Music Note beat Proud Spell, she was ridden extremely poorly by the jockey to the point that Proud Spell was dq'd from 2nd to 3rd because of interfering with another horse.  If Proud Spell could've had her normal race, I honestly believe she would've beaten Music Note.  As good as Music Note is, Proud Spell is better.

Slew.em.All I hate to disappoint you but Music Note is not a late developer, she ran as a 2yo.  She ran 10.14.07 in a maiden, came in 4th.  She ran again in a maiden on 11.1.07 and won.  She was then given a lay off until May when she was placed in an allowance.  Proud Spell ran 8 races this season, all of them graded stakes races, won 2 grade ones, won 2 grade twos, came in second in one grade and one grade 3 races, then third in two grade ones.  Proud Spell had the harder season, running a race a month and ducking NO ONE.  If they entered Music Note in an allowance race 3 weeks after the Kentucky Oaks, she should've been in the Oaks.  They did not believe at that time she had the TALENT to do well, so they ducked it.  

Tell me, who did Music Note beat in the Coaching Club American Oaks?  Who did Music Note beat in the Gazelle?  The answer ... NO ONE.  She could only beat Proud Spell when Proud Spell was ridden extremely poorly by the jockey.  Music Note meets some quality horses and loses (Proud Spell at the Alabama, Zenyatta & Cocoa Beach at the BC Ladies Classic).  So really, she didn't beat anyone except in one race where the dominant 3yo filly had a bad race.

Now Dray, me and you agree, i want to see who is the better horse on dirt Zen or Music Note. That would be a heckuva race to watch.

Rechelle:  Music Note crushed Proud Spell and the ONLY reason she got headed by Proud Spell in the Alabama is because the splits were very very very slow and had to cirle 4 wide and run at her off those fractions.  Music Note Beat some very good older horses ... why don't you name all the G1 winning older horses Proud Spell beat this year.... Coming into the Breeders Cup Music Note won 4 out of 5 and 3 out of 4 G1 races.  A much better record than Proud Spell. The best win most of their races and Proud Spell this year did not win most of her races.  Music Note wins.

Draynay, who did Music Note beat????  Really???  Proud Spell beat Music Note, Proud Spell beat Indian Blessing.  WHO did Music Note beat???? Don't put the BC Ladies Classic up when Ginger Punch & Hystericalady were not at their best, hated the track and have not been the same horses this season as they were last.  Music Note may not have liked the Pro Ride, but she didn't detest it the way Ginger Punch & Hystericalady did.  Proud Spell beat Indian Blessing & Music Note.  Music Note beat Proud Spell and no one else at their top form.  She was BEATEN by Cocoa Beach and Zenyatta.  She won ONE allowance race and 3 G1's against, 2 of those Grade 1's were against NO ONE.  She beat NO ONE in the BC Ladies Classic who ran their best race.  Ginger Punch hadn't looked good all season, not like she has in the past. Ginger Punch honestly hadn't run well since July.  

Hystericalady hadn't run well all season either, her wins were Grade 2 or Grade 3, her Grade 1 races were the ones she lost in.  

So again, tell me, WHO did Music Note beat???

Music Note as Jason said didn't start in a graded stakes until after Proud Spell won THE most important 3 year old filly race, The KY Oaks.

Music Note ONLY ran in NY around 1 turn on the dirt, until she ran in the Breeders Cup. The others were all running for runner up money to Zenyatta and several others who finished behind Music Note had been beaten up by Zenyatta all year so I think they had a tougher campaign as well.

Proud Spell ran in ALL Graded stakes, nothing else. She ran ALL over the country, she ran on dirt and synthetic. She didn't like the synthetic but the long hard campaign was why Mr. Jones said he didn't send her to the BC as well as the surface, two factors not just one.

I think Zenyatta's performance in the Apple Blossom proved she could beat any of the females on the dirt.

Proud Spell beat Indian Blessing at the FG Oaks.

ALL of Music Note's wins came at Belmont Park. NOW I think if she was to be nominated 3 year old filly of Belmont Park, she'd win hands down.

3y.o. Filly of the Year Eclipse award, seems like most of the people who actually vote and are putting their picks out on the internet and in articles are going with Proud Spell, not just Jason.

I was just watching TVG and even though the weather is rainy, Aqueduct looks like there isn't a single person there. Maybe some of you could actually go support the sport in person, spend less time writing on blogs? I'm on my way to CD my classes are over for the day and I work later tonight, muddy here too. Tomorrow, will be there after classes, before work and it's supposed to rain.

Get out and support racing.

Rechelle--Sorry, but looking at the history of the Eclipse one race does make a champion.  That's not my opinion, look at the winners of past Eclipses.

Who do you think will win the Eclipse for turf male this year?  Barring a win in Hong Kong by Kip Deville, I would hazard a guess that the favorite would be Conduit. (Anyone on the board want to chat about this division?).

Miesque raced in the US a total of 2 times. That's t-w-o.  She won Eclipses both times. Oh yeah, she was also elected the NATIONAL Hall of Fame of Racing.  Off of two races in the US!!!!!!!!!!  

Its not about quantity..but quality.

I think both were good this year, but I have to give the edge to Proud Spell. She dodged nobody and raced well all year long. She's really fun to watch, and I can't wait to see her run again next year.

Rechelle,

Good luck getting him to answer your questions. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did, because he never answered mine in another blog.

Melissa,

That's because he doesn't have an answer.  I saw the other blogs you're mentioning and he's like a dog with a bone, just won't give up even when proven wrong.  

I maintain it should be Proud Spell for the 3yo filly simply because she ran more, she ran better, she ran all graded stakes and she beat them, including Music Note.  Music Note's one defeat of Proud Spell, but never having beaten anyone else, is what will hurt her chance at the award.

Obviously, I think either one of these fillies are extremely talented and deserving of the award.  I just think Proud Spell stepped up a bit more to win this award.

Dray, we have said it till we are blue in the face, the only reason music note beat proud spell in the mother goose is because of how nasty a trip and how bad a ride proud spell got. The point is that when both had clean trips music note dispite given every chace during the stretch of the Alabama, could not get past proud spell. Music note had every possibility during that race in the stretch, had plenty of girt, plenty of energy, but just couldn't get by, plain and simple. I will say neither beat really fantastic horses, but proud spell did have a much tougher season, competing in better races. One of Music note's wins was an allowence, you can't count that in the race for three year old filly. Also most or all her wins came in NY, you must take into consideration that Proud Spell could take her game on the road and still win. Proud spell has a better resume due to her body work over the year. Was Music note brilliant, yes, could she get top older mare next year, most certainly, but she does not have the body work of proud spell, who will get the award.

proud spell all the way!!she is the toughest filly out there!she did indeed lose to music note due to a really bad ride..otherwise she would have won the mother goose.she won the biggie for fillies on oaks day!how can anyone could say she didn't beat quality horses?she had a tough year and was never pointed to the breeders cup.a lot of horses did not go west due to the question of how they would run on the undirt

music note easily wins over proud spell because she showed up for the championship against older horses was beaten by zenyatta who would have won the classic against the boys she carriage trail who ran the fastest time by f/m her race before bc/ginger punch n hyst lady jus to name g1 winners no other 3yr old matches that record she has to win award

sorry but i disagree..proud spell would have beaten her twice but for a very bad ride from gabe..music note is a great horse too but she hasn't won outside of n.y.proud spell has raced against the best all over all year long

Well Bahamas, Music note didn't win the Distaff. Also if i recall correctly, proud spell won both the alabama and KD Oaks, i guess those grade 1's don't have any meaning now. Also just because Music note showed up the to BC does not mean she should get best three year old filly. With Proud spell they already knew the filly hated synthetics, so why run your horse on a surface they hate and watch them loose? With Music note you at least had the hope that she may handle it, since she'd never raced over synthetics before. Over the year Proud spell has done more, winning better races. All her races were Grade 2 or 1's, and total she raced 8 times, winning 4 running second in 2 and third in 2, and honesly she should've only had one third place finish, since her DQ in the mother goose was the worst call made this year. She won against indian blessing in the FG Oaks, got third over synthetics, came back and won the KY Oaks, and went on to race like four more times. Music note raced only six times, winning four times, one was an allowence win. She race then a second and third. When second she was beaten by Proud spell. In that race Music Note had every chance to run by Proud Spell, but could't do it. Music note didn't run out of ground or energy, she was running her heart out and still could not get by a slightly grittier Proud spell. She ran her third in the Distaff, but the horses she beat, HL and GP, were not at their best. HL hates synthetics, and GP has been going down hill and hates synthetics, so honestly in the distaff what she beat was not all that much. The race for three year old filly is close, but proud spell will get the nod.

LDP I'm NOT saying Curlin "shouldn't be rewarded for traveling West"---I'm saying Curlin shouldn't be rewarded for finishing 4th---while Music Note SHOULD be rewarded for her race vs Zenyatta/Cocoa Beach! The difference is Curlin was EXPECTED to win and Music Note WAS NOT---If Zenyatta races in 09, maybe an Eastern dirt track can beef up the purse for a real good bunch of mares! Fillies run for $$ as their breeding value is set--why not invite Team Zen--SHOW THEM THE $$$--and show the fans of The Empire State something truly special...fact is I kinda wanna see her on dirt again, too....I just wanna see her again, period!

Rechelle: why do u think Music Note made her 1st lifetime start in Oct.07'?...and 1st start this year in May?...because SHE's a late developer,like most of the AP Indy offspring are...And she's Only going to get better with age,unlike Proud Spell,who has reached her peak...and who enters their Filly in the Oaks off a 6 month lay-off?..you probably will,because with that ridiculous statement about "if they entered Music Note in an allowance race 3 weeks after the Ky.Oaks,she should've been in the Oaks.They did not believe at the time that she had the Talent to do well,so they ducked it",just proves your lack of horse racing knowledge.she obviously wasn't ready to run at the time,it wasn't because she lacked Talent.That allowance race was a tightener to get her ready for the Big Races,in which she excelled at,so it's wrong to hold that against her considering that's the next logical step after horses break their maiden...and People!STOP using that lame excuse about Proud Spell's bad ride. Do you not know that Music Note had the worst trip of all.She went to her nose at the break,raced 4/5 wide til' the far turn,lost 3 of her shoes and STILL cruised to an easy win in the Mother Goose.

And...for Once I agree with Draynay; good horses ARE supposed to win the Majority of their races,NOT half of em',like Proud Spell did!..and look who she lost too,not including Music Note..Indian Blessing is good,but she's a sprinter...Like I mentioned earlier,it's not Music Note's fault that trainers were too scared to enter their horses against her.All of her wins were won by daylight.That's a mark of a Brilliant/Talented Thoroughbred there...Bottom line is: Music Note was feared,hence the small fields when she ran,while full fields lined-up to face Proud spell.Music Note's bang-up 3rd to 2 Older/Talented Distaffers in the BC,on a foreign surface also,just shows how Great she Really Is...Plus,she'll be even better next year!

Rechelle when you say "Who did Music Note beat?" The problem is, you'll just say "She didn't like the track" or "She had a bad trip"--so why bother? Proud Spell had a worthy year--I just think Music Note will/should win based on The BC...Some horses (actually many!) didn't like the sticky slop at Monmouth last year---but the winners got the spoils there--not the horses that couldn't handle it...same should go for Pro Ride allready! Didn't handle it? Maybe, but horses that "don't handle it" also don't win Eclipse Awards--nor should they--"Woulda/Shoulda" should not be a determining factor in voting for The Champ--Music Note HAD to come West to make up for that nose loss at Saratoga---I believe she did....

Dray I'd love to see Zenyatta/Music Note/Cocoa Beach at Belmont---They'll have to jack up the purse to a mil or more (!!) but I'd love to see Zen at Belmont, are you kidding me? Coming down the middle of the track, looking like Forego...yeah, Belmont and Zenyatta look like they were MADE for each other!

Definitely Music Note.  She had more grade 1 wins in fewer starts; she showed up for the BC and ran well against a very tough field.  Proud Spell was sound - she should have been there.  That's ducking the competition.  Beating older fillies Hysterical Lady and Ginger Punch more impressive than besting 3 yo sprinter Indian Blessing.

Proud Spell gets the edge. They are both great fillies though.

Music Note never WON a race at any track OTHER than BELMOMT in 08 and only other win in 07 at Aqueduct talk about a 1 trick pony.

Music Note was a late developer ran no races outside of NY until the BC.

Proud Spell was a tired horse by BC, as were Ginger Punch, Hysterical Lady. Those two had been run off their feet in every match up with Zenyatta.

Once again here we are hoping it's over soon so we can move on. Then you can all look it up in a couple years to remind you who won it.

Question, how many of you even watch the event or attend it? Do you just read the results? If it's the latter then real dedication to and interest in the subject at hand.

Matthew, Music Note ran in NY all year, whereas Proud Spell ran over different tracks in different states in different conditions.  Proud Spell never ran a single race that was not a graded stakes race, Music Note ran an allowance.  Proud Spell beat better horses, ran a harder season and since she had shown a dislike to synthetics, even if they didn't decide to let her rest, she would not have been at the Breeders Cup, according to her trainer Larry Jones.  Jones believed she had done enough by beating Music Note to cinch the 3yo filly and I think he's right.  He ought to know, since he is a trainer, if she needed to do more to win it.  

Music Note didn't do anything spectacular at the BC Ladies Classic.  She didn't beat any horse that was at their best and was beat by Cocoa Beach, who had only won 2 races this season, including a non graded race and who only showed up at the Breeders Cup because she won the Beldame.  Come on, Music Note was BEATEN by a champion older filly and a NOBODY.  She doesn't deserve 3yo filly.  She didn't do enough.

Like I posted earlier, it could go to either filly and I think no great injustice would have been done, but seeing a lot of the banter about one or other other, I look at Music Note's accomplishments this way (which is why emotionally, I lean her way) - she won her 3 G1s that Proud Spell could have easily entered too, but instead, her connections chose to run her in the Delaware Oaks (Rechelle, before you talk about it not being all about the cash, check out the purse for the DE Oaks, and the Cotillion (see previous comment). The stakes schedules are printed well in advance for everyone to see, and Proud Spell's owners could have gone for the G1s that went to Music Note, but chose not to. They could have skipped the Cotillion and run back in the Gazelle to give PS more time to the Distaff, but they didn't. As for who exactly Music Note beat in the Distaff, you can't discount HL or GP - they still accomplished great things this year, and when I was a kid growing up in the 70s, watching Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Alydar, Spectacular Bid, John Henry, etc, I always heard that the great ones didn't need to carry their track around with them, so let's stop the talk about track preferences. Although I believe that PS will end up with the Eclipse, if her connections really never intended to go to the Distaff (which obviously they didn't), then they did a disservice to their filly by keeping her out of the 3 G1s that Music Note won. After all, if PS had won just one more of those races, we might not even be having this blog thread. The road to the 3YO filly championship shouldn't come down to the DE Oaks and the Cotillion. Again, no surprise or bellyaching from me if PS wins - she accomplished a lot this season. Let's hope she's not prematurely retired.

BSinBoots, It's not very impressive to beat competition who either over the hill or detest the surface. Music note did not have as hard a season as Proud Spell, and Music note did not win any races that were of the importace that Proud spell did. By this i mean the two most important races for 3yr old fillies belong to Proud Spell, The KY Oaks and the Alabama, the Filly versions of the KY Derby and Travers. Proud Spell has WON the two most important races for her division, so she will win her division.

Music Note finished third, you can't do that, Curlin should't have been expected to win, since he had never raced over the surface, like music note. Also, who did Curlin finish forth to? RP and Henry, much better horses then Zen. My point is that if your going to reward one horse for doing something a certain kind of way, you should reward the others that do it that way too, not just one.

Slewemall, Honesthly i think it is better to lose three shoes rather than run with a loose shoe or completely lose one. I think since most of their feet are lower to the ground if gives them more balence, then sitting up an inch on three feet and trying to balence, so i honestly don't look a that as two bad of a disaster. Racing four or five wide aint so bad either, you in the clear, and if you have a horse to do it with then darn you just won yourself a race. Proud spell had the worst trip period.

Rechelle its really very simple... Music Note never lost to anything but a G1 winner... not true for Proud Spell she lost to average horses... Most important Music Note won most of her races and 3 G1 races.

Proud Spell did not win most of her races and lost as often as she won... that is not good enough to win 3 year old filly champion.

In her 3 G1 wins Music Note won by 23 lengths a margin unheard of in filly G1 races.

Is the point/counterpoint? Whatever Jason selects, Draynay is here as the contrarian with no legitimate argument.

Put Music Note in any race outside of NY and the same thing that happened in the BC happens to her.

Put her in any race this year outside of Belmont and what happened at Saratoga, happens.

UMMM weren't you the same guy who was arguing that Zenyatta never won a race outside California or on a surface other than synthetic, when in actuality she won a Graded Stakes race in Arkansas on the dirt?

Ummm, weren't you the guy who presented the argument that another HOY candidate didn't deserve it because he never won a race on anything but dirt?

Well then your selection should be eliminated based,not on our criteria, but your own.

Your arguments sure change to support your point of view, no consistency, like the horses you support. When someone pins you down on a specific point you attack or bring up some inane statistic.

Okay you've repeated your story about Music Note 7 times, we've got your opinion, noted and ignored.

Rod, the connections to Proud Spell were looking more to prove her dominance over different tracks instead of being a one state horse like Music Note is.  Out of 8 races, she ran 2 at Fair Grounds, 1 at Keeneland, 1 at Churchill Downs, 1 at Belmont Park, 1 at Delaware Park, 1 at Saratoga & 1 at Philadelphia Park.  We're talking about 7 tracks in 4 different states.  

Music Note, on the other hand ran her season in NY, either at Belmont or Saratoga.  That makes her a one state horse since she left the state for California and lost, beating again no one in top form.  Music Note has not done enough to upset Proud Spell, not when Proud Spell one the two most prestigious and important races for 3yo fillies, the KY Oaks and the Alabama, as well as defeated the 2yo filly of last season, Indian Blessing.  And you can't say Indian Blessing is a sprinter only, having won the 1 1/16 mile BC Juvenile Fillies last year and she has shown to be a miler and the extra 16th of a mile isn't going to be enough for her to be beat by an inferior horse.  Indian Blessing is great from 6.5 furlongs to a 8.5 furlongs.  The race Proud Spell beat Indian Blessing in was 8.5 furlongs, which is easily in Indian Blessings ability.

Alex JH: so, what your saying is that Music Note can't win anywhere but in New York/Belmont Park?....Foolish!

Slew.em.All, how is that foolish when it's proven??  She lost at Saratoga and she lost outside New York at Santa Anita.  Yet she won pretty continually at Belmont.  She is a one track horse and she needs to run and WIN elsewhere in order to (A) prove otherwise and (B) win the Eclipse!

Rechelle Music Note loses to Zenyatta so she "can't win" in SoCal?...Loses by nose to Proud Spell so she cannot win at Saratoga?...Yes all she raced at were Saratoga/Belmont/Santa Anita...That's the "Big Three" in my book...Yes it's possible Proud Spell finishes in the money at Santa Anita---It's also a fact Music Note did....

Slewemall, how is it foolish? Untill proven otherwise it's true, though very talented and brilliant, Music not has not show the ability to run outside NY. You are the foolish one because you ignore all the facts.

Slew.em.All,

No I'm not SAYING that she can't. I'm REPORTING the FACT that to date, this year, she HAS NOT won a race on any other track, ONLY wins have come AT BELMONT. No exageration, no misquote, LOOK it up on the NTRA site.

4 wins in 08 including an allowance, all at Belmont one turn on the dirt. Saratoga, 2nd and Santa Anita 3rd. THAT is what happened and that is what I'm saying. Last year doesn't count into the equation, but her only win was at Aqueduct in a Maiden Special Weight.

Challenging the person who used a similar argument to prove his point about Zenyatta and Curlin, incorrectly in his case though.

Plus I thought this was about cold hard facts, not speculation and what ifs or probably could haves.

NOT Foolish at all when it's FACT.

Maybe foolish on your part not to review the FACTS before responding

Matt, the point is unfortunatly that music has not show the ability to win outside of NY, FYI, Saratoga is NY. Proud Spell had a much harder and more pressing campaign, racing in some of the our most prestigious races for three year old fillies, and the thing is she won the two most prestigous. Note one of those was in Music's favorite state. This filly, base on her body work, and the whole year, deserves, Champ three year old filly.

Street Sense won the two biggest races for three year olds--Kentucky Derby/Travers...but he HATED the Monmouth Mud in BC...so he should be the champ/not Curlin?? He finished 4th just like Curlin this year so he gets The Eclipse/not Curlin??? No, the winners get the spoils/all excuses aside cuz they're meaningless---The BC is the final proving ground! Ny/SoCal/BCup--THAT is where the best horses race in North America!

Matthew, the fact remains at the BC Ladies Classic she was beat by COCOA BEACH for crying out loud!  If Music Note would have come second, losing to Zenyatta, that'd be a different story but she was beaten by a horse with as little experience going into the BC as Big Brown did going into the KD.  And the fact STILL remains, she has never won on any track other than Belmont.  At this point, she's a one track pony.

Matthew, the Breeders Cup committee as well as the people who vote for the Eclipse already knew some of the top horses in the country were NOT going to the Breeders Cup because of the track and the surface.  Proud Spell was one of those and the only reason Curlin ran was because of pressure from the fans to face BB, who scratched due to an injury.  So this year and most likely next, the ENTIRE body of work has to be considered, not just the Breeders Cup.  OH WAIT, it already IS considered!  You act like the Breeders Cup is the end all of the Eclipse.  Doesn't matter what the rest of the season looked like, it matters how they did at ONE race?!?!?!  Would you have rather seen Proud Spell run on a surface that Larry Jones already knew she hated and risk a breaking down??  She was exhausted from running a race a month for 8 months, hard on any horse and a MUCH harder campaign then Music Note had and running her knowing how tired she was would've been foolish and dangerous.  Horses get hurt when they are forced to work if they aren't 100% ready.  

Alex JH: you SAID,if you put her in any race outside of NY she loses..NOW THAT's speculation.Just because she travelled once and finished 3rd to 2 Solid Fillies doesn't mean she can't win outside of NY.

And LDP: your the one that said,Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator are Much better horses than Zenyatta,on turf maybe?....rest my case!

"Put Music Note in any race outside of NY and the same thing that happened in the BC happens to her.

Put her in any race THIS YEAR outside of Belmont and what HAPPENED at Saratoga, happens."

Slew,

NO I DID NOT SAY IF I SAID WHEN, I said this is what HAPPENED when she was taken out of NEW YORK, not what may happen, if, whatever or maybe. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST YEAR. HISTORY, FACT.

If you're going to dispute me at least read what I posted. I said this was what happened in the PAST YEAR 2008........

So I'm not one to think the BC is the "be all end all" of racing, but its concept was to bring the best of the sport in each racing year together to decide the best of the best on the track.

Rechelle, I agree that in this day and age, a race a month for 8 months is probably as much as you can expect from the modern day thoroughbred, and again, I'll go on record as saying that I think PS would be a deserving Eclipse winner, but what gets me about her campaign is that her connections could have started her one month later in the year so that her last race of the year was in the Distaff, OR, if they knew ahead of time that they never intended to run her in the Distaff (which it sounds like they definitely knew), then they needed to get her additional G1 wins to bolster her claim to the title - like Mineshaft's connections did in 2003 when they purposely skipped the Classic. In that case, skip the DE Oaks and run back in the CCA Oaks, or skip the Cotillion and run back in the Gazelle - another G1 win in either of those races (likely over Music Note, one would have to assume) and suddenly, her case looks much more solid.

If you're BC-eligible, it just seems a bit unsportsmanlike to not bring a legitimate contender to the BC. After all, when it's been run on a traditional dirt track, how many times have we seen Europeans attempt the Classic?

Objectively, I really can see either filly winning with no injustice done. I just hope both come back next year to duke it out on the track.

One more thing, after seeing Cocoa Beach win the Beldame and then running a bang up second in the Distaff, I think we have to consider that she's got game and we have to look at her closely next year. I too was skeptical about her win in the Beldame, but after seeing her race in the Distaff, where she made Zenyatta run all the way down to the wire, I've started to reconsider my opinion of her.

Alex, Zen has not raced them, and i'd bet you on any surface, maybe other that dirt, those two horses would whip Zen. I also sure as the i'm standing here today, that if she race Zarkava, that Zen wouldn't have a prayer in the world. Until Zen proves she can race against top competion everywhere, and of every gender she is not as good as any of the horses mentioned above.

Sorry Alex, i meant that to be to Slewemall, like this post aswell. Slew it is not speculation, if it is proven, all her wins have come in NY, none outside. Until she proves otherwise, she is a one state horse.

Matt, Street Sence didn't take on older horses and win against them twice, like Curlin. SS lost in the Preakness to Curlin, who finished top three in all of the TC races. SS didn't even show in the Belmont. SS had lost his prep against HS coming into the Classic. SS also won the Derby, Tavers, Jim Dandy, and the TB Derby. HS finished in the money in all the TC races, won the lanes end, Won the beat SS in his prep for the classic. Curlin finishes top three in all TC races, wins the Rebel, AK Derby, JCGC. At this point the horses are all equal and the classic was that year the proving ground. The horse that got that win would lock up HOY, because of how tight it was to begin with, and Curlin won in style, proving he doesn't need a fast track and he can handle mud too. That is what seperated him from the rest. That is why he got HOY.

LDP you don't get my irony! What I'm saying is when you finish 4th in The Classic and make excuses like "he didn't like the track"--then you also have to say Street Sense is HOY! And Rechelle Cocoa Beach "for crying out loud?" Cocoa Beach has a fine record! Finally LDP--When you dis a horse like Zenyatta/who hasn't even been beaten that just proves my theory that you are way too biased! She'd have "no chance"? Dream on, my friend!

Rod, the other fact to consider with Music Note is she has NEVER won this season away from Belmont.  That also takes away from her deserving to win the 3yo Filly.  As for Proud Spell & the BC, I don't think they realized when they started the season how much Proud Spell detested artificial surfaces.  Proud Spell did enough this season to win 3yo Filly.  Music Note was beaten by an unproven filly in Cocoa Beach.  Yes, I agree Cocoa Beach may be great, but she may also be terrible, she wasn't racing very good fillies, the 2 best in that race were Zenyatta and Music Note and she lost to Zenyatta and beat Music Note.  That takes away from Music Note's bid for 3yo filly as well.  

As I said previously, Music Note's first race this season came 2 or 3 weeks after the Kentucky Oaks.  If the connections were planning her start in May, they should have ran the Kentucky Oaks and not an allowance race at Belmont.  Had she run and done well, even if she didn't beat Proud Spell, that'd have looked better than her first race being an allowance race on the only track she's ever won at this season.  She's not just a one state horse, she's a one TRACK horse, having lost at Saratoga.  That takes away her shot at 3yo filly in my opinion (which doesn't count in the final say of things).  

Matthew, Cocoa Beach has run 3 races *in the States*!!  I don't care about her record out of the country.  She ran 3 races total in the States.  She won the Love Sign which is what, an allowance?  It certainly isn't a graded or stakes race.  She won the Beldame and then beat Music Note in the Breeders Cup.  One grade stakes race does not make a fine record.  It either makes it luck or she'll be a great horse next season.  We'll see.  Fact remains, Music Note lost to an unproven filly on American soil.  

Matt

 I have dised nobody, i have nothing but respect for Zen, i just point out the facts of what both her and Curlin have done. Honestly last years classic i do not consider a freak show as much this years. My POV is that horses run in mud, it happens sometimes, and if you can handle it then more points to you, Curlin could, proving his versitlity on dirt. SS is a fantastic horse, but less versitle a horse on dirt than Curlin, Curlin gets the edge. This year man has make up a stupid synthetic track, to say they are doing a good thing for the sport, but really a good maintained dirt track is just as good or better than synthetics. My point last year was mother natures doing, which happens, horses have to deal with it at times, but some dumb man made surface that is basicly brown turf, no. The greats didn't have to be great to win on synthetics, or turf. All they needed to do is prove on gods good dirt, or turf either one, that they could take their game on the road and run on soft, fast, firm, good, muddy, or sloppy. They didn't have to race on every surface to be considered great.

 O, and i rememeber when i did get kinda nasty bout Zen, i am sorry. I get kinda mad when i read all the people dising the horse i have supported ever since i first saw him race (the rebel). I know two rights don't make a wrong, but before you do tell me i'm being rude and bias, look at what some other people put up against Curlin, that are for BB or Zen, and you can see why i get so fired up.

I'm saying her 3rd place in Ladies Classic was good enough for 3yo filly of the year---Just like Curlin's 4th place fin is good enough for Older horse  of year--I don't see any inconsistency in that---to say if Music Note gete filly award then Curlin gets HOY---thats just skewed logic! Curlin got his last year on a track most horses didn't handle---I had no arguments then and I want no excuses this year--thats all I'm saying....

Curlin will get older horse of the year because of his consistent beating of others before the BC. Matt it rains sometimes, and we can either run our horses on it or not, but mud is a natural surface, the synthetic crap is not. We should not call a race a championship race, if the surface is pretty much untested. Mud isn't untested, it's wet dirt. HOY has always been decided on dirt, whether it's been on mud or a fast track, it's been on dirt. Now were going to change it all of a sudden and say it's going on synthetics??? no you can't do that it's down right stupid. Half the horses didn't even show up, look at proud spell and commentator. Those horses would've shown on Cup day had it been run on dirt, rain or shine. You want to decide a HOY the deciding race on a natural, not man made, surface.

Rechelle Cocoa Beach won Beldame in her 2nd start in states/on a wet-fast speed favoring track---I'd say that AND her subsequent 2nd to Zenyatta makes her WAY LEGIT!! Instead of "penalizing" her for too few starts, wonder aloud how many fillies can win Beldame in her 2nd start! And LDP saying Zenyatta has "no chance" sounds like a dis to me but thats just me!

LDP have you gone "back" to the form charts? I did, and I'll admit I was lacking in my handicapping skills---My exacta was Curlin--Tiago....But Henrythenavigator was even money vs Goldikove in an 11 horse field just seven weeks before BCup/Ravens Pass was right there v Henry--They were both the class of English Racing 3yolds!! And Euros were strong this year! Team Curlin waffled too long and they were outcoached! That's my opinion--if thety do their homework (instead of beating up on Wanderin Boy) Curlins a two time HOY!

LDP Yes but you'll NEVER hear me dis Curlin--Indeed, I threw back Drays disses of "The Big C" EVEN THOUGH I agreed with him as to Big Brown's superiority! But you cannot watch Curlin and NOT percieve greatness! Curlin has old time stamina/no doubt about it, and he'll quickly rise to the top in Kentucky breeding circles, God willing! When I tout Zenyatta for HOY/Big Brown as best since 'Bid---In no way am I dissing Curlin! I love Curlin and all he represents!

Rechelle: again I ask,...WHO runs their horse in the KY.Oaks,1st start of the year after a 6 month lay-off?..NOBODY if they know what their doing!..So don't hold THAT allowance race against her,it was the next logical race for her after breaking her maiden in Nov.07'..and look at the Gr.1 races she dominated after her "prep".

Music Note "lost to an unproven filly on American soil"..What?..Cocoa Beach had just beaten Ginger Punch in the Gr.1 Beldame,so that classifies her as a Proven Horse,I think.

Proud Spell is a Solid Filly,but she ONLY won half of her races,and LOST to Gr.2/3 type fillies in the process.These same horses that PS lost to,MN would've Destroyed em',period!..All in All look at their record this year: Music Note's only blemishes are a scant nose defeat to Proud Spell,and a Solid 3rd to 2 Solid Filles(outside of NY,too).While Proud Spell had numerous losses to less than stellar competition..please don't mention the sprinter Indian Blessing.

Matt, i never meant to dis anyone. Just get mad at some of the comments made about him, and sometimes loose my temper and don't read what i type. Zen is spectacular, i do agree with you there, BB well lets agree to disagree, K. Curlin has gotten me excited like no other horse has, not even Bernardini or Barbaro, and my heart broke for both, once when Barbaro broke down and the other when Bernardini lost his Classic. Now it breaks into peices, now that they are going to retire Curlin. You have no idea how much i loved watching him run, and how under appricated i think he was by many. I will miss him greatly, and wish so much they'd give him one more year.

Matt, i am sorry, but i don't use any of the tools most of you people do for handicapping, just what i know about horses. So please don't laugh when i ask, but what do you mean by did i go "back" and look at the form charts. In answer no i didn't.

Matthew, who did Cocoa Beach beat, really?  A Ginger Punch who was on her downslide?  Who else?  Really, Cocoa Beach had NO competition in that race.  By that point, Ginger Punch was showing that she was not the same horse she was last season, which is absolutely no disrespect to her, since I love her & think she's a fabolous mare, but one who was past her peak.  So yeah, Cocoa Beach won it but against WHO?  

LDP the slop at Monmouth was natural (organic) vs The Pro Ride of this year's Cup--But no way was it a more fair track simply because it was natural! And YES they DID run championship races on "that crap"! And YES that's why they sent out the best Euros--In recent years The Breeders Cup has been hard-challenged by Dubai World Cup---BECAUSE of Pro Ride, this years Breeders Cup was a GRAND SLAM over anything they've had in UAE---You make excuses over excuses because of Pro Ride yet you just seem to brush aside any excuses for last years sticky mud at Monmouth! That tells me there's no arguing with you about that and thats sad, cuz synthetics are here to stay---and I'm a fellow Curlin Lover!!!

Rechelle Ginger Punch won a string of GR 1's this year/lost by a nose to Cocoa Beach...Yeah she was sure showing signs of decline---NOT! Her four races leading up to THIS YEARS CUP were better than her form LAST YEAR!! Cocoa Beach is a monster! Practically unbeaten v tough competition! I hope to see her next year!

Matt, i don't think the Synthetics affected him as much as many do, i just plain hate synthetic, because of the plain and simple fact that a properly maintained dirt track is just as good or better than a synthetic. I also think that synthetics are a cover up, for what has happened to the breed. Because we breed for speed, not soundness and endurence, give our horses steroids, has greatly weakened the breed. I think if we correct all that then their is no need for a new surface. No other champion of the past has had to run on synthetics, though they have on mud. My point about the championships being held in slop last year, was that we humans have no control over that, but over synthetics we do. Last year normally the horse that deserved to win did, i don't think that happened so much this year. When i say the horse that deserved to win i mean somewhere in the top four favorites. For instance indian blessing, war pass, english channel was well favored, and so was Curlin. Corinthian had a good shot, Midnight Lute won too, the list goes on and on. I'm not saying the horse behind them were in perfect order, but the ones who were supposed to win or had a legit shot at winning did, this year i didn't see that. You can differ with me if you want i'm open to your opinion.

Between these 2, its tough, but I agree with choosing Proud Spell. But I REALLY think Eight Belles should win or at least be nominated. I mean, she got second in the KENTUCKY DERBY! That has to be equal to or, actually, EVEN BETTER than winning the Oaks. She beat EIGHTEEN COLTS, and lost to Big Brown, THREE-YEAR-OLD-COLT-OF-THE-YEAR!!! Indian Blessing should also be a candidate for her amazing season, including racing against older horses.